We really need to create a Frank Herbert ghola and let him finish the series after he "regain" his memories.

@KebradesBois

4 жыл бұрын

Miguk Moonpark but who would he have to try to kill first? ^^

@paulanderson3772

4 жыл бұрын

@@KebradesBois A ghola of Duncan no less. Lol.

@Blackerer

4 жыл бұрын

@@KebradesBois He would not have to kill anyone. He would just have to suffer a major emotional breakdown by bringing his current persona in a serious conflict with his to-be-awaken persona. Like reading the books his son wrote with Kevin J Anderson :D.

@Brainfryde

4 жыл бұрын

@@Blackerer First thought I had when I read this as well :)

@KebradesBois

4 жыл бұрын

@@Blackerer Hahahaha !!! You're too cruel... XD

Frank Herbert had written 6 Dune books, while Kevin Anderson, with the addition of Brian Herbert's name on the covers has written about a dozen. That's twice as many books as Frank wrote. There must have been a shitload of notes. If not, there is a shitload of something else!

@Svensk7119

2 жыл бұрын

There always are. A lot of notes. Trouble is, many of the notes are things the author decided not to publish. Christopher Tolkien has probably been more austere and restrained than Brian Herbert. For the record, I ended despising the Dune books, recognizing only the 1st. The story just seems to exist without actually telling a tale.

@uliwitness

2 жыл бұрын

I have LOTS of notes and ideas when I write. A lot of them are (to me), obviously only to inform my writing. Others are ideas for a cool scene that I would love to do, but that I may later realize doesn't fit in the overall story. When I write multi-part stories, I often have a full 3-story plan, and then when writing the first one become aware that certain things don't work as intended. So I cut out bits of story, sometimes without replacement. But I rarely get around to updating my notes. All of that matches what Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson delivered: They had Frank Herbert's notes, containing some discarded ideas, or ideas he wasn't sure about (remember, they said it was a copy of notes in a safe, so probably not updated daily). They had to decide which to use and which to ignore. They also said themselves that there was so much backstory they decided to tell separately. Frank may have just alluded to that. Brian and Kevin saw it as an opportunity to "practice" writing Dune before they tackled the much more important Dune 7. If you want to learn more about how writing works from draft to product, J. Michael Straczynski (Babylon 5 author) released a book with his original plans for the show, which differ greatly from what actually ended up on the screen.

@Svensk7119

2 жыл бұрын

@@uliwitness Yes. Mine own writings grew in the telling, and often I realized a certain original intention was not logical. In some cases I had to put a story aside long enough that an idea, if only half-written, went nowhere and sparked no memory of where it was supposed to go. And at other times, some ideas refuse to extinguish. I remember pulling little segments out as I could not write them properly, only years later to know I needed them and have them spill, almost unbidden from my pen, yet as if they were mandated. They had been stewing in the mind the whole time, it seemed.

@paulloughlin3732

2 жыл бұрын

Amen to that.

@ArthropodSpidey

Жыл бұрын

There is a shitload of milking, greed, and freeloading off of Frank's hard work. It's disgusting.

The Bene Gesserit needs to create a Kwisatz Haderach in the Herbert bloodline in order to gain Frank Herbert’s memories and wisdom to complete the Dune story.

@matheussanthiago9685

2 ай бұрын

I second this motion May the children of humanity in the far future be blessed with an ending to the Dune Saga But we need to start the Bene Gesserit first

@bradydavis5791

2 ай бұрын

And yet the books tell us that if we created that we'd literally be repeating the mistakes of the past.

@jacobsternig3580

2 ай бұрын

All so he can all "Past, Present, and Possible Futures" his writing was to portray.

@thing_under_the_stairs

2 ай бұрын

@@matheussanthiago9685 I volunteer to begin recruiting! With past training in ballet, kendo, and music (voice included), a work history that includes stints in an early 00's freakshow, some acting, and as a Pro-Dominatrix, and a psych degree with an emphasis on behavioural -conditioning- therapy techniques, I think I'm qualified!

@elphiegleason3899

18 күн бұрын

The so called prequels read like Twilight. Really really shitty writing. When I want plot details I just go to wiki

Long ago there was a Dune fan group in Myspace. A couple of Frank's family were members on the group and would answer threads. None of us had issue with the prequels at first, even though the thinking machines were characters and not tools used to enslave us like Frank stated. Kevin J Anderson admitted that both AI characters were his own creation so there is no possible way that they were suppose to be in Dune 7 at all. I believe the two casting the nets were face dancers with stored memory. When a group of us asked Brian and Kevin to publish the notes they supposedly found in a safety deposit box, it led to a lot of members getting blocked. Admitting now that some of the members went over the top in attacking some of the family members, I still consider these to be fanfic made by Kevin J Anderson. Too much was changed and the spirit was gone. People can like them if they choose but that whole event turned me off from them. I appreciate your honest review too.

@kennethferland5579

2 жыл бұрын

Yea, them having real notes is about as belivable as Joseph Smiths golden tablets.

@z-beeblebrox

2 жыл бұрын

​@@kennethferland5579 I'm sure there were notes. You can't put together a series as complex as Dune without writing lots of notes. And I'm sure in those notes are outlines for future plans. That's just the consequence of having so much of the series done by that point. How closely Kevin Anderson followed those notes (and whether that even matters quality-wise - the outline ain't the story) is all that's up for debate.

@Mixen9408

2 жыл бұрын

I have heard a rumour from diffent places, that Kevin Anderson never study the universes he writes fanfic of. O_O

@LordOfNihil

2 жыл бұрын

i think that they just took too much inspiration from the 1984 dune movie. especially the extended intro from the tv cut. im not sure if that was derived from the dune encyclopedia or not (it was published a year before the movie release). its full if info about the jihad and i dont know where it comes from. the year 6041 (our calendar) being the start of the guild calandar (in our calendar dune would take place in 14,211, i think the dune encyclopedia puts that further out). the chronology of the dune encyclopedia puts us at 14435 bg (using battle of englichanel, aka d-day, as the anchor point), so dune would take place in 24,626 our time. i dont know where 6041 comes from. but it seems the date used in the bh/kja books.

@chouseification

2 жыл бұрын

@@z-beeblebrox sorry, you really need to go back and read the other threads here. Frank had all sorts of character dossiers; but to suggest in any way that he would have had some stupid robot menace in book 7 when Chapterhouse ends with the astonishing advanced face dancer reveal leaves all logic behind. The sad but fundamental reality is that neither Brian nor Kevin was even aware that Frank had ended Chapterhouse with a world famous cliffhanger... read that again. The "notes" story is a complete lie. We've known all along that Frank had character and faction dossiers - but finding some random floppy disk in a safe deposit box... yeah, erm... we call bullshit. Read up more on the "notes" and you will too.

The original Dune books make you think. The expanded books do the thinking for you. They are the thinking machines Herbert warned us about.

@Zykomazika

4 жыл бұрын

This guy gets it

@ChristmasLore

3 жыл бұрын

Very well put.

@valenluca3253

3 жыл бұрын

.

@BVargas78

3 жыл бұрын

@@rv2167 8yr old is a bit harsh but they do read like a fan faction written by a teenager.

@thorntonmellon

3 жыл бұрын

@@rv2167 Now that you've said it, I agree. I didn't expect them to be as well written as Frank's, but Brian's books seem to be written for a teen or pre-teen audience.

i just want The Dune 7 notes to be released, we deserve to know

@matthewsmith1779

4 жыл бұрын

There aren't any notes. Their story on how the found them and what's in them changes so much. One time they say it's just a page or two of an outline, other times it's almost a full novel. There are no notes.

@Ave_Echidna

4 жыл бұрын

@@matthewsmith1779 They're gonna need something when the money from the newest books runs out

@matthewsmith1779

4 жыл бұрын

@@Ave_Echidna They'll just make up a story and say they found more imaginary "notes". Gotta keep that money train going some how. They will never stop writing new Dune books.

@Ellipsis10

4 жыл бұрын

They used notes for the prequels but there was a Dune 7 outline saved on a floppy disk..don’t think Brain Herbert would lie about that

@jasonbarkman

4 жыл бұрын

Why wouldn’t he? How else to give it any kind of legitimacy

Daniel and Marty being Frank and his wife Beverly is so touching to me

I still find it sweet that Frank's son tried to honour him by continuing it. Successful or not.

