My dad's boss was a bombardier in B-17s in WWII. For his 60th birthday, my parents found somewhere (this was in the days before eBay or even the Web in general) an old Norden sight. They wrapped it up and gave it to him as a gift. He was stunned, and genuinely appreciated it and treasured it for the rest of his life - it lived in his office at IBM until he retired a bit after my dad, and then was in his den at home. But he also just friggin' fell apart, bursting into tears when they gave it to him. Brought back a ton of memories, some good, most bad. But we are at least partly the product of our experiences, and as I said he DID appreciate it and considered it quite the thoughtful gift.

@slabgizor1176

5 жыл бұрын

Where is it now?

@mickeydrago9401

5 жыл бұрын

Cool story, Neato... Yet I would say we should have joined the Nazis in defeating Russia in Finland and Russia overall... But it was too late when France and England declared war first...

@mickeydrago9401

5 жыл бұрын

@SaveBlueEyes Great post as you know some history but I will have to look up Pearson... I remember some news report of this guy that didn't like what his kids were being taught so you went through an entire history book and then printed it up all the mistakes and lies and whatnot and he had it printed all-in-one long sheet of paper that rolled down several steps of a staircase to illustrate what I believe is political correctness and multicultural Marxist lies written into our history and maybe just stupid scholarship with no real agenda in mind I remember my dad talking about the NEA years ago which is the National Education Association I think and he mentioned that it was not always this politically correct Lefty publication or organization as I was reading the publication out loud and commenting on what a lefty rag it was My brother gets it because he is a teacher and pathetically enough a lefty one

@jamieh4523

5 жыл бұрын

That’s a weird tale. Your uncles caused their parents to meet?

@johnemerson1363

4 жыл бұрын

In the mid 70's I had an opportunity to buy a complete Nordon bomb sight for $600.00. I needed a couple of hours to get it. When I got back, someone beat me to it. I still regret that.

My high-school physics teacher was a bombardier during WWII. HE OWNED A nordin Bomb sight and brought it to school. It had more gears than 20 Swiss watches. It took a gifted person to use one of them.

Doctor Gatling invented his gun in the hope that it would be so devastating as to make war unthinkable. That didn't work either.

@phlushphish793

4 жыл бұрын

That's what Tecumseh Sherman thought during the Civil War.

@carlcushmanhybels8159

4 жыл бұрын

Likewise, Maxim thought with his invention of the Machine Gun, and Alfred Nobel thought his invention of Dynamite would surely be so obviously devastating as to make war unthinkable. When Dynamite did not end wars, instead they got worse, Alfred Nobel created the Nobel Prizes, esp the Nobel Peace Prize. Not until the H-bomb did a weapon make war so obviously, unwinnably horrible, that people thought twice and thrice and stopped doing super-huge mega-wars. So far.

@johncoffey1208

4 жыл бұрын

@@carlcushmanhybels8159 Syria is destroyed and millions of people are displaced. War continues. Someday it will include nuclear weapons.

@carlcushmanhybels8159

4 жыл бұрын

@@johncoffey1208 True, but See above: My comment about nuclear deterent --so far (through MAD), (despite previous weapon inventors thinking surely their weapon was so horrible that would stop wars,) "Not until H-bombs... That people thought twice and thrice and stopped doing super-huge mega-wars. So far."

@johncoffey1208

4 жыл бұрын

@@carlcushmanhybels8159 I just think that those inventors were wrong to think they'd invent a weapon to stop war. Weapons are used in war to win. Nuclear weapons are used in the same way.

He highlighted a critical point---the most crucial arrow in your quiver is not advanced Tech--but advanced INFORMATION and Advanced quality of JUDGEMENT!!

@WeMustResist

5 жыл бұрын

Yes . Roe - that was a good point to make. Strange that he padded his good point with so much adolescent posturing. 15 minutes of kiddy talk and 3 seconds of wisdom.

@codacreator6162

4 жыл бұрын

STEM gave us nuclear weapons. Philosophy has kept us from using them. But, we don't need the liberal arts anymore. Consider the consequences of that.

@josephaether377

4 жыл бұрын

I've, forever, felt like much of our military budget, as Americans, should be spent less on kinetic weaponry of conventional war (that's unlikely to happen) and more on intelligence (primary focus), economic approaches, and even exploration of nontraditional creative campaigning. edit: maybe we should, also, just keep an eye on defensive interception of hypersonic ballistic missiles.

@danielsanichiban

4 жыл бұрын

It's all these things. Advanced tech without the information and better judgement is the real problem

@Slowhand871

4 жыл бұрын

And intel is rarely accurate. Defense spending is largely a complete waste of money.

My father would always talk about the Norden bombsight with his friends. And a lot of other things like a cashless society, which my father said would never happen but still, they discussed it. I wished that I had listened more. He knew soo much stuff.

@PurpleMomgoose

Жыл бұрын

I felt that :/

@MyMeade12

Жыл бұрын

Amen to that.

@richiehoyt8487

9 ай бұрын

I hope you'll forgive me 'necroposting', not to mention that I'm probably missing the point of what you're saying, but in practice we have all but _become_ a cashless society! I mean, it does depend on where you live; as with Google Streetview, the Germans, I'm told, are rather lairy of 'cashless' (and, if so, good for them!) Where I live (Rep. of Ireland) cash has, in effect, become something you keep a little of, in case you need to buy a newspaper ("what're they?!") from a street vendor, or in case the vending machine at work goes 'on the Fritz') or in actuality, for the most part, the 'good deed for the day' Euro or two you toss your local homeless person. And the last time I checked (2 or 3 years ago), usage of cash in some of the Nordic countries was well down in to single figure percentages! You may have gathered that I am uncomfortable to say the least about these developments, but that is probably something better left for another thread! As to your father's commentaries, I don't know whether it would be better to say that on this point he was mistaken (no "Na Na Nyah Nyah Nah" implied!) -- or that, by the very fact that he spitballed on the subject, he was actually way ahead of the curve compared to most people on the subject of a cashless society. [EDIT: Notwithstanding of course, the fact that I never knew him!] I would be inclined to say that the latter was the case.

When he starts talking about using the bombsight in actual battle conditions I can't help but think of Yossarian...

Actually despite "booby trapping" the Norden Bomb Site, the U.S. Army Air Corps was still very afraid of what would happen if the Germans got their hands on one from a downed American plane. So they had a rescue squad that went after planes carrying these sights to retrieve them. And I'm proud to say my father was one of those rescuers in North Africa!

@geeeeeee3

2 ай бұрын

Germans had one they found in a bomber back in 43. They tested it and didn't think much of it. When the RAF got one they thought little of it as well.

The proximity fuse was another big technology breakthrough. The Pacific War would have been much worse without it.

Quick correction: The most expensive US program during WWII was the B-29 at $3B. This includes development, production infrastructure, and the planes. The Manhattan Project cost $2B - about 90% of which was spent on Oak Ridge and Hanford.

@willboudreau1187

Жыл бұрын

No kidding, but facts make no difference to the retards in the historical revision business, alas.

@billsmith5109

8 ай бұрын

The Manhattan project cost much more than $2B. The cleanup project at Hanford Nuclear Reservation still continues. Until complete we won’t know the final cost. I doubt it will be complete in the first hundred years after the Manhattan Project started.

Why didn't they just drop pickle barrels with bombs already in them?

@isupaman

5 жыл бұрын

yeah..it would suck to have to eat blown up pickles all the time..

@BobSmith-dk8nw

5 жыл бұрын

Oh ... you didn't hear about that? Well you see there was this Strike by the Copper Miners who were breaking the War Regulations Act by doing so but - when the warrant was issued to arrest the striking copper workers - there was a typo. They spelled Copper - Cooper. The end result was that it was all the barrel makers who were arrested and sent to prison - unless they volunteered to serve in the army - and hence the lack of pickle barrels. This shortage resulted in the creation of the ubiquitous 55 Gallon Drum that is seen to this day all over the world - but which being an industrial product doesn't require the efforts of a craftsman to produce it. .

@tombonomy

5 жыл бұрын

I’m cracking up here

@alanhays9111

5 жыл бұрын

I didn't know the pickle barrels were so important.

@PAVANZYL

5 жыл бұрын

That would have left everyone in a pickle, I suppose...

This was, I think, an excellent talk. But aside from its main point, it also solves a mystery for me. My favorite movie ever to come out of Hollywood is "The Best Years of Our Lives," in which Dana Andrews is a former bombardier with the Army Air Corps. Now, with the war over, he is interviewing for jobs. And, when asked whether he had experience in the military that would serve him in the civilian world, he sums up his experience as "four years behind a Norden Bombsight." For years, I've wondered what a *Norden* Bombsight was--and now I know.

Thank you for sharing your heartsong Malcolm Gladwell. Aho Mitakuye Oyasín. Pilama. Onshimalayo.

Drugstore Manager: "What are your qualifications? Your experience?" Fred Derry: "Two years behind a soda fountain, three years behind a Norden bombsight." -- The Best Years of Our Lives (1946)

@c3aloha

4 жыл бұрын

I know one thing! I can learn just like I learned that job up there! Fred Derry

@AnhTrieu90

4 жыл бұрын

If he served in the European theatre, then his three years as a bombardier could be translated as "I'm incredibly lucky."

Enola Gay did not drop a "thermo nuclear" bomb. Little boy was a uranium gun-type fission bomb. The thermo nuclear bomb designed by Teller and Ulam was only developed in 1951. Minor technical detail perhaps, but still faults like that always makes me question all the spoken facts that I don't already know about.

