Thanks For Watching!!! Cashapp: $BasketballExamined www.paypal.me/BasketballExamined

@agk9276

3 жыл бұрын

Lol I get tired of everyone at r/nba hating on you. Idk how to use cash app though. If you set your video to premier I could totally donate through super chat. I'm all for that you have a great channel

@Arcanenix

3 жыл бұрын

Keep up the good work. Glad to have you back

@agk9276

3 жыл бұрын

@@Arcanenix smh r/nba

Jordan is gonna take this video personally.

@MistahUnknown

3 жыл бұрын

@ Ibrahim Smith He'll probably take it personally and release another documentary.

@dlbarnes

3 жыл бұрын

Jordan probably doesn’t care, does it change his bottom line?

@dartheinnulfr8986

3 жыл бұрын

@@dlbarnes for him I don’t think it’s about a bottom line. It’s about competition and wanting to be the best at all times, never being outshined.

@floyd9727

3 жыл бұрын

This video is more damning to Kobe’s career than Jordan’s... but I guess he won’t take it personally...

@dartheinnulfr8986

3 жыл бұрын

@@floyd9727 interesting point actually. I notice Kobe never gets mentioned in those GOAT debates.

Obviously rings aren't the only thing that matter. No one is saying horry was better than barkley. But when you talk about greatness and legacy, rings do matter if you are a key player, or the best/2nd best player

@GhostD0G8

3 жыл бұрын

Rings count but instead of taking them at face value I think we should look at how much each rings weighs (how much did the individual contribute and were they a focal point) cause 7 Robert horrys rings as great as they are still pale in comparison to LeBrons 4...we need to appreciate finals appearances more...it to is a hell of an accolade

@tomstorm7926

3 жыл бұрын

@@GhostD0G8 I agree. But when two great players are similar in legacy then you have to use rings into equation. Obviously you can’t just use rings when one player is great and the other is not so great

@ryanwatts3781

3 жыл бұрын

It only matters if you don’t have a championship comparing champions to champions you don’t say one is better than the other because of ring count

@dinoirish5984

3 жыл бұрын

7 rings? Big Shot Bobby is the GOAT!

@canibezeroun1988

3 жыл бұрын

@@tomstorm7926 not the rings but the performances to get them.

Example Kawhi Leonard didn't do it by himself last year. If you listen to US media Kawhi beat the Warriors by himself

@slackerofhell

3 жыл бұрын

Anybody that watched the games should've seen that the only time Kawhi carried was that series against the Sixers. Every other series was a total team effort.

@scorpiocanuck6321

3 жыл бұрын

@@slackerofhell Which was important but yes it was a total team effort. Siakam actually if it wasn't for game 6 could have won Finals MVP. That's how close it was for the Finals

@robdadon2022

3 жыл бұрын

No one said that ppl where talking up spicy p last year

@BruvahSulaiman

3 жыл бұрын

Toronto was literally the best regular season team in the East multiple years in a row even while LeBron was in the East with Kawhi. The only problem they had that kept them out of the Finals was beating LeBron James. They had no way to contain him. Nobody good enough to match his numbers and DeRozen and Lowrey kept choking. But only against LeBron. It's not like they were choking against every team they faced in the playoffs. It was just LeBron in their way. Then Kawhi comes in as an upgrade over DeRozen and simultaneously the one guy who kept beating them LeBron goes to LA so Toronto gets to go through the playoffs without facing LeBron. Upgraded team after already being best in the East. LeBron leaves the East side open. Then Klay and KD get injured after Golden State butchered their roster to sign KD. Everything fell into place for Toronto and Kawhi

@floyd9727

3 жыл бұрын

See Dirk Nowitzki and Hakeem Olajuwon... more so Olajuwon actually did to it mostly by himself...

winning a championship is the ultimate goal for all of these players but rings, just like any other stat, cannot be the *only* metric you use to measure greatness. context is necessary when comparing anything. even if kobe, my favorite player, won in 08 i still would not think he is equal or greater than jordan purely because he has the same number of championships.

@thejesterjester

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with you about the context. I also strongly feel that "the ring argument" is usually oversimplified to argue that rings measure greatness AND to argue the opposite. So you couldn't say that Kobe was greater than LeBron only because he had more rings (I'd say he was because of how he dominated him when they went head-to-head) but equally you can't say that LeBron isn't less great than Jordan only because Jordan's rings aren't so important. My personal measurement of a player's greatness is made up of two things: the domination over the opponents and the ability to pull your teammates to great performance throughout the season(s). This normally leads to rings and finals MVP titles. To simplify lets call these two aspects of greatness 'dominance' and 'leadership'. In dominance my all-time list is: 1 Jordan, 2 Shaq, 3 Kobe, 4 Bird, 5 Kareem, 6 Olajuwon In leadership my all-time list is: 1 Jordan, 2 Magic, 3 Duncan, 4 Bird, 5 Kobe, 6 LeBron It's also interesting how the players changed in these aspects in different parts of their careers.

@ddavis8988

3 жыл бұрын

@@thejesterjester Kobe never dominated LeBron. No idea where that false narrative spawned from. In fact, LeBron is 15-6 against Kobe. www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sn-stats-kobe-lebron-head-head-ages/#:~:text=For%2013%20seasons%20now%20Los,battled%20each%20other%2021%20times.&text=Bryant%20has%20put%20up%2030,has%20done%20it%20eight%20games. LeBron teams has a 71% winning record against Kobe teams, but someone would come out their mouth say Kobe was more dominate. Not only did LeBron beat him twice as much, he statically had better games on both sides of the floor most of the time.