@Ben-qv7zj

2 жыл бұрын

I think the motivations were more complex.

@alexanderkostadinov8936

2 жыл бұрын

Muneh

@bmoneybby

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ben-qv7zj thinking is problematic

@JesusProtects

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ben-qv7zj seeing an easy flow of money from fans is not very complex.

@alfredoprime5495

2 жыл бұрын

Two authors come to mind that tried to honor their parents' work AND tried very hard to stay true to their vision: Christopher Tolkien and Todd McCaffrey. Brian Herbert tried to hijack his father's vision and put his own weird twist on it in order to make it his own. Kind of sad really.

The best description I heard of the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson books: decent fan fiction.

@erikrungemadsen2081

3 жыл бұрын

They are space opera, were Frank Herberts books are sciense fiction.

@joshmaggard6

3 жыл бұрын

rk6414 Whom ever said that summed it up very neatly.

@ericdeforest5035

2 жыл бұрын

great point,, but who pays top dollar for fan fiction?

@kennethferland5579

2 жыл бұрын

That's far to generous, they are shlock fan fictions.

@charlie-obrien

2 жыл бұрын

OR....not so decent really.

"Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." -Frank Herbert - This is the problem, and it's also exactly what humanity is doing at the moment.

@LoneWolf-wp9dn

3 жыл бұрын

This goes back to the fundamental axiom of society... Society is made up of people

@DaFinkingOrk

3 жыл бұрын

This is FAR more terrifying than AI. Because it's already happening. AI will always be controlled by humans in the same manner as humans are controlled by nature. It is a tool that will permit a few people to have control over the thoughts and feelings of many people (which happens anyway, especially in oppressive dictatorships and theocracy, using AI will just be a more subtle and insidious way of achieving the same thing - a way that will be hard to notice until it's already a big problem that'll incur serious pain upon its reversal. FH's description sounds like addiction on a societal level - if (hopefully *when*) we want to turn back somewhat from an over dependence on computers and just-beginning dependence on "smart" rather than "dumb" software... It will hurt. And perhaps that is for the better. When another large solar CME occurs (like the Carrington event a century ago) that might be the only way to discover and make apparent how dependent we are by then (quite soon, statistically). Much like how it isn't clear how bad an addiction is until you try to stop. ...Or it'll happen and we will just make EMP-hardened backup data centres so we can go on exactly as before and won't be saved by another EMP when we are even further trapped. Dune presents, more than any other work I know of, a vision of great *human* potential - caused by the inability to rely on technology instead. That's very refreshing. Both the complete absence of computers in Dune, and the cliché "mad AI that acts akin to a hyper-intelligent human with all the same flaws as us humans (for some reason)" trope are both unrealistic but that shown in Dune is so refreshingly different and we could go down a route closer to that than what we have been taught to think the future must be like.

@lafemmerowena

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@yoshaosaxofonista

3 жыл бұрын

@@DaFinkingOrk well... we aways can be a monk 🏯

@williamsteveling8321

3 жыл бұрын

​@@DaFinkingOrk You're not wrong. But at the same time I feel like you're missing a few things in there. First, the machines aren't doing ANY thinking for us. They're simply applying lots of logical tests to data. That's NOT the same thing. I work with IT, I see the automation and how it works. We've merely taken the calculator to a higher form of art... So far. Second, our population is too big, resource needs too extreme, to not use automation in a number of places. Third, Dune presents a form of dystopia requiring humanity to go full ham on the worst aspects of feudalism. We're looking at a devolving to that right now, with technocratic "guilds". House Bezos, House Gates, House Zuckerberg, etc., are looking to establish themselves. The end result is the same, and that was something Herbert glossed over a bit. As for the machine empire at the edge of space, I DO think that was where Frank was taking it.

The highest compliment I can pay to you is to say this: Your videos are making me want to read through the Dune saga again!

@EgyptologyLessons

2 жыл бұрын

Because of these videos I’ve started rereading the books again form my vacation on the beach. It’s going to be volleyball and Dune reading all day! 🤩🥰

DUNE has its problems, but the majesty of writing in Frank Herberts books mixed in with the wisdom (I use the fear is the mind killer line to help sooth my anxiety- it works) means they’ll always have a special place in my heart

My dad knew Frank Herbert and cut wood for him. said he was really reclusive but very nice and polite.

@acrovader

4 жыл бұрын

Who? Frank Herbert? Brian Herbert? KJA?

@VisiblyJacked

4 жыл бұрын

@@acrovader Quinn

@acrovader

4 жыл бұрын

That’s what I figured.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

I guess he meant Frank Herbert.

@VisiblyJacked

4 жыл бұрын

@@zannaifacedancer5915 possibly the young Adolf Hitler? Or Salvador Dali

I agree. The expanded Dune is like a light dessert after a substantial meal. I loved the way Duncan Idaho was treated, and the machine Erasmus is a great character.

I really enjoyed all the added books to the series. They got me through a tough time in my life where the only thing i had to look forward to at the time was getting to read them and getting a short break from the despair i was dealing with in my life. I made it through those hard times and i am thankful for the help they provided me with cause i dont know what might have happened with out it.

@hotrodhunk7389

3 ай бұрын

Glad you made it through it

@JBFJBFJBF

2 ай бұрын

I am very happy for you. I hope things are going well for you

I read the ‘House’ books a while after I head read Frank’s books. They immediately struck me as strictly fan fiction by someone who really REALLY liked the Star Wars movies, a space opera in the vein of the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. I resented that all the themes of ecology, religious and messiah skepticism, human potential, and the sweeping sense of history were all gone. I thought they really cheapened the Butlerian Jihad, Spacing Guild, Bene Gesserit, and the feudal society that were so intriguing in Frank Herbert’s books. I appreciate your balanced view of them, but I suppose I fall into the ‘Hate Em’ camp myself.

My "Expanded Dune Books" start and end with the Encyclopedia of Dune

@chrisharmon

4 жыл бұрын

As I said a above I consider The Dune Encyclopedia to be a vital part of the Dune Canon

I once spoke with Kevin J. Anderson during a launching of one of the expanded universe DUNE novels. I asked him if he found it daunting to write for such storied and revered series like DUNE and Star Wars. He took a second and responded more or less with "yes." After a few more general questions, I decided to purchase one of his independent works instead - just to get a sense of what kind of a writer he really was without the heft of an iconic franchise weighing on the work. It was Death Warmed Over, and though I found it enjoyable and well-written, I handed it over to my stepson. He loved it. I think Kevin J. Anderson is probably doing fine work, and if there's a preference for the original works of Frank Herbert, so be it. Kevin's work isn't doing them any harm. I find the "new" novels as mostly a "take it or leave it" proposition. Any kind of outrage beyond simple pleasure or displeasure in this regard I find to be hyperbolic and ridiculous.

@marcusjensen7874

4 жыл бұрын

I agree. The same thing is happening to Star Wars. I don't understand why some people want to spend so much time complaining about something they don't like.

@PhileasLiebmann

4 жыл бұрын

I definitely agree on what you said about Kevin J. Anderson and his works. He is by no means a bad writer. Not a great one either, but definitely not bad. And the Expanded Dune series is by no means badly written (except for the last trilogy, I haven't read that one so I can't speak for it). But the issue is not one of writing quality, it's one of philosophy and morality. Quinn mentioned the noticeable disparity in style and skill, how the complex and interesting ideology of the characters and the book goes missing. That is what people care about, because that's what makes it Dune. And if it doesn't have that philosophy, that idea why call it Dune? Why not just make it their own story with their own world, where they could do whatever they wanted? Because they wanted to use the brand, that's why. They hastily patched together a series they knew Frank wouldn't have wanted, with inferior skill and no clear understanding of what it is the series is trying to convey. That's inconsiderate to the memory of Frank and his works at best, disrespectful and exploitative at worst.

