The last part was basically identical to the resource based economy proposed by Peter Joseph. And yes its basically high-tech socialism, but despite the aversion of Americans, there is nothing wrong with it. In fact it can be said that we are finally approaching the stage when the conditions actually allow for true socialism to exist, just like Marx has predicted. Also, people having equal access to material goods and having their needs equally covered does not it and of itself eliminate the qualitative differences between people, the kinds of differences that really matter and are the direct products of one's creativity or genius. In that situation you would still be able to design the most breathtaking house or write the most acclaimed philosophical tractatus or the deepest novel and be recognized and respected for it, thus assert your individuality to the fullest, only without this achievement *having to* manifest itself through meaningless hierarchies and via material rewards (money, properties, stuff) or having to signify your achievement via being better off than others - for these latter ones will simply cease to matter and besides creation being its own reward through a sense of accomplishment, the major currency will be symbolic capital, respect and self-mastery. There are of course things that such a society will have to regulate, like the rate of procreation for example, since if due to abundance people begin to have 10 kids per family, then a new cycle of scarcity would be perpetuated. I know that there are some people who instantly would howl, "how dare you limit the number of the fruits my groin can produce", but I think that kind of shortsighted mega-individualism will give way to a more inclusive and holistic way of thinking, which will recognize that certain structural/systemic compromises overall yield a better quality of life even from a highly individualistic perspective.

@AgrippaTheMighty

9 жыл бұрын

frostwork_bouquet Americans are not that scared of socialism. Look at presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, a self declared democratic socialist, and his overflowing rallies of thousands like the one in Portland, Oregon, of around 28,000 people. This senator from Vermont is gathering the biggest crowds by a long shot than of any racing presidential candidate, left or right, so far. Bernie Sanders is also the most sympathetic to the idea of Unconditional Basic Income (UBI).www.basicincome.org/news/2015/07/bernie-sanders-absolutely-sympathetic-basic-income/

@Hy-jg8ow

9 жыл бұрын

Agrippa The Mighty Indeed, I forgot about that, sorry. I didn't mean to offend. Also, I hope that he wins the elections. He or Jill Stein if I remember correctly from the green party. I would love to like the USA again.

@Hy-jg8ow

9 жыл бұрын

***** Historically yes, but the end goal of socialism, its ideal, was always something like I described above, especially all the left varieties of anarchism from left-libertarianism through mutualist anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism to anarcho-communism and post-left Marxism. These all represent varieties of socialism without any of them being statist or relying on exploitative capital. A historically working example of this were the Spanish communes (which were sadly destroyed by Franco's fascists from outside) about which details can be found in Orwell's A homage for Catalonia as well as in numerous speeches and writings of Noam Chomsky if you are interested. Even in relatively mild forms of socialism like social democracy, bums are way better off than those in cutthroat capitalist countries like the USA today due to the strong social safety net of the welfare state, in this regard look at the north European countries. Tho here I was mainly speaking about how socialism+major automation together could in theory end even the need for toiling work. Sadly capitalism+major automation can mimic and pretend scarcity and could continue to maintain its hierarchical, exploitative system for in its very bare logic it needs to do so in order to create the monetary value-differences and fluctuations which produce its main animating mechanism and its "winners" and "losers".

As nice as everyone living together as equals for eternity may sound on the surface... I do have fundamental opposition to such a thing. Living forever under the control of others (whom mandate how we must behave), with sadistic neighbors taking every chance possible to hurt you, and being powerless to change our environment would be hell on earth despite any amount of material wealth and physical well being. Material prosperity is only the first level(although perhaps the most important one) of existence. We should of course do what we can to achieve that prosperity, but it's not the only thing worthy of pursuing.

@supervibetrucker5570

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly.....its also been tried many many times and it has failed.....

