Great response! I enjoyed it a lot, not only are the arguments theological but rational and you explained them really well, I didn't get circular reasoning at first but now I do and I also really liked the seed analogy, it's perfect! It's sad but true that that weak interpretation is also the most preached, of course these people would easily lose their faith, we gotta pray for them I'll definitely share this, though I also believe people didn't really watched "The Truth Hurts" video searching for solid arguments or theological accuracy but to have some kind of a reason to stop believing so they can sin deliberately in peace, though that won't make them free

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad you enjoyed the arguments and understood the idea behind the picture. I agree with you that it is sad that a lot of people’s belief are not based on strong theology. And while faith is ultimately the most important thing, it is sad to see so many people leaving the church for issues which are not major. Do share this video, I hope it helps more people. I cannot assume why people watch The Truth Hurts, but perhaps you are right

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

😂 nonsense. It’s the normal Christians easily lose their faith. JW’s among the most faithful people for a very terrible reason. Most of them simply were kicked out. You simply don’t even understand maybe can’t even comprehend what they had to overcome. They endured mental hardship likely more than your entire life in an instant.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

@@LittleRadicalThinker go get some help mate, a lot better things you can be doing in life then spreading snarky uneducated and poorly thought out comments on videos

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All Your comment is utterly laughably useless.

@NinetyRalph

4 ай бұрын

​@@LittleRadicalThinker Hello, thanks for replying! Though I have to disagree with you, even though they may have had problems I may not be familiar with; God is, he's the answer to all of them, even doubt; they would've known that if the community he was part of emphasized on the sovereignty of God just like biblical Reformed theology does. If some truly were kicked out because of doubt, that shows just how far they were from that belief; he isn't less of a sinner than any of us and doubt is normal, I agree, their response wasn't appropriate But that also teaches how some aren't meant to be chosen, and that doesn't make God any less good, so I understand you may still not agree All I have to say is, if you jumped off a bridge because you don't believe in gravity, I'm sure we can agree you would die, people denying the truth doesn't make them exempt from it But I'll still pray for you

My sister is a paleontologist, and she has some solid reasons for believing the flood. Such as the fact that many dinosaur fossils are found in poses that suggest that they drowned. Another interesting thing is that the very bottom of the fossil record contains sea creatures, mostly ones that would scurry on the seabed, this makes sense as a huge flood would cover the seafloor with mud and silt, burying many of these creatures. Many of these things he pointed out could be explained rather easily, and thus have already been explained. But people will often see what they want to see.

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

Noah lived with dinosaurs and didn’t save them as instructed by God, good one.

@TheStarshipGarage

4 ай бұрын

@@LittleRadicalThinker No, he did. But just two of every kind.

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

@@TheStarshipGarage And where are they? The large ones.

@TheStarshipGarage

4 ай бұрын

@@LittleRadicalThinker They were probably brought on as babies, thus taking up less room and being less hostile.

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

@@TheStarshipGarage they evolved. Okay

I believed there was a worldwide flood thousands of years ago because the bible taught that it occurred. Then i learned more and more about science and geology and global topography. I learned more and more about the bible. Now i absolutely most assuredly believe the flood of Noah story.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

What are some of those reasons?

@smugwendigo5123

4 ай бұрын

My question is that the bible says the flood waters covered the mountains, did the flood waters cover mount Everest if its supposed to be taken literally?

@michaelszczys8316

4 ай бұрын

@@smugwendigo5123 first you have to understand that before the flood the earth was a totally different place. Most of the water was inside of the earth, there was some form of barrier in the upper atmosphere that blocked radiation from the sun and made the atmosphere to be at higher pressure. This barrier also caused the whole earth to be like a giant greenhouse with more even temperature overall. The earth did not have a tilt to its axis so every day was evenly split 12 hours of day- 12 hours of night. The surface was much flatter and any ' mountains ' were not very high, just high ' hills '. During the flood the earth cracked open and high pressure hot water shot out, in some cases shooting out into space and coming back down to earth as sub- zero hail. This is what quick- froze the mammoths. The land along the cracks sunk down as the water gushed out and created the deep ocean trenches. The land on either side of the deep trenches match up like a puzzle, the continents did not float around. During rapid continental upheaval the Himalayan mountains were formed which caused an imbalance in the rotation and moved to axis to where it is now. That is why tropical plant remains are found in places like Antarctica and the north slope of Alaska. Basically the land around the cracks went way down and a lot of the land rose up, that is where all the water went. Plus with all the rapid change in climate it caused an ' ice age ' which lasted a few hundred years where a large part of the water was frozen in glaciers. When people started to repopulate the earth they could walk to most of the continents, as well as the animals , but as the ice melted and the ocean levels came up it began to separate the islands and continents. Where people built cities in lower areas during this time is why we find buildings and things under the sea. See Walt Brown's book In the Beginning for details of the ' hydro- plate theory ' and much more.

