Luke, why did you try to murder your nephew in his sleep? "I'm old."

@phonepunk7888

Ай бұрын

*Shows you three different contradictory versions of the same 5 minute event*, "uh, you figure it out."

@UncleJamie

Ай бұрын

I have two nephews. To be honest I can totally understand Jake on this one....

@anon17472

Ай бұрын

Your honour let the record show the defendant is indeed old

@kylefrank638

Ай бұрын

Even TLJ deserves a better defense than what this guy dished out

@N00BSYBORG

Ай бұрын

@@kylefrank638 "Emperor Palpatine cast Force Alzheimers on Luke," is unironically a better, more entertaining defense than just saying he's old.

“They’re human they made a mistake” is reserved for accidentally dropping something, not executing your nephew because of a vision

Trying to murder your nephew that **may** hurt someone one day, vs saving your father that ALREADY wiped out billions of people because he **may** be redeemed, is not at all possible with the same character. The Bigideas Cope in this is enough to warp space-time.

@LukasJampen

Ай бұрын

It could be possible but you'd need to put a lot of work in to justify it in a believable way and we all know Ryan isn't good enough at writing to do that as he's clearly proven.

@JoeAhmadGuitar

Ай бұрын

Exactly

@timothymills6134

Ай бұрын

It’s possible with a trilogy’s worth of development, but since Luke got no development between Rotj and TLJ his sudden change makes no sense. Idk how Rian Johnson can still unironically defend what he did, this is a mistake a high school creative writing student should know to avoid.

@eledgy

Ай бұрын

Look, Rian doesn’t know much about being old.

@cyrilmagi6201

Ай бұрын

it can easily be done without to much effort because by adding a flashback and few lines of dialogue. For example you could simply add one or several previous studenst that turned to the dark side before Kylo. Making Luke doubt his previous course of action. Adding to that you just have to have him contrast Darth Vador redemption against that failure and then, when he detects a possible risk in his own nephew he might overreact hence leading to the flashback where he almost attacks Kylo. This can be done in 5 to 10 minutes of sceen time.

"Luke is old and has seen stuff. Thus it makes sense for him to try to kill his nephew over a bad dream."

@denkerbosu3551

Ай бұрын

*bad feeling Which is somehow worse. Idk how he managed to make it worse, but he did it, he vadered!

@SpFlash1523

Ай бұрын

​@@denkerbosu3551 He vadered harder than Vader.

@coyoteone6197

Ай бұрын

Certainly, Luke's life up to that point had been one of ease and tranquility.

Darth Vader: *directly threatens Leia, Luke goes apeshit, but immediately stops himself.* Kylo Ren: *gives off dodgy vibes, ENGAGE MURDER-MODE*

@eledgy

Ай бұрын

Look, I don’t know much about being old.

@Nickle_King

Ай бұрын

Don’t forget the active torture and selling off of his best friend and his walking carpet.

@arkoa0000

Ай бұрын

Look we should not promote victim blaming culture but I am just saying Kylo was asking for it with how he was dressed.

@denkerbosu3551

Ай бұрын

@@arkoa0000 He WANTED his uncle to walk in his room, sword laser in hand.

@toddbrown242

Ай бұрын

To be fair, Vader was cool af and Kylo sucks so I would've done the same thing

I've always hated the "it was a moment of weakness" excuse. Like: If YOU woke up and your uncle was holding a shotgun to your head, muttered, "Sorry, moment of weakness." And just left, YOU AINT FORGIVING SHITE!

@Wyzai

Ай бұрын

we've all had that moment of weakness where we go buy a can of petrol and a lighter and go stand in front of our parents' house with an open flame... right? it happens. No big deal.

@denkerbosu3551

Ай бұрын

Not to mention, if that uncle of yours used to be the most hopeful hero of his generation.

@kasaibouF29

Ай бұрын

The thing about the moment of weakness is that sometimes, it is legitimate. Like for example the Jedi named Sha'a Gi from the clone Wars cartoon, he was characterized as fearful, and his moment of weakness was succumbing to his fear and charging into battle without second thought before getting crushed by Grievous.

@jeronimo196

Ай бұрын

Happened to me once, but my uncle wasn't holding a shotgun. I learned a lot that night.

@justapotato1623

Ай бұрын

Would've been a wild breakfast that morning

Luke is a Jedi like his father before him. Unfortunately, he also seems to have inherited Anakin's willingness to murder defenseless children LMAO.