@oali2338

6 жыл бұрын

trefod Forrest or the trees. Look at the bigger picture.

@massivereader

6 жыл бұрын

Eh. Kind of a blah lecture, aside from the theatrics. It doesn't take much insight of any kind to understand and point out the law of unintended consequences and the law of diminishing returns using hindsight. Which our politicians and military admittedly regularly ignore or dismiss because of various ideological motivations. This is more about inculating leftist anti-military politics piggybacked on a few jejune observations. Aside from that, the lecturer is impressed with his own peraspicity to an unagreeable extent.

@jennysaranac4454

6 жыл бұрын

"Which our politicians and military admittedly regularly ignore or dismiss because of various ideological motivations." Grammar much?

@jonhohensee3258

6 жыл бұрын

Details are important, Osman.

@kaiwalling73

5 жыл бұрын

"The lecturer is impressed with his own peraspicity to an unagreeable extent," said the guy with the screen name, "massive reader," who misspelled two out of the three hundred-dollar words he had unnecessarily deployed in his youtube comment. If you are intellectually honest, you will be willing to consider that it is your reading of this lecture that is jejune, tinted by an ideological animosity towards those phenomena to which you apply the term "leftist."

I do not know if Carl Norden’s heart would have been broken or not. I suspect that unless he asked him Mr. Gladwell doesn’t know either. I do know that countless children of WW2 veterans who did not have to invade Japan are thankful to Mr Norden and the other geniuses who saved countless allied lives through their inventions.

@anthonymonge7815

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you. While the device did allow precision destruction, in the end it saved lives.

@michaeldelyjah5696

Жыл бұрын

That's weird logic. He's making that statement based on Norden's speeches, writings, and talks with others. If he was telling how he truly felt, you don't need to ask directly. If he was lying in his speeches, writings, and talks, why wouldn't he just keep lying if you asked him directly?

@paulsmith9868

Жыл бұрын

It seems that he has an agenda rather than the reality that we faced at the time. Missing by 800 ft is a lot better than losing half a million allied lives, not to mention the number of Japanese lives.

@geniusiknowit

Жыл бұрын

Japan surrendered because Russia declared war on them.

@anthonymonge7815

Жыл бұрын

@@AJ-fo2pl just out of curiosity, how well have you studied their culture? How well have you took a deep introspect into all of the machinations that were going on at that time? I have spent over 2 decades in the study of it. If you wish to poke holes in my statement, feel free. You will need to come with competent sources. When I say it saved lives, it did. In a nutshell, if the island was invaded, the carnage would have been extreme. Far worse than it was. It also has saved lives after the effect. All people now know how devastating those weapons are. That is a main reason they are not used. If you believe me to be brainwashed, that is your prerogative. Please back it up.

My first job as engineer was working in a plant which was spun off of Norden. We didn't make weapons, we made industrial senors. My boss was a German Jew who escaped the Nazis when he was 18, and served with the U.S. Army in the Pacific. He had worked at the old Norden facility. His first boss at Norden was a German engineer who worked for a German bombsight manufacturer during the war. His German boss said he had a Norden bombsight on his desk all through the War. He was not very impressed with it. Regardless, the criticisms of the Norden Bombsight are almost as overwrought and preposterous as its proponents claims. It was an effective machine that forced the Germans to maintain a huge air defense establishment at a very steep cost. The 2,000,000 Luftwaffe personnel defending against bombing raids, and the millions of tons of ammunition fired could have been put to effective use on the Eastern Front. (The Luftwaffe estimated that it took 6000 tons of ammunition to shoot down one bomber. About 50,000 US Airmen died over Germany during the War.) The accuracy of the Norden Bombsight required the Germans to muster strong air defenses, otherwise the Allies would have attacked at 15,000 ft on straight and level courses, like they did over Japan. The Eighth U.S. Army Air Force made its target the city of Berlin in 1943. By that time, with the advent of the P-51 Mustang, German fighters would not rise to meet American air raids, except against Berlin. The purpose of the raids was not to drop bombs on Berlin, it was to destroy the Luftwaffe fighter forces. And they were extremely successful in that endeavor. Air superiority was a prerequisite for a successful invasion of Europe. Without the attacks on Berlin, in which the people of Berlin and the 8th USAAF bomber crews were live bait, the landing of Anglo-American (and Canadian!) forces in France would not have been possible. The alternative to the Anglo-American landings would have been a Europe in the Hands of either Hitler or Stalin. There is no third choice. Gratitude is too much to expect in this world, but some people (e.g, Swiss, Swedes, Eurotwits in general) might at least be a little more restraint in their smirking.

@thegeneralist7527

5 жыл бұрын

Every statement above is FALSE

@beachcomber2008

5 жыл бұрын

But less false than yours.@@thegeneralist7527

@thegeneralist7527

5 жыл бұрын

@@beachcomber2008 I've studied Luftwaffe air defenses and the allied bombing campaign extensively. The British led Commonwealth strategic bombing campaign was much more effective because they had learned the hard lessons earlier in the war about the dangers of daylight bombing. The British also learned from their poor results at precision bombing and switched to area bombing, developing pathfinder tactics for target marking, developed electronic navigation aids and countermeasures and many other innovations. The British used their advanced radar in tandem with their sophisticated fighter control network to win the Battle of Britain. Conversely, the German Kammhuber Line air defense system was flawed and vulnerable to being overwhelmed by massed bomber streams. The British shared this information with the US, but the American's blind belief in their daylight precision bombing doctrine and the Norden bombsight resulted in severe mauling by the Luftwaffe until long-range fighter escorts became available. Even as late in the war as the Battle of Berlin the German's were still able to inflict heavy and unsustainable casualties upon both the RAF and the USAAF. The point I would like to make is that this like many other subjects is much more nuanced than a cursory glance would suggest. The Norden bomb-sight was USELESS if you could not see the target because of cloud, as was often the case, especially after the first bombs had been dropped and smoke obscured the target. Let me put it this way, the comment I am criticizing MAY be accurate from an engineering point of view but that it is entirely inaccurate from a historical point of view.

@beachcomber2008

5 жыл бұрын

@@thegeneralist7527 I liked and enjoyed your second post, and your analysis agrees with mine, historically, and in engineering terms. Perhaps you shouldn't live up quite so closely to your handle. You seem to be agreeing with the OP here - and yet you call it false. Duh.

@thegeneralist7527

5 жыл бұрын

What is your analysis historically, and in engineering terms? I do not agree with the OP.

The bombs in Japan were not thermonuclear. A thermonuclear weapon is a two stage device where a nuclear explosion heats a central core which then produces a hydrogen burn. The weapons dropped on Japan were just nuclear. Thermonuclear was not invented for more than 10 years after.

@Niragan

5 жыл бұрын

If they used a thermonuclear bomb then the whole city would be vaporized. Thermonuclear bomb is somewhat 20-100x more powerful than a nuclear bomb.

@harvey364

5 жыл бұрын

It was not "more than 10 years after." Check your history -- it was developed in 1951-1952, which is much less than 10 years after August 1945.

@Dutchgraves

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks,... Einstein

@dwtees

5 жыл бұрын

The atomic bomb did reduce pain and suffering. It prevented a land invasion to Japan in which millions of soldiers on our side and their side would have died. The fire bombs dropped on Japan before the atomic bomb killed many more people then both nuclear bombs and we wont mention how many soldiers and civilians of our country and other countries were killed by the Japanese during WW2 . It would not have broken Norden's heart if he knew his bomb sight was used to drop the atomic bombs. It vindicated his invention because it did what it was intended to do.

@barsoom43

5 жыл бұрын

Douglas Tees.... You know your history.. You are either self-educated or you were educated before Carter federalized the public schools and reduced education to the lowest common denominator. Thank you for your comments. It is refreshing..

Malcolm is usually much more logical than this. Gladwell himself acknowledges that Norden was motivated by the philosophy that more precise and devastating weapon would ultimately reduce overall suffering, death and length of a war. 70k people were killed in Hiroshima. Estimates were that without it the war would have lasted 1-2 years longer at a cost of millions more lives. I think that tradeoff fits Norden’s philosophy perfectly, therefore would have received Norden’s approval.

@ytubeanon

3 ай бұрын

+1 exactly what I was thinking

So, Mr.Gladwell called Carl Norden Swiss, when he is Dutch, mispronounces bombardier, and calls Strike Eagles the Fighter Eagle. This doesn't mean his point is wrong, but it makes it harder to believe that he has thought about them thoroughly enough when basic parts of the speech make you think "wait, what?".

@DragNetJoe

5 жыл бұрын

It's a safe bet that when you know 3-5 facts that are clearly wrong, there are a bunch of other facts that you may not have personal knowledge of that are also wrong. Gladwell churns out a yarn to illustrate some point, but does so in a fundamentally dishonest way. He gets more than little details wrong, because if he got those details right his story would no longer support his position. He tells a story of how wet sidewalk causes rain, then tells us all that we should water the sidewalk from time to time to ensure the crops come in.

@prybarknives

5 жыл бұрын

Another point of interest, the scud bombing campaign was assumed to have of little chance of success, but was carried out to placate the neighboring countries who were worried about the equally inaccurate scuds...

@jimhughes1962

5 жыл бұрын

who2u333 ~ If those three essentially insignificant things are your point of focus, then you completely missed the point.