@c2daflow

Ай бұрын

Mt. Everest was probably created after the flood unless. If we find marine fossils up there then we know it was covered by the flood. However the Himalayas don't appear to be eroded over four thousand years so hence they came after the flood.

14:17 Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT Christians.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

I am leaning to agree with that

Isn't there a layer of sediment with marine fossils all over the earth?

I like the thought "Relationship with God first, and then the book." There's some give an take, as the bible is an avenue of grace- but on the whole, you've hit on a very important idea. Especially for us American Christians.

Interesting video, but my problem with the whole "this can be non literal" thing is couldnt this be applied to any other non (historically) true story as well?

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Well it depends on proper exegesis. I do believe given sufficient analysis of the text the genre and purpose of the text and its historical, or in this case, non historical claims become clear. After all we wouldnt consider religious poetry or allegory as literal, for example, when the scriptures said the stars fought among them, it is not claiming that Alpha Centauri came onto earth, etc. So in extension while other stories are more difficult this is not an impossible aim

I agree with you to a point, the whole Bible is to be taken literally. Literally as they are, there's historical accounts, historical records, there's poetry and parables and so on. Psalm in a good example, so much wisdom in that books yet its very poetic in how it communicates, not every sentence is literal, but has a literal meaning if that makes sense? I'm not great at explaining this haha. Anyway I would argue theres more than enough evidence that noahs flood is at least something that could realistically happen. The dimensions of the ark are perfect, its not 'two of every animal' its "two of every kind" far less animals than people think, also theres a sponge like rock within the earth and contained in the sponge like rock(i can never remember what its called) is something like 10x the amount of water than whats on the surface of the earth.

How are we to know what stories in the bible are meant to be taken as real and what should not?

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

They are all real in the broadest sense. If you are asking about historicity, one should then judge it with analysis of genre, development of story, historical analysis and more

@ajclarke9189

4 ай бұрын

The ones that aren’t literal tend to fall into one of three categories: parables, poetry, and wisdom literature. In other words, if it’s not a metaphor or simile such as “wise as serpents, gentle as doves,” or “Lady Wisdom says…” or Jesus saying “the kingdom of heaven is like…” and then telling a story, then it’s a literal, historical account of something that actually happened.

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

⁠@@Phil4Allhahhahahh😂😂😂😂 They are all real in “broadest” sense. What the hell is this?

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

Isn’t that just the church has the final says and can change whenever the church feels like, or I mean need to? The response from this Christian is so ridiculous.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

@@LittleRadicalThinker congradulations for making no argument against any of the points made in the video :)

How do you respond to 1 Peter 3:17-22 which says Jesus preached to the spirits of the people existing when the ark was being built? Doesn't this passage show that the New Testament claims Noah's ark and the flood were historical, real events?

@manub.3847

4 ай бұрын

Sometimes the way you write something down/retell it can lead to confusion. Or turn what was actually a well-known event at a particular time into a mystery for future generations. If in a later millennium someone finds a diary in which it says: "the earth shook and the flood swept people from all over the world to their deaths" (Tsunami 2004, Indian Ocean) Without a detailed explanation, he could probably assume that this was a global flood or a fictional dreamstory..

@michaelszczys8316

Ай бұрын

Flood was a major upheaval of everything. Not just a lot of rain. In some places to a depth of many miles.

advice for Oxford philosophy and theology admissions?

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Research ur subject well and have a certain field in phil the which u really love and can talk about

@HoneyBadger1779

4 ай бұрын

Most of academia has been infiltrated and taken over by fraternities, Marxists, luciferians and satanists.

Good video. The exjw community is a funny one. They believe the shallow Bible info we got is on par with scholarship and surpasses clergy members and church fathers understanding of the Bible.

@Phil4All

5 ай бұрын

Indeed, sometimes its a shame to see so many people loose their faith over objections and ideas which have long been discussed and overcome. In fact, for all the logical fallacies the skeptics like to present, they seem to strawman their own Christianity most, leading them to deconvert

The fact that there are so many flood legends, lends to the story of the fall of Babel. They obviously knew of the story of Noah, then when the people were scattered. They took the story with them. God chose to "work with" a single group of people (the Israelite thru the line of Noah and then Shem). So their story of the flood would be the most accurate. But I digress.... When the people were scattered, they took the story with them. That's why there are so many flood stories. Additionally, the ark isn't ON Mt Ararat.... thw scripture says it "came to rest IN the mountains of Ararat". His approach is full of holes.