@_monolithic_

Ай бұрын

It’s like poetry…

@Azumadofu

Ай бұрын

@@_monolithic_ They rhyme.

@10JandS

Ай бұрын

better explanation than in the movie tbh

@atomicdancer

Ай бұрын

Obi-Wan: "Luke has turned to the Grey Side. I have seen... flashbacks... of him... thinking about... killing teenlings."

@Timic83tc

Ай бұрын

Is this about Hammill funding all those abortions?

This might be some newcomers' introduction to an unfiltered Wolf. Enjoy.

@for4thwind264

Ай бұрын

And it is glorious

@jonbaxter2254

Ай бұрын

@@for4thwind264 Based wolf boi

@madcapmakov2

Ай бұрын

I miss unfiltered and unapologetic wolf.

@bigflippingboss

Ай бұрын

A guaranteed good time.

@benmangerere358

Ай бұрын

My first time lol dude not playing

"People change with age" Meet Han Solo and Chewbacca who haven't changed in 40 years.

@NoobTamer

Ай бұрын

Actually, it can be argued Han at the very least regressed as a character. By the end of episode 6 we see him as someone who has accepted responsibility and working as part of a greater whole. That gets continued in the legends universe of course. But in TFA, he has made a complete 180 back to his smuggler ways preANH.

@MagicE13

Ай бұрын

@@NoobTamer Okay 🙄 , I was just making an observation to when he said that people change with age, yes you are absolutely correct do in fact Solo and Chewy revert back to ANH. I am not getting into a string of babbling words as to why Disney wanted to destroy Luke Skywalker as a character for the 'lols'.

@themastter8

Ай бұрын

@@MagicE13he’s not attacking you dude, he’s actually pointing out it’s WORSE than just stagnating. The writers are so inept they dragged Han backwards as a character

@MagicE13

Ай бұрын

@@themastter8 Is that how you read that? Read it again but with 'Meh' being the defining attitude. Relax 😮‍💨

@NoobTamer

Ай бұрын

@MagicE13 it is in agreement with you. I apologize if that wasn't clear. Yes my intentions were to expound on what the exact issue with Han with is.

"...this isn't an argument" Wolf: "None of this has been an argument" 😂😂😂

7:21 LMFAO Yes, as an old man I can confirm I have commited 3 genocide and 1 jaywalking just this very morning

@adammoyer4018

Ай бұрын

Only three, those are rookie numbers, but you shouldn't jay walk.

@christianmock7068

Ай бұрын

Well look at you, you crazy free spirit!

@Wyzai

Ай бұрын

eventually we all become Palpatine. We grow old enough, we get that itch to conquer the universe and glass some planets. He wasn't an evil sith lord, he was just an average old dude.

A characters morality doesn't just flip that easily

@SacClass650

Ай бұрын

His does however, it's projection.

@educatedlaziness3268

Ай бұрын

Oh but you're not taking into account hes old

@eggtheman3164

Ай бұрын

@@SacClass650 what?

@SacClass650

Ай бұрын

@@eggtheman3164 The gentleman doesn't sound as though he has a grasp of logic or ethics, oscillating to whatever gives him approbation at any given time.

@eggtheman3164

Ай бұрын

@@SacClass650 oh, I see. The way you phrased it confused me.

This is what happens when you teach people that every perspective is valid and no one can ever hold an incorrect opinion. It's genuinely sad.

@_Sage967_

Ай бұрын

I feel bad for people that have to listen to him because the issue is, due to the faulty logic his opinion is based in proper logic won't immediately reach him and current day feelings culture makes people like him incredibly resistant to the feeling of being wrong He entered intellectual survival mode so if you can't beat every stupid point completely, "he wins"

@denkerbosu3551

Ай бұрын

@@_Sage967_ Opinions formed on faulty facts are bound to either be wrong, or accidentally correct at best. Not to mention you can perceive facts wrongly. This is why you're meant to do stuff ike peer review and make sure an experiment is repeatable.

@DaMaster012

Ай бұрын

No one who says "all opinions are correct" actually believes it; to prove it, whenever anyone makes that claim, start taking about how much you like Donald Trump They didn't actually believe all perspectives and all feelings are valid, they just want to establish a precedent where their own feelings can never be challenged, and thus never proven wrong.