@Mortlupo

5 жыл бұрын

@@prybarknives When they are firing them at whole cities of civilians, they don't need to be all that accurate.

@prybarknives

5 жыл бұрын

@@Mortlupo, instead of just assuming, look up facts, tell me how many casualties came to outside interests, from scud attacks... I'll wait.

Carl van Linden wasn't Swiss, but a Dutch engineer, born in the Dutch East Indies, but trained & educated in Switzerland.

@johnstuart5437

5 жыл бұрын

Hence, a Swiss Engineer. A Swiss engineer who happened to be of Dutch citizenship. But his engineering was definitely Swiss.

@BuddyNutcracker

4 жыл бұрын

He was Dutch, hello... Just because you went to Switzerland for a while doesn't make you Swiss

@johnkressel638

4 жыл бұрын

Wonder where Carl Norden was from??

@captainoblivious_yt

4 жыл бұрын

@@johnstuart5437 That makes no fucking sense. If you're born in the Netherlands or a colony of the netherlands to dutch parents, you're dutch. You don't become swiss just because you live there.

@grendlsma

4 жыл бұрын

@@captainoblivious_yt He went back to Switzerland after the war and lived the rest of his life there. So he spent most of his adult life in Switzerland. Easy mistake to make....

For many years I worked in the computer software industry. If there was ever an industry beset by Norden bombsights that was it.

@Defenestrationflight

5 жыл бұрын

This app will change the life of about one million people rich enough to use it to its full extent!

I use to love spaghetti. I used to work with B61's and B57's. Now Spaghetti sauce and nuclear weapons are forever entangled. I wont be able to think of one without the other. On the plus side I did go ketogenic over a year ago, so no more spaghetti for me at least.

One of my favourite public speakers and a phenomenal storyteller. Clever, eloquent and as good an orator as he is a writer. Just a proper legend.

When I started as a Skydiving Photographer, the best piece of equipment was this sight. It allowed me to center the falling jumpers into my cameras & video, whether I was flat & stable, pointed head-down or filming on my back...

A long time ago, went to visit the Los Alamos museum and they had (at least that's what the sign said) the Norden bombsight from the Enola Gay on display. It sent a chill down my spine when I looked through it! Great talk.

Thanks very much for this fascinating story and the explanation about the high cost and failure rate of the Norden bombsight. It was interesting to also note that after the many drone strikes this has had a tenfold increase in the number of attacks (suicide attacks etc) on western forces. Similarly the destruction of Afghanistans opium crops has resulted in 4 or 5 times the opium output. It certainly makes you wonder if perhaps instead of the billions that the west has spent on destroying the Taliban and the Iraqi war machine, if we had spent that money buying up all the opium crops, building up the infrastructure of the two countries, dams, schools, electricity generating and water treatment plants and roads etc would we be in the global fight against terrorism that we are today in 2018 and would we be living in a safer world? Perhaps not, but it was a nice thought.

@TransoceanicOutreach

Жыл бұрын

You're talking as if the Taliban are reasonable people; they are religious extremeists who have no problem with killing anyone who doesn't agree with them. If you built a nice school for girls they would destroy it, same with anything else. You can't change their mind with money, they are living for the next life, not this one.

@jimmorrison4291

Жыл бұрын

I don't think that the creation of prosperous, independent nations in the Middle East was quite in line with The West's aims over the last 70 years. Broken, struggling countries that tow the line are much more useful. A few terrorist attacks are inconsequential compared to the geopolitical benefits.

@martinomichael4967

Жыл бұрын

@@jimmorrison4291 you're not wrong there bro, pity those geopolitical aims benefited only 3% of the population

@ronschellhas9461

Жыл бұрын

@@martinomichael4967 I have to agree with you. Not much of the money and benefits got down to the lower levels of society in either country. But one thing I know for sure... Cheney's Halliburton walked away with over $$$ 40 BILLION $$$ IN NO BID CONTRACT PROFITS $$$$$ It's ALWAYS about the money!!!

@generic3725

Жыл бұрын

Brilliant!😊

One of my peeves is someone talking with authority about something they don't know themselves. Since everyone is piling on with mistakes they have found I'll point out that at 11:00 he describes a Scud missile as surface to air rather than correctly as a ballistic missile. Don't forget that this talk was likely reviewed by a committee that didn't know the facts either.

@vinyldeane3346

5 жыл бұрын

I wouldn’t say he’s talking with authority he’s just telling a story

@funkyalfonso

5 жыл бұрын

G.Fisher Also to nitpic, he said thermo-neuclear instead of nuclear.

@joshflinty4376

5 жыл бұрын

Surface to air, surface to surface - doesn’t matter. They were killing people and had to be destroyed.

@amariner5

Жыл бұрын

This is not uncommon with Gladwell. His audience knows books, and academia, and they forgive his knowledge gaps.

@WayneLynch69

Жыл бұрын

@@amariner5 I recently finished his "Talking to Strangers"...and have read others His rigor appears unimpresive. It suggests he looks for a "hook" and runs "somewhere".

The nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima was not a thermonuclear weapon, but rather a fission device. This was a great lecture on the foolishness of any idea of "humane war." Definitely sharing.

@oceanic8424

Жыл бұрын

Gladwell often takes a certain amount of dramatic license with his facts during his talks for dramatic effect. The problematic is that because of who he is, sometimes ppl that don't know better, take his talks as 100% factual.

Malcolm is giving me sweet calm highschool teach gently explaining concepts I should already know, abruptly mixed with irate dinner guest who I know through a friend I met at a Portland arts collective.

Minor technical point: Scud missiles are not surface-to-air. They're short-range ballistic missiles. 10:55

@scottleft3672

5 жыл бұрын

Surface to suface....ballistic....and he clearly knows nothing about Iron Dome....or doesn't want us to know.

@johngreen4610

5 жыл бұрын

Also that wasn't a thermonuclear bomb "twas a nuclear bomb. This idiot doesn't know what he is talking about.

@CharlesPayne

5 жыл бұрын

Really effective Speaker, however I think his stats on the number of launchers destroyed is off. Having been there, when the first Scuds were sent at the Coalition and the Raytheon Patriot system was used to counter them, I can tell you a tale that seems to make sense. Based on my experience seems to be true. I was in the chow line one day talking to some guys that operated the patriot battery that was protecting the area. Those guys said if we wanted , we could have jammed all the launchers, as we controlled the air (We did.) We had planes constantly monitoring the entire country waiting for launches. Plus there was a lucrative opportunity for Raytheon to prove it's system and make sales to Israel, Kuwait ,Saudi Arabia ,Turkey etc.. These guys said they needed live tests, and the US wanted to kill the mobile launching platforms, so the missiles were allowed to be launched. The circling F-16's and other fighters would then see the launch and swoop in to kill the mobile launcher. I was younger and very sceptical, thinking "No way our government would allow such a thing." Two days later, we got orders to move some equipment form the port to our forward staging position. It was a bright hot day and I had to urinate, so I found a nice dry spot in the Dessert. As I was admiring the surroundings, in the distance a missile was launched and it was heading back towards the port. A few seconds later an F16 about 100 feet off the deck broke the sound barrier over me heading toward where the missile was launched from. I was knocked down and of course urine was everywhere and I couldn't hear, but I kept my eyes on the fighter. In the distance there was an explosion. Again, I can only give you my experience, but I think we did get 1 launcher. All I could say was OMG it's true.

@elmospasco5558

4 жыл бұрын

@@CharlesPayne It seemed a pretty effective tactic. To my knowledge the only casualties the SCUD missile inflicted during that conflict were to about a dozen or so support troops from the (since de-activated} 1st COSCOM. There's a small memorial monument by one of the "dining" facilities in their former area.

@CharlesPayne

4 жыл бұрын

@@elmospasco5558 I do know we were back at the port waiting on more equipment and stayed at a hanger with a reserve unit from PA, I think. We left the next morning with equipment heading to the front. About a week later we got some news papers and saw where a scud dropped that was hit by patriots fell on the hanger and killed the folks we met. It's been a long time, but I found this article article that has similar details to the one we read. www.nytimes.com/1991/02/26/world/war-in-the-gulf-scud-attack-scud-missile-hits-a-us-barracks-killing-27.html . We were eating and bunking with those folks the night before they died . The patriots were designed to hit the SCUD before the warhead armed, but the collateral fallout was dangerous. I recall seeing large a piece of of a SCUD that hit a town called hafar al batin (I think ) it was over 1/4 inch thick and about 5 feet long. Looked like it had russian writing on it.

My uncle, Commander and Naval aviator (later Admiral) Austen V. Magly, Annapolis Class of 1924, was chosen as Norden's aide for awarding the multitude of contracts to U.S. industries, small and large, for the intricate, extremely sensitive components of the bombsight.

I’ve spent a lot of time in Silicon Valley listening to very smart people who will tell you all the things they CAN do, but will never discuss whether they SHOULD do them.

@TheMargarita1948

Жыл бұрын

That’s where you and I come in.

Two assumptions in the closing statement which are probably wrong; 1) that the Norden site did not reduce suffering when dropping "the bomb" - evidence says it did 2) Norden would have been devastated - his goal was achieved on a grand scale so I think not!

@Marika50

5 жыл бұрын

There are some reports saying that there are instanves were bombs are dropped in areas were they could not even tell if the individuals being bombed are involved in terorist activity. So yes there still are cases were inosent lives are lost with no proff if they were anywhere neer someone who was threat to begin with.

