Starts at 20:30 .

@ISAC_UChicago

4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately KZread doesn’t allow editing the preroll out until early morning the day after the lecture. Thanks for posting the timestamp, Sakis! We will post the final ones in the description once we can crop the video. (kb)

@ISAC_UChicago

4 жыл бұрын

(Update) The video has now been trimmed. Introduction: 0:05 Lecture starts at 11:45 Q&A starts at 59:50 Thank you again for providing the timestamp, @Sakis Voulgaridis! (kb)

Wow, these two Gimbutas memorial lectures are incredible, first Renfrew himself and now Goedegebuure. Thank you so much OI for sharing them with the world (in my case germany)

One day I might participate in these lectures but untill that time I appreciate these videos. Thank you for all the people who made it possible.

Thank you very much for this lecture and for sharing. Thank you OI and Petra.

Linguistic Paleontology should be in the name of the video. It's a good summary of the lecture.

Awesome lecture.

As a Latvian I really appreciate this woman's accomplishments and memory being honored in this way. 😊

Thank you so much.

Thank you for the lacture

Fascinating!

What was that, like FIVE people introducing the speaker? And I thought the Super Bowl had a lot of commercials.

@joannavandenbring1725

4 жыл бұрын

They should''ve cut that nonsense from the video, it's embarrassing!

Powerful presentation, fitting for the Second Lecture. Q: How did the Black Sea Flood change how the lands nearby were populated? What linguistic signals are seen from this major event at the center of the agricultural boom? Thanks.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

When did it happen?

56:20 As of September 2022 there are now over 700 samples. Again, no light blue in Anatolia.

This is awesome to see Gumbutas honored

Excellent lecture. More Petra, please!

@mkelkar1

4 жыл бұрын

Linguistic, textual, genetic and archaeological evidence for OIT of IE languages Baghpat Chariots, Weapons and the Horse in the Harappan Civilization - Dr. BK Manjul kzread.info/dash/bejne/mI6qrdKjmrfWl8o.html Findings from the latest genetic study conducted by ASI in collaboration withe Reich Lab at Harvard using the ancient DNA from Rakhigarhi slides at 29:00 mark kzread.info/dash/bejne/dp2jlaepYNHSppc.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/oGiLqM1pmaixZc4.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/mGSAyZObj5u0ZZc.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/X6t915WdhdbTpLw.html Here are the tribes that spread the Indo European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe Avestan) Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa). NE Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin). Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Iranian: Pakhtoon/Pashtu (Paktha). Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Iranian: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna). NE Iran: Iranian: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava). SW Iran: Iranian: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava). NW Iran: Iranian: Madai/Mede (Madra). Uzbekistan: Iranian: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva). W. Turkmenistan: Iranian: Dahae (Dāsa). Ukraine, S, Russia: Iranian: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu). Turkey: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu). Romania, Bulgaria: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Dacian (Dāsa). Greece: Greek: Hellene (Alina). Albania: Albanian: Sirmio (Śimyu). Click on for the full 4 part article by Shrikant G. Talageri talageri.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-recorded-history-of-indo-european.html Five waves of Indo-European expansion: a preliminary model (2018) Igor A Tonoyan-Belyayev I. Tonoyan-Belyayev www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_

@davidgavary9022

3 жыл бұрын

@@mkelkar1 Do an honest research and write honestly. The first writting as cunieform hapened in mesopetamia .

@mkelkar1

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidgavary9022 I agree with that. The OIT does not involve writing at all. The Sarasvati Sindhu Valley script still remains unreadable as do the Vinca letters. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script

Il devrait y avoir à la fin de la conférence,un résumé des choses très importantes,car il y’a tellement d’informations que l’on ne sait plus de quoi on parle,sur les réseaux les gens ne sont pas des historiens mais aimeraient suivre et apprendre ,merci,,

excellent lecture, thank you. just about words and concepts. there are societies who have quite clear concepts which play a major role but no explicit word for it. the examples given aren't probative. e.g. food baby is "Lebensmittelschwangerschaft" in German, and even 'gezellig', while no one word might correspond, the concept is quite clear. claiming 'unique' concepts is claiming cultural discreetness, an essentialist claim whichis patently wrong on every step and turn. Words are just ways of coding concepts which are common to all, just in different hues, shades and exposition.

shebit is a kind of little mini bread in turkish...baked on low flame...same vocabulary...

49 : More precisely SAGI is a sumerogramm for Akkadian _šāqû_ 'cup-bearer'. Note also *_karm-_ in North-West Semitic for wine and vineyard.

