Now for the sequel "Dismissing Neverland" after their cases got dismissed again in court 2020.

@Nuggetsin4

2 жыл бұрын

Doesn’t mean Jackson didn’t molested them

@t.j6457

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nuggetsin4 yes indeed .. the earth could be flat🤣🤣🤣 Dan r = 💩🤑💩🖕🖕

@Giannis-zm5no

Жыл бұрын

@@Nuggetsin4 and what does it mean for you ??? 😂😂😂

@ellobo3175

Жыл бұрын

@@Nuggetsin4 Let me accuse you of child molestation even though I have no evidence to back up my claims. Doesn't mean you didn't molest them. Now what?

@Nuggetsin4

Жыл бұрын

@@ellobo3175 lol well let’s look at the difference between me and Jackson. I don’t sleep with and surround myself with little boys, he does. I don’t have “art books” with pictures of naked little boys, coincidentally the same age as the ones I sleep with. He does. I don’t have 5+ accusers of child molestation, he does. I don’t fit the profile of a preferential predator to a T, he does. I don’t have dozens of people with corroborating stories in regards to my inappropriate behaviour with little boys, he does. I could go on but surely you see how me and your pedophile idol aren’t really the same.

Dan GREED "The film is not about Michael Jackson" Proceeds to bash him for 4 hours.

@jalonahughes4755

5 жыл бұрын

Yes it is about Michael Jackson they talk about being molested by Michael Jackson which by the way Michael Jackson is not the one who molesting them

@summerviolins2011

5 жыл бұрын

LOL! Amen!

@jalonahughes4755

5 жыл бұрын

I don't know why people say that is not about Michael Jackson when it is about Michael Jackson because they talk about the house that he used to live in they make it seem as if Michael Jackson molesting them in that house they trying to make it sound like as if Neverland ranch is house for luring children in that house knowing Michael Jackson you never do that the house was for people enjoying they selfs and be like children at Neverland ranch was about reed living their childhood Neverland ranch was a house that makes everybody happy and not hate Neverland ranch people should know that Michael Jackson build that house so he can have a childhood life that he never hey

@ttniv1280

5 жыл бұрын

He's not here to refute any of it so that alone I have a problem with. In this metoo era it seems you can do this to anyone, living or dead.

@valentinesolko4039

5 жыл бұрын

Okay so would you claim MJ sucked you off for $. Because that's what you're accusing you these guys of doing. Who woyld wanna admit that michael jackson buttfucked tyem when they were a kid. Why are you accusing children of lying. Others came forward. Were they lying too?

But did you include the zero evidence that was found?

@SD-kg8hu

5 жыл бұрын

How about the wedding ring that he gave the little boy he was blowing.

@jt9096

5 жыл бұрын

@@SD-kg8hu This link is the Released FBI Investigated on Michael Jackson. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fI2F0MVtipSzj8Y.html The FBI Investigated Michael Jackson for 10 years. Not to mention the District Attorney of California hated MJ. MJ was innocent of all charges.

@bigt9972

5 жыл бұрын

I guess him sleeping with a 8 year old boy that he just ment, alone in the room with the doors lock means Michael Jackson didn't do anything to him. Michael sleeps with more then just one boy alone in his room with doors lock and you guys think nothing happen. I feel sorry for your guys kids. The real question is would you guys let your kids sleep with Michael Jackson alone in the room with the doors lock?

@SG-yu6em

5 жыл бұрын

@@SD-kg8hu and there's no evidence of where the ring came from.. he could've stolen it out his mums jewellery box for all you know.

@catecaudill6141

5 жыл бұрын

@@bigt9972 He literally isn't here to defend himself. You're literally believing proven liars. That's a shame. You're really ignoring 10+ years of an FBI investigation that literally found nothing. When I'm saying that there is no evidence of him doing anything wrong I really mean it. You gotta believe stuff that's showed on a magazine and a TV screen i'm assuming? That's what it seems like. Know what you're getting into before you even get into the situation.

so much blue on this set.

@hippopotamus5819

4 жыл бұрын

marlene g omg that made me crack the frick up 😂🤣😂🤣

@whiteheart9218

4 жыл бұрын

marlene g true my eyes are now blue too

@samthemotherlover

3 жыл бұрын

wow i haven't noticed that BAHHAHA XD

@annalee4508

3 жыл бұрын

Blue is symbolic color of credibility

@jasminkrieger8228

2 жыл бұрын

I love blue green through not

This man says he couldn't find anything to contradict these two men's NEW claims??? *WHAT ABOUT THE TESTIMONY THEY BOTH GAVE AS ADULTS SAYING IT NEVER HAPPENED*

@jesussquad2813

5 жыл бұрын

EXACTLY

@jereniahbullock8437

5 жыл бұрын

He's lying about his story

@jereniahbullock8437

5 жыл бұрын

They keep saying the same thing say this film it's not by Michael Jackson it is about Michael Jackson they lying to you

@gerrywi92

5 жыл бұрын

@@jereniahbullock8437 Funny how Dan Reed always claims this isn't a documentary about MJ and then titles it 'Leaving Neverland'😂😂 in another clip he even admits he was looking for a big story people would be interested in and then got the tip. So it is about attention rather than about justice and caring about victims. He could have done a docu about any famous pedo who is alive but nothing sells better than MJ right 😊

@jereniahbullock8437

5 жыл бұрын

I don't understand if this guy is lying about his story y'all know lying how about his story y'all don't even care it just will destroy Michael Jackson's Legacy will tell you something Michael Jackson it's not going nowhere he will be here for a long time

Making money over MJ... They will die and MJ will live forever

@user-gi6ee8vj1y

4 жыл бұрын

MJ will live forever? Really?

@brent2050

4 жыл бұрын

R R He’s talking about his name and music that has made his legacy🤦‍♂️

@11Garrett11

4 жыл бұрын

You like Michael Jackson’s music. We get it. He also clearly molested those boys. Both of these things can coincide. Lol

@magicjacket7673

4 жыл бұрын

@@11Garrett11 They changed their stories to make a quick buck off of a man who treated them like his own children and isn't even alive to defend himself. That maid also clearly lied. There's no way that she saw all those things and only came forward after he died.

@giannamccord

4 жыл бұрын

Garrett1111 you just got 𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙞𝙥𝙪𝙡𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙙 by Wade Robson

Oh it's not about Michael Jackson? Really? It's called "Leaving Neverland" and the whole thing is about what Michael supposedly did to these two men.