@Defenestrationflight

5 жыл бұрын

But it really didnt. Strategic bombing was notoriously inaccurate, the inclusion of the norden sight had miniscule effect.

@smudge503

5 жыл бұрын

WE in the USA kill many innocent people all over the world with our 62 cents out of every tax dollar war machine! GET SMART MARIKA!!!!

@samuelclemons6821

4 жыл бұрын

@@smudge503ear Judy...you might want to get your facts somewhere other than You Tube...defense is less than 16% of the federal budget.

This is similar to the New York Times in 1897 referring to Hiram Maxim's machine gun in these words: "They are peace-producing and peace-retaining terrors." NEVER underestimate humankind's ability to misuse anything.

The Norden bombsight was last used in combat during Vietnam by Navy squadron VO-67. My father was commander of crew 8. Their mission was to drop acoustic sensors along the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos and Cambodia, which was top secret because operations there were denied by the US. They supported the Khe Sanh siege, aiding targeting by artillery and air to ground attack planes. They received a Presidential Unit Citation in 1994 after the mission was declassified.

@oceanic8424

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting. What can you tell us about these acoustic sensors (listening devices)? How were they designed to survive the drop into the bush? How long could they operate for with the batteries built-in? What data did they send back? This was before GPS, so that alone would be interesting. How sensitive were they?

This is the second TED talk I've seen him give, I have yet to watch the spaghetti sauce one. The first was about David and Goliath. While TED talks are supposed to make us think out of the box and "thinking outside the box" is important. I also know that to encourage that we have to use truth. He makes several mistakes in this talk, but his premise is that things don't make us happy or to improve out lives. His tries to drive home his point by telling us that how tragic it was that the man who invented this amazing bomb sight didn't accomplish his goals, which was to save lives and make wars shorter and less costly in lives and materiel. The sight was the most accurate of its time and it did save lives on both sides. In fact it was around the clock bombing, the Americans in the day and the British at night, that forced the Nazi's to spend about 40% of their Luftwaffe assets, planes and AAA (Anti Aircraft Artillery a.k.a. Ack Ack and Flak) to the west rather than use it on the eastern front which would have helped the Nazi's over power the Soviets. He also makes the assumption that Mr. Norton would have been devastated had he known that his famous machine was used in the atomic bomb attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Almost EVER SINGLE pacific theater WWII veteran that I have talked to were grateful for those attacks because it brought an end to the war in Japan much quicker AND kept the Soviets from invading Japan and doing to Japan what they did to the eastern Europe. Even the Japanese that I've met who were children during the war were grateful that those bombs were dropped because they were being trained to fight allied soldiers with bamboo pikes and would have been killed in the process had the planned allied invasion happened. So my point is that if you're going to help people think outside the box, do it with truth and don't use assumptions and inaccuracies. If you make the kind of mistakes he made, ie calling medium range surface to surface missile a SAM or Surface To Air missile, will only prove you don't know what you're talking about so why should anyone believe your initial premise?

@gandolfthewhite

5 жыл бұрын

Brian Savage BOX? How about outside the pickle barrel? He is antiwar in reality.

@jacky3580

Жыл бұрын

Would my father have lived through an invasion of Japan? Who knows, but as it turned out, he was in first wave of occupation troops. He came home to his beloved farm and raised a family.

@lesleywillis6177

Жыл бұрын

That’s only the second time I’ve heard that reasoning for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Keep the Russians(still officially allies), out of the Pacific theatre. 👍

He doesn't need to offer an answer to "the problem" to be effective. He only needs to get more people thinking about the problem to have done a good thing! I congratulate Mr. Gladwell, for doing it with such panache.

I'm so happy that Garfunkel found a career outside of music!

@RockonMarketingTV

2 жыл бұрын

why? he is not the writer of music that Paul simon is but he has a beautiful voice! :=). I guess maybe the years haven't been kind to it however. ahem... with no criticism intended towards the speaker with questionable identity appearing in this video.:-)

@3rdeyestudios19

2 жыл бұрын

Too bad for Simon huh!? Lol

@govindaanand2284

2 жыл бұрын

YOU WATCH OUT JEMIMA HE MIGHT DROP A DRONE IN YOUR PICKLE BARREL.

As was said in a movie, Crimson Tide... "The true enemy is war itself"

Ironically, it is in how we use a given technology, not its accuracy, that determines the extent to which it reduces the number of casualties in warfare.

11:54 - a pickle barrel doesn’t know that you’re trying to kill it. A group of guys manning a SCUD launcher are very aware of this, and because they understand that if they stick their noses out of the cave during daylight hours, they will be eating a laser-guided Missile, they remain hidden - which effectively negates them as an effective offensive weapon....at least during daylight hours. Unlike a stationary munitions factory, you don’t actually have to destroy a deployed weapon to negate its effectiveness. You just have to get them to keep their heads down and not use it. How many bullets are fired by infantry soldiers for each enemy soldier killed? Thousands of rounds are expended for a volume of fire, just to suppress the enemy from advancing or to keep their head down. Mostly the SCUDS were launched at night, which was safer for the missile launch crews. Which is why a the Patriot Battery Missiles were also used.... which also weren’t as accurate as they might have been against inbound ballistic targets, but then this was not what THEY were initially designed for either.....but that’s another story.

Carel was born in Indonesia, nationality Dutch, raised in Barneveld in Holland, studies in Switserland, migrated to the U.S.A. and died in Switzerland. I know it doesn't fit the anecdotal story, but you lost me after saying Carel was a Swiss engineer.

@vinyldeane3346

5 жыл бұрын

Saying he was Swiss saved some time though

@carlcushmanhybels8159

4 жыл бұрын

True-ish. But he could have said "Dutch-Indonesian-Swiss" in the same length of time. It's his funny story about the Swiss character that he wouldn't have been able to use without mashing it.

@randommodnar7141

4 жыл бұрын

Who cares, he studies engineering in swiss university so swiss engineer

Except, the Norden Bombsight worked pretty well and was the best sight of the war. It is difficult to understand how complex putting something as clunky as a bomb on a specific spot while 25,000 in the air, when dropped at 220 miles an hour (give or take.) The US Air Corps was engaged in precision bombing. So when the Air Corp reviewed a bomb strike, a hit was when a bomb actually hit the factory or complex aimed at. So when a bomb missed the building it was considered to have missed the target. The British were engaged in area bombing and the target was generally a city. When the British missed the target, the bomb missed the entire city. The British had 38% of their bombs hit their target. In 1943 34% of all bombs dropped by the US Air Corps landed within 1000 feet of the target. Now 1000 feet isn’t in a “pickle barrel, but a 1000 lb bomb within 100 yards of anything, is a bad day for the anything. In 1944 as fighter opposition dwindled, bomb accuracy increased substantially. The Norden bomb sight was well worth the money and until actual electronic computers got involved was the best sight in the world. And Enola Gay didn’t miss the target, the Norden put the Bomb, one bomb, dropped from 30,000, while the plane the plane was doing 300 mph. Ignoring lead angle and trail angle, that is 6 miles, W/in 800 feet. That’s two and a half football fields, and about as accurate as the guns on the USS Iowa, which had a mean dispersion of 246 yards, and the gun computers on the Iowa cost as least as much as the Norden. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the talk, and agree with the concepts, but everything should be put in perspective. Carl Norden was a genius.

@Splattle101

4 жыл бұрын

"When the British missed the target, the bomb missed the entire city." This is untrue. While the Brits were aiming to destroy cities, they still used an aiming point as a target. This was because they wanted to concentrate the bombing in time and space, so as to overwhelm the civil defenses. That meant getting the entire raid across the target in minutes, and getting the payload as close to the aiming point as possible. By mid 1943, particularly with the use of electronic bombing aids like Oboe and specialized pathfinder formations, RAF Bomber Command was regularly achieving a CEP (Circular Error Probability) of 1 mile or less. That means that 50% of the bombs fell within a mile of the target. Coincidentally, that's standard of precision that the USAAF required in order call a raid 'precision'. Also, we should understand that 'precision' was a euphemism. The USAAF bomb groups typically bombed on the command of the lead bomber. Consider a formation of B-17s - a combat box - and think of the sheer space it takes up. Then imagine that box of bombers all toggling their load on the drop of the lead bomber. You're getting a combat-box-sized bomb pattern on the ground.

@taggartlawfirm

4 жыл бұрын

Bladder Splattle I beg to Differ, in 1943 32% of American bombs fell on the specific building or factory or within 1000 feet by late 44 the figure had reached 60% The accuracy of the British aerial campaign was calculated as striking with 1000 feet of the city. In 1941 only 20% of Bombs landed within 5 miles of the target little wonder since they were area bombing, by end of the war using magnetron radar British bombers were able to reliably drop Bombs with 25 feet of the target, but the target was still a city. www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/the-butt-report-revealing.html/amp

@taggartlawfirm

4 жыл бұрын

The British Royal Air-force commission a neutral study compiled by an assistant to the Viscount Lord Lindemen, Churchill’s most trusted advisor: The report reads as follows: “It must be observed also that by defining the target area for the purpose of this enquiry as having a radius of five miles, an area of over 75 square miles is taken. This must at least for any town but Berlin consist very largely of open country. The proportion of aircraft actually dropping their bombs on built up areas must be very much less...” The effect of the contents of the report were both shocking and devastating. Of bombers which reported that they had successfully bombed, on average, only one in five had actually dropped their bombs within five miles of the target. For targets in the heavily defended Ruhr, this dropped to one in ten. On nights when there was a new moon, this fell to one in fifteen. “... For all the courage, professionalism and determination of the British bombers crews, it is clear that most of their bombs are falling harmlessly on open country and very, very few were actually hitting their ‘targets’ ...”

