I think there’s a big difference between tryharding in vanilla wow vs tryharding in most pvp focused games. Most people who pvp in vanilla are going to have very little desire to tryhard since there’s no reward for it. If I catch some guy in a BG/World Pvp and I have the option of using a FAP and killing him or not using a FAP and possibly dying, well if FAPs were free obviously I’d use one but they cost gold and now I have to determine if the amount of gold for the FAP is worth the “glory” I get by killing this person. Of course, in serious pvp I think the glory of winning outweighs these gold costs plus most serious pvpers are loaded with gold since they play the game a ton and are in the devilsaur mafia. However, from the average player’s perspective, it might not seem worth it to use a consume when you have a limited amount of gold to be a “better” pvper. In a lot of ways vanilla wow pvp feels P2W, instead of paying with real money you pay with gold for consumes/time to grind gear from raids/ranks. That isn’t the say that there’s no skill in vanilla wow there certainly is but there’s skill in a lot of P2W games too, however people usually don’t like P2W games since you have to spend money to compete at the highest level. Let’s say If you are doing premades and the other team decides to all use flask of titans are you a “scrub” for not using flask of titans too? What if they all are using Arcane Bombs too? There comes a point where the idea of using consumes to compete just makes the game stupid. There’s a reason all these consumes are not allowed in arenas, blizzard didn’t want their pvp system to be so heavily influenced by who can farm gold/consumes in order to compete. I remember when Nost relaunched with Elysium and Monkeynews was streaming a premade vs premade with NOPE players vs Emphasis players. Everyone was full consuming, and the game was like 3 hours long since at that point it’s so difficult to return flags. I think the NOPE players ended up AFKing out since the game was essentially a stalemate. My point is there’s a certain threshold where consumes can make the game extremely unbalanced and unrewarding, where this threshold lies is subjective, everyone has their own opinions on what consumes are reasonable to use and which are unreasonable. Now I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with people who want to spend gold to have an edge in pvp. It’s totally within the boundaries of the game but don’t act like this guy’s book is referring to vanilla wow pvp. From your paraphrasing he seems to be talking more inline with games where each player has equal footing and you are a scrub if you decide to not learn the best strategies to win and make use of those strategies/mechanics of the game, which I totally agree with. If a player doesn’t want to spend hundreds of gold to have the BIS consumes I think most people would not consider that person a scrub, especially if they are actually very good at the game. Here’s a quote I found from David Sirlin which I think has a lot of overlap with vanilla pvp. “I have been making competitive games that express the concept of an "even playfield" and that are sold in a straightforward way. By even playfield, that means that you don't have a material advantage over other players because you grinded to unlock more power or because you bought packs. It's distressing to me that other games supposedly about competition fail at those things. That they even allow the possibility of playing some gimped, weak thing against other people's more powerful thing.” From www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/2b322s/i_know_david_sirlin_isnt_wellliked_around_these/ Vanilla WoW definitely fits this profile of grinding to have an advantage over players who don’t grind which is a big turn off to people who may have a natural gaming talent but don’t like this P2W style of game (you pay with time instead of money by grinding gear/consumes/etc).

@Zinkx.

5 жыл бұрын

it's at that last point where I guess people maybe just have to accept that vanilla wow isn't the game for them and that's okay. Over all I do kind of agree with you tho.

@hasepase

4 жыл бұрын

that's total bullcrap. you don't win in vanilla by just using a FAP against someone else. there are countless ways to counterplay it by just dispelling it or just playing defensively/run away or vanish until it's over then fuck you up while you wasted your expensive pot and the cd to be able to use a cheap big health pot. most likely it will be just a bad player if he uses a fap in a random situation. anyway for many players gold is like silver for others so they simply beat you on that meta-level of the game.

Translation into vanilla : Join APES, quit your job, play wow for 18 hours a day, get to 60 when the zerg is lvl 15, farm devilsaur for 2 months, destroy server.