I’m not saying that the story of Noah’s Ark is not real. I’m saying that a story passed down through generations might not be what it started out to be.

I like this style of video. Good work!

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed

Regarding Noah's son's, that's when i stopped watching, it was so weak. who knows if he had other son's prior. Yes those three are crucial to the story. People who are crucial to bible stories are not just crucial to the one event, they and their decedents play a role through out biblical history especially those in the lineage of Christ.

The Noah's ark story and the overwhelming evidence for it was actually what turned me around on Christianity so this is kinda hilarious to me lol

@chadkndr

4 ай бұрын

could you direct me to some of the evidence? everything I've seen so far points in the opposite direction. thanks

@derekallen4568

4 ай бұрын

Noah and his sons shoveled shit overboard working day and night. Then thousands of years later, Columbus discovered it.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Do share some of the evidence

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Very helpful mate, you deserve a prize

@killaforrilla5639

4 ай бұрын

Bait comment

If there are events in the bible that didn't occur, ie completely fictional, how would that be applicable to real life? Why would God inspire authors to write fictional stories of acts he didn't commit? Couldn't God simply have done these acts? And if not, what good is making up imaginary events featuring the power of God that actually didn't happen? Your video doesn't debunk the argument, you're agreeing that the flood didn't occur as described in the bible, and that we shouldn't assume that it did. Not what i expected...

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

The video successfully defeats the claim that regardless of how one interprets Noah’s Ark, it doesn’t disprove the Bible. God also inspired poetry and allegory, when Judged 5:20 talks about stars fighting, it doesn’t mean that the stars actually fought. Jesus himself taught in parables fictional stories with moral significance, these are ways which God himself teaches

@unkerpaulie

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All by your own admission, if one interprets Noah's ark as a literal historical event, then you are agreeing that this is a false way to interpret the bible. You are both coming to the conclusion that the flood, and the biblical details regarding it, did not happen. The only difference is that to you it doesn't matter because you don't think the bible is infallible and inerrant, but for many Christians who do view the bible as infallible and inerrant, it matters. Christians are basing their beliefs on fictional stories that they believe actually occurred. And while this doesn't apply to all Christians, fiction in the bible undermines this infallibility.

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@unkerpaulie don’t bother, this guys a joke, he’s not interested and in having any kind of intellectually honest conversation. He changes his position to suit him given the current criticism he faces. He’s a waste of time.

But all you know about this particular god comes from the bible, both directly and otherwise. And all we know for sure was that these texts were written by humans, most likely men. We also know that humans are very good at creating gods and religions and prophets. We have excellent modern examples of that.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Not just the Bible, historians like Tacitus and Josephus confirm the existence of Christ and key elements of his life. It isn’t a black and white issue on this topic, to do so would be to lack the relevant nuance to analyse biblical texts

@bcsr4ever

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All These historians tell us that Christians existed and they tell us what those Christians believed. We also suspect these accounts have had additions over the years. You are still in the position that essentially everything you know about this deity comes from the texts that were written over centuries of ancient times. Some of those texts are not even originally Christian texts but from earlier religious beliefs. Another thing we know from modern times is that people are very good at modifying existing religions to develop new ones.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Look if you apply those historical standards to any historical text you wouldn’t have much of history left. In fact most of history in antiquity are often mixed with mythology and allegory. Therefore, i strongly believe in epistemic consistency, and therefore am slow to jump to dismiss texts prima facie as a result of such accounts. Rather honest historical exegesis i believe requires us to accept the texts as they are as historical texts and theb provide further analysis given contextual, archeological and philosophical reasoning. Just that humans are very good at creating gods doesn’t necessarily mean that any god is problematic or untrue. For example humans are equally as good at self delusion, does not follow that there can be no truth claims ergo post modernism

@bcsr4ever

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All I'm not sure how that changes the reality that all you know about your god comes from the Bible. But let's go there and ask. Does the biblical flood story read more like a historical account or mythology?

@Saintpaul752

4 ай бұрын

well every country on the coast does have a sort of flood theory we also know humans can be surprised with what they learn and discover@@bcsr4ever

Spare me from wasting 20 minutes of my time and tell me upfront if you're a young earth creationist or not?

