One thing I think we all agree with is orcs using practical effects of lotr are far better than the cgi orcs of the hobbit.

@joes3703

2 жыл бұрын

Don’t ever mention the two trilogies in the same comment ever again. The LOTR was so good and that which cannot be named was such an abomination.

@Mango-cp1im

2 жыл бұрын

@@joes3703 alright dude chill. Hobbit is just a different story and movie to lotr

@tristanfeiken3695

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mango-cp1im nah watch it again dude. It was pretty bad almost Disney like

@thinkwithurdipstick

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mango-cp1im they’re not even in the same caliber. I am daily astonished at how terribly they f’ed up with the hobbit

@Likexner

2 жыл бұрын

Its unfortunate that the development of better CGI results in film makers overusing it. Its cheaper and thats why they do it but it just doesnt look as good as practical effects in most cases.

Honestly i always preferred the film version, i love the visual distinction and variety between regular Orcs the insect like - seemingly infinite Goblins and the better trained more disciplined and bigger Uruk-Hai

@donavonhoward114

2 жыл бұрын

I agree. I also think it makes the race of orcs more interesting. They weren't very prominent in the books with the exception of a few scenes here and there. It was never something that Tokien was really clear about, or sure about, especially since the finer details of the orcs were not that important to the stories he wrote. The Lord Of The Rings movies were awesome because they didn't go with the traditional designs of goblins that people normally picture in their minds. Peter Jackson went with a more demonic, darker design, and each orc is very unique from each-other. Each of the orcs, goblins, and Uruk-hai have different amounts of self mutilation, battle wounds, and it really makes the audience see just how vile, painful, and ruthless the culture of the orcs can be. I like The Hobbit movies as well, but in my opinion they downgraded the looks, and the actions of the orcs in those movies. They weren't as believable as the ones from the Lord Of The Rings films.

@MichaelDG2023

2 жыл бұрын

@@donavonhoward114 Great points re orcs I think the Hobbit films downgraded the very book upon which they were based

@StarlasAiko

Жыл бұрын

I like how the Movies explained where the Orcs came from, elven prisoners that were experimented on with dark magic. And further, according to the movies, the Uruk-Hai are the perfection of that experiment. I don't know if the books at any point mention where orcs come from, but it is feasable that the Half-Orcs from the books are what the movies call Uruk-Hai, the perfected breed of Orcs, free of the imperfections and weaknesses of the common Orcs.

@danielled8665

Жыл бұрын

@@donavonhoward114 well, that's the theming of the Hobbit books. It was originally written as a children's story to keep all the names straight. It was simpler, more silly with less dire stakes and for a younger audience. The Lord of the Rings was made for adults, a complex story of loss and sacrifice, love and hope, even in a world that is faded from glory. And the Silmarilion was written for scholars, people who wanted to dive deep and study history and linguistics. I think the reception from fans reflects this too. It's why ROP is being so skeptically received. People who love Silmarillion are lore-nerds and history buffs who love fictional details, dates and semantics and linguistics. They're naturally going to be more critical of inaccuracies. I say this with affection and also exasperation as I've done a few dives through the Silmarillion. Enough to know the stories but not so many times that I have all the time lines figured out or always remember which one was Fingon, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Finrod, and how they were related to everyone else. I've got most of the Son of Feanor figured out again except in some places where similar names can get mixed up. And there's one guy who even Tolkien hadn't actually solidly decided who his parents were.

@Nerobyrne

Жыл бұрын

in Battle for Middle Earth, orcs are free to train. So all you need is maxed orc burrows, and you can overwhelm your enemy with a "black tide" of never-ending goblins. As they die in your enemy's base, the pop slots are freed up and new ones spawn. Just had to think about that when you said "infinite goblins" ^^

One thing is for certain. Saruman basically did a super soldier program for Ocrs

@Entropy3ko

5 ай бұрын

This started with Sauron already. Saruman just went further.

From what I remember of the book of Two Towers, it was stated that Saruman breed them specifically to be immune to sunlight, as Sunlight made most orcs sick or something. He was trying to improve on the Uruk's of Mordor and made his Fighting Uruk-Hai.

@caucasoidape8838

Жыл бұрын

I like how dawn still blinded them anyways.

@highlandus

Жыл бұрын

incorrect

@elhepe1290

Жыл бұрын

@@highlandus you are incorrect :D

@highlandus

Жыл бұрын

@@elhepe1290 I'm not lol

@emilpanelius1614

Жыл бұрын

@@highlandus how is he incorrect then

Come to think of it there was possibly a half-orc (or man-orc) in the Fellowship of the Ring, in the Prancing Pony chapter, where one of the men present is described as really unpleasant, ugly-looking and twisted; this man was also implied to be a spy from the south and thus by implication an agent of Isengard.

@alanpennie8013

2 жыл бұрын

You are correct. It appears in the Unfinished Tales that other Dunlendings believed him to be part - orc in ancestry. Whether he actually was is entirely unclear.

@BenFrayle

2 жыл бұрын

Bill Ferny was described as looking goblin-like, and he was likely a spy of Mordor.

@mrillis9259

2 жыл бұрын

The west even with constant threat of death from afar, was very tolerant of their enemies walking peacefully in their lands. Much like our world.

@kuno3336

Жыл бұрын

@@mrillis9259 that sounds like anti-migrant "enemy within" talk, friend. Did you mean something different, though? Cause I can think of enemies within, and I'm just curious if we are actually on the same page

@FerriteCrowe

Жыл бұрын

@@kuno3336 Sounds more like the enemy are people who have no love or respect for the cultures and laws of their countries.

if you pay attention in fellowship(in the book), when the hobbits are in bree it tells how a couple of the humans there seemed kind of off to the hobbits and didn't look quite right. flash forward to either the first encounter with the uruk hai and the slaying of boromir, or just the description, and the hobits are instantly reminded of the men from bree. this lends credence the claim that the uruk hai were these half orcs. even treebeard muses about how soruman must have either bred men or dark elves with orcs.

@henryevans9975

9 ай бұрын

Dark elves?

@HolyMith

8 ай бұрын

@@henryevans9975 Dark elves - Moriquendi - elves who never dwelt under the trees of Valinor. I don't remember Treebeard ever saying this, though it has been a while since I read the books.

@HolyMith

8 ай бұрын

This doesn't mean that they were all half-orcs, though it certainly doesn't rule out that some of them might have been. I think of the Uruk-hai as more of the name of Saruman's elite army, made of the largest and most cunning orcs he could find. Then conditioned, drilled and equipped far better than even Sauron's Uruks. It doesn't stretch the imagination that some of Saruman's half-orcs will have fit the requirements to be in the Uruk-hai.

My take (from reading the books) is that there are "generic" orcs/goblins, like the ones from the Misty Mountains and most of those serving under Sauron in Mordor, who are very similar to each other and are rather small (smaller than men on average), don't like sunlight and so on. These are the "original" orcs, the first breed that Morgoth himself created. Then there are the Uruks, who are an orc breed somehow empowered by Sauron himself. These orcs are the elite of Sauron's armies, and are bigger and stronger than their orc cousins, though they have less acute senses and are still vulnerable to sunlight (if Sauron's will isn't with them). Then, finally, there are the Uruk-hai, a breed of "half-orcs" created by Saruman, who are almost indistinguishable from Men, can't see well in the night but have no problem walking in the sun. Even Gandalf wondered what these "half orcs" were, if improved Uruks or ruined Men.

@sbraypaynt

8 ай бұрын

I like the idea that Saruman used black magic to corrupt human DNA/Souls to create the unholy and destructive Uruk-Hai. Combining the best and most useful traits of the Orc along with the most base and cruel aspects of human beings.