30 sons and 30 daughters sounds more like 30 days and nights of the month, very important number in Sumer.

one thing, As I follow her logic, it seems clear to me, If the mentioned languages, share a common ancestor that means they obtained similar words being at the same thresholds in the past, but before inventing wheel or agriculture, you have to invent the nature in language, air, water, soil, animals, more basic stuff, like in Hittite the word water is "watar", which might support her conclusion and I believe they did not call themselves Hittite as well, they called themselves Nesilians or Nesili, meaning "the ones who spoke the language of Nesi", the Hittite word is from the old testament, and yes there are thought to be many luwian sites on the west of anatolia, especially near rich mining areas, mounds waiting to be excavated, with pictures taken from above, anyone interested can search the Luwian Studies channel on youtube.

awesome lecture, thanks Petra. minor detail that does not change wine name related suggestion of hittites coming from east: wine in kartvelian languages is 'gvino' which has same 'vin' root, you may think it adopted from PIE, however loanwards in kartvelian languages never take 'g', it would remain 'v', 'vi' or 'vin'. every word with 'gv' combination is karvelian origin in these languages. therefore, PIE most likely adopted it from protokartvelian and not vice versa.

@kathykestner334

2 жыл бұрын

This might support the idea that I have been exploring. I believe that Dionisus was an actual person/cultural hero who spread if not the original use of the wild grape for wine, then the breakthrough of propagating through cuttings homogeneous vineyards instead of using seed. His origin is supposed to be Cyprus but he was supposed to have traveled extensively in Anatolia teaching people how to grow grapes and make wine,

@PataTrucks

2 жыл бұрын

@@kathykestner334 cultural hero, why not. certainly not original user as first winmaking artifacts in Caucasus and norther Iran are way earlier (well before the Kura Arax culture in 6 millenia BC) than its spread in Anatolia where greeks took this diety from. unless it survived several millenia. and why Cyprus? it quite far from wine origins in Caucasus

@PataTrucks

2 жыл бұрын

@@kathykestner334 you may find this interesting kzread.info/dash/bejne/pYuKu5SgYK3fmqw.html

@kathykestner334

2 жыл бұрын

@@PataTrucks Thanks for that link! The information was a major help. How does a guy from Cyprus get mixed up in the Mesopotamia wine culture? Greek legend stays that the goddess, Rhea of Anatolia (daughter of Gaia), issued a call to arms for all the Greek tribes to come and fight the men of India because they are telling a Big Lie, So, Dionisus answers the call and they square off with the Indians. Lots of heroic fighting takes place and Dionisus is a champion, The men of India take note and realize that they must take him out. They manage to poison him and he is made crazy and runs away. The subject of the war was dropped then, so I suspect it was a stalemate. The linguists know that the Indo-Hindastani split from the Indo-Iranians and migrated to India, They also know that the Iranians and the Hindu started calling each others gods devils. They call this The Pandemonium meaning "all devils". The legend doesn't cover what happened to the other Greeks that came but focused on Dionisus. He ran mad for a time being feral until his mind came back to him. Somehow he discovered wine. The legend is very vague about it, l suspect he stumbled upon one of these early vintners who helped him and taught him the craft. He would still have relapses of his madness from time to time probably a combination of PTSD and acid type flashback. But I think he found that drinking the wine helped him not slip into those nightmare realms as often. So he became an ancient Johnny Apple seed, He became a man with a mission to spread the art of growing grape to everyone. So of course a cult grew up around him. Hell, can you imagine what would have happened to Elvis in those days. He would have been a demigod too.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

@@kathykestner334 I would think this far fetched if I didn't know about St Fiacre from my locality who headed to Northern France with his supporters to teach the French how to dig their gardens. :-) . The French will confirm.

Am I the only one who thinks the PIE urheimat is the now flooded Black Sea basin? The separation of the Anatolian and Pontic branches of IE occurred before 4500bc, and the flood hypothesis would have separated them geographically around 5200bc at the latest.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Would certainly have impelled migration.

Based on the ancient DNA and same sources she shows (The first horse herders and the impact ...) the IRAN_N and Namazga had 90% Caucasus HG to further east around 8-6k BCE, Yamnaya_EBA at later time 3k BCE has 40%, it's pretty obvious IE movement is from IRAN_N area to northwest and southeast. The first people to call themselves Irani are from Caucus region and Zarathustra is said to be from same region (6k BCE) which to brought about the religious and cultural controversy and drift (Zoroastrianism vs Mithraism) that perhaps caused the IE to divide and dislodge from homeland to northwest and southeast.