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Perhaps interact with the argument provided in the video :)

@dirkvader1522

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All I only watched half of it. But I did hear you saying that the flood is allegorical. If that's the case, there's really no argument made.

Theists always pretend it's a metaphor when science proves the Bible is full of lies and contradictions.

Stating the Bible is true because you believe historical fact is not a convincing argument. Considering the documents that we're left out, that in itself shows bias being used. I realise it's not a circular argument but it's still not a good argument.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

The argument was not that it was a good argument, just that it wasn’t circular. That being said, inductive reasoning would suggest that if something is reliable in a large portion, it should likewise be reliable elsewhere.

@johnrangi4830

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All how did you miss that I agreed with that. My point is the example given is not any better than a circular argument if it's not backed by facts which are provable. So it's still a useless argument.

Even as an analogy, or metaphor it is a garbage story. Ken ham building a copy isnt proof it existed.

The whole "noah didnt have children for 400 some years but suddenly had 3" is a dumb argument anyway. My sister was having trouble getting pregnant and then suddenly she had twins. It happens. His arguemtn is the dumbest ive heard in awhile.

I see that video a while back, his content is full of holes

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Yes, there are some challenges to his arguments and approach

Ken ham building an ark is not historical evidence for an ark, that does make any sense whatsoever.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Have you heard of sarcasm

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All It’s hard to distinguish sarcasm from stupidity, especially in theists.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

@@josiahgittman1268 from my experience, it's pretty difficult to do that for atheists as well

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All lol, the ol’ “no you”, a school yard classic.

You can’t have it both ways, you have to pick, either the Bible is historically accurate or is the Bible not meant to be taken literally? When he pokes a hole in the historical veracity of the story, you flip flop into a position of “well some Christians don’t take it literally”, who cares what “some Christians believe?! Are you defending every denomination of Christianity? Because they can’t all be true, the majority of them have conflicting beliefs. Choose a position, and defend it, stop changing your mind based off of what position would be easiest to defend given the current criticism.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Stop writing strawman arguments. If you studied historical interpretation, which is the point of my response, you would know that I haven't chosen that tradition based on "whatever makes it easier to defend", these non-literal interpretations of certain parts of the story predate any of the criticisms against the historicity of the Bible. I would highly recommend doing some study into the history of biblical criticism

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All great, so you choose to interpret some parts of the Bible as not literal, question though, how do you know which parts are literal and which are not?

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All also, I’m not straw manning, you said that 90% of the Bible is historically accurate, in response to some criticism, and then you said that some Christians don’t take parts of the Bible literally in response to a different criticism, it can be hard to recognize cognitive dissonance in yourself, but you my friend, have it bad.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

@@josiahgittman1268 by having a proper understanding of theological tradition, analysis and interpretation which, repeat after me, PREDATES, the modern atheistic/ secular criticism

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All great, so if someone else who also has a strong understanding of theological traditions, interpretation, and analysis comes to a different conclusion than you, how would you know who’s right and who’s wrong? Also, appealing to the age of an argument or position is a fallacy and has no bearing on the validity of the argument or position.

I think the notion that the ark was way smaller than the Titanic yet held an exponentially higher amount of animals than the Titanic held people is an absolutely absurd belief. And what the kangaroos swam all the way to Australia??? 😂😂😂 that is almost as dumb as the Earth being around 6,000 years old😂😂😂

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Congradulations for missing the whole point of the argument

@BANGbucketHEAD

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All cherry picking what can be taken as literal and not?

@Zebranonymousus

4 ай бұрын

Your argument relies on a major, incorrect assumption: that because something is a certain way now, it must have always been that same way. . For a long time it was believed that the indigenous peoples of the North and South American continents crossed a land bridge between modern day Serbia and Alaska. Likewise, the same theory persisted for how the indigenous Australians peopled their continent. These theories were in some part tainted by the assumption that ancient peoples (specifically the ancestors of natives in European-colonized lands) were more technologically primitive than they actually were, but there is still some merit to the theory. Native Australian oral histories suggest that the seas rose significantly some time after they came to the continent, removing some of their hunting grounds. Likewise, modern scientists believe the ocean was about 30 meters shallower than it is now as part of the ice age. The sea rising corresponds with the ice age ending. Thus, modern theories suggest the ocean was far shallower at this time when there were large migrations. Since the Bering Strait is only 40 meters deep, and the seas between Australia, the intermittent islands, and Asia are only 50 to 80 meters deep, it is believed there was much more land to walk and much shorter stretches of ocean which boats of that age could handle. The idea that an ancestor of modern kangaroos crossed that particular stretch of land is not as absurd as you believe. . Additionally, modern taxonomy is a human creation, and the Bible only says a word we translate as "kind". If we were to assume this would be close to the modern classification of "family" and limited to the animal kingdom, that's about 5700 "kinds" currently recognized. About 2000 of those are water-dwelling, and another 2500 are bugs: both groups excluded by the ancient Hebrew terms for "beast" which the text uses. That would leave us with about 1500 "kinds" to account for. The titanic had 2240 people onboard. With these assumptions, there would be more animals on the ark than people on the titanic, but it's not "exponential" like you said. . I'm not particularly married to the idea of it all being literal myself for a variety of reasons, but your argument is silly. It's the kind of stuff you'd hear from New Atheist types from the 2000s.