@jalonahughes4755

5 жыл бұрын

Leaving Neverland is part of Michael Jackson house so it is about Michael Jackson those guys are lying about being molested by Michael Jackson and by the way wade Robson and James safechuck is not a real victims if they are real victims then they need to go Do a lie detector test

@bigt9972

5 жыл бұрын

@@jalonahughes4755 how do you know they are lieing? Because its Micheal jackson? Michael Jackson sleeps with little boys alone in the bedroom with the doors lock and nothing happen. You are sad. People just dont want to believe it I guess.

@jalonahughes4755

5 жыл бұрын

@llahmitswr I don't have to look at the documentary because I know that they are lying about being molested by Michael Jackson you should go back at the interview that wade Robson did on today show when Matt lauer interview Wade Robson and you should look at the interview that he did when he was on the inside edition when wade Robson was messing with his ear that should tell you that he lied both time on the interviews if you don't take my word for it then don't comment about what I say about those two liars ever again

@dagluke

5 жыл бұрын

Watch the film

@a.k.a.theruggedmanchild9685

4 жыл бұрын

@llahmitswr i would rather watch clay dry than watch that moc.

The truth will always come out!

@memelordt1660

5 жыл бұрын

The truth is what you chose to believe

@lt2672

5 жыл бұрын

This isn't the truth. It's a bunch of lies. The FBI and multiple PDs privately investigated him for more than a decade but couldn't find anything on him. All child stars that ever met him have defended him including the two dipshits in the documentary.

@memelordt1660

5 жыл бұрын

@Will S when did he say they 'honeymooned' in Euro Disney in 1988?

@tcochran42

5 жыл бұрын

Andres Caldas, it ain't over til it's over!

@gernm18

5 жыл бұрын

was it a lie that he slept with little boys too?

They expect us to believe wade didn’t understand how bad it was until he had a child? Lied under oath as an adult and still didn’t understand what had happened?

@blubella2

3 жыл бұрын

Yes because thats how trauma works. It doesnt mean that he is telling the truth, but it is absolutely consistent with the experience of traumatic experiences.

@georgia7438

3 жыл бұрын

@@blubella2 I wonder how would you feel if you were falsely accused of such a terrible crime

@Inannarising

2 жыл бұрын

What’s unbelievable about that? That’s actually exactly how it works. Most victims block it from their daily lives or even forget about it all together until memories resurface, or until their perspective changes when they see it through their adult eyes.

@Giannis-zm5no

Жыл бұрын

@@Inannarising the billion dollars sure did help the two of them 😂😂

@SandraMontano-si3uf

Жыл бұрын

@@georgia7438 dumb nut how would you feel if you were a victim of old ugly perverted Micheal Jackson the wacko.?

There is no evidence any of this happened, an every time this man gets asked if these men are wanting money ,he rushed past it, these guys want money an this director does a one sided smear campaign

"Only a stupid and unenlightened society creates the need for celebrities." -Albert d. Xavier

@user-eg4zk5ko3o

3 жыл бұрын

cheers for your part in society ziplineshazam

@ZiplineShazam

3 жыл бұрын

@bola oladapo . . . as we all fade into the oblivion. . .mmmmmm. . .drink it up

@donpercent

2 жыл бұрын

And even more stupid believe in everything they say.

@drakashrakenburgproduction5369

2 жыл бұрын

@@donpercent and even more stupid to believe people that have no evidence and have been caught numerous times lying and changing stories. Shocking right?

@kasturipillay6626

2 жыл бұрын

People always look for someone to worship and praise.

i hate everyone who thinks michael is guilty. like do ur research people!

@RustyCrawford-cc1zy

Жыл бұрын

Do you hate Jesus ? You do realize Michael had to stand before him and give an account why there was a tomato stuck on the end of his p***** and an onion ring wrapped around it

You never see molestation as love. That's Bs. I was molested as a child and always saw it as wrong. All this director's answers are illogical and terrible. And once again the media, is terrible accepting any response with no logical push back

@captaink

5 жыл бұрын

@Marquessa du Bois Great, than our HORRIBLE media needs to do two minutes of factual research to reveal that the basic narrative and timeline are totally wrong!? This documentary has already had soooo many facts discredited. Thank God for the internet!! You don't just listen to anyone say anything emotionally with ZERO proof and no responses on the other side! What's our judicial system for in that case!? This is a money grab... AGAIN. which has been thrown out before due to obvious lies!!

FBI 10 years of investigation nothing and this guy thinks he can tarnish a legend

I would like to see his reaction If he would have to talk face to face to the Jackson Family....would he be brave enough to lie right in to their faces?!

@alexandriajordan7324

4 жыл бұрын

He would immediately get jumped when they see him I bet 😂😂😂

@judypayne5732

2 жыл бұрын

I doubt he would 🤣

@SandraMontano-si3uf

Жыл бұрын

I don't think he's that concerned about that lying degenerate family. They are all a bunch of kooks-

@BeaMode1990

Жыл бұрын

Of course not. He would have gotten skinned alive. Gary Indiana style. 😂😂😂😩😩😩

@rosecoloredtimes

Жыл бұрын

Why would he do that? He was not a fan of Michael’s before this and knew nothing about them. This movie was about Wade and James and their experience-it was not about whether or not he believed them, or what the Jackson family believes their family member . he saw a very necessary need to take this information and do something good with it. Illustrate what sexual abuse is, how it works. And GROOMING and how it works so he could abuse them, and then convince them to testify. And even though Wade has admitted over and over that yea, he lied on the stand, he also showed how powerful the grooming process is, that even decades letter you could be up there defending him, totally believe in what you’re saying, and believing you’re doing the right thing. What he did to them was not bad -it was love. He told them they’d be together forever. Wade even admits that he doesn’t know how to deal with it. Because part of him enjoyed it-it was just two people who really loved eachother and this is how we show it. The fact that you won’t even allow your brain to consider it when you have nothing to prove it except your stubborn refusal is a little sad, honestly .

Has anyone ever suggested to these two young men that they address these allegations while being attached to lie detectors? I would certainly like to see what the result of that would be.

@parkermaciejewski4671

3 жыл бұрын

Certainly! Could’ve done it to MJ too but I’m sure that would’ve caused a TON of controversy innocent or not innocent.

