Charix is an 0/17 because the strongest base creature in historic is the 16/16 greatwurm. So this cleanly walls that.

That's the most heated argument I've witnessed on LR

@stoolyman

3 жыл бұрын

I was enthralled in that discussion, absolutely loved it!

@silpheedTandy

3 жыл бұрын

i'm thinking that Marshall will be vindicated in a few month's time when LSV decides that it's not actually an A ;)

@jbuzzcuzz9728

3 жыл бұрын

It was a good discussion but I think Marshall is a bit too pessimistic. Yes retreat is bad if you miss land drops or are too far behind but that describes almost every card except wraths. Retreat is a card that gets exponentially better as the game goes especially if you build around it and there are a ton of tools in the set to make it nasty. Even scour the wastes is insane with it and that card is mediocre.

@Hundo_Mo

3 жыл бұрын

Those damn Felidars

@ygaudreault

3 жыл бұрын

@@jbuzzcuzz9728 The biggest prob I see with the card is that you HAVE to cast it early for it to be good. Turn 8 while you behind in top deck mode it's a 4 mana do nothing for possibly a fews turns unless you top deck lands.

"Did you try playing it in a deck with a bunch of lands" - haha

@silpheedTandy

3 жыл бұрын

i know. when LSV said that, i felt "ouch, that stings! poor Marshall!"

@matiasc003

3 жыл бұрын

Well, he was right haha. That card is insane.

Review starts at 6:32

Best limited reviews around IMO, and honestly, it's not even because these are excellent and educated magic players. The actual discourse and chemistry between Marshall and Luis is definitely real, the discussions are logical and constructive, and the debates are healthy and in good faith. Great job as always guys!

Another advantage not mentioned about Felidar Retreat is that is completely splashable, 3W is crazy.

One thing they missed about Ashaya is that with it in play all your creatures entering the battlefield trigger landfall

@alphabetsupes

3 жыл бұрын

Nontoken (i.e. you can't go literal infinite with scute swarm) but yes.

I'm with Marshall about the Felidar Retreat discussion

Been a podcast listener for a few years, first time watching the show on video and I must say it’s a great addition!

I enjoy these so much, thank you for the great content :)

Thanks for the update and insite on this set.

Extremely good episode, really interesting discussions on the mechanics!

I did find a good home for Nahiri's Lithomancy when I picked one up 5th or 6th pick in pack 3 after 1st picking an ancient greenwarden as it was a good source of card draw in that situation.

Marshal and Lenard hitting the ball out the park with this one!

Confounding Conundrum's text really does read like a limerick or a sing-song riddle. A+ meta flavour haha!

Felidar Retreat is most certainly a bomb. It feels so hopeless being on the other end of it.

@Slapdab

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if Marshall lost with it

@fenzelian

3 жыл бұрын

Jack Friend Yeah it sounds like he had played with it three times and one or two of those times were just bad beats.

Dang, up real early this week! Thanks for all the hard work!

I love maddening Cacophany with the return an instant or sorcery wizard and the return a card with kicker plant as well

Thanks for the review

Loving the back and forth on Felidar Retreat. I think Marshall's making some pretty good points; you don't want to be top decking it when you're behind. Card is still pretty good though

@PM-gf1nj

3 жыл бұрын

18:47

@SlasheTG

3 жыл бұрын

Card is obscene. He's played it, but he has not played against it

@WontonTV

3 жыл бұрын

I think it's a bit better than Marshall says but he has a point: Landfall doesn't just mean "once per turn". After T4, you typically average 1 land every 2 turns maybe.

Just played my first few Zendikar Drafts on Arena and went 6-0 / 7-0 respectively thanks to your reviews. Just wanted to say thanks! :D

Gotta back LSV up on the Ethiopian food. Besides being tasty and inexpensive, it's a great place to eat for a vegan/vegetarian. Traditional Ethiopian food doesn't really use eggs or dairy so if there's no meat in a dish, it's vegan. That means every Ethiopian restaurant has 3-6 hearty vegan dishes made from spiced lentils, cabbage, potato, etc. served with injera.

@GodwynDi

3 жыл бұрын

And delicious. First time I ever went to an Ethiopian restaurant was because a vegan friend brought me there

@52:53 lol, when LSV makes puns that take a few seconds for them to register in my own brain, those are the best puns, haha. Ben Stark would be so disgusted!

1:16:40 the life link clause of taborax single handedly cost me a game. The board was mega stalled but I could never attack despite having a superior ground force because it would turn on the lifelink and I couldn't race in the air. After N turns opponent eventually drew enough removals to manually enable the lifelink and I just lost.