@AzraelThanatos

8 ай бұрын

I kind of figured that while most of the orcs were having some issues with light that they didn't particularly enjoy, the main issue with the Moria and Misty Mountains ones was that they had adapted more to life underground and it would take a lot longer for their eyes to fully adjust and they had trouble seeing well enough to keep up. Essentially, environmental breeding for where they were living.

@Svensk7119

8 ай бұрын

I like your distinction.

@maximus3160

7 ай бұрын

Almost indistinguishable from men? Where did you get that nonsense?

@ValeTheOwl

7 ай бұрын

@@maximus3160 LOTR books. The hobbits meet Saruman's (probably)human spies and lackeys in Bree and the Shire, and when they meet the Uruk Hai they are immediately reminded of them. They even go as far as calling them "half-orcs".

Hmm, I assumed goblins were sort of "feral" orcs that lived independently of Mordor, but came under Sauron's domination whenever he was "around".

@BenFrayle

2 жыл бұрын

All orcs did this. Without a strong leader (whether Sauron, a Balrog, Nazgul etc.) they just did their own thing.

@ghoulbuster1

4 ай бұрын

@@BenFrayle They need the biggest and the meanest to be the big boss.

@KevinWarburton-tv2iy

3 ай бұрын

Well they had their own strong leaders. The Great Goblin of Moria, Azog & Bolg of Gundabad ...nominal Vassals of Sauron ...but to all intents & purposes doing their own thing in the Autonomous/semi-Autonomous Fiefs. Even Sarunman had not bowed to Sauron as he was trying to contest Sauron's Power with his own.

@TheTuttle99

2 ай бұрын

"Quotations"

@neckreth

2 ай бұрын

"Just hanging around"

Congratulations Saruman! You did something so vile not even Sauron attempted to do it! Had me rolling my dude. 😂

I always had an internal concept of orcs being a pretty diverse species, with many subspecies, like dogs. For one, the original orcs that Morgoth made from elves would not only be just a corrupt form of an elf, but also the powerful elves of the first age. Later generations (however they reproduce) would be a more distinct form. This applies if Sauron created his own from elves, and also (and don't quote me on this) I've always felt that the magic employed by Sauron was a much "smaller" and more malevolent form than Morgoth (makes sense, as they are different types of beings), so perhaps their methods produce different results? In any case, points made by others here fit with me in that "orc" can be used as a catch all term both biologically and professionally. Not to mention how different character/races in the books use terms. "goblin" always fit for me as a term for the subterranean versions that have presumably evolved as such, and I think the films had this idea in giving them big eyes and smaller stature and hooting vocalizations etc. These creatures are operating somewhat autonomously from Sauron's direct influence. One can also assume differences in the type and subcukture of the various orc populations across the world. Gundabad orcs are probably far different from Mordor orcs, who would probably be the most militant and disciplined ones under immediate control of the Nazgul. And I suppose it occurs to me that Moria goblins in particular were heavily influenced by Durin's Bane as opposed to Sauron. The two are both Maiar and former servants of Morgoth but not necessarily in concert in the 3rd age. In the films at least, the armor of the gobbos is based on the Balrog's form and they live sort of like a person and an ant colony.

@Yobobacca

6 ай бұрын

This is the correct answer, we are all humans, but time and evolution have made us all different. Orcs started off with Morgoth but over the years changed by their masters, locations, and survival needs to different species.

@danielled8665

5 ай бұрын

There is also a situation when Frodo and Sam are in Mordor in the books, you see one taller more upright Orc leading a second smaller crawling and sniffing Orc like a handler. It's pretty clear there are different varieties bred for different jobs and tasks.

@Entropy3ko

5 ай бұрын

Which is essentially *incorrect*. From what we know from Tolkien writings, Sauron was the one to start making more powerful orcs, because Morgoth orcs were rather rubbish. Yes there are essentially different "races" of orcs, but because later more powerful orcs were engineered by Sauron and later Saruman who even further improved on them.

@IllustriousCrocoduck

5 ай бұрын

@@Entropy3ko are you replying to me? Sounds like we are in agreement.

@KevinWarburton-tv2iy

3 ай бұрын

Gundabadi were well organised & well ordered in their own Right. Maybe not as much as Sauron's Elite or Saruman's Elite. But organised nevertheless.

It’s actually implied to some degree that the (at least by Jackson’s films and a few lines in the books) that the Uruk-hai of Isengard are actually half-orcs themselves bred by Sauraman by having Uruks of Mordor and/or the Northern mountains (in other words the biggest and strongest orcs he could find) rape women of Dunlend, Rohan, and Gondor (hence the raids on the latter two nations). These non consensual unions possibly produced even larger stronger orc-hybrids with mannish intelligence and size (hence the Uruk-hai’s description as being such) who were immune to the sting of sunlight (it’s implied in the books that goblins/orcs aren’t slain by the sun as trolls are, rather their sheer internal darkness is reflected in a hatred for the light and at the very least some measure of physical discomfort in its presence - like a really pale human needing to be extra careful of sunburns).

@CorranBOC

Жыл бұрын

Maybe i'm wrong about this but wasn't it implied that when Morgoth twisted and infused his essence into the Orcs and many of the dark creatures of middle earth, that it in turn infused Morgoth's own hatred of the light into his creations?

@fredricdonner

Жыл бұрын

The Gundabad and azogs legions walked during daylight too without problem

@c.antoniojohnson7114

6 ай бұрын

Maybe that's why Celebrian was kidnapped,she was broken and had to leave for valinor.

@kamikazoo6599

6 ай бұрын

​@@fredricdonnerThat's not Cannon.

@InGrindWeCrust2010

5 ай бұрын

I think in less contemporary English language, the difference between the "Orc-Men" and "Men-Orcs" imply who the father than mother is, the father being an orc and a human respectively with each term. So that although Tolkien ultimately leaves it up to speculation, the latter term would imply that human men got it on with female orcs. This is totally setting aside the whole question of how orcs multiply and whether or not there are female orcs, which is another ultimately undefined question from Tolkien.

The group of orcs taking the hobbits to Isengard was composed of 3 factions. The orcs of Mordor from over the river, the goblins that came out of Moria who followed the fellowship and the uruks from Isengard. I believe "mountain maggots" referred to the moria orcs / goblins

There are some possible explanations for why the orcs and goblins look so different. They could be populations that derived from a common ancestor and were subject to genetic drift, loss or fixation of particular alleles due to random chance. If early on in the history of Goblin Town there was a particularly large specimen who fell into a chasm before producing offspring, then the alleles that made them so big would be lost to future generations. This is tied to the Founder Effect, where a subset of a larger population breaks off and becomes the genetic basis for a new one. Smaller populations are more at risk of genetic drift as there are fewer individuals that alleles need to sweep through to fixation, and fewer "backups" for alleles to fall back on before they are lost. Another possibility is population structure, where deep divisions occur due to non-random mating. Think of the caste system in India, where everyone can interbreed but they frequently don't due to cultural taboos, and so these sub-populations accumulate allele frequency differences. Perhaps Goblin Town and Moria are populated by the worker caste of orcs while Mordor is full of soldier orcs? This is just me trying to make sense of them biologically, and I could well be wrong. After all I'm not Tolkien.

@ltchugacast131

4 ай бұрын

There’s the very grim possibility given the lack of evidence of female orcs that all orcs have direct mannish or elvish lineage and raiding villages and taking people isn’t just for food loot and revelry but reproduction. Perhaps this is the terrible means by which men can be dominated and brought down to orc level. Generations of horrible “orc husbandry”

@chunkyMunky329

4 ай бұрын

I think you're just inventing a coping mechanism for the fact that Peter Jackson did some random stuff in his movies just because it would look cool. He didn't understand or appreciate Tolkien's nuance and depth so he changed stuff for the sake of it.