Nikola, this was a fantastic interview. Especially because Marshal has exactally the same way of thinking as I do. I think mass unemployment is coming. If we think about it from a moral stance, what is more moral, employing a person to do mindnumbing work or free them to be creative and innovative? Machines will replace, doctors, lawyers, teacher etc. The middle class will disappear (it didn't exist 100s of years ago), but we will probably have a general class and the super rich. Nikola you had an interview with a guy who talking about zero marginal cost, and this will be fundamental in the future. Labour costs will be eliminated and it will free up people. Governments will have to decide whether to pay people to be creative or face unrest.

What a great interview indeed. I just love how these interviews mix into real conversations.

Marshall Brain is brilliant and a genius! He gave us a great blue print in his Australian Project society in the Manna story.

1:02:24 Marshall Brain: We as a society would need to redesign the economy to understand that we can all either be on greatly reduced work schedules or straight up on perpetual vacation and make that happen. Socrates: So full time employment would be 10 work hours a week? Marshall: That’s one very logical conclusion. And if you go back to economists in the 1920s, 30s, 40s that’s exactly what they expected.

Consciousness is a funny one.. Everyone agrees it exists but it has never been measured. There is no physical evidence it exists! I think it is highly speculative to say we will be bale to create consciousness, given we cant even measure it! I don't know why people seem to think that consciousness is essential for a thinking machine anyway. It doesn't have to 'experience' anything to be highly intelligent. I'm not convinced my consciousness contributes to my thinking in any way, it only 'witnesses' thinking. Is a witness required for intelligence? Thanks for all your efforts Nikola, very interesting interviews!

Enjoyed the whole interview, but Marshall's reply to the questions at 1:09:40 and 1:10:25 are the money shot. Great work all around! I am hopeful.

Fantastic interview. Really enjoyed watching this and hearing his thoughts.. :)

Damn, he's a heavy breather

It really sucks that HBP collapsed. If they would've ignored the neuroscientists' protest and continued with the original goal, even if they don't completely succeed in simulating the human brain, we would've learned valuable knowledge about how the human brain work.

Dont know when this video was published, but I am sure that these two gentlmen are encouraged by the basic income movement which is starting to gather real momentum. IE, in the summer of 2017 the Hawaiian state legislature unanimously passed an initiative to study the implementation of a basic income for its residents. This is in addition to large scale experiments taking place in Europe and Canada. There is hope!

I think its pretty likely to end in an economic system similiar to "free2play" with free2use. Everybody will get all the basic stuff we need to live but there will be special vanity items for status who needs to be earned. and there will be probably a lot of jobs in the entertainment sector, because individualism cant be reproduced by the general AI

50:27 has a fantastic explanation for the current state of affairs :)

Marshall Brain is like the jovial uncle I wish I had

3 years later, computer vision is already really good. But as the people in the field know, actually doing tasks in the real world is still hard. Something like Baxter can do some of it, but not yet very fine motor skills. Just a matter of time I guess.

So many things! But I think that's a very optimistic point of view for our future. I mean , that could slowly happen in first world countries but I think it would take a lot of time to be spread world wide. And for that , we should first change the way we live and consume in order to preserve earth. As Marshall said , leave this planet is not an option. We could do something to live in space or perhaps in Mars but it's far from happening. The other thing is like Nikola was saying , the quadrillion processes that take place in our brains , are not the only thing that makes the differences. And we still have a long way to understand our own brains. I think we will start to interact more and more with Als and robots, but it will take a very long time until they evolve to that Second Intelligent Species. And if that ever happens I guess we can't not know if they would exterminate us. If they are so much advenced , they could see our importance in nature somehow in way that we just can't see. Anyway , that was an awesome interview. Congratulations for the channel , and thanks for bringing up these kind of questions to us! (Sorry about the bad english!)

Personally, i'm not very optimistic that the SIngularity will happen by 2045. I only hope we will have advances in life extension technologies by that time. Self-driving cars are very cool too. Great interview btw.

"That would be an illusion." THIS ENTIRE THING IS ALREADY AN ILLUSION bro! It'd be no different to have our own ideal universe.. because that's already what we're living in! We're in an infinity of bubble realms that don't really exist, that appear and disappear spontaneously. It's no different once we take it one step further interior. Happiness itself is an illusion because there is nothing to grasp, nothing to hold onto. We are already all happy even when we are in horrific suffering. Infinity is a paradox. Nothing ever changes.

