It just hit me that Herbert basically used an important rule for scientific writing in his novels: "If your contents are complex already, don't make it hard to read on top of that." There is so much to process in Dune in terms of politics and philosophy that it would end up really confusing if he also coated it in flowery language. Especially the later novels, when the Benne Gesserit characters become really important, it gets so philosophical that it was hard to understand in the first place. So with that in mind, I think he chose the best writing style possible for his books.

@zalseon4746

2 жыл бұрын

I have this exact philosophy in my current book. Fighter Pilot shit is hard enough, future fighter pilot stuff with Space warfare thrown in, and giving realistic technical detail i cannot afford to waste people's attention with dancing around the point language.

@Black_pearl_adrift

2 жыл бұрын

I think he could have done a lot to make it easier to understand, but for me there's some fun in trying to understand what the heck I just read

@icipher6730

2 жыл бұрын

People who really think that every literary piece needs to have flowery language with verbose descriptions and be overly sophisticated in general just for the sake of it are wrong. Herbet's language and his writing style overall fits Dune, its aesthetics and themes perfectly, and it makes me very sad that people which try to criticize Dune's writing can't see those very obvious parallels. Like the great desert of Dune itself, it's arid, dry and devoid of life for the most part, so when dramatic, tense or beautiful scenes arise, it makes them dramatic, tense and beautiful tenfold. Like fremen and their culture, it's terse and pragmatic, but also sharp and precise.

@maculka999

2 жыл бұрын

I did not need a flowery language, but it got really tiresome reading about characters staring at each other, hissing without making s sounds in their speech, etc. It took away from the story. You don't need flower purple prose, just a prose that does not bother you.

@Odinarcade00

2 жыл бұрын

its only hard to understand if you don't philosophize. It's almost like he waited until the later novels...letting the reader get used to philosophizing with the story and then finally you graduate to more and more philosphy.

FH's use of third-person omniscient is also evocative of Paul's abilities to view and predict time later.

@beartankoperator7950

2 жыл бұрын

yes the style of writing certainly fits the world he is creating, similar to the tone that Asimov's style gives in Foundation

@stefanolozardo9711

2 жыл бұрын

@@maxotto9877 I wouldn't call him the villan. I am in book 3, so I THINK the Bene Gesserit are really the cause of this. His path was chosen before he was bourne and he even consider suicide a few times, but he knows its uselles since the bene gesserit have already brainwashed a mytos

@AskALibbieist

2 жыл бұрын

@@stefanolozardo9711 Paul is absolutely the villain of *his own* story. Not the story the reader's consuming. The story Paul is telling himself.

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

Herbert's writing is TERRIBLE. Chapter House Dune in particular is ABYSMAL.

@mattbeard9723

2 жыл бұрын

Damn I didn't think of this while reading but it's so true. I don't think the gradual transition later would be as seamless, or maybe even possible, without this.

Herbert's writing is "transparent". He doesn't let style obscure the unfolding tale.

@dsfs17987

2 жыл бұрын

compare that to Iain Banks - listen for an hour of beautiful sentences and shiny words that describe nearly nothing

@phen0menos

2 жыл бұрын

@@dsfs17987 Absolutely disagree about Banks! How can you read The Player of Games or Use of Weapons and say he described nothing? He's one of the best wordsmiths in the SFF genre in my opinion!

@dsfs17987

2 жыл бұрын

@@phen0menos I didn't read those two, I tried the Hydrogen Sonata and Against Dark Background, the former first, and I was so disappointed by it that gave up on HS not long into it, and your description - wordsmith, is the exact issue I have with his "style", he is love with his wordsmithing craft and not the story telling like Herbert. I want the story, I don't care how her green sweater looked in the setting sun, I want people with personalities doing things, not just looking fabulous, so fabulous, that it took 2 pages to describe....

@phen0menos

2 жыл бұрын

@@dsfs17987 Maybe your issue was starting with the last book in the series? I haven't got to Hydrogen Sonata yet so I don't know how friendly it is to newcomers to the Culture books, but I'd recommend giving The Player of Games a go if you feel like giving the author another chance

@derekhofstetler3998

2 жыл бұрын

In the edition I own, the thoughts are italicized, makes it easier to understand I believe.

Having read Dune at 15, 35 and 60 yrs of age, I am struck by his use of language as “technical poetry” that is precise and succinct yet has a certain lyricism. This is not at all surprising given that he was a technical writer (ecology and culture) and was composing a sweeping epic tale.

@tomplantagenet

8 ай бұрын

It took you 45 years to read Dune?

@peachtime

8 ай бұрын

​@@tomplantagenethe says he read it fully at those 3 ages, not hard to understand

@tomplantagenet

8 ай бұрын

@@peachtime it was a joke

@johnpayne7873

7 ай бұрын

@@tomplantagenet Oh yes, it did! That is not to imply that I got it equally well or even better with successive readings.

@tomplantagenet

7 ай бұрын

@@johnpayne7873 I’m on my 3rd read since 1990 and I do see it different each time

I didn’t realize there were people that questioned Frank Herbert’s writing skill. Reading through the banquet scene, with all the undercurrents remains one of my most memorable. Excellent defense of one of my favorite authors.

@jebidiahnewkedkracker1025

2 жыл бұрын

I personally never questioned his skill as a writer, I always assumed I was just too "dense" or "dull" to appreciate the writing of his works. I clicked this video on because it caught my attention. I tried reading the first Dune book at age 12, and again at around age 15, and I never got past the first 100 or so pages, and I felt bad because I knew people my age who CLAIMED to read the book and they thought it was great, and I couldn't understand what was so "great" about it. I hope I have enough discipline to try it again and succeed.

@robertcombs4406

2 жыл бұрын

@@jebidiahnewkedkracker1025 I don’t know how old you are now, but definitely try to read it again. I read it in my late teens and liked it. Since then, I’ve read it 3 more times and enjoyed the nuances and intricacies of his images. It’s probably my favorite book. The sequels are lesser books, but he got everything right in Dune.

@69Jadran

2 жыл бұрын

I loved that scene too!

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

Herbert's writing is TERRIBLE. Chapter House Dune in particular is ABYSMAL.

@phomjachana

2 жыл бұрын

Some parts of the first 150 pages are admittedly a bit disjointed and you’re left trying to find your footing. But once you get there you find that the setting for what’s about to come has been really thoroughly setup. You know multiple characters their intentions, feelings, motivations, perspectives, background to understand relationship tensions, etc. and then the action hits and you get sucked into awesomeness!

I think the omni perspectives is exactly why I loved Dune. The tension and story as so unique in this idea of know how people perceived each other, you were always just nervously waiting for the shoe to drop. To me that is how I think a space opera should be

@DarkAngelEU

2 жыл бұрын

Personally, that's what I also liked about the SW prequels. You already know the Empire is going to be there, you already know it's Chancellor Palpatine, you know there were Clone Wars, but you're watching it unfold as it comes and there's still plenty of time to explore and enjoy the galaxy of Star Wars.