@thejesterjester

3 жыл бұрын

@@ddavis8988 you didn't watch those games did you? Even if LeBron's teams won more often, when they competed directly, Kobe was the dominator to anyone who had eyes - I recommend you watch some footage from the all star game when the old, smaller, less strong Kobe completely shut down LeBron who acted too scared to do anything. And I'm not a Kobe fan by the way.

@ddavis8988

3 жыл бұрын

@@thejesterjester you obviously didn't see the link I just provided you showing LeBron averaging more points, assists and rebounds on better shooting. And yes I watched most of their match ups. Its how I knew someone saying Kobe dominated was BS.

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

@@thejesterjester you don’t know what simplify means

Magic and Bird had the finest teams in NBA history and they were stellar leaders

I really hate when people compare roleplayers rings to superstars rings...its a disingenuous argument.

@chriscj71

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. The word everyone doesn’t seem to understand is context

@robdadon2022

3 жыл бұрын

Right

@jaridatkinson4907

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly

@TaiAkinz

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed

@StillAwesome21

3 жыл бұрын

I think you're the point of them doing that.

If the number of chips a player won does not matter when speaking about which player is better then another because it's a team accomplishment and you can only go far as your team can take you, then finals appearances should be looked at the exact same way

@bboywolf

3 жыл бұрын

GOTTEM

Personally, Kareem is my goat. He's got basically every other accolade a person can get all the way from high school to his retirement in the NBA. But that's my opinion.

@Azariah-Israel

3 жыл бұрын

I can understand that and Respect that bc Kareem actually has a Legitimate case

@slackerofhell

3 жыл бұрын

@@Azariah-Israel the number of people who call me stupid over an opinion is absolutely insane. And it's always the same fanbases every time. Either MJ, LBJ, or Kobe fans.

@bigwoke686

3 жыл бұрын

@@slackerofhell No disagreement here. Kareem has a case for sure.

@Tonio5100

3 жыл бұрын

My ONLY knock on Kareem is that he played with the greatest PG of all time for a nice chunk of his career & if the greatest 2 players at any position TOGETHER can't surpass that 6 threshold that has to hold some kind of weight in the discussion..... Kareem HAND DOWN has the greatest basketball career on lock from high school to the pros & its not even close

@thegoat2874

3 жыл бұрын

Kareem is mines also

I hate when people act like when people use the ring argument that its about rings only... We ASSUME that people know the entire player resume & the rings are like a tiebreaker..... If player A is a 7 time all star 5 times all NBA & player B is a 8 time all star 6 times all nba its too close to call so therefore TEAM SUCCESS will eventually become the tiebreaker would it not? 🤔🤔🤔 Thats why when people bring up guys like Robert Horry I automatically assume they lack major sports knowledge smh

@jaridatkinson4907

3 жыл бұрын

Perfectly stated

@BasketballExamined

3 жыл бұрын

Actually no, you don't break tiebreakers between 2 "individuals" by going to team accomplishments, that makes no sense at all; especially in different eras.

@Tonio5100

3 жыл бұрын

@@BasketballExamined oh really???? Let me ask you who's better Jimmy Butler or Paul George & why 🤔🤔🤔 Also how you gonna say my way makes no sense at all but then you give no solution yourself so how would YOU decide who's better in the scenario I described?

@jaridatkinson4907

3 жыл бұрын

I'll only give the era argument but we've always used rings as part of the criteria just cuz y'all wanna move the goalposts for you boo thang Lebooboo

@TheUndefeatedOfTheEast

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tonio5100 I'll answer for you. George is a better talent but butler is a better player and I personally don't think it's close. Butler has performed in big playoffs games and at every stop he's elevated the potential of his teams. When he leaves a team theres a tremendous drop off in success (bulls, sixers, wolves) also when he joins a team their level of success increases (wolves, sixers, heat). On the other side george is extremely talented but he lacks accountability and he usually shrinks in big moments. I will say he's had a few great games but he shrinks more than he shines. And every team he's left hasn't had a fall of in success. The pacers were still a playoff first round exit but have actually been better since he left. Okc still was a playoff team after he left and the clippers were still a playoff team with him there 1st/2nd round team. In closing if 2 players have similar individual statistics then it's only natural to look at team success as a deciding factor becasue usually both players in question are the best players on their teams and the best players should elevate the overall success of said teams whether it be through getting alot of wins, far in the playoffs, or championship victories.

“True greatness isn’t just about great individual play” those are your words. I’m just wondering criteria when evaluating greatness

Great video as always. Made me rethink the way I not only rank players but also how much stake I put into rings.

Skips face when Dr. J was speaking 🤣🤣

I think that rings can be in the argument but they need to be properly justified by various stats, accolades and the eye test. I don't think it's fair to use rings as your main argument, but I also don't think it's fair to completely eliminate that element. Especially if the case involves a player performing above their previous standard or underperforming. For example, everyone saying Bill Russell is the goat trying to discredit the use of the rings in an argument fails to acknowledge a gap in accolades and stats that sets other players from him. Just like any other part of basketball, it needs to be used in combination with other statistics.

@BruvahSulaiman

3 жыл бұрын

It usually is used with other stats but anti-ringers like to strawman and pretend the ring argument is only a ring argument. Nobody making the case for rings has ever said Horry was the goat or even top 100. Nobody making ring arguments ever says Russell was better than MJ. Because it was always obvious to everyone that the argument for rings was limited to players who similarly lead/carried teams, achieved great stats, won MVPs, All NBA and All Star selections etc.

@CopycatNinja875

3 жыл бұрын

You can assess the role and amount of impact a particular player had in his teams title runs along with the competition that he played. The main reason why ppl dont put russell over jordan is because his competition in the 60s was very weak and he had way more help.