@evanicander2023

3 жыл бұрын

Liedetectors don't work

@donpercent

2 жыл бұрын

@@evanicander2023 If they worked they'd be used even nowadays, but they are not. But that doesnt matter to all those "objective" mj fans... all that matters is that those two alleged "victims" dont want to get on lie detectors! People are so f.... easily manipulated and ret4rded... its beyond imagination.

@evanicander2023

2 жыл бұрын

@@donpercent Michael Jackson is innocent!

@globalcitizenn

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, the estate asked. They refused to take lie detectors.

He said he tried to find any information which would contradict what Wade and James said, and he couldn’t find anything. That’s either a lie or he doesn’t know how to use the Internet.

@gernm18

5 жыл бұрын

Tyrie TV did michael not sleep with little boys? michael was a walking lie.

@tjtyrie256

5 жыл бұрын

@@gernm18 Michael admitted to having sleepovers, this is well documented. So where is the 'lie' in your statement?

@gernm18

5 жыл бұрын

@@tjtyrie256 Even michael's speaking voice was an act and you fell for it. He changed his face and his skin in a disgusting fashion. His face was a lie too. A grown man has zero business sleeping with kids. I bet MJ was abused by his father in a similar way.

@tjtyrie256

5 жыл бұрын

Wrong again. I saw him live and heard him talk to his backing dancers in a much deeper tone and thought then that his on stage persona is more of an act. That’s the same for a lot of artists, and not just in the music business but other forms of artistry and entertainment.

@tjtyrie256

5 жыл бұрын

Anyhoo. You are the one bringing up MJ and little boys, not me. My comment, which you replied to, referred to the director of the ‘documentary’ who claimed he could not find any info which contradicted James or Wades story. It’s a fact there is lots of stuff which contradicts their story. So that in itself casts a huge doubt over his whole documentary for me.

You don't have to prove that they don't get paid. Everybody are gonna take your word for it. How convenient. Let me tell you something, the man who would do this disgusting film, filled with lies, for free, isn't born yet.

@domenicocusumano

5 жыл бұрын

what was in it that was a lie?

@Devik666

5 жыл бұрын

Domenico Cusumano what wasn’t

@simontan5295

5 жыл бұрын

James is 840k in debt and wade is also drowned in debt. All of a sudden they tell lies ummm.... It's also life and death for them too.

The female "host" is Savannah Guthrie who is good friends with Diane Dimond. So you can imagine her bias.

@dianabeurman364

5 жыл бұрын

DIMOND HATES MICHAEL!

@afdhalmalik5835

5 жыл бұрын

Fr tho hypocrisy at its finest..The media was always against Michael ..Diane dimond was a real evil woman.For probably 2 decades she spent her life trying to ruin an innocent mans reputation😔

@hisfinalgirlie

4 жыл бұрын

REGIMENT65 She’s a yellow journalist; someone who lies a story into the media for the sake of their own personal gain of money.

Even in death, they will not leave this man alone.

@freshstartification

5 жыл бұрын

because the damage he caused is still alive

@patstutelberg85

5 жыл бұрын

Pedos aren't men. They are sick monsters

@Uare2MuchRetarded

5 жыл бұрын

@@freshstartification Well said.

Cannot believe all these news sources are doing this without doing any research first!!!!

@asantewaakissi2650

5 жыл бұрын

Jill Morgan Jussie Smollett

If HBO loses their court with the Jackson estate, theyll come after Dan Reed for their money😂😂😂😂

@coffeewithcarline9171

5 жыл бұрын

LEE SOLID 😭😭😭😂😂😂😂right

@tamarajay7676

5 жыл бұрын

HBO better freaking lose!

@mctv7416

5 жыл бұрын

LEE SOLID im sure they have insurance, not accurately describe Michael’s genitals insurance (which doesn’t exist) 🤣

@workoutfanatic7873

5 жыл бұрын

actually HBO is the one most liable, they are the distributor. And the lawsuit is on a contract between Jackson and HBO. Any tort claims would be based on the contract. Reed lacks privity, and he's got not liability for defamation.

@tamarajay7676

5 жыл бұрын

@@workoutfanatic7873 Did the jacksons have a contract with Oprah as well? Because of the interview she did with MJ. Can she be liable in anyway?

Ok, if everything they said about Michael Jackson was true, why are they making a documentary about all of this, like, 10 years after Michael's death. If you were going to make this documentary, you should have done it while Michael Jackson was still alive, not 10 years after his death. It just makes it look like they're trying to tarnish Michael's legacy at this point, and that they're just trying to get a big cash grab from this, which is totally selfish. Also, why does the director in this video look like a serial killer?

@zainrazvi8044

5 жыл бұрын

@Aqeel Asif So true

@arbitrarylib

5 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@__THRILLERAUDIO_

4 жыл бұрын

Because they wait till they're dead to give out details so the other person couldn't give the other side to the story. If Michael was still alive then this documentary wouldn't exist cause he would have already had a side to this case and nobody would believe the "Victims".

When is it on actually?

MJ is innocent! #squareonemj #lovingneverland

@donpercent

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah a few songs about being a victim, ability to present himself as an "angel", charity and everything totally make him innocent. As if all of this couldnt be just a smoke screen...

@Finebyme123

2 жыл бұрын

No he’s not

"I couldn't find anything to contradict their story" lmao I have seen like 10+ contradictions within 5 minutes that randos on the internet have thrown out on these videos about Finding Neverland. Also, I feel like there should naturally be some contradictions since it was so long ago and who remembers everything from 30 years ago.

@pointsbeingmade7996

4 жыл бұрын

Sergei Ratcheoff well said.

@jjoycetgutierez9994

4 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/dYyDyNxqic69laQ.html

He allowed a 30 second segment of mj defence at the end of the first half. Tbh I couldn’t take the film seriously due to how one sided it was. I also don’t think the director did any fact checking as I’ve seen loads of facts in the film be discounted. He’s taken the whole thing on face value.

@zuzanazuscinova5209

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. One would think they'd at least get the timelines right.

As an adult I never really hated anyone, but now I started to feel the inner hatred for HBO and this disturbing man Dan Reed. The media were cruel enough to Jackson when he was alive, and now we are not getting any better when he is not even here to defend himself. Nothing changes our love for Jackson, he is an angel and forever will be.

