Windows on ARM will always be a big deal to me in my life, I was part of the original project getting the Windows kernel working on ARM a decade ago. Even back then I saw it as an enormous task to get it right and it never materialized. then was marketed badly and being locked to specific hardware killed it. It still makes me sad that one of the largest projects I ever worked on just still doesnt work even a decade later.

@vaisakhkm783

Жыл бұрын

😕 sad to hear mate this is why most people (who knows) like open source softwares.. at least no one would kill our hard work

@logaandm

Жыл бұрын

I really like my Surface Pro X. I seem to in the minority but it works great for me. OTOH I am a normal person. I don't game on the bus and I don't make KZread videos. It really is the tablet that turns into a computer. My only real complaint is that the power button is on the side. When I put the Surface Pro X in Portrait mode for reading it often accidently switches off. So, thanks for your work. At least there is one consumer out there who appreciates it.

@UnifiedInfo

Жыл бұрын

I stripped an old surface pro 3 to bare os and compiled what was needed. It runs world of warcraft like a champ and I even manage running some games with half the required ram👌

@davidboreham

Жыл бұрын

@@logaandm I'm a software engineer and I wouldn't give up my Surface Pro X. You do need to (at present) run the insiders builds for a good experience, to get 64-bit x86 emulation.

@logaandm

Жыл бұрын

​@@davidboreham I run 64Bit programs without issue and I am not on the Insider program. I think Windows 11 ARM has had full 64bit support about a year. The only problems I've had is with USB devices without ARM drivers.

3:48 that's bedrock, not java. The bedrock, formerly known as pocket edition, is designed with mobile processors in mind.

@emifro

Жыл бұрын

Bedrock is also made in C++, not Java

@GradyGalbraith

Жыл бұрын

I can’t tell exactly what he’s playing on screen, but there is an ARM build of Java Minecraft. Java has native arm support, and Minecraft was updated with a native arm build too, mainly for M1 but also a tucked away version for ARM Windows.

@patrpatl

Жыл бұрын

"Is designed for mobile processors in mind." -past

@modcolocko

Жыл бұрын

@@GradyGalbraith You can tell its Minecraft Bedrock because of the app icon, hud position (Its a few pixels up on the bedrock edition), and overall "lighter" appearance. I've played to much minecraft

@archivushka

Жыл бұрын

@@GradyGalbraith A: every version past better together update with support of the better together (bedrock) Must be called Minecraft, While java edition has the java edition app prefix, and shows the activity you're doing (e.g. Minecraft 1.16.2 Singleplayer. B: The first person hand is behaving slightly different than on java, mainly wiggles with more kinetic energy. C: A downloadable demo is always included on start tiles with windows that has Microsoft store enabled.

Apple already said that they would be open to the idea of native Windows (BootCamp) on Apple Silicon, Microsoft just needs to allow it, i'm hoping they do that as soon as their exclusivity deal with Qualcomm runs out.

@alyx6427

Жыл бұрын

people have tried with emulation stuff and it's actually way faster emulated windows on ARM on an M1 MacBook than the best surface pro X

@slashtiger1

Жыл бұрын

I would absolutely love it if this Microsoft/Qualcomm crap's end _did_ lead to Microsoft allowing Windows to run on Apple Silicon. Apple has left Boot Camp in the M1 versions of MacOS for a reason, and that is to allow users to use Windows natively, if Microsoft ever were to allow it. I sure as hell hope they will, and the sooner the better!

@zicadibrove4119

Жыл бұрын

I disagree. Apple provided Bootcamp for intel, its not down to Microsoft. Its up to Apple to provide APIs as Microsoft, intel, AMD, Nvidia etc does. Then All OS could use the APis rather than having to reverse engineer. Apple wont disclose 3D APIs, thats why Asahi Linux and Windows cant use accelerated graphics hardware on M series. Its just hogwash and shows Apple locking down its eco system. Thats all the M series are about.

@rodrovelasquez1634

Жыл бұрын

I hope this inclines people to use linux more since wine has gotten so much better

@slashtiger1

Жыл бұрын

@@rodrovelasquez1634 Wine has indeed gotten much, much better over the years. But, unfortunately, it's nowhere near possible to run everything through Wine just yet. Especially as of late, with the Steam Deck being so popular, development of Wine seems to have been focussed around the performance of games and related software. Which is logical, seeing as that is exactly what brought about the exponential rise in usage of Linux across the board in the past few years. But what this does mean is that, at least in my view, less attention is being put toward getting (new versions of) productivity software to work (fully) on Wine. For myself, this means that, even if I would like to, it's very much impossible to switch to Linux, because the software that is most important for me to do my job just does not run. It hasn't been on the "supported" list in any iteration, so it was always hit and miss, but the last couple of versions simply don't run at all, whatever I try to get one of them working. Should you want to peruse the various knowledge bases for a solution yourself, then please go ahed. The software in question is called MemoQ. That being said, this is not the only program that doesn't run properly, unfortunately, so for me, it's as of yet unfeasible to switch fully to Linux (i.e. without relying on virtualisation, which is what I'm also doing now I'm daily-driving a Mac, for which all of the above is also 100% true).

I spoke with Qualcomm about this exclusivity deal - they said there isn't one. Simply put, they put engineers, $$$, and time with Microsoft to optimizing Windows on Arm for Qualcomm. Anyone else would have to do their own specific optimizations and work with Microsoft to do that, but no-one has. In terms of 64-bit translation, I was told by the guy in charge they said that instruction translation was easy enough, but more than half of the issues are due to bad software installing wrong drivers, referencing old/badly linked DLLs, and they've had to spend most of the time simply getting it to work first, before focusing on performance. Because the key market for QC for these devices is going to be premium commercial devices (Thinkpads), they're essentially using the 8cx family as the base line and everything else is entry - realistically it's the Nuvia core next year that's meant to bring the performance to the high-end. If you want, I could get you in contact with the team over there and they may be happy to answer your questions.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

In that case, I wonder why Microsoft is dragging their feet on getting Windows working more easily on M1/M2. Qualcomm still seems to be in perfect position to make a dent, it's just that they've been behind on the performance for so long, I don't think many people have faith they'll catch up :(

@walkinmn

Жыл бұрын

So instead of trying to optimize Windows for the arm architecture in general they only worked with Qualcomm? that's disappointing, I get that these things need big budgets and maybe long roadmaps (and optimizing for proprietary components) but I feel Microsoft went backwards about this and I presume it was because Qualcomm was the one bringing the interest and resources. And I never got the concept of trying to make Windows arm machines as a "premium" device only (or first), since they can do way less than x86 based machines (at least right now), the only "pro" feature for a consumer in this category is the battery life. If they had went for the Chromebook category instead then I believe everyone would have been more forgiving about its perks and there would be way more interest in it, but yes, the prices of the Qualcomm chips don't match that price range I guess... I really want Windows on arm to succeed, but I don't see how this is going to happen hearing about all of this.

@xerzy

Жыл бұрын

@@walkinmn The thing is that, once you have x86_64 translation going on, as processors like the M1/M2 prove, it *is* on par. There's no question in that regard, and you can live on that future _today_ if you're a macOS or a Linux user. It really is just Windows and ARM manufacturers dragging the industry at this point.