LSV, you really need to have Marshall play some D&D with you. I'd be curious what type of character he'd roll up.

There have been games I really felt like retreat could not dig me out of and it did. Definitely an A.

I think “choice land” is a good name for the new double sided lands

LSV is right about retreat. Every time somebodyplays this card in my games, that player always wins. Even if they were behind when playing. It takes very little for it to get out of control.

@guybrushthreepwood8174

2 жыл бұрын

And doesn't seem to be a lot of enchantment removal in this set that are cards you ever play in best of 1

Nahiri's Lithoforming with Phylath, World Sculptor made some opponents concede on the spot!

I'm loving this set

Ashaya also triggers landfall on every creature you play, correct? Would this bump up the grade from an A?

It's worth mentioning that greenwarden can replay DFC spell lands, possibly even letting you pick them up and recast them. magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/zendikar-rising-release-notes-2020-09-10

@TwoCatsinaTrenchcoat

3 жыл бұрын

Just to clarify for everyone, you CAN'T cast the spell side from the graveyard. "If an effect allows you to play a land or cast a spell from among a group of cards, you may play or cast a modal double-faced card with any face that fits the criteria of that effect. For example, if Sejiri Shelter / Sejiri Glacier is in your graveyard and an effect allows you to play lands from your graveyard, you could play Sejiri Glacier. That effect doesn't allow you to cast Sejiri Shelter. "

I got a Omnath Pack 1, Pick 1 and managed to build it around a green white landfall deck and it was glorious. Picked up 7 doubled faced lands, two of them blue and two of them red, so I was able to play only one mountain and one island with 2 reclaim the wastes. So even with 3 sources of red and blue, when I drew my extra sources, I could just play the spell. Also just playing a 21 land, 14 land deck is disgusting. Those flip cards are nuts. I cruised to an easy 7 win draft.

@TehFhqwghad

3 жыл бұрын

I also landed omanth turn 4 on curve, game 1

You forgot to mention that ashaya makes your creatures trigger landfall

Great discussions.

Just wanted to point out that in casual American English, "Taborax, Hope's Demise" is a homophone of "Taborax hopes to mise," which is exactly what he does.

Ben Stark is in complete agreement with LSV on Legion Angel.

Hey guys! Great content as ever, thank you. Have you ever graded some card A+? Witch card was it?

@GodwynDi

3 жыл бұрын

They graded one or two A+ in this video

@daviddutra1559

3 жыл бұрын

@@GodwynDi really? just finished the video and all i remember is A- and B+

@GodwynDi

3 жыл бұрын

@@daviddutra1559 Zarosh they said A/A+ and one near the middle but having trouble finding it

@daviddutra1559

3 жыл бұрын

@@GodwynDi LSV thought about A+ on the legendary ub rogue, but they settled it at A

1:17:26 when I read this card after opening it I let out a good chuckle, definitely good meme

Card pretty much reads "Don't die on the turn you play this and you win, also you get a 2/2 for chump blocking sometimes" and its somehow not insane. You have to be so far behind for Felidar retreat to be bad otherwise you just take some damage and slowly pull back on each following turn with an additional 2/2 or make your board huge with counters.

Felidar Retreat is just bonkers

take a good rest, LSV!

the fact that LSV isnt just known as sleepy in the magic world is baffling

I think Marshall criminally undervalued Felidar retreat, and having after played it himself 3times. Sure it can be slow and not immediately game-breaking but it will win the game. Not every A-grade bomb has to be a Baneslayer angel or Bogardan Hellkite. Not to mention you play Hellkite and kill some of stuff and then opponent casts pacifism. Opponent can't stop Felidar retreat. Enchantment destruction is not main decked in limited. Slow but unstoppable.

@wynrussell4105

3 жыл бұрын

Well, there is Feed the Swarm in this set, very maindeckable, common enchantment/creature removal in Black...

@Christoff070

3 жыл бұрын

@@wynrussell4105 true, but depending how many you play (life loss factored in), you still need to have the one or two copies and not have used them already. Also as it's sorcery speed worst case scenario Felidar retreat still nets some counters or a 2/2, which you wouldn't get if it was a creature.

IMHO Marshall is correct about Felidar Retreat. Lands are less than half your deck. If you never missed land drops, & have an extra land on turn 5 you might be behind at that point. Likely will only trigger every other turn (less than 50% land draw rate), so not a landslide. I had it in sealed & it was only helpful in half the games. B is fair since it is so situational. I would much rather have Luminarch by far than this card. BTW, I used to draft MTG in Valhalla's in Wheat Ridge back in the day!