@taggartlawfirm

4 жыл бұрын

From UK National Archives. www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/worldwar2/theatres-of-war/western-europe/investigation/hamburg/sources/docs/7/ This graph shows the accuracy of night bombing of German cities, excluding Berlin. It comes from a detailed report about war operations from 23rd February 1942 to 8th May 1945 by Air Chief Marshal, Sir Arthur Harris. The graph shows the percentage of aircraft attacking their target area. These figures are based on photographic evidence that show bombers reaching within three miles of their aiming point. Various radar based navigation aids, like "GEE" are also shown on the graph. The "GEE" system had a limited range and from August 1942 the Germans were able to start jamming its signals. Other radar navigation aids such as OBOE and H.2S were developed to increase the accuracy of the bombing.

@taggartlawfirm

4 жыл бұрын

The failure of American precision bombing during the years of 42-43 was not the result of missing, but the result of immense losses due to German air defenses, both fighter as well as ground based anti aircraft artillery. The concept of self defending bomber formations proved to be deeply flawed and it wasn’t until the development of long range fighter escort and maintenance of air superiority leading to eventual air supremacy that the benefits of daylight aerial bombing outweighed the massive cost in men and material. The British had much fewer casualties, both because of the fewer bombers used but also the relative safety of darkness. British bombing was no more effective despite the fact that more bombers completed missions, because the bombing of civilian targets (based on post war analysis) had little effect on productively.

Minor detail is that Carl Norden was Dutch rather than Swiss... Tells a different story :-)

@carlcushmanhybels8159

4 жыл бұрын

@Harry Lagom Most white Indonesians were Dutch, to part-Dutch. Indonesia had been a Dutch colony.

@oceandrew

3 жыл бұрын

How so? His birthplace has no bearing on the story's unfolding.

This is the first I've heard of this talk. I've read most of Gladwell's books and like them. I surely wish he had asked someone to fact check him on military matters/history. I'm afraid that he got most of those details very wrong and every time he pronounced Bombardier like the Canadian aircraft manufacturer it grated my nerves. He was glib in his summation and missed the mark on his point from my perspective. But looking beyond all that stuff, he has a very valid point about the pursuit of complex technology overshadowing the actual mission and objectives it was supposed to address. Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex.... the price tags are MUCH bigger today. Complexity doesn't always succeed and neither does oversimplification make valid points.

@smudge503

5 жыл бұрын

You are so correct Flywire..... he did!!

@minuteman4199

5 жыл бұрын

When I was a kid and Bombardier was still only in the snow mobile business, everyone pronounced it bombadeer. don't know when/how the pronunciation changed.

@friendlyone2706

4 жыл бұрын

Eisenhower warned about a 2 part dange. He saw military -industrial as one part. He saw academic as the 2nd. He feared the growing influence of academics sold on sweet sounding theories unchecked by messy reality.

@robmausser

4 жыл бұрын

Bombardier is a french word, the way Malcolm is saying it is actually the (more) correct way, and he is Canadian and thats the way we pronounce french words, the french way (without the french accent however if you are an anglophone).

@PdPete11795

4 жыл бұрын

Indeed the pursuit of technology overshadowing the end goal, is a problem for DoD as whole. In fact this is such a recognized problem that the Army created a new command, Army Futures, in the hope of addressing this issue. No telling if the AFC will be successful in making sure delivered products actually address end user needs, but at least they are trying.

In your ending statement, I think you've missed something. With or without Mr. Norden, the use of two atomic bombs did reduce the toll of suffering in that war. Do not forget, the Japanese were not going to stop. They were going to continue, win or lose, to the last man. It was a matter of honor and Emperor. You know, or I hope you know, the lengths at which the Allies went to minimize casualties at both sites. They should have been virtually deserted. Still, I'm not so sure his heart would have been broken. I think for him, that victory would be bitter sweet.

@mickvonbornemann3824

4 жыл бұрын

Actually no, the Japanese tried to negotiate a end of the war via intermediary countries at least 3 times. In fact many Historians feel there would've been a negotiated surrender at least 3 months earlier if the US had not had any nukes in it's armoury

@ihaligrygg9411

4 жыл бұрын

@@mickvonbornemann3824 This is news to me - no sarcasm. Where can we find evidence of the negotiations?

@apotato6278

3 жыл бұрын

@@ihaligrygg9411 Alright, let's put it like this. You want fewer innocents to die and you want to reduce suffering. You invent this device and since they don't use it like you intended your machine is used to almost indiscriminately bomb civilian areas. Ultimately it's used to deliver the most horrific weapon in human history, obliterating a city the size of Malmö, Sweden killing over 100 000 people. Some were lucky and died painlessly as they were disintegrated by the blast, some were not and would die of radiation poisoning (a symptom of which is your skin painfully falling off). If your invention, designed to minimize suffering, leads to countless children dying in agony as their skin peels off it isn't a bitter sweet victory. It's a disgusting perversion of your original intentions.

@brandoncriner5480

2 жыл бұрын

Amen. The atomic bombs actually saved countless more Japanese lives and infrastructure since they were committee to dying for their empire. Not to mention the lives of allied forces. All because they believed their emperor was a deity. Could the bombs have been placed on military targets? Maybe. But Americans can't typically understand how different the Japanese culture and resolve was.

Thank you to help add another outcome to the sighted objective.

Listening to this guy speak is like opening a beautifully wrapped gift and finding nothing inside.

The Norden was developed as the essential component for the bombers that would defend US coasts from enemy invasion. It was part of a flexible force multiplier. In that role it was an abysmal failure, it was not effective in bombing ships, not even at medium altitudes. Of course in practice bombing factory sized targets in cities was a lot easier to achieve, especially dropped in formation by lead by a leading bomb aimer. 10% is not that bad for the tech. It was probably worse when facing the Jagdwaffe and heavy Flak in ‘42-43. Statistics is always fun. Patriots and Stingers were a lot less effective than claimed. The Norden was not crucial to the Allied bombing campaign.

@blakebrown534

Жыл бұрын

It was developed to bomb Germany, not defend US shores. There was no real threat of invasion of the US. The US is essentially a fortress as we are in probably the most geographically advantageous location on the globe and would be damn near impossible to invade. The supply lines needed alone for such an operation by any potential invading force makes it damn near physically impossible. The bombsight was created because bombing was horribly inaccurate and the US thinking at the time in the Air Force was that we could end the war with a very small number of perfectly placed bombs on very specific industrial targets. For example, we thought that if we could just eliminate the ability of Germany to produce the precise ball bearings needed for mechanized hardware we could end the war right there without all the bloodshed and destruction that typically accompanies mass bombing campaigns. The goal was to avoid Dresden, to avoid the firebombing of Tokyo. Tokyo was firebombed because we discovered the existence of the jet stream; we had to fly high to avoid the anti-air guns but doing so put us up against this MASSIVE headwind and the weather over Japan was also very very cloudy which meant even if we could fly high and get there with enough fuel that we couldn't drop precise bombs because we couldn't see the targets. It all became too much to overcome. We had to fly in low at night in order to avoid the jet stream and come in under the clouds, but this left American bombers still exposed to AA guns and eliminated the ability to see any targets clearly as they'd have gone lights out on the ground as well. Because of these factors the air campaign was going very poorly with attempted precision strikes (on top of the bombsight being very difficult to use and the fact that if tolerances on the parts within were off even the slightest bit that bombs would no longer be anywhere near precise and machining simply wasn't good enough to prevent that, especially in such a complicated mechanism with so many moving parts in such a demanding environment) and General Curtis LeMay was brought in to manage the campaign and make it work....and so the massive bombing raids against Japan began with napalm being created and used for this purpose because of the proportion of structures that were built almost entirely of wood.

I’ve read his book “Bomber Mafia” plus “Masters Of the Air” on the 8th Bomber Group….both great books on our air war in WWII. They’re both worthwhile reads on that subject. His “Bomber Mafia” gave me some really insightful information on Curtis LeMay also.

@blakebrown534

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I listened to 'Bomber Mafia' on audiobook and it's an excellent kind of history of the Air Force through about WW2 and the military's strategic thinking around air power at that time. It amazed me to find out that the Japanese had invited LeMay back to Japan in the 60s to THANK HIM for dropping the bomb on them, as the Russians were also on their way and surely would have lead to a partitioned Japan and nothing like what they developed into after WW2.

@riffgroove

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, great book. LeMay was a brutal man, but he had no illusions about what it took to win a war.