Your topics are super interresting.

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

6 жыл бұрын

MrNoeslol thanks mate, glad you are enjoying the videos, especially this one which I wasn’t sure would be received well.

I would agree with everything except that it's relatable to vanilla pvp where everything has a time criteria attached to it. For example, take a guy who had the IRL time to grind for R14. Would I be considered a scrub for not having time to grind for R14 ? I think the mindset you're talking about here is more relatable to a "fair" pvp environement. MMOs are like the most uneven playing field you can think of ...

@Zinkx.

5 жыл бұрын

just like life I guess everyone is on a fair playing field but if you start at lvl 40 with a ton of money in your bank it turns out it isnt...

Thanks mate that was actually really interesting, made me have a think anyway and look forward to more from ya

Great video man, I'm enjoying the content. Keep it up! WoW Classic player here looking for more good PVP videos and so far yours have been the best.

Love the videos bro thank you

I agree with you to a certain extend, but as other people pointed out, vanilla WoW doesn't provide an even playing field. You can still apply this mindset, but you will not necessarily be "better" than your opponent because you beat him. You might just have an unfair advantage through gear, consumes, ...Taken from the very beginning of Sirlin's book:"Magic: The Gathering is a card game that allows players to bring different decks to a tournament, but assuming all players have equal access to all cards beforehand (which you must assume at the tournament level of play), then anyone could have brought any deck. But games based on “leveling up” a character such as many massively multiplayer games allow one player to have material advantage at the beginning of a “match” merely because he put in more time than the other player. Seek out games that do not artificially stack the deck, but instead reward only the player-skill that one takes into a game"

This is pretty good!

This guy just ripped all For Honor players a new one lol

Vanilla pvp is not e-sport ! It's war between factions.... War is NEVER FAIR, war is NEVER BALANCED, the country that "farmed the most" (had a better economy, could built more planes, could train more pilots, made more babies in 3 last generations, had better technology...) ;) wins the war... You want to win the war? Use all you need to overpower your opponenent... and WIN THE WAR !

Hey Ohgee, does the statement at @4:25 encompass dodgers too? Because it definitely feat the bill in my opinion, especialy the "mercilessly" part.

Did I ever mention I like to play a soul link warlock? lmao

Sirlin himself is a scrub when it comes to game design.

@Nefariousbig

4 жыл бұрын

His book and this chapter in particular are complete fucking bollocks. Totally backwards too, - his mentality is the scrub mentality.

@axelbjefs

2 жыл бұрын

You kidding? SF2HD remix was awesome :-D

Thanks for sharing! Applies to real life too I guess

Damn i was not expecting a FGC video here. Do you play any SF yourself?

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

6 жыл бұрын

Nah, I don't have any real fighting game experience. I believe I was introduced to Sirlin's book by someone in the competitive Halo community but it was so long ago I honestly don't remember.

I might be a scrub by this definition, but at one point it boils down to how much vanilla pvp consumables cost. People ranking 16h/day for rank 14 that use crazy amount of consumables. When do they have time to farm gold to buy that? Between queues? Doubt it. In Street fighter you can't "cheat", only use tactics, no need to farm anything but practicing encounters. In vanilla wow, people gonna cheat to get these consumables because they don't have time to farm them as you need to rank. I would like you to address this point because it is borderline "you gotta use all tools or you a scrub, and if you want rank 14, you gotta play all free time in pvp, and use all consumables else you won't be rank14". Then I wish to know the trick to farm these consumables without losing ranks. Cuz at the end, somebody buying consumables with irl money will get a clear advantage in vanilla wow.