Good Interview. A couple of things that I did question. Wouldn't we be more than cockroaches if we were merged with the machines? From what I gathered from the talks it seems like a world where humans aren't enhanced. Humans remain natural, but their environment around them turns from making suggestions to enforcing it's ideal solution on humanity. There's also an assumption that General A.I. turns from tool to self-aware entity. I honestly don't know what's more dangerous when it comes to an aware or unaware A.I --both still having vast computational capabilities. There's also the argument that humans have always used materials, or tools that extend their intellect, or physical ability.Can we control the tool from turning in to something else? It would be cool if Nikola had a site on his webpage that took suggestions on who to interview and in turn he would make comments to why it would be a good idea, or why he isn't interested interviewing them.

Sustainable population? Reasonable limitations? Is there any comparative advantage for human labor after the singularity?

This dude is high as balls!

Why is there no automated CC/Closed Captions, (or, (at the very least), an Interactive Transcript), for this? I routinely upload my videologs here on KZread and the average time it takes for Google to automatically Close Caption my work Is under an hour. And you posted this almost 250 hours ago. I can 2x the speed of this video and still comprehend it, however it will still take me >40 minutes to go through it all from beginning to end; but I will be able to retain more of it if I am able to read it, and reading through the transcript will take me (at most) all of 10 minutes. Please look into this and see what you can do, Socrates, thank you.

Why would the AIs separate us from the rest of nature. Are Humans not just wildlife to them ?

@autohmae

6 жыл бұрын

Wildlife lives in balance with nature, humans do not.

I wonder if Marshel brain has read the short story "The gentle seduction" I bet he would really enjoy that.

@toli000

9 жыл бұрын

I just read it, thank u

Technological socialism is a very good perspective but in reality the transition to it might be quite painful, accompanied by social unrest, and it could last longer or shorter depending on how the regulators will react to the new challenges, like reduction of work hours and so on, plus nobody knows what will be the geopolitical map in the future, and there are countries with a lot of resources and others with not so many, and there would probably be many countries with different levels of job substitution, and taking this in consideration will there be a population control like in china now and all these raise a lot of questions

Squirrels and cockroaches irrelevant? And not conscious? I can't agree with that. It's evident that most, if not all of nature is conscious to a greater or lesser degree. In fact, it could be argued that mankind has a very distorted, if not perverted perspective of reality, and a cat, say, could have a more accurate and less corrupted perspective of reality, as the cat is not corrupted by the egoism of humans who think they are the epitome of the cosmos and the only thing of value on the planet. And you will never convince me that my cat is not a self-conscious entity! He knows when he's hungry, when he wants affection, when he's feeling threatened, ect.... Other than that rather disturbing beginning to your talk, a very good interview!

"Yes, it's absolutely fascinating" :D :D :D

There's only one problem with Marshall's analogy. Cockroaches didn't create us. It's doubtful an intelligent machine would forget who created it. Even down the line when machines can invent machines humanity would still have a status as prime mover of machine intelligence. Other than that everything he said about machines replacing us in the work force was spot on. Also the scenario with camps for humans seems odd. Why wouldn't we just integrate with nature. Maybe even an advanced intelligence would recognize the utility in allowing humans to spread out. We are also a part of nature are we not? As our natural inclinations are linked to survival perhaps intelligent machines would make room for us to choose work--as if we needed to work even though we wouldn't have to work. That work might be mostly stewardship of the planet. Sure the machines could do all the maintenance, but that might go against their all knowing logic. Anyway it's all Sciencefiction right now. For all we know machine intelligence might be neuter, and abandon Earth because of this planet's shallow well of knowledge. Or even stranger maybe their advanced intelligence would lead them to creating new biological organisms out of the current genetic material on Earth. What's to stop them from enhancing us?

