Mad respect you both of you

@stellaboulton9531

5 ай бұрын

And the sound quality deserves similar respect. 3 pieces of brilliance.

(starts at 8:38 ; sound quality gets a little better around 15:18 )

@TCt83067695

11 ай бұрын

Bless you

Norman should run as VP with #Cornell2024

Can the audio be cleaned up at all? I can’t help but listen to Norm and Brianna but it’s a bit grating.

@InfrequentObserver

11 ай бұрын

It improves after 15 minutes

Brianna gives me some semblance of Faith in politic

Thanks for the video. It's a wonderful mix of competency and incompetency (audio) at the same time.

Why should any immagents that came to America pay reperations?

26:55 This is fascinating. At first I didn’t fully understand what you were asking, but I think I realized this is an extremely insightful moment, and it explains a lot of the trouble people like Norman and Susan Nieman have communicating with the woke. I mean when you asked something along the lines of ‘isn’t the problem just cynical democratic politicians and so on coopting woke language and issues’. It made me think perhaps we aren’t still fully communicating what we mean. Wokeness and woke politics doesn’t begin and end in public figures. It’s the entire political life of the society and culture. Think of it like this perhaps; ask a woke person what they believe and what they want politically. It has no political content in the traditional sense, it’s just slogans about equality and so on. The goals usually vague. It’s not that it’s been added to left wing politics, it’s that it’s replaced left wing politics. A salient example would be feminism. There are many right women politicians or Wall Street types who would call themselves feminists. And it’s difficult to argue against why that is such a strange idea in woke terms. When the individual and the specific group is fetishised so much, it renders any context as nebulous or irrelevant. I’m realizing here that woke people really do see their position as simple and in isolation, and any opposition to it must in effect be actually pro racism, sexism etc.

@willshogren1987

7 ай бұрын

It's because woke people are primarily right wingers for whom politics are symbolic and individualistic rather than collective and materialist. It's a market-compliant ideology masquerading as radical because they're usually the most annoying people in the room at any given moment.

Ty❤

Thank you.

an excellent interview, audio issues aside

In response to Bro. Jeff Canady's question about contemporary Black leaders: Not to put words into Professor Finkelstein's mouth, but a couple of folks who came to my mind are Ajamu Baraka of the Green Party and former Ohio State Senator Nina Turner. Both have impeccable Left credentials that largely align with Prof. Finkelstein's.

@phasespace4700

8 ай бұрын

Finkelstein's left credentials have been completely shot for a long time.

Bernie, both in 2016 and 2020, once it was clear that the Democratic establishment wasn’t going to allow him to be the nominee, knew that he could do nothing as a senator representing New Hampshire unless he cooperated with the system.

9:26 audio issues start with worker strikes conversation lol... shocker! Lol!

Eric levitz wrote an excellent review of the Susan Neiman book focusing on Carl Schmitt that norm referenced. May 2023 Do the ‘Woke’ Betray the Left’s True Principles?

Damn good question from Jeff Canady, shoutout to Jeff 1:29:30 I accept Norm's answer but an easy answer from me would be someone who's not perfect but he's pretty damn important right now and its Chris Smalls.

@CMPLTE

9 ай бұрын

bingo

His stance on reparations is basically the same as Adolph Reed

@willshogren1987

7 ай бұрын

Who fucking rocks and is smart.

@1:07:00-1:08:30 if anyone who lived through the civil rights era knew that Norm THEN SO DID BERNIE. The man literally took part in the civil rights movement when he attended college at Chicago from 1961-1964. Also, Bri, (@1:11:45) I doubt very much that if Bernie would have came out in support of reparations that it would have made any difference in South Carolina. That's not to say that he should have or shouldn't have but purely from a political strategy standpoint I think that Biden had the black vote (particularly the boomer black vote) on lock simply because he was Obama's VP and there wasn't anything that anyone could do to change that as evidenced by the fact that Biden didn't support a single issue (including reparations of course) that benefitted the black community and not only that but also supported legislation and passed legislation that HURT the black community. He even gave a eulogy at a white supremacists funeral! Yet he won the "black" vote by WIDE margins over Bernie. The problem in America today isn't so much a racial divide as it is a generational one. The boomers are the ones who hold dominant sway over politics in the US and they are far more reactionary than their offspring. And as Norm pointed out, Bernie won EVERY SINGLE DEMOGRAPHIC under the age of 30 (and won a majority overall age 30-40).

love caribou

the audio is terrible even after 15:00

@liuj88

11 ай бұрын

It sounds acceptable to me, and it gets progressively better.

Norm is awesome. He has some terrible takes but you can’t not like the guy. When he talks about commitment and sacrifice and the elite weaponization of cancel culture I felt that

@vinylgrailny8076

11 ай бұрын

What are these horrible takes you speak of? Genuinely curious

@nopasaran191

11 ай бұрын

@@vinylgrailny8076 Some of his takes on LGBT stuff. I don’t think he’s transphobic and definitely believe he supports LGBT people but he has some very conservative takes when it comes to trans stuff. It’s not even worth talking about though because this is the type of stuff that he’s talking about being weaponized against him and I’m literally talking about it right now and I’m on his side. He doesn’t deserve to be outcast because of it. We can’t just be throwing people away like they’re nothing and have nothing to offer because of some shit like that when we barley have anyone to struggle with us as it is.