Wow.. We're nearly 10 years into the Disneyfanatical Star Wars era

@MegaStromboli

Ай бұрын

I didn't think there was still people like this tbh

@fr0ck360

Ай бұрын

@@MegaStromboliAhsoka pretty much proved they still exist. “HE VADERED!!”

@DanBonRP

Ай бұрын

@@MegaStromboli they are worse now

@bisnu548

Ай бұрын

He meant fantastical, right. Disney made leia a disney version of a princess who has magic powers is what he was trying to say

@Lundarian1

Ай бұрын

@@fr0ck360 It's RED!

Jesus man imagine twisting your brain into that much of a pretzel to defend the complete assassination of one of the most beloved characters ever. Nah he’s old guys, therefore it’s completely reasonable that he would consider murdering his nephew in his sleep 😂

@phonepunk7888

Ай бұрын

And he dies while taunting his nephew, who is screaming in rage at him from across the universe. Nice way to go.

I am a rookie firefighter. I am scared of fire and risking my peers lives. With training and experience, I learn to overcome this fear and trust my peers and their own decision making. I do this for over 30 years. One random day, I run away from a small fire and throw a gas tank to try to put it out. It burns down 30 blocks. Human error.

In fairness, Luke was all but assassinated in the previous movie even without appearing in it. There aren’t many ways to justify Luke up and abandoning all his friends and family other than ‘well, I guess he’s just shitty now’

@haku8135

Ай бұрын

Technically if he was doing something REALLY important, he COULD have had some reason for "Ok I really need to go somewhere, if you need me, here's a map." ..........BUUUUUUUUUUUT that really only works if he's established a Jedi Order, Luke would not just leave the galaxy without anyone to keep the peace. CLEARLY the new republic is not up to that fucking task, so the Jedi being literally a MYTH in just a few decades after a Jedi saves the entire galaxy from a pair of force using SITH, yeah that pretty much totally dries up that well.

@Jedioutcast

Ай бұрын

@@haku8135even then it’s like ok you can just do that shi on coruscant

@haku8135

Ай бұрын

@@Jedioutcast I'm talking about like SOMETHING really important that he HAS to go away and take care of. I don't know what that could be, I'm not saying this JJ Mystery Box isn't retarded, it is, I'm just saying it's POSSIBLE technically. In practice JJ's a terrible writer.

@jankostrhun8725

Ай бұрын

@comradestarbucks2726 From the position of You can come up with a TON of valid reasons why he packed up and left (but left the map). Maybe he was just investigating First Order to find out how to deal with them with the planet on the map being his base of operations. Maybe it was old jedi temple and he was meditating and finding out the way how to prevent some horrible future in his visions. Maybe he DID just barely survived some assassination attempt and this place was to help him secretly recover in some way. You can come up with many ways to make it make perfect sense if you try. Thou being wHollywoke hack probably makes it kidna difficult.

@jonbaxter2254

Ай бұрын

I still thought he was looking for something, that's why he was gone.

Can we purge the “they’re human, they made a mistake” argument from all conversations about media? What matters is the nature of the mistake and whether or not it’s in line with that character.

@Lemon_Inspector

Ай бұрын

The writers are just human, they made a mistake

@10JandS

Ай бұрын

​@@Lemon_Inspector Well, you're not wrong

@ImmortalComposer

Ай бұрын

Agreed. If a written character HAS to make a mistake, that mistake needs to make sense and be explained. As a writer, your job is to make sure this is done. You can say it's a mistake in judgement but that mistake needs a root cause. It's not an action with a coin flip, otherwise, Thanos would have snapped himself without explanation and the movie would have ended. Imagine that "Thanos made a mistake".

@phonepunk7888

Ай бұрын

He's literally not a human, he is a movie character, a space farm boy.

@bradleysaunders1730

Ай бұрын

Yeah it’s just poor lazy writing to say “oh he’s human” that’s not how story telling works, things are done for a reason, otherwise everything just becomes an unpredictable mess but then again that’s what TLJ was

Sure, Luke spent an entire movie trying to redeem dear old dad Space Goebbels, but as soon as his nephew begins fedposting in his dreams, Luke considers murdering Ben to be Plan A. God, what a clown movie. Thank goodness TLJ will supposedly become an underrated classic in ~3 years.

1. Growing older doesn’t just cause you to fundamentally change. 2. Change due to experiences and time are ok but for them to be this drastic said experiences should be shown

@donmega5202

Ай бұрын

The writers are at fault here, then. Not him for explaining that, yeah, you can change as you get older. I feel like I got his point time and time again, the team just wouldn't meet in the middle on the missing details part and be civil about it. They're just mad as fuck anymore and general shit talkers.