This isn’t a distinction between them, but I notice that generally speaking Orcs & Uruk are conscripted in the service of either Sauron or Saruman, where Goblins tend to live in Goblin colonies. In other words, orcs are soldiers goblins are not.

@davidwright7193

2 жыл бұрын

Nope orc and goblin are simply synonymous. The notes on translation in LotR make that very clear.

@gazlator

Жыл бұрын

@@davidwright7193 Absolutely. Curious how so many, many fantasy-lovers actually seem to think they are different things, somehow.

@davidwright7193

Жыл бұрын

@@gazlator The majority of fantasy lovers regard orcs, goblins etc as different because Gary Gygax made them different and impose that difference on Middle Earth where none exists.

@theswampus670

Жыл бұрын

@@davidwright7193 That's why it's important to remember that each fantasy world is separate from others. While the roots all modern western fantasy were born from Tolkien, many have existed long enough to define themselves as Unique. Be It D&D, Pathfinder, Warcraft, or Warhammer, All these worlds Contain Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins but you would not say that any are the same Creatures found in Middle Earth or any other world.

@Framlii

Жыл бұрын

@@gazlator because most fantasy- lovers don’t read all available books/ letters and drafts in which it could be stated otherwise. If you read one story and in it, there is no indication of orc and goblin being exact same. It opens room for theories.

One idea I've had about orcs explains some of the lines about half-orcs, and other things: I think Tolkien's vision of orcs is much more human-like and much less hideous than orcs have been portrayed in movies and media. I imagine orcs aren't supposed to be these gross slimy rotten-toothed monsters that the movies show, but more like particularly ugly humans. That would explain how a half-orc was able to live in Bree (he could pass for just being an ugly human) and it would also explain the several times in the books that characters are mistaken for orcs (such as when Treebeard finds the hobbits and thinks they're orcs, or the times when characters see others at a distance and can't tell if they're men or orcs).

@tolkienuntangled

Жыл бұрын

This is really fascinating! You may be onto something.

@jangolub8240

Жыл бұрын

Did a half orc live in bree?

@orirune3079

Жыл бұрын

@@jangolub8240 one of the hobbits remarks on Bill Ferny (i think that was his name - the one who sold them Bill the pony) something like "he looks more than half an orc himself." I always interpreted that to mean that he either actually was half an orc, or that orcs look enough like ugly humans that they could be mistaken for one another.

@garyhare4805

Жыл бұрын

I think you're right. Original orcs are a race of elves that were corrupted by Melkor. Obviously they became uglier and twisted, but if they start mixing with tribes of men, you're going to get watered down orcs. But yea, even full orcs shouldn't really look like the monsters from the films. But in the films, they change ALOT. I always imagine them ugly little things like a cross between a monkey and a vampire, but I now think a real orc would dress like a barbarian warrior but a bit uglier and vicious looking. Like some of them in the films. But others also seemed to have deformities and disease. I think it's Grishnakh. He looks like elephant Man.

@caucasoidape8838

Жыл бұрын

My first stepdad was most definitely an orc.

The Half Orc represents a mirror of the half elves. Just as the Noldor had the grace and beauty of the Elves with the boundless potential of men, so it stands to reason that the dark forces would seek to answer that with half orcs just as they answered Ents with Trolls.

@katherinewilson1853

2 жыл бұрын

I like this, thank you.

@skywarp2414

Жыл бұрын

Ive always felt that Gothmog was a half-orc.

@beersmurff

Жыл бұрын

Wait what? Noldor ARE elves. Not Half-Elves. Noldor means Those Who Know, they were also called Deep-Elves, but never Half-Elves. A Half-Elf is when the Valar gifts, a succession line of a match between a human and an elf, the ability to choose to be mortal man or immortal elf. Like Elrond, who chose to be an elf, while his brother chose the mortal life of men.

@mm650

Жыл бұрын

@@beersmurff Yes, you are quite right, I meant to write "Numenoreans" not "Noldor".

@KevinWarburton-tv2iy

3 ай бұрын

So why did you not edit your Comment? LOL

I sort of feel in my head cannon that when Melcore made the original orcs, as Tolkien said, he used and corrupted elves. Perhaps later on when he discovered dwarves, he corrupted them into the underground dwelling goblins. Later still when he found men he corrupted them to create the uruks. It worked for him once, why wouldn't he continue doing it.

@AlyssMa7rin

2 жыл бұрын

So in the Silmarillion it’s implied that Dwarves were too stout and stubborn to be corrupted, after the manner of their creator Aulë

@brianhelm2328

2 жыл бұрын

@@AlyssMa7rin Was that specificly corruption by Sauron's rings? Because Melcore, who was a greater being than Sauron, and more powerful than Aule, might have means that were more effective for corruption. Even dwarves might fall.

@elishamalisha

2 жыл бұрын

I've thought this before too.

@therealmatthewsmith

Ай бұрын

The ents were corrupted into trolls also

I always felt the same for Dunlings. I felt bad for them as they were just the less developed men that Rohan simply pushed out of their home. And when I found the middle earth mod for mount&blade, I played as a Dunlending warchief. Not because I wanted to play an evil character but because I felt that they were the true under dogs of the war.

@The_Crimson_Fucker

5 ай бұрын

They wouldn't be the only race of men to be lead to evil by compound misfortune. The men of the east are heavily implied to be ultimately lead to Sauron's side by a long list of grievances with Gondor and the influence from Black Numenoreans. Grief, enmity and desperation leading people to Evil is a theme in the series.

I think that it is a testament to Tolkien's ability as a linguist. Words in every language have an original intended meaning, and then they have the mistaken meaning that we have given them in common use. In my opinion this is one area that most authors who try to add a con-lang to their works mess up, they will have everyone in the book using the invented words and phrases correctly. The best English example that I could give is American. There is a proper definition, and yet there are a hundred different meanings depending on context.

I always believed that Uruk Hai where half orcs created by Saruman and Uruks where the same created by Sauron even before. I think this makes sense but as you said: "It is complicated."

@zero3556

2 жыл бұрын

I always thought the difference is between Uruks made by Saruman and Orcs and the -Hai part of Uruk-hai is the plural Form of Uruk

@MaceLupo

2 жыл бұрын

@@zero3556 Yeah one could really interpret it this way. To be more specific what I really thought is that Uruks where a mix between Orcs and Halforcs.

When Frodo and Sam are in Mordor, they cross a pair of orcs. One is said to be smaller and be constantly sniffing as if breed for scouting and that the other was bigger.

Bit late to this but I have always felt that the film's choice to have the visually different orc/goblins worked really well. There is a lot to be said for world building being able to tell where you are based on the orc on screen. Works a lot better than films made today with every population being identical diverse and you never knowing where you are.. cough rings of power for example. One change I think was good for the film's :)

@chunkyMunky329

4 ай бұрын

I get the criticism of Rings of Power and other woke shows/films, but I find your reason strange. I can tell where they are by looking at the environment, clothing or architecture. Also, in real life most non-white people look more the same within their races than white people. And therefore, most people cannot tell where in Asia the scene is just by looking at an Asian person. This is just life bro.

Great to see you back! I think I had been under the impression that the Uruk-hai WERE the half-orcs. Probably a case where my reading was influenced by the breeding of the Uruk-hai in the films.

@MasterBombadillo

2 жыл бұрын

There is also one quote from Treebeard speculating about Uruk-hai being Half-orcs or even corrupted Men, but these were based only on the story Merry and Pippin told him and the fact he - wrongfully - believed Orcs can't tolerate the sunlight at all.

@russellwarren9595

2 жыл бұрын

i thought i read that Uruk-hai were orcs interbred with goblin-men! but after reading your post i think i may have confused the films and books. it has been a good 10 years since i last read them.

