I think ultimately they're gonna do something different because I just do not think this had the effect they wanted it to have. They made everything 2 minutes but fundamentally didn't change how most jobs actually work, so some jobs feel fine and and delaying buffs is totally fine, but other jobs massively struggle with this. Even reaper, a job made for Endwalker, struggles with this, it needs nearly constant uptime so it can double enshroud every two minutes. In some ways I think they know how inflexible jobs are. Boss hitboxes are massive because some jobs just cannot deal with downtime, their rotation gets thrown all out of whack, and then they can't burst properly. This design shift was meant to bridge the gap between casuals and more experienced players but arguably its widened the gulf. People that were bad at their rotations are still bad, only they now lose out on substantially more damage than they lost when raid buffs were more staggered out. Occasional mistakes get amplified. It pushes a very "play perfectly or don't mentality" which is the exact opposite thing they wanted to do. They even explicitly said they wanted to make players feel like they don't have to play perfectly, yet that's exactly what this 2 minute buff window does. Fortunately, I think the controversy with the tier is gonna get the devs to focus on what's going on, how they got here, and where they can go to alleviate the problems.

@castlevaniasonataofarealsh3222

Жыл бұрын

iirc a big part of reaper optimization is that you naturally start drifting from party buffs at 10 minutes, just because at 2.5 gcd you literally can't build gauge fast enough. And every single time you lose a gcd, you lose 2 minutes on that timer.

@Gamemaster-64

Жыл бұрын

@@castlevaniasonataofarealsh3222 Oof and I'm casual so I don't know the true rotation so I didn't know but, I don't like the attack buff is combine with their shroud proc. I got into a duty with another reaper and they go I or you(forgot who was first) to go first and I'm like I don't even care for the buff, I'm just using it for the one attack which gives me 50 points for enshroud.

@peen2804

Жыл бұрын

I agree with all of this, a personal issue I have is that to me the entire purpose of having entirely different classes and play styles is, well, to have entirely different classes and play styles. The current job systems feel like all jobs are being funneled into a specific play style, you just get there in slightly different ways by hitting slightly different buttons in a slightly different order. I understand having broader archetypes for consistency but idk, I think it leans too far in one direction with almost every job being a variant of 1 archetype.

I like the sound of 30 second power points. It's a lot easier to delay a buff for a 30 second tick than a 2 minute tick

Thank you. I thought I was the only one thinking that bosses do everything in their power to mess with buff windows

As a BLM this 2 min burst windows made the LL drifting a lot awful, at least in my experience. It's really sad that we lost the decision making of when to use LL, rn it just feels like pot LL on CD and pray you don't have to leave, or hold your LL to optimize uptime at the cost of missing a bunch of, or the entire, burst window >.>

@rebeccasheng620

Жыл бұрын

Homogenization of buffs is truly a horrible direction imo. Free style blm/sam is way more fun for a reason

@Siforex2435

Жыл бұрын

@@rebeccasheng620 yes it is *cries in P2S LL*

@xXLordYggdrasillXx

Жыл бұрын

This is also made worse by the fact that LL have restrictions on them that the rest of the party does not share at all. Everyone else mainly has to worry about standing together in one spot to hit everyone with their buffs. BLM has to think about standing in a confined space for the entire buffwindow. So there are way too many situations in which everyone else is really happy with a buff window and you as a BLM sit there and either press LL together with everyone else and move out of it halfway through or you have to delay which means drifting your LL CD out of buff windows for the rest of the fight. LL being 30 seconds long also makes this worse since almost all other jobs can fit their burst in 20 seconds or less. So BLM is often times the odd one out and it sucks. I personally would give LL two chages with a 60 second CD and a 15 second duration. That way you would get the same overall LL uptime over a fight and you could use them the same way we are now if the fight allows for it. But it would give it additional flexibility. You could only use one of your stacks at a certain buff window to be in line with the big two minute buffs and save the second one for a better spot in the fight. The only issue I can see with this would be the added ogcd with a second use of LL. Weavespaces are important to BLM and it could be more harmful than I think.

@ivantheninja2100

Жыл бұрын

@@xXLordYggdrasillXx I don't actually play BLM, mine is only level 50 at the moment. But if I were to take a shot at a way to make leylines feel better, would be to look at the WoW equivalent. It's a shorter duration and it just buffs damage, which would be used to throw out as many big hitting astral fire abilities as you can before it goes away. Sure this would make it feel more like other buffs, but the shorter duration means you can use it in more situations. Plus it would mess up that guy's macro which would be funny.

@luxadia7310

Жыл бұрын

At this point i just use LL where it works, Keeping leyline 20s more is better than staying in it for 5s and wasting 25, especially with the enrage/kill timer we have on this tier, it's not like BLM actually to LL in raid buff anyway, non-standard works just as good for those

In their effort to try and standardize the game and make "QoL" changes they think the players would like, they've actually made things worse than when jobs were less homogenous. They wanted to make everything 2 minutes so players didn't have worry about their job having bad synergy, but instead because of the multiplicative effect of buff stacking and everything aligning naturally, you HAVE to align or your damage is fucked.

I think there needs to be two things done, personally. We've reached a tipping point culminating from what happened with Monk and fflogs back in heavensward and Stormblood. In heavensward people wouldn't run with monk because it negatively impacted fflogs parses. The community begged for Monk to get a raid damage buff. In Stormblood they gave Monk a raid damage buff, but Samurai and Black Mage just became the new job that people wouldn't run with. FFL finally added the rDPS metric near the end of stormblood going into Shadowbringers and this sentiment was significantly mitigated, but because of the design choices made between heavensward going into Stormblood on this topic, they've continued to push the same direction since then. Now we've reached a point where if you don't have mega-burst during the 2 minute window, your job is kind of a stinker. Technically, I think Black Mage could be considered overtuned the way things are right now, but because the design doesn't match with the bursty 2-minute meta, it's actually relatively tame. What they should probably do is 1: Reduce the availability of raid-wide buffs. and 2: Reduce the increased potency output during 2 minute raid-wide buff windows, spreading out damage a little more. To clarify 1; Too many jobs in the game have raid buffs. You can currently have 6 raid buffs going out in a party, and usually you will have at least 4-5 in a well-designed party. When you have the potential to throw out 6 raid buffs at 5% a piece, you are actually gaining access to a hidden 7th just because of how multiplicative stacking works. Instead of 30%, you're getting 34-35% worth of buffage. The hidden 7th is a step too far, basically. To clarify 2; A lot of jobs have this problem ever since Shadowbringers where you have this ooone skill you *need* to crit. Akh Morns for summoner in shadowbringers, midare, tsubame, and senei for samurai in Shadowbringers, Confiteor for Paladin, to name a few. Many of these skills still exist or were even added in Endwalker. Moves that if you crit, you get more than your average GCD worth of potency from the crit. This also needs to not be so deterministic. Just make those not hit like TNT, but raise your average potency across the board, or reduce their potency but allow you to use them more often. And lastly... just.... don't have bosses where you're designed to have a phase where you do literally double the damage you normally would. It exacerbates the issue in really unhealthy ways. I know it seems kind of cool to have a phase where the entire party's damage is doubled and you have a quick victory lap with it, but while that was fine in UCoB, it's not proving to be fine in Endwalker's current design implementation.

A bit off topic, but it's also worth mentioning that this tier especially has devalued ressing a ton since the fights mechanics are designed in such a way that they require basically the whole party being alive or you wipe. This is something that is pretty strict even for savage fights and also makes me question the value of having rdm/smn being able to res especially going forward if this is the intended design philosophy for savage from now on. Personally, I enjoy the challenge but it puts job utility on its edge whether or not said utility is actually worth it in the current design space. Same goes for pld utility which to be honest only sees some niche uses and if we would take the utility away it would not play any differently it would just mean fewer buttons on your bar.

@yScribblezHD

Жыл бұрын

I think with the current mentality of res being basically useless (in fact, all class specific utility being useless), it makes DPS differences really hard to justify. PLD is a good example, where you take lower DPS for utility that encounters are literally never designed around.

@disgustor3404

Жыл бұрын

@@yScribblezHD I completely agree. I also think that SE falls flat on its own balance philosophy being that they balance with utility and job difficulty in mind (which I dislike from the start since difficulty is subjective). So why does a DNC do significantly more dps than a MCH for example or PLD vs DRK. PLD is way more complex and difficult to play at a high level compared to DRK (I even find GNB easier than PLD), but DRK dumps on PLD in terms of dps if then the argument is but well PLD has more utility but as you pointed out that utility is never design around. However you twist and turn it in my opinion the current dps descrepancies we're seeing cannot be justified outside of being bad balancing in combination with a 2 min burst meta that does not fit all jobs.

@SubduedRadical

Жыл бұрын

@@disgustor3404 I think I agree with this. I've felt for a while now that Jobs should all do roughly the same damage when played optimally, and "utility" should be balanced by just having every Job have utility they bring. Utility that translates directly to numbers (e.g. party damage buffs) should be factored in as part of their "damage", and utility that does not should not unless encounters are specifically designed around having it...which they aren't.

I think the problem with your first solution (the one you didn't prefer) and the one I think they're going to try is that, while 2-minute windows haven't homogenized the jobs, the more they rework and tailor the jobs to fit the 2-minute paradigm, the more the jobs *have* to be homogenized. Like let's take Paladin. Paladin is rigid. It is so rigid that its DoT last exactly the amount of time it takes your to get back to it if you are using your skills in the proper order. But the rigidity of Paladin makes it perhaps the most distinctive feeling tank and gives it a unique flavor. The rigidity of Paladin has existed in the job for as long as I've been playing, and it has never been a crippling problem until now. They can make Paladin fit the paradigm by making it less rigid, but then it must become more like the other tanks. Repeat this process for every job and you're going to struggle to make them feel different, even just at the play level. So yeah, I agree that it would be better if they just admitted that 2-minutes is not the way and reverted. I just don't think this design is good for the game and I really wish class design was more in the ShB mold.

@miradrgn

Жыл бұрын

i was maining paladin from the last couple months of shb (when i finally got over my tank anxiety and leveled them all and found out it was fun) up through like somewhere in the 6.1X patches. it's been the worst-dps tank for pretty much as long as ive played it and i don't really care. i honestly really love the rigidity, having that exact flow of "i am going to do goring, authority, 3 atonements, goring, blast some magics and swords and dance around the arena in circles for 20 seconds, then authority, 2 atonements, repeat" is very anchoring, it's a steady rhythm to keep track of, and it means you get really attuned to feeling things like "oh, i slipped for a moment so i should drop an atonement here" or "i have to disengage for a gcd so i'll swap an atonement and a holy spirit". the rotation is rigid but what you can do with it depending on the situation becomes more interesting and flexible as a result. plus it just feels good when your ranged phase lines up right with disengage mechs and you get to just keep playing normally while watching the warrior be stuck spamming tomahawk 5 times (though that's becoming less and less of a thing as boss hitboxes inflate to more comical sizes) so hearing about an impending rework honestly has me worried. i don't think the way paladin is designed right now is fundamentally flawed in a vacuum, it's just punished because its rotation happens to not be very compatible with the current buff archetype. and if they wind up throwing away the stuff i love to fit it in the box better with everything else... idunno, i'll be pretty sad. (on the other hand my opinions on reworks might be invalid because i loved late-shb monk and had a blast frequently tanking delubrum reginae with it, i think removing the fist stances is the worst thing they've ever done with the job bc it just took away the opportunity for occasional huge brain emergency plays that made you feel like a genius, and i haven't really been able to get into EW monk because it just feels so much more complex and finicky now. i may just be the person who likes job implementations that everyone hates and considers objectively bad. but still, we already have two tanks that are the same tank in war and drk, i don't think we need to cram a third into the same box)

@Zeofolium

Жыл бұрын

rip the old 25 sec spirit's within... i miss the abnormal cooldowns timers...