@undefinedvariable8085

2 жыл бұрын

Nice thing about third-person omniscient; it's really liberating. You aren't restrained to one scope of perspective. This can help when the conflict and narrative needs to move fast, you're not going back to that scene again, so get it all out in the right order. The reader won't be interested in revisiting that scene either once they know the outcome. Third-person limited is great as well, it's a safe bet but can be very restrictive by the nature of it's constraints. This is fine when you're really only focussing on one complex character, and supporting/ancillary characters need to retain an air of mystery. But when you have multiple complex characters all sharing a scene and interfacing, you need to reach for something more responsive. They're both tools, and should be used for the right jobs. Even interchangeably, there's no reason why you couldn't have a short prologue with one character in third-person limited that, say, gets killed off by the end, and subsequent chapters in third-person omniscient that explores multiple significant characters. P.S Hooray for paragraphs, am I right?

@dimwitsixtytwelve

2 жыл бұрын

@Google made me do it technically they aren’t prequel’s as they are episodes 1,2, and 3 respectively 🙃

Herbert’s writing is incredibly clean and allows the story, plot, characters to take center stage. There’s nothing clunky about it.

@barrywhite8747

5 ай бұрын

That's what I've always thought, not all books create a true and clean picture in your mind as your reading. I love books that when I think back it takes me a minute to remember if I read it or watched it on TV, and that only happens with great writers.

@timtation5837

5 ай бұрын

Sci-fi writers have so much complexity to convey about the world they created. In Frank Herbert’s case, it wasn’t just worlds, but also politics, invented religions, and all the foreign buzz words/terminology that goes with it. He was a brilliant writer, and quite eloquent and focused. He gets incredibly complex, profound, and detailed in some of his writings of religions, cultures, and politics… I found myself rereading certain passages over and over, because he was somehow able to pack so much into such a tiny space that it was almost mind boggling how well he delivered it in writing. The man was very good at his craft… Artistry level good.

@barrywhite8747

5 ай бұрын

@@timtation5837 I feel the same and while I'm happy that Dune is considered the best sci-fi novel ever because it deserves it, I think it should be considered among the best novels ever not just sci-fi.

@alb0zfinest

3 ай бұрын

Herbert's writing isn't the problem, the problem is his middle grade philosophy. He would've benefited from a philosophy 101 course if only not to sound so stupid when he says something so utterly basic while pretending it's profound.

@rafavegayoutube

3 ай бұрын

@@alb0zfinest such as…

This is the first time I've heard that Herbert is considered by some to be a "bad writer". This is something of a surprise. I've always thought his work was brilliant.

@professornuke7562

2 жыл бұрын

Same here, hear hear! He says SO MUCH with very few words, and built the world in incredible detail before he even began writing. That's all I have heard since I first became aware of Dune in the early 80's. It's particularly rich, and you need to keep your brain on to get the details, and try to unpick the Herbert version of the Universe and everything that is implied by seemingly casual thoughts of the narrating characters.

@jekw23

8 ай бұрын

Same. I felt his writing was dense and multi layered. I struggled with it. Never though of it as bad in any way just difficult to keep track of what’s really going on. Same problem I have with Gene Wolfe. Reader has to do a lot of work which is not necessarily a bad thing.

@MotoGreciaMarios

8 ай бұрын

If you take a look at "goodreads" you'll see that indeed, there's a lot of griping, especially from female readers, about his writing style.

@randybugger3006

8 ай бұрын

​@@MotoGreciaMarios The gender split makes perfect sense. Men generally appreciate directness. This is why Hemingway is considered a "hypermasculine" author. He goes _straight_ to the point, even to the extent that he omits some details that would help readers understand what's happening. Herbert doesn't omit details (just the opposite, in fact), but he doesn't dress his details up in pretty clothes. Women tend to prefer lots of superfluous details that are unimportant to the ideas being conveyed but paint a pretty picture. It's why the Victorian authors still have a huge fan following among women. I consider Dune to be the second most important book I've ever read because I read it while still very young and it opened my eyes to the fact that everyone has their own agenda, morality is not universal, and regular folks are easy to fool. It's also an epic sci-fi, so obviously a nerdy little boy is going to like it.

@MotoGreciaMarios

8 ай бұрын

@@randybugger3006 100% agreed with the difference that to me it's the first most important book ever. The reason is that beyond what you mentioned Dune also taught me what maturity is (which in a nutshell is "act according to goals instead of impulses") and to appreciate the nuances of human behavior in order to reach deeper conclusions. This latter one has served me greatly in life.

THANK YOU. I'm sick of having to defend Dune's writing style. It has an adjustment period, especially with the head-hopping omni narrator, but I love it. Fantastic analysis!

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

I'll defend the style till I die! Lol, I'm glad you enjoyed. Honestly, Herbert was better than many of his sci-fi contemporaries, I just think critics were primed to attack because Dune sort of elevated sci-fi into the public eye.

@cyrussmith4744

2 жыл бұрын

For what I know, some people don't like it because the style is vey plain. But I don't think that's a bad thing at all, because some people (like me) don't really care about colorful phrases or very long descriptions, we just care about what's going on. The fact that Herbert's writing doesn't accomodate some people's tastes doesn't mean his writing is bad

@drts6955

2 жыл бұрын

I wanted to love Dune but I did not

@Kornknealious

2 жыл бұрын

DITTO! i am baffled as to how people have shit on Herbert's writing. I love that you brought up "it's just the ideas in the story that are important" When people are still talking about a book after you've been dead over 30 years.. I think its more than just the ideas alone in the book that have something to engage people.

@TomFranklinX

2 жыл бұрын

I'm fine with Dune's prose, it's the story I wasn't impressed with. After reading masters of worldbuilding and characterization in the epic fantasy genre Dune feels like an amateur.

There is a scene where the Atreides are hosting a meal at their new home in Arrakeen, with water traders and others in attendance, we see Jessica using her Bene Gesserit powers of observation that appear to be almost psychic/superhuman. Herbert’s ability to provide narration, dialogue and multiple inner monologues of different characters is just amazing, and provides a nuanced and complex view of the situation. The closest I have seen is in various scenes in War and Peace’s handling of various Russian social engagements with multiple levels of politeness and awareness. Herbert is very much in this tradition, and he does it very well indeed.

@GetOverHer3

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, that exact scene came into my mind! That was the scene that made me fall in love with the book, and I could only think to myself "this is impossible to adapt into a movie."

@klaratichakova

2 жыл бұрын

Percisely! That's my most favourite part of the entire Dune saga. I was completely amazed by the complexity of a scene that could have been just another ordinary dinner sequence. Bravo, Herbert, bravo.

@FabulousFlyer

2 жыл бұрын

Yep - this scene is possibly my favourite - the way we move from one persons perspective to another, the different styles of writing for each different persons way of thingking. But added to this, we also get Jessica and Pauls deep interpretation of it all. Beautiful stuff.