@janhofmann3499

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling Apple is only little interested in getting Win on Arm running properly on AS. The main culprit i think is the GPU driver. Apple knows it’s hardware the best but would have to put a lot of resources on it. And if MS was willing to write a driver, Apple would have to provide extensive documentation about their GPU and i’m sure they’re not willing to do so. And last but not least: Apple is able to "force" developers to transition to a new architecture whereas MS is - a bit like intel - totally addicted to legacy stuff. Getting your OS to run properly is one thing but, if most apps run under emulation, there is little gain in running it on Arm.

@hoagy_ytfc

Жыл бұрын

@@janhofmann3499 Apple put a lot of effort into supporting BootCamp on Intel Macs, as it was necessary for getting a lot of people to migrate from Win to Mac. The same would surely apply to Arm, I think Apple would jump at the chance to get BootCamp running on Apple Silicon macs.

Lack of standardized bootloader processes on ARM is a major roadblock to standardizing OS adoption on the platform, thus forcing a large amount of work to building OS images for each specific SOC and board that's produced. The only benefit is to the SOC manufacturers, as they now have to be involved (and thus extra $$ for them) for any serious effort to support an OS on a given device.

@vinnytube1001

Жыл бұрын

There is a thing called SystemReady (formerly ServerReady) for ARM that solves all that. It's used in the server space currently, but the rebranding from ServerReady to SystemReady was in anticipation of desktops and laptops. Anyway, it does exactly what you want. Device enumeration is done with PCIe (no more custom device trees per board), power is ACPI (standard), and boot is UEFI. There's more than that but that's the big stuff. It's basically "PC as you know it" but with ARM chips.

@Daniel_VolumeDown

Жыл бұрын

@@vinnytube1001 Why is this not widely used? Or maybe it is but I don't know about it?

@autohmae

Жыл бұрын

@@Daniel_VolumeDown Looks like it's from last year or the year before, so it's gonna take time for manufacturers to adopt it.

@kwinzman

Жыл бұрын

I couldn't agree more. I refuse to buy any ARM SBC that need a forked Kernel to work correctly. I just can't trust the board vendors to maintain that. The track record is abysmal. Unfortunately that's almost every ARM board I have ever seen except for the Raspberry wich mostly works with mainline now.

@Maximara

Жыл бұрын

If that was true than Windows on ARM would run like crap on an M1 especially as it is going though virtualization but instead it runs nearly 2x as fast.

2:14 PowerShell has always been unreasonably slow to give a prompt, even on my Ryzen 9 5950X. I don't know what they are doing to make it that slow but this isn't unique to Windows on ARM.

@edwardallenthree

Жыл бұрын

Isn't it odd that it is faster to launch a terminal by launching vscode than the command prompt?

@vcprocles

Жыл бұрын

PowerShell may be kind of slow because this is a .NET app and the runtime needs some extra time to initialize. New cross-platform PS is a bit faster, thankfully

@Undercoverfire

Жыл бұрын

@@edwardallenthree Especially since vscode is an Electron app, which means that its command prompt is built on top of a web browser and Javascript (which in this case is transpiled from Typescript)

@zoovy7252

Жыл бұрын

have you updated it to powershell v7 ? prompt loads instantaneously. Btw i have a R5 4600H

@CoPoint

Жыл бұрын

@@vcprocles Shouldn't, by this time, half the OS be running on .Net anyway? In other words, the runtime already be well and truly running before you even log in? (Serious question here - if you hear MS, it's been the be-all and end-all for, what, 10 years or more, now?)

The chips are slowly but surely improving, this is a 7C which is the slowest available chip, The SQ1 / 2 in the Surface Pro X is equivalent to a laptop 8th Gen I5 (Qualcomm 8CX/8CX Gen 2 are more or less equivalent in performance). The 8CX Gen 3 is even faster but these are sold in quite expensive devices. The main problem with these chips is (IMO) : - The devices they are sold with are too expensive (it was like 1400$+ for the SPX) - Chicken and egg : The devs wont port their apps since nobody has those devices, nobody wants to buy these devices since there's not apps.

@ilfirinms

Жыл бұрын

Yeah and experience show, chicken and egg can be crushed only with huuuuuge investment. Apple goes all in to arm. Valve develops Steam/Proton/Linux for years with absolutely no profit till, well, they still I assume. For Microsoft, Arm is a toy, some Windows 10 versions are there, some 11 nowadays too... they are just somehow ready to join revolution, if it somehow happened, not promoting it itself at all.

@cromulence

Жыл бұрын

The M1 crushes all Qualcomm chips, even when Windows is running via QEMU on ARM.

@zoovy7252

Жыл бұрын

@@cromulence thanks we didn't know that

@cromulence

Жыл бұрын

@@zoovy7252 You're welcome anime man.

Жыл бұрын

@@ilfirinms or if MS would've pushed real UWP apps on the store since the RT days, we might have more apps with arm support. Also apple did it better imo with the release of a development kit.

Apple's Rosetta emulation layer on M1 and M2 processors runs so well partly because of a hardware trick in a Apple-specific extension to ARM v8.5-A. That's not saying that future ARM processors for Windows PCs wouldn't be able to implement something similar.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

Exactly-you'd think with an exclusive relationship, Microsoft would be able to strong-arm Qualcomm into adding a little to their silicon. But it seems more like Qualcomm does the minimum possible work to get their mobile chips working for Windows.

@FindecanorNotGmail

Жыл бұрын

Technical follow-up for those who are interested: It is about memory ordering. This affects multi-threaded apps on multi-core processors. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_ordering#Runtime_memory_ordering x86 has Total Store Order (TSO). ARM has "Relaxed" (or "Weak") memory Ordering (RMO/WMO) by default. Apple's trick is to put the CPU into TSO mode when running Rosetta-translated code and RMO otherwise. The alternative to having a special mode like this is to insert memory-barrier instructions into the translated machine code - but those make the code larger and incur a performance penalty (if only just because they are instructions). I don't think Apple has patented they trick, because they likely couldn't. There is prior art for SPARC and even for RISC-V.

@bigpod

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling does qualcomm even have proper license to add extras to arm as i see them only use ARM cortex and such cores made by arm itself

@electronics-girl

Жыл бұрын

@@FindecanorNotGmail In that case, it seems like for the majority of apps (ones that aren't doing massively parallel rendering or encoding), they'd be better off just locking the process to a single core, and not have to insert the memory barriers.

@RK-um9tu

Жыл бұрын

Guess what Apple's laptop and desktop global market share are still 8% post-M1 chip. Why? Because chip sets DO NOT matter which is why small businesses, corporations, educational institutions, nonprofits, and ngos across the entire planet keep their computing devices for 5 to 7 years.

YES! It's like overclocking but just running at normal clock speeds with a giant fan😎

@jmr

Жыл бұрын

Seems to me like they overclocked it for you.

@heavy0119

Жыл бұрын

@@jmr how are you verified???

@jmr

Жыл бұрын

@@heavy0119 I made a tutorial just for you because I asked so frequently. kzread.infozOIpNpMs3fs

I was really curious about Windows on ARM since the days of the Snapdragon 835 and I bought a Galaxy Book Go that have the same config as the Dot 1. It wouldn't say it's great, I don't even know if I would call it good, but I paid 170$ for it, which is a pretty decent price. I tried a bunch of games and while 3D is basically a no-go, 2D indies are usually running okay-ish and you can run older 3D games from the late-90s to mid-00s with no major problems. The big problem for normal use if the stupidly small 4 GB of RAM, it's simply not enough for x64 emulation and the bare minimum for browsing with a native browser. I definitely didn't need it, I have a M1 MacBook Air, but I wanted to test the state of WoA. I entirely blame Qualcomm for dragging down the industry in the last 6-7 years, including smartphones, tablets, laptops and smarwatches, thanks to Apple for finally showing that ARM can have good performances that can rival x86.