@Naoto-kun1085

27 күн бұрын

I feel that the hard-core player base is partially to blame, because instead of allowing jobs to be different, they would get upset when jobs didn't fit in those windows! For example, everyone complained that paladin didn't fit in that window, so the natural solution was for the developers to make it fit. Hopefully the hard-core player base will start to push to allow more job uniqueness!

yeah I hate it. I was sooo happy when I heard we all get to burst in 2 minute windows and now I am its biggest hater. I was very wrong in wanting that. Delaying bursts as a BRD feels absolutely horrendous! It takes super long for my muscle memory to get used to individual song timings for specific fights and its not the fun side of hard. Its annoying. It began with ShBr that I felt like the jobs became a bit too easy to play but still fun. Now in EW, on top of the easy to play side, we got this homogenization that really makes me switch jobs every week - a problem I never had in FF since 2.0.

@savonmcleod7265

Жыл бұрын

Yup, homogenization, the gutting of skills like kaiten and 2 minute buff windows basically killed the game for me. Ill be back once they make some sweeping changes. Hopefully 7.0

@HyouVizer

Жыл бұрын

@@savonmcleod7265 thats fair yeah. Am hoping 7.0 shakes things up for the better

@0NBalfa0

Жыл бұрын

Brd main here. I will make two comments since they will both be loaded and on different topics, this will be on EW bard. I personally hated most of the changes from the media tour brd going into endwalker. Why have a UI element for the usage of a skill if I am going to be using it every 2 minutes, why make the procs almost guaranteed, there are jobs you can play without rng in them, 3 BL stacks (and especially the half BL refresh but I didn't want 3 BL stacks regardless), not overcapping on BLs too much was mitigatable and an element of skill expression (also you would still overcap at times with media tour brd even at 3 BL so i wanted it at 2 to make the element of EA usage more interesting), double procs in general was an element of skill expression and played a role on the skill ceiling of the job, same with procs on dots. Have EA have 2 stacks so that we can play around the inevitable drift of where we would use EA in our rotation to not overcap. I see overcapping in the same way as melees have positionals and uptime or casters have cast bars, sure it doesn't restrict movement but it is a place to squeeze out more dps. I am fine with WM being at a 2 minute cooldown but why can't the other songs have a shorter cooldown to play around and help in some way with recovery (say 90 secs for MB and 60 seconds for AP) and reduce the new RF into a 40 sec cooldown so that we get to enjoy using the button instead of having to enjoy the animation. The 60 sec cooldown on RS was interesting, why do we need so many buttons that we just use once every 2 minutes? I never wanted brd to be the shitty physical ranged version of ninja. There is already ninja in the game if you want a job that is all about its 1 and 2 minute burst windows. Does a failure state of dying in a fight have to simply punish you and not allow you the opportunity to recover somewhat gracefully? That's about all I want to say about brd, the job that now lacks identity.

@0NBalfa0

Жыл бұрын

Now for the general comment. First of, rigidity vs flexibility. I don't think a rigid rotation is necessarily, at least not in the case of PLD as his rotation is a short enough sustained dps rotation and you have ways to recover after downtime. Maybe if there were jobs with 90 second rotations you could end up aligning a bit better with them after some downtime in a fight. Pld players that are optimising the job plan out every gcd they will be doing in a fight and this plan differs from fight to fight. I think flexibility on jobs can be having a good alternative plan to your rotation that isn't just adding some filler into your rotation to move the burst later. Something that will make your rotation differ from the target dummy optimal rotation because of how the fight is designed. Let jobs each have their own way of handling downtime, let them have their on spots where the rotation gets more difficult because a mechanic is happening during that job's burst. Give them multiple avenues as ways to perform their rotation. All so that in the end, the team designing the fights doesn't have to care about how mechanics will align with bursts as it will be more likely that in general every job will have to deal with this happening in their own way. With more sustained as well as 30, 60, 80, 90 second rotations the team can balance the dps check around people just using their cooldowns independently but then parties can plan out their bursts together and tight dps checks can be overcome with various avenues of coordination instead of hoping for sufficient crit and DH rng. This allows teams to decide to use a safer strat that loses some uptime but they can then try to make up that damage loss by better buff alignment for example. Finally, why have 19 jobs if they all feel like they play so similarly one to another? When a job becomes more alike another then people that liked the former job, now have to find another job to like that plays differently from the latter. If every job plays the same, then you have to enjoy that one particular playstyle, else you won't enjoy the game as much, the fights are nice but a big portion of the fight is the job you are playing, otherwise there are games with simpler battle systems and better fights out there that don't involve server lag and this kind of snapshotting.

@IaconDawnshire

Жыл бұрын

BRD as well and I LITERALLY Hold off on my buffs until Paeon + BV + RF is up until I hit RS & Barrage 😐

I mained MCH in ShB for the 9-12 Es tier. I played DNC at first but my solo dps in my static was higher then the buffs DNC provided at the time so I went MCH. It annoys the hell outta me that mch is being locked out of duties. I joined a P5S party as DNC and ppl made a BRD leave. Dude was super sad he had to leave. This is WoW style balancing, and I dont want that for this game. Make the content easier, drop the 2min buff window or balance the jobs based not on how EZ clap a job is to play. A few of the decisions in EW so far seem to be backfiring. I'd like to see more done in these 6.2x patches to clean up this mess. I more or less sent the same message to SE in feedback. and I hope more people do the same and not just post on twitter about it lol

@cailee9820

Жыл бұрын

Oh, man, I can't believe they made the BRD leave after you joined. Was this PF, I take it? That would suck to get a group, wait for it to fill, and then get kicked. I main DNC so when I create my PFs, I will block other DNC (since double-DNC sucks) and if I'm trying to clear for the first time, I'll force at least one melee and only allow one additional Ranged, but I do that when I create the PF. Allowing people to join and then kicking them to is just crap. I would definitely blacklist someone that did that.

@Gamemaster-64

Жыл бұрын

Sound like people don't want reaper so there goes my chance of anything(i'm always seem to pick the bad jobs) I'm not that good with the other jobs especially drg which I keep forgetting the buffs and such.

@shuritanuma2835

Жыл бұрын

@@Gamemaster-64 I’ve seen plenty of pf groups not having any job restrictions, so don’t worry too much.

@Naoto-kun1085

27 күн бұрын

I think that the pf player base is in large part to blame on the devs locking down on this design choice. It's not that machinist *can't* keep up with dps, it's just that it's more challenging to play optimally, and I think having more challenging jobs is fun game design. But for awhile, the hard-core pf players would rather just have big damage numbers that fit in those windows. Same with Paladin, it's not that paladin was a bad job, it's just that pf culture was too close-minded to allow it. Hopefully those players will start to be more tolerant of weaker or more difficult jobs so that we can move away from the 2 minute buff window!

I agree with you. As a ninja main the 2 minutes buff window feels really strict and limiting in what my options are. And when I mess up something, very often I just tilt and give up the pull .

@Nimoot

Жыл бұрын

If there's an AST in the group, you could ask that if there's another melee to give You the card every minute since you have your own personal 60 second buff window.

@misanthropiclusion

Жыл бұрын

so "if I don't do the most damage I dont wanna do damage" mentality?

@someguy3806

Жыл бұрын

@@Nimoot you should already be doing this anyway apart from some burst windows

When we all are on the 2 min window, it magnifies the job disparity and ruins the freedom of compositions. Now you just take whatever is optimal for those 2 min window regardless of encounter design because even if mechanics clash with it, its suboptimal for everyone. So why bother with another strat?

@mamayareborn

Жыл бұрын

No, it's literally the opposite. The fact that every Job is operational within 2 minute windows maximizes customization; it doesn't lower it. In a world where 2-min windows aren't a thing for every Job, the exact same people who would force you to play an optimal 2-min window comp now -- something which is not only unimportant but also extremely rare -- they would just force you to never play any other Job that DOESN'T have a 2 minute window burst. That's just called meta. And if you balance based around the idea that a meta exists, you end up with 8 Jobs and you may as well remove all others. It's idiotic to design a game based on that when all content allows for all comps objectively.

@icholi88

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn And I'm telling you if we are all 2 min jobs, some of us are going to be better at it than others because perfect balance is impossible, so every little difference matters more. Even if boss mechanics are poorly optimized for 2 min windows, you still take those best 2 min jobs because it hurts everyone equally. The less options you have to be unique, the skills that conform better will always do better.

@SubduedRadical

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn This isn't true, though. Before the 2 min meta, there were actually several metas that coexisted and so parties had a lot more freedom of choice. Even off-meta Jobs could shine in other party comps. With the 2 min meta, it robs all of that customization since it forces everyone to play the meta Jobs since the off-meta Jobs are so non-competitive and there are no alternate builds that play to their strenghts. For example, a sustained damage Job like PLD might not work with a heavy 2 min meta build, but would work well with 30 second micro power points. In something like ShB where you could build either comp with your static, PLD would be viable in one. But since EVERYTHING is the 2 min now, PLD is non-viable and there's no alternate semi-meta comps for it to fit into because even the semi-meta comps also revolve around the 2 min burst window. . No, it's literally the opposite of what you're saying.

@antarath517

Жыл бұрын

@@SubduedRadical Yeah, if every job basically has the same damage patterns but one of them does 1% less overall, that's REALLY bad and that job wouldn't be taken into high-end period If every job's got something unique and brings something new and one job happens to be 5% behind, there are cases you can still bring them, even though it's 5 times the first disparity

@SubduedRadical

Жыл бұрын

@@antarath517 That's not QUITE true: Ease of play is a factor that people use when progging. High end players don't have the "I NEED the Job to be complex and hard to play to feel like I've accomplished something" mentality. To them, whatever gets the clear is what's relevant.

IMO changing something as fundamental as the burst window mid-expansion would be a ton of extra work for regular patches, and likely would come at the cost of other content. I think the best option would be to spend the next two patches doing as much as they can to make the 2 minute window feel as good as they can, then reevaluate going into 7.0 if 2 minute windows should stay the status quo

@scoobiusmaximus9508

Жыл бұрын

They don't need to get rid of all 2 min bursts, they just need to change some to 1 min or 90s, which a lot of raid buffs already were last expansion.

@yScribblezHD

Жыл бұрын

I really disagree, changing the cooldown on some classes burst windows should be about as straightforward as a change can be. Of course there should be some tuning to the values as well but considering the output should be maintained I can't imagine it being that bad. Either way, I'd rather sacrifice content than have combat this stale personally.

@Reshapable

Жыл бұрын

@@yScribblezHD You'd be wrong. Changing cd's has immense combat implications and would require revisiting all high end content formulas. If it didn't have that kind of impact it wouldn't be a problem to begin with. It would require changes to base abilities and all boss functions and is absolutely beyond patch level adjustments. And the idea of sacrificing content for a problem an extreme minority is incensed over is... something. It's an issue to be sure and one I'm not fond of given I came from WoW and hated it's compounding buff shenanigans, but we are far from suffering here.

@Smarfton

Жыл бұрын

@@Reshapable I mean, you nailed this on the head, but you also let the cat outnof the bag as to why any meaningful changes are never going to happen bar junking the entire thing and going back to formula. There's simply too much investment in what is already there. And that's not a good thing.

@Reshapable

Жыл бұрын

@@Smarfton Well as I said its beyond patch level adjustments. They've made as/more significant changes to the system over the course of the games life cycle so this is absolutely something that can be altered come expansion time, and no it won't require being completely junked. At which point we'll be mad about something else. Because that's the unfortunate part of this minority, it's invested in finding reasons to be unhappy. These last few weeks have been very demonstrative of the leading edge's propensity for being drama queens.

