I think Goblins are simply a subcategory of Orcs. They seem smaller and more mischievous, not under the influence/control of a dark lord. Such as the goblins of Goblintown and Moria. That said, I think the 'real' answer is Tolkien used the term Goblin in The Hobbit because it was in the lexicon and would be a recognizable word to children. But then changed to using the term Orc in The Lord of the Rings because he was then writing for an older audience AND probably had done more world building at that point.

@xavier84623

3 жыл бұрын

also it make sense because hobbits live in the west, and orcs further west would be further away from the influence of mordor and possibly more ancient because they were insular and not selectively bred as they were not directly part of the forces of mordor. so the smaller weaker mischievous more ancient breeds of western orcs have been come to to be called goblins because of the lexicon of the people in the area and the evolution of orc into distinct sub-species.

@kendrahrook418

3 жыл бұрын

I like the video's conclusion. That goblin is more "modern common" while orc was from the old speech. The interchangeable goblin, hobgoblin, orc and uruk kind of lends some credence to that

@balrog262

3 жыл бұрын

Well, they do serve Sauron.

I always thought that goblins were 'feral' orcs; orcs not directly commanded by the Dark Lord, but rather living the 'dream' that Gorbag and Shagrat are heard talking about.

@marcusblackwell2372

2 жыл бұрын

Feral isn't the right word, because they still have something of a fair intelligence (as far as An Unexpected Journey is concerned). Rogue seems more accurate

@concept5631

Жыл бұрын

@@marcusblackwell2372 Renegade?

@marcusblackwell2372

Жыл бұрын

​@@concept5631 Indeed

@concept5631

Жыл бұрын

@@marcusblackwell2372 Renegade Orcs

@Spartan-Of-Truth

Күн бұрын

Great point!

"What about there legs, they don't need those." "They are not for eating!" Love these movies so much! Thanks for the upload!

@brodieknight772

4 жыл бұрын

"Go on... Squeeeal! Ain't no one gonna save you now" *someone saves them*

@addiesanford2974

4 жыл бұрын

Sander Skolvy probaby "their" but I didn't read the transcript so Im not exactly sure lol.

@clzm90

4 жыл бұрын

"INSPECTION!"

@TheWoodsmanMilling

4 жыл бұрын

@Sander Skovly being an orc... either one is possible.

@samanthafox3124

2 жыл бұрын

*their

"The age of Men is over! The time or the Orc has come!" - Gothmog

@BlueGhostofSeaside

4 жыл бұрын

"Golodir is bound to me. As long as he lives I cannot die." - Gothmog.

Where there's a whip, there's a way. Where there's a whip, there's a way. We don't wanna go to war today, but the lord of the lash says "Nay-nay-nay!" We're gonna march all day, all day, all day! Where there's a whip there's a way.

@Quaronna

4 жыл бұрын

Lol

@fenrir-art4742

4 жыл бұрын

I remember that.

@blitsriderfield4099

4 жыл бұрын

oh gosh, just reading that got it stuck in my head

@Professor_Bugs

3 жыл бұрын

@Jerrol Hale Such a witty and bright comment! :-) Yet i hope your work is more fulfilling than it implies

I'm a father of 3 and don't always have the time to read and enjoy my 2nd religion. With your help, I've been able to dive deeper into Middle-Earth and its seemingly endless history. Thanks for making these videos man. They are rich in detail and when I double check to see if you were right about something, you always are 😂 Cheers 🍻

I'm glad Tolkien stuck with the creation of the Orcs by Melkor as an affront to Elves and Illuvatar. Like it says, it's the worst sin he did and showed the pure evil and malice of his character.

Would love to see a theory video on the fate of the orcs in the 4th age.

@smoke2351

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed, I think they were wiped out in the end but wouldn't it be nice to know they finally became their own race with something to offer besides death and carnage

@sirandrelefaedelinoge

4 жыл бұрын

They turned into Flying Monkeys...