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

Herbert's writing is TERRIBLE. Chapter House Dune in particular is ABYSMAL.

@DavidSharpMSc

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottr2279 Wow, what a good POINT. You clearly know a lot about WRITING.

When I hear people say this book was poorly written, it leaves me scratching my head. I adore his writing style. This was one of the first scifi books I ever read, and it’s a masterwork. As is the rest of the series, particularly, for me, God Emperor of Dune. Sure, it’s heady fair. But even as a kid, while I didn’t necessarily grasp the philosophical and political ideas presented, I found the book very clear and easy to follow, and it conjured up detailed images in my mind. Subsequent readings revealed a depth that, quite honestly, I’ve rarely seen approached in other science fiction. Seems pretty successful on all fronts to me. For me, the prose is a huge part of what I enjoy. I appreciate the attempt by his son and KJH to write from within the Duniverse, but the lack of these elements really turns me off. Their books tend to read like a Star Wars novel. They fail to capture any of the depth of plot, idea, and character that Frank Herbert was able to convey. Meh. Honestly, it’s pretty tough to blame them. That’s one hell of a legacy to live up to.

@samwallaceart288

8 ай бұрын

The imagery conjured lives rent-free in my head. Panning shot following the wreckage of some city. Civilians are rounded up on the streets, possessions cascade from the windows; the screams of the victims can barely be heard over the frenetic chants of the jihadists: _Muad'Dib!_ Hard cut to a Fremen warrior in silence, naked from the waist up. He beholds water. Far as the eye can see, from farthest horizon to the top of his knees. He beholds, and is horrified.

His writing is sublime. Frank Herbert is probably my favorite author. Unfortunately he was taken from us before the completion of his masterpiece.

@ursidae97

8 ай бұрын

He's passed?? That's a shame

@drblaze3850

5 ай бұрын

@@ursidae97 Um... in 1986

@ursidae97

5 ай бұрын

@@drblaze3850 see this is why I don't go around calling myself a book nerd

7:23 About that "disdainful nose" phrase-I think it's doing double duty there. Not only it points out Paul's silver spoon character, but more importantly it betrays the Reverend Mother's (and Bene Gesserit's) turbulent feelings about him. The mere fact that that nose exists at all is an affront to them. _Centuries_ of careful work, sacrifices of thousands of Mothers before them, and a whole, long life dedicated to The Cause by Mohiam herself, wasted, just because this one woman, Jessica, goes and "loves" her husband too much. He could be the humblest, meekest boy and it still wouldn't matter, simply by standing alive in front of her with that thin nose of his, Paul can't help but be nothing except a symbol of contempt against their entire order.

@ant0n1o13

2 жыл бұрын

One thing I never understood about this, is why couldn't Jessica have a second child for the BG?

@Wha162

2 жыл бұрын

@@ant0n1o13 all the power was birthed in the firstborn

@bastardacademic

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly - two words gave a wealth of information. FH didn't need paragraphs to relay that information, he treated his readers with a healthy respect that we could see his intent. His limited descriptive style was designed for just this purpose - he treated the reader as a player with all the necessary training to read between the lines like his characters were having to do. Anyone else would have written a book twice or even three times the length of Dune to accomplish what Frank did, purely on description alone.

@Thaibiohazard123

2 жыл бұрын

@@ant0n1o13 She eventually did though. Alia (second born) is female with power as well. But y'know, things got fucked up later on.

@ant0n1o13

2 жыл бұрын

@@Thaibiohazard123 Yes she does have Alia, something like 16 years later. The thing I could never understand is that as a Bene Gesserit she could have chosen to become pregnant with a girl almost immediately after giving birth to Paul.

I did feel like Dune was a difficult book to read through (especially since I’d just finished Mistborn, which I absolutely *blazed* through) but at no point did I think it was due to bad writing. If anything, it’s what you said here: Frank’s writing is so efficient, he conveys so much information in each paragraph, that the sheer volume of information you’re always receiving makes it feel daunting at times. It demands as much attention as a textbook would.

@AcidicDelusion

2 жыл бұрын

Mistborn is YA

@IIIspirit

2 жыл бұрын

I had the same feeling, i love the books for all the concepts and creativity. It got me thinking about politics, philosopy and the human condition much more sophisticated. But it is so packed that it was hard thinking work to not miss 80% of what it has to offer. I know people that say it was an easy read but talking about the book revealed that they only got the Messiah plot and don't much else. Reading Dune is like reading the old Russians, if you don't concentrate and learn with open eyes most of it will go over your head without notice.

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

Herbert's writing is TERRIBLE. Chapter House Dune in particular is ABYSMAL.

@swatisquantum

2 жыл бұрын

This is the feeling I have. Dense and cinematic. Demands full attention. Going through audiobooks and i have to stop and repeat bc there are philosophical gems throughout. He weaves the story and I feel like I’m swimming though it 😂

@NickRamone0

2 жыл бұрын

yes, the descriptions keep the book entirely predictable without any plot twists. Garbage.

Frank Herbert is my favorite author. A single line like "Power attracts the corruptible" can make me ponder it for years. His writing style is terrific. I find reading his Dune Chronicles as natural as can be. I've been reading his work for awhile now, and just started the 6th book once again. Miles Teg, Sheanna, Odrade, Murbella, and of course, Duncan Idaho, are all there to enjoy again and again.

@MelissaThompson432

11 ай бұрын

_"Fear is the mind killer."_

@mecosario9022

10 ай бұрын

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is one that's always been with me

@redryan20000

6 ай бұрын

I will say that "Duncan Idaho" is one of the most bizarre names I've seen in SF

@SuperStella1111

3 ай бұрын

@@redryan20000 utterly memorable!

@RelativelyBest

3 ай бұрын

"Power attracts the corruptible" is a much better way of putting it than "power corrupts." Put another way, power is just very attractive to morally weak people.

Outstanding video. I read Dune so early I never realized that wasn't a "normal" style... it just seemed natural. I don't see how one would have been able to give such depth and involvement otherwise...

When you consider the whole story revolves around a man who can see the future and inside everyone’s mind, 3rd person omniscient makes a lot of sense. Paul has also been groomed to become a Mentat before the story even begins, so he’s powerfully observant. Everyone in these books is highly intelligent, analytical and paranoid. Helps smooth over some of the exposition dumps.

One of the things often said about Herbert's use of third person omniscient (which is also mentioned in this video) is that he "doesn't (or can't) hide anything." Which is completely false. Herbert hides all sorts of things throughout Dune and its sequels. Even within one of the passages in this video he does it: "... hair: The Duke's black-black but with browline of the maternal grandfather who cannot be named..." The Reverend Mother knows *exactly* who the maternal grandfather is, but the passage is rendered with a layer of very sly obfuscation that avoids giving away deeper plot and character background points, by having her remind herself not to let that information slip. At this point the reader has no idea whether she's saying she doesn't know who that grandfather is, or that she can't mention him. By the time that information matters, it's safe to say that any first-time reader has long since forgotten the minutia of this particular passage, and so doesn't remember that they ever had this information deliberately withheld. These sorts of passages abound all over the Dune series. It's really fantastic writing.