Stormblood job design was the happiest medium of balance and class philosophy for a majority of the jobs in my opinion. Not all of them, but a good number this was true for. I would like to see the team go back in that direction of the game in areas where it made positive improvements to isolated identity for what you wanted to play without it being overly complex like HW was. They can continue to add in "pseudo difficulty" and actual difficulty to both the encounters/jobs themselves creating an equilibrium between having to know your job and having to know the fights at slightly higher levels. A cookie cutter 2 minute burst formula just isn't as fun. And it's not that I'm against casual players when I say I would like to go back to SB job philosophy - I'm against how dumbed down the game has become over the years in a sole effort to just bring in new people from a business standpoint. New people are always going to come in now with the success of the last 2 expansions. New players are also more volatile to giving the game a shot and moving on, that's just the nature of figuring out if the game is for you. Don't make the rest of the game a snore-fest for the people who want to play long term and try as much content as they can.

@SkeithTwilight

Жыл бұрын

All of combat, has just started to show its age honestly. I agree SB for me was peak for combat in ff14. But then they just went ahead and started to simplify the ever living crap out of this game. Like you said it was not perfect but i feel like we should go back to that and rebuild from there. Its just not fun or engaging anymore.

@VideogamesPang

Жыл бұрын

I do not want to go back to the world of TP, slash/pierce debuffs, no charge abilities, and avoiding tank stance. If you say "just have Stormblood combat without those things" then you've just described Shadowbringers combat.

@Silphiroth

Жыл бұрын

@@VideogamesPang TP and MP management was great. Also enmity was a group effort. Now its braidnead. SB was better

@Kyubab

Жыл бұрын

@@Silphiroth TP just sucked, some form of Medium between stormblood and shadowbringers combat would be the best IMO

@VideogamesPang

Жыл бұрын

@@Kyubab Shadowbringers did have more of a focus on burst window and buff alignments (which have only been further emphasized in Endwalker) compared to Stormblood so I can understand wanting to undo that particular aspect. But copying Stormblood combat wholesale would definitely not be an improvement lol. The issue is that lots of players LIKE having their entire kit align. We used to have weirder cooldowns and dots/debuffs with odd timers that didn't line up with anything, but all that eventually got changed because people didn't like how it didn't line up with buffs. So for me the answer is not simply reversion. Alignment can stay but it should be de-emphasized. Like MrHappy suggests, divide the current extreme power of 1/2 minute burst windows into several smaller windows sprinkled throughout the rotations and don't worry so much about whether all of a job's big power hits line up with raid buffs. If anything intentionally design stuff so buff syncing has minimal impact.

Speaking as a non-savage raider who does EX, it feels like the fun factor of jobs is being butchered just to have them fit into this mold of 2 min burst windows for the sake of homogenization. Jobs across the board lost a fair amount of identity just so they could be easier to balance at endgame, when a majority of the playerbase does not even raid at that level. It has made combat less fun on a casual level ever since Shadowbringers, when they REALLY started to force jobs into set rules. Encounters have gotten better but the moment-to-moment combat for anything that isn't savage or ultimate just feels dead compared to pre-ShB. For example, All healers have been reduced to one dot, one dps spell and then ogcd's for healing and really that's it. Back in stormblood we had Whm with their unique AoE toolkit (RIP Aero 3), Scholars with the insane high APS gigabrain strats (RIP shadowflare) and AST with their fun card shenanigans. We've lost all of that and it feels bad.

I am a newer player, started after EW, not doing savage; yet I still found this focus on 2min windows weird. Not to mention the huge crit variance, but I think that can be tolerated if they kinda try adding more flexible buff windows like you suggested -- I hope more and more creators bring this up because they really need to rethink this going forward before it's "too late". Honestly the worst thing to come out of this is seeing party finder straight up excluding MCH or even RPR from their listing, as a Reaper enjoyer it really feelsbadman.

Part of the issue, as I see it, is that the burst-oriented fight design works directly counter to the way Paladin and Machinist play. Machinist has wildfire, and can build their mecha-queen for 2-minute bursts. But outside of the burst, it's not doing nearly enough damage, not buffing the party enough, to stand up with Bard and Dancer as definitive supports. Paladin can't do high-sustained damage outside of initial burst set-up because there's no more buffs going in between the 2-minute bursts. It's without a true proper burst to use during the 2-minute windows, as well. So it's stuck in this strange limbo of being unable to burst as much as the other tanks, but also not having high enough sustained damage outside of burst to make up for it. It's part of why PLD suffered so much in DSR, because the constant disengages, phase changes, none of it allowed for PLD to truly shine. And it's only become apparent as time has passed.

Was playing brd, had a lot of procs (which is good) but the problem is that I had to use my apex arrow way earlier than when I used to, which is the 2mn buff window. Which sort of ended in a dps lost. That shouldnt be normal. Being punished for having a good variance of procs, shouldn't punish me because my most "powerfull" spell then don't enter the 2mn window

I think one factor not being considered much in this conversation is PF vs static groups. In a static, you have a lot more freedom to mess around with buff timings and getting uses out of oddball timings because you have a cohesive group and there is something to be said for that high end optimization. In PF, I'm mostly grateful for the 2 minute meta, because there are less moving parts to mess up. You don't need as much communication or coordination between players to maximize the benefit of jobs in burst windows. Everyone just does the 2 minute burst now. So while there are a bunch of other headaches to deal with in PF, this 2 minute meta actually removed one in my experience. I feel like if I was in a static group, I would largely agree with the high end players on this. But since 95% of my time in content in this game is in PF, I'll be happy to have as many pain points removed as possible before I worry about freedom of rotation and skill expressions.

@patrickschaab3217

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate this comment. This is my first expansion really engaging in savage content, both in a static and in PF. My static is very casual, so having the structure and consistency of the 2min has been useful for us, despite mechanics that force us to delay or make timings weird. In PF, I like having similar expectations for every job. We have 19 distinct jobs in this game; I can’t be expected to be knowledgeable of each one or their rotation. But if everyone has a 2min cooldown that I can learn to expect, then I can immediately pinpoint problems during prog. For example, back when I was progging P4S and struggling to get through phase 1, I could easily refer to my buffs and see “oh, looks like the dancer is delaying their tech step here, brd is hitting finale there, that’s where I need to time my buffs and bursts” and I could learn from that and improve, even without direct communication.

@captainsavvy07

Жыл бұрын

I'm the same. Everyone working on the two minutes means there's 1 less thing to deal with in PF. Not everyone had the luxury of a static, or organised FC with VC to mess around with the different buff timings. Saying that, having 1 minute ones could work so if something does happen it's not hard to get back into a buff window even if it's not the main 2 min one though. I like playing SUM and having my rotation inextricably linked to the demi-summon, and by proxy the burst, is not fun as unless I just sit spamming Ruin over and over there's no choice but to burst every 2 minutes. Having 1 min bursts would be nice so both Bahamut and Phoenix get some love and I wouldn't feel obligated to only burst on Bahamut. I just wish that people cared less about the meta, and weren't shamed out of playing the job they wanted to. But then I don't do anything above extreme content, don't have a main job and just flit between whichever job I feel like playing at the time. What do I know.

@makisbizarreadventure4669

Жыл бұрын

I disagree.. because in PF even though 2 minute is supposed to be the thing. Because the bosses always have something going on during 2 min windows I notice PF just throws a shit ton of stuff off. IE the Dash in 5. Some people pop on cd others wait till after the dash. Or the Tree. Some pop on cd some after the flip up. It's just a headache. Even when trying to communicate this with your party there's always someone drifting something and then the rest of the fight it's just off and will never be back in line. As he said in the video atleast the different buff windows means you have the option to say okay - this is coming up I can capitilize off this since that is out of line. etc etc. IE Dancer with a Ninja in the party. Having the minute trick gave you an opportunity to unload your fans before the next flourish in that trick and rebuild for the next burst window which was optimal. Having the other window to do something was great, and you didn't worry about the trick being late or not happening because the Ninja's whole rotation revolves around it. If that makes sense - sorry im typing this while walking through the city lol

@PKcrash

Жыл бұрын

PF is horrible at keeping everyone on the same page .I have been in PF where people pop buffs a few seconds before downtime and its completely wasted.

@SubduedRadical

Жыл бұрын

I've had the exact opposite experience. A lot of people in PF I run across don't know The Balance exists or raid buffs. They kind of just use their buff whenever they feel like it/remember it, with no attention to whether or not lit lines up with anyone else's and often times a ton of drift. As far as I can tell, the 2 min thing helps statics but it has harmed PF in a HUGE way, and that's before we get into the way it makes highs higher and lows lower, amplifying Jobs that otherwise would perform well into being blackballed, like MCH and PLD have good damage, but because it doesn't cram into the burst window (and MCH doesn't contribute to said window being amplified by buffs like DNC and BRD do), these two Jobs are sidelined. If there weren't a 2 min burst, MCH/PLD would be the Jobs you take when you want reliable sustained damage. From my experience, the 2 min window thing has made PF parties fail and break up more often and requires a lot of communication to get people to work it right. The exact opposite of what you said. I have no static, so ALL the content I run high end is PF, and my experience has been 180 opposite of yours. The pain is far greater now than it was in ShB when I ran PF groups.

Speaking from the perspective of a casual player who hasn't gotten to a point of playing any end game content never mind doing so at an appropriate ilevel yet, there has certainly been a feeling of intimidation with regards to strict 2 min windows. I could imagine myself panicking alot initially if I didn't manage to keep up with it and just kind of snowballing as I have the unfortunate tendency to do, so I'm all for anything that increases margin for error even if it means it'll take longer to reach the skill ceiling, it'll be worth it if I don't leave every trial with mt heart beating out of my chest.

@bicks4436

Жыл бұрын

While messing up your 2min is bad, if you are in prog parties people aren't going to care and you can mess up without really worrying about it (though obviously you want to keep it in mind and improve as much as you can during prog). It's mostly in clear/reclear parties you really need to be on it. So don't be too intimidated, you can still get in there and learn the content. Personally (and I think most players have this mindset) I don't care if people mess up as long as they are aware and working on it/asking questions, unless the expectation is you're at a certain part of a fight and you just lied about it. Extremes are a good place yo get your feet wet and practice the muscle memory too, plus really you can fuck up 2min in them and still clear with deaths.

@castlevaniasonataofarealsh3222

Жыл бұрын

Keep in mind all of this mostly applies to high end content like extremes, savages, and ultimates. These are fights that require a lot of optimization to actually clear. You do not need to worry about it nearly as much if you're not a hardcore raider. For pretty much all other content as long as you are pushing your buttons when they come up and keeping your gcd rolling, you'll do perfectly fine.

@OnlyBlix

Жыл бұрын

Why would increasing the margin of error mean the skill ceiling would be higher? You're worrying about stuff you're not even doing atm. Chill, play the game, try out hard content, then get an opinion on it.

I am a dragoon main and play dragoon almost exclusively, so I'll talk about that. I've slowly began missing how you would cycle buffs and put thought into whether to life or not. As things are, I just look up the standard opener tell me what buttons to press first and then I just hit them on cooldown for the rest of the fight. I miss having a skill ceiling to work towards in shadowbringers, between thinking about buffs and planning uptime. I thought maybe I'd gotten better as a player but maybe it's just that the ceiling dropped so drastically that I was instantly not far behind the best players.

@DomDomPop

Жыл бұрын

This is my problem too. I’ve been a Dragoon main since 1.0, and never have I felt like I could be replaced by a macro, but at this point I find myself thinking “if there’s no decisions to make, why am I pressing the buttons myself?”. When they put mirage dive back on a separate button and the general response is “just put all your jumps on a macro, you use them in the same order anyway”, that’s a sad thing to hear, man. This is the kind of stuff that scares me when they say there’s a total DRG rework coming. How do we know they won’t make it worse for most players?

@Aerensianic

Жыл бұрын

At least P5S you can fit in a cheeky double life before devour then you kinda swap things around a bit for the rest of the fight. I think they made it easier to generically delay life most instances just to fit in the 2 min window and they made the burst a lot more "busy". Makes it a lot more punishing for drifting or just fucking up/dying but the decision making is lower. So higher apm, but simpler thinking with greater punishment if you mess up.