@NoName-fc3xe

4 жыл бұрын

Didn't Will Smith make a crappy movie about that? Lol

@smoke2351

4 жыл бұрын

@Jason Baird I am legend, never seen it myself but it's been riffed on enough that it's pop culture, hell I haven't seen the omega man which IAL is based on and I love Vincent Price

@glennross85

4 жыл бұрын

@Jason Baird Bright (2017) www.imdb.com/title/tt5519340/ Dont waste your time, the movie co-opts fantasy creatures to promote hollywood politics and has nothing to do with Tolkien lore.

"The secret fire, which is life & free will" This brings a much deeper meaning to Gandalf's words in Moria when he's facing the balrog. "I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor".

@forgalzz7

4 жыл бұрын

He basically identifies himself as a good-aligned maja, that's what that first part means. Not sure about the "wielder of the flame of Anor", though. Anor is the sun, but Olorin had no particular affiliation to any sun-related activities in Valinor that we know of, nor any known relation to its guardian Arien. But then we do now know much about his early life. Arien is a fire maja like the balrogs, but more powerful, so maybe Gandalf was trying to impress him by hinting at some connection to her? Or is it a veiled reference to his fire ring?

@TheItalianPepe

4 жыл бұрын

@@forgalzz7 yeah I agree with you. I think you are right about the fire ring. The name of his ring is Narya, the Ring of Fire. So maybe, yes? lol

@randomdude2026

3 жыл бұрын

@@forgalzz7 He calls the Balrog "Flame of Udun", which means "Flame of Utumno", as Udun is another word for Utumno. So maybe he just clarifies that, in comparisson to the Balrog, who is a Fire-Maiar that uses the dark flames of Melkor, he, Olorin/Gandalf, uses the "good" fire of a Fire-Maiar, that does not bow to Melkor.

This is honestly my favorite channel. It's rare to see videos made purely out of love for a subject. Your narration is awesome too!

@blakecharres

4 жыл бұрын

here here

@Horus45

3 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately I just learned that a lot of his content is plagiarised. There's written posts on Reddit that pre-date his videos that he is essentially using as a scriot, where he obviously is just reading the written content of others on topics he likes the look of.

May i request you read the books out loud for us? I really like the way you read and give life to the expressions.

@ingwiafraujaz3126

4 жыл бұрын

Respectfully disagree. I find the over-dramatization / emphasis on most words a little distracting. I'd prefer only voice acting for character's lines, not quotes and regular text.

@joesheridan5562

4 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't mind knowing how he would Tom's songs.

@warhammerHighElf

4 жыл бұрын

If you haven't heard Rob Inglis narrate the books, I would highly recommend it!

@deltanovember1672

4 жыл бұрын

Joe Sheridan Oh ye gods, Bombadil’s bloody songs.

Ive lost everything in my personal life but this channel helps me keep going. Thank you, Men of the West.

@MenoftheWest

4 жыл бұрын

Keep strong, my friend! Aurë entuluva! There is always hope!

@nuclearjanitors

4 жыл бұрын

@@MenoftheWest you have no idea how much this channel means to me. Thank you so much.

@nuclearjanitors

4 жыл бұрын

@E. R. I'm not ok. I've been battling a horrible addiction which has been with me for nearly a decade. I've lost everything that i love and hold dear except my life and for that, i am lucky. Thanks for reaching out, it means more than you know. I'm holding the line but barely. I don't know how i keep going but i do. Thank you.

@nuclearjanitors

4 жыл бұрын

@E. R. I'm out of the hospital and clean. Just walking amongst the ruins and counting the death toll, at this point. Thanks for the concern, friend.

@laplantefelix8310

4 жыл бұрын

@@nuclearjanitors life can put you in extremely difficult situations to fight, but in the end the light always resurfaces, it's only a matter of time and hope -But in the end it’s only a passing thing, this shadow; even darkness must pass.’ - Samwise Gamgee I hope the best for you, and remember you are not alone

Something interesting is how in Return of the King, two Orcs (I believe Shagrat and Grishnakh) discuss Mordor before Sauron's return and have a little bit of nostalgia of those days.

@williamt.sherman9841

4 жыл бұрын

orcs don't love Sauron. at best they understand that they kind of need him. but they don't love him. its clear they hate and fear him.

“Otherwise this video would go on for hours with no end.” Me: I’d be fine with that.

