For 1400 years no one was allowed to question Islam, thanks to the internet.

@SzTz100

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you, but I'm worried there are those who want Muslims to convert to Christianity. Let's be clear, all these religions are questionable and their link to reality is highly questionable. It's illogical to destroy one myth in order to believe in another.

@cocoalfaridah5831

11 ай бұрын

@@SzTz100not truth we don’t need numbers.., you convert if you want or not not because of politics

@user-ww2lc1yo9c

10 ай бұрын

You have been living in cave for this entire time that is why you do not know what has been going on for 1400 years. Learn Arabic, Persian, Turkish and Urdu. Then you will be able to access the things written to question Islam and its origins by Muslims themself.

@MCMLXXXVICCXII

5 ай бұрын

There are some minor sects in Turkish history implying the phenomenon here and there for centuries. Christianism was also a sect of Judaism in the beginning and invented to be a religion at the end. Its just getting heard by more, thanks to internet :)

Mel returns with s banger. I knew you were onto something

Very interesting. The original Muslims were actually Christians. At some point they wanted their own identity in the region & basically invented a new religion that evolved from Christianity. It evolved from there into what it is today. Islam is a combination of Judaism, Christianity & Zoroastrian.

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

Some Buddhism thrown in too

@insanoibro6331

Жыл бұрын

​@@RedWolf75no way

@Taqiyya-Redflag

Жыл бұрын

Even From the Egyptian, Greek and Roman Pantheon. Check Lloyd de Jongh, he breaks it down from the Muhammadan's own sources. Islam is from all over the place.

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

@@insanoibro6331 Yes Mel and Murad covered this. The Hadiths were written in areas where Buddhism was strong

@sheikhboyardee556

Жыл бұрын

Yes, & also a little Paganism also. @@RedWolf75

There’s indeed a tremendous wealth of great scholars in Europe who’s academic works have yet to be translated into English.

I love the German writers on Islam.... and this is my favorite book from them.

Ohlig's critique is entirely justified. The sheer complacency and naivete of so much of mainstream Islamic scholarship, from the old "Orientalists" til today, beggars belief. In fact, it's been lamented by no small number of more recent scholars in the field. Contrast it with the level of skepticism the Bible and Christianity are subjected to in Biblical studies scholarship and it's like night and day.

Welcome back, Mel. We're all looking forward to your next installments.

I still dont get how a robust empire can have no records at all when neighboring societies have no problems providing contemporary evidences. something is very sus

@karenthompson1337

11 ай бұрын

Yes but but but “absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence..” or some BS. 🤣

Great quote Mel. True. Persons like to be part of the group. That’s why the COVID nonsense carried on!!

What a find Mel, and thank you for this introduction to Ohlig's book a gem of a video. From what I have read and watched on yours and others video's I would be very surprised if there was a Mohammad of Islam. What do you think of Dr. Jay Smith's potential find that the sira was actually put together by Heinrich Ferndinand Wustenfield in the years 1858-1860?

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

That the sira was put together by him and yet everyone was convinced it was from the 9th century shows how easily false historical claims as to the antiqwity of the sources can be made. It is a brilliant find and I must look into that more.

@simonhengle8316

Жыл бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins I'm looking forward to the results of your research on sira

The standard narrative truly has holes in

And don’t forget the fact that there is little to no contemporary records or writings by outside sources. John of Damascus grew up under Arab rule & doesn’t spout the SIN, never mentions the prophet Mohammad in Mecca or Medina, nor the geography problems of the Hejaz, especially that it was significantly not a significant centre of trade as the SIN bleats. I have 2 Excellent books written by a retired navy officer who researched and wrote wonderful books on trade in the Mediterranean, up the Red Sea and further. He is not interested in writing from any religious perspective and funnily enough Mecca is entirely absent from his researched findings. As well what he finds persons being called, well they aren’t Muslims. Read Gavin Menzies 1421 & his Lost Empire of Atlantis where explores trade route both lands and sea and looks for trade items from old. Excellent books neither mentions Mecca.

There’s a pretty good article on the Dome of the Rock in the September National Geographic. They mentioned something I didn’t know, that the recent findings of earlier mosaics underneath Al Malik’s point to Muawiya as the first builder. Seeing how he may have been some sort of Christian, might this lend some support to my theory on the original Christian significance of the rock? They also wrote about the original shrine as having a more ecumenical draw for Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Zoroastrians. There’s some beautiful photos and nice diagrams too.