The final burst window in P8S p1 is imo one of the most frustrating sections of any fight as tank. It basically throws a fairly powerful tankbuster(which requires a double tankswap) right into the middle of your 6m burst window. So of the ~15 second peak burst window, 2-3 GCDs are just needed to get all your mitigation up. Which especially as dark knight with all its weaving, just feels super akward and unless willing to screw over healer, results practicly always in a DPS loss.

@gigabased4

Жыл бұрын

thats a skill issue, you can literally pop rampart early and also it doesnt really matter if you hold shadow bringer or carve and spit as long as u hit them during the burst window. Tanks are already beyond braindead this expansion, making you do a little more work doesnt sound unfair.

So if I’m dead during buff window should I save my skills until next one or use it anyway when I revive

I am not a fan. While jobs feel fine, you're right, it is obviously harder to balance than the devs intended. MCH and PLD are in a terrible spot from a FF14 perspective (Still able to clear content just fine, but we will hopefully never get to WOW levels of imbalance). While it's mean to say, I think the honest answer is that the devs overestimate most of the FF14 playerbase. I know that most players struggle with their ABC's let alone keeping a skill on CD every 2 minutes. I've seen buffs in PF get pushed as far at a minute out of tune without deaths. Back when you had various CDs coming out at various intervals, you as a player could take advantage of those CDs. Now, you press your CD on time but no one else does and then you've lost a big chunk of damage. (applying to PF and not statics ofc)

@Edzter

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely this. Chain stratagem 5-10 seconds late every 2 minutes. Arcane circle coming out at 2:50 for whatever fucking reason. People not holding buffs before 2 min mechs and then not only do we lose 2~gcds, we also misalign all buffs and don't realign again. The PF is a mess, the devs try to make harder content more "accessible" and then we see shit like this and it's so bad that you just don't want to do it at all anymore. Best example - barb EX. Extremes are the first stepping point any player should take for hardcore content, and this fight absolutely filtered PF to oblivion. People simply don't know how to press buttons. Even if you suck at what you do, if you click all your buttons you're already doing better than the casuals.

@johnway8819

Жыл бұрын

Paladin is top dps tank lol... (well was first once the fix was released and right now second but hey it's perfectly fine). It doesn't need any change ESPECIALLY NOT turning it into a 2 min burst job as I'm afraid they are trying to do...

@TheHellsOutsider

Жыл бұрын

@@johnway8819 If you look at a fight designed around burst windows (P8S phase 2), you'll see that PLD and Warrior are still lagging behind by quite a bit (up to 10% on the high end, hell even GNB is over 5% lower than DRK on the high end). 90% of the reason DRK and GNB are so strong is that they can use these burst windows much better. DRK's opener under buffs is better than most dps. Gameplay wise, I love PLD and appreciate it being different than the other tanks in that regard. But something has to give. As MrHappy said, either the 2 minute window has to go, PLD has to fit in the 2 minute window, or they have to design every fight to avoid downtime. And it's apparently obvious that the only way to get job balance is to adjust the burst windows based on the changes to PLD and Warrior. PLD bumped up quite a bit based on the changes since they are in the burst window while warrior barely moved since the buffs they got were on their regular-out of burst- abilities. Note: This is in FF14 terms of balance which is 1000% better than most games.

@TheHellsOutsider

Жыл бұрын

@@XCodes I agree. It's not a huge issue overall. Which is why I've continually noted that this is in terms of FF14 balance which is very good. And that's a very good point for RDM. This tier is 90% a wipe mechanic after one that usually kills someone (Devour for instance) which makes that RDM benefit useless. The issue with PLD is just the best highlight of how a job not being able to fully take advantage of a burst window (and a fight being built around that with downtimes) makes such a huge difference. The biggest "issue" right now plaguing dps is the "ranged tax". I don't think that phys ranged or especially casters should do much less damage now with the revamped hitboxes. I would argue that they should bring ranged physical dps (MCH particularly) up to melee levels if the melee did not hit a single positional. This would make positionals the "damage boost" for melee. Basically, if your a melee that doesn't do your positionals, you do about the same as a MCH. This would also make positionals look like a damage gain instead of a loss for many players (perception wise).

My biggest problem with balance right now is that a mix of this, which many of the melee play well to, and some other system changes to combos in EW (30 sec timer, ranged skill not breaking combos) have made the skill floor of melee so high that the average 90% parse of all phys ranged and non-BLM casters right now is about a 40% parse of the top 4 melee averaged, and about 50% if you include RPR and BLM with their higher variance and lower ceilings. That's data from just this week across all savage fights. So even trying my best, I can be outdpsed by another player performing average to *below average* for their role, with a baked in advantage I have no way to overcome. The combo changes especially were sort of advertised as "QoL buffs" but the net effect has been so beneficial for an already strong role. It's to the point where they suffer far less even if they do end up out of range or having to spend GCDs away from a boss for a mechanic than the casters who can potentially drop all damage for one or more gcds dealing with the same mechanics, and in some cases like RDM mana, the effect compounds as they suddenly are even less prepared than they were for the next burst window on top of the lost potency. Obviously there's other factors for the final numbers being so hugely different like the hitboxes and gear funneling, though less so on the latter by now especially factoring in PF clears. But no matter how we got here (the caster dev being basically AFK and not making any changes to help them keep up with the melee buffs doesn't help), my impact as a player if I queue in on RDM right now feels so low that I'm back to just queuing as a healer primarily, because my personal player skill seems to be more helpful on a completely different role. Even if I play to my absolute best on a DPS job that far behind, I don't feel nearly as useful to a group as just healing instead, because the gap is just that demotivating.

@StayCalm0

Жыл бұрын

The skill floor for melee is NOT high. If anything it's far lower than it was because of giant boss targeting rings. what you mean is the damage floor is higher

Yeah my biggest peve is that every 2 minutes there's a mechanic that makes using buffs unoptimal. P5S has both double rush and Devour at 2/4 minutes respectively. And while you CAN hit the boss while it's dashing during double rush, it CAN and will eat it sometimes. Just this Tuesday I decided to try to not delay my 2 minutes for double rush and hit it after it finished its dashes and it was at the far side of the arena with my Plentiful Harvest and it went off, did damage, but did not give me my resources.

@destru1235

Жыл бұрын

Had the same exact problem and more than once too. I just accepted that I had to wait until the dashes were done there so the Enshroud gauge didn't get ghosted like that

@Kenichi87

Жыл бұрын

I've never had that problem during double dash. In fact, I'm at that point where I use the final hit in the 1-2-3 combo while waiting for him to dash and then use Plentiful Harvest as he dashes away, because it's a ranged hit. And I've never lost the resources by doing that. O.o

Thanks for this, Happy. I've mained Reaper since it dropped and at this point I'm sticking with it purely out of aesthetics. The rotation is fairly simple, but INCREDIBLY rigid, and you are punished so strongly for not only deaths but also disconnects and missed or mistimed GCDs (Gluttony being such a hog is also unfortunate). This is compounded by the fact that the job is resource negative which makes misalignment a when, not if situation. The satisfaction factor suffers as a result as often you are robbed of that optimal static rotation by variables outside of your control. Granted RPR damage is lowest in its role, I don't feel that's worth complaining about.

@andrewsmith3958

11 ай бұрын

According to FFLogs RPR dps is comparable to MNK, and sometimes even greater. MNK on the whole is now 3rd highest melee in dps: SAM and RPR dealing more.

The biggest problem with 2 minute burst windows is that the differences in each job's DPS get multiplied massively by them. Jobs that the devs think they are tuning to be very close to eachother end up much further apart than they likely intended because of this magnification.

Homogenization and Rigidtity are the same problem, the game is basically a competitive fighting game, but in a 3D field, PvE only, compared to old MMOs, which were more like a deck building game, where there were multiple approaches you could take to tackling problems

@OkamiG15

Жыл бұрын

I mean, there’s a reason 14 is getting the reputation as the FGC Retirement Home.

I share a lot of your thoughts on this topic, DPS could swing wildly depending on how tight that 2 min burst was but I do kind of like having that kind of "anchor" point somewhere since it does encourage everyone to stay clean in their rotations and keep drifting to a minimum to maintain that flow. I think a slightly better informed fight design to ensure the 2 min windows aren't too insane for mechs at that point and just generally farming out some of the burst potency into some smaller windows in between would help. I wonder if they've given thought to resources persisting through death at all, given resource-centric pretty much all jobs are now (especially the ones that don't recover well) It might be worth consideration. Even if weakness needs to be increased in compensation, I think that would be more preferable if you could simply "pick up from where you left off" so to speak than having to try and build everything back up again and pray you can make it in time for your burst.

I like Dragoon, Ninja, and Gunbreaker especially because of their 1 minute bursts, getting to use the jobs most powerful attacks every minute, along with whatever else they have, keeps the gameplay from being a snoozefest from raid buff to raid buff like some jobs

9:43 as a console player, this is very much evident on striking dummies in Stone, Sky and Sea challenges. Same exact rotation could either kill a dummy or just not due to having a bad roll on crits.

The 2 minute buff windows also make skill speed more likely to be a poison chalice for a lot of jobs, or otherwise make skill speed more rigid than it probably should be. If everything needs to line up perfectly every two minutes, skill speed throwing things off by a few seconds can be really bad because of that.

i am mixed on it, i get what they were trying to do. But ultimately created more problems with jobs and balance than before. I sorta miss how in shadowbringers as mentioned 30, 60, 90 etc. timers. The best thing they could do is adjust jobs so they feel better in the 2 min buff windows and less awkward. Also adjust jobs that are struggling right now in the current raid tier

I believe that Stormblood had some great examples of jobs that allowed you to go completely freestyle with your high-damage windows, where *you* decided when your burst window was. Prime example of this for me was DRK, but also SAM and RDM. During Stormblood, people complained about DRK a lot, pointing out that Dark Arts was the main culprit. The same boring oGCD that basically adds 140 potency to your attacks, when that potency could just be put into those attacks or a single, regular cooldown. I bet those people are eating their teeth right now, because to me, the mechanic of Dark Arts was a brilliant one. And not just because the animation was mega-cool and fit so well with the lore and theme of the job. I'll explain why: Dark Arts costs 1800 MP. At the time, your MP cap was tied to your job and piety if you were a healer. For DRKs, you had 9600 MP in your bar. If you do your math, that means you have 5 and 1/3rds of a Dark Arts in your MP bar, which translates to roughly 746 potency in the reserve tank, as it were. A bit more since Carve and Spit had a much greater potency increase due to Dark Arts than other weaponskills or abilities, and that was on a 60s cooldown timer, as it is today. Since Dark Arts effectively allows the player to buff individual skills to do more damage or have other additional effects, the player thus has much greater control of when they output more or less damage. Your MP bar was, essentially, a potency reserve that you could spend or save when desired. This is still somewhat true today, but not in the same profound sense as in Stormblood, as DA was the main way you buffed your damage. It's because of this that DRK was super-flexible in its damage output. You could put out consistent damage by using DA regularly. And that was fine. But for those that wanted to push things further, you had to pay attention to many different factors. 1: your party. Every job had its own raid buffs that tended to have different timings. DRG Battle Litany was 3 minutes, and Eye of the Dragon (which as a tank you never got, but still) was 90 secs. NIN meant Trick Attack every minute, so if there was a NIN in the party, you knew you had to time your rotation for 1-minute burst windows. Bards put out consistent buffs (but they were in every comp ever since BRD in SB was OP, so that was irrelevant, but Battle Voice was still a thing, so it was something.) And of course RDMs had Embolden, a 2-minute buff, which was physical only, so relevant to you. Same with Brotherhood from MNK (if you ever saw one). 2: the fight. Naturally, there's downtime timers, and especially as a tank, there's gonna be times when you're asked to break melee uptime for mechanics. TBN was a DPS neutral affair, since TBN gave you 50 blood, which equated to an additional Bloodspiller, your highest potency GCD, but since it cost 1800 mana, the gain was questionable, and that encouraged smart use. Still, it was a powerful shield, and sometimes that came in as a run-saving ability, reserved mostly for preserving other defensive cooldowns or emergencies. 3: your GCD count and your skill speed. Manipulating your GCDs was a big thing for DRK optimisation back then. Not sure if it still is, but I know how it worked at the time, because I mained it back then. First off, you had Blood Weapon. A 15s cooldown (if I remember correctly) that increased your GCD speed, giving you more GCDs within a given amount of time and serving as a continuous mini-burst, and also it just felt good when it was active because it gave you two different GCD speeds to work with, adding variety. It also gave you bonus MP for every GCD hit, meaning that you had to weave it at the end of a GCD for maximum efficiency, and it boosted the MP gained from Syphon Strike on top of that, so naturally the GCD you wanted to get in most of inside it was Syphon Strike. To make sure of that, you had to constantly monitor your blood gauge relative to Blood Weapon, especially as Blood Weapon also granted Blood for every GCD hit. Blood was needed to access Bloodspiller, which didn't break combos, a unique property in the toolkit, and thus allowed you to manipulate where in your 1-2-3 combo you were within Blood Weapon. This was made more complex by Delirium. Delirium gave you 2400 MP, cost 50 Blood, and extended the duration of Blood Weapon by 12s or Blood Price by 20s. Delirium was a 90s cooldown. That meant that, every Delirium window, you needed to adapt your GCD count to get the most out of it. the rule of thumb was: start Blood Weapon on Souleater. And during Delirium, on Hard Slash, so that meant you had to delay your GCD by 1 GCD: thus before a Delirium window, you use Bloodspiller, Souleater, and then weave Delirium on the next Hard Slash. This all depended on your Skill Speed, of course, so you were free to experiment. If you didn't have the Blood for that at the time? TBN. Use it on yourself if you're main tanking so the boss will whack ya good and give you the Blood you need for the window. Or throw it on your cotank for the same effect. This is also where fight knowledge came in, since it'd be a waste to use it right when the boss would be casting anything that isn't an immediate raidwide. Combine this with things like Salted Earth giving Blood and aggro management (which was the best of any tank thanks to Dark Arts Power Slash, and don't you dare start about Equilibrium!), and you've got yourself a super-fun and complex job. And yeah, it all starts with using the same button 10 times in a row in your opener, but what of it? That's a price I'm willing to pay for getting to play my job the way I want to. And if you truly think it's still dumb, it's not that hard to add different increases in potencies or effects to different skills due to Dark Arts. The idea of it is perfectly sound and fun. It didn't need to be removed, it's what made DRK great. Or double the mana cost and potency increase. Problem solved. We just need a return to flexible systems like this, and we'll be good.