Oh yes, just as I'm about to eat some finest fruit tarts for dessert, this vid came out for the channel. Thank you for re-uploading this vid Yoystan!😊 I really appreciate it!

@sirandrelefaedelinoge

4 жыл бұрын

What, no Lembas...?

@Fenixias

2 жыл бұрын

​@@sirandrelefaedelinoge Ahh, it tries to choke us! We can't eat Hobbit food! We muust staaaaaaaarrveee...

I thought the LOTR appendices made it clear that goblin was just the hobbit term for an orc.

I'd like to know more about the nameless things that gnaw the earth, what Gandalf saw in the depths of Moria during his Balrog fight that he wouldn't elaborate to Frodo about

@skengbiscuit279

4 жыл бұрын

We all would but there is nothing else written

@davis.fourohfour

4 жыл бұрын

Those gnawers in the deep places popped up in the third Hobbit movie and everyone screamed Peter Jackson had just made them up. Those giant diggers in the battle of the Five Armies, remember? Peter read the books.

@Spartan-Of-Truth

Күн бұрын

Knowing Tolkiens work (and perhaps lore), you could envision what Tolkien might have played next on that if he chose to. I bet a lot of how he plays his hand at creating alternate realities is strongly tied to mostly his personal experience.

Hey Yoystan so happy you uploaded it's a great way to start a Monday morning.

"A new order will rise. We will drive the machinery of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fist of the Orc."

I love lore like this! I’m writing and publishing my first dark epic fantasy novel and I love watching content like this for motivation

you're one of my favorite lore channels

I like to think of Goblins and Orcs as different just because it makes it more interesting. And the Goblins look really neat in the Fellowship movie.

@sebthesasquatch9532

4 жыл бұрын

I agree, I like to think Goblins are Elves and Orcs are humans

I think Shadow of War gives us an interesting look into Orc society, and themselves as individuals. They have hopes, fear, rivalries. They even tend to call you out on being an absolute monster, or saying something that's pretty deep.

@foulmoodcentral2830

4 жыл бұрын

yes but they are far removed from the original source material to consider being the same creatures from the books. I love the game but it should be viewed and treated separately.

@ZombiePotatoSalad

4 жыл бұрын

@@foulmoodcentral2830 True. However, the source material doesn't give much info into their society, as far as I know (I never read the books). For example, I was curious how... well, how new Orcs are made (aside from the Uruk-Hai in the movie).

@foulmoodcentral2830

4 жыл бұрын

@@ZombiePotatoSalad They are bred, throughout the books it is stated. but it is left deliberately vague because of the horror or disgusting nature of the practices. the video game talks about them spawning from vats and going back to those vats when they die. recycling in being and memories. you can find them in Cirith Ungol. deep in the caves there's a lot of thick mud puddles that bubble and burn when you throw orcs into it. its a spawning ground. or maybe just the filthy remains of it. Uruk-Hai from the Isengard variety where stated to be a bred mix between men and goblins so as to withstand sunlight. the oldest orcs were simply corrupted elves made to breed by morgoth after he had twisted what made them elves.

@foulmoodcentral2830

4 жыл бұрын

@@ZombiePotatoSalad sadly we don't get to see much about their society from the original works. but thats why the game is so great with giving us a new look at them.

No views, seven likes, Sounds about right

@abhishekharge6691

4 жыл бұрын

Views are counted and verified, likes just get updated in realtime.

Definitely been looking forward to this one for a while now! ^^

“The secret fire, which is life and free will” I’m keeping those words near to my heart in these truly dark times

I haven’t watched one of your videos in a while so I’m about to binge watch them all

Fun thought; there are two words for goblin in Swedish. Svartalver and Vättar. The former translates directly to Black Elves, and has close ties to the old norse mythology of dark elves. It is especially fitting given the lotr origin of orcs however, even if it's for goblin. Vättar however is not as clear cut anymore, it generally refers to creatures who live beneath humans houses, some are considered fond of trickery and thievery, others are sometimes thought of as "house elves", little helpers. The meaning has simply become too blurred over generation. But in modern translations of english fantasy it is sometimes used for goblin.