@hubris0

2 жыл бұрын

I had the same impression, and I first read the books in the 80s.

@frankmueller2781

2 жыл бұрын

"URUK" means "Warrior." The Uruk-Hai were indeed half-orcs, and hence were of larger stature and better at tolerating sunlight. Those 'half-orcs' that appeared more manlike were sent north into Bree and the Shire by Saruman. Jackson's 'cinematic liberty' only confused the issue.

@Likexner

2 жыл бұрын

@@frankmueller2781 But if crossbreeding orcs with men was an improvement, why not just use men? Whats the advantage of the Uruk Hai? I know they look stronger than men in the movies, or at least Lurtz does, but is that canon?

Makes sense to me that the the orcs of moria are visually quite distinct from others, the smaller size could be because of worse quality food down there versus orcs moving around the surface more, and the bigger eyes could also be a product of living for several generations in almost complete darkness. That could also be why the word goblin is mostly referring to the orcs of the misty mountains, as it would help people to distinguish between them even though it technically means the same thing. And some orcs from certain bands being bigger than other could simply be a matter of priority, if like you said some bands have superior training it would make sense if they also place more importance on having the strongest orcs, which could lead to selective breeding over the generations. While the orcs in the mordor hordes for example seem to focus mostly on numbers and obedience, making it a waste of time and resources to put focus on only allowing the strongest to breed

@kentknightofcaelin4537

6 ай бұрын

Now that I think of it, what do Moria orcs eat? Spiders or something?

I can explain the great differences Peter Jackson used in his films. First you have to go back all the way to 1983 and the creation of the Middle Earth Role Playing Game. or MERP for short. This RPG was VERY popular back in the 1980's and played all over the western world by many Fantasy role-players (including me and my friends). This game has literally dozens of VERY detailed books based on Middle Earth with VERY detailed explanations of all aspects of the world, including all of the Goblinoid species. Flicking through the pages of these books and you will VERY quickly realise where much of the info Jackson used came from. From memory Jackson in his youth was an RPG player and I am betting owns all of the MERP books complete with the detailed maps, towns, cities, and Goblinoid species. I am curtain Jackson took all of this info and he and his teams used it as a guide and reference for his own adaptations for his movies. I know this because too much of the books from MERP can be clearly seen in his movies. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qauG27ykn6WslpM.html - kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYeC1JRvmbzffqg.html - kzread.info/dash/bejne/nYdq1qhvaai9mLQ.html

@kencooper8835

2 жыл бұрын

MERP, created by Iron Crown Enterprises (I.C.E.) of Charlottesville, Virginia, was a spin-off of their larger 'generic' Rolemaster RPG. They were licensed by Tolkien Enterprises from 1984 to 1999, when they lost their license to further produce the game as MERP. The many details you allude to all came from not only The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but also the Silmarillion, and the extensive series of books collectively titled underneath the banner History of Middle Earth. In fact, a number of years ago, I watched on Ebay as one of the founders of ICE was auctioning off his entire collection of History of Middle Earth books, 1st Printings all (if i remember correctly), ahead of the release of the first of the Peter Jackson' LotR movie.. If only I had had $18,000.. that was the "Buy Now" price...*sigh* oh well... So in a way, you are correct to say Peter Jackson may have been influenced by the details found within MERP, but I am pretty sure he bypassed the actual books of MERP and went straight to the source- the 12-volume set of History of Middle Earth.

A very well-researched video on this subject, and possibly the best found here on KZread. There are a few things I would like to add though. _“‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armour, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’”_ - LotR; Book VI Chapter 2 I think this particular quote isn't as ambiguous as people think it is. While I do realize this is a quote that a lot of people think refers to Saruman’s Uruks that are supposedly in Mordor, this interpretation doesn’t make much sense. These particular Orcs are searching for Frodo and Sam, with the information Shagrat has spread about the events of Cirith Ungol. And we can link all of these to things we have read previously. That small dwarf-man is referring to Frodo. Shagrat and Gorbag did not know what Frodo was, and kept referring to him as “this little fellow.” They didn’t know the word halfling, or what hobbits were. So the next best thing is “dwarf-man” indeed. Furthermore, the moment we see Gorbag and Shagrat talking, there is speculation about an Elven warrior that is still on the loose. This obviously refers to Sam. _“'That's done it!' said Sam. 'Now I've rung the front-door bell! Well, come on somebody!' he cried. 'Tell Captain Shagrat that the great Elf-warrior has called, with his elf-sword too!'”_ - LotR; Book VI Chapter 1 So two of the three are quite accurately representing the information Shagrat had available to him. Now there’s the matter of the pack of rebel Uruk-hai. Now, there has been no sign at all of Saruman’s troops anywhere close to Mordor. So why would they refer to Isengarders in this situation? Would they even know about the Uruk-hai? What we do know however, is that Shagrat and Gorbag were fighting, and their troops too. Shagrat even called Gorbag a rebel. _“'Then you must go. I must stay here anyway. But I'm hurt. The Black Pits take that filthy rebel Gorbag!' Shagrat's voice trailed off into a string of foul names and curses. 'I gave him better than I got, but he knifed me, the dung, before I throttled him. You must go, or I'll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we'll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won't escape by skulking here.'”_ - LotR; Book VI Chapter 1 Given the circumstances of this particular quote, I think it’s obvious this “pack of rebel Uruk-hai” is referring to Gorbag and his company, by Orcs send specifically to search for the ones responsible for the events at Cirith Ungol. There is also another quote that directly links the term Uruk-hai to Sauron's Orcs. This is a very obscure quote from the Parma Eldalemberon journal. _The debased form of the B. S. which survived in the Third Age only in the Dark Tower is seen in a few names (as Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk') and the fragment of vituperation uttered by one of Grishnakh's companions, emissaries from Sauron._ - PE #17 Furthermore, there is the linguistical argument that can be made. _“Uruks - Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength.”_ - Unfinished Tales; Index This particular quote specifically says that "Uruks" is nothing more than the Anglicized form of "Uruk-hai", meaning the latter is the real BS plural of the term "uruk". This makes sense. First of all, Tolkien didn't create languages in which plurals where made by just adding an -s, like in English. Secondly, he used "uruks" interchangeably with "Uruk-hai" in Unfinished Tales (actually, this is the only time the term "Uruk-hai" is used in UT). Of course, the authenticity of this particular quote has been questioned (some people argue that Christopher wrote it), but we see this is true even in LotR, where Tolkien used the term "uruks" in the Appendices specifically for Saruman's Orcs too. _“Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.”_ - LotR; Appendix A So I think no matter who wrote said entry in the index of UT, the information it contains is correct. Of course, there is this quote that you have already quoted in your video. _“Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.”_ - LotR; Appendix F However, this particular quote also implies that Uruk-hai is used for troops from both Mordor and Isengard. After all, they are put in the same quote, and the second sentence doesn't seem to exclude either one. In fact, both the Uruks from Mordor and those from Isengard have used the term "snaga" to refer to weaker breeds. So in my opinion, uruks and Uruk-hai are the same things. I have to say it again though: great video, with very accurate information.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Really great additions, thanks very much! I'm inclined to agree with you. I really don't think there's any reason to believe that the "rebel uruk-hai" are intended to be from Isengard.

@dragonhelmofdor-lomin4017

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed - Uruks are far more likely to be an improved breed of Orcs than that they are just another type of Half-orcs and Goblin-men.

@olibob203

2 жыл бұрын

I feel the answer is they have different names, so they are different 😂 yet similar, but this may be over simplified. Not going to lie this is the most detailed comment on the internet I've seen, top tier effort. My paragraph above is about as much brain power I have.