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

Herbert's writing is TERRIBLE. Chapter House Dune in particular is ABYSMAL.

@jackkaraquazian

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottr2279 Then prove it.

@charliekelland7564

2 жыл бұрын

very good point :)

@scottr2279

2 жыл бұрын

@@jackkaraquazian read Chapterhouse. It's pure shit from start to finish.

@jackkaraquazian

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottr2279 I have, and it's not, but if that's the depth of your analysis I can see why you might think that.

I remember reading the first chapter and going "Jesus, this is going to be a hard read." And it was for about 25% of the book. Then I got completely absorbed into the story and the book read as easy as could be. I think a big part of what makes it hard to read is the torrent of 'fantasy words' within the first chapter. You have so many very difficult words that are easy to pronounce incorrectly in your mind. Gom Jabbar, Bene Gesserit, etc. I understand most fantasy stories have these style words yet Dune always felt like it was turned up to 11 with the crazy words and pronunciations with more and more being added then never mentioned again, or mentioned chapters later. End of the day Dune is probably one of my favourite novels and the sequel is fantastic as well. I hope to one day continue the series.

@samwallaceart288

8 ай бұрын

I think growing up overseas helped me get into the book on Page 2. A lot of names to juggle, but I was willing to roll with it if I was reasonably confident that each name _had_ to be there and I would learn it soon enough. It's the _deliberateness_ of the unexplained name drops that got me. It wasn't just random bullshit he was making up on the spot, but something crucially important to include that the characters _would_ be considering; and what's more, the lore itself seemed to be something intricate, well-thought-out in terms of realism, and in some way applicable to how things work in reality even if it's cast into an unfamiliar form with a strange name. Once I got that impression, I was in for the long haul. I felt I was in good hands.

@redryan20000

6 ай бұрын

I was the same way for the first few chapters. I put it down for several months, came back to it, and couldn't stop reading. I may have zoned out for a few pages when Paul is deep into the desert (I did the same when Frodo/Sam were wandering through the marshes in LOTR), but basically stayed up until 3am every night reading as much as I could, even finishing the second book right afterwards. Except for a few places the writing is so incredibly easy to read, and the story is really fun and engaging. I can draw some parallels with things like LOTR, War and Peace, or Legends of the Galactic Heroes. Lots of technical world-specific content, and lots of characters. But once you've digested it, you're in for an amazing ride.

@yousefsh7949

4 ай бұрын

It was easier for me to read the first chapter since most of the fantasy words actually derive from Arabic or are actually Arabic words

@YaYousef5

3 ай бұрын

​@@yousefsh7949 Yeah! Like "Kul Wahad" which roughly means "everyone." Nice name btw.

@yousefsh7949

3 ай бұрын

@@YaYousef5 lol I just realized we have the same name nice 😂

I'm surprised this is actually a contentious topic, I always thought his writing was fantastic. As soon as I got home from Dune (2021) I ordered the book online and tore through it as soon as I got it. Such an engaging read. I did put it down a few times as life got in the way and didn't read for a few days or a week, but every time I picked it back up and started reading it again I was instantly sucked back in and thought "damn, why did I stop reading this? Its such good writing." It pulled me in to the world in a way I hadn't felt since I was a child.

My favorite thing about the dune books are the quotable lines that make you think. The litany against fear being the most famous, but all six books are FILLED with profound quotes

@thursoberwick1948

2 жыл бұрын

The litany of fear is a great piece of writing, almost like scripture.

@RevoltOfAges

2 жыл бұрын

So many of the frequently quoted lines feel so “fake deep” though, more often than not it just feels to me like Herbert wanted people to think there was something meaningful going on behind the words when there really wasn’t. Just my two cents though

@daniellaniganohara2456

Жыл бұрын

@@RevoltOfAges you can say that about anything that people call "profound".

@gordonepema722

Жыл бұрын

@@RevoltOfAges It's what authors do.

@abhishekiyer1270

Ай бұрын

"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty" -Chapterhouse:Dune

This is the first i'm hearing of people thinking Dune is poorly written. Madness.

@arnabbarmanray6385

Жыл бұрын

Madness? This IS Arakken!

When I eventually got around to reading Dune, the writing reminded me of Terry Pratchett's Discworld. There's a lot on every page, and there's more than just the ideas, it's also weirdly scattershot. Both authors seem to explore the entirety of their worlds and hint and gesture at it from every angle as they write. Both are deeply engaging if you connect with what the author has chosen as the focus, which is the world and the ideas you can explore in that world. Pratchett's focus was humor and social critique, while Herbert explores philosophy and futurism, but they keep the world and the concepts in center stage at all times. I think Denis Villenueve is a perfect director for an adaptation of Dune. Both of his last 2 films, Arrival and Bladerunner 2049, have wonderful performances and impressive visuals, but central to them, eclipsing the main characters, is the big concept of the films. I trust that the star studded cast will give Dune some exceptional performances, but I am extremely excited to see Villenueve shift focus past all of that to find what he perceives to be the themes of the story. Exciting time to be a fan of the book and of the art of adaptation.

“If only she’d borne us a girl as she was ordered to do!” This not only tells us that Paul’s being male is significant but also give us out first hint of the Missionaria Protectiva and their ongoing breeding plan. Perhaps it even suggests that the gender of a Reverend Mother’s child can be determined by sheer will power and physiological self-control - our first glimpse of the extent of their abilities. Jessica has a male child in direct defiance of orders because she loves Leto so much and a male heir was his wish. Or maybe it just means she should not have continued with the pregnancy knowing the child was male. It’s been a while since I read it.. what do other people think?

@gabrielvincentelli1254

2 жыл бұрын

Many mammals can influence the sex of their offspring. Usually more females are born when ressources are thin. while more males are born during times of plenty. (the process of selection is still unknown) If such biological levers exist in the body it would be safe to assume Jessica can pull on them. Or even more simply, she release a few extra eggs and then select the embrio she is going to keep. Embrio reduction is documented to happen naturally, so Jessica could pull this off too. She could also do it one baby at a time, and not need medical equipment to stop the pregnancy.

@frankdaze2353

2 жыл бұрын

@@gabrielvincentelli1254 Interesting! Well there you go, that one sentence does a whole lotta work I reckon.

@douglasbubbletrousers4763

2 жыл бұрын

I think…that the baby should just choose their own gender. Their baby body, their baby choice

@frankdaze2353

2 жыл бұрын

@@douglasbubbletrousers4763 😂

@dustinodunne3572

2 жыл бұрын

The Bene Gesserit had total control over their own biochemistry. They could neutralize ANY poison. To determine the gender of a child would be a simple thing for them

Fantastic breakdown. It's so easy to say something is good or bad, but to make your point with this level of specificity, well, it's fun to watch.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks david!!