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

6 жыл бұрын

Polopollo75 People who are going for Rank 14 rely pretty heavily on support from their guilds unless it’s an older server and they have a ton of gold banked. Both times I got r13 I relied on 1,000’s of gold that was donated or loaned from guildies. It’s basically impossible to compete against enemy Premades or break strong PUG turtles without consumables, and as you mention it’s unlikely you will find the time to farm gold when you’re playing BG’s 16-18 hrs/day

@Polopollo75

6 жыл бұрын

Well good to know... I have a long way to go then, making friends first then! : P Another question I have: When you see you are against another premade, does it happen that the team decide to just lose the game quickly instead of burning through consumables? I always wondered what was the advantage to try to beat this team to maybe lose everything at the end of a really long BG while we can just lose quickly and queue up again pugs right after?

@OhhgeeHaptixGaming

6 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, this attitude often creeps into the minds of the losing side when they cannot seem to beat an enemy Premade. Giving up in the battle is pretty lame, but at least doesn't ruin the game for others like queue dodging. In a healthy PvP ecosystem, there will be multiple premades on each faction, and whichever group is able to beat other premades most consistently will get the top standings. Dodging creates big problems though - when people abuse the queue system it almost instantly ruins BGs for the whole server. Blizz needs to prevent dodging or PvP will be miserable on Classic. There are also problems on smaller servers (

@Polopollo75

6 жыл бұрын

Interesting, thanks!

David Sirlin is a gigantic scrub, he has no clue what he's talking about

You don't queue dodge. Are you a scrub?

You're defining 'overpowered' as if it was isolated from every other aspect of a game, abilities that are more 'even-keeled'. Sure, you can view every tactic that succeeds in every game as 'overpowered', but this type of philosophy is just that: philosophy. It's not like that is the actual hardline of every single competitive game, 'using overpowered shit to counter other overpowered shit to go back to using overpowered shit'. It's more like 'Oh, there are tactics that succeed generally more than other ones, and then there's those few tactics that just MERCILESSLY succeed' and those are the tactics that people shouldn't just sit around and let games develop their gameplay around. Communities aren't little bitches for complaining about shit being overpowered or 'muh it's just skill to use overpowered shit to counter and juke people'. No, they complain about things that seem unreasonable given the tactics surrounding them. While that's a loose definition to define what games should develop around (given that everything becomes overpowered even if surrounded by things on an equal level if it has just a LITTLE bit more power than that other tactic, so that's a flaw in my thinking), but all these gaylord game philosophers who say like the solution is to just accept that shit is overpowered is like... okay, you're right, but there's also a social aspect to it where shit just becomes unfair and unenjoyable-- while that is a part of competition and you should 'get used to it and use it to your advantage', it also is like saying Michigan shouldn't get its water fixed because it'd be sucking off the teat of the government. It just seems like a retarded argument. No, try to make the game more even-keeled and fun to play from every single angle versus just like a Jewy-fag Korean Nexon P2W simulator. But then again, both philosophies are right, I guess. I just dislike centrism really badly, eg, since there is no way to find the 'ultimate fair way to win in a game, just deal with it, gamer! We're going to give you the rocket launcher that does 5k damage next patch and now you will have to master that, hehe!'

@z0ne and @babak, stop crying about "being able to spend more time, to be able to have more money, to be able to have/use more options" Yes, we are all adults now, some of us are more successful then others, and there is nothing "unfair" or "scrublike" about mass farming pvp mats. You EARNED the extra power, weather you bought gold, farmed it, or inherited it, you earned it. Same as actual money. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

*With that logic, everyone would play the same fotm classes, with exactly the same engineering and external tools at their disposal.* *Resulting in a very stale and frankly boring meta, and most likely the game would end up dying.* *Want a real challenge??? BE the underdog --- and without getting carried by gadgets.*

@darchendon7926

5 жыл бұрын

Would the meta not change by people trying to find counters to fotm classes?

@in2it85

5 жыл бұрын

@@darchendon7926 There isn't, it's not as simple as 'Rock-paper-scissors'. Vanilla was NEVER designed around the PvP aspect, and it shows, that's why they made drastical changes to PvP the following expansions, e.g. PvP trinkets, and racials and Diminshing Returns.