@windalfalatar333

2 жыл бұрын

While I do agree with almost everything in this post (which is very good, with excellent quotations) I think that the term 'rebel Uruk-hai' could just refer to any band of these, generically. It is evident from the books that Orcs are highly unruly and require a great deal of violent discipline to fall in line, and the two Orcs captains as you know discuss what to do after the War and that they may set up their own independent operations, so that 'rebel Uruk-hai' could be just that: an unspecified group not under the dominion of either Isengard or Mordor.

@targun6063

2 жыл бұрын

​@@windalfalatar333 He made a very good point drawing connections to what happened at Cirith Ungol though. It would make no sense for those Uruk-hai not to be Gorbag's company, since this obviously was connected to a search party for the escaped prisoner and his helper at Cirith Ungol where two companies of Orcs slaughtered each other - the events are too similar to Shagrat's knowledge about what happened for these Uruk-hai to be a random company somewhere in Mordor.

My assumption was always that Saruman's bigger, badder orcs were the result of some sort of foul interbreeding program with humans. It would explain their larger stature and resistance to sunlight and it lines up with Saruman's use of confirmed hybrids like goblin-men and man-orcs. Although the Jackson movies don't mention orc-human hybrids, I do think the obvious implication is that Saruman's much larger and more human-looking Uruk-Hai have somehow been given human traits.

Hello Rainbow Dave. First off, let me say thank you very much for very interesting and informative videos that included some very fun facts and intriguing observations. I want to share a few thoughts concerning on Orc’s, Uruk’s, Goblin’s and half Orc’s. The Orc’s are not a race, they were corrupted from the first and least of the Elves. It is explicitly stated that they were captured, tortured and mutated by Melkor. Every race including the Maia, mate - male and female - to produce children in Arda. When Oromë came to escort them West, Melkor could only take the stragglers or those who were left behind in the East. With a finite resource on his hands, the only way he could produce the armies of Orc’s depicted in the earliest stages of Middle-Earth was by forcing them to inbreed at a ferocious rate for generations to come. The result is the disfigured, stunted life form known as the Orc’s who are terrified of the sun because they had never seen it before, nor the moon. As Frodo and Sam found in Cirith Ungol and within Mordor, there are useful types of Orc’s. Some are trackers, some are runners, some are just strong-backs, others are the heavy-duty brutes we know as Uruk’s. The only training they would know is fighting each other to survive and get enough to eat. We are also told that Melkor and Sauron dominated their minds and made him more aggressive in battle, so why bother to train what is essentially cannon fodder. Saruman bribed his, remember? Melkor, Sauron and later, Saruman would have no choice but to interbreed with other creatures available to them. Always looking for better traits to breed into Orc’s to pass on to their young. Strength, Aggression, Cunning and occasionally even Intelligence. Though that last one is least desirable in a servant, as Sauron knows how he rose to be the Dark Lord. Sauron ordered the strongest of his Fighting Orcs to take over Gundabad and make it their own. There to breed the strongest to the strongest over generations. The sports would be killed off and the result would be those like Azog and his son, Bolg. Powerful, fearless, totally bloodthirsty who led massive armies of similar Orc’s. I suspect that in normal circumstances Orc young would never know their fathers, Bolg would have to be something exceptional for his sire to claim him. The Dunlendings, the Oath-breakers and probably, a lot of the Easterlings would probably be on the same sort of cultural level. The perfect breeding ground for Sauron to spread his cult. We're also told that around the Sea of Núrnen, in eastern Mordor, there were slave farms. Sauron did not lack for raw materials for his armies nor the will do use what he thought of as dross for his own ends.

@bojassettsd

Жыл бұрын

You write so well, if not for your regular abuse of apostrophes. An apostrophe is never required to form the plural version of a word. Unless you're in a part of the world that somehow has a different system for apostrophes?

@PatienceKiss

Жыл бұрын

I would say if you took a race and turned it into something fundamentally different with interbreeding, it could be considered a new race.

I like how Lotro designed the appearance of half-orcs. They look like they were described in the books. They could pass as ugly men by most people that no one would bat an eye to. Half-orcs and Uruk leaders from Isengard are a big deal in Lotro due to how they rally local orcs to use as a way from preventing the scattered groups of men, elves, ir dwarves in Eriador from uniting to prevent Angmar's rise. Like in the books, player characters have a rougher start than the fellowship since any race you start with gets dragged into small local problems before realizing the true threat of the rise of Angmar. I really hope one day you'll cover the Eriador lore of Lotro since it's so cool and gives Eriador purpose during that tumultuous time.

When reading the books I looked at it rather more easily based on our own human ideas of things. I took the "Goblin" Orcs to be the lower order of the race, like they were the ones o the fringes who were very common, but who kept themselves off to themselves. You see them all in the ground, in caverns and caves, hiding in the mines, and as such they are better adjusted for darkness and small spaces, so they are smaller and the sunlight blinds them hurting their eyes, so that is why the comment about why they cannot run in the sunlight, because they will be blind and defenseless, as opposed to running at night, where they can see better in the darkness than most any other race. Though they enjoy fighting and attacking others, they are not really the go-getters who seek these things out on purpose, but rather take advantage of it when such things present themselves in their own realms. The "Uruk" Orcs are the ones who are more soldiers, who are raised fighting and going on conquests, and as such they have no issues with being outside, thundering the ground with their massive army steps, invading lands and destroying people to take what they wish, like a vast army given permission to rape, pillage and destroy anything that they come across. But when faced with a larger force they will, like any soldier, second guess, and without strong leadership are likely to fall back from the "superior" or surprise threats facing them (like we see all of them move away from the stones being hurled across the field). Then the "Uruk-hai" Orcs are like the highest of the race, the generals and leaders, the ones who can strike out with smaller groups of more elite soldiers, like the ones who went after the Fellowship of the Ring, who have been trained and drilled into such strong beings they can run across the lands without tiring for long periods of time, and strike out with massive heavy weapons that any other race find too difficult to use, no matter how strong they are. They are sort of like the Marines of the Orc world: highly trained, more dedicated, and bloodthirsty for war to the point that the only thing that will stop them is death itself, which is not easy task at all when facing them.

I think this all just makes both the movie orcs and book orcs cooler. We can have differing sorts of the same kind in the book, and different kinds of basically the same thing but ultimately much different, unique creatures.

Glad to see the upload

My thoughts would be the difference is food. The "trained" orcs under Saruman were trained but also fed, while the "wilder" forms of orcs and goblins were left to fend for themselves, with stronger orcs taking more food while weaker orcs starve at the edges of their society. A starved population is smaller and less developed. There are so many orcs in moria that there is hardly anything to eat.

It's really interesting that he used Half-Orcs to ruin the Shire.

Off-topic but interesting that the Orks use bows of yew. The Yew tree in some folklores represents an omen of doom

@floridaknight3052

Жыл бұрын

An yew is how you actually pronounce Jew

my understanding from reading the books and reading between the lines were J.R.R. Tolkien said was this: the orcs in the misty mountains and Maria are descended directly from Morgoth’s breed. short, quickly reproducing, not very strong compared to the others. He was more interested in creating a vast army quickly. Not so much the quality. Sauron started improving the breed and trying to make them more intelligent, better fighting, more durable. And they will be the Urek. Saruman then took that same breed and mixed it with humans. you get a hint of this in Bree. and this is where you have the orcs that can finally withstand sunlight. A legacy from Morgoth’s breeding. in essence they are all the same race but different breeds. Just like humans have different breeds all over the world. Take for example how Americans are taller than Japanese. Doesn’t necessarily mean better one way or the other but carry different traits.