@Dream0Asylum

4 жыл бұрын

@@PhileasLiebmann [But the issue is not one of writing quality, it's one of philosophy and morality.] And no one but Frank Herbert could competently progress those philosophies. I think an important thing to remember is that Brian (and let's be honest, mostly Kevin J. Anderson) aren't keeping Frank from continuing the saga, death is. If there was ever going to be any more DUNE, it was only ever going to be in this fashion. Again, take it or leave it; no harm no foul. [Quinn mentioned the noticeable disparity in style and skill . . .] There was only one Frank Herbert. [That is what people care about, because that's what makes it Dune.] Then those people should reasonably be displeased with the subsequent works. I think that's justifiable given a general change in themes, tone, and narrative execution. [. . . doesn't have that philosophy, that idea why call it Dune?] There are other trappings, besides the philosophy, that define DUNE. Setting alone would be justification enough. Would the acceptance be more-so were it called "Hunters; a DUNE story?" I hardly think so. It is called DUNE because it is set in the DUNE universe and the plots are either consequent or subsequent to the works that established the series. They just aren't more Frank Herbert's DUNE, and that's a valid deal-breaker. [ Why not just make it their own story with their own world] Because Frank left notes. [Because they wanted to use the brand, that's why.] It is Brian's to use. [They hastily patched together a series they knew Frank wouldn't have wanted . . .] No one knows what Frank would or wouldn't want; Frank died and left his intellectual property to his family. It would seem that he wanted his family to continue to profit from this venture. [with inferior skill and no clear understanding of what it is the series is trying to convey.] What the series was trying to convey changed from novel to novel. It had to. By the time of Children of DUNE, the thrust had completely 180'd. We went from "beware messiahs" to "beware human nature" in three novels. As to inferior skill and an inability to recreate Frank's vision; again I say, there was only one Frank Herbert and was there to be more DUNE after his passing, this was always and only going to be the way. Take it or leave it, there is no harm done either way; simply suit yourself.

@AreEia

4 жыл бұрын

@@marcusjensen7874 I dont agree with this at all. Mostly because the creator of SW is still alive and well, and he himself does not like what it has become of SW. And what most people are upset about is the sequels treatment of the OT characters. Under no point has Brian Herberrt/Kevin Anderson written a book were Paul or Leto is retconned into obscurity and creating a documented/public mess where the plots of the first books are essentially turned meaningless. I would say that there is a very large difference between these two works and the issues people have with their "expansions". And if you cant see that, I would suggest looking into the subject matter a bit more.

@marcusjensen7874

4 жыл бұрын

@@AreEia I don't think you are getting my point. My comment is not made as a defense of the new Star Wars stuff either. George Lucas willingly sold Star Wars and let Disney have full control over the direction of everything. Him being unhappy with the product is just too bad. If he cared that much he shouldn't have sold it. Also your comment doesn't change anything I said. Why not just be happy with the George Lucas stuff you have instead of complaining about the direction of a franchise the creator didn't want to work on anymore? If you don't understand the idea of selling a franchise, I would suggest you look a bit more into it. Edit: Using the fact that George Lucas is alive doesn't help your argument. He should have made a better deal or not sold it off. As the original comment said: "I find the "new" novels as mostly a "take it or leave it" proposition. Any kind of outrage beyond simple pleasure or displeasure in this regard I find to be hyperbolic and ridiculous."

You’re killing it with all these Dune videos. I’m glad that I discovered your channel recently. I might read more of these books after all.

I think one of the most interesting things is how Frank Herbert wrote 6 books about the dangers of putting people in a pedestal and worshipping them and idolized. And a huge part of the fanbase does exactly that.

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

3 жыл бұрын

Does taking his warnings seriously count as “worshipping” him or not?

@fernandoerbin6751

3 жыл бұрын

@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 No it doesn't.

@SergyMilitaryRankings

Жыл бұрын

@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 if you use that as an excuse and just think he's amazing and anyone else can't replicate him then yes

@squaeman_2644

Жыл бұрын

@@SergyMilitaryRankings individuals cannot be replicated?

"Claimed to be based on the notes of Frank Herbert". I can understand you wanting to discuss them for completeness, but the Very First Thing that Brian & KJA absolutely HAD to do was toss "The Encyclopedia of Dune", explicitly authorized by Frank Herbert, into the trash can. I would not the difference between an equally famous series and author followed by his son, JRR Tolkein. Note that these "Dune Notes From Frank" are hidden and the open caveat of "and conversations with Frank" by Brian would be claimed to cover any "issues". In contrast, there are many, many volumes of notes from JRR by his son Christopher, openly published and available for the fans.

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

Of course they tossed the Dune Encyclopedia. Its account of the Butlerian Jihad was superior to the garbage that was published as the "Legends" trilogy. The Butlerian Jihad was a war of opposite and competing ideologies, not a war of cartoonish machines and Terminator-style robots.

@esandrs

2 жыл бұрын

Late to the game, but... The Dune Encyclopedia was "approved" by Frank, but he "[held his] own counsel on some of the issues still to be explored as the Chronicles unfold." Just sayin' that "authorized" may be a bit of an over statement for its (excellent) content -- like the Butlerian Jihad entry written by Frederic H. Miller referenced in your other reply.

"Tools can be the most subtle of traps." Dream of the Endless. I didn't mind the first prequel trilogy. (i.e. it was okay, but it wasn't Frank); but they lost me with "Hunters of Dune." I guess I didn't really enjoy all the filling ins of gaps and reveling of everything. Sometimes, not knowing every detail makes for a better story. Of course, YMMV.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah but imo that's not the problem or at least that's not my issue with the sequels, since in the original Dune we know the trap by house Harkonnen. Frank didn't use to surprise the readers. My main issue with the sequels is that retcon, it was too forced for me. Honestly I enjoyed the rest of plots but I thought these novels were written too fast, especially Hunters.

@ranica47

4 жыл бұрын

Nice Sandman reference!

@cjhepburn7406

4 жыл бұрын

Hunters is cool. I wish they had kept the momentum with Sandworms but it all went 2 heck. Imho.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

I liked your comment because I agree with you but just 90/95 percent. Sheeana is still cool!

@Quotheraving

3 жыл бұрын

"I guess I didn't really enjoy all the filling ins of gaps and revealing of everything." For me it was the way it thought that bigger means better (ultraspice, ultimate kwizatz haderach e.t.c.), the huge amount of plot contrivances, the multiple deus ex-machinas, the way characters flattened into two dimensional charicature, the cheezy villains (ominous -> omnious) and the obsessive need to tell rather than show.

I love the original books. They are complex and captivating. I read Hunters of Dune and found it to be what I call a bubblegum book. By that I mean it is not something that gets me thinking but instead just occupies my times with no real thought

Can I just say thank you. I just recently discovered the Dune series because of the 2021 release. But having your videos as companion pieces after I finish the books has been incredible.

Did God Emperor Leto II foresaw the expanded universe and the changes it brought to the universe?

@migukmoonpark4312

4 жыл бұрын

maybe it was "The Great Enemy".

@w0mblemania

4 жыл бұрын

Interesting question. I'd say no, because he himself engineered Siona and her descendants to be invisible to prescience. That implies that those gene bearers were also hidden from Leto II.

@user-tv4oi7lq5v

4 жыл бұрын

Vokasha Kirashiro honest I always Leto II wrote the entire series aka Frank Herbert and was telling the story. He would have finished it a lot better in expanded

@dewiz9596

4 жыл бұрын

Dunno. Will he?😉

@datdaokid

3 жыл бұрын

Of course he did... partially why he spoke in such a poor mood so often lol.

I remember being so taken with the universe Herbert created; I was happy to go back into it with the expanded series. I did not go into it expecting the writing would be as good, and it wasn't; but, I read on.

Hey Quinn! Thank you for for being my guide though the waters...lol of Dune, Im in my mid 30s and have known about Dune most of my life but never got into it.. You and the videos you have made showed me the way around and i truely appreciate these novels now because you gave me the best possible start... now i know about Hyperion too!! You are really great man, much love. thanks again!

I think these expanded books were enjoyable, but they really just feel like a different “thing” from the original FH books. The writing style is different, obviously, but they are enjoyable science fiction books. They aren’t the epic craziness of the originals, but still fun. I don’t regret reading them, but I also don’t really consider them part of the original series.