Historical semi-inaccuracies can make for a good talk to get at a point. 1. The Norden sight was not difficult - watch the training films - they are on youtube. While some of the videos are complicated b/c they want to explain every detail of WHY the knowbs do what they do, the operation was more simple than trying to use Adobe or Windows where you have to memorize countless different series of three or 4 steps (or more) to get each task done. 2. He is taking out of context that the bombadiers would have been grateful to only miss their target by 800 feet as compared to trying to drop a bomb out of a moving plane at high altitude, compensating for wind, compensating for the arced path of a dropped object etc. WITHOUT a machine to help. 3. Did Norden say, when he (I am taking this guy's word for it) made the pickle barrel statement that he was talking about ideal conditions? Something to think about. 4. Japan: Taking a major point ignored by leftists nowadays (not saying the speaker is leftist) - by all calculations, dropping the bomb saved 6 million lives on both sides of the war. The speaker says Norder wanted to end the war with as little bloodshed is possible. Norden would have been horrified at the destruction of the atom bomb - as we all should be - but he would have been GLAD the it was used in light of the millions, literally, of lives saved. BTW - name another nation that ever dropped leaflets on a city before bombing it so as to warn civilians to get out or they WOULD die. Yes...we did. Name another country that after defeating an enemy (who had started a war by attacking) even then gave that enemy back their own country with their own government and helped to rebuild them. American Exceptionalism is a fact.

@beasthunt

5 жыл бұрын

#4 was a spot on response. Well said.

I just quite liked his rhythm and his personality. He sounds intelligent and just a little bit crazy and of course totally absorbing to listen to.

@williamwoody7607

2 жыл бұрын

You like shtick?

@MrMrHiggins

2 жыл бұрын

Check out Revisionist History - he's an absolutely masterful storyteller.

@MrMrHiggins

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamwoody7607 Can you explain why you chose that word or

Colonel Hogan explained this on Hogan's Heroes. The Norden has a convenient handle and dust bag. It is one of the best vacuum cleaners ever made.

If I am not mistaken, I recall being told that the company in Chicago, where my parents did print-related work, produced the training books and/or manuals for the Norden Bombsight during WW2. I no longer have them to ask, but as I recall, they had an important job to do during the War. This might have been it.

@markfryer9880

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, technical and training manuals for the Top Secret, Norden Bombsight would count as Very iImportant War Work. Given the security standards posed by the USAAF as it was then, would mean very intensive security screening of your parents and their work mates by the FBI and accounting for all copies of the various manuals. It is highly probable that they never got to see a completed full copy, but rather specific sections of the manuals, with responsibility for printing the other sections being placed with several other printers in different cities around the Continental United States.

@TKRM2007

Жыл бұрын

Bell & Howell made the Norden Bomb Sight.

as much as i have wanted to believe that malcolm's work was overly wordy overly dramatic, i always come back to the conclusion that he is really a masterful story teller. first, he chooses the right stories to tell, which is probably the hardest part of what he does, then he does the research, deep research, and then he spins the tale in beautiful, and very accessible language. he speaks to every man (or woman), and he gives them something to ponder as they live their life.

I remember as a kid in the 50's haunting Army surplus stores. My brother and I were war buffs, this was in the day of plastic models(we weren't into crappy car models) the heyday of Revell and Monogram( they were 2nd rate) this is too far off the subject, but a surplus store in near downtown Indpls. had a Norden bombsight for sale out in front of the store on the sidewalk for some ridiculous price (over 10++$0) We found it interesting but hadn't a clue about its use

The claim that $1.5 billion was spent *developing* the Norden bombsight simply isn't credible. The entire Manhattan project cost $2 billion (another fact he got wrong). In fact, having looked into this claim it's almost certainly wrong The Navy originally gave Norden a $320,000 contract in 1928. They later bought and had various versions licence-manufactured, including investing $100 million in setting up manufacturing plants and other development charges. The actual cost of the bombsight was $8,800 and the US AAF procured 72,000 of them. The problem is that Malcolm Gladwell is so obviously not a military expert and obviously doesn't even have a serious amateur interest in military issues. There's something quite superficial about him, exemplified by yet another mistake; saying the US dropped a "thermonuclear" bomb on Japan. I suspect most of the things he says are basically exaggerations or things he made up.

@chikinwing213

5 жыл бұрын

I agree, he ruined what might otherwise have been a tolerable attempt to modernize the parable. If you have an idea; abstract or not, and it's a good one, or might be perceived as such, don't undermine your own credibility with numbers you got third party and haven't been intimated with. It might also lend itself to the respectability of Malcolm's curiosity for things martial that he discontinue presenting it as anything more than theater of the intellect; loosely affiliated with a common perspective, perfectly divorced from the facts of his subject.

@localcrew

5 жыл бұрын

I'm probably not gonna take as gospel something said by a man who can't tuck in his own shirttail.

@dcmfox

5 жыл бұрын

@@localcrew But you could look it up instead of being a fucking moron However, the cost of the entire program came to more than $1 billion. The last combat use of the Norden bombsight was in 1967, when it was used for dropping acoustic sensors along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Southeast Asia. Today, the Carl L. Norden Company's role in bombsight development is consigned to history.Jul 30, 2016 The Norden Bombsight: Accurate Beyond Belief? warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/.../the-norden-bombsight-accurate-beyond-belie...

@dcmfox

5 жыл бұрын

@@chikinwing213 However, the cost of the entire program came to more than $1 billion. The last combat use of the Norden bombsight was in 1967, when it was used for dropping acoustic sensors along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Southeast Asia. Today, the Carl L. Norden Company's role in bombsight development is consigned to history.Jul 30, 2016 The Norden Bombsight: Accurate Beyond Belief? warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/.../the-norden-bombsight-accurate-beyond-belie...

@dcmfox

5 жыл бұрын

lor However, the cost of the entire program came to more than $1 billion. The last combat use of the Norden bombsight was in 1967, when it was used for dropping acoustic sensors along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Southeast Asia. Today, the Carl L. Norden Company's role in bombsight development is consigned to history.Jul 30, 2016 The Norden Bombsight: Accurate Beyond Belief? warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/.../the-norden-bombsight-accurate-beyond-belie...

When I was young dad worked construction on the base somewhere near LA where they were doing work on the Norden bombsight. Since we had a German name a car would follow Dad home every night to the trailer court where we lived. When I was older Mom told me that the people in the car were FBI agents.

@gandolfthewhite

5 жыл бұрын

Ralph Worlein and if you were Japanese American you would have ended up in a camp.

This is one of the most accurate things I've ever seen him produce. It's also an almost perfect paraphrase of what Howard Zinn says about the bombsight. Light on the para in some cases.

According to Wikipedia Norden was Dutch, and not Swiss: Carl Lucas Norden (April 23, 1880 - June 14, 1965), born Carel Lucas van Norden, was a Dutch engineer widely known for having invented the Norden bombsight. Norden was born in Semarang, Java [a Dutch colony]. After attending a boarding school in Barneveld, Netherlands, he was educated at the ETH Zürich in Switzerland. He emigrated to the United States in 1904.

@chrishayes8197

Жыл бұрын

If Norden was trained as an engineer in Switzerland, and/or if he personally claimed to be Swiss, most would consider him Swiss.

Many of the comments here point out the inaccuracies in Gladwell's talk. But the whole story he told was to point out the folly of continuously trying to find the better weapon, when the real answer to winning a war is to never start one in the first place, and instead we need to learn to talk with each other to resolve the differences.

@DennisSanner

Жыл бұрын

I don’t believe we can be blamed for starting WWI or WWII. we can be credited with helping bring them to a close and allowing most nations to resume their pre-war prerogatives.

Anything with Malcolm Gladwell is informative and enlightening

@czeskaslovenska

Жыл бұрын

My uncle Tony was in the Army Air Corps. Based in Alaska. His job was to service the Norden bombsite on planes that were based there.

After the war the 8th Air Force commissioned the Strategic Bombing Survey. John Kenneth Galbraith helped write the report . In summary the accuracy was less than chance due to all the points covered in this talk. Including Flak and fighters over the target, fear, turbulence from other bombers, and the fact that the pilot was supposed to hand over control to the bombardier for the final 15min run into the target. But in practice what actually occurred was as soon as the lead plane dropped all planes in the box began to release their payload and break out of formation to escape the intensity of the German defenses over the target zone, and avoid damaged bombers and parachutes falling all round .

so many error in this talk. " Carl Lucas Norden (April 23, 1880 - June 14, 1965), born Carel Lucas van Norden, was a Dutch[1] engineer widely known for having invented the Norden bombsight. Norden was born in Semarang, Java. After attending a boarding school in Barneveld, Netherlands, he was educated at the ETH Zürich in Switzerland. He emigrated to the United States in 1904. " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Norden

@dchezik

5 жыл бұрын

I just made a comment on this talk that agrees with pakurilecz "so many errors in this talk." Isn't there anyone that fact-checks before airing?

@PilotProjectsNYC

5 жыл бұрын

"...Carl Norden was enshrined in the National Aviation Hall of Fame in 1994. The following is a summary of his career as presented in their citation. Carl Lucas Norden was born on April 23rd, 1880 in Semarang, Java,(now Indonesia) the third of five children. Following the death of his father in 1885, the family returned to Holland, then moved to Dresden, Germany in 1893. In 1896 he began a three year apprenticeship in a Swiss machine shop, after which he entered the world-famous Zurich Federal Polytechnic School. He graduated as a mechanical engineer in 1904 and came to America." He moved to Switzerland when he was a teenager, apprenticed there as a kid, and was educated in Zurich, then went back and died in Zurich,. So its not such a stretch to say he was a "Swiss engineer"

Too many TED talks seem to just be “fluff”. They may sound profound but have little valuable/useful content.

@gandolfthewhite

5 жыл бұрын

John Simpson no his talks are finely disguised anti war.

@timherald4516

5 жыл бұрын

@@acbulgin2 ty. At least someone gets it. 67 here.