From what i remember from i believe the fellowship of the ring, orcs are said to be basically bigger versions of goblins, so i think they share an orgin and only differ in terms of size

Love the update. My personal thoughts towards the orc and goblin debate: I believe that goblins are a smaller and weaker species of orc.

Great video once again. I always think of Orcs and Goblins being mainly the same but Goblins always being abit smaller (because of different Fantasy Franchises mainly).

Great video ! I love the mystery in some aspects of Tolkien's work.

"in defeating evil, we must not become evil", you sir, have earned a sub

@Conn30Mtenor

4 жыл бұрын

"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche

I haven’t watch a men of the west video in about a year, it great to be back, and I love the video, keep up the great work

The one who said looks like meats back on the menu was an optimist I think he's overlooked for his positive thinking

@Cowboybounty

4 жыл бұрын

I love it hahaha , the thinker of orcs hahaha

What if Tolkien wrote dragons as originally Maiar that ended up in Arda with some siding with Morgoth while others stayed good instead of them all being creations of Morgoth?

In "The Tolkien Companion" (J.E.A. Tyler), goblins get a one-line definition: A translation of the Grey-elven yrch (sing. orch). Orcs, on the other hand, get a four-page write-up.

I still hope that there were some good orcs who at some moment defied their evil masters who crippled them in the first time. I wonder, if it is so, could they actually survive and in future become more cordial towards other races? Although they would not become elves again, they could become improved versions of orcs who started to live in peace and serve the Good.

I was fascinated by orcs from early childhood on... so glad i got to read Tolkien... his Orcs are still the best and most bad ass! Snaga , Grishnakh and Gorbag still are my favs...

Regarding the Battle of Green Fields, the exact same group are called both Goblins and Orcs between books. The Hobbit: "If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realize that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took’s great-grand-uncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul’s head clean off with a wooden club." LotR, Appendix B: "Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing."

i think orc and goblins are the same just a different name. the movies seemed to depict them as different and this is why i think it's such a debated topic

great video, but im sad you didnt discuss how orcs reproduce! this is something i have wondered about for a long time but never found any answers in all the tolkien books i have read

@MenoftheWest

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the support, my friend! While I don’t discuss it at great length, the quote at the beginning of the video somewhat answers that question. They seem to reproduce in a manner similar and after the way of the Children of Ilúvatar. I hope that helps answer that question!

@SkylordNiko

4 жыл бұрын

@@MenoftheWest ah, i was hoping theres some mention of female orcs or how their families and homes work somewhere. nevertheless thank you friend, i have been watching these for a very long time, keep up the great work!!!

"...... Otherwise this video might go on for hours without end...." how dare you give us such hope! haha. Love ya vids mate. I COULD listen to you for hours on these various subjects!

Hello yoystan first I’d like to say great video, and second here’s my theory about the differences between orcs and goblins. I think they were their own race until morgoth saw their characteristics and used them in his creation of the orcs since goblins are smaller than orcs he must have made sure to make them taller when he corrupted the elves into orcs. And I’d also like to share my theory about the orcs in the fourth age, I think your right they could have been wiped out by the free people’s, or they fled to places not populated by the free peoples and left alone in exchange that Aragorn made them vow never to return to the free lands again and thus after thousands of years orcs finally lived in peace and freedom.

@hughgedney3393

4 жыл бұрын

It's very possible.

@jesuscoyt-munoz2753

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

i love how you pull from so many different sources! also how you give a warning or challenge at the end of your videos. they are so cool!

To me, goblins and orcs being related but different appeals to me but after your explanation I can see them just being interchangeable words.

It seemed like Goblins and Orcs had a Human/Hobbit like relation going on. Weren't hobbits technically men?

Well if orcist is also known as the goblin cleaver, and glows both in the presence of orc and goblins they could be the same or used interchangeably. It could also mean that the goblins are a subspecies of orcs?

Now i have lend my copy of 'The Hobbit' to a 'friend' who has yet to return it.. It has been over a year.. But i believe it stated in the beginning, as a note from Tolkien, that the word 'orc' was used to signify a large goblin, sometimes referred to as a hobgoblin. But would have to get my book back in order to confirm, and give a real reference! Moral of the story: do not lend books to scallywag orcs OR goblins!