@nateswan9527

Жыл бұрын

The Butlerian Jihad interests me and seems like it would be really epic. I'm on Messiah so I have a way to go before I entertain the expanded universe.

I read a lot of them, stopping with Dune 7. I was really only interested in what Frank had set up. If money was no object, my true interest is in just Frank's notes, and what he typed up, in hospital, and saved to floppy disks. The legal pads and boxes of stuff. With the writing style of the Brian & Kevin books, I couldn't be sure what was Frank's stuff. Dreamer of Dune was more up my alley. I don't hate the B&K books, I'm disappointed. As a son of a creative father who passed away before completing important work, I didn't mind throwing Brian a bone, but not all the bones. I was most shocked by the Butlerian Jihad backstory. It never occurred to me in the least that Butler was a person's name, and presumed from the context of Dune that it was a revolt against thinking machine SERVANTS that had gained sentience, or something akin to that. Evil brains in jars wired to machines felt out-of-universe to me.

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

You should read the Dune Encyclopedia. It's amazing, and explains so many things about the Butlerian Jihad and its consequences and effects through the millennia that still resonated with the characters of Dune.

@theeffete3396

2 жыл бұрын

The Butlerian Jihad was named after Samuel Butler, author of Erewhon (published in 1872), which touches upon the dangers of an over-machined society. The fact that Erewhon was satirical fiction has always led me to believe that Frank meant for the "Butlerian" Jihad to be somewhat ironic. Readers familiar with Erewhon should feel skeptical of the strictures imposed by the Jihad. This is a thing that Leto somewhat confirms in GEoD.

The expanded Dune books read like they're written for preteens. Sorry, there's just no comparison to the original series.

@wwiiinplastic4712

4 жыл бұрын

Strangely enough, they came out around the same time that Young Adult was catching on as a segment of the retail book market. While most stores tended to shelve Brian's books with his dad's, in my store I had him placed under his own name. Granted they weren't separated by much (not a lot of Herberts between Brian and Frank), but his dad didn't write the damn things. The last time I bothered with reading a series continued by others upon the author's death was L. Sprague de Camp and Poul Anderson's Conan stories (which I don't think even bothered with working from notes left behind by Howard) and those books came out a long time ago.

@kaerbear

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I couldn't stand them. Hard to read when you're constantly rolling your eyes. They were a really cheap imitation. Obviously a huge cash grab.

@carlossantillan559

4 жыл бұрын

As if the rape of Gurney Halleck's sister were appropiate for kids. Go figure.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

No one was trying to compare them.

@AaronDoud

4 жыл бұрын

@@wwiiinplastic4712 should have put them under KJA. He has a certain style and IMO what little Ive read of them shows him. KJA IMO took the notes and wrote the novels. So that are Dune is the same way his Star Wars books are Star Wars. The gatekeeper (in this case Brian) ok'd it and influenced it but it was still KJA.

Having minored in Literature, I truly enjoyed Frank Herbert's vision of Dune. I was truly fascinated by the divergence of technology into human development - the Bene G. control of their own bodies to change chemicals, etc - Bene T. biotechnology and the Mentats - mental data processing. I read the first and second books from BH and KJA, but they just didn't feel the same - didn't read anymore after that.

Just stumbled upon your channel and I really enjoyed your video. I read Dune back in the 80's and always go back to it from time to time. Can't tell you how much I'm waiting for the new Dune movie coming out. Anyway, thanks for an entertaining six minutes and twenty-six seconds. Cheers.

Frank's books were poetry by comparison to the expanded novels. The expanded universe novels are only prose. They are sometimes like hearing a story second hand from a person who did not experience an incident. The ideas are still in there, but they are not expressed with the same attractiveness. In a way, the expanded novels are like when a different writer and artist take over a run of comic books. I haven't been able to enjoy any version of Swamp Thing after Alan Moore left the series. As Quinn says, there are things to enjoy about the expanded universe novels, but it is self-defeating to expect the same spirit as Frank Herbert.

@Swarm509

4 жыл бұрын

This is what I tell people. Expecting another writer to be as good as one of the best we have seen in the 20th century is a tall order. It is easy enough to just ignore the expanded universe books. Also way too many people wishing harm or even death on the expended universe authors.

@emanimal728

4 жыл бұрын

@@Swarm509 I agree. This reminds me of the disappointment some people have in the Star Wars Saga. I think of Star Wars as just the first two movies, Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. Everything else seems to be trying to inflate a leaky balloon as well as crass merchandising. It is better to love the particular Universe than trying to make every single "official" thing fit into the viewer's or reader's hope and expectation. Those wishing harm or death are taking too much personal ownership which no one granted them. We readers are not Frank Herbert himself. We get to have opinions, and those opinions are ours. We do not have creative ownership.

@brianwilkins4438

4 жыл бұрын

Hear, hear brother!

@Another_opinion_

4 жыл бұрын

I put down the first book of Herbert's son a third of the way through. I couldn't shake the feeling of reading some fan fiction. A simplistic and poorly written one too, on that note.

@emanimal728

4 жыл бұрын

@@Another_opinion_ Yes. I got a fan fiction vibe too, although an officially authorized fan fiction.

Seeing the results of the Dune series and Zelazny's Amber series after the original authors' deaths makes me glad that Terry Pratchett requested that his hard drives be destroyed in a shredder.

@silverbane8065

4 жыл бұрын

It was a steam traction engine actually. Massive roller heavyweight steam engine rolled over those poor drives and physically destroyed them. Such ways to make sure data is unreteaveable was better with the disk platter dives I think, because even if you erase the information, someone with patience and the right PC/programs might eventually get the data back. Where as flattened, shattered platinum slivers (that was probably slagged in the nearest furnice as possibly an added requested measure of protection) are much much harder to put back together lol. I felt sorry for the drives, they had faithfully served him for years probably, but understood his reasons.

@merrittanimation7721

4 жыл бұрын

Happy his daughter is fairly cognizant of his wishes as well, considering. To my knowledge she hasn't spoken on any intention to work on the series besides any potential adaptations.

@rolanddeschain5161

4 жыл бұрын

@@merrittanimation7721 She's working on The Watch TV show as a writer and oversees any adaptations of his work but that's all I think. She promised that the books would never continue.

@Rivenburg-xd5yf

4 жыл бұрын

ahhh gads, i didnt know Amber series had been highjacked as well. Dam, i walked into the wrong world AGAIN....

@alanpennie8013

4 жыл бұрын

@@Rivenburg-xd5yf The Amber prequels are no big deal even if some people are not happy that they exist.

You do a great job in these vids Quinn, thanks for your hard work and insights!

I love how passionate you are about this my man, keep up the great work!

Brian Herbert was brought on to add 'credibility' to these books. In reality, it's KJA all the way.

@seanmcgrath3826

4 жыл бұрын

That was pretty obvious to me too, especially after reading his Star Wars EU books

@docgonzobordel

4 жыл бұрын

Yep ! All I ever read from him was shitty imo...

@applecrow8

4 жыл бұрын

Brian wasn't interested in writing Dune books but KJA approached him. Watching interviews with them anytime someone asks how much they will add Brian seems ready to quit and Kevin starts pitching another trilogy.

@seanmcgrath3826

4 жыл бұрын

@@applecrow8 I can believe that

@ehcmier

4 жыл бұрын

Brian did say the he worked with Kevin the way that Frank worked with co-authors like Bill Ransom, where one would write a chapter, hand it over, the other would edit, and write the next chapter, hand the new one back, the first would edit, write the next chapter, all the way through, matching styles. Fritz Leiber and Harry Otto Fischer wrote stories to each other and wrote stories jumping off each other's stories, or finishing books the other started, matching styles. Again, Michael A. Stackpole and Timothy Zahn traded chapters, matching styles, for the story "Interlude at Darkknell" in one of the Star Wars anthology books.

I've only read the two sequel novels because I wanted to know how it all ends. I also have no inclination to read any other books by Brian and Kevin as I found their style of writing to be very flat and poor, even when comparing to other SciFi writers of the time. At times it seemed to me like they ordered Franks notes chronologically, built some mediocre sentences around them and released that as books. All the nuance, intrigue, introspection is gone. I don't expect the same level of writing as by Frank, by this was just awful. They should have released the raw notes, that would have been better and more honest. And some fans would have probably done a better job at writing actual novels out of them.