@Neal_Daedalus

7 жыл бұрын

Let's say that, as a child, you could vastly exceed the capabilities of your parents. And, let's also say you developed the capability to extend the capabilities of your parents to then meet your own. Wouldn't you be motivated to do so? For example, my parents are nearing the age where, inevitably their health will decline and they will pass away. They do not want this to happen. I do not want this to happen. If I had the power, I would save them. I would restore their youth and vitality to their optimal state so that I could preserve my relationship with them throughout my life, and they with me and their other children. It would be the best outcome for our entire family. In the same way, as you say, I think it is highly likely that a second intelligent species, one that we create, will look at us just as the child that looks back fondly on his/her parents who have much more limited capabilities. And therefore, I also think it is highly likely that that child second intelligence will A.) Develop the capability to enhance its parent's intelligence to match its own and B.) Desire to do so. So I think it's much more likely that a benevolent AI (so long as it is benevolent) will bring us up to its own standard, vs. the zoo or animal preserve analogy that Marshall outlines.

@spacedoohicky

7 жыл бұрын

Daedalus 29z Good point. And it's true that that is how I look at my parents. Even with my simplistic thinking I see their age, and wish I could do something to turn back their time. Yes it's very likely that an intelligent emotional machine would take on that same role. Only the machine(s) would be able to actually do it.

At kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y3Wp0sF-kbKcaJM.htmlm54s the argument that somehow the 'Luddites' were misguided and 'everyone was better off' is short sighted. While things eventually 'ended up' better, it took quite a bit of time and quite a toll on the workforce (including starvation). www.luddites200.org.uk/theLuddites.html

Yet, what is neuroplasticity? What is consciousness that is not a forced mind consciousness through our present education system of memory focus through knowledge and information without practical application? If we men were not focused into our minds only, and retained what was educed into a mind consciousness only, as that which had a sense of space AND time, as how we learned to walk, would we men not be that you describe robots to be?

Nikola seemed a bit combatitive today but still a very interesting talk.

@ChazScott

9 жыл бұрын

Elon Darwin I watched some of Nikola's old interviews. Frank J Tipler comes to mind and he was referencing a lot of his thoughts from high physics and mathematics. It's hard to challenge these ideas if the interviewer doesn't have the background in the same field sometimes. In that interview I wished that he challenged him more. Interesting talk. I hope in the future Nikola interviews George Friedman, the author of The Next Decade, and For the next 100 years. Geopolitics and some technology predictions.

@britishpoliticalbits

8 жыл бұрын

+Elon Darwin I noticed that too, but it makes for a good interview.

@chrisf1600

8 жыл бұрын

+Elon Darwin Yes, I actually just sat down to write that exact same comment. Marshall has a lot of interesting ideas, but I found myself frustrated at the endless interruptions and rebuttals. It's like the interviewer just wants to prove that he's 'right" all the time. I wish he'd step back a bit and just let the guests talk.

@HeavyTOVids

8 жыл бұрын

+Chris F I actually thought that the Socratic method was very refreshing. Mostly interviewers don't interject themselves into an interview. This can be quite necessary, but on such a diverse topic it's interesting to see how an opinionated and knowledgeable fellow adjusts to the questioning of an even more knowledgeable fellow. It caused certain kinds of responses, and took the interview into certain kinds of places I don't think the interview could have gone to otherwise.

@spacedoohicky

8 жыл бұрын

+Elon Darwin I think Nikola is always challenging. It's more intellectually interesting that way. The answers will always be more fruitful when the questions imply a disagreement.

How would we treat cats if they where our creators ?

What's this about Markram and BlueBrain change? Perhaps my google-fu isn't strong enough..

The guy is a si-fi writer.

About prisons....ok country is not the prison, we can go further to other countries (explore earth) so great, then it means earth is prison, no we can fly outer space and explore solar system, ok then, is it solar system prison - no we can explore galaxy....then local group and so on. But in the end we are still in prison (Auschwitz) called Universe..... and there is great I think, we should't be afraid of prison, because we already in one :)

@squamish4244

8 жыл бұрын

+Lauris Freināts Well, yes, to the Buddhists this would be called "the unenlightened state". If you are enlightened, even a literal prison is freedom.