Excellent, why don't all OI KZread lectures use this screen layout? I could clearly follow the slides on a mobile device unlike so many of the OI presentations.

@ISAC_UChicago

3 жыл бұрын

Hi @richardseye! This screen layout has been made possible by our new AV setup, finished in Spring 2019. We have had the capability to live-stream and record this way for a bit over a year now (obviously, not too many live lectures were possible in 2020), but going forward this is the baseline. Since prior recordings were created by AV contractors, we unfortunately cannot ‘re-master’ them to match this. (kb)

Hulki? Sounds rather like the world hull - meaning the skin or shell of a fruit or grain? Or husk meaning the same?

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I thought that too.

What a lady she was!

It would be interesting to have DNA information from Leyla-tepe culture, either kurgans and non-kurgans remains

The word kurgan may have been taken from the Iranian Azerbaijani Turkish word kuran which means founder. In Turkish, gur means grave. Kuran has two meanings. 1. Founder 2. Setup . Like setting up a tent. Nowadays, we call pre-Islamic graves gur. Maybe for someone who doesn't speak Turkish. A meaningless word. Just like the name Attila. Attila in Iranian Azerbaijani Turkish Attila means someone who is strongly dependent on his horse. Can it be used epically? In Turkish, at means horse. The word atti means his horse. Of course, Attila means to jump. It is possible that some people assume these two words as one. Sometimes la is added to a word. One person does something with a horse and another tool.

We have to consider the potential number of people fleeing for refuge from the Thera eruption (and what I think was more devestating for the whole coastline/islands), the immense tidal wave which followed, consuming countless coastal communities and people who thought they'd escaped the initial blast. Many would have had forewarning, noticed the caldera rise or had mini eruptions which made those who could leave to places of safety in nearby lands, with the aristocracy taking refuge with noble families in city states where intermarriage had aided the power balance so far. They would be safe to a large extent, but the majority of 'regular' refugees would have found themselves in the first place they made landfall and found/made accommodation with others from known societal groups, as happens in modern refugee camps worldwide today. They would have thought themselves lucky at seeing the eruption from a foreign shore, only to see the waters recede unusually, they'd have looked on in confusion as an inescapable wave bore down upon them, devouring many who had little chance to escape its onslaught. That's where one group of immigrants could have come into Anatolia.

@vinrusso821

4 жыл бұрын

That is 1500 BC, which is quite late when it comes to finding "origins".

@onbedoeldekut1515

4 жыл бұрын

@@vinrusso821 It's still one of the few 'cultures' of the period that we know little of, apart from their undoubted influence on Mycenae. Only with the recent excavations at tells on the northern Levantine/southern Anatolian coast, have we discovered their links with those city-states. I'm interested in where their confederation of island communities dispersed after their 'main' cultural base fell apart.

They understood each other but had differences

Do we have Y-dna data for the "Hittite" samples?

@NT-ph5fj

2 жыл бұрын

G-M406 and J2a

@johnrohde5510

2 жыл бұрын

@@NT-ph5fj thank you.

Great lecture but info on ancient DNA is quite muddled but it is difficult for non geneticists to get their head around. It is 6 DNA samples but each is the sum of their ancestors so each is the accumulation of samples from many ancestors, so in effect more samples the further back you look. What the samples is telling you is that the Hattian-luwien mixed people are from two populations that intermixed generations before the the person samples lived one population was indigenous and one came in and was CHG. The Hittites don’t exist as culture before 2000BC interaction with the hattians and therefore can’t be sampled before the intermixing as they can’t be identified to sample. The DNA evidence shows that if you could sample them then you would very likely just get CHG which wouldn’t tell you more than you already know. You could get very lucky and sample a second generation immigrant like what happened with the Phoenicians but that’s a needle in a haystack. It’s the same issue for yamnaya, pre yamnaya indi-Europeans are just going to look exactly like CHG. Without the EHG input or the Near Eastern farmer component you can’t tell the difference you’d just get CHG. so in essence the pre hittites and pre yamnaya have already been sampled, they are CHG. it’s not clear if they are all the CHGs or just a subset.

@freandwhickquest

3 жыл бұрын

Is pre-yanmaya CHG??

It is disturbing that in this Speach it is not mentioned that Renfrew has clearly stated that the Pontic Steppe Hypothesis has proven to be more plausible, some years before this Speach.

@jackdonith

2 жыл бұрын

Wasn't Renfrew himself talking about that in a lecture prior to this? Same series of lectures perhaps?

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Just listened. He very gracefully said Gimbutas was vindicated but he was still holding on to the Hittites like an old teddy.