In the Hobbit, at the end of the chapter Queer Lodgings, Gandalf warns the company of "goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description" - seems like an odd thing to say if they were all orcs. Of course, the Hobbit was written before much of Middle Earth had been fleshed out, and it seems likely that Tolkien thought of goblins and orcs as distinct from one another at first. Much was ret-conned with Lord of the Rings, but some things remained - such as the quote from the Hobbit above. Then, of course, it is possible that orcs, hobgoblins and goblins are all different variants or subspecies of the same breed which are all orc. Just as Tolkien allows for several races of men, with distinguishing features in terms of physical appearance and temperament.

@taddad2641

Жыл бұрын

A large theme of tolkien is 'selective breeding' going on that was used to create various monsters thanks to morgoth. Dragons, his greatest creation, but also trolls and of course orcs themselves, so its entirely possible that various versions of orcs came from this much like there are various breeds of dogs, with specifics of several. Peter jackson went even further by making their creation in disgusting mud vats, making them even more artificial and unnatural.

@DanBeech-ht7sw

9 ай бұрын

Hob-goblins Hobbit -orc cross

Remember the mountain orcs may have had a somewhat Sméagol issue of not being used to the sun. Also the definition of “Stature” doesn’t only refer to size, but also “importance or reputation gained by ability or achievement.” So when they call themselves “fighting Uruk-Hai” I think of it as someone today referring to themselves as a Viking.

@patrickmccurry1563

2 жыл бұрын

Especially with how Viking was more a verb or profession of raiding, but become synonymous with the cultures. If all you see of a people are the big soldiers, then you'll likely get a bit of a distorted idea of who and what they are.

Thank you!! Especially that you mention that Orcs and Goblins are synonymous is extremely helpful and also true. I found it annoying that Gandalf says in The Fellowship of the Ring movie that Sting shines with a blue light (or is it Bilbo) when describing the blade to Frodo, "whenever Orcs or Goblins are near." This implies that they are two distinct races. In the Battle of the Five Armies movie, Thorin says to another Dwarf or Dwarves (is it Nori?) that there is a company of "Goblin" mercenaries (I think) which also implies that they're a distinct category. Besides, didn't Glamdring and Orcrist also shine with a blue light when Orcs were near in the books, or is that something I've got from MERP? Anyway, Tolkien does mention that there were extremely many different breeds of Orc, I think it must be assumed even since the time of Morgoth, and it's fairly obvious that the Uruk-hai were just one of these, albeit an especially large and strong variant, and not one of Morgoth's making. The two individuals that Frodo and Sam encounter on a road (more of a trail, I suppose) in Mordor are an excellent example of this. I think Tolkien implies that one of these could be a breed of Uruk-hai, but the other one certainly isn't. They are representatives of two different breeds, and the smaller one probably belongs to a sniffer or tracker variety. These subgroups or subraces are specifically bred for the tasks they will have in adult life (although I'm sure there are mongrels and products or random genetics too) in much the same way as horses and dogs. Finally, and I got this from David Day's "A Tolkien Bestiary" which is a secondary source apparently based on "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Silmarillion" (as it was probably written before the publication of "The Unfinished Tales" and "The History of Middle-earth"), it does say that the Uruk-hai '... in the year 2475 of the Third Age... came out of Mordor...' clearly implying that they were Sauron's rather than Saruman's doing.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

Very good points. Yeah you're absolutely right that Glamdring and Orcrist both glow blue in the books.

I had long assumed that the extra-large, seemingly more intelligent and eviler Uruk-hai of Isengard were the direct result of Saruman's interbreeding of Orcs and Men. My guess was that these Breedings had various results (sometimes producing the larger, stronger orcs like Ugluk, sometimes producing half-orcs that could pass as human (like the spy in Bree), and probably some weaker types that didn't last long.

If their bows were the length of the bows of men, I would imagine the Uruk-hai would at least be about man-size or they would probably not be able to use them very effectively.

I always read this in the books, especially with mentions of goblin men early on, that the Urukai were so much bigger and more cunning because Saruman had introduced human blood. That the Urukai of Isengard WERE goblin men. This also always pointed to Saruman's long-lasting corruption, as breeding/training them would have taken years, if not generations. 🤷🏻‍♀️

its so lovely to see so many good tolkien channels, great video

The most enlightening thing respecting Orcs, to me, is the discussion between Gorbag and Shagrat that Sam over hears as their men take Frodo up to their tower. There you get the sense that Orcs too remember thousands of years of history, seen from their own perspectives of course, and you get the sense more than anywhere else that they are not monsters, but a sort of people, corrupted yes, but originating in the first and second children of Iluvatar.

Dude i've missed you a lot!!! Please keep your hard work going on

When you go “uuuggh” over half-orc breeding mechanics at time stamp 13:57 🤣🤣🤣

Do glad you back. Great video! Looking forward to you continuing the story of the elves in the first age!

@tolkienuntangled

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I can't wait to get back to the First Age!!

As a Portuguese, goblins were translated as “gnomo” (gnome) in the Hobbit books and orcs in the LOTR books were initially translated as gnomo aswell in the older editions. I remember being young watching the LOTR movies and not realising what the difference was bc I was used to Portuguese using the same term for everything…

Great stuff! I haven’t read the books, but in the Fellowship of the Ring movie, Saruman makes reference to the Fighting Uruk-hai! Man, those movies are so entertaining!

Great video! Now I'm fascinated by Half Orcs.

I feel like the films implied that the Uruk-Hai WERE the half-orcs mentioned in the books. I've personally taken that to be the case for years. It keeps it neater in my head

Rainbow Dave: *Comment for the ‘rithm* while rewatching your older videos 🤘

Thanks for another great video Dave. One very minor point, at 6:25, is that I believe Orcs were created during the years of the trees and not during the first age. Really glad to hear that you are going to be making more videos. I know how much time it must take to make these videos especially with the care and quality you are producing. I find your videos very informative. For instance, I never knew that goblins were Orcs. Thanks again

@tolkienuntangled

3 жыл бұрын

That's a very good point, you're absolutely right about orcs first appearing in the Years of the Trees (or the Years of Starlight - same time period), I guess I misspoke. I'm really glad you enjoyed the video!

@forn8473

2 жыл бұрын

Actually, he's not wrong. The First Age began with the Awakening of the Elves, and Tolkien has stated that it was the longest of all the Ages, and that the Exile of the Noldor happened at the end of the First Age. However, many people belief the First Age to start with the rise of the Sun. This is due to a Tolkien scholar who tried to chronicle the First Age of the Silmarillion - and due to the difference in length, he made the choice to start the First Age count with the Years of the Sun. However, this same scholar noted that "1 YS" would've been better than "1 FA", but he wanted it to be the same format as the Tale of Years from LotR, so decided on 1 FA.

@AlyssMa7rin

2 жыл бұрын

@@forn8473 the Silmarillion notes the passage of Ages during Melkor’s Imprisonment

@forn8473

2 жыл бұрын

@@AlyssMa7rin Yes, Melkor was imprisoned for three ages. However, these were Valian Ages, which is a defined length of time (100 Years of the Trees according to Morgoth's Ring, so roughly 2800 Years of the Sun). So these should not be confused with the Ages of the Children - and both can be used alongside each other.

Their diets could played a difference in size. Isengardes Orcs could have been better fed than the Orcs of Moria.

I am glad to have found you, new subscriber here! You got me the moment I started the black numenorean video. From there it was the ringwraith video, now this orc video, and rest assured, soon all of your existing content to catch up on! well done.

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

I'm really glad you found the channel too. Thanks very much!

I always considered Uruks, Sauron's improvement upon Morgoth's orcs, and then he gave recipe to breed them to Saruman so they can double their Soldier output

#freeDunland

Great analysis 🔥

Still finding videos I haven't watched yet. Thank you again brother.