I just picked up Dune a few days ago. I’ve already had to go back a few chapters and reread what I read yesterday. But after watching you explain Herbert’s style, it got me closer to understanding his writing style a bit more. Thank you.

It’s been two years and I still love watching this video. Your take is spot on and it brings me a new appreciation for Herbert’s prose with each viewing.

The uniqueness of Herbert`s writing was evident to me when I listened to the audiobook. The pacing of the prose is like it is on a metronome. The beat is so tight, and it feels like the story is punched out like a drum beat. And no, the rhythm is not monotone, just steady and clear. And as you said, his language is very descriptive and clear; so the flow of relevant information is non-stop. I really advice people to listen to this in an audio book, just to feel the rhythm of the writing. It feels really appropriate to the setting.

Thank you for this! I’m in the midst of my second reading, after many years, and I’m struck by how wonderful his writing is. In the introduction to my edition by his son Brian, it’s stated that Herbert did research for the book for four years, and took another four years to write and rewrite it. Some passages and chapters were written in poetry first (!), and then converted into prose, leaving in place some of the language of the poetry as a backbone. Just incredible stuff.

Brilliant thank you. As a non English major, but a Film major his words on page are amazing. And his over layering and interlacing of this epic story, the writing is as good LOTR. He wrote an amazing universe.

@milo_thatch_incarnate

2 жыл бұрын

As a fellow film major, I’ll bet you’re *freaking out* about the soon to be released Dune movie! 😜 I’ve watched all the released behind the scenes clips etc.; if there was ever a story and setting that deserves real life handcrafted sets and locations instead of CGI, it’s definitely this one. I can hardly wait.

Great video, your analysis really clarified for me, what really was the reason I enjoyed the writing style of Dune so much, when I first read it. I could not put it into proper words until now, I think. Thank you.

I’m very glad I found this channel. I can feel is one of those that leads you to a new interest and opens a door to a whole new universe of channels.

Wait, people think FH isn’t one of the greatest writers of all human history? I’ve never read anything that even compares.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

I know right? Makes me wonder if these people even read the same book i did

@No1emilybrowningfan

3 жыл бұрын

You’ll be surprised what goes on in critics heads. They’ve said the same thing about Tolkien, Dickens, Tolstoy, Stephen King

@throatwobblermangrove8510

3 жыл бұрын

Robert Heinlein beats the hell out of Frank Herbert any day of the week. Almost anything he wrote is better paced, less repetitive and filled with a much broader variety of character personalities. Dune is a good book, and the series is pretty decent (I even enjoy the extended series to a certain degree). The world building overall is really good, although his characters are more limited than pretty much any established author I've read. If you're looking for characters that are serious, depressed, negative, self-absorbed and convinced of their own superiority over every other character they meet, Herbert is your guy. For any other type of personality, you have to read something else. This is not only true of Dune, but his other fiction, like The Dosadi Experiment and the Godmakers. I will admit that he does a good job of portraying geniuses, and Miles Teg, introduced in Heretics of Dune, is my favorite, although his son and Kevin Anderson - who are definitely NOT good at portraying geniuses - turned him into a blithering idiot in Hunters and Sandworms. Aside from Heinlein, there are individual books from many authors that compare favorably with Dune. Just saying "nothing compares" indicates either a limited reading experience or unjustified hyperbole. Gateway, The Mote in God's Eye, Ringworld, and Orion are all comparable science fiction books, all of which spawned series of their own. Varley's Gaia trilogy also stands up there.

@moustachio05

3 жыл бұрын

@@throatwobblermangrove8510 but dune explores something bigger than "commies bad"

@throatwobblermangrove8510

3 жыл бұрын

@@moustachio05 And what example did I give is limited to "commies bad"?

Dune's point-of-view switching makes a lot of sense given that it's about a character who can see the tides of the future, and gets these glimpses about other characters himself, too. We're seeing from Paul's viewpoint even when we don't realise it.

Really nice points! I also love how he manages to bring world building into every sentence without it feeling like an infodump. He gets the characters emotions in very stressful situations across perfectly, while also explaining how these emotions come from each characters position in a totally alien society

My assessment of Dune is that it actually does kind of read like a romance novel, with all the passages of internal monologue and high and campy theatrical dialogue. Eloquence of an epic styled liked a romance novel. I think that juxtaposition is what sells it.

Me: Dune POVs is like an Anime fight scene, where it jumps back and forth Jake: 3rd person omniscient... it’s 3rd person omniscient Me: :3

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

HAHAHAAA honestly, you said it way more concisely. I just like the word O M N I S C I E N T too much

@joeblaster8770

3 жыл бұрын

I think anime takes a lot of influence from Dune.

@tasosalexiadis7748

3 жыл бұрын

Lord of the Rings is 3rd person omniscient too but it doesn't do the head hopping Dune does.

@DarkAngelEU

2 жыл бұрын

@@tasosalexiadis7748 Lord of the Rings is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~y too detailed to stay interesting tho, at least for my taste. I can respect it if others like that kinda stuff in books.

@christianclark347

2 жыл бұрын

@@DarkAngelEU Really? I always thought of Tolkien as being relatively slim on the details. He's pretty spare in his descriptions.

Dune is my favorite Sci-Fi book. I've read it at least five times throughout my life and have gotten something new from it on each reading. As a young person I continued to read his other five novels and slogged through God Emperor of Dune and couldn't complete Chapterhouse: Dune. As an adult I've completed the other five novels at least twice and consider Frank Herbert one of the greatest writers ever. In some respect I think he is also one of the greatest philosophers. Many of his quotes on politics, leadership, humanity and religion are quite enlightening.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

Dune is amazing, and I really look forward to finishing the series (about to start Children of Dune) Herbert's philosophy is complex and interesting. I'm excited to get to God Emperor

I randomly stumbled over your video and probably the furthest aweay from a literature connesour. Being Swedish and listning to Dune audiobooks in english nothing felt strange to me, it all felt really normal and even better then most other books personally. Thank you for explaining why, cause I hadn't thought of that I just love omnissient third person view over other methods. The dialoge between Lady Jessica and Thufir Hawat abour the traitor is so intense just because of it.

I love his books. How he describes the scene in one sentance, where each word is loaded with information and forshadowing.

Re Dune's writing style, it always reminded me of a Shakespearean script, especially the inner monologues as introduction style

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

Very true -- the extended soliloquies, basically talking right to the audience. Gives it a bit of an ancient feel

@balloonsballoon

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. FH wrote some sections as poetry first, then converted it into prose.