@adonispaloma6664

3 жыл бұрын

@@CopycatNinja875 yeah that’s true as well

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

Y'all just don't get it. There's no reason to include rings and accomplishments. It's just a lazier way to compare and rank players. No one is saying that people only use rings, the point is that championships and team success don't need to be used at all. You talk about context. Ok so if context matters, then what's the point of even considering the end result? Just look at everything they did individually.

@christophergooding9820

2 жыл бұрын

But Russell has 5 MVPs I fail to see how he didn't have the proper accolades. That's more MVPs than anyone but Jordan (tied) and Kareem. As for the other accolades, DPOYs didn't exist his whole career, FMVP existed for 1 season, the one year all defensive teams were a thing he was first team despite being in his last year. As for stats, he regularly led the playoffs in rebounds as well as defensive win shares, which were the only defensive stats at the time. And he led teams that were all time great defenses but average- below average offenses. So even if he wasn't amazing statistically on the offensive end, that doesn't make too much sense. If there's an offensively dominant team like the 87 Lakers, we give credit to the most important offensive player in Magic Johnson. But we don't seem to do the same when it comes to defense. And even looking at his offensive stats, in the early 60s at least, he was often the top offensive player on his team if you look at points, assists, and field goal percentage combined. While after like 63/64, his scoring tapered off, before then (so for about half of his championships) he was one of the top scorers in the league as well as being one of the top assist getters, and in a category of his own for a big man. And besides just the stats, the Celtics offensive strategy was getting stops, rebounds, and then Russell would often throw an outlet pass to start the fast break. He was the most important part of the defense and offense for his whole career, even if he wasn't as impactful in the later part of his career. And that's not even mentioning things like screening which was a big part of his offensive role.

So many people need to see this video man

FACTS!!! I love this video!💯💯💯

Great Video!

In the same breath people say LeBron beat a 73-9 team never mentions the Cavs. They always say LeBron Took a garbage team to the finals but never look at how good defensively those teams were. This argument for the goat has overhyped some players and disrespected a lot of players and eras on both sides.

@jackjax7921

2 жыл бұрын

Where are the Cavs now? 😂😂

Doc lost a lot in the finals so I could see him saying that. Finals MVPs says more to me that just rings because bench players get rings. Stats are also misleading because rules change and guys like Lebron and Westbrook pad stats. Basketball is like Hip Hop. Big difference with what is being produced now.

@applycontext9161

3 жыл бұрын

But Lebron has 4 rings and 4fmvps

@jemirtoussaint3440

3 жыл бұрын

Lmaooo Lebron is a winner you sound insane

@LargeDude2023

3 жыл бұрын

@@applycontext9161 4 finals MVPs is a great accomplishment.

@LargeDude2023

3 жыл бұрын

@@jemirtoussaint3440 yep not one, not two ... but 4 out of 10 in 17 years is a great accomplishment.

@applycontext9161

3 жыл бұрын

@@LargeDude2023 then why are you acting as if he just puts up empty stats

You got the GOAT Clyde talking and The Goat Wilt just inspirational

Two players did it being the only all stars on their teams... ironically both foreign, Dirk Nowitzki in 2011, and Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon in 1994. Both teams had players that went above the call... but both were hands down the best player on their team. I know the Mavs were underdogs to the Heat, and Rockets had home court but it was still pretty even...

Don't bring role players and bench warmers to ring talks, it's an exception, franchise players ONLY!

@MistahUnknown

3 жыл бұрын

That's called being selective/cherry-picking to find accolade stats that fit your narrative.

@MistahUnknown

3 жыл бұрын

@@adonispaloma6664 I have no idea what you just said.

@g1kluang

3 жыл бұрын

@@MistahUnknown Exactly! Jordan's fanbase cherry picks every stats that makes him superior! I agree he popularized the world of basketball, but this is a team game. Instead of debating who's the best player, maybe we should start debating which team was the best team to win the championship!

@MrBakerman58

3 жыл бұрын

JeevS I don’t know how you cherry pick Jordan’s career you can try and downplay his first 8 years we’re he showed he can lead a team and stats and bring them to the playoffs then from there go on to have one of the best careers on nba history so you can’t cherry pick Jordan’s career when it’s all great

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrBakerman58 that’s some convincing denial ya got there

2 vids in 2 days 💪🏼 great to have u back BE🔥💯

The reason KZread NBA accounts is better than TV NBA analysts is simple. People just watch whoever they put on TV, we have no choice, they can show the same analyst 8 hours a day if they really want to. KZread accounts on the other hand, have limited budget and have little to no controls over their audience and hence, only the best survive. KZread NBA accounts with thousands of subscribers, have that many for a reason. Keep up the good work Basketball Examined!!

2 uploads in a row 👀

This is going to be great

The GOAT title is something that is earned and passed onto the next great player. Every record by the great players of the past are meant to be surpassed by the greats of today and the greats of the future. In terms of winning, rings and championships matter in terms of team accomplishment. Basketball is a team sport and the goal every year is to bring home the chip.

Ok if we're gonna make winning a ring down to just a team accomplishment we gotta do the same with Finals Appearances, teams make the Finals, not one individual

@Ben-hl5mu

2 жыл бұрын

That's the whole point of this video, that you can't evaluate an individual by just looking at team success, because some teams are better than others. That includes Final appearances.

MJ had 3 HALL OF FAMERS NOT INCLUDING HIS HALL OF FAME COACH

@Ben-hl5mu

2 жыл бұрын

Facts. People out here in the comments section are acting like MJ single handedly won 6 ring. Yes MJ is a great, but he wouldn't have any rings if he didn't have descent teammates.