But there was no plough in the first type of agriculture! It came to be used much later, you can't assimilate plough or ard terminology to agriculture, just to the much later invent of the ard.

O que é isto? A legenda não tem nada a ver com o audio?

Amazing lecture! Thank you Oriental Institute! If the Proto-Hittite come from the Caucasus, and did split from PIE before the steppe expansion, than the homeland of both should not be the Caucasus itself? One group went to the north and another one expanded to the south, right?

@AutoReport1

2 жыл бұрын

I think this is broadly correct. Of course the Caucasian languages are different so perhaps North Caucasus, with some PIE speakers moving North into the steppes, and the Nova-Anatolians moving South just as the Armenians, Mitanni and Iranians did later.

But the wheel was invented I Mesopotamia!!!! Not north for black sea!!! 🤷‍♂️ Anyone can explain?

@jasonhavron8697

3 жыл бұрын

You are correct but a lighter spoked wheel was invented north of the Black Sea. The Mesopotamian wheel was solid and heavy.

@davidgavary9022

3 жыл бұрын

@@jasonhavron8697 ...and writting , currency , astronamy , astrology , medicine , medical and many more....

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

@@jasonhavron8697 Were both four-spoked?

Has this scholar ever heard of secondary products revolution and of Andrew Sherrat's work? Amazing how linguists can make major authoritative statements without having the basic knowledge on Neolithic development...

@gf4670

Ай бұрын

Well yeah, that's one of my criticisms of her theory and others, as if grapes were only in one tiny area and known and exploited by one specific group of people and didn't have a worldwide distribution. The same with wool; just because sheep were first domesticated for meat and "woolly" sheep weren't bred until ~6,000 BC doesn't mean that there wasn't a word for wool even among hunter-gatherers. Wild sheep make wool, they're just more hairy, but humans have been using hides and plucking them for millennia and making use of the fibers. It's like saying humans didn't have words for tall grass until cereals were domesticated.

Some people came from the south The others were here

They found in anatolia gobli tepe

nice intro.

The proto anatolians are from armenia (kura araxes, shown by aDNA), not from steppe.

Were the Kugans also the Normans?

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

The Normans were Norsemen. Some were very dark skinned some light. Pretty well everyone here came out of Africa via the near East and Spain.

You see that in the mesopotamians tablets

Is written in greek literature Also the akkadians

And literature The ancient greeks

Not farming, but the plough, the two are not contemporary inventions!

"Languages in contact" part absolutely ignores spread and assimilation of languages through trade(pidgin languages) and neighbouring relations, and only talks about ordinate-subordinate relations that make little sense in period before city-states and wide conquests. Whole construct seems synthetic, if not ad hoc.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Trade and crafts have fairly discreet and limited languages. Also, trade between non settled peoples can be substantially carried out with hand signals.

You see the lions bulls

A group of people that went there and separeted

The same dutch they are second languages The dutch is from the scandinavians

German and dutch are very new languages

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Not as new as English.

That lítost thing's just not right. There is "sebelítost" for this sense, but that's just "self-pity".

39:06 - ritual horse and charion burials are quite a late development, and yet, thanks to rubbish pits, we know the the same cultures that first learned to ride the horse for a long time farmed them just for meat

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Finding that they drank their milk too

12 minutes of self congratulatory babbling... come on.

@chriswicker6672

Жыл бұрын

Typical of these lefties

@MauriceLeviejr

Жыл бұрын

It’s called decorum, you have to admire it 😊

The greeks had many languages

Chakra is cross

Agri cultura

She is wrong. Hittites came from Europe, and borrowed the agriculture words of Caucasian language Hattians. Why Renfrew insists and wrong theories? For money? Budget? Gimbutas was a master, she explained correctly the indoeuropean origin.

The wine is from anatolia

There is the two together

That last question about the word for `milk` may even point to an even earlier departure. The questioner attached the use of milk with the agricultural use of traction animals. But pastoralist used milk first, traction came afterwards. Maybe only shortly after but after . Goats tended to be used first because they were small enough for one person to hold them still while someone milked them. Even modern goats fight before they are trained to be milked. I used to raise them. BUT A COW fights harder and can do more damage. So can a horse. Goats and sheep were domesticated first. Milk use began with the goats. Goats can be used as pack and traction animals, Thor`s chariot was pulled by 2 large goats. But at first meat and milk. Goats might even have played in the domestication of the fierce wild cattle. Kill the wild mothers and raise the calves on the goats milk. You have an adult totally accustomed to humans. Continue to select for the traits you want and eat the young bulls that don't. In 2 to 3 generations you could have cattle tame enough to milk.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Thankyou

LOL kids in a basket ...."tapas in this high tide" as automated translation of "topos is this Hittite [legend]"

Eje

The first had a more difficult tanguage

It's amazing that much of it all started around what is now from Ukraine to Armenia, and Mt Ararat in Armenia is the supposed mountain of Noah. It was Steppe people (Tocharians) that basically gave China the horse, chariot, bronze, textiles etc etc.