@Nuggetsin4

Жыл бұрын

Jackson was almost certainly a homosexual pedophile

Okay, him saying he did his research to contradict their story and didn't find any is straight up bull. If he really did GOOD research he would have known that the case of '93 had nothing to do with actual sexual abuse, it was just a revenge 'move' by the dad to get his money. He didn't even want to go through a criminal lawsuit to get michael to jail. (If that was my kid, I would try everything to get him in to jail.) He didn't care about that, so he went for the civil one only. The boy (accuser) even admitted he would never touch any kid. Second of all, the 2003 - 2005 case was the exact same thing. A family that had history of scamming celebrities for their money, did it with michael, it was proven and so he was innocent. If he knew this, he might have had thought twice about wade en rob's allegations. Just wanna put that out there.

@brownskin.babeee

2 жыл бұрын

beautifully typed 😊 shows you have done a lot of research 👍🏽👍🏽

How can he say that when both of them were involved in a massive trial. What a load of lies.

@TucoBenedicto

5 жыл бұрын

???

@gailcusden3607

5 жыл бұрын

@@TucoBenedicto he said their stories have never been heard before. They been heard in an 18 month trial so he just completely talking nonsense. That is why this is so wrong on so many levels.

Seems like a lot of people forget what 'Stockholm Syndrome' is?

@bernicegoldham1509

5 жыл бұрын

Jon lee hit the nail on the head. That comment should be pinned.

@DirectorHMAN

5 жыл бұрын

Which only happens after months and years of abuse, I swear these clowns spent a week round his?

@NishantMehrotra

5 жыл бұрын

Seems like people want evidence

@Lafundah1

5 жыл бұрын

They just don't know what it is. I believe some people are not educated as to the victim-abuser relationship of a pedophile and a child.

@yingyang2838

5 жыл бұрын

Seems like a lot of people forget what ‘extortion’ is

Give them all polygraphs! Then I will know who's lying!

At first, Safechuck claims he realized he was abused after Robson went on TV talking about his abuse allegations in 2013 and that being married and fatherhood changed his perspective. Familiar right? In Safechuck’s court documents, he says he never fully realized until after hearing Robson but then states that he told his mother in 2005, when they were allegedly being contacted to testify for the trial, that Jackson was a bad man and some things happened. Why wouldn’t they go to the prosecution and testify against Jackson if that’s the case? The prosecution was actively looking for as many “victims” as they can at that time. Now, Dan Reed says that Safechuck confided to his mother about the abuse in 2009. His mother also stated that she danced when she heard that Jackson died in 2009. So when did Safechuck really “realize” the abuse and told his mother about it? I know for certain that you won’t be able to confuse the years 2005, 2009 and 2013 especially when it comes to events related to Michael Jackson’s trial(2005) and death(2009) and seeing the man who inspired your lawsuit on TV(2013). That is also considering that, at those times, he’s already an adult.

@ladyluttenburg037

5 жыл бұрын

Tarana Burke of the metoo movement says to start in the premise that the accuser is telling that truth. So it should follow that you should research about both the accused and the accuser before condemning any of them. But nowadays, people are quick to believe the accusers and condemn the accused.

@robertnicholls9917

5 жыл бұрын

@@ladyluttenburg037 We've passed that threshold. There was an extensive investigation and a case. The courts said he was innocent after hearing all the evidence. The transcript is a public document.

Wish I could attach pictures in KZread to expose all his lies.

@roseburton3275

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah I wish you could too. Michael is DEAD? I think it's wrong to ruin his legacy, by digging up issues after he is not hear to defend himself! RIP KING OF POP!

@candyjohnson3302

5 жыл бұрын

You have pictures of MJ abusing children? Abusers are very careful to keep their misdeeds private.

@ramonabito3644

5 жыл бұрын

@Talksense You forgot to mention that Jordie admitted his dad made him lie and that 22-23million was for the civil lawsuit. They signed papers but as far as I know in those papers Jackson never admitted he molested him. 🤷

@AAF_JRT

5 жыл бұрын

@Talksense the *civil* settlement said no where that the Chandlers could not *continue* with the ongoing *criminal* investigation. Not to mention the extortion phone conversation prior to the charges. If you're child was molested, would you stop after getting money or after you had the man behind bars for the rest of his life? Going off tabloid headlines and not looking into information freely given is what's wrong with the world.

@AAF_JRT

5 жыл бұрын

@Talksense LMFAO! You're blind :D Have a good life blissfully.

This is messed on so many levels 😢😭💔

The mothers who keep smiling and talking fondly about memories of someone that according to their sons molested them for years. I would have thought their mothers would not now be smiling and saying such lovely things about someone that did that. What BS

@MrJondinham

5 жыл бұрын

@Marquessa du Bois well we know it's all a lie now anyway and their mothers seemed like they may have instigated the whole thing. But I guess what can they know how to act like. Should we smile? Should we look angry, sad? Of course they wouldn't know as it never happened.

@ceceliataylor9054

5 жыл бұрын

I agree the parents came across very starstruck in the doc. And they should have known better. But for me there's a difference in being too trusting knowingly offering your kids up to an abuser. And let's not forget who was really to blame.

@timmy7596

5 жыл бұрын

@@MrJondinham Documentary is debunked so the Dan Reed. #liar

@MrJondinham

5 жыл бұрын

@Marquessa du Bois thats exactly what I have done is faced facts. What facts do you have to prove he molested children? Do you even have one fact?

@culkingsed

5 жыл бұрын

@Marquessa du Bois MJ's music sales are up 10% which shows the documentary actually helped more than it hurt. The lies have been exposed, and people are searching for the truth. Michael Jackson's legacy will never be tarnished. You can believe liars who contradict their stories if you want, but others prefer to believe facts and evidence.

Safechuck told his mother in 2005 that Michael was a baf guy according to their shitfilm but now Dan reed said it was in 2009? Then Safechuck realized the abuse in 2013? What mind game is this 😂😂😂

@IrishScribbler

4 жыл бұрын

It’s a very poorly constructed mockumentary featuring a director with delusions of grandeur and two of the most wooden actors I’ve ever seen on screen.

There is no evidence he did anything wrong

@AdrianSLorio

5 жыл бұрын

@@captinbeyond you are writing gossip from tabloids. There is no evidence of anything you said. I deal with facts, evidence and logic.

@AdrianSLorio

5 жыл бұрын

@@shantolion1576 the film features no evidence or facts. It's a one sided biased propaganda piece.