I kinda wish that some Orcs were cleansed, or healed, because most of them look to hate life and themselves, and they just get killed without a second thought by other characters and species.

"Goblins" seemed to be able to climb walls in The Fellowship of the Ring. "Orcs" were surely never known to be able to do this?

I wish they would make a rpg similar to the elder scrolls, based on Tolkien's work

@Myth_or_Mystery76

3 жыл бұрын

There was a Diablo like Lord of the Rings RPG for the GBA.

@someoneuppingdudetechnical6320

2 жыл бұрын

No major RPG publisher apparently wants to pay the rights lol

@XJonAye

2 жыл бұрын

Well in retro spec I guess that most fantasy rpgs are based on Tolkiens work,

Honestly? I kinda like to view orcs and goblins as separate species under the same genus like the various elf and dwarf species of other fantasy universes like WoW or the forgotten realms. I also like the idea of Morgoth’s armies being made up of many creatures, some corrupted, some created, filling in various positions and also to kinda parallel the free folk (elves orcs, hobbits goblins ect)

Orcs are perfected elves, or "Elf mk 2." They got rid of the tree hugging and replaced it with industrial might!

@TerrariaGolem

3 жыл бұрын

lol

“The age of men is over.....the time of the orc has come!” These creatures are as fascinating to me as they are evil. Melkor took elves and filled them with evil but then he was able to “breed” them? The amateur biologist in me wants to know how this was accomplished and maintained throughout the ages. Is that wrong? Oh well As for the goblin/orc question I always assumed they were two different species entirely; I mean orcs could at least withstand the light for a time but goblins were not able to at all. But perhaps they are part of the same family tree, the same way there are many different types of trolls just suited to different environments and functions for evil. Or perhaps during the making of orcs tutorials Melkor had a few test runs that went wrong, called them goblins, swept them under the rug, until he made the right ones......who knows🤷🏻‍♂️

@anthonypeltier4039

4 жыл бұрын

I actually have had the hope that goblins were corrupted dwarves, orc were corrupted elves, uruks were corrupted humans, and half orcs were offspring of humans and orcs mating. Now the biology of it would be sketchy but morgoth cant override eru's biological laws but he can twist them so i would bet he warped elf after elf after elf generation using inbreeding and artificial selection, with a stark diet change, to create orcs in the beginning.

@anthonypeltier4039

4 жыл бұрын

Also if elves can grieve themselves to death it would stand to reason that pain and misery and suffering and illusions of fear and whatnot would change their physiology over even just a few generations

@stick-itproductions.3307

4 жыл бұрын

From what ive read, Orcs and Goblins are the same beings, but called Orcs and Goblins depending on whether or not it is a; Man, Dwarf, Elf or Hobbit talking about them. Neither Orcs nor Goblins (being the same species) can stand sunlight. The Uruk-Hai, however, are orcs bred by Saruman and genetically engineered to be stronger and to be able to withstand sunlight.

@williamt.sherman9841

4 жыл бұрын

I think that Morgoth forcefully bred captive elves with Evil Maiar. specifically Boldogs. Then later years other "strains" were developed by cross breading other races specifically men. Tolkein intently leaves what really happened unclear (since Men and Elves and even the Valar don't REALLY know what happened and can only guess)

@williamt.sherman9841

4 жыл бұрын

@@stick-itproductions.3307 Uruk-Hai just means "orc-folk"

I always thought there were 3 types of Orcs: 1. The Goblins, who are the smallest Orcs and who lived in the Misty Mountains and Moria, and who according to the Hobbit fought in the Battle of the Five Armies 2. Sauron's Orcs, who were larger but were less effective in the sun and not as strong as the Uruk-hai 3. The Uruk-hai, who were created by Saruman through the breeding of the Goblins and Sauron's Orcs, and who were stronger and could withstand sunlight. Although now I know that Sauron also created Uruk-hai but Saruman improved them.