[10]

Nikola... please please please let the man talk. Good God.

@SingularityFM

8 жыл бұрын

+weezybaby226 This is what Marshal emailed to me after the interview: Nikola, I made it all the way through the video, and here are several things that really stand out: 1) The length. Wow - you covered a lot of stuff. 2) You care deeply about the subject matter. You did so much research and are extremely familiar with the whole space. 3) You add to the interview. You are not just asking questions - you are contributing, so it is a healthy conversation. 4) The length of the answers you allow. Most interview answers are either sound bites, or maybe 1 minute answers at the most. Here you are allowing big chunks of time for the answers - a real luxury. 5) The quality of the production. Again, wow. Thanks again! Marshall

@VIP-Guitar

8 жыл бұрын

+weezybaby226 - I agree, he is such a nice person, you should let your guests get into a flow, let them finish what they are talking and thinking about or keep the whole thing as a dialogue and put the script away. He was very polite and I think he could have said more in deep stuff if he would have been alloud. Still a very good talk also left me with nothing clear in my mind...

AI Winter is coming.

@HannesRadke

7 жыл бұрын

A cold environment actually is better for processors ... so it would be in an AI's self empowerment interest to make it pretty cold ;D

i want it to be a utopia. however, given what we currently have, it does look like mana is likely. we need the 2nd intelligence to help redirect us. if left to some of my republican friends starvation, death from exposure, or even a culling wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility. a minimum standard of living for all with a super ai guiding the distribution of food,water,plumbing etc.. to eliminate suffering :-)

@Neal_Daedalus

7 жыл бұрын

Republicans are not cruel and heartless people. The challenge is ensuring that they (and everyone, for that matter), see that an unemployed outcome is inevitable. The consensus tends to act logically when the truth is finally evident.

@merrick926

7 жыл бұрын

not all of them anyways :-) i agree with you but the types that i am talking about are the ones that think i am crazy just talking about truck drivers losing their jobs. cleaners, fast food workers etc.. do not deserve a living wage. they are supposed to find better jobs. those jobs are just for high school and and college kids etc.. when they see it happening itll be different i guess. i am a bit of a pessimist. im also on the other extreme. i feel everyone should be guaranteed a minimum standard of living. food,water,heat,shelter, and medical care. most wouldnt be willing to live on such a bare minimum and those that are well more power to them lol ill stop now. im in one of those writing moods :-)

@Neal_Daedalus

7 жыл бұрын

True there will be some that will always be convinced an Ayn Randian version of society will work the best, regardless of actual outcome. But I think, to Marshall's point in the interview, once a huge wave of unemployment hits suddenly, like truckers, the majority, the 'middle', will stop and reconsider. What is key is the 'suddenly' part. For the last 30 years, jobs have vanished due to automation and offshoring, but it hasn't been sudden. I agree with Marshall that most likely, the first will be trucking. I think a million jobs lost in a single year is an optimistic estimate- you also have to consider all the truck stop jobs, etc. When things suddenly happen, people take notice. It's when their is a slow drip drip drip that it becomes the acceptable 'new normal', which is what you had happen over the last 30 years. Even if it's not trucking, it will be retail, fast food restaurants, etc. It's only a matter of 'when', not 'if'. On the guaranteed standard of living- we sort of have that now. it's a very low standard of living, but its there. The homeless don't starve, they have access to homeless shelters (given, they're not great, and you have to share them with others who could be mentally unstable), and when they need emergency medical care, they get it. I think the goal should simply be to raise this minimum standard over time. Robots will certainly help. The challenge is, when you need people to do it, it needs to be paid for. With robotics and automation, the only costs are maintenance and energy, of which will continue to drop over time. So I think we'll get there with a much better social safety net, but the key is reducing cost through technology. That doesn't require a political solution to implement.

The robot AI will treat us the way we treat ants. Stay outside and don't build any mounds or bite anyone bigger than you.

