Just stopping by to remind everyone that Hall effect sensors are not new technology. They were used for the analog sticks for the SEGA Saturn in 1996 and the Dreamcast in 1999. Manufacturers don't use them today because they would rather your controller wear out so you have to buy a new one.

@AzariusR

Жыл бұрын

Jeeze, I wish SEGA still does hardware today aw.

@HonorableMrRager

Жыл бұрын

Dreamcast was wonderful

@Jason-ir5ig

Жыл бұрын

@@ShockingPikachu I think I heard that the N64 used an optical sensor, which I guess would make it more comparable to a mouse

@Jihadbearzwithgunz

Жыл бұрын

Designed obsolescence. The real cancer of the gaming industry

@leonardomatheus1888

Жыл бұрын

@@Jihadbearzwithgunz of the industry in general

The one problem is that, currently, most companies have joystick drift to their favor since their customers either buy replacement parts or flat out buy a new controler. The only way I see to fix this is if a 3rd party company can successfully compete in the market using these sensors.

@GamerBoy870

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I bought 2 powerA controllers for my switch and Xbox and they work great thier wired so no drift.

@Metallica4Life1995

Жыл бұрын

@@GamerBoy870 Controllers being wired has no effect on whether they will drift or not, it's the hardware inside the gimbal itself that dictates that. PowerA still uses a regular potentiometer that is prone to drifting so at some point or another, your controller will start drifting too. The only solution to drift is implementing Hall Effect Sensors or a deadzone (Not really a fix tbh)

@dannyboy643ify

Жыл бұрын

@@Metallica4Life1995 i think replacing the potentiometer works too but i usually replace everything

@nicoful86

Жыл бұрын

@@Metallica4Life1995 I think this guy just skipped the video and wanted to plug powerA for some reason

@dannyboy643ify

Жыл бұрын

@@nicoful86 i’ve seen lots of broken power a controllers lol

If I know what they are doing with the whole "Planned obsolescence" thing then I know they won't actually implement these features on newer controllers or designs, and will continue to create unnecessary E-Waste, even though these Hall effect sensors are better in literally every way.

@LEXXIUS

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget there are no original (good) replacement parts. Back in the day I tried to fix my Xbox 360 controller and the replacement stick couldn't do a smooth circle anymore, only a square with rounded corners.

@shepshepson

Жыл бұрын

@@LEXXIUS yeah I have 3 Xbox original controllers which have stick drift but are perfectly fine otherwise, but it makes them completely unusable because I do not have any soldering skills, or equipment to fix them, When I used to play PS3 a long time ago, stick drift was never a problem for me and to me it just feels like they purposely switched to carbon based potentiometers in the PS4 and PS5 controllers just to make more people buy a lot of them more often.

@BurritoKingdom

Жыл бұрын

@@shepshepson nope. The PS3 also used carbon-based potentiometers. Sony and every other console manufacturer switched to Alps potentiometers since they thought the magnets may interfere with the wireless signal.

@shepshepson

Жыл бұрын

@@BurritoKingdom really? Man that stinks, because I opened up my own ps3 controller to find some hall effect sensors in them

@nathanmead140

Жыл бұрын

@@BurritoKingdom ps1, ps2 and sixaxis controllers use them but dualshock 3's don't.

As an FPV hobbyist, THANK YOU for making a video (albeit a short one) about hall gimbals. There is literally no downside in using these over potentiometers besides the slight increase in complexity and tiny increase in price. It's so worth the added consistency and longevity and it baffles me that potentiometers are still the norm in expensive video game controllers.

@placebomessiah

Жыл бұрын

one downside is that someone could wirelessly interfere with a hall effect transducer from a distance

@OhSoTiredMan

Жыл бұрын

@@placebomessiah Sounds more like a inconvenience than a downside.

@jackwoodhead

Жыл бұрын

@@placebomessiah If someone wanted to interfere with your input, I imagine it would be more practical to jam the radio signal. And magnets are not very effective over long distances so it would it would probably have to be a pretty powerful magnet.

@placebomessiah

Жыл бұрын

@@jackwoodhead nah just a low frequency oscillating field within a few feet is enough to drift a precision hall sensor. Jamming bluetooth is harder

@alifelessrock48

Жыл бұрын

If possible, itd be cool if higher end controllers that might include these hall sensors in the future have a magnetic interference shield

this problem had already been solved in the 90s. the sega saturn analog pad, and the dreampad both used hall effect tracked joysticks, using 4 board mounted hall effect sensors, and a single magnet in the base of the joystick. the design was pretty ingenious, because the centering mechanism was practically impervious to mechanical wear too. even after thousands of hours of use, those sticks did not develop "center wiggle".

@winlover37

Жыл бұрын

Despite the one analog stick, the Dreamcast controller honestly feels amazing. Great fit in the hands, great trigger tension, perfect face buttons, joystick... I really miss Sega.