@MasterBombadillo

4 жыл бұрын

The thing is, Tolkien never meant to differentiate between Orcs and goblins. He was a linguist and wanted to create languages - so for each word he created he would have an English translation ready. This is exactly what the relation is between Orc and goblin, the latter is nothing more than the translation of a word that doesn't exist in English. In this light, saying you're breeding Orcs with goblins is nothing special. It's like saying you're breeding cows with cows. I also fail to see how crossing normal Orcs with smaller, weaker Orcs would result in a breed that is stronger and bigger than both others. I think Sauron used selective breeding over many centuries, using only the largest and strongest of his Orcs every time, to create Uruks - which Saruman would later use too. I doubt Saruman improved the Uruk-hai. I see nothing that implies this. What Saruman did do was creating Half-orcs, but these are not Uruks. Actually, Ugluk heavily implied that their "resistance" to sunlight was due to training, not bred into them. Which would explain why the Orcs from the Misty Mountains as well as those from Mordor would keep up very well when it mattered.

Another great episode! Thanks!

Orcs and Goblins are a separate species...The Reason...In the Book and Movie "The Two Towers" they made note that Saruman was cross-breeding orcs and Goblins, which i take to mean that Goblins were also fine during the day and they breed that into the Urukkhai.

@MasterBombadillo

3 жыл бұрын

At no point in the book did Tolkien state that Saruman was crossbreeding Orcs and goblins. That's a fabrication of the movies, so not canon. In Tolkien's books, Orcs aren't that affected by daylight, they just hate it, and Orcs are being called goblins all the time.

I’m glad you fixed the Illuvitar pronunciation! Another one I noticed that Martin Shaw also mispronounces is Ai-nu-lin-DAL-e. It’s actually Ai-nu-LIN-dale. Great video, as usual!

@keyboarddancers7751

4 жыл бұрын

On pronunciation: Cuiviénen (1:46)

I watched this hoping it would clear up the Goblin/Orc confusion. I was never certain if Goblins were something different or another name for Orc. Thank you for clearing this up with enough certainty even though the text is not 100% clear on this.

Who else favorite orc the one who suggested to eat Pippin and Merry in The Two Towers, just because of his voice? I forgot his name was Grishnak. "What about them, they're fressshhh..."

@foulmoodcentral2830

4 жыл бұрын

his name was Snaga. Grishnak was the uglier one who was stupid enough to follow the hobbits into fangorn forest.

@forgalzz7

4 жыл бұрын

@@foulmoodcentral2830 Grishnakh is actually the relatively smart leader of the Mordor orcs who tried to obey his orders and get the hobbits to Sauron (or rather, to a nazgul pickup waiting on the other side of the Anduin river). They were outnumbered by the Saruman orcs, so he had to bide his time and wait for a chance to steal them away. Unfortunately for him, and through no real fault of his, it was only a pretty small chance. But the fact that he had nazgul interactions, knew of Gollum, and was in charge of this important mission means he must have been one of the more capable and trusted orcs in Mordor's service.

I would like to see a vid on wingless dragons

One way I've come to discern the terms Goblin and Orc is often the type of Orc/Goblin. I have possibly one of the largest collections of games workshop/forgeworld figures. I break it down as Moria Goblins, Goblin town Goblins, Mordor Orcs, Morannon Orcs, Gundabad Orcs and then obviously Uruk-Hai. I find this helpful and I've come to refer to goblins as the smaller breeds that often crawl and live in the depths of the mountains. Orcs are the larger breeds in the main orc populated civilisations. I know the terms are interchangeable but that's how I differentiate

I can't believe this. It was just a few days ago when I was thinking to myself that I really wish you'd upload this video.

I always thought that Goblins were different than orcs, since in my mind every Orc served Sauron but Goblins acted on their own accord - like those Orcs in Moria who didn't take a part in War of The Ring...But I can be wrong

Mae govannen mellon My biggest questions regarding orcs: 1) How long they live 2) What happens with them after they die (this is the big one) 3) Can they become good? I had a theory a long time ago but I lost it, and I think I need to review the first topic to be more certain of it Amazing video as always

I personally always thought that Goblins were corrupted halflings, which is why they were often depicted as smaller than orcs. Ive always thought that sauron was always such a fanboy of Morgoth's works on the orcs that he too wanted to achieve something similar.

I wonder how many orcs are made everyday when they were in full production haha

Your videos and end thoughts are always awesome.