Thank you for your great and very informative video. When I was a student at University studying Engineering, and in my spare time playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (AD&D) and reading Tolkien lore with my friends the following definitions seemed to be commonly accepted: Goblins: Smaller size Orcs, who had developed a diminutive stature and other specialisations from living underground and in cramped tunnels. Orcs: Original, generic, medium-sized creatures bred by Morgoth in Utumno in the very beginning of the First Age from captured Elves that he corrupted in his dungeons. Uruk-Hai: Larger, straight-limbed and light-tolerant Orcs at first bred by Sauron in Mordor and later perfected by Saruman in Isengard (both Sauron and Saruman were Maiar of Aule the smith Valar). Half-Orcs: Although there is some debate as to whether Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman first bred these creatures from a mixing of Orcs and Humans, I do remember reading one Tolkien commentary (and I’m trying to put this as delicately as I can) saying that by the times of the “Lord of the Rings”, Saruman may have been breeding them directly by forced interbreeding between his Orc servants and human captives imprisoned his dungeons under Orthanc (if this is true then by the War of the Ring, Saruman’s behaviour would have become truly monstrous). Also I do remember reading by the time of the Battle of Helm’s Deep he had created many such creatures to serve with his armies of Uruk-Hai, and some of them were so deceptively human-looking that he liked to use them as spies. Thank you again Rainbow Dave for your excellent commentary, and I hope this information shines some extra light on this very difficult and complex topic.

@simonperring2546

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for the Like, Rainbow Dave. 🙂👍

I like to think of Goblins as a lower breed of Ork that is used as cannon fodder. smaller, weaker, but vast numbers, much like the Grunts in Halo, with Orcs being the Elites, the Uruks being Brutes, and Trolls being Hunters. so, even though they are all actually the same, I still like to use the Covenant's classes and rankings to tell the difference between each. it also makes it a little more fun because it adds verity to Sauron's army. imagen playing Halo and when you fight against the Covenant, it's just Grunts, Grunts, and more Grunts. nothing but Grunts everywhere. no Elites, no Brutes, just Grunts. so, in my opinion, I prefer there being differences between Orcs and Goblins. But this is just my opinion.

And Goblin-men? Just another term for half-orcs.

I think in the movies they changed the half orcs into the Uruk-hai because there is a line that gandalf mentions the Uruk-hai were creating by interbreeding orcs with goblin men.

Yes another video! 🙌🏼 thank you!

Could “Uruk-Hai” aka “Orc-Folk” refer to Saruman’s “Half-Orcs” if that phrase is only in reference to his Uruks? Like in they are half-orc and half-“folk” like men?

How I figure Peter Jackson's ranking system. Goblins were the first of the Orc race they are significantly weaker than Orcs but are just as crafty. They blatantly run from the sun at the break of day in most situations like Stone Trolls the dark magic that created them is unrefined. Orcs are a stronger breed of Goblin able to survive longer in sun light hardier but still cunning. The Dark magic used on them was improved either by Morgoth or Sauron making adjustments. And Uruks are Sauron making the final conclusions of breeding Orcs they are as big and strong as Men, they are crafty, cunning, and can last nearly just as long under the Sun as most men. With that established I believe there are exceptions to the rule as far as the three breeds are concerned Hobgoblins, Black Orcs, and the "Lurts". They are essentially the the strongest, Smartest, hardiest outcome of each breed. The white hybrids the Great Goblin, Azog, Bolg, Sharku, Gothmog, and the Lurts they are all the best of their respected breeds but they aren't alone in that category. The most commonly known Black Orc is a good overall term for them. Mount Gundabad was the birth place of the Dwarves and the greatest spoil of conquest the Orc races ever stole from them. It would only make sense that the strongest of the Goblins, Orcs, and Uruks would gather their strength to hold such a place. My belief is that this gathering lead to a mass breeding of the strongest of this fourth breed of Orcs. All pale white skinned just as big if not bigger than men. This is my belief as far as Peter Jackson's version of events.

I always thought it was implied Uruk-Hai were bred distinctly to be bigger, stronger and resistant to light, to me that is stated in the quote that Saruman created Men-Orcs and Orc-Men, Uruk-Hai and Half-Orcs

Really enjoying this channel.

Orcs terrified me as a child!

I’m really surprised you missed this point: the reason Isengard Uruks are more disciplined is because Saruman has a RING! They are under its influence. It’s interesting how Tolkien never made a big deal out of Saruman’s ring, but it’s influence can be seen in the story, if you know where to look!

And based on this video, alone, you have earned a new *Subscriber* this day! 🙏🏻🥰❤️

Stumbled upon your channel after Jenson's schill video for Amazons farce of Power. I have been bingeing since

Merlin predicted his own threefold death: falling, impaled, drowning. This reminded me of the death of saruman in the movie. In the book does he have a threefold death or just a betrayal?

@tolkienuntangled

3 жыл бұрын

That's really interesting. I'd never made that connection. In the book he doesn't have any of those three thing happen. He just has his throat slit by Wormtongue after Frodo refuses to take his life himself. Although there is a really cool moment where Saruman's naked spirit rises out of his withering body, faces the West (the direction he'd some from), and is then blown off into the east by a wind of Valinor.

@mlebrooks

3 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled thank you so much for the reply. Your videos are really cool. I like your whole channel!

@alanpennie8013

2 жыл бұрын

@@mlebrooks Christopher Lee has to receive an epic death. Though sadly it was left out of the theatrical cut.

Sooo... Where to start... First, im german, and to be honest, i dont knew that the word "Orc" was ancient german. The describtion in lord of the Rings falls for me under "Dunkelelf" or darkelf, not under the terms of Goblins, trolls or anything other german legend. A bigger Goblin would be described as a Troll like Goblin or it would be refered to a special kind with "Goblin" or "Troll" in its name, "Berggoblins" (Mountaingoblins) for example. Not that i want simplify my own Language, but most Nomen or names for things say you what it does. Rohrzange for example: a tong on a tube with a mechanism to let the tongs press themself together. Orc mostly comes out of latin Orcus which means something like underworld. So a Orc is something out of the underworld, which would be a earthdemon or a ghost of nature, maybe even a demon out of hell itself, but not a Goblin, which mostly are inhabitants of woods and mountains and not half as terrible as a Orc in Lord of the Rings OR a Troll. Goblins are spirits of nature which are bold creatures (like Rumpelstielzchen) but not bad over the point of no return...

Good job ! Would've like the Tree beard quote in there, but still pretty complete.

The spidery ones in the Misty Mountains are my favorite.

Orc is to Goblin as Homosapien is to Human, from my understanding. Orcs and Uruks are kind of like different subspecies of say, cats or dogs, the same with different features.

I feel like it's a tier system. Goblins are the smallest and weakest of them compensating with largest numbers. Then the orcs are bigger and stronger and can use greater weapons. Then there's the Uruks, the largest and greatest of the species. With the greatest height, strength and durability of them all.

@davidwright7193

2 жыл бұрын

That distinction was created by Gary Gygax and Co-authors not by Tolkien.

First time seeing your work. Very nice.

Great video. Earned a subscription.

I've come under the belief that orc is less a race but a state of being created through deprivation. Some once being elves, maier or men.

Very interesting and informative. My question is, if Saruman didn't breed orcs in pods, and they were bred in the normal manner, why do we never see a female orc?

@tolkienuntangled

2 жыл бұрын

That's a very good question, and the short answer is we don't know. Although I would speculate that because orcs are so hateful, and they're bred primarily for war, male and females might just be completely indistinguishable from one another. Perhaps half of Sauron's orc army are female? Perhaps half the orcs in Moria are female?

@rjstram

2 жыл бұрын

It's always been my head canon that the leader of the Uruk-hai that kills Boromir and fights Aragorn at the end of the Fellowship movie is 100% a badass female Uruk. Her look and even the way she moves just screams lethal femininity. Rewatch that scene with this in mind and see if you agree!