@nerthus4685

5 жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@TheGeorgeD13

5 жыл бұрын

Then you haven't encountered the truly great TED Talks. Not a ton of great ones, but they are there.

@gandolfthewhite

4 жыл бұрын

@There's No Godand who made all those movies with explosions? Why it was the Hollyweird crowd. You gullible liberal, Demwit morons are the problem. You hypocrites attack gun owners while murdering everyone with guns in your movies.

The Hiroshima bomb was not a "thermonuclear bomb," that would be a hydrogen bomb. It was an "atomic bomb." Sometimes semantics matter.

@marco3dartist

5 жыл бұрын

This guy is an idiot. He was wrong on much more than that.

@johnconroy3078

4 жыл бұрын

Yup, Gladwell's such a total idiot which is why "Rico Chofsky" & "Marco Valenzuela 3D Additive Artist" are such well known thinkers and authors and have been know to appear in many TED Talks. Their works are available on amazon.com is you just go looking, I'm sure.

@marco3dartist

4 жыл бұрын

@@johnconroy3078 Wow this sheep can talk. TedX is garbage. Anyone can speak at a TedX conference from palm readers to solo drummers.

@energeticenterprizes4974

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly correct, sir.

@randommodnar7141

4 жыл бұрын

@@marco3dartist such as?

This the second TED talk by Malcolm Gladwell that I have listened to. Both presentations have included serious errors. His conclusions must be suspect.

@jimhughes1962

5 жыл бұрын

William Trione ~ Seriously? He could have used any number of other examples and made the same point-which was the point.

@fustigate314159

5 жыл бұрын

I think most of his errors were minor and didn't change the point or the validity of his conclusion.

@iangascoigne8231

5 жыл бұрын

William Trione What are the errors?

@yru435

5 жыл бұрын

Malcolm Gladwell is over-rated, and his "work" is interesting but not completely reliable or correct. He is getting very close to his 15 minutes being over.

@PeterJames143

5 жыл бұрын

Okay I'm open minded but please say what the errors are concisely and with a little bit of evidence.

This reminds me of this time in high school when I stepped in some Malcom Gladwell and tracked it all the way into my Algebra class. I had no idea I'd even stepped in some Malcom Gladwell until the disgusting smell started filling the classroom. By that time, the entire class was smelling Malcom Gladwell and looking around to see where it came from, including me. Then I saw it, the footprints of Malcom Gladwell all leading up to my desk and right to my left shoe, which was half covered in Malcom Gladwell. Possibly the most embarrassing moment of my life. All I'm saying is, just always make sure to check your shoes for Malcom Gladwell before you enter a building and track Malcom Gladwell everywhere.

I liked 97% of the story, and agreed with about that much. I disagree with his final point. Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and then on Nagasaki served to avoid invading the Home Islands. Or, failing an invasion, a resurgence of war in the Pacific. Japan would not give up until they were completely beaten or had won, it's a well-documented sentiment among Japanese brass. I hate that it had to happen, and I hate that so many innocent people died (Grave of the Fireflies, anyone?) but it was necessary to prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of soldiers and millions of civilians in a war that had already claimed over thirty million soldiers and fifty million of civilians.

@briantaylor9701

5 жыл бұрын

Not exactly. Most of Japan's navy was sank, their industrial capacity was in ruins and their major weakness, over dependence on importing raw materials, made it impossible to rectify those other points. A U.S. naval blockade would have forced Japan to choose between surrender or starvation with minimal loss of soldiers/sailors to the occasional kamikaze attack. Even that threat had largely been neutralized with improvements in magnetic fused ordinance in anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) as well as Japan's shortages of planes, pilots, fuel and explosives. Atomic bomb use was purely a show of force to cut the Soviet's out of any spoils from a Japanese surrender and to show them that they should think twice about trying to annex more of Europe than they had already agreed to.

@robertgiles9124

5 жыл бұрын

How easy it is to overlook the thousands on POWS suffering and dying every day because of the terrible conditions. That was an important reason to bring the war to a quick end. This nonsense about an atomic bomb over another type bomb is ridiculous. What wasn't a question was the proven ability of the Japanese to fight to the end; you see they believed that he Americans would be as ruthless as the JAPANESE would be after victory. Funny how things really look different after you put it ALL into perspective.

@alistairmuir5521

5 жыл бұрын

Well if you want to put it "all" into perspective, best not leave out this bit... www.atomicheritage.org/history/debate-over-japanese-surrender

@paulwary

5 жыл бұрын

I don't have an opinion about that, but his logic was screwy anyhow. Nordern would have been upset that they used his bomb-sight, which they didn't need to use, to drop the bomb. If they didn't need to use it, it makes no difference whether they used his device, or their right thumb to sight the bomb.

@laserprawn

5 жыл бұрын

Japan would have starved in a few months.

Actually according to three former Drone pilots, now whistle blowers, drone warfare is not nearly as accurate the military would like the general public to believe. This is documented in the film “National Bird” produced by Erroll Morris & Wim Wenders.

What about the Norden vacuum cleaner mentioned in Hogan's heroes???

@richardpark3054

4 жыл бұрын

Well, I think we can all agree: it sucked!

As one of the producers of "Fast Company" a "B" drag racing movie, we believe we were the first to put a camera in a race car. We used a WWII Norton bombsight in a 1978 Pontiac Firebird Funny Car and filmed a run from inside the car from the driver's POV.

My Uncle, Marjor Charles N. Davis operated the highly classified Norden bombsight. That was my motivation for watching this video. Mr. Gladwell is an excellent story teller, no doubt about that. His world-view is somewhat idealistic, however. It's naive to think that you can bargain with those who are set to kill you. Oh, and as for Mr. Norden's belief that his bombsight would lessen human suffering: it did exactly that. Those who research the mindset of the Japanese during WWII can attest to that.

The problem with anything Gladwell says is that his process is so flawed, as evidenced by his conclusions in his infamous David and Goliath video, and even in his more established works like Outliers, that you can't trust anything he says. It's fascinating, but you can't depend on it. This talk is no different. His main conclusion seems to be that while Norden wanted the bomb sight to reduce human suffering in war, it did the opposite. This is a purely emotional conclusion. The Japanese were committed to defending the homeland to the last person standing, and/or commit suicide in the process, but kill as many enemy as possible. This is indisputable. The 2 bombs were dropped 3 days apart, and the 2nd only because they would not surrender. Like many arguments today, unsupported presuppositions are used as givens, then theories are built on them. Gladwell is probably the most famously bad person at this, because his theories are taken so seriously.

@ianwill4570

Жыл бұрын

This. Exactly. A perfect review, thank you. I was astonished listening to so much tripe. This man is moronic.

@user-uv4tv9po9j

Жыл бұрын

Eisenhower himself said Japan was ready to surrender.

So captivating!

extraordinary talk...

The Nordon Bomb site isn't very good today, and it didn't work as well as advertised, but it worked a LOT better than anything they had before. But just because it doesn't work perfectly, it is no reason to discard it. People like this annoy me. They think "If it doesn't work perfectly, what's the point." If you have a social program that works well, better than any other previous program, but it leaves 40% of the people it is suppose to help without said help, they think the program should be shut down. They don't offer any other suggestion, but they think it is better to help no one than to leave 40% high and dry. Of course the 60% that do get helped will be left high and dry as well, but the 40% that are left out won't feel bad, I guess.

@Sharkmac42

5 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you didn't laugh at the Lenin joke either...

@randommodnar7141

4 жыл бұрын

The point wasnt that it didnt work, note that whem he points out the flaws he says "doesnt work as well" not doesnt work at all. The point was that it was hailed as the thing to win the war, it would be crucial for the war, its the best thing since sliced bread when it didnt live up to expectations and didnt make as big of an impact as expected

@MLGJuggernautgaming

3 жыл бұрын

It’s also people like this that look past the benefits of defense spending because they’re too focused on the casualties of war

"Hello darkness my old friend..."

@paulf2723

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely......:-))))

Well, this is far too sketchy and incomplete to draw the lessons that Gladwell hoped from the gap between the claims for the Norden bombsight and the reality. In 1940 one of my uncles was in the Army at Pearl Harbor when one morning he saw a B-17 with an engine fire struggling to make it back to the base. It failed and crashed into the coral. My uncle stopped his jeep, dove into the water and checked on each of the crew members repeatedly going into the water and the plane and returning to the surface for air. He said that all the bodies were broken to the point it was if one were handling spaghetti. After his last dive an officer came to the scene and ordered him to dive in and get the Norden bombsight. He went in one more time and found it shattered to pieces so he returned with the cover. A few months later the men of his company were assembled for an awards ceremony. The officer was given a commendation, my uncle nothing. However, he received quite a few decorations latter beginning with the attack at Pearl Harbor and latter being trained as a paratrooper and jumping into Germany. He passed five years ago and I miss him and will always remember his service and his lack of hatred and respect for the Germans he fought and reluctantly killed.

Amazing physics from back in the day.

Hiroshima did reduce the total suffering of that war, invasion of the mainland would have caused much more death and suffering for both sides.

@1454LOU

5 жыл бұрын

R U STUPID??

@humanmale4610

5 жыл бұрын

@@1454LOU Do you believe RBB RBB is "stupid", as you put it, because you believe his math is incorrect or does it offend some sensibility within yourself? You asked him if he is stupid just as a child would. The people who think critically would not give you the time of day but I will tell you to learn time.