Ohlig’s summary is so clear and concise. I wonder what he’d think of my theory that not just the name MHD in the dome was really referring to Jesus, but that the location and meaning of the edifice was built in reference to Jesus as well, and also that the historic devotion to the rock itself had its origin in Jesus’ passion?

Can you please recommend an extensive reading list on this topic?

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

I will as I find them.

@michele-33

Жыл бұрын

@user-vn3pm1lu1m, I'm not promoting another channel but Lloyd De Jongh has free access to his archive on the subject. God bless 🕯️

@karenthompson1337

Жыл бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins❤

Yep we knew it already from the start

Here is how to know muhammad didn't actually exist. muhammad died in 632. Sunnah states his followers heard him say that Isa would descend at THE White Mosque in Damascus. The White Mosque in Damascus was built by the Umayyads. The Umayyads built it after 634. How did muhammad say this two or more years after he supposedly died?

@wormius7350

Жыл бұрын

The dawahghandists will just throw their own sources under the bus like they always do

@moorek1967

11 ай бұрын

@servant_serv-ant And once again, a muslim shows a very verse that destroys islam. O LORD God of truth = Yᵊhōvâ ēl ĕmeṯ YHWH is Yehova, Yehova is YHWH. And you didn't even get that, did you? You took all that time to go look it up in the Hebrew just to verify allah is NOT YHWH and that YHWH is the God of Truth, not allah. THANK YOU for conceding that. Now, this is an absolute fabrication. Quran [61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic." Absolute fabrication, which makes it absolute false, and if you want to play this "You don hab de reel gospill liek Jesus did" then you commented to the wrong one. I am prepared to show you every single verse from the Gospels that muhammad stole then twisted to lie to you, so that you would worship muhammad, because you have proven in this that you already do not believe allah is the god of truth because you told us YHWH is. How much time do you have?

@fiditenemini2452

4 ай бұрын

​@servant_serv-ant is this some "m.a.d.hammed in the bible" bs 😂

@moorek1967

4 ай бұрын

​@servant_serv-ant So, mental gymnastic stretching again. Let me help you. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] *my soul delighteth;* I have put *my spirit* upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles הֵן עַבְדִּי אֶתְמָךְ-בּוֹ, בְּחִירִי רָצְתָה נַפְשִׁי; נָתַתִּי רוּחִי עָלָיו, מִשְׁפָּט לַגּוֹיִם יוֹצִיא. 42:1 hën av'Diy et'mäkh'-Bô B'chiyriy rätz'täh naf'shiy nätaTiy rûchiy äläyw mish'Päţ laGôyim yôtziy #1 allah has no spirit or soul. You are in apostacy. Make sure the next time not to copy/paste one verse and think you debunked anything. Psalm 37:31 The law of his ´Élöhîm [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. 37:32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. 37:33 Yähwè will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged. 37:34 Wait on Yähwè and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see [it]. 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he [was] not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found 37:37 Mark the perfect [man], and behold the upright: for the end of [that] man [is] peace 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous [is] of Yähwè [he is] their strength in the time of trouble. 37:40 And Yähwè shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him. 37:31 Tôrat élohäyw B'liBô lo tim'ad áshuräyw 37:32 tzôfeh räshä laTZaDiyq ûm'vaQësh lahámiytô 37:33 y'hwäh lo-yaaz'veNû v'yädô w'lo yar'shiyeNû B'hiSHäf'ţô 37:34 qaûëh el-y'hwäh ûsh'mor Dar'Kô wiyrômim'khä läreshet äretz B'hiKärët r'shäiym Tir'eh 37:35 räiytiy räshä äriytz ûmit'äreh K'ez'räch raánän 37:36 waYaávor w'hiNëh ëyneNû wäávaq'shëhû w'lo nim'tzä 37:37 *sh'mär-Täm ûr'ëh yäshär Kiy-acháriyt l'iysh shälôm* 37:38 ûfosh'iym nish'm'dû yach'Däw acháriyt r'shäiym nikh'rätäh 37:39 ût'shûat tzaDiyqiym mëy'hwäh mäûZäm B'ët tzäräh 37:40 waYa'z'rëm y'hwäh way'faL'ţëm y'faL'ţëm mër'shäiym w'yôshiyëm Kiy-chäšû vô I want you to show me the words Katam and Khatam. This individual must have the Law of YHWH in his heart. Did Mohammad follow the law of YHWH? No, he did not. And in fact, the quran informs you that allah and YHWH are NOT the same. So the one you want to claim is true is the wicked one who spreads himself like a green bay tree. Who does salvation come by? Islam or YHWH? Be careful how you answer, as there is no salvation promised in islam. Rasha is cognate with Rasheed and one of the 99 names of allah is rasheed, guide, teacher. Rasha is wicked, ungodly and rasheed is to guide. So allah the wicked guides into wickedness. And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. S. 14:4 Hilali-Khan “… Thus Allah leads astray WHOM HE WILLS and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.” S. 74:31 Hilali-Khan A day when ye will turn to flee, having no preserver from Allah: and he whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. And verily Joseph brought you of old clear proofs, yet ye ceased not to be in doubt concerning what he brought you till, when he died, ye said: Allah will not send any messenger after him. Thus Allah deceiveth him who is a prodigal, a doubter. S. 40:33-34 Pickthall You have been deceived and are a deceiver.