I find it interesting that the much more tougher and stronger Uruk-Hai ended up becoming the basis for Orcs in modern fantasy while their more small and weaker cousins, the actual Orcs, ended up becoming the basis for Goblins in more modern fantasy stories.

A couple of Uruks in the non-cannon portion is everyone's favorite Beserker Uruk from Tear of Grace "Krûk the Bloodaxe", "Zog the Eternal", which was a necromancer that is not a fan of Sauron or the Witch King or a "interesting" admirer of mine "Rûg the Obsessed" that caught me with another orc......that I was going to throw off a cliff. That last one I have on my own channel so it can make people laugh.

Goblins are another name for orcs. A reason why people may think that goblins are a type of orc or a different race could be because it was used in the Hobbit in Goblin Town, where the orcs look a little different from the other types, but they are regular orcs, and equally goblin as all the others.

@johndododoe1411

Жыл бұрын

I don't recall descriptions of orcs in the Hobbit (book). But in the Scandinavian (Danish) translation I grew up with, the term used were mountain-troll for goblin, and troll for the 3 wayside trolls defeated by sunlight early in the adventure. Thus I always thought of the goblins as a cave dwelling type of common sunlight-killable troll much different than Sauron and Saruman's orcs, though possibly related, as orcs too are ugly and cannot live in daylight, in particular, the orc armies at Pelenor fields and the Black Gate fought in artificial night created by stoking the fire in Mt Doom. Only the Urukhai made by Saruman and half-orcs like Bill from Bri and the boss's men in the occupied shire could walk in sunlight . The one cave troll in the Moria fight is an unclassified mystery, but I always read it as a huge scaled troll, not a naked smooth skinned humanoid like in the Jackson movies.

My idea is this. Orcs live (at least mostly) above ground and are more hardy and big compared to goblins. While Goblins are simply orcs who mostly live underground and have adapted slightly. In the movies at least we see goblins climbing walls and even cave roofs. So i think goblins and orcs are the same species. But sub groups. Like Homo sapian (us) and Homo Neaderthalus (neaderthals).

i very much appreciate this dose of lore, thank you! orcs always fascinated me.

“ Shields shall be shattered, Spears shall be splintered, A Sword Day, A RED DAY, Eere the SUN RISES!!!”

Great video. I'm a massive orc fan if that's possible, but my fandom came from Warhammer which certainly separates orcs and goblins as different creatures. I'm less familiar with the depths of Tolkien lore but I'm confident you opinion is correct. Orc as a creature has been used in so many stories I've been very curious where it originated. You mentioned it means monster or demon in old English? I had no idea, amazing! I had always thought Tolkien started it all and then D&D, Warhammer, Blizzard, etc tweaked it from there. Sounds like there was folklore which Tolkien may have adapted it from.

I liked Gothmog. His dodge from the stone catapulted from Minas Tirith was legendary.

@DarkWizardGG

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that feat were so amazing. 😁👍

I don't know why but I always thought Goblins were underground dwelling orcs... more akin to dwarves than elves.

It should also mentioned that Orcs did have some taste of art, since at occasion they put ornaments or pictures on their weapons (although it looked crude or ugly inthe eyes of others). They also must despite the internal conflicts also some kind fo feeling of comradeship among the. The orcs of Moria dared to walk into Lorien and even after loosing many men there followed the fellowship for hundreds of miles to take revenge for their killed comrads and chief - and as Aragorn said it was not uncommon for orcs to take revenge for their slain comrades. Eating orc-flesh was also a curse brought foreward by Grishnakh against the Uruk-hai, so there were things even Orcs despise. That Bold followed Azog as leader seem also to suggest that they had some kind of families (maybe). There was some kind of diplomacy between their tribes and even across the bounds of races, since orcs made (even without externale influence) deals with dwarves, trolls and even with smart animals like the wargs. By the way, aren't there also tales in which the Orcs were bread from men, mainly from the "wild people"? It is also complicated with the question of their free will or not. They were surely weak towards the influence of a dark lord, but that did not mean they were mindless puppets even when they served him. Shagrat and Gorbag talked about a life without supervision and seem to prefer it, but they also did accept that the enemy hated them as much as he hated their master, so they had to fight for victory or would be doomed.