@larryfoulke6196

Жыл бұрын

iirc the n64 controller also used similar tech for their analog stick

@Cameron00

Жыл бұрын

PlayStation controllers also had it back in the day.

@smashkiller64

Жыл бұрын

@@larryfoulke6196 The Nintendo 64 used a optical encoder just like an old computer mouse with the ball on the bottom.

I wish they would release a replacement sticks for regular controllers just like they have done for steam deck. It will be a pain to replace them in newer harder to disassemble controller designs, but i think it would be worth it.

@MentalEdge

Жыл бұрын

I think the reason they were able to do it for the Deck, is in it the sticks are fully modular, including the PCB they attach to. Meaning they could include the hall effect sensor on the small PCB that you replace alongside the stick. But in most controllers, replacing the thumbsticks means de-soldering the little stick module, but that doesn't include the hall effect sensor, which is on the PCB. Hence, hall effect replacement sticks for say the DS5, would mean replacing the PCB which the sticks are attached to, but in the DS5 that'd mean all the other guts of the controller, too.

@pjdigi

Жыл бұрын

they seem to be working on ones for the switch, theres a photo pinned on their twitter

@AlkaVirus

Жыл бұрын

@@MentalEdge yeah but they didn't make them modular by choice. Why would they do that? better for their profit margins to sell you a new one when drift happens. Capitalism is trash.

@MentalEdge

Жыл бұрын

@@AlkaVirus You're preaching to the choir buddy. Did you take me for some anti-repair fool? I was just explaining why GuliKit is unlikely to come out with hall effect replacement kits for regular controllers, while doing one for the Deck was easy.

@AlejandroCaicedoPUJ

Жыл бұрын

@@pjdigi switch are also modular tho

What's crazy to think about is that it's 2022 and Hall Effect Sensors/Gimbals have been available for so long, their pros have always been known, and there's really not many cons to them either. It's just surprising that it's taking big companies this long to switch over to them. They are superior to potentiometers in every single way. And no, they're really not that much more expensive so cost of manufacturing is not an issue.

@hornattila

Жыл бұрын

the reason they wont switch is because gotta get that extra profit from people buying replacement controllers

@maxmustsleep

Жыл бұрын

yeah it's like wireless headphones, basically pure money printing machines. You can get cheap controllers for way less than 20 bucks so imagine how much profit there is even if you use slightly better materials in their 60-200 $ gamepads.

@rtyzxc

Жыл бұрын

I had to pick apart the rotary encoder of my mouse and scrape off the oxidation from the metal contacts that were causing opposite scrolling errors. If it had an optical encoder it would pretty much last forever. Almost bought a new mouse but turned out to be fixable with some patience.

@nowonmetube

Жыл бұрын

When it's saving them just 1 cent per controller, they do it. Imagine how much money they "saved"! Not to forget, that they gain more money by people buying new hardware.

@lamikal2515

Жыл бұрын

It's like in the 1910s... light bulbs were indestructible, one of those is still lighting up a firefighter station in America if I recall correctly. And then, in the 20s, a group of lightbulb manufacturers, named the Phoebus cartel agreed to not sell lightbulb wich exceed xxx hours of light time before failing, intentionnaly degrading the quality of their products, to push the replacements going out of the factories. At this point in time, modern consumerism was born.

What really pissed me off is that my bootleg PS2 controller that my brother bought 17 years ago never experienced any kind of drift, so its not the technology but more the build quality, they are asking for higher prices but their quality is going downhill

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

PS2 also has a giant deadzone in software, which hides the electromechanical issues somewhat, and much larger stickboxes than those used today, so they do fundamentally have more endurance. They wanted the sticks to feel more responsive and controllers to be slicker, so they optimised things to the point where they barely work - and they're happy enough to cause you to buy replacements.

@karambiatos

Ай бұрын

@@SianaGearz However one issue, ive bought 2 playstation controllers (sony) and both of them have an issue with the right stick jumping all over the place, so in games like Ace Combat you can't really look at your plane because the camera is jumping around like crazy. My old PS2 abused controller never had this issue after years and year of use.

It would be cool if either you guys or gulikit could release hall sensor sticks as replacement kits for some of the most popular controllers

@JamesTHammond

Жыл бұрын

Not sure that would work. You'd probably need to solder new chips onto the existing boards and adjust the controller bios to interpret the signals correctly. That's not a simple project.

@thomasdeutelmoser8986

Жыл бұрын

@@JamesTHammond They sell replacements for the steam deck sticks at least

@wydra9-1

Жыл бұрын

@@JamesTHammond Those chips he demonstrated vary analog output voltage. If these HFS's output a PWM or some other digital signal, that would make sense, but this is just voltage, and the voltage is very similar to what the existing pot-based systems output. I wouldn't be surprised if the challenge is more in getting the HFS chips mounted than anything.