@nelnel2183

Жыл бұрын

Bruh MJ has less all star teammates BUT Pippen and Rodman are great defensively. Meanwhile LeBron may have more all star teammates but is Kyrie a defensive juggernaut? Is Love a rebounding machine? Sure they can play defense but not as elite. The only times IMO that LeBron has better defense teams, not just offense are the Miami Heat championship teams and 2020 one. Not to take away that special 2016 title tho. Came back in a 3-1 deficit, but at the same time why are they in a 3-1 deficit in the first place at that time? If LeBron has like MJ's teammates like Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kerr, Kukoc, etc. Better perimeter defenders? I don't think Warriors will have that 3-1 lead. Also all star games are popularity contests. Sure best players can get to play on those games but there are times some players deserved to be all stars but didn't get to be there, as well as some players who don't deserve to be all stars get to be there. So yeah...

Larry Bird did turn that Celtics team around after his arrival as a rookie, Dwyane Wade has to do some research

@ericdupree8603

3 жыл бұрын

He said he didn't do it my themselves, look again. That 81 and 86 championship teams Bird had 3 HOF and 4 HOF when they won, but oh Larry Bird never won with a stacked roster. He did it himself which is false

@sekizo1728

3 жыл бұрын

not relly parish and mchale came in the same year aswell who are all so hof

Comparing and contrasting MJ and LeBron diminish their overall achievement. But what does the debate say? Americans need a definitive number one and two, we teach our children this, in fact, we do it at work or home. While the ring argument is flawed we use it when we are incapable of making a coherent argument. I’ve heard both camps make arguments and at the end the number of rings come up. We take away from players like Bird, Kareem, and Magic when we focus on two players. Jordan and LeBron are both great players we remarkable achievements. Does Michael feel some kind of way of course he is competitive. People with a competitive drive seek to win at all costs. The bottom line enjoy the players because when they are gone. You will be upset because you miss out on greatness.

Here's the clip that was being discussed by LeBron, Jalen & Jacoby, and Max Kellerman: kzread.info/dash/bejne/maejss6afbXQhbQ.html

Shit, am I the only one who watched laat season where Lebron activated "watch playoffs from home" mode?

2 videos in 2 days😳

Meh...using the team excuse in an era of free agency, player empowerment, and superstar influence in the front office hurts this imho... The argument that Dr. J made would hold weight if Lebron didnt team up with allstars.

@BasketballExamined

3 жыл бұрын

Right, so the Cavs losing in 2007 counts against LeBron? How about 2015 without Love and Irving? 2017 against arguably the greatest team in NBA History? What about 2018 with a clearly inferior team? That's all on LeBron? It's a team game. Not 1 vs 5, player empowerment or not.

@LeoBan99

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-hq4et2wm4v harden is a playoff choker, don't @ me.

@IconEnjoyer

3 жыл бұрын

@@BasketballExamined 2011 finals choke says hi

@playthatagainbruh394

3 жыл бұрын

@@BasketballExamined he gets credit for each of those teams success so he equally takes blame for their shortcomings. To be clear 2007 IS his fault. He is celebrated for a finals run but conveniently left out was playing a 7th seed (41 win team), a 6th seed (41 win team) and a Pistons team sans Wallace (3x DPOY and Rim Protector) and a HOF coach in Brown. He followed this up by getting SWEPT shooting 35% from the field and 20% from 3pt and under 70% from the line. Yes we can put this on Lebron. 2015 he was overmatched but lets not forget he tried to stack the odds in his favor getting a PF who avg 26ppg and 13 rebounds as the THIRD OPTION. Lebron also shot UNDER 40% as a player who takes a 1/3 of his shots inside of 3ft and was a turnover machine. 2017 his team made a midseason trade that provided depth that acquired Hill who was leading the league in 3pt shooting at the time, Clarkson avg 16ppg and Hood avg 17ppg. After a 40pt blowout vs the Celtics didnt Lebron say "We got a f****** squad now"? 2018 After an alltime great performance in G1 in regulation he went 0 for 5 in overtime. After the game instead of being encouraged they nearly stole a game on the road...didnt Lebron punch a wall and fracture his hand/wrist? Lebron is an amazing talent but the Lebron System (which ironically you yourself made a video about) isnt a winning strategy. Running a stagnant heavy spread iso/pnr system doesnt lend itself to wins (see: Nash, Harden, Giannis, and even Lebron). Lebron didnt run the 'Lebron System' this year. Yes he got assists but he still had a secondary ballhandler (Rondo) distributing (previously Lebron would have micromanaged this) in addition to having AD as well.

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

@@playthatagainbruh394 he’s been to the finals 10 times but it isn’t a winning strategy? I guess I’m dumb

Championships aren’t the end-all-be-all critique for all time greats but you can’t completely remove it from ranking all-time greats. You need to knit pick every little thing, and take the totality of their career. Why and how did you lose? Did you fold up? Were you able to elevate your team as the leader/best player on the team? How consistent and proficient were you in the clutch?

Rings will always matter and matter a lot because the goal of basketball is about WINNING and devaluing the ultimate accomplishment is dumb.