@gareginasatryan6761

28 күн бұрын

Umayyads started from 661. That’s 30 years after Mohamed’s death. Also the mosque started in the 700s. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Mosque

I think that the early writers of the quran. based their stories on Ali Baba and the forty thieves. Lol.

As things stand today, any story on the origins will do as long as it does not agree with the "standard" one. After all, in order to bring down the edifice of Islam, one needs to strike hard at its foundations. This is the gist of what the orientalists have been doing for a while. Put question mark on Qur'an, put lot of question marks on hadith, come up with all sort of stories to explain how it came into being with the only common theme being that they are not common and they throw the "standard" narrative under the bus.

While I agree with basically everything said about the state of scholarship and the sources, I do find the Christian thesis very difficult. If the early sources are to be relatively trusted, then the Christians do not recognize fellow Christians of even a heretical kind that I know of. There's also no hint of any kind of sacramental system that would point toward a Christian origin as such. The numismatics and inscriptions could political expediency, as in the east they maintained Zoroastrian symbolism. I find Shoemaker's allusion to a Jewish-adjacent eschatological movement, modified especially by Abd al-Malik very interesting. Keep up the great work!

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

Have you read the Didache? It does refer to baptism, IE a sacramental system.. what are your thoughts on that?

@starshipchris4518

Жыл бұрын

@@IslamicOrigins It's been a number of years, but I have read the Didache. Along with the Letters of Clement and Ignatius, and of course the New Testament, they're a excellent detailing of early Christian belief and practice. I recall the Didache also referring to confession of sins so that the sacrifice -- the Eucharist -- would be pure. And this is what, to me, seems lacking in early external sources on the Arabs. Christians don't seem to recognize a sacramental system among the Arabs, let alone a recognition of the Eucharist. Without these, in this era, you are not within a known Christian umbrella. Also, their Temple Mount construction does not seem to be recognized as a church. This lack of recognition of Christian fundamentals among the Arab invaders is my hesitation with a Christian origin of Islam. Even John of Damascus, while possibly referring to it as a Christian heresy, does not mention any of these fundamentals among the Ishmaelites. Whereas Ignatius of Antioch, for example, railed against the Docetists as Christian heretics over the Eucharist. That said, I'm open to all ideas, because whatever the Arabs believed wasn't Islam.

@IslamicOrigins

Жыл бұрын

I see what you mean now. Excellent points.@@starshipchris4518

@RedWolf75

Жыл бұрын

​@@IslamicOrigins Mel when you did that video on the Abrahamists that really is what I think the orgins of Islam. I believe it was a Judiac-Christian group that rejected orthox Christianity. Then when the Persians overran the Roman provinces, the Arab Christians may have lost faith and turned to this group for leadership against the Persians.

@borneandayak6725

11 ай бұрын

​@@starshipchris4518 could it be a Jewish movement, but heavily influenced by Christianity? Because Quran are heavily influenced by Christian ideas (both orthodox and heretical branch of Christianity).

💯

Mel's back and izlame is in line with a tsunami of grand proportion 👏

What’s your opinion of the inscription of a girl’s tomb from 691 where it says Prophet Mohammed has passed away and that “people of Islam” are sad.

Thank you for informing me about the Alawites. Their theology is very interesting and resembles a merge between Christianity and Islam. Not to mention that they are also called Nusayrites (which sounds like Nazarenes). Just from the overview on Wikipedia, Alawism feels like Christianity rebadged with an Arab identity. 1) Ali is God rencarnated 2) They have trinitarian theology though the God body is different. 3) rituals that involve wine including a psuedo holy communion. 4) Celebrate Christian feasts and saints. I find find this astonishing. In light of the discoveries that the Quran is made up of Christian seminaries, including gnostic texts and pagan legends. Maybe Alawism is a snapshot in time as to what Pro-Islam looked like or at least one version that survived the Abbasids. This provides the mood for some for theological ideas and sects floating in the 7th and 8th Century. The efforts by the Abassids to create the Hadith and other traditions then becomes more of a reformation to suite the needs of the empire.