@LorikQuinn

Жыл бұрын

@@wydra9-1 same thinking i had. The voltage output possibly is just a reference to the controller cpu so it knows where the joystick is with no digital signal being sent. If that is the case, modding it into a controller is actually quite simple if these parts are available for purchase. Biggest challenge would be mouting it into the board, alignment and knowing the magnets polarity so it doesn't work backwards (push up and the game goes down). Sadly they don't sell those joystick boxes they make, only way to get them is with the controller or the switch mod :(

@ivanaviNiebla

Жыл бұрын

@@wydra9-1 I thought so too, but seeing that the Steam Deck replacements from Gulikit have chips integrated, I'm guessing there is something else involved in this.

even if the manufacturers don't do this, I would've expected the companies that make modified controllers like Battle beaver, Scuff etc to do this since they're trying to make controllers that offer more and better performance. Scuff's are also known for stick drift

@RealRogerFK

Жыл бұрын

They also want to sell you replacement parts and new controllers, feels like a scam, even GuliKit didn't put back buttons/paddles in KingKong Pro 2, some smaller seller could theoretically destroy everyone else by making a "One size fits all" but they'd run out of money in 2-3 years when everyone has their controller.

@surronzak8154

Жыл бұрын

@@RealRogerFK No problem, they start a new business after 3 years. Like someone building a House is done building, there is no point in never finishing the house and getting paid the hours of work, obsolescence is for lazy people, they should be ashamed

@jordanwardle11

Жыл бұрын

dont scuff just modify a oem controller?

@javianbrown8627

Жыл бұрын

@@jordanwardle11 that's what I did to my controller using parts from Extreme rate. But that doesn't fix the stick drift issues

@jordanwardle11

Жыл бұрын

@@javianbrown8627 the bottom-line is that you can't "fix" stick drift, only remedy it. The only true way is to not have analog sticks in the first place

You enunciate your words so well. It's a joy to hear you explain things

I didn't know these existed, I am getting one for sure. Thank you!!! I also noticed how very cheap inexpensive wired controllers back in the day never had stick drift (it could have possibly had these inside them) the controller would either die out or just stop functioning properly due to the cable becoming faulty.

You guys should do more videos like this. Very informative and well made.

I really really hope that this will pick up, stick drift has been a problem for me for quite some time and there is only so much I can do. Soldering on a new one not only is hard because of the soldering and dangerous (lost a controller because I screwed up) but also just finding original ones isnt as easy as one might think. these would improve controllers a lot and I wish there would be a dualshock version that has them. I wouldnt mind paying extra but not having to worry about the ONE THING that makes the controller last not that long would be such a relief

I was genuinely looking for this video earlier this morning this is perfect timing haha

Thank you so much for bringing this up, I love you guys.

Me who's ps1 dualshock isn't drifting even after 20 years: wow...

@JakeobE

Жыл бұрын

Lmao, single player gamers. Of course you don't notice stick drift, you don't need precise movement to play archaic, non multiplayer games

@irishbattletoster9265

Жыл бұрын

@@JakeobE you will absolutely notice single player or not

@satsumagt5284

Жыл бұрын

My XBOX ONE controller would drift no matter the game, or even the XBOX panel sometimes

@irishbattletoster9265

Жыл бұрын

@@satsumagt5284 same here for ps4

@satsumagt5284

Жыл бұрын

@@irishbattletoster9265 Man, these companies can really just F off for not using more reliable components

Not only hall effect but light sensors as well. SpaceTec had a few in their 3D motion controllers that worked fairly well, though the consumer model (SpaceOrb 360) used cheap plastic in the deflection arms which eventually wore out and broke. The more expensive CAD-style orbs used metal springs which last far longer, and were very reliable.

Thank you for a great video on joystick sensors.

Very Informative. Thank You

Hall effect sensors are also used in earbud cases ! That's how they turn a small light on, or start pairing when the magnetic lid gets openned

@GoodOlKuro

Жыл бұрын

wouldn't a simple magnetic switch be used for that?

Awesome video. I first learned about the difference in controllers when I learned about the user-maintainability of the Steam Deck and the Hall-effect replacement sticks available for it. Just a little more expensive but a *lot* better.

Thank you for the informative video. Your enunciation is extraordinary. Every topic you choose to discuss will become automatically more understandable and enjoyable to the audience. KUDOS sir!

Thanks man info is power, its just how you use it. We may not know all the tech stuff but you just simplified it for us. Thank you very much! Yes if the manufactures catch on gaming will be so much better me, Gamer for life!

Wouldn't be surprised if stick drift is planned obsolescence to make you buy more controllers.

@lazer1036

Жыл бұрын

Fr

@unclegoose3864

Жыл бұрын

it is 100%

@andrewmorris483

Жыл бұрын

I think it's a happy accident.