@DarkAngelEU

2 жыл бұрын

To be honest, I didn't even know some parts of Shakespeare were only meant to be heard by the audience as to express thought instead of the characters talking to themselves and the other characters on stage just awkwardly staring at them until a few days ago, so maybe that's why some people don't seem to get this style either? It's not conventional and most of the time people would consider that to be something off putting. We're not used to media challenging us anymore as most of it tends to pander to the masses. Just look at the remake where they go really safe with all the black and "emo" looks instead of just daring to be weird. Movies became dull.

@christinemusselman5499

2 жыл бұрын

That's true.

I think the problem with FH's writing style is that it lacks emotion or, more accurately, fails to evoke emotion from the reader. If we take the amount of information given, like you have, as a standard for the quality of writing, then FH is the best writer I've ever read. That's why Dune is so re-readable, there is always more that you didn't catch the first time. But, you could take any criteria and make anyone be the best or worst, amazing or terrible. The reason why most people say to read Dune for the ideas and not for the text, and that FH isn't the best writer, is that for the majority of people his writing just doesn't connect with them. The way of delivering information is too clinical, almost sterile. Reading Dune I felt like I was reading a history book written by a floating mindreading head that followed Paul around. It comes down to the banalest writing advice: show, don't tell. And all FH does is tell. To use the example you gave of Paul meeting the Reverend Mother, FH simply gives us the line "she was feeling her age" or in other words, she is old. Compare that to maybe a third person limited POV from Paul, where he notes, "The woman opposite him was leaning forward in her chair, her wrinkled hands were folded in her lap and she studied him(Paul) with sharp eyes deep-set in a time-worn face." Or something like that. This takes a lot more words, but it creates a much clearer image in our minds. I far more enjoy something like GRRM who seems to be unable to ever get any information across, but damn, whenever I read ASOIAF I just feel like I'm there and I just can't put the book down. In my review, I use the analogy of a flashlight and a candle. I mean which one is better? You can find your way out of a haunted forest with a flashlight much easier, but try having a romantic dinner with three flashlights on the table. And I think that when reading fiction people's expectations tend to lean closer to a romantic dinner.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly that flashlight metaphor made me laugh! You make some really great points -- and I think we far too often try to set a bar for what constitutes "good" and "bad" writing. For many, maybe most, FH's writing will not connect in that visceral way a writer like Martin will. I just think Herbert is intentionally telling the story from that bird's-eye view. He intended the first three books of the series to be one book, initially, and that would further add to the character/reader disconnect he sets up. I think many see Herbert as a "bad" writer because he does so much intentionally that so many new writers do unintentionally (breaking pov's, show don't tell) yet for the story he is telling, it works -- and adds something unique and original to his style. But seriously, thanks for the comment, and really well said.

@yw1971

3 жыл бұрын

On the contrary - he's very Romantic & emotional. Try his 3rd Dune book ('Children of Dune'), one of the best tragic tales of SF (And no, she's not old but bitter - you'll get it when you'll grow old)

@miliczhasthoughts

3 жыл бұрын

@@yw1971 We are talking about the writing style here and not the plot. I haven't read Children of Dune yet, so I can't say anything about it. Except judging by your comment it would seem that you found it very emotionally relatable, but some people didn't? You see my point was only that I shouldn't need to grow old to get something. Isn't that the point of reading, to experience new things that you can't in your life? The plot can be as emotionally charged as you want but if the text doesn't make me experience those emotions unless I have some specific life experiences, than that does not mater.

@yw1971

3 жыл бұрын

@@miliczhasthoughts In my experience the older you get, the more appreciative you become. That's life.

@chesscom6199

2 жыл бұрын

I mean I don't think that make it's writing "bad". It's just different. " Show don't tell" I do think dune does it well and that's not really is the main reason as it's not a iron clad rule and is just a guideline.

I like the points you make in the video, and now I'm thinking i need to read it again to really enjoy the writing style. Constructive criticism: I almost didn't finish the video due to the volume of the background music. I have moderate misophonia and repetitive noises is a trigger. Your storytelling is wonderful, and imo you don't need to add any kind of background music to try and "keep people entertained" or whatever reason content creators use BG music at the same time they're talking. Keep up the good work 👍

This was such a joy to watch! I feel privileged to even have a chance to came across this. Thank you so much!

I always like his effect-cause style of writing. Most of the action scenes start at the end - the atreides men hiding in caves while gurney reflects on their loss, or the harkonnens flat out telling you their plan before Herbert casually drops the motive for said plan 400 pages later.

Love the style of Dune. There are 3-4 chapters that I will go back and read on a whim just because I enjoy them so much

I enjoyed your analysis on Frank Herbert's style. I have read his works and listened to them as audio books and never tire of returning to them again and again. The way language is used, the conversations, it is so masterfully written. He has kept me gripped for over 30 years.

Your point about the effective conveyance of information is absolutely accurate, and I think it may be perhaps one of the prime reasons. Why so many people find this method exhausting after certain limit most human minds can only take so much information in one sitting, and then there is a saturation point. After this point, they're probably retaining a much smaller fraction of information out of all that's been read

According to an interview with Herbert, a lot of the more dramatic writing was borne from his writing a haiku and then later stretching the poem into prose. Which is very clever, I think

A very good analysis. I actually feel like the fact that we're in so many characters' heads; it makes it even more intimate IMO. And, frankly, I've never read any other writer's work in which he or she more deftly moved from one person's POV to another. It happens constantly, but it is never jarring. As far as I'm concerned, Herbert's writing is brilliant.

@RevoltOfAges

2 жыл бұрын

Just thought I would say, I definitely found it VERY jarring and super distracting on my first time reading.

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

2 жыл бұрын

@@RevoltOfAges When did you first read it?

Extremely well spoken, in talking on Frank Herbert’s well written prose. Also, yes, would love to see many videos on this topic of prose, I enjoy your way of thinking. I just found this channel thanks to FANTASY NEWS, when you, yourself ha hosted it. 😅 I’m very glad to have found this channel. 😁

It's what I like about it, and why I reread it. It's very compact and there is a big attention to details. It's not the story, the story if fine, but what I find exceptional is the dialogues, the psychology behind them and how they are all working at two levels. One is the superficial level and the other is the deeper on. Just in that extract, you see the superficial level, like the curtsies, and small talk, but behind them, there is the planning and true intentions of the characters. In this we know that the Reverend mother does not like Paul, because he should not be there, that Jessica disobeyed some order, which then explains why she is nervous, and Paul is unaware of what is happening. It makes the dialogues really subtle and rich in double meanings, and you see how people try to manipulate each others with words. I haven't really seen this really anywhere, except perhaps in Jonathan Nolan's writing. That's also why I don't think it can be put into movies reliably, you simply loose what is the best in it, and all you get is a story. I suppose it could be done, but it would not flow like a usual movie. Some movies will us narration to good effect like this, but it is always one person thinking, not all of them. When they do something similar, is when they will redo the same scene many times over with different perspectives, which usually gives really good scripts but takes forever to pull out.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 💗 I absolutely fell in love with this book for it's writing & every time I fall into reading it again I enjoy it just as much, if not more. 👏

When I first read Frank Herbert I was 12. I remember being blown away by his writing style, I re-read Dune 20 years later, and I recall being blown away again. He uses the omniscient viewpoint because he is creating a myth, a myth intended to reveal truths. Those truths are huge and require that the reader have knowledge of various points of view. That's why the story makes such a huge impression on readers. So much so that the readers sometimes take a dismissive view of the prose that brought them to Herbert's truth. They do not acknowledge the road that brought them to their destination.