@jorgespinha

2 жыл бұрын

maybe they should have handed the notes over to Neil Gaiman

@TroySpace

2 жыл бұрын

Dune was written to be spoken aloud. Words were chosen for their sound, and the entire project drew on Man's relationship with Nature, back when environmentalism was just barely coming into exist as an overall concept. His wife also greatly contributed. It was solid science fiction with a strong literary construction, all inspired by wanting to write an article about sand dunes on a beach. It would be very hard for anyone to match, not that I'm defending the sequels/prequels.

@kennethferland5579

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it could have been the equivilent of the Silmarilian.

@z-beeblebrox

2 жыл бұрын

@@kennethferland5579 Or, in a more literal sense, Salmon of Doubt, which was literally just what Douglas Adams had written of his latest book before dying, plus some additional writings.

@Ben-vt8ne

2 жыл бұрын

Can't watch right now, at work. But are the first three books the only ones Frank Herbert wrote?

Having only read the original series (and being old enough to actually remember Mr. Herbert when he was alive) I look forward to your coverage of the extended series .. thanks for your hard work .. will be looking through your channel to get caught up ..

This channel is by far the best Dune analysis Ive ever heard. Its obvious Quinn loves this universe and has put huge amounts of effort into understanding and appreciating this series of books. Truly a useful tool to interpret this dense universe and I await future posts with eager interest. Keep doing what you do Quinn.

The Brian Herbet/KJA books should collectively be known as Cash Grab Of Dune

@metatronblack

4 жыл бұрын

Or be called Who asked for these books of Dune 😂😂😂😂

@MistaMaddog247

4 жыл бұрын

Or Dune For Dummies...

@thegoodwin

4 жыл бұрын

McDune

@Mark-hg5uf

4 жыл бұрын

The number of people attacking the intelligence of people who were OK with the books is hilarious. You didn't write Dune. Just don't read his son's books. I thought you were all nerds, not bullies. So you must be trolls then.

@metatronblack

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-hg5uf nope I'm a villain getting a Mc Dune Burger

Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites, with Chapterhouse being my favorite of the FH books in the series! Looking forward to your guide to Chapterhouse!

@nickmonks9563

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I think the original saga just gets better with each successive book. Chapterhouse is insanely good and insightful.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

I missed the different points of view, too much Bene Gesserit stuff in it. But Heretics is my favorite as well, with Sheeana being my favorite character in the Duneverse!

@lanygrass5671

4 жыл бұрын

Brian Reeder Can we read Chapterhouse and consider it as the final chapter of the saga regardless of BH Dune ? Or should we read them to understand the end of the story ? (Im currently still at Children of dune)

Congrats on finishing your Chapterhouse video... It's amazing that younger readers (than me) are finding value and love Asimov, Herbert and so on... Keep up the good work...

I'm a late-comer to the party with the new version and all, but I must say Quinn that your videos have been a great primer for me this last week since I had my mind blown by DV's masterpiece in my local IMAX. Thanks man!

As someone who has read all of the Dune books over and over, I like the Brian Herbert ones. Not as much as the Frank Herbert novels but they aren't terrible and continue the story.

@sahamal_savu

4 жыл бұрын

@Ezmyrelda Andrade Agreed. I enjoy complex and challenging writing but to act as if that is the only kind of novel I can enjoy? So pretentious.

@aurorauplinks

4 жыл бұрын

They are nice and yes they are a different author, but atleast it's by lineage which in the case of dune is actually amusingly relevant to understanding and a hilarious joke related to the benefits jesserite themes that lead to memories of the past possessing and changing the minds of the present to alter the future... a windmill powered by a butterfly in the past Flap your wings new butterfly, flap your wings and fly into the sky I'm also a fan of the wheel of time, it has a similar authoring story, which is amusing since it's original author Robert jordan wrote a few conan books under a different name As for TV and games I love naruto starwarsstartrekstargate, and warhammer series universe which is rumored to be a dark version of a far off startrek future which is ironic since starwars could be a distant past, stargate the present, well the 2000s, and startrek the2400s with warhammer 40,000 being well... like in the year 40000 or maybe just 4,000... who knows why I brought this up, I guess just incase someone ever was bored and reading my comment and curious about what I was motivated by in terms of interests

@Arigator2

4 жыл бұрын

If you like ALL of the Dune books you have poor taste in literature in my opinion. Dune was a masterpiece. The rest of it was painfully mediocre. Frank Herbert was a very hit and miss author.

@MarcelinoSoliz

3 жыл бұрын

I totally agree.

@MarcelinoSoliz

3 жыл бұрын

Scott Humphreys and you get to judge everyone. Wow. So thrilling.

I've found the Expanded books to be a lot of fun to read despite the lack of Frank Herbert's skill, especially the first trilogy they wrote. There's an energy in them that really can't be denied or ignored. I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone in how I feel about them.

@Swarm509

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed, I quite enjoyed the Butlerian Jihad for what they were. I basically just read them as interesting stand-alone sci-fi books (and yes I know they wouldn't make sense without Dune due to tech/events that happen) that dealt with a big bad AI that was actually quite menacing. If I want Dune I will re-read the original books, if I want more adventure and sci-fi I will read the expanded universe books,

@seanmcgrath3826

4 жыл бұрын

@@Swarm509 That's how I feel too; the Butlerian Jihad was enjoyable, and the 2 that conclude the series were as well, not to mention giving closure to the saga (I just wish they had been written a bit better) the others I haven't read yet

@tgiacin435

4 жыл бұрын

I’m going through all of them in chronological order after starting with the originals, and honestly, I like the books. Yeah the writing is different, but you’re not gonna be able to completely match Herbert’s style. And so far, I haven’t come across anything that conflicting between original books, and the BH KJA books

@ppowerman5000

4 жыл бұрын

Omnius, Erasmus, Serena Butler,Vorian Atreides, Xavier Harkonnen, The Cogitors, The Titans...So much info on those books that I really love. And when I say it, there are legions of haters that come after me for liking them. It's my taste, sorry if I'm not a smartass for not hating them. I appreciate Brian and Kevin's work. Must admit the last book, didn't liked it as much as I thought I would. But I like those books. Ain't Frank's writing style, it's a fact. Please if you didn't like Brian's and Kevin's books, don't come here and show me why u didn't like them I really don't care. I just like them. I won't change my mind because you didn't like em.

@tgiacin435

4 жыл бұрын

Hector Camacho I definitely liked characters like Erasmus, cymeks, and the tleiaxu, just so fucking twisted. Erasmus and his little experiments. Especially when he threw the wee baby Manion off a balcony. And honestly I figured they were gonna bring back all the original characters since they kept bringing back Duncan, and Scytale had all the genetic materials in chapterhouse

This was such a good video. Thank you for this. I've only read the first three books in the Dune series so far, by Frank Herbert, but I've been wondering how the later books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson were in comparison. You really break it down nicely in this video. Btw, love the music, too. It comes together nicely with your words and presentation.

You're just plain impressive, Quinn. It's interesting to think what your'e going to accomplish long term. All your videos are well thought out & well delivered on content that is intimidating to most. Showing off a big brain for sure.

Have you read Frank Herbert’s other books? Many of the are AMAZING. If you haven’t, you should check them out. The Dosadi Experiment, Whipping Star, and The Jesus Incident are all of particular note.

@rogeliogarcia-cavazos3715

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! The Jesus Incident was my introduction to Frank Herbert and my mind was blown! I immediately got Dune and worked through the rest of the series.

@nathanfreeman3217

4 жыл бұрын

CHIGGS 58TH not sure why that’s harder to digest than a teenager who drinks some psychedelics and can see the future, but art is subjective. At least you gave it a shot. :-)

Quinn, you are the man. Thanks for all your hard work and insights

@vojinvmilojkovic7622

4 жыл бұрын

John Flannery aye

I read the Dune books when I was pretty young, around 10 or 11, but until I found your channel I was never the biggest fan. You covered the material in a way that it feels brand new for me now that I'm going back and reading and audio book listening to the series. Thank you!!!!! I would love to see your take on some graphic novels some day, like Prophet or Saga (Image) or Sandman (Vertigo).