@hdl3044

Ай бұрын

@@donmega5202 he is definitely at fault because he couldn’t articulate that at all Secondly, he’s defending the film. If the film does not adequately explain and show his change then his character is not well written. Thereby making his argument entirely irrelevant

@kylekatarn5964

17 күн бұрын

Doing the writer's jobs for them with mental gymnastics. Yikes.

"look I know I went on a murder spree but it was a moment of weakness okay? I'm old and I'm only human it's fine" The fact he was nearly crying at the end jesus

@bad-people6510

Ай бұрын

See, Ronnie Defeo's mistake was being 23.

12:00 "a single moment of weakness" is not the same as A COMPLETE REVERSAL MORAL/ETHICS AND PAST BEHAVIOR

"Do you know how to FUNNY?" gets me every time.

Oh man; this brings me back. I remember listening to this debate when I was on a road trip and my family saw me in real time loosing it. I had to explain to one of them what I was listening to( my cousin also hated TLj) and he was like: “Folks will say the craziest things to justify bad writing”. Truer words were never said.

@jaieregilmore971

Ай бұрын

It still happens till this day unfortunately.

The funniest part is that if they mentioned that Mark Hamill didn't like the character he'd get hard stuck

@alosim1541

Ай бұрын

But then whenever you say that there’s always the asshole that’s like “well ACTUALLY mark Hamill then said he was wrong” as if Disney wasn’t paying him off or threatening legal action behind the scenes

@JasonX909

Ай бұрын

I'd like to axe him about that myself

8:00 "He DID!" Wolf: *QUOTE* it. Taking no BS, give facts or GTFO XD LOVE it!

If they have to explain their head canon excuses for things that aren't actually shown the film why can't they understand that in itself is a problem.

@phonepunk7888

Ай бұрын

He kept mentioning the slain students, as if that was in the film at all. That's one of my biggest problems with the movie, they entirely ignored the rest of the school.

@DaMaster012

Ай бұрын

Week, stupid people have feeling confused for thinking. They believe feeling IS thinking, and in arrogant unwillingness to part with those feelings, will try to come up with reasons to justify their feelings, even if it means fabricating crap that exists nowhere but their own head. Such is the solipsistic arrogance of subjectivism

Breaking this debate down like this really made me remember how much that guy was writing the movie *for* Disney. Filling in holes with head cannon and patching up what holes cant be fixed with "space wizard".

Love that part of 10:24 "Ok explain how its not against his character besides being old" Its not against his character cause he's old... "I LITERALLY JUST SAID NOT TO SAY: CAUSE HES OLD..."

Damn that Indy analogy really was prophetic wasn't it?

@HalfBrainGamers

Ай бұрын

Poor, Slightly Less Long Mauler was too naive back then.

People who think such argument makes sense probably didn't have nice grandparents... Or parents.

@happynihilist2573

Ай бұрын

or fiends, or acquaintances, or any human they know

@na5794

Ай бұрын

Well yeah those are old people, so they probably abandoned him, y’know, as a mistake. (Though with this guy, I wouldn’t consider it a mistake more.)

@urbanberndtsson

Ай бұрын

"I disagree" *refuses to elaborate*

years later i still remember this guy arguing about dead children on the ground of the new jedi temple...

@undertow5164

Ай бұрын

On my deathbed....

Here's another great line, when the "Not So Great Debate Guy" argued that the movie's "message" was more important than its story problems: Mauler: "Did you have any films you think are bad? I'm not saying you don't, just . . . what films do you think are bad? Or badly made?" Guest: "We were talking about Suicide Squad. I didn't like that." Mauler: "Sure. Well, Suicide Squad has an important message about coming together as a team, working hard and defeating an evil that is far a greater evil than maybe your own evils within you. That is a beautiful message, and I think it transcends any plot problems with the film." [long pause] Wolf bursts out laughing. Mauler: "That's what you're doing to us right now."

It's like Batman who has spared the Joker so many times, learns that Robin is going bad, so he decides to pull out the glock. He has NEVER pulled the Glock on ANYONE, not even against the Joker, yet he pulls it against Robin.

Well Wolf, have you ever considered Luke did what he did because he's old?