@Ben-hl5mu

2 жыл бұрын

This argument is the kind of argument and idiot makes. Yes, you can judge a TEAM by how winning they are. But the argument falls apart when you talk about individual greatness. KD won rings with the Golden State Warriors when he went there. He was a top 2 player on that team, you could argue he was their best player. If we instead signed with a team like the Bobcats, think he would have any rings right now? Nope. Does that mean KD would have somehow been a worse player or should get less credit for his career if he signed with a shit team vs. one of the best teams in NBA history? Also nope. He's a great player, but he won because he was on a great team. No GOAT caliber player has ever won a ring on a shit team. Jordan didn't, Magic didn't, Kareen didn't, Kobe didn't etc. If Jordan played with a team like the 2011-2012 Bobcats his whole career and won 0 rings which would have likely been the case, does that mean he's not in the GOAT conversation? Of course not, smarten up.

i think it is more flawed to just look at points rebounds and assist and say which ever guy has more categories is better. rings matter. you play to win the title. every year should be championship or failure if youre a real competitor. so winning championships should always be on the list of things we should look at when comparing all time greats. skill set should also be something that we look at. how a guy scores should matter. if a defense stops your initial move to score do you have to pass your way out of the situation or can you counter what the defense gives you. playoffs 2 years in a row we have seen teams build a wall in the paint to stop giannis to prevent his euro step/spin move combo. right now he has no counter so even as a 2x mvp hes hurting his team by not developing a wider skill set to win in the playoffs. right now he has 2 options to get the his goal of winning a championship he can develop his skills more not demand a trade to a new or team or ask his team to find a top 5 player in the league to bring to his team or he can say i need to get more all stars around me in order to win and keep his limited skill set. jordan never asked for anyone to be traded to his teams. kobe asked the lakers to get rid of shaq so that he could be seen as the number 1 guy. that the opposite of this current generation of talent who when they lose dont take it upon themselves to develop more skill but instead look to jump teams or bring guys to their team

@josuerojas4157

3 жыл бұрын

If a franchise doesn’t do shit for you then you don’t deserve to give them anything back in return ESPECIALLY when you’re an all time great. It doesn’t make sense to stay in a Franchise that doesn’t compete at all time level, lebron from 2003-2011 had so many bad rosters but yet made the best of it, do you really think if he had stayed in Cleveland they would’ve make a championship team? It goes both ways.

@vicshephard9231

3 жыл бұрын

@@josuerojas4157 nobody in the league wants to be in Cleveland. Bron would have been ring free had he stayed in Cleveland all those years. There's no way Cleveland would beat any Western finals squad. He would've kept it real though. In his HOF speech he could talk about how real he was.

So basically play for yourself and own stats because if y’all don’t win you can’t take any blame it’s all your teammates fault 😂the love for LeBron has made losing ok and stats mean everything but guess what LeBron still trying his hardest to win rings this video is salty as hell basketball is going to turn into a 1on1 sport soon if this keeps up

It ain’t about how many rings you got It’s about how you did it. And who was most Important Just like any relationship

@lawrencemcdonald9212

3 жыл бұрын

@TruMusic89 facts

People bring up championships in a debate I quit talking to them

@MistahUnknown

2 жыл бұрын

@ ROME RUSH Same.

Rings can be a part of your argument, but they should never be your primary argument. They need context (stats, eye test, etc.) like anything else.

@attackthem8908

6 ай бұрын

They should be the last thing in the argument when it comes to comparing individual players and their abilities vs each other, and the players roles on winning those championships should be contextualized in that argument.

Can all agree that there is no point in finding a GOAT??? Different eras, different contexts, different positions, different systems, different technology...It's exhausting the comparison and it didn't even mean to exist. Please let it die..

Finals MVPs, dominance, accolades, imprint left on the game there's a reason why the most important players on a team wears 23........

@wizdumbbk

3 жыл бұрын

you have to remember that Imprint on the game has a lot to do with corporate marketing. There were people that never saw MJ play that called him the best because Nike and Gatorade said he was the best. The "like mike" commercials were everywhere. a large part of the reason people think MJ is the GOAT is not based on what he did on the court, but based on what corporate marketing and media put together

@DP_1605

3 жыл бұрын

@@wizdumbbk and the same will and does happen for most all time greats just not to Jordan’s extent. Most ppl’s top 10’s consist of 50% of players they never watched

@drkdze

3 жыл бұрын

@@wizdumbbk Jordan is the reason the NBA is global. So you think they saying he great because a bunch of commercials!?!?Only people that didn't see MJ play would think like this. Lol

@jijmotorp3079

3 жыл бұрын

for more than half of basketball existence, 23 was just a random number...

@DP_1605

3 жыл бұрын

@Bob George I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me

I remember Charles Barkley saying on inside the NBA during Cavaliers coaching fiasco that he wasn’t mad that’s he didn’t win a championship because the other guys would be benefiting from his hard work.

Damn in the beginning Skip was hating this that Dr. J said that going to 8 Finals is more impressive that the Record.

ROSE JUST SAID HE THINKS JORDAN AND LEBRON ARE NECK AND NECK AND THIS WAS YEARS AGO!!!

Song name?

I understand when people use the rings argument within the context it deserve. When you compare players you have to take in consideration what they were able to do when they find themselves in a position to win. And the only thing I always makes me pick Jordan as my favorite is his mentality, his madness to persecute that desire to be the best. And sure when you compare both, Lebron did lost having a better team than his rival, also playing very below his level. It's not the end of the world, but for me at least it's a separator. Also it's 100% subjective and I'll never be mad a someone who picks lebron or any other of the all time greats because they are in the same group (mj, magic, kareem, wilt, russell, duncan, bron, shaq, kobe, etc)

Hey bro be sure to inject your own objective analysis into the video. I loved that👌🏿 This was just a bunch of clips thrown together.

B.E. you're about to make Lebron haters mad again 🤣

Ironically, every athlete in this video that said something about the ring argument loss in the Finals

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

Most of em won some too tho.

@chrisgibson2106

3 жыл бұрын

@@No-Hassle but, none of them have that undefeated record in the Finals. That's a whole different club that not too many greats are in.

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisgibson2106 That’s grounds to dismiss them?

@chrisgibson2106

3 жыл бұрын

@@No-Hassle a lot of those guys have a personal vendetta against Jordan.

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisgibson2106 I can understand IT possibly having a vendetta, I don’t know about the rest.