@BANGbucketHEAD

4 ай бұрын

@@Zebranonymousus there was no land bridge to Australia within the last 600 years so yes it is absurd

@BANGbucketHEAD

4 ай бұрын

@ethanl29 do you think that God buried fossils to fool Sinners and logical thinkers like me? If God created me and my logic that also dismisses him then why create me to begin with?

No, you’re completely wrong, stating that something is true because the Bible says it is, is 100% circular reasoning! The Bible is the claim, it is not evidence, so when someone asks “why do you believe in a claim?” And they answer, “because the claim exists” that is circular reasoning, and if you can’t understand that, well maybe you shouldn’t be making videos like this then.

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

it is not circular reasoning. It might be a bad inductive argument, but it is definitely not circular. Go rewatch the section on why it is not circular reasoning again, and you will notice that you've completely misunderstood the nuance of the argument. If you don't understand the nuance, then perhaps you should stop writing comments :)

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All “it’s true because the Bible says it’s true and the Bible is historically accurate = non-circular reasoning” I watched it. But that just kicks the can down the road, now you have to prove the historical varsity of the Bible (read my other comment for why I think that would be impossible), and if you can’t do that, guess what, your appealing to the claim as evidence for the claim, which is, say it with me now, CIRCULAR REASONING!

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

@@josiahgittman1268 That is still not circular reasoning. If one cannot prove the Bible is historically true, it doesn't make the internal structure of the argument circular. Unless one then results to just saying the Bible is true because the Bible says it is. There is a difference between a bad argument and a structurally poor argument, that's why logicians make the difference between validity and soundness. The point of the response was to say that what he presented was not an example of circular reasoning. Structurally speaking that is the case.

@josiahgittman1268

4 ай бұрын

@@Phil4All Oh. My. God. The Bible is not evidence. If someone says “I believe in god because the Bible says he exists” that is circular reasoning. Why is it circular reasoning? Glad you asked. Because someone is making the claim that a god exists, what do they use to back up this claim? The fact that the claim is in a book they like. So when you boil it down, they believe their claim because the claim exists. Appealing to a claim in support of said claim is circular reasoning. If someone adds to that claim, “and the Bible is historically accurate and everything in the Bible is true.” That is now a separate claim. That claim is not circular, but it is wrong. How do you know that the earth is round? “Because it says it’s round in my favorite book, and that book is always right” this is the last time I’m going to explain it to you, because if you don’t understand by now, you’re a lost cause.

@LittleRadicalThinker

4 ай бұрын

@@josiahgittman1268Haha😂 How do you argue with someone mentally disabled like this Christian? He will get extremely defensive and take a very hard stand on his fallacy, making up all kinds of excuses to the level of hypocrisy and stupidity and arguments will be more and more and more complex to the level it’s impossible to untangle and understand at all. Well, same as any Christian churches, and Islam and any religion, same as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Thüringen bible is fictional get it in your thick head

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Havertz is not that good… get it in your thick head

What a deluded load of rubbish

@Phil4All

4 ай бұрын

Made more points than Havertz unfortunately...

Yes it does destroy the Bible BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED

@justinhawes1593

4 ай бұрын

Did you even watch the video

@fath3rsilco98

4 ай бұрын

Probably not lol

@RagnarLoudpak

4 ай бұрын

Fitting username.

@debunkingdonkey6098

4 ай бұрын

@@justinhawes1593 lol maybe i did does it matter? Even if you take the flood not literally... it's still a garbage story

@justinhawes1593

4 ай бұрын

@@debunkingdonkey6098 I asked because the claim that it “destroys” the Bible is addressed in the video, so it seems weird to being up again unless you just didn’t watch, so you wouldn’t know.