@danielmennel4565

2 жыл бұрын

Irulan is the historian telling you the story in at least the first 3 books. She wasn't there for many of the events so her account is mostly second or third hand, and her perspective is bias because she falls in love with her subject.

I enjoyed this deep-dive into how different authors portray POV and what purpose that choice serves in the story. As a writer I often see advice saying that switching POV is jarring for the reader each time, and so it must be carefully considered. Few people have gone into depth in the subject though, so thank you

I was just trying to describe this to a friend in reference to why I find this book challenging, but so rewarding. Thank you for the clarity.

After reading the original trilogy of books consecutively, Dune was so good I felt the next two books were a perceptible dropoff in style. The substance was there but they both seemed forced, rushed and choppy...if that makes any sense...as if Herbert put more time in the first book artistically as a Magnus Opus that can stand alone while the next two were still in a rough draft phase and rushed to please his publishers.

@thursoberwick1948

2 жыл бұрын

I did feel that way. The next books had great ideas but were not so lived in.

@jankoodziej877

9 ай бұрын

I tried reading them again recently and while the first one was easy read, I just couldn't stomach the second one. It starts like a badly done story for children, where bad characters must be so evil in every aspect as not to leave any doubts they are evil.

Thank you! I’ve always been uncomfortable with people saying Herbert is a bad writer but haven’t known how to express this ring true to me. This video is so good informative and insightful. Would love more close reading videos like this!

I've been on my guard for the first minute or so expecting it to be a sketch or a meme. You should do these types of videos again!

Shogun, by James Clavell, is a good example of incredible omniscient writing, with all the details of every character's mind. The action is little, but brings you into the world.

I like the Omniscient perspective jumping. I also like the "tell not show" for many things (I despise the "show don't tell rule".) His writing style makes motives and interactions clear, which worked well to accomplish his goal to clearly show how good or bad certain characters were, without ambiguity (so you could see even a good person with good intentions could make "good" decisions that end up bad for people - no wondering if he had bad intentions or something hidden), and how many plots were at work in the background. I don't think any other writing style would have worked for his story. This is my choice of writing perspective for my personal project, and so is my flaunting of the "show don't tell" rule. Even if it doesn't end up being popular, at least another book(s) will exist that I enjoy reading :)

I really like the efficiency of the writing, in two short paragraphs, you get everything you need to know which is is really commendable. It's the epitome of the phrase "brevity is the soul of wit"

THANKS AND AGREED! I love love the head-hopping omni narrator! That's usually how I would write stories, it's comfortable. I think it's very important to have information control esp in Sci-Fi, it's a whole new world, you need information to world-build, to understand how things work. I am reading Dune at the moment and enjoy it so far!!

I appreciate you dropping the credentials that you are an English major and have a background in the subject. Too often imo people making youtube essays just assume that their platform or the algorithm is all the credentials they need.

Would love to see a similar video to this on Tolkien, always wondered how good his writing actually is.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

That's a great idea - i've been thinking of doing this type of videos for other writers: Sanderson, King, Bradbury. Tolkien would be great because so many disparaged his style just because he wrote fantasy.

@SecretplaceintheGlory

3 жыл бұрын

@@ManCarryingThing it's not Fantasy, its Mythopoetic.

Frank Hebert is theee most original and clear writer ever. So subtle.

@carsonwall2400

2 жыл бұрын

You're kidding, right?

@sadimanesadimane6746

2 жыл бұрын

@@carsonwall2400 hus rhythm is amazing

Seeing this after only watching your more recent stuff had me waiting for a punchline for nine minutes. Still loved it though. I didn't know you went through a video essay phase!

I have been listening to it, and it almost seems to have been written for audiobooks decades before they existed. The inner monologues work wonderfully in the medium, not to mention the recording's incredible cast of voice actors. Hearing the Baron's inner thoughts gives me chills!

I didn't have any preconceptions going into the book for the first time and had no problems with the prose of the book. I had no issues with the multiple viewpoints as the way it was implemented felt pretty natural and always flows well with the scene feeding important information to the reader as it becomes relevant.

He's the best. Hands down. Dune is my favorite book and one of the only book series I've read several times! 💕

When I started the book I was really surprised how easy it is to read. With all the lore's complexity, it is really amazing what Herbert did. I love the book, the style, and I will definitely read it again. For me, such style is much better than over descriptive like describing a shape of a leaf which is falling from the tree on 5 pages ;p I love to use my imagination, and the book tastes much better for me when there are some understatements in it.

As somebody who really struggles with writing prose your rant at the end was beautiful. Having read a lot of amateur writing the line by line stuff really matters a lot more than the macroscopic scope of the story. A lot of young writers have good ideas they just can't convey properly because they haven't sufficiently worked enough on having writing that can make those ideas clear to other people

I read the books when I was 8 or 9. Then I read one of the son’s Dune books, and I couldn’t adjust to that at all. Where Frank’s writing captivated me and eventually made perfect sense, his son’s prose confused me. I never finished the son’s books. But since I was so young, I never truly understood Frank’s books. The way he wrote and shifted between POVs made sense to me, but the events and the motivations themselves were beyond my frame of reference at the time. So while I enjoyed Frank’s Dune books, I remember only images from the SyFy series, and the emotions on Frank’s pages.

As a french reader (so i don't have the "real" DUne) i think that being cryptic sometimes help. Sometimes (in the sequels mainly), the semi-comprehension created an interesting feeling

@ChristmasLore

2 жыл бұрын

I'm french too: read in English. Everything, avoid translations. You'll get better at it in no time. I haven't read anything in french for over 15 years now.

Really like how kind of simple it is starting reading it rn considering all the terminology he also straight-up created and I'm taking notes.

Really enjoying the book and thank you for making this video mate, very helpful in appreciating it even more

I love this book dearly. The only flaws I have with it are the rushed ending. I think it would have worked better if it ended with Paul taking over Arrakis from Rabban, and it could be a trilogy of Paul trying to get revenge on the Baron. The Baron's death at the hands of Alia as apposed to the one whose entire life he destroyed feels like an obvious flaw.

@lieshtmeiser5542

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting, Ive never heard anyone make that criticism before.

you're spot on. My only 'issue' with the style is not his talents as a writer or omni-view, but the creative choice to write book 1 as if it were book 3 or 4. Many terms are thrown around without any introduction and for someone with a poor working memory like me, pushing through was hard going, never quite 100% if he was referencing something new, or something I should know already. It made me feel like a bit of an idiot i guess. Maybe it's my OCD in the way too? Anyway i loved the actual world-building and plot. I'm sure it highly rewards a second reading which i may do.