When discussing the greatest players of all time The only flaw in the "rings" argument is when it's the only argument!! but in my opinion championship wins will always more important than most other stats/accolades because "you play to win the game!!!"

Finals MVP and Championships are the highest accolades.

If rings aren't everything then Wilt is the Goat

@NealBones

3 жыл бұрын

Facts

@user-hq4et2wm4v

3 жыл бұрын

you mean the playoffchoker who averages 18 points in 47 minutes for his finals career?

@randomguy96

3 жыл бұрын

Ntsakiso Chauke Rings aren’t everything, but they are something. The point is that people can’t use rings alone to say which players are better than who. You need to consider other factors like how you preform in the playoffs, how many awards you won, how thought were the opponents you faced, etc. For me, Jordan is the GOAT not solely because he has more rings and that he has a better Finals record than LeBron but for other reasons

Basketball Examined is definitely a LeBron fan.

@ericdupree8603

3 жыл бұрын

You're both wrong

@MistahUnknown

2 жыл бұрын

@ Lsaac Navarro I don't think so. I've seen some of his videos that aren't necessarily "pro-LeBron" videos.

This needs to be shared. A LOT

The best time to see those who are purposely blind, is when the truth is being laid down in front of them, and they still cannot see it.

The Robert Horry example points to not all rings being created equal. Jordan won all his rings at a time where there were no other great players healthy and in position to win. The only one was Hakeem and he won two championships.

Facts

The Horry and Russell counter arguments are dumb. Horry was a role player never looked at as a top player in the league. In Russell case he dominated with only 8 teams before ABA merger and had a boatload of Hall of Fame teammates his teams was clearly head and shoulders above the rest it wasn’t even a contest most times

@christio5874

3 жыл бұрын

you can't hold that against him. He was born in that era. That's like faulting jordan for playing in a watered down expansion era with 6 different expansion teams.

@christio5874

3 жыл бұрын

@TruMusic89 so were the 1990-1998 bulls they only went to 2 game 7s throughout his championship runs. But we call that dominance if its lebron etc its a cakewalk. Non of the teams he beat in the playoffs won a championship when he retired twice expect the lakers but that was a completely different team

@christio5874

3 жыл бұрын

@TruMusic89 you do realize the 1990s was more defense oriented. Lots of scores were below 90 hell the jazz scored 54 in a finals game. Now players are so much more skilled that scoring is hard to stop. You can't compare the scoring output of today's game with those of the 90s

@the757general2

Жыл бұрын

A very common misconception is that Bill Russell played against weak competition. There was only 8-12 teams in the league, but less teams meant more competition because teams only kept the best players. Celtics were the league's best team, but they were hardly the only stacked team. Damn near every team was stacked back then.

Wilt does not sound at all like i thought lol

Because it’s a team sport

The argument is about the face of the nba with rings so saying Robert horry has 7 rings is flawed did he have the pressure to lead a franchise and be the face of the nba that’s why the ring argument still and always goes to Jordan 🤷🏾‍♂️........also I had to add LeBron which is 4-6 more appearances which is great but he lost some finals he should’ve won so that has to factor in somewhere and Bill 11 it was 12-13 teams in the league still great but hey my opinion

You must take rings at a certain value with certain players. You’re going to count rings with a superstar player more than you are with a role player.

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

That’s not the point though.

No the thing about it is most the players STAYED with their team through thick and thin Lebron left won then went back and teamed up and then left again and teamed up

Videos like this are the perfect material to "dismantle" the overexaggerated legacies of some of the all-time greats and give more credit to some of the best players the game has ever seen.

2:08 MJ plotting charles barkleys murder

With just the eye test mike was a better player!

Even with out the ring stat shows that Joarden was a better player.

Having guys on the court to do their jobs well is the key u dont need a super team or a big 3 to do it n b4 anyone starts with the 3peat bulls with Rodman he was not a 20+ scorer and Toni Kukoc was drafted they had 2 stars and a bunch of role player that did their job well

I played ball and lost . I can tell you give me the rings

@DeacSpeaks14

3 жыл бұрын

💯

Who's greater a player with 10 mvps and no championships or a player with 10 rings and no mvps

@antoniosmith1697

3 жыл бұрын

MVPs because til this day its a gang of people that say Wilt was better than Bill Russell but Russell just had better teammates thats all

John Stockton gets left off a lot of lists, as does Karl Malone, because rings... And, I suppose PG and PF are/were positions that limited a skillset because specialization, but Stockton will be left off most people's 1st, 2nd and even 3rd all-time any-time dream team compositions. Point being, left off because rings, though also being on a small-market team. Dream Team 1992 was truly composed of the best, plus the set aside for College player (20/20 hindsight, Shaq would have been that spot).

6:19 Lebron has played with great talent in his career Kyrie, Love, Wade, Bosh and AD so Lebron not having help is out the window

End all be all. No question The Goat Wears number 23.

Barkley played with Scottie to and the Dream/Dr.J/

The Jalen Rose argument doesn't make sense. Him bringing Kobe played with Shaq. Didn't LeBron play with Wade, Kyrie, Love, AD, Bosh?

@johncena4096

3 жыл бұрын

None of them are as great as shaq stop it

Wilt killed dat dude😂

Why do you even play basketball and not aspire for a ring?

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

That’s not the point though

ok but rangzzzzz is only a small part of the argument. and it does factor in depending on your logic and definition of great

@billthegoatrussell6608

3 жыл бұрын

But if a guy doesnt have a good team how is he suppose to win?

Nobody has said magic, Michael and Larry did it by themselves. Don't know what wade was talking about. His head wasn't bleached yet so he should have been thinking straight.

Why did LeBron, lose to Dirk? We all knew the heat had the best team? It's more than just the individuals.

Championships enhance a legacy not create it.