@rafradeki

Жыл бұрын

It appears that apple is the only company that actually cares about ARM performance in consumer space. Which is a shame, if only apple is doing it then it might as well not count

@ProDigit80

Жыл бұрын

Your fault for going with the 4GB version. On the other hand, try to disable the Hybernation file (not really needed anyway, as regular sleep mode on the GO easily lasts a couple of weeks), and remove any windows upgrade files. Use an external microSD card, and install your apps/downloads/videos/photos on that. Manually set the SWAP file to 3GB (4GB if you want to run some higher end stuff, though I don't know what more advanced software needing the extra ram you'd run), and stick with the optimized Edge browser instead. Set it to google as default search engine; disable and uninstall bloatware (like xbox shizz you don't need anyway), and your ssd will run with at least 20GB of free space. Make sure you create a basic recovery drive for windows 11, as the advanced (recovering system files) isn't possible on ARM yet. It should at least allow your system to boot into recovery mode, and give you the option to do basic fixes (like MBR , boot partition, formatting and other adjustments).

Microsoft does have experience running Windows on non-Intel ISAs. Nearly 25 years ago, Windows NT 3.51 ran on Digital Alpha processors, and Digital provided a binary translation layer called FX!32 that could actually run x86 executables fairly decently.

@RobertWilke

Жыл бұрын

Yes I remember those days. Fun part is they also ran great for the time. Then Intel became the dominant cpu manufacturer and those other designs became discontinued. ARM with how Apple has been doing it the first in a long time to challenge Intel and Intel was caught flatfooted. With that said though QUALCOMM is in almost the same position as Intel. They became the dominate SoC for many small devices and they worked good enough. Apple being that they bought their own license for ARM has had the time and R&D to make their own chips shine. To the fact that performance wise it was on par with i5 cpus for a few years. Now with M1and 2 it's just showing how badly QUALCOMM has been resting on it's laurels. Let's hope Micro$oft gets it act together with ARM.

@autohmae

Жыл бұрын

I've heard it even ran certain large x64 applications better than Intel chips at the time.

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

remember when intel wanted IA-64, but AMD pushed x64/AMD64? Microsofts supported IA-64. Microsofts Kernel and compiler team is a lot more flexible then what we see on the consumer side. Problem is: the market has a lot of momentum.

@heyhoe168

Жыл бұрын

@@sarowie AMD has no position to push. They won market because they was not as greedy as intel.

I think the exclusivity deal may be over already. Mediatek is now hiring devs for Windows on Arm bring-up and VMware has added official support for it in Fusion.

Yeah, I picked up the Snapdragon Developer Kit (ECS LIVA Mini Box QC710 Desktop) with the same 7c, mostly out of curiosity. I'm a fan of SFF and very-low-TDP computing, therefore ARM and U designated x86 CPU's. This device is a start, but they really need to raise the bar. Hopefully very soon we'll get Apple M1+ "equivalent" power in an RPi form-factor. Pocketable Desktop Computing, be it Windows, Linux, Android, or other. And it's nice seeing Asahi Linux become a thing.

@ronaldglider

Жыл бұрын

Very happy with Asahi on M1

Interesting results, thanks for bring up Apcsilmic test, looks promising when Windows ARM is out there. I've been using MacBook Air M1 8GB with Parallels 17 and Windows 11 insider preview very smoothly, even with x86 apps that Windows translates to arm64 (if I am no wrong).

This is classic MS behavior. Develop something that’s usually still very rough, release many patches etc., then - it finally runs right: Bam, new Windows release. Rinse and Repeat. Plus, this device seems like it’s late to the party.

@heyhoe168

Жыл бұрын

windows xp x64 deja vu

Win 11 on Arm works good in virtualiztion(Parallels) on my M1 MAC. I am able to run visual studio / sql server as a dev instance. Hopefully they will end these silly qualcomm agreements. Good video Jeff.

@ARVash

Жыл бұрын

I think it's not just the agreements, it's also their self-sabotaging relationship to the agreements.

@EivindGussiasLkseth

Жыл бұрын

When is the deal going to end? I don't think he said that in the video? Then MS can make a deal with Apple on M2 or maybe M3...

Qualcom and Microsoft was a match made in hell. I hope we get Tegra-based computers after the exclusivity deal is over.

@jonasdatlas4668

Жыл бұрын

I'd have anything that isn't Qualcomm at this point. If Samsung wants to get into this, they're more than welcome :P Honestly Qualcomm's stranglehold on certain parts of the industry more than deserves antitrust action.

@Matthew_MBG

Жыл бұрын

tegra.. thats nvidia, right?

@NoorquackerInd

Жыл бұрын

Heh we'd have Windows on the Nintendo Switch

@Tailslol

Жыл бұрын

no tegra with nintendo exclusivity, you can get only nvidia dev boards for the moment (jetsons)

@deldarel

Жыл бұрын

@@Tailslol I have one that I sometimes toy around with. I don't need them to ship with windows, I just would like support. There are a few things I'd like to run on it that just aren't supported in linux, and wine is pretty broken for ARM.

2:00 powershell taking a long time seems to be a problem with windows, i've had this happen on even 16 core processors, though that might be a side affect of windows running for 90 days without having access to ECC RAM

@patrpatl

Жыл бұрын

32 core processors be like

@edwardallenthree

Жыл бұрын

IKR?! I had a theory for a while that it was 3d accelerated, badly. It is faster to get a command prompt by loading vscode!

@NiyaKouya

Жыл бұрын

Uh... dunno what you mean, powershell itself starts within a second on my system (Ryzen 7 5800H laptop) and pretty much all desktops/laptops/servers I've used in the past. The only PS variant that's slow as hell to load that I can think of is the Exchange shell because it just takes ages to load all the modules...

Holy crap, never would I have imaged a board developer create something where WiFi is faster than wired! They left *so* much performance on the table by using such an old standard through which to pass their wired network connection!

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

My best guess is the Qualcomm chip designs being mobile first/only don't have any particular IO lanes dedicated to networking (besides for WiFi), therefore the only way to get networking is through the USB ports, and if you put it on the USB 3.0 bus, that would share bandwidth and make other USB 3.0 devices slower if using the network. An annoying tradeoff.

@afkafkafk

Жыл бұрын

You could have a tiny router/accesspoint on the board and have it connect to the rest of the pc through WiFi and that still would be better than the wired connection. I might patent this as airgapped ethernet lmao

@ProDigit80

Жыл бұрын

In many cases, wired makes no sense. I run 48 Atomic Pi units as a computing cluster, and tried running them through ethernet, but the wire mess, the hardware cost, and extra power consumption, made me decide to just go wifi on all units. 48 units work quite fine with our home modem, in addition to 2 repeaters, 3 TVs, 4 laptops, and 4 cellphones. So far we've had zero issues. The wifi of the 48 units doesn't stay on always, it only intermittently transmits data. I see no reason other than when trying to find drivers to make the wifi work in a terminal screen (where as ethernet usually works out of the box after OS installation), to use Ethernet. Just because it's a set standard, do you still use USB 1.0?