Karl-Heinz Ohlig's Early Islam is a good book

This is early Islam in a nutshell "Oh you believe in him too, so do we. Although we just worship the High God and not the minor gods just in case if God doesnt approve and its better just to pray to the Highest God because he created the other gods."

another reason why Quran barely talks about the followers of Islam. You'd think there would be entire sections on it. The Hadiths interpreted those verses from the Islamic era, but that's up for debate. for example, in the context of the satanic verse, it doesn't say anywhere that it's being addresses to Mohammed or that the names are gods. Most of the material of the Quran is from Jewish apocrypha and Syriac Christianity

Do you think the Arabs in 630 were United under Umar, or do you think they were fragmented states, not United until the Umayyads?

Al-Wāqidī was born 747 in Medina, (Saudi) Arabia and died 823 in Baghdad Iraq. Al-Wāqidī is said to have written about 21 books, largely historical, including histories of the cities of Mecca and Medina. Only the Kitāb al-maghāzī, a monumental chronology aka A History Of Militairy Campaigns, survives. IS THE REASON PERHAPS THAT ONLY THE ABOVE MENTIONED BOOK SURVIVED, THAT MECCA UP UNTILL THE DEATH OF AL-WAQIDI DID NOT EXIST?!

"There's no there there."

Watch debate Dr robert morey vs shabir ally yyz

I heard that it is a really good book...

People will do anything for money how much did they pay you is it worth it you believe so

@borneandayak6725

11 ай бұрын

Repent and convert to Christianity ❤

@AncientHebrewNeverDied

11 ай бұрын

@@servant_serv-ant 🙄🙄🙄

Muhammad cross ? You mean Our Lord and Savior Cross

@IslamicOrigins

11 ай бұрын

Muhammad was used as a title for Jesus before Muslims took it over. Jews used it for God in Yemin before that.

@loverofindiaindian626

5 ай бұрын

​@@IslamicOriginsyes Muhammad is second coming of Jesus Christ The real Messiah of Jews And awaited second eesa of Muslim Second coming of Christ of Christians According to Quran Jesus already returned that is Muhammad peace be upon him Messenger of God Servant of God Glory be to God who doesn't taken son there is no partner in kingdom

@loverofindiaindian626

5 ай бұрын

​@@IslamicOriginsyes Muhammad is second coming of Jesus Christ The real Messiah of Jews And awaited second eesa of Muslim Second coming of Christ of Christians According to Quran Jesus already returned that is Muhammad peace be upon him Messenger of God Servant of God Glory be to God who doesn't taken son there is no partner in kingdom

So Islam and Christianity both took liberties with their source material. 🧐

I read that the terrorists called their despicable attack the ‘deluge of Al Asqa’ because they claim some Jews allegedly went to the Al Asqua mosque to commemorate the Temple there. I always notice that the contention over the Temple Mount is always over Al Asqua as the site of the Temple. Apparently both sides now think the Temple was not under the dome of the rock but somewhere in the plaza in front of Al Asqua . My reading of some archeology there and ancient pilgrimage accounts to Jerusalem has lead me to believe that the rock under the dome wasn’t the foundation stone, but Gabbatha, the judgment seat of Pilate in the Praetorium in the fortress Antonia which overlooked the courts of the Temple. This hypothetical configuration of the Temple makes sense with the historical records like Josephus. Gabbatha then, in that location, also provides the context for the caliph Al Malik’s anti Christian inscriptions surrounding the rock inside the dome. The September cover story of the National Geographic reported that recent mosaic findings under the visible mosaics indicate that the first Umayyad caliph Muʿāwiya had initiated the construction of the dome of the rock which was later Islamisized by ʿAbd al-Malik. Muʿāwiya built other monuments on the Temple Mount during his reign and evidence points to him having been a Christian of some sort. The inscriptions inside the dome surrounding the rock made by caliph Al-Walid according to what is written in them but his father ʿAbd al-Malik may have actually initiated the inscriptions during his reign only to have been finished by his son Al-Walid. The ornate mosaics above the inscriptions are very similar to the ones in the Great Mosque of Damascus which lends support to the theory that Al-Walid had a part in their creation since he built the Damascus mosque over the ancient cathedral shrine housing the head of St. John the Baptist. That’s my theory at least.