Cant' wait for the chapterhouse guide, great job so far - wow!

Sometimes authors of series themselves forget and/or re-interpret the meaning of their earlier writing. For example, if you read the last three novels in Asimov's original Foundation trilogy, you'll notice that the nature and extent of the Second Foundation's mental powers changes significantly, from simple interpretation of behaviour by highly intelligent people to a telepathic power.

@seanseanston

4 жыл бұрын

Yes... one thing I've always noticed in Dune is how pretty much nothing is sacred as the series goes on. i.e. Frank Herbert didn't mind changing very fundamental things about the setting if he felt it suited whatever goal he had in mind for the Dune series. Like it becomes more and more obvious that he was primarily using Dune as a means of getting across personal philosophical/religious concepts than creating a typical sci-fi/fantasy story. I haven't read the BH & KJA books, so maybe they really are terrible, but I can't help wondering what if Frank had died before the release of God Emperor... or Children even, and by pure chance BH & KJA finished the series exactly like Frank did in reality. How many people would be complaining about how much they depart from the earlier series and how surely that wasn't what Frank's vision must have been? Just a thought.

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

@@seanseanston The difference is that Frank was making the changes in his own work, and the books he did that in were thousands of years apart in chronology. It made sense that the people of those later times would see things differently than the people in the first book saw them. The old Imperium was gone by the time of Heretics and Chapterhouse, and the known universe was being run by a weird mix of Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilax, and the Ixians selling to the highest bidder. The Fremen were a cultural oddity of less importance than the worms.

A note: I believe that it's more than "highly-suggested" that Daneil and Marty are Face Dancers. They flat out said it at the end of Chapterhouse: Dune. Here's the convo between them: D: "[Tleilaxu Masters] have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them.” M: “I don’t see why. It’s a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…” D: “It’s personas we take, Marty.” M: “Whatever. The Masters should’ve known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.”

@johnroach13

4 жыл бұрын

Perhaps... but were humans not the masters of machines too? Really it could go either way.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I usually don't like the fanatical hatred towards the expanded books, but that retcon was absolutely nonsensical and forced. Here is the evidence, that final dialogue was an open and shut case. Imo Frank Herbert thought of the Face Dancers as human chameleons, but his son thought of them as biological machines. However I like Khrone. I would have loved to read about him with the originals Daniel and Marty. After that stupid change, their conversations got absolutely boring. And Brian and Anderson needed to create a Face Dancer leader anyway.

@matthewwilliams8978

4 жыл бұрын

@@johnroach13 Not really. The conversation is about Face Dancers and they say "we". There's also Duncan Idaho's scene where he recognizes them as FDs, but says they have no masters other than themselves.

@matthewwilliams8978

4 жыл бұрын

@@zannaifacedancer5915 We are on the very same page. I also thought the way they shoved Norma (aka. Oracle of Time) in there was entirely contrived. She was not mentioned once in the original books (aside from a footnote in the appendices), but now she's the savior of humanity? What the hell was the Golden Path even for when Norma could just wish Omnius away?

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

I seem to reccall that she was actually mentioned in God Emperor by Leto II himself, and I still don't know if there is an entry on her in TDE, but I suppose there is. Imo she appeared as an interesting historical character in the Legends of Dune. To be fair I enjoyed that plot since I wanted to know something about her as the first guild navigator, and liked her story of overcoming. But that appearance in the sequels was just another forced retcon, another nonsense. What then was the purpose of the Golden path, the famine times, the scattering or Kralizec if she could save humanity without any effort? It sounds like Brian, Anderson or both of them were kidding. Honestly, if you just don't want to tell a story, don't do it, as simple as that. And if you want to use artificial intelligence it's okay, but please don't use the same characters of the prequels, it's cheap and shabby.

I dislike Andersen's style, regardless of the franchise he's mangling. It's self-derivative, repetitive, redundant and intelligence-insulting. Each chapter starts with a lengthy "the story so far" vignette, and ends on a supposed cliffhanger before switching over to story line B or C. He regularly reminds the reader about all the details. All of them, as if readers are too stupid to remember details and careful setup on their own;. Characters behave in a very unbelievable fashion; not irrationally, just unlike actual people. It's as if he doesn't believe in subtle foreshadowing, preferring the much more direct and unmistakable 2x4-to-head method. Without all this, each book would be 25-40% shorter, which wouldn't be a bad thing, except to publishers. I imagine that they require a certain marketable quantity of work - as opposed to thoughtful quality - which demands much filler that Andersen readily supplies. And for the record, I felt much the same way about Dan Brown (Da Vinci Code, et. al.). I never need to read either author ever again.

@extracrispyz45

2 жыл бұрын

Anderson is without a doubt the worst writer I have ever encountered. His machine characters are simplistic, derivative and lacking any shred of credibility. I started to read one of his Klikiss books and couldn't get halfway through. Too many plot threads, too much hyperbole and tiny 4 page chapters hopping from one thread to the next. It was ghastly. The Anderson Dune books are a tragic disservice to one of the finest stories in sci-fi.

@kennethferland5579

2 жыл бұрын

@@extracrispyz45 That was actaly my expeience trying to read House Harkeonen, their were 9 independent subplots each of which would get one relevent story beat before cycling around, and half way through the book none were even interacting with each other. It was the most unreadable and dull mess I had evere experienced and one of the few books in my life that I did not finish.

@Virakotxa

2 жыл бұрын

@@kennethferland5579 It's funny that it was the same for me... I can count with the fingers of one hand the books I haven't finished. House Harkonnen is one!

@t.morris5303

2 жыл бұрын

Well said. I agree. Anderson is a hack, nothing more.

@VaderFluffington

2 жыл бұрын

I really tried to like Forest of Stars, another series of his, because it had all the things I should like, but I felt insulted reading it due to all the issues you mentioned. Thankfully there's comicbook adaptation now, so all the fluff should be trimmed.

According to someone on Reddit these were the greatest Dune fanfictions ever written.

Hunters, sandworms and paths are the 3 I read from them, and it was more than enough. Sandworms especially, that is the embodiment of them failing in both writing and understanding Dune.

@timtheskeptic1147

4 жыл бұрын

That Matrix 3 style ending was like a big fuck you.

@cjhepburn7406

4 жыл бұрын

I think their Kralizec? Was a little weak but with tweaking, I think Hunters and Sandworms could make a decent movie. I think a good writer could have fun with Giant Worms on Synchrony.

@hungarianbeast

4 жыл бұрын

@@timtheskeptic1147 The moment that I read that Omnius has a lava fountain, I was only expecting the worst. I tried compiling all the nonsense and things that are just plain stupid, but couldn't finish. Had to stop after like 50 of these.

I think it's a travesty that the expanded Dune universe has more books than the og books.

@silthalis3193

4 жыл бұрын

I see it as an exercise in quality vs quantity.

@mandalorianmoggie6241

4 жыл бұрын

Why MUST fans have answers to everything in a fictional universe ? If an author has left questions unanswered, what is so wrong about that ? Why the need to have all the answers ? 🤫 The question isn't whether the expanded universe is an enjoyable read or not. That is subjective. The question is, why not create your own universes and explore it thru your own process of worldbuilding. Then you can leave a trail of your own unanswered questions that you wouldn't want others to presume they know the answers to. Kirbyverse gets tedious if that's the only universe one wants to hang out in. Learn to draw something else, at least.

@tgiacin435

4 жыл бұрын

Mandalorian Moggie I’m pretty sure it started because there was never a final book where the build ups payed off.

@zannaifacedancer5915

4 жыл бұрын

Wise words. Creating your own Duneverse will always be better. Just use your mind and don't waste your time regretting what Kevin and Brian did. That's a futile exercise.

@Mark-hg5uf

4 жыл бұрын

@@mandalorianmoggie6241 I get that many people feel they don't need them. So why not just ignore those books and let others enjoy them if they chose to?