That’s wild, I’ve never heard criticism of his writing but I recently started reading Dune and frankly was impressed by his brevity and ability to pack a lot of value into few words. And I say that as an Eng major and someone who reads a lot of literary fiction… but something I’ve noticed is that with many readers who are consumers and not writers generally equate unusual or different with “bad” so i guess I’m not terribly surprised.

Loved this video. First saw it while reading Dune for the first time, and it really helped me understand what the author was doing with his writing style. As you say, it can be a bit discombobulating at first, to be jumping from character to character, but once you get used to it it becomes impossible to imagine the story told any other way.

One other aspect of his writing shown in the examples is how he slips in so much exposition without going info dump for the most part. Although his critics would likely disagree.

My favorite one is Dune's Messiah, brilliant, and yes, there is nothing wrong with his prose. I think editing becomes a problem later on, the order of scenes could have been more effective in Children of Dune, for example SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER: The way he tells you straight away that Alia is possessed, had he ignored her POV completely, and just showed us the signs, the reveal would have had way more impact. But these things are very understandable. I feel that, as his health declined, and his wife's health declined, it got tougher for him to work as patiently as he would have liked. Not all of us can be Tolkien, editing a single piece for 10 years with a tenure and a circle of Professors as beta readers...

@keshav3479

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't read your entire comment but I just REALLY appreciate how you said spoiler like 8 times before continuing. My eyes saw half the sentence before my brain processed it.

I’ve restarted Dune several times just because I would procrastinate then just restart to get the context again. However, I think those restarts actually kind of helped me click with the style more! Now I’m half way through this time and can’t put it down. I love this story!!! Thanks for this video!

I always really liked how they foreshadowed much of the first story with Paul’s thoughts. But the book still kept you guessing and wanting more as to what is next.

I dunno, I always loved his writing style

I love his writing style. I love the fact that it's so straightforward but it still just flows(?) - if this makes any sense. A lot of other books and series try to appear smart and complex with their writing styles and they just tend to bore me. I don't really care about descriptions of secondary or tertiary characters or the curtains in a room they are in (looking at you Wheel of Time). Not that description and a luscious prose is a bad thing but sometimes it cant get overboard if you ask me.

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, the straightforward quality is really nice, especially when the world is as intensely weird as Arrakis. And this is coming from someone who loves Faulkner, lol - I really appreciate the other end of the spectrum

I had no idea what was going on for the first one hundred pages, yet the descriptions were so intriguing that I couldn't put it down until it all came together. Turned out amazing.

Thank you for your analysis of Dunes Herbert "s writing style...I am a writer or I hope to grow in my writting skills. Thankyou again

I’m OBSESSED WITH YOUR EDITING! Also I love the writing! I’m halfway through and I love his ability to use vagueness as a suspense tactic. Also I LOVE Jessica (halfway through).

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

XD thank you!! I'm happy you're enjoying the style! Jessica is SUCH an interesting character, especially considering the Bene Gesserit.

If you are fast reader you don't appreciate Dune and don't fully comprehend the nuance. Frank Herbert conveys so much with so little, it's beautiful. But if you are fast reader like many book reviewers on the internet and people who read and review books for a living, then this book doesn't sit well. It doesn't sit well because it doesn't have the pacing that they want. For faster readers it comes off as clunky with weak pros but for slower readers it comes off as very poetic and expressive. That's why the elite reader class always shoves it to the side and on the other hand is adored by the slower reader common man. I'm no English major.

Fantastic analysis, the initial dune novel was something special. The subsequent books were decent enough but I've always come back to dune. Frank Herbert had such a vision crafting this book and I love how you took just a small part of the first chapter to show it's genius. Can't wait to dig into the past and future videos

@legrandliseurtri7495

2 жыл бұрын

It's been a while but I remember liking some of the sequels more. Maybe because I actually started to understand who everyone was lol.

Agreed... It's why I love these books so much. We jump from one point of view to another from paragraph to paragraph. Yet these jumps of perspective do everything to serve the story. This is the genius of Herbert and why, in the summer of 1966, I fell in love with this story. It grabbed my attention because it wasn't predictable in form. In 2021 we're used to processing terabytes of information, we weren't in the late 60s. This was the first time, for me, that I dealt with big data on several levels. I think Herbert did a masterful job of creating a universe and layers upon layers of how humans would possibly deal with it, and still successfully tell a classic timeless tale of human virtue, struggle, and many questionable conclusions along the way. I love his micro/macro insights. I agree with you that too much descriptive language would clutter the story. He's bare bones most of the time, yet can go off on very descriptive tangents. It resonated with me at 16 and all my rereads over the years since.

ok now im considering reading dune (plz do more videos like this so u can convince me to read more books i had no intention reading)

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

I WILL! Omg i'm so glad, I am officially peer pressuring you into reading it starting NOW

@ChristmasLore

2 жыл бұрын

@@ManCarryingThing , I can't seem to push myself into beginning WOT, tried The eye of the world a few times, but it failed each time to hook me down? Yet the community seems so wholesome, I like hanging out at the Dusty Wheel..

Well addressed. A lot lot of these kinds of comments about writers’ seem to boil down to genre snobbery. SF genre must deliver a lot of world building information, just as romance focuses on subjective emotion, therefore the criticism that writing is ‘sub par’ shows a kind of genre-illiteracy.Herbert’s use of free indirect discourse as he positions readers to see the various pov’s and thoughts of the array of characters is particularly noteworthy. Keep the videos coming!

@ManCarryingThing

3 жыл бұрын

You are absolutely correct, and thanks!So much snobbery around SFF. It's better now, but I imagine it was especially bad in the 60s.

more videos on writing!!!!! made me want to pick up the books for sure

I remember reading Dune in high school and being floored by the amount of cultural subtleties worked into a single gesture or conversation. The social obligations, the economic, political, and ecological issues intertwined, the individual motives informing characters at odds with one another, it felt like such a wholistic and fully "accounted for" world in a really unique way

You're like a whole different person in these older videos lmao

I think a lot of people's problem with Dune was that it had a large amount of information compacted into simple words with heavy sub context. A lot of the information in Dune has to be inferred, and that which doesn't is buried under several other layers of information. In his example paragraph, we learn about the Bene Gesserit, Jessica's pregnancy, the guild, and duke Leto in one paragraph. It's a lot to take in.

MORE PLEASE!! Watched Dune ( David Lynch ) as a child in the 80s.. read the books starting in high-school. LOVE THEM! Not a fan of the previous 2 Dune reboots but this current Dune movie looks FANTASTIC.

You took under ten minutes to bring across a point which other people couldn't in twice the time. Very impressive. Came for sketches, subbed for such concise essays.