@davidgavary9022

3 жыл бұрын

Noah and other biblical stories were adopted from the Assyrians. Be honest and truthfull not personal.

@christiancelticwarrior1222

3 жыл бұрын

@David Or the other way around

protokurgans,scythians or yamnaya people must have spread both west to europe and to anatolia where the further peoples spread and with more addings from europe,mideast and asia todays anatolian people were formed...nothing much different actually...the same kurgan culture,the only thing that changed is from female dominance to male dominance

The frisian is like inglish

You have to look to greek latin and romances languages and inglish

1:08:39 So Hittite women didn't breastfeed?

And armenians

What a mush-mash I now but I think maybe I don’t have information lecture was interesting but sadly very poor and confusing thank 😮

The wheel is from mesopotamia

@veronicalogotheti5416

2 жыл бұрын

They were the same people

@veronicalogotheti5416

2 жыл бұрын

Agrotika

Many modern and still used words came. From ancient summerian, hitite, Egyptian God knows what. See the words NESIL there, it means and used in Turkish as forefathers generation, the generation before us. Many many examples still live in Anatolia. And I'm always saddened by how all professors still can't say the easiest identifying words correctly. Sh sound, the soft g (a sound strictly Anatolian and summerian) not even closely sounded by any professionals an very important identifier of an old ancient word, ch sound, silent or hard i letter again no one even closely expresses it, no similar sounds u can find anywhere, easily trackable. Another clue is the vowel harmony. Original ancient words of Anatolia, turks and all other past cultures of near peoples used this harmony. You can't use a and e in a word, it must be a and I or e and i (ee). A-o-u, e-i-and an o with dots on top for how an sounds like ostreich German, or gotterdammerung. Easy rule. And see the word kultepe is written correctly but kanis is wrong in fact. It. Should have been KanIsh. The silently or hard I of ancient origin. They always say it's gilgamesh, correct words are KILKAMISH, meaning thin reed, KARKAMISH, KANISH, KILKAMISH are all names of real places, real names and still has meanings, I suggest you to learn some Turkish as a stepping stone.SARIKAMISH is still a town in modern turkey. Meaning yellow reed.

@davidgavary9022

3 жыл бұрын

Sahin Deria Gil or as you write kil means grass and gamesh means bull . It's all about Assyria wich has always been denied in order to shine the old testamend the biggest lie ever told. Don't be personal please.

@romusromulus

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidgavary9022 well do you see me talking about germanic roots of English? I'm using these words today, don't try to teach me. Gamesh and camis is different words. Camis is not bull and beasts of burden, cows and bigger beasts. Kil is again not green, shil is green. Used as yeshil in Turkish today.

@Fredmayve

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I believe it is always wise to ask a local person.

The athinian language is dorian and ionic

Paleo-linguistic is heavily used in nationalist propaganda, at least in Serbia, its really easy to find synonyms in ancient language and they take it as proof of our glorious nation that descended from first ppls. I really dislike the subject.

@aimanashole

4 жыл бұрын

if science threatens your ideology, you should reassess your ideology and not the science.

@bluemooninn

4 жыл бұрын

@@aimanashole no, he is saying people can hijack science to use for their own ideological gains, which can be dangerous.

@FarFromEquilibrium

4 жыл бұрын

Everyone does this, all over the world, not just Serbia, and there is a lot more to it than previously thought, as genetic ancestry tests are showing. Get over it. Nationalism is right about a lot of things, whether you like it or not.

@bluemooninn

4 жыл бұрын

@@FarFromEquilibrium nationalism is one of the reasons dumb wars start though. Can't just get over it. Maybe we can move on from it (nationalism).

@aimanashole

4 жыл бұрын

​@@bluemooninn using science as an argument isn't hijacking. the only way to "hijack" science is by censoring the opposition.

albinos or aliens, take your pick en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryans out of india theory

So a VO language sounds like Yoda? Laughing I am!

Wine is borrowed into semetic languages?? No!! What is this?? Unacceptable mistakes

The indoeuropeans have to do with greeks

German is out of place is a language invented in the 16 century this era