Lol it’s funny to see the standard for greatness change. Lbj and his team has done a great job changing the narrative and criteria. Any generational player that is drafted is accountable to win a ring. The more rings you win the greater fans said you were. Now it’s ok to lose long as you got great stats .

@Ben-hl5mu

2 жыл бұрын

Your argument is dumb and just goes to show how 1-D your simple mind works. Yes, a great player gives there team a better chance to win a championship. And if this was an individual sport like golf or tennis I would agree with you more. But you've got a dozen or so other guys on your team, and they're performance also impacts if you win. Jordan won his last 3 rings with 2 other Hall of Famers. Scotty Pippen nearly won a championship with the Bulls WITHOUT Jordan or Rodman, which shows you just how good the Bulls team was even when Jordan was out. Then you add Rodman, the best percentage rebounder of ALL TIME and one of the defensive GOATS and when your team is stacked like that it's hard to win a championship. Even Steve Kerr who is often overlooked was one of the best 3 point shooters of the 90s and helped that team space the floor. I'm not necessarily saying that a guy like LBJ is greater than Jordan, but look at the first like 7 years of his career on the Cavs. The Cavs were a shit team both before and after Lebron left. They won 17 games the year before he joined, and 19 games the year LBJ joined the heat. They sure as hell weren't winning 60+ games and were championship contenders like Pippen did when Jordan went to play baseball, and that was before they added Rodman. The fact that LBJ help take a garbage team like the Cavs to the final against the loaded Spurs teams is probably the greatest Cinderella story in the history of the NBA despite them not winning the championship. What other team in NBA history has been that weak but made it the the finals? Lots of people like to say the Sixers with Iverson, but the Sixers had defensive player of the year, six player of the year, coach of the year, and were one of the best defensive teams in the league and were better defensively with Iverson off the court then on. Now sure, guys like MJ and Kareem are all time greats, but I guarantee you that if they played on a team like the 2003-2010 Cavs their whole career they wouldn't have many rings if any at all. And I also guarantee you that they wouldn't have won many rings if they were going up against the Warriors with Steph, Clay, Durant, Green, and Iggy who I would argue is the strongest team ever assembled, with maybe only the late 90s Bulls on par with them. No other team in the 90s was on par with that Warriors team. So yeah, you should look at how a players impact on their team, not just how well their team did as a whole, because team success does depend on your teammates and no HOF player no matter how good they are is going to ring a ring if their teammates plays like the 2011-2012 Bobcats.

@jmar5127

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm, funny cuz when had zero rings they still said he was the best player ever, when he had 3 rings and retired they still said he was the best. So no the narrative hasn't changed. What has changed is fans like u has turned basketball into a individual based act while hating on 1 man in Lebron james because he challenges your fav of all time.

LeBron did diminish his brand by teaming with Bosh and Wade. No ands ifs or buts about it.

It's a difference when you led a team to 6 rings and riding other great players waves to rings

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

That’s not the point though. Not matter how good you are, you can’t win by yourself. Like Kareem said, you could do everything right, and your teammate does one thing wrong, and you could lose. Statistically, you can’t win by yourself.

When has lebron shown loyalty to anyone 1 then the change of rules and all them players are man because the didn't get the mj respect but why one can be great they compared mj because they seen nothing like him...but it was because he didn't allow no one really to eat and miss 2 years while a man joins super teams in a tik tac era

@No-Hassle

3 жыл бұрын

What?

@TH-ph9br

3 жыл бұрын

English tf??

The main reason we are talking about this is because of this same "media". Every day on every show, there's a conversation about the GOAT. Any person with some common sense knows there will never be a GOAT as long as the game is still being played and you can't compare Bill to MJ nor MJ to LBJ. Yet we hear it every day on TV. As for me, I saw MJ played and being a Bulls fan, I'll say MJ all day as a BBall fan and that's with no stats or rings.

Honestly it’s not so much about the amount of rings...more so you’re individual contribution that people hold dear.

The real problem with the Jordan vs LeBron GOAT debate is that for some reason LeBron is the only player in history that can lose and people LIKE YOU will say it doesn’t matter that he lost he’s still the greatest. Win/Loss records are kept for a reason they’re in every sport. I’m not saying losing is a bad thing but it doesn’t change the fact that it happened.

@fury_021

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah people think those 4 wins and 6 loses surpass 6 rings and 0 losses with two 3 peats... Ok you may say rings don't count what about the MVPs fmvps scoring titles all defensive team Mj has more of them ( even though LeBron player longer)... The records he made and broke people neglect these things. LeBron has a great resume but it is not enough to put him ahead of mj. Jordan doesn't need his rings... His other accolades would still beat lebron's... LeBron best of our generation..

@wizdumbbk

3 жыл бұрын

The reason they say it does not matter is because wins and losses is a team result. in order to compare players on wins and losses you will have to prove they had equally strong teams and were playing equally strong competition. once all things are equal then you ask who performed better. For example, When the Cavs played the Warriors in the first finals match up both Kyrie Irving and Kevin love got hurt, so the 2nd and third best players on the team were not available. but we count that finals loss as if it is Lebrons fault. How many finals games did Jordan win without his 2nd and third best player on the floor?