Thanks for the early show! Always great to hear both of your opinions on the new set. Any chance of a M21 sunset show at some point? Curious on the overall opinion on the set. I was never able to really grok the set, always felt like my decks were a bit sub-par.

1:18:29 100% agree with lsv there.

Luis is making me sleep with all this yawning!

@silpheedTandy

3 жыл бұрын

it's contagious, i know haha. but i'm glad that Luis still is giving his time to make this content for us, despite being so short on sleep

@deraxtmorder6397

3 жыл бұрын

Being a father takes away sleep, huh?

I definitely overrated Relic Robber in power level after playing with it a bunch. C+ seems definitely right. I felt like it was B/B- to start but a 2/2 for 3 in this format usually can only swing in once unless your opponent is very much behind.

Yasharn stops: -Merfolk Windrobber from sac/drawing a card. -Kazuul's Fury from sac/flinging. -Skyclave Shadowcat from saccing other creatures. -Roiling Regrowth can't sac lands to cast. -Nahiri's Lithoforming can't sac lands to cast. -Linvala can't sacrifice for your party. -Spare Supplies can't sac for its other card. -Relic vial can't sac creatures for cards. -Myriad construct - I think, can't resolve its second ability if its targetted. So a lot of niche situations - but definitely stuff out there you'll be happy it blocks, if it comes up. Probably Windrobber, Relic Vial, Roiling Regrowth, and Spare supplies most common to block.

After getting wrecked by felidar retreat multiple times I think the card is an A+

@kirang9077

3 жыл бұрын

Marshall doesn’t know what he is talking about. Knowing his draft strategy which is very linear, he probably didn’t maximise the power of Felidar retreat and that’s why he only gave it a B+.

@kyleledermann2473

3 жыл бұрын

@@kirang9077 no disrespect to marshall because hes a great dude, but honestly watching his drafts it seems like he's about my level. I honestly appreciate that though because you get the everyman vs the pro in these discussions and LSV isn't always right. I use limited resources as a baseline to understand the cards, then I watch numot draft because he's a pretty risky drafter and the volume he plays is absurd. Then I end up able to draft a solid deck for me to pilot into the ground haha. Felidar retreat in any deck with 18+ lands and 13+ creatures has been an absolutely unstoppable force for me. I had it in a clerics deck with two of the u common whenever u gain life for the first time make a 1/1. Deck was busted. Had a turn in gw where I had retreat and scute in play and kicked that search for 2 everything gets 2 +1/1 counters. Was a bonkers turn. Haha. This set has been my favorite draft since dominaria.

I think Orah is better than you rate it because there are a couple of sac outlets that make him insane (Relic Vial being the most thematic in the cleric/life gain deck)

Marshall “Fake Gamerboi” Sutcliffe

I find it hilarious that they more often put cards in the "B+/A- range" than in the "B/B+ range."

@GodwynDi

3 жыл бұрын

This is the rare/mythic rates and those tend to be decent in limited

The og cowards can't block warriors was like an unplayable 7 drop aggro card though. So it was a clever but bad joke, this time they made it playable at least.

Who cast Narcolepsy on Luis?

If someone said to me cowards cant block warriors after id just got screwed or flooded, id be banned from the store.

Pretty sure its Lith-o not Lithe- o for the forming.

I drafted Maddening Cacophony with 4 Ruin Golems and still couldn't win that many games. Agree with grade.

Aspirant is A- minimum in constructed and limited.

Narcomeba LSV ;) just as a reminder that even he can be wrong. With Marshall on this one

1:05:21 okay Luis I see you

Instead of a red or white inscription, they gave red and white an off-cycle dual land in needleverge/pillarverge pathway. Seems not worth

13:25 Think archbishop...

Deck the halls with bows of holly...

51:50 I have actually kicked this in the dimir mill deck and won by milling my opponent

Saying angels doublestrike is a downside becouse it makes it harder to oneshot the opponent seems wrong considering how many white cards that trigger on each instance of lifegain I would much rather have it as a 2/6 DS than a 4/6. The absurd amount of lifegain triggers the card can generate I would even say that it's a B in it self but an easy build around A

First Card reviewed starts @6:30

"Hey kid. 😃 Have some +1+1 counters."

Im confused how you rated the green inscription lower than the blue one. The green inscription is objectively the best of the cycle. Its the cheapest one. 5 mana is a lot less than 8. You wont get to kick the blue one nearly as often so it doenst make sense to rate it from that perspective.