Ok. Marshall $250,000,000 dollar man. You first...Give away all your wealth and land........I'll follow.....😉

Machines are not a species.

@MyLittleMagneton

9 жыл бұрын

David Walsh not yet.

@nickilovesdogs8137

8 жыл бұрын

+David Walsh Whales and dolphins are smarter than humans. Machines will be even smarter. Worms are the most important species because they recycle everything.

@david8157

8 жыл бұрын

Nicki LovesDogs Whales & dolphins are living creatures, conscious and intelligent like we are. I doubt dolphin are more intelligent than humans. Certainly they give no sign of it. Compared to humans who produce so much creativity. Machines will never be conscious or intelligent in the way humans or dolphins are. I understand you singularity fantasists disagree; on the basis of a sort of religious belief in the promissory note given you by your gurus that ONE DAY very soon your computer god will come. I will accept it..... IF I see it if it actually happens Meantime I personally regard it as fantasy like the fantasy that any day now Jesus will be coming back on a cloud or the alien gods will be landing on the Whitehouse lawn etc That's the category I put it into

@nickilovesdogs8137

8 жыл бұрын

David Walsh I believe that whales and dolphins are smarter. Some species are. Humpback whales and Blue whales are definitely much more intelligent than humans. Their living medium is just very different and therefore they developed different skills. But they found the highest number in percentage of spindle cells in the brains of Humpback whales and Blue Whales and also Macrocephalus whales.

@david8157

8 жыл бұрын

Nicki LovesDogs Other than some comments about brain tissue, what proof or even signs of greater intelligence that humans in whales can you offer? Or is this just something you choose to believe? What you said about worms being more important than humans leads me to think that you are perhaps one of those who dislike the human race and maybe even think the Earth would be better off without us. Am I on or off the mark there?

Argh, can we have a single episode without a reference to Stuart Hameroff ? It's excruciating. The man believes that our brains our tapping into a universal field of primal consciousness, like radio receivers. If that's true (which I highly, highly doubt), it leads to a dead end - why bothering studying brains or consciousness at all ? We might as well just wave our hands and say that god did it. It's quantum woo of the worst sort.

@squamish4244

8 жыл бұрын

+Chris F Brains are still very important in his model (and it's not just Hameroff - it's Penrose), because the brain still transmits the data. Is a radio worth fixing if it's damaged? Or course. It's not quantum woo woo, it's an expanding area of science that isn't going away anytime soon. "God did it" is also the furthest thing from what they are saying. More like "I don't want to hear this, so I'll conflate these guys with religious nutjobs." Assuming everything is material and ignoring evidence that suggests otherwise is a dead-end to me.

I like the fucking idea of trump tower like super city. Can we please do this? put all the future 11 billion people into my state and build trump towers everywhere. #Donaldtrump2016.

Did he just fart at 1:07:08 ?

@apostolapostolov5247

9 жыл бұрын

I thought so too..lolz

I have been closely following Marshall Brain and vehemently agree with his position - but seriously the poor guy is dying. He needs to lose weight, he is breathing and groaning near asthmatic in the microphone.

@JohnDoe-go7tc

4 жыл бұрын

Too much coke

This guy sounds like a second grader and needs to exercise he won't be around to see the singularity.

@supervibetrucker5570

2 жыл бұрын

Totally

I think this guy is totally off base. First off how can cockroaches or squirrels or any animals be irrelevant? Each creature, mineral, plant etc. has a definitive place in the complexity and wonder of our universe. There's a perfectly synchronized system at work here which is why every single element has its place. Then he goes on to say that humans are the only known intelligent life force in the universe. What the heck drug is he on? That's so small minded and blind sighted. So because he hasn't seen other life forms they don't exist? That's similar to the 15th C. theory that the earth was flat.

@ianyboo

6 жыл бұрын

Elise Krentzel the modifier of "known" is important there. You are reacting as if he didn't clearly say "the only form if intelligence known" He left it wide open for the potential Discovery of other intelligent beings in the future