The prequels like many others just put meat on the bones of the original stories. Much as Asimov Foundation series they vary in quality. They are not as high quality writing but still very good and very informative as to the evolution of the noble houses and nuns mentats robots nobles and history that is the multiverse constructed by Frank Herbert.

@derpynerdy6294

2 жыл бұрын

so far from what i heard, the only good prequels is the silmarillion

@78bezza

2 жыл бұрын

I think people get to hooked up in the change in style and can't appreciate them for what they are

@remurraymd

2 жыл бұрын

@@78bezza Well said at least they do not change the extended universe (canon and non-canon)and batter us over the head with social justice warrior narratives like the Star Wars movies and book "sequels".

This channel is a treat. have a good one, from Geelong Australia.

Brian Herbert has released photos of two 8-inch floppy disks and claims it’s the Bible he and KJA have been working from all these years. We’re talking about roughly a megabyte and a half of capacity between them. If you think there’s enough information on those disks to turn into, what, 6500 pages and counting, then I’ve got a bridge to sell.

@chouseification

4 жыл бұрын

and even if they _did_ exist, the fact that he chose to end Chapterhouse with the Face Dancer reveal rendered everything in them null and void... that's the part the "notes apologists" always forget about... Frank may have changed his mind between those (if they did exist) notes and when he croaked... he had written several books in the interim and when one says one continues the series, one continues where the writer actually went with it, not where they may have considered going during a brainstorming session at one point. Big difference between the two. Let's face it, Kev clearly hadn't ever, or recently read Chapterhouse - if he had, he would have understood the whole evil AI deal wasn't workable at all, on any level. The fact they did go there is very telling about their utter lack of research and preparation... and hence respect for Frank's works.

@rianfelando7496

4 жыл бұрын

Uhhh... 1mb is about 500 pages of text. Plenty of room for notes. I just copied a full dune summary into a text file and it was only 81 kb. If, as I suspect, Herbert's notes were just notes, and not even full outlines, even 1 old school floppy would be sufficient. I hope you didn't pass up on to many good real estate deals because of personal incredulity

@joythought

3 жыл бұрын

@@rianfelando7496 bang on. We have no idea. Sure the fact is that Brian just kept on writing more and some felt forced and based on publisher dates , but I still appreciate the expansion of the Dune universe.

@Quotheraving

3 жыл бұрын

Given how wildly the sequels diverge from Herbert's own plot it really seems unlikely that these floppies had anything more than a few cursory notes.. Probably little more than Idaho becomes a new and more stable form of Kwizatz haderach by virtue of having other memory of millennia of himself. If they had actual substantive notes that they were using as guides they could have published excerpts from them to counter criticism.. the fact that even after all this time they've released zero percent of these additional notes speaks volumes about how true to them they've stayed.

@chouseification

3 жыл бұрын

@@dffndjdjd yes, although you may have missed the importance of that scene. Leto was showing Siona what _would have already come to pass_ if he hadn't started the Golden Path. Those devices were NOT thinking machines, but had been described as more advanced hunter-seekers that went out of control. Completely different concept than some soap opera AIs who (per Frank's own description) never existed in the first place. Kevin asserting the Jihad was human vs AI was sad and pathetic, since Frank had already told us it was nothing of the type at all - it was a war against humans who used technology to control others, and against that technology in general as it was seen as too powerful. There simply WERE NOT AIs running things, therefore there were no AIs to go out into the deep reaches of space to come back later on. None of that happened! :D As to Kevin's AI - holy cow, small children write more compelling material all the time. The really sad part is that there's a single person out there who doesn't get how poorly written these "books" were, especially Hunters and Sandworms.

Thanks for doing an analysis on the overall Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson Dune books I’ve read them all I would love to hear an analysis for each book most importantly for the the jihad books thanks for your work Great job Quinn

The only one I've read this far is house Harkonen and I didn't hate it.

I appreciate your take on Brian Herbert's Dune expanded library, and wish you would redo several of your videos to include the expanded lore (Bene Tleilax, Axolotl Tanks, Bene Gesserits/Sorceress of Rossaak, and the Titans of BH and KJA's Legacy saga). Even if you don't particularly like all the changes I think most people would love to get your take on all the additional lore. Thanks Quinn!

Loving the channel man. I read the Dune books back in high school and I've loved them ever since. There is no other Sci-Fi sequence I've ever read that has such philosophical and literary depth. Iain M Banks comes closest I think. I wanted to like the expanded books but they were very superficial. Good to be back in the Universe but it felt quite flat. Thanks for the content. Much appreciated. Luv and Peace.

I enjoy both series, though I consider Frank Herbert on a whole different level than Brian and Kevin.

I saw the 80's movie as a kid but never got into the books. This channel has me fascinated and am excited to buy and read the saga. Thanks.

Quinn! This is what I was looking for! Was gonna comment to say if you would or have covered the orig story, expanded and order etc etc

I'd love to know how close "Dune 7" was via the outline left behind by Herbert. That could be a book in itself!

@bradyjacobs2348

2 жыл бұрын

Sadly we will not be able to find that out to we can figure out safe time travel

@pacotaco1246

Жыл бұрын

​@@bradyjacobs2348we can rebuild him

I have to say I had to take a serious amount of time to absorb these books, read them and analyze it for myself. And I have to say I found a complete and other enjoyment and Bliss in reading these Back stories and these hidden stories. So full of intrigue, Adventure, love, passion, hate, Despair and Hope. I have to say it is worth the time and effort in a due diligence to read.

I've read most of the Brain Herbert Kevin Anderson book and enjoy them. You ate right they are slightly different then Frank Herbert's books but still a good read. I'm glad I found this channel.

dope channel Quinn!! I was reinvigorated after the trailer

Selim Wormrider is my favorite character off all the books.

Frank Herbert; science fiction: Evolved his ideas over a lifetime. Has something to say. Brian Herbert; space opera: Fanfictioned over a business lunch. Nothing more to say.

@mikereger1186

4 жыл бұрын

M Standenberg - to be fair, compare the pacing and build of the original Dune novel to those which followed it. The first flows (like spice?) but some of the sequels drag badly in places. They get bogged down. Especially God Emperor. The modern novels’ flow is closer to the original Dune than the later novels of the original author...

@HereComesPopoBawa

4 жыл бұрын

@@mikereger1186 God Emperor was IMO the best Dune novel.

@CosmicPhilosopher

3 жыл бұрын

@Jason Baryla I think the last two books would have looked better in hindsight if Frank had been able to finish the 7th book.

Can’t wait for your video on Chapterhouse.

And what an outstanding “Dune Guy” you are! Bravo good sir. Keep up the great work!

I'm imagining that Gravity Falls meme. Dipper is holding a stack of all the Brian Herbert books and saying, "Wow, this is worthless!"

Brian should've gone a different route and made up his own sci-fi stories and not continue where his father left off. Even Stephen King's son does his own thing.

@SweetandFullofGrace

4 жыл бұрын

I mean they could have ended the story from the notes or make 1-2 books about the lore (I am sure he was aware of the world a lot more) but the amount they pushed out with low quality seemed like tv-show/movie bait and just cashing in.

@theSpiritofTamzin

4 жыл бұрын

Should've WENT?

@KFlorent13

4 жыл бұрын

@@theSpiritofTamzin is that wrong ? Genuinely curious.

@theSpiritofTamzin

4 жыл бұрын

@@KFlorent13 To say it correct!y it's "Should have gone"...

@KFlorent13

4 жыл бұрын

@@theSpiritofTamzin Right right. Thanks you.

Hey, Quinn! Love the Dune videos and the respect and knowledge you have for the series. I’m almost done with Frank Herbert’s saga and will soon buy these expanded ones. My question is, how many editions or versions of Hunters and Sandworms are there? Any info on that? Thanks!!

Is this the only video about the expanded universe? Lol.