@donmega5202

Ай бұрын

The argument was people age and have further history that isn't explored, justifying why someone can change over time from their prior moral values. It's called being human, which was the only point he was trying to make. If anything, he was trying to find reason in the idea but it's just impossible for characters to develop effectively in that way if they're the ones you're biased towards and love. There needs to be further writing to explain that, which was the only point he should have made, but even then the butt buddy crew at EFAP would have shut him down.

@trevorthornley8835

Ай бұрын

​@@donmega5202 a 1 minute and 30 second scene can't explain what happened in 30 years of development. If you see a character that's portrayed one way in a trilogy and then the opposite in another film with barely an explanation, talk about whiplash.

@Soft_Ghost

Ай бұрын

@@donmega5202 If the character has changed their morality during the years, there must be events so important that it warrant at least a scene of its own, to fill the audience in. You can't just say he's completely different now, because he's old now and some shit happened. This is bad writing. The point of 'Human can change over time.' doesn't dispute that this is bad writing.

@frankvandorp2059

Ай бұрын

@@donmega5202 "Time passed, therefore he can be a completely different character with completely different values now without us having to explain in any way how he got there" is a pretty terrible argument. You can have any character do literally anything with that logic. No writing can ever be bad this way, no behavior can ever be out-of-character because you effectively insert "he changed his mind" every time you need to. Which means he HAS no character to begin with. And he wasn't "shut down" here. He got all the time to explain his reasoning here. The problem is simply that his reasoning made zero sense and was flawed in multiple aspects.

Nothing is safe from the Wolfman's claws. Even eon old strife from before the Pausing of Every Frame will be dragged back into the light for our stimulation and amusement.

@Nabekukka

Ай бұрын

O' Cosmic Chicken, thou art in Heaven, giveth to us our daily supply of spiders and rhino milk. Deliver us from movies that are about space wizards made for kids, and lead us into good rats.

@jeremybrimmer1990

Ай бұрын

Joy to the world

So....do people think Gandalf from Lord of the Rings should be weak because he's old? Like, people do know the old but wise master archetype exists for a reason, right? I mean that was what Obi-Wan was in the original trilogy? Do people think he should have been like Luke in The Last Jedi, telling Luke to go away and not training him whatso ever because of how things went with Anakin? The herculean leaps in logics people are willing to make in arguments to justify them liking a movie is kind of absurd.

@evernight1405

Ай бұрын

I remember a conversation with someone who told me that Luke character in the Last Jedi make sense because all old people grow up to be hopeless failures and than use both Obi-Wan and Yoda as examples.

@jeremybrimmer1990

Ай бұрын

"For the cause, comrade!!!" - feminism hates what you love 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆

@jaieregilmore971

Ай бұрын

@@evernight1405That’s dumb have we not watched the same movie.

@zigurdur92

4 күн бұрын

@@evernight1405They failed at doing their job, keep republic save, those children from dying at hands of Anakin, making Anakin a good jedi & falling for Palpatine.

Luke ChildkiIIer, King of the Porgs!

The argument of him doing these things due to being old, human, and seeing his mind turned, is just pure cope, he even tried coming up with his own head canon as to there being dead students on the ground

"being older comes with greater perspective" Yes, like "My nephew is going to be evil. Better take him out without questioning this any further"

Retracting a lightsaber when he's standing over someone means Luke got cold feet - not that he changed his mind. He had all the time during the way over to rethink it and stayed the course. Being face to face with his would-be victim is what actually changed his mind. This is the problem when hacks use cinematic language: they don't understand what they're signaling. They just blindly copy what they saw elsewhere.

The being “old” excuse should replace Jedi mind trick in universe. During the Tatooine Stormtrooper checkpoint scene in response to being asked about the droids Obi-Wan just points to himself and says “I’m old.” And the Stormtroopers are like “Alright, carry on.”

“There were bodies, I swear to god their were bodies” Even after all these years I remember that line.

@uhsund

Ай бұрын

Looking at the scene I might see one, but the quality of the clip isn't enough for me to say 100% there were bodies in that scene.

This made my brain want to retreat from everything. Maybe I'm just old.

@SiriusSphynx

Ай бұрын

Just don't commit any genocide

I have been waiting for this highlight for a long time The Not So Great Debate has so many potential highlight clips that could come out of it

Lol!!!I forgot about this cringe fleem lord you can hear the quivering rage in his voice.Thank you Wolf I needed the laughs today 😂

@the_absurd_hero

Ай бұрын

It didn't sound like rage; it sounded like he was about to cry

Some people will jump through some serious mental gymnastics if their ego depends on it.

“Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death at the end of everything I loved because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it (green light saber turns on)” Luke’s pure instinct in order to stop destruction is to kill?!? That’s not Luke! Compared to: 'Palpaltine had already turned his heart. Darth Vader brought destruction and pain and death at the end of everything I loved because of what he is, and for the entire movie I thought I could stop it (Proceeds to talk to Darth Vader).' These are different characters.

Wolf´s voice is insane. I just love hearing him speak. Much love!

This is the stuff of legends.

I just think of Stewie in family guy. "O, Reginald... I DISAGREE. HEHEHEE... Runs away."

The problem is that the character of Luke in TLJ simply doesn't gel with his actions, motivations and professed beliefs in the rest of the established lore and the movies that came before. You can claim that the man simply changed while he was off-screen, but that doesn't make the change any less jarring nor does it make for good character development or a more coherent storyline. "Time passed" isn't a good explanation for changes this radical. It's lazy, uninspired and borderline incompetent. "We couldn't come up with or bother to actually flesh out a sequence of events that would turn a stout idealist and optimist into a cranky, defeatist, bitter old recluse so let's just say time passed and sh!t happened". The opposite of brilliant, that. I can understand that, but understanding doesn't mean condoning or appreciating. I heavily dislike what they did to Luke and to me, it ruined anything that came after because they twisted the character into a pretzel for no good narrative reason. There were so many better ways to establish a tragic backstory for Kylo Ren that didn't involve morphing Luke into a cowardly backstabber that doesn't fit with his character and history. They gained nothing in that narrative other than "oh no he didn't" shock value, either. Anything they might possibly have set up with that narrative falls flat because it simply doesn't fit with who Luke is as a person. The whole hermit bit feels like a cheap callback to Yoda as well. Like all Jedi that fail in their cycle have to move to the swamp and become lizard milkers.

@a_fine_edition2746

Ай бұрын

It’s even worse because they’ve doubled down on the hopeless hermit archetype ever since. Obi-Wan in his own show became a despairing recluse who’d given up on his mission and had to be built back up into the Jedi he always was. Yoda has a short comic book series set between A New Hope and Empire, wherein he becomes a sad sack that wants to give up and tries to ignore Obi-Wan’ Force Ghost because he feels that he failed everyone and that he makes everything worse. They’re taking the old archetypal wise masters and twisting them into these fragile and failure-ridden losers who want to give up but then get some manner of pep talk or reminder of what they used to be. It’s frankly more lazy and repetitive than it is insulting.

@sayLeotardbutsayitChinese

Ай бұрын

Wow... I never realized they were trying to make Luke the new Yoda. Maybe because they failed so hard. Good lord, even that was an intricate key-jangle all along. Years on and my opinion of the sequels somehow continues lower.

@AndragonLea

Ай бұрын

@@sayLeotardbutsayitChinese I'm not knocking any of the authors, but the actual writing leaves a lot to be desired and I'm not even a writer. If casual fans can see the glaring issues, the material should really have gone back to the writer's desk.

@AndragonLea

Ай бұрын

@@a_fine_edition2746 I really don't like that they did this. I understand that they want their new characters to be the stars of the show, but what's so bad about a traditional passing on of the mantle? You don't need to tear down existing characters to give the spotlight to another. Obi Wan was a pretty good example of this and Yoda as well, in his own way. He lost the fight against Palpatine and retreated into obscurity so he'd be available to teach Luke once the time came, not because he's a sad loser looking to die in a wet hole out of self-pity.

Luke had potentially MORE to lose in return of the Jedi and still didn’t give up. He was at risk of losing his sister, the entire rebel alliance being destroyed, and himself being a slave to the emperor and he STILL didn’t give up.

The thing is, we don't see Luke's character progress, what brought him to considering killing his sleeping nephew was the better option than trying to save him from Snoke's influence.

Respect to you, Wolf, and the Longman. This could have easily become a shouting contest. But, you give people enough time, so that they end up tripping over themselves.

This is what happens when you try to be logical with an illogical person.

@bloodysimile4893

Ай бұрын

Mauler and Wold did a job to avoid falling into the guy OLD experience of dragging people down to their level.