Seen this vid a few times while MTGA

Did Marshall ever try Ethiopian food again?

I'm absolutely lost in this format. 0-3 and 1-3 in my drafts so far. Is it aggro? Is it grindy? What's going on? I need some high-level advice for how to draft this set. 😭

@lesrestall807

3 жыл бұрын

Well, my general rule in any draft is to remain completely open up to pack 3 and treat removal as premium picks. When you have a card that basically "destroys target creature" in a draft round, you have the power to decide what creatures of yours get to trade in combat.

1:05:26 "I guess we haven't gotten to the red one yet" Funny, neither did WOTC and then they just called it a day like "Alright, we have to hurry, there is a metagame to ruin"

From the little I've seen, Angel of Destiny and Scute Swarm both seem busted in Standard.

@nachocheese2823

3 жыл бұрын

Scute swarm has a very degenerate combo that wizards probably wont ban until a month before rotation

@nikmidclayton5933

3 жыл бұрын

@@nachocheese2823 lol. Def not

@PopcornBunni

3 жыл бұрын

@@nachocheese2823 What do you mean all the deck's lands cheated into play and 34000 power turn 5 is exactly how Richard Garfield intended the game to be played

@Lightmane

3 жыл бұрын

@@nachocheese2823 It's just another poorly designed card. This is what happens when you make overly powerful cards. They know they can always ban them, if things get out of control, which is lazy, which is why standard has been ridiculous for a while now and has had lots of bans. They'd rather make a card too powerful, knowing they can ban it, rather than too weak, knowing people will complain, because "kids" want power cards, which is the only reason they created the "mythic" rarity type; to make super powerful cards for kids. I've both won games with just 2 mana in play and lost games with my opponent having just 2 mana in play. That's insane. 1 guy beat me with mono white with 1 mana and 1 guy beat me on a mull to 3 and I almost won a game once on a mull to 4. The game is just ridiculous now.

@Lightmane

3 жыл бұрын

@@PopcornBunni Hah. Perfect.

Marshall I love you man, but you're wrong about Felidar Retreat. The card is definitely an A

I do have one more case where I actually consider putting in tutors, even if they are a bit expensive: If I have a ridiculous bomb. In Theros Beyond Death I did play an Idyllic Tutor exactly once, and that was when I had a Kiora Bests the Sea God. I did have some Banishing Lights for the fail case where I'd already drawn my bomb, but being able to pay three mana to have an extra copy of my "I win the game" bomb with the fail case of a removal spell made it worth it in my book. Same with the tutor here: If I think I'll cast it for three mana most of the time, occasionally for two mana, and I have a fail case of four mana, but it gets me my Agadeem's Awakening if we're getting to the late game and I can afford to not affect the board for that one turn because I can do some bad trades and know that I'll be fine because I'll just get all my creatures back, with an appropriate fail case of grabbing a removal spell or something... I might play the card in that deck. Maybe. So they were saying there's a build around aspect to it, and I think there's a second build around case worth considering, where I only have the normal 1-2 Packbeasts and probably won't get full party, but the card I can get is so good that I'm willing to play the tutor as a second copy for three mana and I'm willing to accept the fail case of 4-5 mana (because I'm tutoring for something that good). Anyway, super fringe case, I probably won't pick that card unless I've already got such a ridiculous bomb (maybe I P1P1 Agadeem's Awakening, which is an example I like because it's black and it plays reasonably well with an expensive tutor because of how it catches you up, into getting passed this by a player who knows not to first pick it, and I have the whole draft to think ahead to the fact that I have two copies of my bomb and I can even kind of build around it), it probably won't come up, but if it does I'll probably win a game or two because it all just lined up.

Leyline tyrant should just be read as 4/4 flyer, spending turn 4 and 12 total mana like lsv's scenario then getting into the roil kicked on you is so game losing its never worth doing unless desperate if vs exile or bounce because it will just lose those games close to 100% of the time when your bomb rare gets hit by a common.

Everyone is commenting about the Felidar Retreat debate. Can't we just agree it's an A- ? Card is basically a game winner at parody or when you're ahead. If you're behind and opponent has a fast/tempo/curve-out deck it may be too slow. But like LSV said, you're never passing this P1P1 unless that rare situation where foil even more busted card is also in your pack. You're not taking an uncommon over this card P1P1. So blah blah quadrant theory, sounds like an A- to me. Amirite guys?

the terms are in fact interchangeable

anyone know what Marshall is drinking? it looks good.. . iced tea?