@vinylgrailny8076

11 ай бұрын

@@nopasaran191 yeah I don’t think he’s anti lgbtq actually I think he’s gay himself if you follow his life closely. Never any romantic partners..he’s just logical and doesn’t want people conflating identity ideology with morality

@nopasaran191

11 ай бұрын

@@vinylgrailny8076 Yeah I definitely don’t think he’s anti LGBT but he’s super anti idpol obviously. Either way he does a good job or highlighting why class struggle needs to be prioritized if any progressive change wants to happen.

@vinylgrailny8076

11 ай бұрын

@@nopasaran191 if you agree with him ur anti identity pol too 😊

“She ended up in a psychiatric ward or committing suicide”

Audio is inexcusably bad

I find this ongoing identity politics debate to be one of Briahnas weak points because she conflates so many different things, rhetorical appeals to identity, race specific policies which are never actually named and even reparations wouldn’t be just one race as there were black slaveowners and non black slaves, black patronage/elite networking politics (clyburn and his Rolodex), and the idea/emotional appeal of racial kinship itself. She also seemingly ignores one of the central arguments made by the other side which is that the reality of racial kinship sentiment *is a class politics that’s pro capitalist* and it is inherently anti solidaristic among the working class because it puts black elites, black capital as oppressed and in deep kinship with the vast majority of poor and working black people. So while it may help you win an election in some cases it’s being anti solidaristic and breaking the class unity required to overhaul things. The other part that seems obvious to me but I find strangely rarely recognized is the idea that that could change over time for good reason. *Arguably* in past eras like slavery and Jim Crow there was an actual shared material interest across all classes of black people in ending racial codes that applied across class, and that just does not apply today. Despite the sentiment, statistics seem pretty clear that there is not a single issue of racism that can be legislated on that applies to the black elite. There are no police murders of black elites. No multimillionaire black women are suffering from medical racism that can be fixed by race specific legislation. Etc. In my view the truth is there was always a black capitalist class who committed atrocities but they did used to be much smaller. Free blacks who owned slaves or were otherwise exploitative capitalists or pro slavery literally since 1619, one of the first African arrivals was a black indentured servant who got his freedom, then bought servants, then had them turned into slaves as legal punishment when they were caught escaping. Racial kinship in a meaningful material way has always been a lie, and even culturally there has never been one black culture, or a black community somehow between millions of people spread from Louisiana to Alaska to Hawaii to Harlem. And there’s no meaningful shared blackness between rich black slaveowners and black slaves. It’s an illusion that serves capital but yes it’s still one many people including Briahna feel very attached to. BUT as they talk about with bernie winning the under 30 black vote (and Briahna is late 30s) that may be changing. Let’s hope so. Black politics will be stuck and make any progressive power attainment impossible until black politics once again becomes the progressive edge of the coalition which means in this era turning on black capitalists and black capitalism: Obama, jay z, Oprah, Beyoncé, Robert Johnson etc.

@vinylgrailny8076

11 ай бұрын

She trying to keep her job / future career opportunities she can’t help it

@Narrow-Pather

10 ай бұрын

When it came to Chattel Enslavement, there is and was only one ethnic group relegated to that dehumanization on top of being enslaved. While people often toss out the "Blacks had slaves too" mantra, they neglect to relay the information that many of them purchased to either free those enslaved, or in efforts to improve their treatment. And as far as no "kinship", Greenwood and the like evidence that there was ethnically based cohesive cooperation. *Details matter."

@Unclejamsarmy

10 ай бұрын

@@Narrow-Pather I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the first sentence but obviously black people aren’t the only ones who’ve been dehumanized. Yes from the historians I’ve seen about half of black slaveowners owned a family member. But the other half were profit driven just like white slaveowners. And there was from the beginning america a capitalist class of black people who did evil for profit, which is the core of my larger point at the end about the illusion of kinship. I don’t know what you mean in the last sentence either because I think it’s fairly clear I wasn’t arguing that there was no ethnically based cohesive cooperation. Unless you mean literally every single person of an ethnicity agreeing and cooperating which has obviously never happened. You seem not to like my arguments but not really engaging with them or countering.

@lunaridge4510

9 ай бұрын

@@vinylgrailny8076 Exactly! She's a sellout. A future politician

@vinylgrailny8076

9 ай бұрын

@@lunaridge4510 that’s harsh. She does 10000% more insight and sincerity then mainstream political commentary faces. She deserves to protect herself. She has her limits like everyone else

I wish he'd asked the guy in the audience why he doesn't believe in this "Holocaust narrative"

@lunaridge4510

9 ай бұрын

because you don't give a virulent anti-Semite a chance to sound out his horrid lies

See: " Finding Your Whiteness in a Time of Crisis: The Reeducation of Norman Finkelstein" by Jon Jeter, Black Agenda Report, April 5, 2023.