Award winning actor Tim Curry ..aka Dr frankenfurter.. reads House Harkonnen, House Corrino and House Atreides on audiobook giving them the depth missing from the loss of Frank Herberts deft hand in the story telling, highly recommend, was like finding 3 new originals the way he brings the characters to life

I like the writing of Kevin J Anderson, but my reason toward that is under the umbrella of much lighthearted space opera. Such as his work on the Tales of the Jedi comics, which are specially great in they own franchise. However this is the only reason I forgive them the way how this author duo wielded the legacy of Frank Herbert. Sadly the ending feel like a glorified fan-fiction. But for they defense they can't recreate the style of the original authors, also they builds up the conclusion over multiple novels. Something what David Benioff and D.B. Weiss never even tried!

Love your insight and analysis.

I am just glad we got more dune books, its always good to see dune universe expand

I'm afraid I consider all of the Brian Herbert / Kevin Anderson books as hack work. They're dreadful. I kept the faith as long as I could, but The Butlerian Jihad just was so painful to read. There's more plot holes than even David Eddings had in his later works and the prose is painful to read. They shat all over a masterpiece.

@Viviancanderson

4 жыл бұрын

Agree with you.

@rotcod1771

3 жыл бұрын

As bad as Terry Goodkind or Newcomb? I agree the ending of the mainline Dune wasn't great (most finales suck), I did enjoy the settings in House Atreides; and House Harkonnen did a good job of making them more than 1 dimensional bad guys (which the Baron appears to me when I reread Dune)

@rayfeighery3245

3 жыл бұрын

sean bowman Agree 100% I first read Dune when there were only 2 books and have re-read it literally more than I could keep track of but well over 20 times for sure. The House books were good but not great IMO but they were also their first out of the shoot and I think Brian May have acquiesced styles to Kevin in that first go round...the Legends Trilogy were awesome and truly added to the mythology! FH had already been planning to tell this story and wanted to do-write it with Brian so it makes sense that it would be well fleshed out. Paul of Dune was a great additions as well and probably the closest to the originals IMO.

When I was first reading dune I was really skeptical on the expanded dune novels because of what I had heard. But once I finished chapter house I decided to try expanded dune with hunters and sandworms to form an opinion for myself and came to a conclusion very similar to yours where while I have problems with the way some things are portrayed, mainly the thinking machines, I still found the books themselves to be enjoyable in themselves. Now they are in no way masterpieces like the original 6 dune novels but they are still enjoyable sci fi novels. Probably won’t read anymore for a while though unless I get a hankering to return to the dune universe and instead go onto some the other sci-fi novels I have in my backlog that got no attention because I was occupied with dune

New to the channel man- thanks for the content!

Thanks for review, helpful !! Still not sure that I will read "extended" after your review. But good for general orientation.

Bless the Maker and all His Water. Bless the coming and going of Him, May His passing cleanse the world. May He keep the world for his people. ~ Fremen saying - FRANK HERBERT, Dune

I personally feel the two sets should be viewed differently. FH was all about the philosophy, the underlying message and meaning that permeates the Dune Universe. The BH/KJA books were more about fleshing out the world, the history, the politics and intrigue. The Prelude House books and Paul of Dune specifically are some of my favourite books ever written (the original Dune being top of that list) because for me personally they hit all the right notes in the kind of stories I enjoy. Overall The Dune Saga is, for me at least, the best story ever written, in it's entirety, but I can completely understand the division among the fan base.

@cjhepburn7406

4 жыл бұрын

Again, I missed the philosophy of Dune. They're great books but living in the city, I find it hard to apply the ideas from Dune to my real life. The BG seem like great warriors, I'm not sure I'd wanna be one tho...

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

@@cjhepburn7406 I know someone who takes hiking/biking holidays around the world (one country every year or two). He's been in some scary situations and told us that he's found himself reciting the Litany Against Fear to help himself calm down so he can think his way out of the scary situation. Another life lesson is to "beware of the charismatic leader." No matter how noble or well-intentioned at first, they can always either fail through making a tragic error (ie. Duke Leto, Paul's father), or they can become corrupt (Paul himself, via the Jihad). How that translates to real-life is when you vote for whatever politicians or parties that may be relevant to you. Always keep in mind that the most well-intentioned of them can fail or turn on the people who supported them.

I luv your work my Brotha,never stop being yourself!

I'm on the second book now. This is very helpful for me to decide which ones I want to read.

I read most of them and wanted to like them more than I did. They ruined the origins of the Great Schools and crossed the line from Frank's grounded sci-fi into fantasy-esque stuff with the powers of the Bene Gesserit, sorceresses of Rossak, and the aburdity that is Norma Cenva. They just retconned a lot and/or "powered up" everything else.

@silverbane8065

4 жыл бұрын

The sisterhood was the only real part that annoyed me in the new books to be honest. Especially the fact that a harkonnen not only invented the Voice, but became the main ruling sister. She probably manipulated the breeding program to make sure the last step was the merging of house Atriedes and house harkonnen and added the last step as a supreme screw you to their enemies. But did not recon on the lady Jessica. It makes sense in that way, but as someone who grew up wanting to be a sister, a fremen AND an Atriedes, it left a sour taste in my mouth. Especially as the last book is now had for me to get. I asked in the bookstore (waterstones UK shop) and was told I would have to get it printed, it had become a print on demand item o.0 so I guess I will have to find one 2nd hand and wait for Quinn to get to 'navigators of dune' in his talks here.

@cjhepburn7406

4 жыл бұрын

Norma Cenva sucked big time. If ur gonna have an oracle make her etheral all the time. Not shape shifting though all her previous incarnations. I think that was the final nail in these books coffin.

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

@@silverbane8065 According to the Encyclopedia, the Bene Gesserit was already well-established a long time before the Butlerian Jihad; in fact, Jehane Butler _was_ Bene Gesserit, and the next-to-penultimate step in producing the Kwisatz Haderach. With the medical computer-induced abortion of her fetus (already named Sarah Butler), the Bene Gesserit had to scrap centuries of work over many generations and salvage the program another way. That's what led to the Atreides/Harkonnen match of Alia and Feyd that never happened because Jessica chose to bear a son instead.

@Shan_Dalamani

3 жыл бұрын

@@cjhepburn7406 Norma Fucking Cenva... the Atreides' personal Deus ex Machina who pops by every 10,000 years or so to bail out whatever novel she's in, because KJA is just that incompetent at figuring out any other way to save them after writing himself into a corner.

@silverbane8065

3 жыл бұрын

@@Shan_Dalamani except. There was no jehann butler. Have you not read the forward by frank himself? Where he says that most, if not all, of the encyclopaedia is Fanfiction? But they had worked so hard, he didn't have the heart to say no to it? I love having my encyclopaedia, but it confused me till I actually looked at his foreword. Because Leto speaks about Serena butler herself, having access to her memories. Wouldn't that have been jehann butlers memories, if the encyclopaedia was true? I understand the split, but even tho I read and enjoy both the originals and the new books, maybe I'm just lucky in that I can see them (in my head as it were) as two versions. When in doubt, I default to "what frank wrote himself" as the basics, the encyclopaedia and the Brian books as expanded universe, when the original frank books don't contradict the encyclopaedia, that's fine. Otherwise, its EU. Am I making sense? Edit: Ok so I just looked at my PDF version, I know that ones not exact, it was a freebee, so I think its spellings are off. While the tiny foreword does seem to be different from what I remember, I'm sure that at some point, I read that about the encyclopaedia. Soon as I did things made sense lol. And its not like we are ever going to see all the fabled 'notes' left behind after franks death *sadface. Its a bit like the crushed hard drive of terry pratchett. I understand the need to protect the work, but his notes (both writers notes) would have possibly answered so many questions.

I generally agree with you. I do especially like the Butlarian Jihad trilogy, which I think can stand on its own.

@alanpennie8013

4 жыл бұрын

That does seem a better idea than trying to finish the Dune saga itself.

Oh, I love the old covers at 2:47

You've done a good review. You've got it perfectly right with the comment that FH was a unique writer and not easily followed.

Fan Fiction.

I don’t mind his new prequel trilogy but he should’ve just released franks notes to the ending and let fans argue about what could’ve been for generations.

Oh My friend didn't understand or couldn't follow Chapter House Dune and I was going to send him a link to your video. Now I know why I cannot find it on your channel, it is because you have not made/uploaded/released it yet! Looking forward to seeing it soon so my friend can become unconfused about Chapter House Dune.

Love your podcasts!