@jt9096

5 жыл бұрын

@@shantolion1576 FBI found him innocent so did the courts kzread.info/dash/bejne/fI2F0MVtipSzj8Y.html

@AmeliaFDG

5 жыл бұрын

@@captinbeyond Why did the boy's parents accept the money, rather than see someone that "molested" their child rotting behind bars? Why were they happy to let him walk free and abuse other children? Look up the facts and form an educated opinion, rather than just sit there regurgitating biased media propaganda.

@captinbeyond

5 жыл бұрын

@@AmeliaFDG educated opinion? look at what happened when a parent DID press charges= he gets off because of his name and money. There are enough idiots out there that prevents you from getting a jury of 12 people who can be objective.Just look at the OJ trial. If you were really educated you'd ask why did he pay the money--not just chump change,but big money---millions--- to get the story to go away? And it was not just one kid. That 's the real story is there were not just one or two boys that claimed he abused,there were many of them. Most of what they claim Jackson admits to doing. You have to be a total fruit cake to think jackson was not a pedo.

Why did he approach the 2 alleged victims? If they said Michael didn't touch them before. Why would you even approach them? I know they made a offer that couldn't be refused. #Danthedevil

Notice how he said "if people believed the claim", and not "if people believed the truth". You know he's spitting bull

Also something interesting is Dan Reed's connection to HBO, Harvey Weinstein, channel 4, and AEG...seen in a video called Leaving Neverland - truth behind the lies. Is this a coincidence? He also referred to himself as a "Gun for hire".

A real Voldemort

Love all of these comments from everyone who has NOT seen the documentary. Watch it first, then comment. Need to keep an open mind. MJ was an incredible talent but the fascination with young boys was always strange.

@tulayamalavenapi4028

5 жыл бұрын

Do you like to eat food you know you hate? What a waste of energy. People are like flies going after the filth and sores. The Jacksons won't watch it, and MJ would not, so why waste time degrading your consciousness? This Godless insinuation is pure evil. A godless man like Dam Greed is invariably greedy, angry and fraudulent. Such a man can earn his livelihood by any means, black or white. 😈👺

@BbGun-lw5vi

5 жыл бұрын

swati sparkle I felt like you, why watch obvious lies. But my boyfriend insisted we watch so we counter the claims. Well, I’ve changed my mind. I understand now why so many people have also gone from believing Michael to believing Wade and James. I’m horrified by what Michael did.

@nanaamma3642

5 жыл бұрын

No charges and no evidence so they can go kick rocks,

@veryhandsome268

5 жыл бұрын

@@BbGun-lw5vi its totally based on the words of these accusers who know they cant be challenged on what they are saying as that person is dead, how do you counter claims when the whole premise of this documentary is that you are bombarded with just one side of the story, its not up to us to draw our own conclusions without having the accused being able to defend himself, these guys have done it purely for monetary reasons, now if they had the fbi or judges or whoever was involved in the case when he was found innocent sitting in front of these guys while making their accusations i would be a lot more open minded to where they were trying to go with the documentary.

@arbitrarylib

5 жыл бұрын

i wouldn't call that trash a documentary

Did the director ask them if they would be willing take "lie detector" tests to further determine if either was telling the truth? The accusers do not need to get paid for the documentary as I am sure they are betting the documentary will aid in their case..How can we know they are telling the truth? How can we ever know?

omg! he looks so creepy....

@captinbeyond

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah,Michael look so sane and normal right? Being able to remove your nose is normal?

@jesussquad2813

5 жыл бұрын

mark price he was not able to remove his nose 😒.That was a rumor floating around by the tabloids.Those pictures are photoshop

@bestofjoy

5 жыл бұрын

@@captinbeyond what a stupid comment.

@captinbeyond

5 жыл бұрын

@@jesussquad2813 that information came from his plastic surgeons not the tabloids

@jesussquad2813

5 жыл бұрын

mark price I think it did.

History proved you should never trust people with this kind of mustache line

@chille-ql4ry

5 жыл бұрын

Well Jean Reno is a pretty good actor

@smilelikeUmeanit90

4 жыл бұрын

Dude, I don't trust guy with a make-up, lipstick eyeliner and so on... A man with plastic surgeries.

@mallakchennawi4222

4 жыл бұрын

Magda 13 ummm so michaels a pedo coz he wore makeup, i’m glad u did ur research

You say the documentary is not about Michael Jackson but you put some disturbing images of Michael Jackson in the documentary

He has an evil creepy look about him.

@giannacrotty8045

5 жыл бұрын

What kind of point is that? Why does it make him evil to make a documentary about something he believes in. Don't attack someone's looks because you don't agree with him. That is the argument of a child and shameful!

@trumpprez7252

5 жыл бұрын

@@giannacrotty8045 I am entitled to my opinion

@giannacrotty8045

5 жыл бұрын

anita walsh so am I. You have an evil creepy way about you. Therefore, everything you do and say is a reflection of my so called observation of your evilness.

@trumpprez7252

5 жыл бұрын

@@giannacrotty8045You dont know me. I will take the high road an not respond to you any further. bye

@giannacrotty8045

5 жыл бұрын

anita walsh do you know this man? The high road is the road of morality, not the one of cowardess that you have taken because I’ve pointed out your hypocrisy. I implore you to take a good hard look at yourself before you tarnish the world with your selfishness. Good luck.

He said what Wade and Jimmy claimed is collaborated with stories 1993 and 2003/4 well surely if their gonna lie they would just have to follow the same previous stories so of course it sounds believable. Everyone has a choice and mine isn't to believe it .

THIS will be the last film or documentary this money hungry fraud will ever make.

@sussh9635

5 жыл бұрын

Are you talking about Dan GREED? 🤑

@ceceliataylor9054

5 жыл бұрын

@GaelicTroubador And they will!

What a crock. As disturbing as some of the claims are, this crap didn’t change my mind at all. It’s a very well crafted documentary that plays up the emotional angle, since they can’t go forward with the court. I’m sure they are hoping that public outrage might help them change their mind. However, the fact remains that Michael was never convicted of any crime against children at all. They say that they did this to help children to come forward, however based on other families who came forward with Similar allegations , only to be disproved and these two “victims” and their ever changing stories is going to make it harder to convince real victims (if there are any) to come forward. Get your facts straight before you make accusations you can’t prove.