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

imagine a smartphone... and you have a device with fast Wifi and fast Celular and little to no wired Ethernet support.

I'm not sure if Microsoft includes all their telemetry stuff in the ARM build, but it might be worth going through a decrapifier script and hard disabling windows defender to reclaim some performance. It's doubly important with slow disks like this where there's a lot of small read/write thrashing.

@valerafox7795

Жыл бұрын

this one is slow? 💀💀 rip hdd then

i'm waiting for a risc-v raspberry pi 🥺👀

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

You and me both! I might finally have time to test out a new RISC-V board later this year.

@ilfirinms

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling Risc-V and especially not Raspberry Foundation are not in shape to do it. They never did, they took another OS (Debian) and another HW (broadcom media players) and glued it together. For first years, not very successfully (for example armel instead of armhf). Their domain is not core development, but popularisation, books, magazines, education and charity and that's fine.

@ronaldglider

Жыл бұрын

you are in for a long wait

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

Жыл бұрын

I think that category of devices is starting to appear. Of course they’ll run Linux. While Microsoft is still struggling to catch up with ARM.

Love your videos!

So the ARM mini-PC is more energy efficient but it has a major flaw: it cannot run the huge WIndows x86 software base at full speed or full compatibility. Windows on ARM is a weak substitute.

During the recent heat wave (PNW, but we all had one), I shut down my x86 servers to save power and reduce heat. My little Pi cluster based on your "dramble" powered most of my needs just fine. I just wish, however, I had more bandwidth on a low powered ARM device to run a decent media storage server.

@EvertG8086

Жыл бұрын

An m1 Mac mini might fit the bill. It’s not cheap but it is low powered.

This is especially ironic since Window NT (and therefore the NT Kernel, used in all versions of Windows since Windows XP) was written from scratch in C instead of Assembly like DOS/earlier versions of Windows starting in the late 80's specifically in order to allow Windows to be able to migrate smoothly onto ARM architecture. Microsoft knew ARM was the future in the 1980's and Windows on ARM is still shit. Wild how giant corporations' internal politics can cause stuff like this.

@KameraShy

Жыл бұрын

Giant corporations' internal politics always override common sense.

@electronics-girl

Жыл бұрын

In the early days, Microsoft ported NT to other architectures like MIPS and PowerPC, but I don't think ARM was even on their radar at that time. ARM was for low-power, low-performance embedded use at that time. It wasn't until DEC developed the StrongARM in the mid '90s that people saw that ARM could be fast.

@Maximara

Жыл бұрын

@@KameraShy Apple: Excuse me? 🙂

@Undercoverfire

Жыл бұрын

@@electronics-girl Ahh, you're right. It was an Intel i860 RISC processor that was the initial target. All the same, they knew RISC was the future.

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

@@Undercoverfire so did intel - but IA-64/Itanium failed

I tried Windows 10 ARM on my Honeycomb board, installed on a SATA drive, and it was actually quite snappy. That's despite not even having any Windows ARM drivers for the AMD GPU I had in the thing! I'll bet the primary reason this thing is so excruciatingly slow is whatever they used as the storage device. There's really no excuse for not having gigabit ethernet, since there was a Qualcomm dev board (IFC6410) way back in 2013 that had a PCIe gigabit ethernet card and a SATA port. (From that board, I learned: never buy a board that doesn't have a community and real kernel support behind it.)

@thegeforce6625

Жыл бұрын

i dont think 500MB/s read and 200MB/s write and 20MB/s random read would be considered excruciatingly slow.

This Qualcomm 7cx has a license core Cortex A76: - IPC (performance per GHz) is about AMD Zen 1 and Intel Skylake level - 1st desktop class architecture from ARM Holding - released 2018 - core has 4-wide scalar integer engine consists of 3xALU + 1x Branch - FPU is 2x 128-bit FMA (pretty similar to AMD Zen 1) Raspberry Pi 4 has Cortex A72 from 2015 with approximately 50% IPC of Zen 1 (or A76). To sum up: this A76 core is huge upgrade from A72 in RPi4. Similar jump like Core2 Duo to Alder Lake in x86. Intel doubled IPC in 15 years while ARM doubled IPC in just 3 years. This is pretty remarkable. And if you ask where is an IPC of new Cortex X3 then it is about 1.8x higher than this A76 (or 1.2x AMD Zen3 or 1.1xAlder Lake). It's a shame we get A76 core from 2018 in 2022 while new and much powerful Cortexes are available.

Thanx for the video. 👍 As for ARM PCs, R-PIs and such have a major design flaw as far as data transfer rates and IOPS are concerned since their connections are ( USB ) bottlenecked. There are solutions though, such as the ROCKWELL ROC-RK35xx based firefly or Pine Quartz64, which offer PCIe connections and even M.2 support. You may want to check those next. 😉

How about a comparison with/video on Windows on ARM, running on M1/M2? It's running very well on Parallels for Mac already. Might even work on Asahi Linux via KVM, if you're very brave :P

I'm so angry at Microsoft for screwing this up so badly. Back in 2017, I predicted that something like this would happen, the reason being that it took them forever to even recompile the programs integrated into Windows 10 to ARM. Heck, the Camera App in Windows 11 ARM is still running the x86 version via the compatibility layer until today. The beta for the ARM version has just been announced a few days ago.

I also noticed that only 5.6GB of ram is available for use, I think a lot of the slowness you're seeing is from it using the SSD as swap space because it's running out of ram

2:33 Why thank you. I led the Firefox port to Windows on ARM. The Windows on ARM machines themselves have great battery life and the performance is great for native applications. Emulated apps transpile on the first run, so the second run isn't so bad. The overall experience of Windows on ARM isn't too bad if you mosly stay in the browser.

Unplug your Ethernet cable, and it will connect to Wi-Fi, I feel like Windows doesn't bother with Wi-Fi if you also have a wired connection.

@circadianrebel

Жыл бұрын

It specifically prefers wired, which is normally a good assumption,

@ilfirinms

Жыл бұрын

And it sounds reasonable. I would be ... not happy, if I make labor to bring cable to my computer, to makes it decide for itself wifi is fine.

@autohmae

Жыл бұрын

I've also seen it prefer wirelsss over wired, it's definitely better to just turn off the one you don't want it to use.

30 years ago Microsoft was a world leader in compiler and development tool technology. They’ve fallen FAR behind. The secret to MacOS on ARM is the exceptional compiler/development/emulation technology. Microsoft just doesn’t compete. MacOS developers only had to click a box and recompile/test to release a full fat app supporting both legacy Intel and new Mx ARM.

@Undercoverfire

Жыл бұрын

30 years ago Microsoft wrote the NT kernel in C as opposed to x86 Assembly specifically to be forward-compatible with ARM and other subsequent new architectures. They've grown complacent and won't catch up with ARM till they've lost an absurd degree of market-share

@vinnytube1001

Жыл бұрын

We laughed at Ballmer for running around and chanting "Developers Developers Developers," but MS seems to have missed the point. He was right. We were just making fun of the way he did it.

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

@@Undercoverfire 30 years ago, Microsoft had no idea which CPU platform would "win". So they wrote their kernel to be ported easily and they put in the time to port included applications to for e.g. Intel Itanium. But... no: the NT Kernel was not written with ARM in mind - the NT Kernel was written with many cpus and Instructions sets in mind.

Thanks Jeff. Great review. You are right!