@TPD45

3 жыл бұрын

@@wizdumbbk That’s called life bro

@wizdumbbk

3 жыл бұрын

​@@fury_021 1) MVPs- this is an award that is voted on (by people who do not play) that even the voters acknowledge DOES NOT go to the est player in the league. 2) Finals MVP- this is an award that is voted on (by people who do not play) that is given to the best player on the best TEAM. it is never given to the best overall player in the finals, except the for the first time it was given, when Jerry West got it in a loss. 3) scoring titles cannot be compare when looking at a player who's primary desire is not to score. over Jordan's career he avg about 23 shots a game and avg 30ppg. Lebron avg about 19.6 shots a game for his career and avg 27ppg (a better FG% BTW). so OF COURSE he would not score as many point, he does not shoot as much. The only people you should compare to MJ when it comes to scoring is other people that took 23 shots a game. then we will see who is better 4) All defensive teams- again an award that is voted on but Lebron stopped playing hard defese in the regular season once he left Miami. Why? because he knew he would have to carry an infeior team into the finals and he wanted to extend his career. to compare. to compare MJ and Lebron in most of these categories is like saying MJ beat Lebron at something Lebron was not even trying to do. you get no points for that

@wizdumbbk

3 жыл бұрын

@@TPD45 Exactly, that is life. so the only reason to say Jordan is better is because "Sh*t happens" not because he is objectively better

ugh. ESPN and all these clowns are so annoying. We didn't USED TO MEASURE THESE THINGS at all. We just had conversations, and that's it. But nowadays because there's 4-5 different espn stations and fox sports stations with debates 24/7, they have to find something to argue about and it always falls on the side of pimping out the merchandise. Having the same companies that broadcast the game also be the same companies that determine who is the best player is always going to guarantee that the best players ever are the ones currently playing. It doesn't help their bottom line to say "hey, spend 6 hours this sunday watching this product even though the best players to ever play this game all retired 20 years ago". It's against their best interests to admit that 90's ball >>>>>> today's garbage. If they were honest, and if you talked to these guys while the cameras were off or just having a beer w them at a cookout, they would ALL admit, (yes even toucan sam nick wright) that 80's-90's NBA was the best era for basketball and today's players aint shit!!!

People misunderstood Jordan with the rings argument, it was a subtle diss at his ability to lead a team. The Bulls teams were not the most talented rosters, in comparison they were probably the worst. However the beginning qoute in the video explains his rings argument if u caught it

@Ben-hl5mu

2 жыл бұрын

What the hell are you talking about? Jordan played with two HOFers. When Jordan took a vacation to play baseball the Bulls went 60+ wins are were legitimate championship contenders even without Jordan or Rodman. Even if you took Jordan off the Bulls during their six championships, the Bulls were still a solid team.

The argument against the ring argument is a straw man. No one making a good argument ever *only* counted rings. Obviously the real argument has always been everything about a player plus their rings. Rings don't define your career. Rings *and everything else* does. Jerry Rice is the greatest WR ever. He has the stats *and* the rings. Nobody is going to take a placekicker who might have been on more championship teams and say he's a better football player than Rice based on rings. You play to win the game. Winning the championship is heavily weighted as it should be. But it never stopped ppl from ranking Moss and TO 2 and 3 after Rice. As great as they were they didn't win rings or surpass Rice's stats.

Like any other metric, championships should be a part of the argument, not the argument itself. They also should not be removed from the argument.

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

They should be removed.

@brandon.crotchett

3 жыл бұрын

@@carusohighlightreel4275 your reason for this being?

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

@@brandon.crotchett Championships are not individual accomplishments, it’s that simple. No matter how great you are, in order to win, you have to be in a right situation. Like Elgin said in the video, “you can only go as far as the team can take you”. This is simply the fact that there is too much out of one player’s control. When you say “championships matter”, you’re using the championships themselves, but then people will say “context matters”, and to that I say, what’s the point of considering the championship itself if you consider all the context, kinda redundant. So yeah, don’t use championships, and just look at what a player does individually.

@brandon.crotchett

3 жыл бұрын

@@carusohighlightreel4275 then by your logic, anything a player does in a team sport is not individually. Whether it’s awards that are decided subjectively by other people (out of the player’s hands), or statistics, which rely on teammates to accomplish. You can’t get an assist without someone to pass the ball to. You can’t score if all 5 opposing players are guarding you (many mention Kobe, Jordan, LeBron on “bad teams” even though they still had teammates taking up bodies). One can’t rebound if they’re getting boxed out by 4 other guys. And good luck getting a steal or a block in 5-on-1 with that ball movement. It’s a team sport, no matter how you slice it, it takes a team to win, put up numbers, and take home awards. No one player ever truly does it on his own. And for my final point. Athletes play to win, whether it be the game or the title. Excluding that from these arguments literally removes the main purpose and drive of sports players.

@carusohighlightreel4275

3 жыл бұрын

@@brandon.crotchett You’re looking at it wrong. I’m not saying winning doesn’t matter, I’m simply saying an accomplishment is meaningless on its own. It adds no unique value, ergo it doesn’t need to be considered. The point players in a team sport never truly accomplishing anything completely on their own is somewhat true for very vague descriptions. Regardless, it doesn’t disprove what I’m saying.

The only problem with Lebron is that he has done the " I leave my team coz it sucks" three times. Well, I don't recall any other superstar that did this but again I don't know any other superstar that aged so well. One could argue that no other superstar has chased the rings as much as Lebron. Finally, one could also argue that this era allows of such things while in the past things were a little more structured and strict. Rings or not, MJ will be the GOAT coz simply put, he played the game in it's most savage form and he sacrificed a lot of things to make that team work. He only left when Bulls decided to blow the team.

Teams can't even build there team because if they haven't won a ring in 3 years they blow up the team

LePED James

One thing everyone should take from this video is the dumbing down of the ring argument. Trying to evaluate a player's greatness is not a science so its base on opinionated factors that can't really be applied fairly or unbaiasly. For me MJ's greatness is his dominance ( him being the best player doing a era that was builded for Big men ), his style and statistically he is one of the greatest and LBJ for is his longevity along with his statistically dominance for a career. I hold both those achievements above just championships

It’s not boxing