I liked that at the start, the whole party got a burst, and then again in 3 or 5 minutes, depending on the fight or the reset(typically with full or adjusted rotations to get the most out of them). But in between all of that, everyone had their own personal burst window that they had to work into the fight, it hardly ever overlapped with more than one class. I haven't played in almost a year and I'm excited to come back, but I'm sad to hear how things have changed. I'm sure on either end it's not as extreme as it seems, but I definitely got used to certain rotations, I imagine the nuance will be lost on me a little, but also I feel like something might be missing.

Inb4 "WoW is a different style of game" Burst windows in WoW feel amazing (for the two specs I've played recently). Just because a job deals most of it's damage through it's burst window does not mean that it needs to be boring for the other 75% of the fight. Windwalker monk in WoW is a burst DPS where the only thing that changes when you start your burst phase, is that you are now on a timer to most efficiently use your abilities. That's it. The spec (job) plays in the same engaging, fast paced, on your toes way for the entire encounter. You have to manage two different resources to not over cap on either but making sure to have just the right amount going into specific windows. I can not do it justice in a text format, it's just a banger of a job to play. Fire Mage is the same way, it's a job that relies around a burst window of guaranteed crits and rune of power (leylines) to shove as many FAT pyroblasts into the enemy as possible during the window. Every two crits grants an instant cast pyroblast, and a crit with pyroblast counts towards your next free one. This leads to a play style where you have to find the shortest cast abilities to keep the spam going, and be flexible in the event that you don't have any more instant cast spells up. The way you interact with the game, as in the inputs you press, are unique. I could tell you based on keylogging alone whether the fight was done on Windwalker or Fire Mage. Now lets compare this to two DPS jobs I have capped and what their burst window looks like. It's burst window is locking you into 3 melee phase combos in a row for 30 seconds straight. You're not allowed to use the key feature that the job is balanced around when in this phase, which is dualcast verraise. But is this melee phase unique, or interesting to input? Well no, it's just 1-2-3 4/5-6-6 three times in a row. The only thing that changes is that you sometimes have to pay attention to which button you press 4 or 5. It's always the same, it always takes the same amount of time, and you don't have to think about it. What about Ninja? Their whole gimmick is ninjutsu, this screams engagement and flexibility! The whole point of ninja is to throw as many ninjutsu's as you can into your burst window, like fire mage does. Do these ninjutsu have flexibility and interesting input mechanics? Well, you press 1-3-4 when you have kassatsu up, and you press 1-2-4 otherwise... You don't have to think about it... You're basically doing the exact same thing you're doing in your "downtime" which is doing a 1-2-3 combo, but instead you're pressing it faster. Oh yeah and I had done jade stoa synced as dancer and managed to get a singular fan dance III proc for the whole fight. An oGCD 200 potency ability... One cast. I love the fight designs in this game, they are great. But once you have the mechanic down and are just waiting on everything to line up for a clear, or you have the boss on farm, the only thing keeping you engaged with the content isn't the boss. It's your job rotation. And when they all feel the same, input the same, and are not engaging, it's extremely disheartening when I know how cool hotbar based combat can be. Am I going to give a solution? No. As better stated by the LoR dev, feedback should be like going to a doctor. Tell the doctor what problem you're having and why you think that, and they will come up with a solution for your problem. You shouldn't be going to your doctor demanding a certain medication you've seen on TV (unless you're an old white person in the United States...) www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/wcenab/how_i_a_lor_designer_writes_game_feedback/ Also, I wrote this with no sleep so it probably could have been worded better :p

@scathan8186

Жыл бұрын

Long time wow player here, specifically mage, The design choice to make insanely powerful cooldowns has honestly ruined the game for me, don't get me wrong, combustion is fun, chaining pyroblasts into a boss is fun, What YOU dont see is the literal years of patches with nerfs to fireball/pyroblast in service of this change, ending with a spec where outside of cooldowns you do dick for damage, AOE trash packs in dungeons? Better use cooldowns to do damage or do less than a tank. The ramifications of this in pvp are even worse. In arena? Pop all your cooldowns and line up with stuns to kill the healer? well I hope you brought your own healer because now you have to survive for 2-3 minutes until all your cooldowns are up to do it all again. In battlegrounds, Use your cooldowns to fight one skirmish and be melee food for the next 3 minutes until you can kill someone again. Honestly I have a lot of feelings about this, while it can be fun, I think the feeling of being useless outside of cooldowns is awful

6.1 was a severe Mistake, Samurai plays monotonous in comparison to 6.08 and Ninja.. seriously who had the Idea of changing Trickattack!? just why!? But Do you think that Positionals will go away in 7.0?

@notverynotoriousg5674

Жыл бұрын

if positionals go away there is no excuse for lower ranged dps, which is kind of award to me as ranged main anyway, more advanced content and we have to be kite machines, like positionals, though less direct, we got to hit from the side because the whole back of the field is no longer ours to stand on.

the funny thing is I kinda feel like Monk right now fits the 30s power point idea really well as is, every minute you get Riddle, every 2 minutes you get brotherhood, every minute and a half you get riddle of wind, but between all of that you get to use Perfect balance for a blitz, so it gives monk the feeling of getting to do something exciting while waiting for your buff windows, but yeah, a lot of the other jobs just feel like extended versions of what MCH used to feel like; once a minute you get a huge burst, then you go back to white knucklling your boring 1 2 3 combo until the buff window is back again.

@SubduedRadical

Жыл бұрын

I think it's how things sort of add up. GNB, for example, also does this. Every 30 sec you get a mini power point burst with Gnashing Fang combo and Blasting Zone. Every 60 seconds you get that and No Mercy and Double Down, Sonic Break, and Bow Shock. at 90 you get the 30 sec again. And at 2 mins you get those plus Bloodfest for extra Burst Strikes and fit within the overall party 2 min buff window. ...the problem is, how that's balanced. Double Down ALONE is a 1,200 potency strike. When all those buff windows align, that's huge. If you get a Crit Direct Hit on that, your day is made. If you don't get either, it's not. Worse, say you fat finger Double Down before No Mercy. You just cost yourself 1% of your total fight damage basically (you get what I mean - a significant chunk) The problem with the buff alignment is it makes the highs higher but the lows lower. If the halved Double Down's potency but put the "lost" potency into, say, Gnashing Fang's combo so that it mathed out the same, it would smooth that curve significantly, making the 30 sec burst higher and the 1 min and 2 min bursts a bit lower, smoothing/normalizing the curve to prevent the crazy spikes. In that case, missing a Crit Direct Hit on Double Down wouldn't be as punishing because statistically you'd be making it up with the more frequent Gnashing Fang getting Crits, and as you use GF more often, it means less chances of a single missed Crit gimpling you/more chances to get Crits. With GNB and MNK as examples, it's clearly possible to have more 30 sec microburst in Jobs. They just need to be tuning for that instead of for the 2 min alignments.

@andrewsmith3958

11 ай бұрын

I actually really enjoyed the game design where some jobs just had solid consistent damage through the course of the fight (MNK, BLM, SAM, etc.) and then others like NIN that had high burst points every 30 seconds or so. It felt much more unique playing each job and still provided job viability across the board.

@andrewsmith3958

11 ай бұрын

Also, it allowed for more uniqueness in party comp. Now you actually are more restricted in party comp so that you have enough jobs on the team that make FULL use of 2 min burst windows to ensure your dps is high enough to clear. Where as before so long as you performed well you could clear content with the dps of having like 3 phys ranged/casters on the team.

So true about mechanics that take more concentration happening right at the 2min burst window making it feel so much worse to get right.

As a casual, a lot of this is goin' on way over my head, but I do definitely feel like improving the desirability of some other stat materia would be nice. High-Tenacity tank sounds like a cool melding direction, but generally speaking I'm advised that the tank oughta focus on Crit/Direct Hit like the others; skill speed and spell speed seem to only be valued in certain specific setups, and I don't hear a lot about any job that wants to prioritize Determination. I don't know nearly enough about game design to make an informed suggestion of HOW, but I think it would be neat if 7.0 aimed to make other materia shine as much as Savage Aim and Heaven's Eye.

@Zakon673

Жыл бұрын

I'm really late to this conversation but I wanted to mention that if you're a casual, there's a good chance you actually should be melting Tenacity. The crit/direct hit thing is because Tenacity isn't that useful against bosses who hit in slow, predictable patterns. What Tenacity is good for, though, is mitigating lots of little hits - like AoE dungeon pulls, for example. If most of what you do involves content like that, Tenacity is a great stat.

I think on top of the rigidity of playing a job around these buff windows is also a rigidity of job design. Every job has to be designed around these timings. There's no room for more creative or interesting job designs based on things like managing procs or reducing cooldowns and stuff like that. The original Spear card was an interesting idea I think, but it just didn't work because of buff windows. I can't really think of any way to fix that aside from just removing raid buff windows altogether and just letting everyone do their own burst whenever it's available. I'd be fine with that, but I know people like their raid buffs.

I'm all for the pros of the 2 minute, but I wouldn't give up things like skill expression and class individuality for it. I would love to see some changes to the job balance soon, if not definitely by 7.0.