Thank you for the very insightful video, I am currently using a RasPI 4 with 8 Gigs to test Arm64/Windows11 builds of my open source software and was thinking about getting a Apcsilmic instead, now I know it would have been a waste of money. The cooling solution in this design is terrible. A RasPi 4 with a proper cooling solution seams far superior even though on paper the SOC is not as powerful. I'm wondering what would be the best ARM64 platform to run windows nowadays that is somewhat well priced?

Once the Qualcomm/Microsoft exclusivity deal ends, I really hope Apple is able to bootcamp Windows on Arm.

@bapt_andthebasses

Жыл бұрын

no

@heyhoe168

Жыл бұрын

You mean yet one more proprietary hardware platform? Pls no.

I wonder how much of tis is actually Windows on ARM and how much is that specific hardware? I regularly run Windows on ARM in Parallels on my M1 Mac and I don't notice any issues at all in day to day uses. I can even run a good number of games from Steam. This is the same version of Windows, right?

@alex15095

Жыл бұрын

If you want to see true horrors, try running Linux ARM64 on a RPi3, then compare and try running Windows on ARM. It took me SEVEN hours to download and run a debloating script on Windows 10. SEVEN HOURS. I can't imagine what Windows 11 is like.

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

@@alex15095 try Ubuntu on a raspberry pi 4. I will not repeat that mistake. I mean, the whole reason why even tried Ubuntu on a raspberry pi was not good (messy build scripts originally written for windows which download qt binaries from an internal sever, ported to Linux (the idea of using the native QT of a linux distribution is somewhat possible - just use messy sim links to "emulate" the messy recreation of a messy windows dependency management) building trying to build code that has "some" switches for legacy qt version, that just don't fit the random qt version that comes with raspberian, because a version check was not written proper)

8:36 do you have a source for Apple adding special translation hardware into their chips?

I've gotten windows running in a VM on Apple silicon. UTM had a guide on their website. Ive managed to install the Arm build of Visual Studio. And it works! The biggest drawback is graphical performance as there's no hardware acceleration. Using Remote desktop instead of the built-in display does work better as it's optimised for GPU-less systems but it's a bit of a drag to use. Also it's missing a bunch of built-in apps like the windows store. I couldn't get windows terminal installed on it.

Agreed across the board. If MS had put any effort into ARM optimization and compatibility, they could have been an ARM juggernaut by now. They've been in the ARM desktop OS game much longer than Apple (Windows RT debuted in 2011 or so), but MS has always treated ARM like the redheaded step-child. Windows on ARM today is just as sluggish as it was a decade ago, and the app ecosystem has improved slightly but is still pathetic. It's fun to putz around with WOR on my Pi every now and again, but that's about all it's useful for so far.

@killerdeamonking

Жыл бұрын

They wont ever put the optimizations in, they cant even optimize windows 10 and 11 on x86_x64 without breaking it.

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

Жыл бұрын

They *were* the “ARM juggernaut”, until Android came along.

I hope it will get support for Linux, so we could use it for real.

i have ibm power 6 i haveing probems getting access to it do u know anything about configering it base ios is loaded to say the base commands there networking updates so on so forth i want load vmware on it do u know anything about this system

5:44 i think that is true when used with a dock that have ethernet bcz my lap always gone to the adapter that have not the built in one even its not pugged in. the same goes for wifi auto connect dosent work and i actually removed the ethernet from device manager and then everything seems fine now i have a better dock.

The wifi thing was because you had ethernet connected, windows in my experience always defaults to a wired connection if there's one active.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

It's okay to default to the wired connection... but on my other computers (mac/linux), they still will maintain the wifi connection even if Ethernet is first in priority/routing order, since there are good reasons to be connected to two networks at a time. It seems like a bug to me if Windows doesn't connect to WiFi if that checkbox is checked :(

@9SMTM6

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling it is how it's always behaved for me since I started caring to check (few years ago). Only situation it'll try to fall back to wireless is if it figures internet connectivity is problematic via ethernet (dunno how it judges that, probably just when it has no connection at all).

@daysiewaysie

Жыл бұрын

@pocketables.com @Jeff Geerling whatever happened to setting adaptor metrics ? lowest metric wins. and then i also think that, driver specific (what the adaptor manufacturer allows you to adjust in their network adaptor's driver config settings) there if sometimes the option to disable wireless if ethernet is connected. obvs, we want to turn this off if we want to have both adaptors active (multi-homed ?)

@Pocketablescom

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling No argument that it could have better behavior, it's just what i'm used to seeing on every pc i've worked with unless I did something specific(multi-homed systems with wifi on one network and wired another) the faster wifi than lan is an odd situation you almost have to use bad hardware to be in.

Windows 11 doesn't even run that great on a good machine, can't imagine using this thing.

@ProDigit80

Жыл бұрын

Not true. The newest patches run better than any version before, using even less ram; all the way down to Vista; AND add to this the compatibility layers with previous windows. .net framework needed for older apps, also became a lot smaller. 4.5, 4.8 can do as much as 2.3, but at half or a quarter the resources.

@TrolleyMC

Жыл бұрын

lmao

@jordanplays-transitandgame1690

Жыл бұрын

You are a bit behind Windows 11 performance is good now

I still need virtualization for older x86 Windows software. It would be useful to have a Compute Stick-sized computer to plug into Apple Silicon Macs to run older Intel software natively, with modular (cheaper, non-Apple) storage. I have an M1 Mini, so size isn’t too important, but it would good to have a portable solution for MacBooks.

I looked into porting my software to windows for arm a few years ago but all test devices had super bad reviews and were expensive so I decided to wait a bit longer for something better to arrive. I am still waiting.

It's so true! The surface pro x was fantastic and yet it was barely supported. Qualcomm should sue for breaching the good faith and fair dealing with contracts, since their non-committal approach to the exclusivity deal was borderline sabotage. I will say too that this move to arm really highlights just how much more useful open source software is, since you can just recompile it for arm. If the business is "out of business" it's fine, you can still use your mission critical software.

@RK-um9tu

Жыл бұрын

You have no idea what you are talking about. And you do not even own a SPX. I have a 2020 SPX and it gets regular updates like all other Windows devices. Trying going to Windows Central and educationing yourself. Bet you feel pretty stupid right about now..lol

I remember that story in 2017 that intel almot sued microsoft for emulation x86 on arm with zero to no degradation on performance. Intel didn't liked that in time and looks like it made microsoft stop it's development. Microsoft knew arm would come

@joelcarson4602

Жыл бұрын

How does Apple get away with hardware assisting x86 on the M1? You would think that Intel would be pretty whizzed off about that, especially after losing Apple as a major customer.

Question how would arm on windows look like on 3x priced computer to be inline with mac mini i bet kinda close

On slow startups: Try loading the same app again. The first time an X86 or X64 app loads on W11 ARM you will get a delay because it’s running a JIT compiler to create the ARM code blocks. After that initial delay the compiled blocks are cached and it should load much faster the next time. The same goes for major dialogs and functions within apps. First time slow, later faster.