I was sexually abused as a child so I believe them. I didn’t say anything when I was asked because my life was threatened so I could understand why they didn’t testify against him. They didn’t think it was bad until now

He should’ve linked up with Cory Feldman if he wanted a documentary to raise awareness on the issue. Heard some of those guys are still around working👀

Unless you were there nobody knows what happened

@dianakulicoff9626

5 жыл бұрын

Donald Marshall well a lot of people been there and said nothing happened

@morten1975dk

5 жыл бұрын

And thats why It also comes down to what people believe. Im 50/50 on the whole thing myself.

@tulayamalavenapi4028

5 жыл бұрын

Unless you were on the moon, how do you know men landed there. That's idiotic logic. Alot of people agree that to stage a moon landing was just a matter of Hollywood hype. Do maybe our courts of law that spent over 4 months drilling the case....are just another circus? Why do people waste time looking for garbage? Look at the acts of benevolence towards children that Michael Jackson sacrificed not only his hard-earned money, but his time and energy and very life for. His deeds of good far outweigh the common low class degenerate mind of a child abuser. People who are blind & deaf and too lazy to understand the message, sit on the couch of eating all the garbage the lame stream media feeds them. They are eager and envious enough to accept the lies, without eyes to see who is behind the insinuations, and without ears to hear the music and message of Michael Jackson. 😈👺👹🤢 Dam Greed.... Shame

@giannacrotty8045

5 жыл бұрын

Especially the jackson family, who blindly defend micheal for their own financial gain!

@ernestovalencia8227

5 жыл бұрын

Morten Christensen 70 30 Michael did yea one of the accusers has a suspicious past but the way he had pet names and calls these boys in the movie is bone chilling

I had no idea Boy George did this documentary

@waderobsonisaliar3415

5 жыл бұрын

Don't insult boy George 😂

well, he did a bad job 'looking for' evidence to make it balance

According to the comments, "Believe Women" but "Don't Believe Men"?

@valdezaa6138

5 жыл бұрын

No believe facts not propaganda

@brendanmadden6312

5 жыл бұрын

Akosua Ntimwaa it's a he said, he said situation, so we should believe no one

@sandravd8841

5 жыл бұрын

If it was two women, they wouldn't believe them either. They can't accept that their beloved MJ may have been a pedophile. They wouldn't if they had seen it with their own eyes.

@valdezaa6138

5 жыл бұрын

@@sandravd8841 The Fbi investigated him for 10 years and found nothing if there was any type of evidence that linked him to being a pedophile don't you think they would have reported it. It is not about his fans being in denial that he could have been a pedophile but the fact that he was investigated and no evidence could prove that he was a guilty of any type of behavior and he is dead and people are trying to tarnish his legacy is why his fans don't believe these two people

@sandravd8841

5 жыл бұрын

@@valdezaa6138 Do you think someone of his status and wealth wouldn't be cautious enough to not to leave trails? He would have had people "cleaning" after him, you can be sure of that. The fact that he slept with children who weren't his own is concerning enough. How would you explain that his best "child friends" are all white, male and cute? If he truly loved children he would've loved all children.

This guy's head is a whole egg😂😂

He looks like the guy from the fantastic 4 lol

"Direct testimony".... OMG! So I tell Dan Reed that I feel that I came from outer space. Legit material for "documentary".

How many people in the comments sections actually watch the documentary?

@Acekorv

5 жыл бұрын

Bernice Goldham not many by the look of it.. I went into it as a skeptic, but the way they are describing it, and how they describe it in different ways but still tell a similar story. I find it hard to believe that they are lying if so they are doing an insanely good job at convincing the audience ( we are talking oscarwinning acting if that was the case) .

@haad2246

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@godot9407

5 жыл бұрын

Acekorv CONVINCING?? It was blatant lying. The mother was laughing and smiling the whole time. The fbi had been investigating Michael Jackson for 10 years. I’m not even a mj fan and I can see that he’s being set up and taken advantage of. Ever since the first accusations have come out it was always for money. You think the fans who haven’t watched the documentary are being ignorant? You’re the ones that are being misled. Just because you’ve watched one documentary. The two kids have been trying to gain profit off of Michael Jackson for years

@jsmithmultimediatech

5 жыл бұрын

Funny how Wade had a relationship with Brandi (MJ's niece), MJ introducing them previously, whilst he was supposedly being abused, he had an affair with Britney Spears as well when he was seeing Brandi.

@FireOccator

5 жыл бұрын

@@godot9407 The 10 years investigation is misleading. He was mostly investigated because of threats against him.

And the parents should take blame letting grown men have sleepovers with your kid that's even more sick

@johnphilipashton

5 жыл бұрын

Vampires can only enter if you invite them in

@Lafundah1

5 жыл бұрын

Ok. But, let's not shift the focus away from the real abuser. Have you noticed how many people think Michael was just a child-like man, innocent? There is a possibility that these parents were just too ignorant an uneducated about Pedophilia. Remember....back then there was no internet and information was not so readily available. We are more informed today than anyone back in the pre-internet era. Do I believe all the parents were naive? No. I think at least one knew exactly what dangers they were putting their child in the care of MJ.

@Alphacentauri819

5 жыл бұрын

2 Tears In A Bucket so naive ignorant parents are worse than calculated predatory behavior towards a child? One is premeditated..the other unaware. If I plan to hit someone with my car...it’s a bit worse than someone pulling out in front of me and me hitting them, because I didn’t see it coming.. Should the parents have been more aware...yes...but that doesn’t make them more sick than the pedophile. Only if there was an exchange where they offered up their children knowingly..would it be on the same level.

@2tearsinabucket521

5 жыл бұрын

Mêlée Placid we all knew Michael was weird around kids..agreed? So for someone to send their own flesh and blood into that situation and let them stay at a grown mans house who clearly isn't quite right makes you kind of worse in my eyes yes. He would never have had the opportunity without the parents consent. They practically offered up their kids because they thought they would get looked after or fame. I would never do that to any child let alone my own. Just my opinion though and it's not to stick up for MJ at all.

@a.k.a.theruggedmanchild9685

4 жыл бұрын

@@gernm18 do you have an excuse for defending the 2 fleece artists that shares a brain

This fools are so desperate to bring this wonderful human M.J legacy down, but i have bad new for them we the people will forever love M.J

Hey, how does it feel to lie about a good man? All for money...