@yanipheonu

Жыл бұрын

Well put. DPS balance is fine, but when we're stripping down Job identity and individuality for that balance, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate things.

the point about boss mechanics that might inforce downtime coming up at the 2 minute window, to me it kinda shows that job designers and battle designers need to meet each other a bit more imo but all aside, I think most of us would agree that having more spread out burst windows with stronger than others is way more interesting from gameplay experience standpoint than the current 2 minute meta

Yay! Been waiting for this vid. Well said

Solution: Player controlled burst windows. Execution: Playing "well" (avoiding damage downs, avoiding deaths, completing "combos", dealing damage, mitigating, taking damage, 'res'ing, and using skills (especially those with long cool downs)) all go toward a personal "heat" that grants buffs to the character's damage or role significant capabilities (tanks tanking and healers healing or shielding) and stabilizes damage variance. When a limit bar is gained and used, it gives access to a "burst window" you do more damage regardless of what class used it, gain a party wide role specific buff, and have the ability to "preform beyond your limits". Essentially the party is "judged" during this time period if they do well enough to meet the limit that was expended they are rewarded with a permanent party battle high. The more bars used the higher the requirement to reach the limit. Different role based limits could grant different effects and personal "heat" could have great synergy with party windows for highs. Do you want to design a team with a more potent window, do you want one with a more frequent window etc etc. Players are encouraged to learn the mechanics of a fight, avoid making mistakes, use ALL of their skills, and assist their allies as much as possible; the ability of the party should reflect these things. We already have the lore based concept of Dynamis why not make it a dynamic action implemented into the actual gample play?

I feel like homogenizing buff windows was what players have been asking for because before that was a thing, I see *so* many spreadsheets and all that stuff just for the buff windows. At least that's what I've seen when I was a filthy casual back in the day. Though the fact that you mentioned "what if you missed the buff windows, then it feels way worse" made me realize why I actually gave up raiding. People get super anal over it nowadays and while some people enjoy the "strict" rhythm games, I don't.

I gotta admit after having been on a break for a year and thinking of getting back into it. Hearing this makes me VERY hesitant to return. My first thought is 'i do not need this'.

I still think the idea of "community perception" is literally just "people in pfs parroting what big streamer said without the original context of it being week 1 savage raid tiers." It's especially noticabl3 when this is was a savage race compared to the Ultimate we got in 6.1 since most people were honestly more enamored by the spectical compared to how jobs were doing in those.

@mamayareborn

Жыл бұрын

I've been saying this for a while, but community perception is the only thing driving this type of thing into the spotlight to begin with. The vast, **vast** majority of people commenting on this issue are blue parse joes who have no idea what they're talking about. And the intricasies of the issues presented in the video don't affect that same majority whatsoever. I mean hell, most players don't even match their 2 min windows because they're not good enough to perform their opener+rotation properly. They may not even itemize properly at all.

I think it'd be cool if jobs had something like loose buff windows in time brackets, like Healers have roughly 30 sec, Mages have 1 min, Melees have 1.5 min, and Tanks have 2 min, or some variation just throwing numbers out there cause im but a smol sprout. Within those lets say PLD has a 2 min window, DRK has a 1:45 window, WAR has a 1:50 window, and GNB has a 1:55 window by cooldown. That way there are still cool overlap windows but theres a bit of variation to the classes where they dont quite line up, and it might be worth holding OGCDs for a moment so that you hit during a vulnerable or NIN Trick Attack. Of course this is extremely rough speculation but it'd be nice to see some variation to make those jobs feel more unique, your timings are your own and sometimes you have to hold an OGCD and coordinate to make the most of the kit. Regardless, im not really a fan of this rigid 'do it this way at this time every single time' mentality its pushing for people that do the harder content. Id understand if that was only true for the highest end content fresh off the press, but it would still feel a lot less fun to basically be a dps robot at risk of failing if you miss a single cast because the boss decided to be untargetable. Unrelated but I still wish they would add a Spell for BLM that would move their Ley Lines to their current location. Even put it on a tank invul timer like +200sec, just make a way to fix that timing drift or for when you pop it as a boss decides to aoe you ;-;

A lot of points well raised here. The one that I think hits home is the feel of a good run. As a PLD high end player. I personally disagree that the job itself feels bad. Amongst tanks, the rotation and optimisation to make a gcd mapped perfect run still feels great. The new 6.2 slow rotation may not adps the shit out of 2 minute windows , but getting those optimal potencies worked out around downtime etc. still feels right in its current form. However. Even within PLD an outlier to the meta, circle of scorn being locked at 30. No hp management for explasion. Makes perfect runs feel less satisfying when you pull em off. As it’s more a guitar hero 100% feeling than acting on impulse and reacting feeling. BUT the extended atonement and magic stacks, which allows creativity in optimisation is great and does feel good when you pull off a modified gcd map. It scares me people see PLD as the outlier and should be changed. Tbh. I think the stacks should symbolise the way you can be creative even with 2 minute power peaks from the team. Just get the devs to work on overall adps across 8/9 flowing gcd and we good. My thoughts x

While I'd like to see the 2-minute, party wide buff window meta reduce a bit. (Focus on stronger, flexible single target buffs akin to Eye, Devilment, Cards on different CDs)... I think the real trick is to utilise the charge system. It's made Perfect Balance so flexible (even if the goal is to fit everything into two minutes) and makes adapting over delayed bursts genuinely fun. It was interesting to utilise in Thordan too with all the downtime and weird phase push points. I imagine DRG with a charge system on High Jump may be feeling a lot more happy when they have to disconnect during the CD for example.

I already watched this video and clicked again cause of the thumbnail All those delicious buffs on the thumbnail trigger the dopamine in my brain

Great video and good food for thought. Also oh my god extract materia from your gear.

Monk and Dancer feel the way you describe because their rotations are random as shit due to procs.

The fight design is really the worst part about it. Your 2 minutes are often when the big movement and dance mechanics are going on Having the "tough to keep uptime" mechanics outside of 2 minutes would help raise the skill floor. And it would present a challenge to skilled players to align their burst window resources properly by getting enough uptime outside of 2 minutes

As a returning and basically new player, I don't mind the 1 and 2 minutes burst. However I do agree that it would be much more fun and less punishing if it was 30, 60, and 90 second bursts.

Think both are needed need variety of dps styles and windows with a balance dot by the end of the longer fights. However they also need to make the fights utilize those windows both in endgame and leveling so the gap not so big jumping to endgame.

I really saw this coming when I did Diamond Weapon. I noticed that the sides lined up perfectly to 2 minutes with the swapping of sides. So I practiced the 2 minute buff alignments with my groups on various job roles. It really taught the importance of tight timings. So I kinda like it as a way to promote static culture and raid alignment. But it does seem a bit harder on some jobs than others. It seems the big controversy is if you balance on job difficulty, job utility, or just equalize jobs within a job role. We see tanks are more balanced despite different difficulty, black mage higher because of difficulty, and machinist lower because of simplicity. It just seems like we shouldn’t have it all the different ways.

I like 2 minute buff windows. I understand Mr. Happy's and other high end raider's frustration. They've hit the cieling that has notably been lowered, and even here when they die or something messes up they cannot outskill the death and they lose a bunch of DPS on it because there is no more room to go up. So obviously they want it to return to the way it was, to give them the wiggle room they need to show their immense skill and be able to overcome common raid adversities. But from someone nearer to the skill floor, 2 minute buffs have been super helpful in just aligning our monkey brain raid teams into being able to do higher end content we never thought we'd be able to do before, like week 1 EX trial was beyond us for Shadowbringers, and now we've gone and cleared EX4 week 1. Maybe we've gotten better, but not having to minutely plan our 30's, 60's, 90's etc to line up at precise points have made this a lot better for us. So in summary, I do hope they go with the first suggesstion Happy laid out in diminshing the job rigidity. It is by far the more complicated fix, rather than simple reversion, but it will probably improve player's of all skill level's experience, albeit perhaps not all to the same degree.

As a newer player, I find it relieving to have my rotation “on rails” just because I feel my energy should be focused on mechanics rather than dps, but I also find the rigidity of the timing to be way too strict just because you’re supposed to be using your abilities EXACTLY off-cooldown and that can be messed up so easily in the heat of battle. Honestly, I think it would help to have a system where you could activate your buffs a little earlier, but at a slight penalty.

was lf to happy's take on this, watchig asap

Stormblood was peak combat for me (at last on the jobs that I played)

That's one of the rough things about PLD, you are on a very strict CD rotation for mitigating TBs in this tier because they really hurt, especially the DoT which is only really reduced with the little 4 second defence buff on sheltron and even then, rampart, sheltron just doesn't mitigate enough, you practically need reprisal on busters and even then, DRK, WAR and GNB have excess CDs they can stack on to reduce that damage or more self healing and shielding to alleviate that damage. This difference can be the difference between life and death if someone hasn't healed a PLD in that fight before and that can lead to timings being messed up or worse still, reprisal is up but you don't have the time to build the MP for the burst window. You don't know how many times I've been asked to CD a tank buster when I rampart, sheltron and reprisal a buster and even sheltron to reset the regen as the first one drop, we're talking that level of optimisation and people can't even notice it. Let's not even talk about the gauge... on a 2.44 GCD that's a 24.4 second CD for 1 sheltron, or intervention or cover. So basically for sheltron in this raid tier because you can't afford to be giving others your already limited CDs when their jobs are fine for CDs.

I'm not a savage raider, the highest tier content I've done is a few extremes, but for what it's worth I dislike that there's no way to recover from mistakes or delay. I think reworking rotations so every job has a few filler CD's in its rotation that can be dropped relatively easily to get back into alignment (like samurai) and reducing the 1 or 2 minute to something like 55 and 115 seconds respectively would go some way to make the two minute buff window not feel as restrictive. Of course that could then mean you have to always align with those timings but that could be fixed by adjusting the timing on mechanics so mechanics that hinder your ability to focus on and execute the burst window end at 2 minutes on the dot.

I think something that would be nice to see in Endwalker is actually give those different timer buffs to different archetypes. I think 2 minute buffs are fine if they were only on the melee DPS, but I've been recently convinced that the ranged should have the 30/60/90 buffs, with casters getting 60/90 buffs, while physical ranged having 30/60 buffs. It should hopefully allow these archetypes to be a proper support role for all parties by being able to help out sustain damage jobs while being a pick up point for melees who messed up, or were forced to disengage.

@anthonydelfino6171

Жыл бұрын

people would naturally realign their skills to fit, though. Even if the windows don't naturally align. We've already seen this when for years you had people put up things like "this is your rotation if you're running with a ninja" So is it worse that Square just made them naturally align as compared to us forcing them into alignment outside of that?

@VideogamesPang

Жыл бұрын

@@anthonydelfino6171 That depends on exactly how strong the effect of alignment is though, which can be adjusted. If you're losing entire uses of your big attacks or whatever because you're holding them for alignment, it might end up worse off than just using stuff on cooldown. If stuff doesn't align naturally then the benefit of alignment is naturally reduced, but even if it's still a benefit, if it's a small enough benefit they won't need to balance around it like they do now.

@CADPgamer

Жыл бұрын

@@anthonydelfino6171 I don't know about you, but learning Monk, I've eventually learned that trying to save Riddle of Wind for bursts is a DPS Loss. Save for jobs like Warrior, who always save one charge of infuriate to catch up with burst windows, more often than not, the best way to get the most DPS is almost always using your abilities when they're up.

@anthonydelfino6171

Жыл бұрын

@@CADPgamer that's not what I was meaning, people used to adjust their skills, sometimes holding skills, before this expansion to align with other players, especially with trick attack windows. The way it is now, you just use everything when it's up, and if your teammates do the same, then your buffs just align on their own without the need to think about it. The 90 second skills don't naturally align, but monk they said they specifically wanted it's big skills not to align with buff windows, which is stupid... and also why we said we were going to force it, and created the double solar opener. So my question and point is, is it really worse that it just happens naturally now as compared to us forcing it all to align in expansions past?