I really like the bit at the start with the man very reluctantly conceding that it would be preferable for things to be better rather than worse.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it think

The best part of the defense arguments is...when Luke wanted to kill Ben, he was not old, grey and dejected. What made him go to that extreme? That first seminal moment for him that's supposed to turn him into a bitter old man, doesn't quite have the driver for it.

Ah, an oldie but goldie.

@Lundarian1

Ай бұрын

The inciting incident that sparked EFAP, The Don, Phred the Cosmic chicken, that laid the cosmic egg, which birthed Lord Tonald - the White Samauri, hater of cooked carrots, and inventor of the Intellecutal Gaming communityas well as Artificial Barriers of Blockage, long may the 'tism flow.

Ah Bigideas and the Not-so-great debate, a true EFAP classic.

I feel dumber now, having heard this. How anyone can defend the random hair that grew from Luke's butt to suddenly make murder an option is unreal. I need a nap.

The thing is, this exact "moment of weakness" already happened in ROTJ! It was letting Vader and the Emperor get to him, taking up his lightsaber, and beating Vader into submission in a fit of rage. AND HE IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZES HIS MISTAKE! It's the lynchpin of his arc. Making him do it again is an enormous regression of character.

Part of what I found so strange about TLJ is the contradiction between text and subtext. The theme of the text (as stated by the heroes) is "failure is the best teacher", yet no one is shown gaining anything by learning from their failures. Meanwhile "let the past die, kill it if you have to" is spoken by the bad guy (twice) and framed as a bad thing, but the movie relentlessly kills the past for its entire runtime. The thematic contradiction was confusing.

Listening to this actually gave me an idea of how you could still make Luke the grouchy old hermit in TLJ without him trying to kill Kylo. Make it where Luke is too determined to save him. Have him ignore the warnings from other Jedi telling him that Ben is too far gone, cause Luke still feels good in him and doesn't want to kill his nephew, just for Snoke to finally be able to fully turn him and have Kylo destroy the new Jedi order. That way Luke would still feel at fault without forcing him to consider something he'd never do

You know, when i was a child, i put my hand on a hot stovetop and went owy, that hurts, gosh, i shouldn't do that again Then when i turned 60, i magically forgot that lesson, saw a hot stovetop, and touched it out of curiosity for how itd feel I thought thats how it was for everyone

Flying princesses, arrogant generals, and being old in the Disney Fanatical Star Wars Universe are the only things that bring me joy in life

"Is he not allowed to fear" Yeah he had that arc in the og then in the third film he grew super confident and stared death right in the face many times even putting his own life in the hands of his farther in hopes that vader would turn good the most evil man in the empire. In tlj why didn't Luke just sit with Kylo and explain what he saw I'm his vision or whatever or even not tell Kylo but do whatever he can to guide him away from Snoke and prepare him to fight Snoke instead

Can't wait when i become older so i can just hit a factory reset on my character development

@yetanotherspuart3993

Ай бұрын

How old does one have to be for society to be okay with an Old going on a crazy murder rampage? I might just be there.

Your contributions are so fun to listen to again, Wolf. These were good times. TLJ is what led me to Mauler and EFAP, so this is downright nostalgic.

i remember when this got released, the full thing was so much worse and really made me understand and like Mauler and Wolf back in the day. i have no idea what they thought they could learn/achieve from that very special debate, but it's clear they wanted to talk specifics and there was a point in the discussion where the other guy blatantly forgets NORMAL things from the film and defended himself by saying he hasnt seen the film recently. it was such an eye opening moment for me, some people dont even remember the plots of films they like. *mind blown

With age and wisdom you would think he would be LESS likely to freak out and consider killing his nephew.

Ohh shit... this was an headache and a half...

The Not So Great Debate is THE Greatest debate.

Mark Hamil also disagreed with Luke's portrayal on the sequels. He said the Luke in the sequels made no sense.

“It’s an editing mistake WHAT” Bro chill 😂😂

"I didn't say I disagree" I would've left the call at that point. This is proof that people don't listen to the words coming out of their own fucking mouths. Holy fuck.

The only ways I can possibly come to this guy's aid are 1) Vader is Luke's father, Kylo is his nephew. It's not outside the realm of possibility that he would be more invested in redeeming his direct relation than his sister's son 2) With age comes wisdom, and sometimes that wisdom is the discernment to accept that a situation is unsalvageable sooner than a younger person might. That said, the film doesn't explore either of those concepts, so it's still just filling in the gaps

@RipOffProductionsLLC

Ай бұрын

Except he successfully saved Vader, which would reinforce any ideas about trying to redeem people no matter how far they've gone.