@jeremymorley5670

3 жыл бұрын

Marshall has often expressed his obsession with Arnold Palmers (Half iced tea half lemonade)

I don't think I've ever seen a single card leading to a draw like LSV points out with Scourge of the Skyclaves and 2HG.

I don't know what Marshall expects out of life. Maybe once you get old enough you no longer have the patience for everything not being 100% perfect all the time with a cherry on top, but down here in what we call reality, Felidar Retreat is unbelievable bomb that is extremely unlikely to end up with a loss for it's controller.

@JeanValjean875

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm. I watched a streamer draft on Arena who lost two games in which he resolved it. It's a good card, but like Marshall said it's tough if you're behind on board when you cast it.

Wait, there's no red and white Inscriptions? Are you f***ing kidding me? I guess having good flexible value spells isn't part of the red&white color pie anymore...also, they "couldn't think of any good designs"? Yeah, right...I think I could slap together a half dozen on the spot.

Poor guys, need a sleep 🙁

Sutcliffe is right about felidar retreat. The card is insane but if you don't have ways to get more than one landfall trigger a turn it can be too slow. A B+ is a really good grade and the card is close to a bomb. But it has drawbacks and bombs don't have as many drawbacks.

Aske your Simic Combine Scientist if Verazol is right for YOU!.

@clelvis225

3 жыл бұрын

my dad started taking it now he's got crab arms but he no longer has erectile dysfunction so he said it was a fair trade

@joaomarcosdeaquino1598

3 жыл бұрын

@@clelvis225 Hhaeeahaehae...

Marshall is just wrong about Felidar Retreat imo. Wingmate Roc, which is also an A, has not only a lower floor, but a lower ceiling too.

get some rest boyz! yall workin too hard!

The #metoo movement has crossed the line with these botposts!! :)

Marshall is point on the retreat, played against it and beat it even with a stalled board multiple times with it getting activated repeatedly. The format is just too aggressive for it to be A super star

@Tamiss

3 жыл бұрын

It's busted, there are plenty ways to grossly abuse it too.

Luis if you buzzed your hair you would look a little like Alex Jones! Lol you could make that a bit, against wotc lizard people hoarding cards from the reserve list.....

@bakerd122

3 жыл бұрын

Alex Jones is a garbage human for a variety of reasons and I wouldn’t invite the comparison

Lotus Cobra, single handedly solving global warming..... Edit: (Hands?)

Marshall always says that unless you mill every card in your opponent's library, milling doesn't do anything. This seems like a weird statement since the same can be said inversely. If I mill your whole library, it doesn't matter that you dealt 19 damage to me. It seems the question should be "does mill have enough support in this meta". Answer that question and I'll be grateful.

@jakeapplegate6642

3 жыл бұрын

Matt Mackey they also say life is a resource and you’re right that it doesn’t matter how much damage you do to your opponent if it doesn’t kill them. Playing a card that only mills cards are the equivalent of a burn spell that only goes to the dome and (here is the key part) neither one has an effect on the board state. That’s what they mean by not doing anything because it doesn’t effect the board.

@helderboymh

3 жыл бұрын

That's not fully true as you do play significantly differently when you are at 10 then when you are at 3. You might be spend a removal on a 3/3 even though you can block it with a 4/4 because your are worried you Blokker gets killed.

@A2Jmusic

3 жыл бұрын

You got it! the only point of damage that REALLY matters is the last one, the only time mill REALLY matters is when you can't draw a card, just like 9 poison counters don't end the game. With that said, yeah I wanna kill that Relic Crab ASAP, if I'm playing Feed The Swarm I don't wanna go to 5 life. It depends on the situation. Playing an X burn spell to put your oppo to 1 life when you have no other ways to kill them is basically doing nothing. Traumatize (mill half deck) is a waste of a card slot if you dont build around that strat. Also if you work way too hard and burn the candle at both ends you end up yawning on youtube :P

@jakeapplegate6642

3 жыл бұрын

AJ Amherst mill has other downsides like in standard if you mill your opponent for 8 and hit an uro you’re gonna have a bad time.

@A2Jmusic

3 жыл бұрын

@@jakeapplegate6642 haha good point, although this is Limited Resources ;)

Take a drink every time Luis yawns! Dude, get some SLEEP!!!

1:15:00 Jesus Christ Luis! At least put your hand in front of your mouth ^^

Marshall, 2 Bs is a threesome. I agree it's better than just an A.

why are you both sooo tired and still record ? saw more yawns than cards :D thx for the review :D

If someone’s got the spare time, timestamping all the cards ranked A

Mill is disgusting in draft, and I have lost to it either by actually being milled or just not being able to play anything and it's not fun.