Why are people so flabbergasted at the thought that he might be a pedo? He was just about everything else. His talent at music doesn't make immune to culpability.

@TucoBenedicto

5 жыл бұрын

It's basically a mass Stockholm syndrome.

@taylortlat2214

5 жыл бұрын

It’s not that, why is the media still covering this when he died? If he didn’t do it, if he did do it-what’s the point in making a documentary now? How is this even proving he did do it? There’s no point to this documentary. That’s the problem. They try to advertise it to helping other survivors yet they never bring up how other survivors can seek help or move on.

@aeric4304

5 жыл бұрын

Taylor Tinai the only reason I believe that the documentary exists isn't because it's supposed to expose Michael, WHICH didn't work, at least not completely, I think its purpose is to sway public opinion into believing those two idiots seeking a small fortune of about 1 billion dollars but with today's legal system there's no way they're going to win

This is bull, I think theyre just upset cz Michael made new child friends and they were replaced

This is all so disgusting. Let the man rest. Jeeeez

Dan reed should be jailed.

These allegations and film (not documentary) have arisen at a time when these men have filed a lawsuit for financial gain against Michael Jackson's Estate after his death when he cannot defend themselves. Notice no-one is backing them up. Dan Reed claims this is a documentary yet sees no need to give a voice to all of the respected adults that grew up around Michael Jackson and defend his innocence. Reed is not a professional he is a man seeking attention through sensationalizing the life of a man who achieved far more than he could ever hope to.

@Finebyme123

2 жыл бұрын

Stop being brainwashed.

Dan Reed says it is not for money can we see the receipts please as I dont believe this for one minute!

@88feji

5 жыл бұрын

Well its just another one of the many MANY empty claims made by these 3 people making this so-called "documentary" ... They have no need to back up anything they say because they are targeting millions of gullible viewers who will not do any further research other than gulp up all their stories uncritically....

@waderobsonisaliar3415

5 жыл бұрын

2.20 he says " it is about money "

I understand a kid lying but a grown man lying under oath....nah son Edit: I ain’t gonnna lie y’all after watching the documentary I change my mind I believe them

@cheekyboy5000

5 жыл бұрын

a 22 year old young man who was still in love with his idol, the paedophile who had groomed him from the age of 7, lying under oath, because he was still under his spell.

@ceceliataylor9054

5 жыл бұрын

You obviously don't understand how trauma affects victims. Watch the doc. Educate yourself.

@paradoxbella75

5 жыл бұрын

@@ceceliataylor9054 Some of us do understand trauma and don't have to educate ourselves. These men are lying and will be proved to be liars soon enough!!

@michaelslittleangel7818

5 жыл бұрын

Exactly. He lied several times I can't even count. He is a walking contradictory than he failed to mention he was in a relationship with mjs niece he is a whole mess

@theochasid8996

5 жыл бұрын

Does any man want to say I was r4ped as a kid? Do you know how hard that is to admit?

no evidence. hbo or this guy should be sued disrespectful asf. i cancelled my hbo the second it ended

He doesn’t have to tell the reporter when the two men were paid, because that would be a breach in the confidentiality of the agreement. Well-played. Stupid question

Dr Evil isn't such a smart cookie head when it comes to objective truth is he? 😂

@pointsbeingmade7996

4 жыл бұрын

VOLightPortal hahaha

Money and fame will always drive people to do anything even to speak against the dead when they know that the dead is defenseless . And why do we believe their story now? Is it because they sound convincing? Have we thought about the motive behind their stories and those who are pushing them to advance this cause? I prefer to stand by someone who has worked so hard to build a legacy to someone who just stands up in a day and wants to take advantage of others just to reach his goal.

Shameful. To denigrate a man's character against someone who cannot defend himself.

This Director is Disgusting and Cold! MJ May you Rest In Peace

This guy reminds me of Freddy Kruger

@clairebunt5887

5 жыл бұрын

No running in the hallway Nancy 😂😂

@stringer-ik1pc

5 жыл бұрын

Imagine what jacko looked like without his wig on.?? That white face. Tattooed on lipstick eyeliner and the nose falling off. 😃😃😃

@Kruegerisgod

5 жыл бұрын

claire bunt 😂😂😂😂😂

@MajikBoxx

5 жыл бұрын

Paula Nowaczyk 100%

@MajikBoxx

5 жыл бұрын

@@stringer-ik1pc Not as outlandish as trying to imagine a troll like you *not* being a worthless, unaccomplished loser! Jackson had a disease called vitiligo (which can happen to anyone with that gene issue). People go through tough times, rich or poor, remember that. He was rich, talented and though immature and naive; cared about people including a handful who turned out to be greedy, treacherous grifter scum after first using his time, generosity and his name to further their own success, schemes and/or limited talents - the type you clearly admire.

Yeah okay so why didn't Kevin Spacey, Weinstein and Jimmy Savel get a big trial and the same amount of media coverage and scrutiny, and they were 100 % guilty.

As a victim of molestation myself, I believe the victims. Jackson groomed the children in ways that are typical of predators. And don't forget , Michael on camera said that sharing your bed with a child is the most loving thing you can do. How sick is that?

@Acekorv

5 жыл бұрын

Valerie S I agree, by the looks of the comment section he groomed a whole generation.

@Uare2MuchRetarded

5 жыл бұрын

@@Acekorv Well said. It's gonna take some time for people to realize the ugly truth about their biggest idol.

@vs52217

5 жыл бұрын

@Steven Rivers Thank you.

@applejam8513

Жыл бұрын

Please do more research, there is SO much evidence that he is innocent, you’re just watching a single documentary with zero evidence and convinced he is guilty. At least listen to the rebuttals.

@vs52217

Жыл бұрын

@@applejam8513 I have, and you are wrong.

Even though the Jackson family doesn’t need any more money, I hope they win this case. Whether Michael did it or not, he is not alive to defend himself.

@jsmithmultimediatech

5 жыл бұрын

Funny how they missed out completely (here at least) Wade had a relationship when MJ introduced Wade to Brandi his niece.

MJ didnt give a doggone about Wade lmao

@mistyh9403

5 жыл бұрын

He groomed Wade from 5 years old plus his family then disregarded him after he got too old then moved onto another young boy. Plenty of video evidence!!

@georgia7438

3 жыл бұрын

@@mistyh9403 plenty of video evidence? Are you ok in the head?