@mgkos

5 ай бұрын

Oh ffs 🤦🏼‍♀️

@aquavelva4125

5 ай бұрын

@@mgkos you found it...

Norm is correct, Bri is wrong, but confronting why Bri is wrong will undermine some of Norm's assumptions, due to the generation he is from.

@MarinaUganda

11 ай бұрын

Interesting comment. Could you expand on why confronting her points will undermine Norm's?

@emilianosintarias7337

11 ай бұрын

@@MarinaUganda TLDR: They both think wokism is a wrong relationship to correct ideas, but they differ as to what that relationship is, and what it should be. Many of her ideas are those left ideas that overlap with american liberalism. These may have been one reason the left failed in the 20th century. But, they are sacred cows. Brianna sees identity politics as a cynical brandishing of these ideas, but still embraces them as equal with class struggle. Norm though sees them as issues to be confronted so class politics can be all inclusive. Bri thinks feminism , anti-racism, trans theory, etc are left wing as such. Norm thinks they should be part of the left wing, but when we used to divide, they're not. The problem is that the ideas are crappy and don't do what they say on the box. Which is what Norm would figure out if he subjected them to the same scrutiny he subjects everything else to, but he can't - due to the apparent explanatory power they have and overlap with real social change they carried in his generation. Feminism ,for example does not comport with facts we now know, and it cannot be integrated successfully with an understanding, despite 150 years of trying, of class. That doesn't at all mean women's liberation was or is a farce, but it would have to start from there, a new approach to gender egalitarianism. That's impossible for the left to consider, our non sequitur is that even question feminism as such = questioning sex equality = reactionary. Despite the fact most living people, including most women who like the idea of sex equality, don't like feminism because it makes extra claims that clash with their life experience and with sociological fact. Feminism is only one example. So Norm can only say Bri is insisting on a divisive relationship with otherwise correct stances, but she wants to know what makes them divisive if they are sincere and no corporate grifts. To really go into that would be to go into 100 year old debates in the marxist left that would cause Norm to burn some of his own bridges.

@promark5317

10 күн бұрын

@@emilianosintarias7337 👍✌️

Opportunity wasn’t equal in 1960 for white women either (and still isn’t)!

Sound engineer anybody?? Give me a break

Audio SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!

Reparations for women, above all. Women has been the most oppressed group consistently. Why not reparations to women who didn't have same rights as men for most human history? Definitely more than 400 years.

@Narrow-Pather

10 ай бұрын

Not being able to vote shouldn't be equated with being stripped of your humanity, and relegated to the life of a beast of burden. Women never endured Chattel Enslavement. Do you comprehend not having some of the same rights as men when compared to not having the rights of every other human!? Even women had rights the Enslaved didn't. You could say no, cry rape, and have your family....

@HkFinn83

9 ай бұрын

What about trans? Their existence was literally canceled until recently

@ZHADOMArchon-hy5gs

8 ай бұрын

Trans women first, then

@kham6006

8 ай бұрын

I’ve never been oppressed-

@MarinaUganda

8 ай бұрын

So what. Many Blacks haven't been oppressed.@@kham6006

How about black military people pay reperations to all the iraqi immagents to America ?

P

Bri’s point around 36 minutes in is key to me; Norm doesn’t seem to realize that his use of the word “woke” in the current context is feeding a right wing narrative that is against all fights for equality. The distinction Bri tries to make between legitimate civil rights struggles and the weaponization of those issues to avoid addressing economic class issues is really important. (Norm annoys me when he goes into a long diatribe assuming that she doesn’t know left history which she obviously knows.)

@mgkos

5 ай бұрын

Re being bored or “annoyed” by a complex analysis-deal with it.

@LBoytz

5 ай бұрын

@@mgkos it’s not his analysis that annoys me, it’s his (wrong and in my view arrogant) assumption that Bri doesn’t know the history he’s talking about. She’s more knowledgeable than he about contemporary Black thinkers and their relationship to previous civil rights movements, as I’ve learned from watching other discussions with him. Bri makes a distinction between legitimate struggles for equal rights and opportunities and the weaponization of identity politics that Norm doesn’t make, or seem to understand; he’s too willing to jump on the “anti-woke” train, which is a right wing framing.

@mgkos

5 ай бұрын

@@LBoytz I find Prof Finkelstein one of the most humble & methodical scholars & intellectuals of our time. This interviewer likes the sound of her own vapid & grating voice. Fast forwarded as many did her sections, glad I did.

@LBoytz

5 ай бұрын

@@mgkos Disagree. Considering other points of view seriously without avoiding critical questions is something Bri does well in my opinion. You (anyone) might learn something from listening to her instead of fast forwarding, but only if you’re interested in other points of view. Finkelstein is very good on things he’s knowledgeable about, but has some pretty big blind spots, I think.

@mgkos

5 ай бұрын

@@LBoytz she’s facile & self absorbed.

Briahna stop playing with him!

The cognitive dissonance on this stage is overwhelming.....both of them.

Bri, Norm doesn't believe in pronouns, so how come you don't call him a grifter like you do others that don't comply? Why are you so inconsistent?

Who or what is a Briana joy gray.