You seem to be missing a really important point in this video, why should Microsoft bother to make Windows on ARM any good?. The two advantages of ARM are power efficiency and adding special silicon to speed up certain tasks, but the burden of switching isnt worth it, at least for Microsoft. For example the M1 was impressive when it was new but its no longer faster than its x86 competitors and the M2 only gives an incimental improvment of the same magnitude we see with x86 CPU improvements. Apples media engine is cool but is only useful in niche use cases, I can be fairly confident in saying less than 10% of users will notice it at all and Nvidias GPUs are likley catch up in video editing next gen. Apple switched to ARM because they already had ARM expertise in house and they wanted more of the profit margin to themselves, if they kept using Intel and AMD they would have to keep giving them over $200 for every machine they made. The only downside of x86 that effects users is the worse power efficiency, but good x86 laptops already get 10h+ of battery. Microsoft are sticking with x86 because they dont need to invest anything, the performance is more or less the same, and it allows them to retain compatability with 30 year old software. Additionally its not really fair to compare a $250 computer from a no name company against a $1000+ computer from one of the worlds largest companies. Its like how some people buy a $200 Android phone and go "why is Android still so terrible" when they are coming from a $1000 iPhone. I am sure the software experience would be a lot better with Microsofts own ARM devices. I think it would have been a better idea to buy a similarly priced x86 machine to compare it with.

@thewiirocks

Жыл бұрын

I hear where you're coming from, but as a complete package the M1/M2 are still crushing the x86 platform. The Intel CPUs can only keep pace with Apple's CPUs when burning many times as much power. Which generally means plugged in. Whereas the Apple laptops can go all day running at that performance on battery. Bring in specialized tasks like Video Production and AI, and the seemingly parity performance just drops to nothing. Apple's CPUs absolutely *crush* Intel CPUs for professional productivity. Microsoft is in a tough spot. They're being forced to retreat into the budget category and their classic software bastions like 3D Modelling. Budget is extremely low margin and if Apple ever cracks some of Microsoft's bastions, they're done for as a competitor. Microsoft has to hope and pray that Intel can catch up before that happens. Which isn't a great strategy given how Intel basically brought this current situation onto themselves. Microsoft is going to need a backup plan.

@somerandomdude4300

Жыл бұрын

@@thewiirocks The problem Apple has is that these are all niche scenarios. For example needing high performance computing without proximity to electricity is rare, so Apple ends up in this weird niche. Another example would be high end video editing, large productions will use high power servers with orders of magnitude more power than any single computer, so the laptops hardware is irrelevant, on the other end of the spectrum simple video editing tasks work fine on the cloud using tools like kapwing or built in editors, so Apple again ends up dominating this uncommon niche which tends to be KZreadrs. In terms of AI workloads Apple ends up in another niche, big companies working on AI tend to use the cloud for training models, or in house high power servers, so the laptop doesnt matter, and for smaller companies AI is uncommon, and when it is used its typically just using somebody elses pre-trained model which doesnt require a whole lot of power. The problem Apple has is that being better in some use cases isnt good enough if they want a larger marketshare, they need to be better in almost all cases while being cheaper. Microsoft has nothing to worry about because their core customer is not the consumer but the buisness and Apple does not take the buissness market seriously. They have no answer for Microsoft 365, their computers are more expensive, and their computers are more difficult to manage centrally.

@ronaldglider

Жыл бұрын

I think the real reason that Apple migrated to ARM is that today's system performance is less dependent on the CPU-core performance, and much more on the accelerators (GPU is one example). Intel has been (way too much) core performance focused (because that is the game they played for 30 years - apparently the only game they know). The game-changer of M1/M2 is _not_ the CPU-core performance, but the *total* _SoC_ performance. Intel missed that boat. If uSoft keep focusing on Intel X86 - they will miss that boat too. Jeff: thanks for a great video - I don't understand why this box is put onto the market...

@RK-um9tu

Жыл бұрын

@@thewiirocks Another fact-free Apple fanboy posting NONSENSE. 1. Laptopmag's battery test rankings has Apple laptops at #4, #9, and #10. So M1 has made Apple on par with the best Windows laptops. 2. Apple still has 8% laptop and desktop market share, so NO ONE cares about the M1 chip. 3. 99.9999% of small businesses, corporations, educational instutitions, nonprofits, and ngos across the entire planet use Windows. 4. Services, AppleTV and AppleCare, are the fastest growing source of revenue for Apple. You are welcome for the free education.

@thewiirocks

Жыл бұрын

@@ronaldglider Actually, Apple's choice of ARM was much simpler. Intel refused to create the mobile chips that Apple needed. Apple actually went to them first, and they thought the iPhone would be a low margin business. So Apple was forced to go ARM and decided to develop their own chip platform. They got really good at it and eventually added the few remaining features to make them desktop-class chips. I remember hearing things like the "A12 is faster than desktop computers". Which was a bold claim to make, but something we couldn't really test. Now that Apple has packaged their CPUs into laptops, we can test it and the results are really spectacular.

And Qualcomm was blocked by Intel when they wanted to have an emulation/translation layer for x86_64 but later on they somewhat solved that and the feature is available on newer chips/systems (Microsoft ARM tablets and alike).

My recommendation, add another test. Maximizing a youtube video to full screen during playback in Windows, I'm still staggered some tiny chips really can't do it fluently! xD

I bought an ARM64 MediaTekMT8183 chromebook for a littler over $100, Lenovo 13" touchscreen . It is a snappy chip, even though ChromeOS is 32bit. I mostly install Crouton Linux programs that run at 64bit. I really like the ARM64.

Knowing for how long Windows has existed on ARM (anyone remember Windows 7 on Tegra chips ?), I am very unpleasantly surprised MS hasn't perfected it yet. I do sincerely hope something will change after the Qualcomm deal expires but these hopes are not high.

@valerafox7795

Жыл бұрын

tell me what they perfected too but excel, word, and their marketing plans?

@sarowie

Жыл бұрын

@@valerafox7795 excel is perfected? try opening a csv file and you see a dialog from excel 95 that still can not be resized.

@valerafox7795

Жыл бұрын

@@sarowie oh I mean the functionality it tries to provide )( It's all really good agree?

You know what's better than Windows on ARM? Not having to use that discusting OS since 10 was released, and having always an alternative regradless of the use case. Hopefully MS will continue shokting themselves in the foot, giving time for better alternatives to gain market share.

@everyhandletaken

Жыл бұрын

Ditto Just had to install W10 (haven’t been a Windows user for many years) for some specific network testing & parts that where terrible 25 years ago, are still exactly the same..

@triggeredleftyvegan6004

Жыл бұрын

Windows 8 was my turning point to go to Mac and I don’t miss it one bit.

I am rocking UTM with qemu using arm emulation. It's almost native performance. x86 emulation is little bit slow though on Apple silicon

Interesting to see. I run Windows Arm with Parallels on the baseline MacBook Air M1 - I can play Left 4 Dead in native resolution und eben very old games like NFS Underground and Command&Conquer Red Alert 2. The M1 is just so surprising…

Loading all these widgets and ads and bloatware and telemetry takes too much processing power for the poor device.

Windows 11 on ARM just highlights how inefficient Windows 11 is. On low end hardware the user experience is poor to say the least even when hacking the X86 version to run on older hardware it is a poor user experience.

@RK-um9tu

Жыл бұрын

And what is Windows market share. Bet you feel pretty stupid right about now...lol

@schrodingerscat1863

Жыл бұрын

@@RK-um9tu No I don't feel stupid at all, why should I, I don't even use windows the vast majority of the time.

@valerafox7795

Жыл бұрын

@@RK-um9tu it's only existing in desktop market dude 💀 the other systems just don't fight for it as they won't go apologize for that guy

@eulehund99

Жыл бұрын

What does that say? The only comparison in OS on low end hardware is between Linux and Windows. You either choose a OS where you can't run many apps without translation (-> slow) or a OS which runs them but is fairly slow overall.