As rdm that just entered this expansion and have only normals in mind. I have bad gear. I worry only about getting my buff out in 2 minutes burst windows. Cause you get free burst combo and you cant line up 2 combos in the time of your own buff (or at least get to the end of combo w/o lowering gcd). I just worry about pumping my damage up in between, not dying and lining my buff with everyone. Rdm gets so much coloured mana, basically you get your burst every 45- 60 seconds. (I usually manage to get 2-3 combos in the time between buffs)

I would say that, even as just some casual scrub that never touches much harder content, as someone who just simply has *fun* optimizing rotations and just using all of my buttons, even in normal content, hiccupping and falling out of alignment just doesn't feel good, it feels bad, and (maybe this sounds odd) actually intensifies the intimidation I feel towards approaching harder difficulty content; more so than in previous expansions. Even on here in casualville it feels restraining and samey, and I don't begrudge higher-end players having a higher ceiling to aspire to...

People are looking at the crit/DH during buff window problem incorrectly. The core causing this problem is potency creep.

Could do LITERAL 30s piwer points - more gauges like enochian with a timer, at the end of which it resets certain cooldowns. Youre then much more free to use the skills attached to the timer throughout it’s period. Such as if DRK’s numerous 60s abilities were reset every 60s. Of course optimally there will be only one timing, but that is true of all systems, it just reduces the strictness.

Regarding Crit variance, I think the game needs to reevaluate having crit chance and crit multiplier affected by the same stat.

Thank you for calling out the devs and where they place complex mechanics during 2 minute marks! It's been driving me crazy this whole tier, it's like "I KNOW they know we're trying to focus every 2 minutes and they throw this BS at us?!"

@anthonydelfino6171

Жыл бұрын

I was frustrated by it too... but part of me wonders if its how they're making allowances for people who aren't playing perfectly? Like if you died before devour in P5S, now you've got that whole mechanic to put yourself back in alignment for the latter half of the fight. Carbuncle goes untargetable for the whole mechanic, so it's just a matter of holding your burst till after that mechanic is done, and now it's more likely that more players will be in line.

@mamayareborn

Жыл бұрын

Why would they... do anything else though...? If they're going to make the boss just stand there for your 2 minute window then it may as well be a dummy. Forcing you to have to perform mechanics while also pressing your buttons in the right order is a form of challenge that can only happen in Savage, and it's pointless to want it to be any different. If the boss isn't doing anything for every burst phase you have, then there may as well not be any buffs at all since there's no challenge applying that damage to the boss.

@neoh7939

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn If that's the case, why is ultimate perfectly aligned with buffs? Thats the reason people never complained about buff timings on those fights. More so than the 2 minute buff window being the issue, the fact that the boss goes invulnerable or has a major mechanic at the 2 minute or 2:05 minute mark is not a way of making it more difficult, it just makes it more frustrating to play. Take for example TEA, buffs align perfectly to mechanics, or in UwU, you'll have the 2min burst up for every phase. Im not expecting the devs to take the same amount of effort into designing a single savage fight like they would with an ultimate fight, but saying that making you drift your gcds is the way savage works or should work is completely wrong.

The one thing that would make the most sense would be to buff Casters & Phys Ranged to deal as much damage as Melee, regardless if you bring utility or not. But in general I don't mind the 2-min meta.

@mamayareborn

Жыл бұрын

Almost nobody really minds the 2-min meta, because it's very easy to see by just spending a single afternoon on Party Finder that most people barely even get their CDs out on time, because they fuck up their own rotation or barely understand it to begin with. It's just the current thing to complain about. The people talking about this -- all 80% green parses of it -- will be **all** over it, and focusing on some other stupid shit to whine about next. It's just a question of how creative streamers can get about fabricating fake outrage for people to parrot.

@SoulReaperIsHere

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn I agree, it's being exaggerated for drama. Like every time they change the combat. People claim to wax nostalgic for previous expansions which had frankly tedious mechanics like Cleric Stance dancing, TP management (which if your party's DPS was low - would always run out), Sprint eating all your TP, cast bars on physical ranged, enmity management requiring skill (which meant that as BRD I could rip packs off a poor tank player) and more. All that stuff sounds great on paper for making a more engaging and thoughtful game but not if you mostly play, like most people I know, in DF/PF with randoms. The reality is, most of the FFXIV playerbase has always been meh as evidenced by long-term experience gained from spending time in PF for EXs/Savages. I'd rather have a simpler game where I can clear content with PF randoms than have a more complex games where I keep dying to enrage because of other people's incompetence. I also know that I'm not the issue as for hard content I regularly hit solid purples on a DET build healer (so suboptimal for DPS) when I'm not forced to spam GCD healing. Speaking of healer parses, you can tell that a lot of healers have no idea how to balance DPS/Healing. When I can die, spam GCD healing, have to make up for a DNC main moonlighting as a SGE (without ever doing Savage on healer before) who dies 4 times and uses their abilities poorly... and still get a blue DPS parse!? That shouldn't be possible... yet it is.

@yScribblezHD

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn In my experience a ton of people have had long standing issues with the standardized burst windows. In fact, it was a pretty big point of contention when trick attack was changed. The material problem with the 2m burst windows IMO is that it's boring as hell. When you know a fight it's muscle memory and you don't have to think, but unfortunately the same can be said for your rotation because there's nothing to think about. There are no comps that (should) adjust your individual rotation, it makes encounters really stale really quickly bc the other 7 people in your group really don't matter.

I was thinking about the rigidity problem, and I think the way to make this work, if they didn't want to reintroduce different CD buffs, is to actually allow someone to store 2 charges of major 120 second buffs, but begin combat with only 1. To preserve the new player friendliness, you would also do a UI change to allow major team buffs to be separated from the other buffs and be potentially highlighted to help them understand that burst windows were happening. This wouldn't really fix the balance problem of handling DPS burst windows, and there might be some weird outliers (someone would probably come up with some weird double Technical Step setup or something to take advantage of TS' high potency, for example), but it would allow some more flexibility for the team to figure out when to burst/how to burst.

@sawyer3244

Жыл бұрын

That would only create 4 minutes...

@ancientspark375

Жыл бұрын

@@sawyer3244 Your CD is still 120 seconds. You still burst every 2 minutes. The point is that although you gain a new charge every 120 seconds, you don't have to spend it immediately when you get a charge off CD, you have some leeway to handle drifting or better timing. No one in their right mind in this system would wait until 4 minutes to unload two burst windows in succession, because you're risking way more drifting and it's way more awkward to handle that many GCDs in succession into mechanics (not to mention most classes wouldn't even have the resources to do two burst combos in succession).

I still don't understand how having more varied buff windows, instead of just 120s, led to the skill ceiling being higher. In the end, whether or not the buff windows are normalized across the board, you still want to play in the same way - press stuff on cooldown and minimize deaths so you don't drift your oGCDs. The solution has always been to learn how to play around the mechanics so you keep uptime, don't break your rotation and don't die.

@DawnAfternoon

Жыл бұрын

120s allows no recovery in your gameplay. If you've missed your 120s window, you're fucked and you cannot salvage your damage no matter what. This is actually a bad design cause it kills a facet of player skill expression to recover from your mistakes. Pre-EW type of varied window however, gives you many options to slot in your bursts during the 60s, 90s, or even 180s burst window if you for some reason missed out on your 120s. It gives you the option to salvage your gameplay, and maybe, just maybe, you can make that 0.1% DPS check enrage.

I'm not a raider, but based on this vid it sounds like the 2-min window is time for you to pop off, but the boss makes you wait...so is that when you do your opener again? Every 2 mins?

@notverynotoriousg5674

Жыл бұрын

you still have the 2 min windows, the animations are in dungeons like Vanaspati and regular raids like proto-bahamut.

Thank you mr happy

Balance revolving around 2-min burst windows has opened its own can of worms, that's for sure. I kind of agree having a shorter and more frequent windows so it will not penalize player deaths since said windows are not too far apart. Although I might suggest that each job to not adjust its timings with the current windows(or new if they plan to change it in the future). Using PLD for this example, I am fine with it having a very strict rotation but why not just buff its potencies so it will even out the numbers vs adjusting the entire rotation to fit the new/adjusted burst windows. To simplify what I am saying: let's say a certain job's rotation has a benchmark of doing X, on let's say a 1-minute rotation, per 2-minute burst window when played optimally -- if the burst window is shortened, instead of adjusting the rotation to fit the new burst window, why not just tweak the potencies without changing the rotation itself to still yield the same dps in every burst window. That way, instead of having a lot of reworks on jobs that will get heavily affected by tweaking burst windows, only their potencies are adjusted. Save the reworks for bloat. Also, we're too conditioned to abilities off cooldown is wasted potential. If a job will have its own buff that does not stack with raid-wide buffs, I think, will alleviate this situation. So if everytime they missed it due to player death, they can have something to use to bounce back, mitigating further the penalty they have incurred from dying. The game needs to re-introduce some brain cells in its rotations rather than what we have at the moment.

@maxmustermann3938

Жыл бұрын

Regarding PLD, for tanks you kind of have to look at aDPS instead of rDPS. In rDPS, PLD is actually pretty high, but it is low in aDPS since it doesn't leverage raid buffs as well. If you now try to balance it so its damage is better in terms of aDPS, that means PLD is going to deal way more damage than any tank if the party has a low amount of buffs going on. That is the problem that is created by this focus on 2-minute windows, you simply CAN'T properly balance a job that does not play into them.

My main gripe is absolutely that every boss seems to do a huge spread mechanic or just jump away exactly every 2 minutes. Other than that I don't really mind what they do as long as it isn't super broken. I like different playstyles and learning them all from expansion to expansion, of course there are some that I prefer over others but I don't think that takes away from the fun of it!

A 2 minute buff window would be fine if no raid wide buffs existed that have to fall inline with everyone else. I think if you removed the raid wide dps buffs and made they personal only it wouldnt be as huge of an issue. The problem is damage is now so massively dependent on being able to be active in those 2 minute windows that if youre not, you lose a massive portion of your damage and thats not ok imo. Reaper is actually one the worst for this kind of design. If a Reaper dies with double enshroud ready right before a 2 minute burst, theyre losing an insane amount of damage, lose all of their resources, and are now down an additional 25% dmg ontop of it. Right now the punishment for dying is way more significant than it has ever been before because of the 2 minute buff window and some deaths arent even in the players control either such as if a tank dies and the dps get targeted with a tank buster. Either moving away from 2 minute buff windows and changing it back to 30/60/90/120 or removing raid wide buffs and making it only personal buffs while keeping the 2 minute windows is really the only way to solve this problem atm. The 2 minute buff windows while it has its merits that make it nice, it makes the game feel way more boring and deaths just feel way worse than they ever have before.

@xvcxvcxvcvcxxvc6008

Жыл бұрын

Bard also feels shit dying, you lose the song Codas for radiant Finale buff, your current song which forces you to delay the next song. Same with Red Mage, losing that meter is painful. Meanwhile, Summoner gets to keep their gems for the summons

Honestly as a blue tier paladin I have never payed any heed to buff windows. But paladin's skillset is so backloaded, and SO rigid, these days, that it's become impossible to pot optimally. I either miss the buff window completely or I miss the strongest skills in my toolbox which are 40 seconds into the freaking fight. That said I'm really scared at how they would address this.

Love playing bard and the boss is gone for 75%, of my burst window but i cant delay it or things will drift and I'll be fucked for the rest of the fight. Also love dying to raidwides riiiiight as i hit tech step. Sure realigning on dnc is hella easy but MAN it feels BAD bc my burst window is the only reason im there lbr

Critical Direct hits in the current game result in about 2x damage over a base hit, which is an entirely unholy damage swing. Considering how many raid buffs go out, and how empty damage can be outside of burst windows, you can end up with 20s of combat that do as much or more than 90s of combat otherwise. Having such consistent, MASSIVE spikes of damage built into the encounter via job design means falling out of them makes your team impotent, and getting bad RNG means you just lose some raids because half of your damage did not exist because "fuck you, I guess." --- I think that the viability of restarting pulls to fish for crits is just as bad as how much gear you can get by 8-alt gear mashing savage fights to get BiS in two weeks. Sure, it's not something most players are going to do due to time investment, but the fact that there is an optimal path through the game that is [ t h i s ] degenerate is not ok and indicates extremely flawed game design that should be addressed to maintain the health of the game.