@rosshugecaulk

Жыл бұрын

@@rjstramjust did, can't see it at all. Lurtz is too male looking

Great info! Thank you!

Well said. All throughout Tolkien's writings, he refers to Orcs at various times as throw backs to the old days when Morgoth was King. It's just that every once and a while they need a Dark Lord to come along and invigorate them. It is strongly implied that Saruman's breed of Uruks (and confirmed in Morgoth's Ring) are a cross-breed of Uruks and men. Saruman, in his research, had rediscovered an ancient practice of interbreeding orcs & men. Many of Saruman's forces are referred to as "half-orcs" and "goblin-men." That is why the orcs of Isengard are larger, more resilient and sunlight tolerant than their brethren in other places. Even if Ugluk & his crew were not exactly 'half-orcs,' they were no doubt of result of that breeding experiment.

Uruk and Uruk-hai are used the same way as man and mankind. Snaga are to the Uruks as the Helots were to the Spartans. Sauruman bred half orcs, who were bigger, more cunning and had no problems being outside in the sun.

I had to laugh so hard when you told that Tolkien later realised that he didn't want Anglo-Norman traces in his languages 🤣 I mean, I think William I. earnt his nickname of "Bastard", and I think Harold should have remained king, but I wonder why it's this one of several changes in who rules England or Britain that he considers to be the worst. Is there like a commonly negative view on the Normans in British society?

@tolkienuntangled

3 жыл бұрын

Haha good question. I guess the Norman invasion was the last time any king invaded Britain and changed the language of the nation. I read somewhere that modern English is one of the very few languages that has different words for the meat of an animal, and the animal itself. I believe this is because of the Norman invasion. After being conquered, the wealthy people of England, who were privileged enough to eat meat on a daily basis, would all have been the French speaking Norman elites. So they used words like beef (boeuf), pork (porche), and poultry (poulet). But the poor working class peasants who actually raised the animals before their slaughter, were all Old English speaking Anglo Saxons, so they used Germanic words like cow, pig, and chicken. Tolkien was way more into the old Germanic culture of the Anglo Saxon than the French speaking Normans, and he blamed them for destroying England's historical connection to it's Anglo Saxon and Celtic roots. And to be honest, they totally were responsible. The oldest accounts of King Arthur are all written in French, despite Arthur being a quintessentially Celtic British figure. However there is one name in the Lord of the Rings that totally is a French sounding name. Sackville (as in the Sackville-Bagginses). And Tolkien specifically described this family as overly fancy middle-class Hobbits who he associated with Normans in British society. They're the kind of pretentious people (in Tolkien's mind) that would say they live in cul-de-sac (which is obviously a French word). He would have much preferred a literal Old English translation - bag end. Tolkien was a massive language nerd 😆

@Crafty_Spirit

3 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled Very interesting, thanks :-) Though I think one could just as well construe the Anglosaxons as the destroyers of 'native' British culture or even the Romans. But a difference of course is that the brutal (?) invasion and conquest (?) by Germanic tribes occured during the Dark Ages while the Norman's actions are recorded better and displayed on the tapestry of Bayeux, which displays a realistic picture of war motivated by greed and lust for power. Oh and I almost forgot, so here's an edit: while Gaelic christianity retained and reshaped Celtic perspectives and was adopted by the Anglo-Saxons, the Normans imposed (I think, though not sure) their Catholic faith on their new subjects, and that branch of Christianity fits an imperial system, not a faith like the Gaelic one where obedience and submission is less of a theme. Ironic though as Tolkien was Catholic by heart. Great video, by the way. I thought that Uruk-Hai, too, have genetic admixture from men, and that this granted the resistance to sunlight. If Uglúk's remark regarding training was accurate however, then it may indicate that orcs could develop a tolerance through exposure... and perhaps some magic?

@tolkienuntangled

3 жыл бұрын

@@Crafty_Spirit yeah, very true! From the perspective of the native Celts, the Romans, Saxons, and Danes were all just as brutal and destructive. That's a really interesting point about Gaelic religion among the dark age English!

@alanpennie8013

2 жыл бұрын

@@tolkienuntangled You can read in Bede how the Irish missionaries annoyed The Pope by persuading many of the Northern English to celebrate Easter on a different date from Rome.

@katherinewilson1853

2 жыл бұрын

One of the primary reasons LotR was composed was due to his desire to create an Anglo mythos devoid of Norman influence. Arthur, the primary faerytale people associate with Britain now is of Norman heritage. Tolkien wanted to create a more ancient heritage, in keeping with the fractured pieces of Beowulf, The Icelandic Sagas, the Kalevala, and Norse tales. The Gaelic tales we have left are also very piecemeal, and totally separate in culture and language to English. They have separate culture, and he does each culture linguistic credit beautifully. So he was attempting to be faithful to the Anglo heritage prior to Latin influence. He did an astounding, gorgeous job. It's a philological labour of love, and not a grudge.

I loved what the movid adaptetions did with the different orc breeds. I also tend to think about it from a WW1 standpoint, since Tolkien wrote lotr somewhat of memories from that time. That surely the enemies were somewhat the same, but yet unkown and there for a little mysterious of the origins of the orcs

i love your videos!! Thank you!!!

If elves breed so slowly, and orcs are twisted destroyed elves, how are there always so many orcs?

@totallytravicious5919

2 ай бұрын

Two months later and still no one has answered?? Now I'm genuinely curious. Did you ever find an answer

@OublietteTight

2 ай бұрын

@@totallytravicious5919 sort of. On a related thread someone speculated that the corruption process basically fried their life span? I wondered if their ruin involved cross breeding with humans? But that is just me winging it. Apparently living much shorter lives makes goblins, orcs, etc more fertile though? There are a lot of them. Way more than the 3 (?) elf kingdoms? So, yeah, not really an answer. Sauran had the entire Eastlands for breeding. p.s. why is Westland capitalized but not earth?

@DeepFleeceheart

2 ай бұрын

In-world andwer: Orcs were bred, elves werent Real-world answer: movies need slaughter fodder for action scenes

@OublietteTight

2 ай бұрын

@@DeepFleeceheart no doubt on the fodder

Orcs are blacks, Goblins are Jews, and Uruks are Asians. The story is from the perspective of Anglo-Saxons. We can see this is true today, nothing has changed.

@Praxeus514

Жыл бұрын

🤦🏻‍♂️

@GreatGreebo

Жыл бұрын

🤦🏻‍♀️

2:30 Ethnic Russians live basically right next door to ethnic Japanese. There is a huge average size difference between...

I roughly remember a passage in the two-towers, in which was about Saruman breeding orc with goblin-men.

WOW! Thanks rainbow dave, talking untangled has never been better. Cheers my bro!

@tolkienuntangled

Жыл бұрын

Thanks man!

Uruks are more like other fantasy orcs, but technically they'd be all considered goblinkin or orcish. Mordor had different variations of orcs than "wild" orcs, they appear more grey and fit for darkness. ALSO I noticed gundabad orcs didn't mind sunlight in the movies idk if it was day time in the book but it's interesting to note

One way I look at it, basically the difference is less about them being different species, but really its more a divide between Social Standings, "Nationalities", Cultures, Up bringing and History

I think there's still enough in the text to suggest that the Uruk-Hai are "super" orcs but you've at least given me something to consider

I like how Peter Jackson made it seemed like they evolved more into their environment. The goblins in the mountains having big eyes and ears, the uruk being huge and good runners vs the climbing goblins, and so on.

You said that orcmen weren't in the LOTR's movies, but I swear I remember hearing that Saruman had crossbred Orcs with man making them capable of moving in the sunlight. Does anybody else remember this?

That bit about the half-orcs made my blood run cold. That's horrific to think about

This is something i was really pondering when watching the movies XD