I always loved how the Orcs are corrupted via essentially forgetting their history. Exactly the same as the men -even the Numenorians - did later.

@foulmoodcentral2830

4 жыл бұрын

Corrupted by forgetting their history, heritage, and what is right and wrong. something tells me that it's closer to home then we'd like to admit.

"Here they come!" "Easterlings, orcs, get them all!"

I really wish I could afford to donate a million dollars to your channel, this is just the best and Tolkien would be so proud to see what you’ve done with this channel🙏❤️👍🤗

part of me thinks that orc and goblin are the same. part of me actually thinks that goblins were the creatures that lived in dark places and proper orcs were the ones living directly in the domain of a dark lord. they are technically the same, but the ones the Dwarves fought in the mountains were goblins, the ones they fought at the battle of 5 armies under orders from Sauron were real orcs. no basis for it at all, probably falls apart at a new reading of the books, it's just an explanation I like :)

Remember the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag. The way they talk, they seem to remember times long before the return of Sauron.

"the Orcs took my backpack!" - Bruce Greene

I think Goblins could just be a different subspecies of orc like the Urukai. It makes sense to me, probably partially due to the orc of Mordor, Urukai of Isenguard and Goblins each being their own faction in bfme2

incredible awesome video bro!

What elven traits did they preserve? Were they light footed in the same way? Far sighted?

Does that mean that Orcish souls went to the Halls of Mandos? That must have been fun.

@Killbot754

4 жыл бұрын

Interesting theory.

@Iluvatara

4 жыл бұрын

No bro they were corrupted no longer an elf

another great video - Thank you.

Nice work dude thanks

To know thy enemy is to know thy self.

Thank you for the explanation from Tolkien Gateway about Orcs vs. Goblins. For many years I believe that Orcs and goblins were totally separate for lack of a better term species. But I'm starting to change my viewpoint and believe that goblins and Orcs are part of the same framework of initial corruption and they are just different subtypes or Ark types of the initial Grand Design of the first elves being converted to Orcs. We were never fully hold of the Corruptions and the machinations that morgoth used in this process or how many different variants that he could have made.

I always see the orcs in the very first wars as looking like the mutilated elves that they were. Only after generations did they take on a more standardized look and become an actual new race. The first orcs must've been horrible to see.

Isn’t that so telling though. That the Orcs themselves hate their cruel masters.

I wouldn't mind at all a video of yours to go on for hours without end.

For the Goblin/Orc debate, it's said by Tolkien that they are indeed one and the same. But what I think he meant is that as a whole species it doesn't matter if you refer to them as a Orc or Goblin. But I would say that there are three general types of Orcs as well as subspecies. For instance, Goblins would most likely by a type of Orcs that mostly lives in the Mountains and Hills; most smaller in stature other than the Hob Goblins. Orcs, would most likely are the ones who lives in service to Sauron, Melkor and Saruman as the main grunt units, workers (etc) most would be a little less taller than Man. Uruk-Hai, the main force units in service to Sauron and Saruman who were breed to be the strongest of the Orcs species.

"Down down to goblin town down down to goblin town". First off just gotta say I love your u tube channel (men of the west) its been very good for me in hearing your commentaries and narrations in all the Middle earth lore, so thanks so much as I really enjoy the various topics and also the positive conclusions and how you make reference to modern moral choices in the conclusions. I just happened to be checking something out one day and I accidentally became aware of Melcore and it was then I realized the lord of the rings and the hobbit asnd all of are just a drop in the bucket in comparison to all the Arda history. In regards to Goblins and Orcs I feel that the Goblins are more so the creatures Bilbo encountered the skinny bow legged weird dudes and the orcs are more like the baraikai.....Saruman the traitor created thanks again so much for your hard work I just love the sight. bless you Darren

War turns boys into Men, and Men into Heros. It's a game of courage, a game to prove yourself to your fellow people. An age where nothing is worth fighting for, is an age where nothing is worth living for.....

Having the Orcs speak like East-end of London criminal classes from the Twenties and Thirties gave them character.