@globalcitizenn

2 жыл бұрын

@@georgia7438 He only met Wade for a moment when he was 5. How the heck did he “groom” him? Wade & his mom sent many letters & tapes but he never responded. Y’all are truly insane. She had to desperately track him down two years later like a psycho fan. Even then they went back to Australia for two years. Wade only moved to America when he was 9 & MJ didn’t spend much time with him at all. Wade has been bitter about this fact ever since & jealous of ppl like Macaulay & Brett who MJ was actually close to.

@startracker5895

2 жыл бұрын

@@mistyh9403 no there isn’t.

Wade didn't come forward cuz he stated and also swore by oath that Michael never did anything to him!

@elanacarter1787

5 жыл бұрын

Wait, are you telling me no one has every lied under oath before?

@christopherwilliams8104

5 жыл бұрын

@@elanacarter1787 no i didn't say that! I was saying he didn't come forward way before now because he always stated for years Michael did nothing to him! obviously people can lie! To bad the guy is dead and can't defend himself!

@elanacarter1787

5 жыл бұрын

Chris Williams Did you know that you cant prosecute someone for lying under oath if they are a sexual abuse survivor. There’s a reason for that.

@christopherwilliams8104

5 жыл бұрын

@@elanacarter1787 I know one thing you can't punish a dead man! But you can change your story an sue for millions!

@a.k.a.theruggedmanchild9685

4 жыл бұрын

that's because Wade is a neanderthal!

I get the feeling Wade was that kid that always wanted more more and Michael maybe rejected him, and he’s never grown out of that rejection

@RosDC

5 жыл бұрын

Yep...i think he wanted to get with MJ sexually. I bet MJ pulled back from sexual advances from the mothers and from Wade!

tbf I wonder if I would take the risk and watch it 2mrrow?

@giannamccord

4 жыл бұрын

MrsLukeArnold u better be careful cause their goal is to manipulate u

So he says the boys didnt make money from the movie yet they were both on oprah

Dan Reed this is about money. I can see it in your evil eyes.

@ceceliataylor9054

5 жыл бұрын

I see it on the Jackson family members faces. And they should be worried!

@tulayamalavenapi4028

5 жыл бұрын

A godless man is invariably greedy, angry and fraudulent. Such a man can earn his livelihood by any means, black or white. 😈👺 Dam Greed

@giannacrotty8045

5 жыл бұрын

Watch the documentary you coward .

@backfromthedeadproductions7227

5 жыл бұрын

ObiWan MaBoaby A foolish man thinks they know everything.

MJ was gifted and brought joy to the world he had a dark childhood its hard for pepole to except artists as simple human beings with issues i hope that era has ended.

Even jacksons old friend Barbara Streisand has just said she believes the accusations against him.

@Annah-mm4nz

5 жыл бұрын

On the flip side - Even Jackson's old friend Diana Ross has DEFENDED him and trusts in him - So what's your point? Some believe he is innocent, some don't, so what? People's opinions do not make a person innocent or guilty.

@Annah-mm4nz

5 жыл бұрын

stringer 2295 I’m using my real name. Unlike you. You are the anonymous one 🙄

If you know it's a lie Then you will swear it If you give it with guilt Then you will bear it If it's taking a chance Then you will dare it You do anything for money Anything Anything Anything for money Would lie for you Would die for you Even sell my soul to the devil #Michaeljacksonisinnocent

There was one kid that denied anything ever happened

If it’s not about Michael Jackson then why is it called leaving neverland and why is there videos and pictures of Michael in the documentary

"The victim sees it as a good thing, doesn't see it as an abuse" What??? So when you are abused by someone you admire, it doesn't feel bad? This is sick! How many children are abused by their parents (the people they admire and love the most), and their lives are ruined from the moment the abuse starts? This is insulting. I think Oprah said something similar on her interview with Wade and James. It's disgusting. I never heard any victim of sexual abuse saying it felt good or that didn't fell as abuse. It does feel as an abuse!! It's unconfortable, it's intimidating, it's disturbing! A child is not prepared to that kind of stuf! Jesus christ, I'm done hearing this. It makes me sick.

@Drivenaway89

5 жыл бұрын

Carlos Silva watch the documentary and see what he’s talking about....it goes very much into detail

@Drivenaway89

5 жыл бұрын

Carlos Silva and I was abused by my father for years and still feel like I love him even though deep down I hate him. It’s not simple, feeling and experiences like this are complex.

@AlternativaRealidade

5 жыл бұрын

@@Drivenaway89 I already watched the documentary and it is really hard for me to believe their story. When I knew there's a lawsuit asking for a 1,5 bilion dollars, I saw where does this documentary comes from. In my opinion this movie (I refuse to call it documentary because it is basically 4 hour of interview and zero proof) is an insult to those who really were victims of sexual abuse. It even uses them as "emotional vessel" as we can clearly see in the Oprah "After Neveland Special". She had more that 100 victims of sexual abuse in the audience. Of course people at home would feel compation for them and Wade and James. It really made me sick.

I miss Michael Jackson

what did the lady at the beach say to michael jackson? "HEY!!! GET OUT OF MY SON(SUN)

Please, please let this man Rest In Peace. The way he was treated when he was alive was disgusting, and the way he’s being treated after he’s dead is even worse. Leave this man alone

" This is not about Michael Jackson " 😂😂😂 You should be ashamed .

@Kudown

2 жыл бұрын

That was very well said wtf do you mean.

@avasiljander8962

9 ай бұрын

​@@Kudownwdym mean 😂 the entire movie was made so they could sue the jackson companies again 😂

No one ever seems to be optimistic, people are so in love with the celebrity....he can't do no wrong. Despite the fact that there are some factual stuff that makes the man a child molester. No one was in MJ's room...not even his family...brothers...sisters....so who are we go judge. Perhaps he didn't abuse any kids....maybe he did. We will never know the truth.....

Please watch the documentary before commenting about the documentary y'all

@chrissiem4

5 жыл бұрын

I did. Now it is your turn to do a research on Robson and Safechuck. Start with interviews with Brandi Jackson.

@eidhdbkdhbfhffh7107

4 жыл бұрын

Nea Spirea I mean the documentary is a lie

Why are they ignoring the fact that abuse victims tend to abuse others? Has anyone checked on their kids? That's what should be getting discussed.