@schrodingerscat1863

Жыл бұрын

@@eulehund99 It was people accepting a low quality OS in the first place that led to this. Windows is an architectural mess and the corporate culture at Microsoft prevents it getting any better. They keep churning out the same garbage time after time with a nice new UI on it rather than sorting out the fundamental problems. They have been planning to replace NTFS for about 15 years now and still haven't got anywhere with it.

It’s funny because the best Windows on ARM experience is probably on an Apple Silicon Mac running Parallels. That’s what I do for my Windows only Steam games on my M1 MBP. I wouldn’t use it for at home gaming as I have an actual gaming PC for that but on the go it works just fine.

IME the first time you open PowerShell on a Windows machine there is a delay of a few seconds. I've seen it in umpteen Windows 2019 instances in AWS.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

True; I mentioned in the caption that subsequent launches take 5-7 seconds still. Like I said, I can forgive it for being slower than my AMD desktop, but I would expect 1-2 seconds for a terminal application. It's not like it's going to render the matrix for me!

@RayHartrayrayrayray

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling Ah okay, yes every time afterward it should be fast. This is one little annoyance of years of working with Windows Server that has led to me developing an eye twitch. That, and opening IE and seeing all those extra first-run tabs pop up. Or running invoke-webrequest to avoid IE only to forget -UseBasicParsing..

windows really doesn't want to run on anything less than a massive high-power system, every attempt over the years has been mediocre at best and comically unusable at worst

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

Their mobile phone OS was actually decent on lower powered hardware, and slightly innovative with the tile concept. I wish they had stuck around longer, but the iOS/Android duopoly made sure that didn't happen :(

@9SMTM6

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling it was decent, but another not very open ecosystem. At least at that time Android was more open, even if far less efficient.

@patrpatl

Жыл бұрын

Just imagine how cool it would be to run windows on M1 chip.

@jstan5802

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling RIP Windows Phone

@FindecanorNotGmail

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffGeerling Yeah, but Windows Phone wasn't really the same as Windows for PCs. If I'm not mistaken, Microsoft also screwed up by making too many changes between OS versions, which e.g. made old apps not available for newer Windows phones.

Perhaps you needed to manually connect to Wi-Fi because Windows sees ethernet as a generally better connection than wireless (even if in this case it wasn't) and in the video you were connected to ethernet.

@prozac192

Жыл бұрын

You can manually set the metric in the advanced section of the IPv4 settings to prefer wifi and make ethernet the fallback option.

MS has done previous ARM devices for industry niche markets. WinCE etc. The slowdown in processor translation is why rosetta 2 uses a physical chip for translation on the m1.

A couple corrections: - Apple hasn't built x64 binary translation in their SoC, they "just" have an addressing mode that makes it slightly easier, but that feature is also supported in some Ampere and Nvidia chips - That's a 7c, it's the lower end, 8cx runs A LOT better (I'm daily driving it in a Surface Pro X SQ2) - They're finally pushing, somewhat. Last Build conference had content specific for Windows on ARM, and they also announced "Project Volterra", a devkit similar to Apple's DTK - Since then they've released two previews for ARM-native Visual Studio and announced that it will go stable in the next release (17.4) - More and more software is being migrated to ARM64, I was even surprised Teams got a native version on Windows before macOS (yep, I know, I shouldn't be surprised but it's Microsoft) - Even if classic Minecraft is written in Java, I think it still bundles an x64 version of the JRE and native libs, so it will be emulated anyway :) - Windows PowerShell sucks even on x64 but that thing only exists for backwards compatibility, you should try PowerShell 7 (dark blue icon)

there are 4 apple cpu switches actually. first switch from mos 6502 to Motorola 68000, 2nd to PowerPC, 3rd to intel, 4th switch is to apple silicon. However the first two apple computers, apple1 and apple2 were not a "mac" and only the later were mac so technically you're not wrong. 🙃

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

Technically correct is the best kind of correct ;)

@FindecanorNotGmail

Жыл бұрын

There is more than one way to count! ;) • Apple did actually release 32-bit Intel machines, without support for x86-64, so there was also a transition from x86-32 to x86-64, with 32-bit support being discontinued before the switch to Apple Silicon began. • Modern macOS is based on NeXTStep, which had been available also for SPARC and PA-RISC, beside 68030/040 and x86-32. All four were once supported at once though. So they already had experience when switching the code-base to PowerPC, and then _back_ to x86-32.

@Mr_ToR

Жыл бұрын

@@FindecanorNotGmail from 32 to 64 the instruction set is backwards compatible so that doesn't count. Apple continued macs without jobs so next on 68k,sparc or pa-risc don't count as well since they don't count as apple or mac just as apple 2 has nothing to do with macs other than only being produced under jobs. nice comment though.

@electronics-girl

Жыл бұрын

I don't think Apple II counts, since it is a totally different computer, but if you're going to count Apple II, then you forgot the switch from 6502 to 65C816 that happened with the Apple IIgs. (8 bit to 16 bit.)

@Mr_ToR

Жыл бұрын

@@electronics-girl ​ I wish there were more computers with the 65C816 :-) No I didn't forget, just like how I didn't count the difference between 32bit/64bit intel cpus, I didn't count 6502/65C816 since the instructions are backwards compatible. Anyways, you're right Apple 2 is a separate thing. Yet, Jeff said MAC cpu switches and I said Apple cpu switches.

I'm afraid that the attempt to run x86 software on ARM might outright kill the lower end WoA devices. I own a 7c based laptop and my experience using it with Linux, where all software can be native built, is pretty much amazing. Yes, it requires the knowledge and quite a bit of time to even get it to work due to the way how Linux handles mobile ARM chipsets like this, but IMO the hardware is pretty good as an "office" computer, and even (properly built and configured) Minecraft java can run on the thing at 60 fps so I don't see it being a problem running games on it if those were natively built. But the MS ecosystem right now seems to pretty much assume x86 compatible PC with them allowing you to run "broken" software and be disappointed. And when they try to "fix" it by restricting the user (the "s" mode), people also get disappointed because no one will rebuild the software for the new arch. Maybe this shows one of the advantages of FOSS - the software can be built for the new arch at the decision of the distro maintainer or even the end user with no action needed from the developer, who, at this point, might be absent. This is almost impossible when all you get is the precompiled binary blob.

@-aexc-

Жыл бұрын

I never even considered buying an arm laptop, :/.

Got 10 of these yesterday :) For Ci/Cd on Windows ARM. There are simply no alternatives that would work stably. Except for Microsoft project Volterra, but even if I get it, only with NDA :(

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

Ha! Well it is perfect for that use case. Kind of like some people were using Raspberry Pis for some ARM compilation for Linux just because there wasn't anything else small, power efficient, and stable to match.

"A 10 hundred megabit Ethernet jack". I would've just said a "100Mbps Ethernet jack" because they're typically always backwards compatible. Less confusing too since I spent a few seconds trying to compute 10 100s "you mean gigabit?". Also, isn't it pronounced "vay-sa" for VESA? Love the channel! Professional and great coverage of fun computing.

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

For 10/100 usually it's listed like that in specs, so I read it as 'ten-hundred', but I can see how it's more confusing spoken like that! I don't know how VESA is pronounced, I just say it as I read it :D Pronunciation is hard!