@Soft_Ghost

Ай бұрын

Because Kylo is related to him, I feel like Luke would spend even more effort to make sure he doesn't turn evil. If I were to write Luke this would be his flaw. Savior complex. Luke would try too hard make Kylo his successor, that it push him away instead.

Thank you for bringing this back, Wolf. I still enjoy listening to some of these debates with Just Write and Major Lee.

@DoffysGlasses

Ай бұрын

The Major Lee debate is so hard to listen to. He's probably the most infuriating person they ever debated, at the very least, he's the one I can stand to listen to the least.

I thought this EFAP lore was hidden away, am I wrong?

@yetanotherspuart3993

Ай бұрын

It has been on MooLer for two years now.

Wolf is my spirit animal. Im not a youtuber so dont get to argue these morons vocally. Its cathartic to hear Wolf shut it down with the same annoyance i have lol

Whether or not Luke thought Kylo Ren was going to be some terrible evil, Vader was already a terrible evil who'd go on to destroy countless more lives if he lived, yet Luke risked everything to try to redeem him. If he was willing to do that, why was he unwilling to risk everything to save his nephew? Especially since he wasn't nearly so far gone as Vader at that point. By the way, I'm 50 and had a lot of bad shit happen to me, but I still wouldn't kill someone I cared for until there was literally no other choice.

Fun thought experiment. Imagine a world where being old gives you a valid excuse for homicide. Now with that rule set, how many people would survive to old age?

Age didn't effect Obi-Wan or Yoda. They had more motivation to turn away from the Jedi than Luke could ever have and they didn't.

Oh dear lord this took me back, this was simultaneously the most amazing and the most hair pulling frustation inducing thing back in the day. Wolf, your daily reminder of good to have you back. You massive.

Luke refuses to kill Vader who had been killing throughout the galaxy for decades because he believed there was still good in him.....Luke tries to kill his nephew in his sleep when he hasn't killed anybody......How do can you not see the issue with that.....wow.

Dude: Claims that the movie had a profound emotional effect upon his very soul Also Dude: "What scene? When did this happen? Who did what again?" Disnoids and their Fanatical Star Wars Universe have been a detriment to...well, everything.

I miss hearing Wolf more often.

I have no idea how you guys spent as long as you did with him. I could barely make it to 30 minutes on the original video and relistening to this one got my blood pressure up. Bravo, gents, I couldn't do it.

All I know is that I don't want to know about this guy grandpa AND I surely hope he doesn't have nephews or grandchildren 😅

Boy sounded like he was about to cry. I think he knew his position was indefensible.

Why did they invite a child on to argue and expect any common sense to be had

@donmega5202

Ай бұрын

Because they have nothing else to do but talk about Star Wars, Zack Snyder films sucking, or Last of Us 2 being shit. Nobody wants to get on to argue with them because they're an echo chamber of buds who objectively stick up for one another and do so with constant bias towards their own opinions.

@GaldenX

Ай бұрын

@@donmega5202 So you agree then that it was because of old age that Luke tried to kill his nephew? 🤭

I am convinced the guy talking started crying near the end, and I almost felt bad. Almost

Honestly, I don't know how MauLer and Wolf indulged this guy as long as they did. He's so clearly scrambling and "arguing" from such a hollow yet emotional level the entire time.

The Not So Great Debate has become the Great Example of what you shouldn’t use for debating in critical thinking/public debate classes.

Bruh, Luke had the entire galaxy to lose if he failed to turn Vader back to Anakin.... that's way more to lose than a fledgling jedi order.

It's amazing how people will look for any morsel of truth within their own delusions before at all considering that they may be wrong, specifically in cases where it's just undeniable.

I remember this from years ago, when I was in high school. I would listen to this all the time! Welcome back Wolf 😊

I love how his argument is that being old automatically equals more experience. There are plenty of elderly idiots out there stuck in their own ways who never learn or grow. He’s conflating age with wisdom and applying it to TLJ. Even if that was the argument then Luke did the complete opposite. A seasoned more experienced Luke would’ve reflected on his past experiences (redeeming his long gone dark side father in the OT) and LEARNED from them

“He’s old” Luke in the flashback wasn’t the old hermit we see throughout the TLJ. It was grand master Luke ffs.