@scottleft3672

5 жыл бұрын

@@1454LOU Cleary you are....and unfamilliar with the subject....the fact was proven....200,000 allied lives spared and untold Japanees as the Tokyo fire storm was the typical method prior.

@cakemoss4664

5 жыл бұрын

@@scottleft3672 Plenty of those Allied prisoners died as soon as they ate.

@billietyree6139

5 жыл бұрын

@@1454LOU The Japanese women and school children were being trained to fight, to the death, with bamboo spears in the case of invasion. We would have had to kill nearly every Japanese to win the war without the bomb. Look at what happened on Okinawa where women committed suicide by jumping off of cliffs onto the rocks below, with babies in their arms, rather than surrender. The A bomb saved lives and has prevented a major war since then.

there are very few "advancements" either in military or the civilian world that can be pointed to as 100% positive with absolutely no unanticipated consequences. For example.. with all the development in computer technology, it seems that the end result is people like you reading what people like me write about people like Malcolm Gladwell. And that can't be a good thing.

Carel Lucas van Norden was Dutch (not Swiss) The Little Boy was not thermo-nuclear bomb (but uranium gun-type fission bomb). 12 fixed SCUD-launching sights were destroyed from the air during the Gulf War (as for the mobile SCUD launchers the findings are inconclusive, but what is conclusive - that the air-strikes surely prevented 100s of the SCUDs being launched possibly saving 100s of civilian's lifes. M. Gladwell had some fascinating stories in his "Outliers" book, but here he is trying to compare tomatoes and earphones with no success or credibility. He should've better stayed with the sauce...

@extradimension7356

5 жыл бұрын

Plus many other factual errors in his presentation. Additionally Bomber Harris + Allies totally carpet bombed German cities and the Americans leveled fire storm raids on Japan that were very devastating. The whole reason in modern warfare we have precision guided systems is so we don't have to carpet bomb entire cities with massive civilian casualties. Malcolm G, strangely sloppy work and "Thesis".

@indigogolf3051

5 жыл бұрын

And... the SCUD was surface to surface not surface to air.

@howarddavis165

5 жыл бұрын

Wow, and your responses and opposition to his discussion is based on unimportant Oh never mind, you trolls. Why would I even bother trying...? -sigh- Humans, so happy in their supreme and superior smug ignorance... and yet, I have such hope for them.

@extradimension7356

5 жыл бұрын

@@howarddavis165 Everything you just said could 100% be applied to Gladwell's presentation. Very poor standard of research. to make a very weak point. Precision guided munitions means we don't carpet bomb cities anymore. Gladwell framed the discussion very poorly IMO. With the fires storms in Japan and the carpet bombing of cities like Dresden and Hamburg where the black top/ tarmac is boiling from 400 mile an hour pyroclastic winds virtually made atomic munitions mute/ irrelevant at that point. Japan made the false assumption that the US could rapidly build more atomic weapons, but in reality the millions of tons of bombs and incendiary devices did by far the bulk of the work. The US Airforce did extensive reconnaissance work and studies after the war to confirm that. If you look at the aerial imagery you will see for yourself. Gladwell needs to hold himself to a higher standard … Not just 'cuz it's a TED Talk.

@ivonedefigueiredo9301

5 жыл бұрын

EXTRA DIMENSION Ahh! MG is a storyteller. He has allowances for artistic license. Don’t you guys see that?

I spoke to a WWll bombardier. He said the Norden worked beautifully if it was a clear day, no wind, the plane was below 30,000 ft., and the air crew knew in advance exactly where it's stationary target was. Most of the time we couldn't meet even one of these conditions. We would have hit more targets if we had dropped that damn cumbersome bombsight.

The Norden Bombsight was a moral triumph. It ended the war more quickly. Absolutely. Saved countless lives. You are a cynic.

@Anonymous-mn3td

5 жыл бұрын

Hitler called, and he wants his "end justifies the means" mentality back.

It would have "broken Norden's heart" if tens of thousands of bombs were dropped instead of using 2 atomic weapons.

@alingram5216

5 жыл бұрын

Damn right Glenn, they did save lives!

@ortcloud99

5 жыл бұрын

That last line was just some liberal leftist spin at the end to warm the hearts of the liberal audience watching. You arent supposed to use logical thinking when dealing with liberal propaganda, it is just supposed to push emotional buttons.

@Mortlupo

5 жыл бұрын

Well since he knew his sights were on the plane and that they would use it to target, he already knew that it was.

@misterkatanga

5 жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more. His summation including Malcolm's projected ideals onto Norden's motivations is telling, IMO. How does Malcolm know how Norden would have felt? Malcolm calls Norden a narcissist, egomaniac, and devout christian like these are all neatly-fitting pieces of a complete psychological picture of Norden. Further, Malcolm expects us to take his opinion of Norden as fact, as he does not provide a shred of evidence to support his claim he was a narcissist or egomaniac. Allegations like these, against someone who provided so much and is not there to defend themselves, are in truly poor taste. But Gladwell doesn't bat an eye, expecting us to just lap up his assessment without question, as he is probably used to by now. These people live in an echo chamber. This talk is exhibit A.

@littlebig1818

5 жыл бұрын

Glenn Mullin his goal was to reduce civilian casualties by hitting the targets (soldiers). While the atomic bombs killed thousands of civilians. That is what I understood it as

Excellent delivery.

One has to remember the context in which the Norden was so expensively developed. Think of the primitive state of prior aircraft technology in general and the huge leaps in performance and range made in the 30s. They spent all that money learning to bomb. As well, the prevailing theory of military airpower between the wars put overwhelming emphasis on strategic bombing. The American spin on this was to develop the Flying Fortress as anti-ship coastal defence aircraft. For that, one needs precision. Political reality slowly pulled America out of isolationism, and military thinking evolved. But in practise, all this emphasis on precision did allow for greater accuracy overall. American bombers were able to usefully focus on factories and military sites while initially it was the British who area bombed whole sections of cities at night. It wouldn't have been acceptable to American leadership to do the same, at least not so soon in their involvement. When LeMay left Europe for the Pacific, it was the latest British thinking he took with him.

I wish Gladwell would do a video entitled "The Strange Tale of Malcolm Gladwell's Hair."

@nexussever

3 жыл бұрын

That could be followed by "The Strange Tale of Leif Johnson's Empty Skull."

14:00 - "...dropped a very large thermonuclear device..." According to all definitions available, the fission-only atomic bombs dropped on Japan to end WWII were NOT thermonuclear. Why don't these TED talks get some people to speak who know what they are talking about?

When he quotes the Hiroshima bomb missed its target by 800 feet, that is incorrect as the bomb was designed to explode in mid air which it did over the city. The way he frames it is giving the impression it was like a conventional HE bomb which detonates on impact after the priming mechanism has been engaged.

The particular issue of unexploded WW2 Yank bombs has to do with the fuse arming mechanism. We built a couple of townhouses, back in the 1990s, next door to a WW2 RNZAF ground crew veteran called Bruce, who had served in the Pacific theatre. Bruce told us that the British bomb fuses had a small propellor that armed the bomb after a few (possibly 12) turns and that the Yank bomb fuses required 180 turns, if I recall correctly, which meant that the armourers had to prewind the Yank fuses. This was a particular problem for our RNZAF squadrons directly supporting troops because when close support aircraft were being quickly rearmed, as will happen with that type of task, the Yank arming mechanism might not be sufficiently prewound. He was still pissed off (quite rightly) about that stupid piece of design.

Errata: Carl Norden was Dutch... not Swiss.

@grendlsma

4 жыл бұрын

True. He was educated in Switzerland though. And went back to live there after the war.

Hmm...Carl Norden was a Dutch engineer who received his degree in Switzerland and happened to reside there.

@brianclark7412

3 жыл бұрын

According to Wikipedia he was born in Java Indonesia

MG talks are the best.

The other thing worth noting about the Norden BS is that it was so precious that they were stored in special secure buildings on airfields. I believe these buildings were also specially guarded.

"Whatcha drawing there Carl?" "Norden."

OH also - the bomb dropped on Hiroshima was NOT thermonuclear, rather it was nuclear.

@jneiberger

5 жыл бұрын

Yep. A thermonuclear bomb would have done significantly more damage.

@brucemastiff7390

4 жыл бұрын

Facts mean nothing to liberals.

@jneiberger

4 жыл бұрын

@@brucemastiff7390 I'm a liberal, so...

@BuddyNutcracker

4 жыл бұрын

I have lots of liberal friends, but I dont know for the life of me, why they support abortion and want to tear up the constitution and get rid of freedom and the 2nd amendment. Can you help me out with that?

@elmospasco5558

4 жыл бұрын

@@BuddyNutcracker The only liberal thing about liberals is the liberties they take with other people's property, money and lives. That is why they are so comfortable with totalitarian regimes.

such an excellent story teller and creative genius.

My uncle claimed that his sister, ergo my aunt, would sit in on meetings where they discussed how to construct this or that weapon during WW II. Several of the meetings related to the Norden bombsite. Her job was to sketch the ideas of how to construct said weapon as they were being discussed. I asked my aunt's daughter, ergo my cousin, if she knew anything about this. She said she didn't. Is there anyway to find out for sure?

@nudenut1916

Жыл бұрын

Your uncle's sister could be your mum. In Alabama, she could his sister, his wife, your mum and your cousin too.

@calql8er

Жыл бұрын

@@nudenut1916 Clears up everything. Thank you very much.