Its either that or the tanks have to weave half their Mit into the buff window because TBs are happening right on top *cough cough* Hegemone

Very well said

Keeping 2 minutes as the main skeleton of the design, but sprinkling 1mins (like Flourish) and 30 second mini cds into various rotations would be the best solution, IMO. I don't like the puzzle of trying to fit various CDs that only line up every fourth or sixth pass together. I feel like that is just worse. I also wish raid buffs would just become a lot less impactful, and the jobs who rely on them for a significant chunk of their rDPS would get a personal dps boost instead. You can retain the fun supportive nature of tech step and devilment without them needing to make up 25% of the dancer's output. It could be 10% and still be fun. I feel like the MCH vs BRD/DNC(whichever is currently higher at any given point) debate is a really hard one to settle. DNC is currently putting out about 2% more median DPS than MCH at 75th percentile. If MCH were doing 2% more DPS than DNC/BRD, you'd basically be killing those jobs, right? You're telling me I can do more dps on a job that has zero requirement for my party to play well? Why would I choose the job that does less damage AND outsources between 10 and 20% of that lesser damage to seven other people who can die, drift, or grief? There just would be no reason to do so. It's just like the current BLM debate. BLM probably should be doing slightly more aDPS because it doesn't have a rez and is behind most melee at most percentiles, but can you buff that job without basically killing RDM and SMN? Not really. I think the only solution is to nerf raid buffs by a big percentage, and buff raid buff jobs' personal dps values to bring them a lot closer to MCH/BLM/SAM. Otherwise, the raid buff jobs always have to have a slight (~1-2%) edge or there becomes no reason to bring them, as you can do better damage on your own without having to worry about your party fudging up the damage you're loaning to them.

@d1stant590

Жыл бұрын

honestly one of the reasons I hated the ninja rework of trick attack. It was the only 1 min buff and because of that it actually made your 1 min burst rotation mean something.

for paladin at least this aged relatively well. while it does still need some very minor tweaking, it's very very minor. For the most part paladin fits the bill of what you wanted in job design if they maintained a 2 minute window. though in paladins case it's 1 minute. However it has a LOT of freedom within it's rotation, is actually very mobile even at range for a tank, and outside the stat penalty on death, it can realign where it needs to be quite easily. With the obvious exception being death during your fight or flight confeteir combo. but you have so much freedom within even that combo to deal with boss mechanics It leaves me with an odd sense with the upcoming dragoon rework. I LOVE where dragoon is right now, as do most dragoon players. It feels like one of the most fleshed out a job can be. A few minor quirks to it, like disengaging into a wall, or very heavy punishment if you drift jumps > mirage dive. However if the rework ends up closer to paladins. Where it keeps the core rotation and core identity of the job. but slightly alleviates some of the rigid aspects, in this case jump > mirage dive drifting. then we'll be set. But how do you further that with more skills in a new expansion, and fix the present stuff? I'm not sure tbh. But at least I'm dreading it a little less, and potentially hopeful If it was me, I'd code jump and mirage dive to be on a shared 2 charge system at 30 seconds. Each being able to activate mirage dive, same potency, but let jump consider your present location and not where your jumping to for AoE calculations, and spine shatter to actually close distance. This way you could still jump/mirage dive when forced out of melee with the boss, and hopefully not punish you too hard for boss downtime. since you could use one of them before downtime and one more right after. It would also fix the drifting of jump that is basically unavoidable, but make a slightly more cursed opener with 2 jumps and 2 mirage dives. So long as they keep the core rotation of dragoon basically as it stands, I'd be ok with various ways of entering life windows and starting a burst phase. Such as a 1 minute dragonfire dive forcing a life window instead of mirage dives. If button bloat is ever a thing, they could simply let feng and claw + wheeling thrust become the same button. though for me that'd take some re-learning of muscle memory.

There should be more overlap of dps spectrum between jobs, the practical dps cap should rely on players' performances. Then its relative easier to balance the dps check, because they can draw the line across all the jobs more clearly. But this is not casual friendly, I don't think they'll change the design direction until the next raid tier also fail at balance.

@mamayareborn

Жыл бұрын

This is by far the dumbest take here. Designing Jobs to be too reliant on player performance widens the gap between top end and low end players, resulting in output varying too wildly, which makes balancing boss HP and enrage timers effectively impossible. I don't think you've given this a single minute of thought. And this is the problem with community dictating game design decisions. You people have no clue how to design a videogame.

@moonsnow4824

Жыл бұрын

@@mamayareborn I mean, one job's lowest dps should not be higher than 70% or even 80% of the other one's. If this is true, how can you draw the dps check line between the two jobs fairly, while inferior job should perform perfectly but the stronger job only have to put 70-80% efforts into it. They design jobs' dps around the difficulty of rotation and job role.

Being a Tank player, if they go this 2 minute way, the only way I see going forward is to remove rotations altogether. What I mean is that the burst is flat out independent from the main rotation. PLD has 2 paths, and once on that, you cannot move from it. But its burst is in the same place every time based on your rotation so it cant do anything with raid buffs. GNB dodges this because your Gnashing Fang combo is independent. You activate it when you need to, you can place your debuffs or buffs around it, and GNB doesnt really have a loop so its filler moves dont really matter, so long as you activate your buffs around the window. DRK is almost the same way, you literally hit your ogcds around the buffs. Downtime doesnt matter cause even if you hold your burst, your burst wasnt dependent on where you were inside it. Funny enough, MCH is the same way. Wildfire can be moved, your heated shots dont effect how it goes. Only a few moves actually matter, the rest of the moves are just filler. Reaper is the same, but the problem is that since its job depends on gauge during downtime, its damage for its burst is low, but that can be fixed a reworked skill or something. But the problem isnt the 2 min window as much as how dependent that burst is on your rotation.

If 2 minute buff windows are so important, there should be more indication or visual encouragement of their timing so players know they need to use them. I have seen many players not even know they should push these buff buttons at all, nevermind time when they push them. The dps loss from that is painful, and puts me in a position to ask them to use a skill at the risk of them calling me toxic.

It’s horrible for blm, trying to time blm’s LL with party buffs while thinking whether or not I should move away for mechanics

As a tank main, I feel like GNB and PAL have the most rigid rotations. It’s such a DPS loss when you wiff a gcd or two 😢

@thebrave9971

Жыл бұрын

As a GNB main, I agree for the most part, there's a little bit of leeway here and there, but if you mess up anything in No Mercy, you lose, an absolute insane amount of damage compared to any other part of your rotation, and there is genuinely no real recovery from that dps loss in the game at the moment

Personally I wish they had a mix of the shorter bursts windows i.e. 30 seconds and to promote skilled group play keep the group buffs from classes at the 180 seconds.

Thank you! Finally someone bringing up the problem of how absolutely set in stone and rigid the rotations for jobs are and how it leads to a horrible gameplay experience as soon as you cant perform the exact 2 minute rotation flawlessly without interruption. It also leads to some jobs being forced into really weird and awkward rotations to force themselves to fit in that 2minute window. This is the biggest reason I have quit ff for now, I have no expectations they will fix it but hopefully.

EW's "Balance" on 2mins is complete sheit, I enjoyed Shadowbringer's style a lot more than what we have now.

brd finale needs to be indipendent of songs, and many jobs like monk and drg need their 2 min cds combined to reduce bloat

pvp jobs are the only time i feel like a originaly unique class lol pve i just mindlessly press my rotation

Admittedly, jobs that couldn’t make use of 2 mins are thrown under the bus kindof, but I cannot deny the joy of lining myself up perfectly for each 2 min buff windows. The sensation of doing the optimal rotation is strengthened dramatically because the stakes are so high (2 mins being so strong). Also hitting big number make happy chemical go brrr

my perspective is coming from like, mostly doing casual content, sometimes extremes, i healed e5-e8s and tanked p1s-p2s but the statics i wind up getting invited to have a tendency to break down from interpersonal drama and the strict scheduling and repetition of the same fights over and over aren't really enjoyable to me and i'm still a little traumatized from the like, 3 or 4 months of being stonewalled just on e8s progression because again That Static Had Problems, so all this to say i am mainly a Tryhard Casual. i look up my rotations and openers, i always try to do the best i can within my ability, optimize as i can within reason considering the chaos of DF content, will PF higher-end content in the sub-savage levels, but i am not really A Savage Raider so coming from that mostly-casual perspective, the 2min windows have been kind of a double edged sword. it is a lot easier to capitalize on buff windows now than it was for me in shb, i know very distinctly "ok the buffs are up, it's time to jam", it's satisfying to be able to optimize around them, save up resources to spend at the right time, etc. but it has also led to a lot of completely pointless frustration, because like, normal content is sippy cup level, obviously the buff windows do not fucking matter one onze in aglaia, but it still irks me when we start the fight and i put out embolden and and i see searing light and divination drop at the same time and im like "okay cool this is good i can work with this", and then 2 minutes later i slap that embolden on cooldown and then the searing light doesn't hit until the embolden's got 1 second left and then the divination is just thrown in fuckin 6 years later like it got lost in the mail. and like i dont call people out for this (...99.99% of the time) because it doesn't fucking matter and is a completely pointless thing to make someone else in duty roulette feel bad about, but... because the buff windows are so much easier to see now, it's that much easier to witness when someone fucks up, and have a toxic gamer brain about it so the two edges of that sword are "feeling good about being able to more easily optimize" "getting needlessly grumpy when someone isn't playing their heart out smacking every button on time in alliance roulette". and also the thing you mentioned of like, "oh, i died right at 2 mins, guess i will just walk right out of this fight and go live in a cave in the mountains for the rest of my life". trick and mug falling out of alignment now gives me the same kind of existential dread that dragoon did when i briefly tried it in e9-10s, where one thing slipping makes it feel like you just live in hell for the rest of the fight ultimately.. 2 minutes is kind of nice in its own ways, it makes it a lot easier to optimize your burst windows and know when you're doing it correctly, it gives kind of a nice ebb and flow for many jobs where you stick to maintenance time and then really Go Ham on the buttons when the time comes.. but i think it's less interesting, it has less room for different optimization and flexibility, it makes it easier to be gamer brain about shit that doesn't matter, it makes bigger highs and bigger lows in terms of both damage and emotions depending whether you mess up or not, it makes it easier to be permanently thrown out of the loop of an encounter. and it does also contribute to that creeping feeling of homogenization/over-smoothing that i've been getting bit by bit from endwalker. not enough to make me be like "the game is bad now/definitely headed in a terrible direction" and i think a lot of my dread is just normal resistance to change, especially since shb was the first time i actually ever caught up with the endgame so this is the first time ive truly seen and felt the effect of endgame changes. but stuff like classes being funneled in similar directions, buff windows all being standardized, or charming jank being removed from old dungeons, it does all make me feel a bit like maybe things are being polished just a bit too much, where some of the crunch and rough edges that made things interesting are slowly being eroded overall i think it probably was healthier to have the intersecting mess of constant weirdly-timed buffs, because at lower levels it distributes the damage more evenly and makes fuckups less apparent and less punishing, and at a higher level allows greater mastery and more interesting planning and adapting. i guess this is my 5-paragraph essay to say "yeah overall i think i basically agree, albeit from a less hardcore perspective"

I’d much prefer going back to having multiple burst windows. The only caveat is that I don’t want anything like old Presence of Mind or Battle Voice which had cooldowns that didn’t align well with any burst window and had to be held. I also think it’d be healthiest to have 3 or 4 burst windows with at least one job from every role being in that window. Perhaps we should even consider having the selfish jobs from each role within the same window that doesn’t align with raid buffs, giving more depth to how they play against what is in their party and more reason why they should deal more damage for not having raid buffs. Something like: 150s SGE, MCH, DRK, SAM, BLM 120s AST, DNC, GNB, RPR, SMN 90s WHM, BRD, WAR, DRG, RDM 60s SCH, NIN, PLD, MNK, -