To be fair, outside of server Neoverse chips & Apple, Qualcomm makes the most top end ARM chips available. Maybe Nvidia will compete a little more in the future, but for now its just automotive embedded development boards & the promise of an HPC & AI CPU, as well as some old designs in Nintendo Switches. Sure, Samsung & Mediatek exist, but its not like they already have a chip that simply outclasses Qualcomm. So I don't think it was the exclusivity deal, that is the problem. Apple has not only delivered a better emulator, but also the support, tools, pressure and example on migrating software, and Microsoft just hasn't. When even their own software isn't available natively, why should anyone else care. Not to mention most people who use Windows do so for the compatibility, not because it is good. So even if they can switch away from that, why would they go to Windows on ARM?

PowerShell has always been slow

@JeffGeerling

Жыл бұрын

🔫 "Always has been"

@lawrencedoliveiro9104

Жыл бұрын

It’s all that Dotnet cruft. There’s a reason why Microsoft itself will not use Dotnet for anything important, like Office.

I would be interested to see a video on how do you adapt Linux to a device from scratch that don't have support. If I knew how to do that would use it on TV boxes to make it decent computers instead of android only. There are stuff like batocera, recalbox and emulelec but those are for gaming only.

I am so happy that you made this video. No one is talking about this topic. At least not speaking honestly. Great points you made in favor of Windows on arm and how good it could be only if MS put in some efforts, which MS will never do. MS and Intel must have some understanding that MS will not ditch Intel for others like arm or AMD. Which MS must do. Power efficiency should be the top priority in these days as there will be extreme shortages of silicon. It is better to prepare good arm chips that lasts long.

I really don't think the performance issues your seeing has anything to do with Windows11, Win 11 on Apple Silicon VM performs fantastic, and games even work too. So leads me to believe the state of ARM Windows is really just in need of much better hardware, on par with M1.

@ruxcooking

Жыл бұрын

Just take a look at the videos of windows games running on a pocophone F1 . It blows this thing out if the water.

Hmm, the frustrations of poor hardware / OS / software development and integration. A food analogy from someone who has been using and developing all sorts of computers for over 40 years: Windows is your favourite food prepared by an incompetent cook who's only interest is keeping the boss sweet - customers be dammed. Linux is a horrible broth made by too many cooks who are only interested in each other's feedback - again customers be dammed. Oh, and Apple: Ok food, somewhat well made. But they've found adding poison means they can empty customer's pockets more efficiently.

Hi. Is it possible to Run hyper-v on it with arm64 vm inside? Windows guest and Linux guest?

The mini-PCs with the J4125 CPUs were just on sale for Cdn$211, but with a Cdn$50 coupon, so that's Cdn$161 or about US$125. I was looking at the ad on Amazon Canada just yesterday. Didn't buy, as I already have one with a N5095 CPU that was only Cdn$260 a few months ago. Almost time to sprinkle these into all sorts of applications around the house.

I first thought you were complaining about the device when you said it took 9s to open powershell. Because it takes ages on my development PC with a fairly decent Intel Chip too. Yeah powershell is just slow.

@creesch

Жыл бұрын

Well that depends, if you have all sorts of scripts and other stuff put in your powershell profile then it might indeed be slow. But generally speaking on a new windows install it isn't slow. Certainly not several seconds slow.

Putting Windows on anything is wasted potential.

@NoorquackerInd

Жыл бұрын

based

@valerafox7795

Жыл бұрын

giga W

@MuhammadWafadar-HussainIbrahim

Жыл бұрын

True, depends on use case.

@tactical7601

Жыл бұрын

Basadísimo el mariachi 👏🏻 Denle una chela a ese wey 🍻🍺

@Splarkszter

4 ай бұрын

Linux and FLOSS for the win.

Macs on Apple's ARM SOCs also have a Driver issue. No one mentions this but almost no Hardware OEM makes drivers for ARM. Windows or MacOS. Usually the in-built drivers are enough though.

@geerlingguy - Powershell sometimes times that long, I'd like to see the background to what it is doing (seen this on many different business windows 10/11 notebooks this past year.)

i lowkey felt the whole minute spent on bandwidth a bit unnecessary. it's not like the system can do much with more of it. just look at the steam download speeds, which requires cpu load for decompression.

It isn't wasted potential, Microsoft just knew they can't optimize their garbage OS to the point that it would run on the average ARM hardware without bad user experience

@ARVash

Жыл бұрын

That's the thing though, it actually works fine, the team did it. The problem is they didn't build any of the critical software for it even though because it's all written in .NET, making the move should have been trivial. It's incredibly frustrating, and I personally think they're pulling a shady move against qualcomm.

I need some help with the Microsoft Store I tried updating it and now it keeps getting stuck and I can’t cancel the update I was forced to download the Nvidia Control Panel from Nvidias website

I still have my MS Surface 2 RT with an ARM processor and running Windows RT. It's actually rather nice, except that they failed to live up to their promise to stop bugging me about Windows Updates; annoyingly the updates are still occasionally coming in. I even had to replace the battery in the Surface 2, which is quite the undertaking since the battery is at the very bottom of the hardware stack (requiring *complete* disassembly).

It's microsoft we are talking about, they were always trash in everything with SOME exceptions.

You know what's not wasted potential? Jeff's channel

@swaggitypigfig8413

Жыл бұрын

Typical like farming comment. Not surprised.

@MarcoGPUtuber

Жыл бұрын

@@swaggitypigfig8413 ....nope. Just giving some support to Jeff

It might be a aggressive power management on the chip. . A n4100 ran off a nvme seems quite a bit snappier. I’d love to see an active cooling version of this.

I really just want officially supported arm windows in a VM on Apple Silicon macs, then I can at least get rid of both of my work Intel macs. I know you can do it with parallels and that specific preview version of windows but I can't rely on that for work.

Windows is always a second class experience...

Recently I bought a Samsung Galaxy Book Go (7c 2nd gen) and I'm pretty happy with it for my use case: I use it as a thin PC that connects to my desktop PC through RDP. Battery lasts a lot, around 10 hour minimum, and it does not drain it when I put it to sleep. What I don't like about it is that I can't reinstall Windows on my own, only with the included image, as there is no official Windows 11 ISO for ARM64 and I can't download the drivers on Samsung's website. I know I can export them from my current installation, but that should not be needed. And also, I can't use any Linux distros on it. It does not even recognize the keyboard, mouse or any USB I connect. But still, for 160€, is a good thin client laptop :)

Jeff: Complaining about 100Mbps ethernet Me: Internet connection is only 24Mbps

I run my home server on a Odroid H2+ with an Intel J4115, at idle it sips around 5-6 watts and under load around 16 watts. It has similar Geekbench scores...

Wifi won't auto connect if Ethernet is connected on boot. If you boot it up with ethernet disconnected it will auto connect to your preferred wifi network. This happens on x86/x86_64 laptops and mobile devices as well.

Here a tip on the virtualization on mac apple actually made a vm framework example that is very usable sadly it seems to want a certain image format for the vm to start with for a linux so would be nice if someone can figure it out and mayb poke some distro guys to get these images out so one can do crazy vm stuff on macOS.

It would be interesting to see if Chrome OS Flex works on this as there are Chromebooks with the same snapdragon already available

I love my MBP m1 but I do miss running bootcamp. Maybe they will bring it back?