@albertalberto2288

Жыл бұрын

Well, thats the reason bro, imagine how less controllers they would sell if the controllers more durable

@onixxx1984

Жыл бұрын

I had a stick drift issue and I fixed it with 15$ locally with a service shop, it was not a big issue, I also had a broken spring and that cost around 10$ to fix, local tech guys do not charge much for these issues.

I've experienced my first drift in one of my PS5 controllers. The updated model number which was supposed to be marginally more resistant to the issue. I'd love a pseudo PNP way to swap to the hall effect sensors like for the switch. The dual sense edge not including them at such a ridiculous price point is a huge letdown.

This is great work!!!

great video!! very interesting :D

Excellent video! The fact is that potentiometers are ultra cheap to manufacture and little is needed to make them work well enough. You could even add an offset value in the controller itself (added via software and editable) to correct drift but manufacturers won't let you change it. That could extend the life of your controller at the cost of accuracy. Eventually the compound used for the trace inside the potentiometer will wear out and no software fix will be able to solve drift. This is not the only (or better) solution though. Rotary encoders (optical ones for example) have been around for decades and those are almost wear free. No, those don't have an "infinite" amount of "steps" (not analog) but can have a really really good resolution. Along with some clever math and software you could make them work just as fine. Ahhh but the cost .... (sarcasm). Keep doing videos like this one!

@pratikpramanik7782

Жыл бұрын

This. Also hall effect sensors CAN wear out as the magnets can demagnetize over time in extreme hot and cold situations. Also if using rare earth magnets, there are already shortages of the material required for making them. Opto/rotary encoders don’t have this issue if well sealed. Smoke alarms that use optoencoders all have useful life spans of over 10 years.

@icebergmm

Жыл бұрын

It's a shame Nintendo only used optical rotary encoders on the N64.

@gblargg

Жыл бұрын

@@icebergmm Was going to mention N64 using it. Though for quick movements you could hear the gears running. Seems they could use a simpler analog scheme where the disc has a slit of varying width that progressively blocks or allows light to a sensor as it's turned. Similar to the magnet approach.

@pratikpramanik7782

Жыл бұрын

@@gblargg there are fully analog optical mech keyboard switches that are smaller and more reliable than the n64 controller that could be used.

@gblargg

Жыл бұрын

@@pratikpramanik7782 N64 joystick was optical. The buttons were standard dome switches.

First console with those pots is ... The Sega Dreamcast !!!! It's original contrôlées domuse magnetic sensors for the analog Thumbsticks and the 2 triggers. This is a shame it has not been used from that moment in all controllers. I guess Sega had some kind of patents over them before the Dreamcast flopped :-(

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

No, SEGA has no related patents. It looks to me like SEGA manufactured the joystick under patents licensed from Orvitek, which would have been valid until 2010. Also nobody actually wants to make an eternal joystick? And i can instantly see some issues with this one, it won't last.

@ZaHandle

Жыл бұрын

@@SianaGearz they can sell you more controller ms instead of making one that lasts

@sedrickgates1

Жыл бұрын

@@SianaGearz Patent or not, it was only on the Dreamcast, a console with a lots of good ideas but taken down by Sony's marketing masterplan. Its arcade counterpart is famous for his great arcade games :-) This tech might have its issues but one for the manufacturers is the long lasting ability of magnets compared to potentiometers ;-) PS2, Xbox,... They all went for resistive tech.

@Diddz

23 күн бұрын

@@ZaHandle they'll only make ones that last if they can charge people a subscription to use it

I'm not a gamer so hadn't come across this until someone brought a controller to a Repair Café I was fixing at with this issue - I gave it a clean but not sure if that helped or not in the end as he didn't have the console - this was a useful insight into the solution - kind of reminds me of why old fashioned 'ball' mice were replaced with optical mice over time!

thank you for the short lecture 👍🏻🙏🏻

Why don't the major manufacturers use hall effect sensors instead then? Are they more expensive than the current potentiometers? Or do manufacturers like to introduce the built-in failure with potentiometers so that they can sell more controllers? I suspect it's more likely to be the latter.

@OmairArif

Жыл бұрын

It's both. Potentiometers are dirt cheap so it increases their profits per controller, and since they break it means they sell more of them.

@maou5025

Жыл бұрын

Mass production. Both MS and Nintendo are reporting controller shortage, not sure about Sony.

@antraxbeta23

Жыл бұрын

It's all about money really, they enjoy selling controllers, pretty sure they make nice profits from them

I've been going on about this issue with the antilog modules. I used to solder brand new ones in often to deal with the issue. I really like the solution of using hall effect sensors but I still feel like the little 3D gimball mechanisms need improving too. The are far too delicate and I found the mechanisms actually caused stick drift themselves as over time they don't center themselves very well and can cause that drift regardless of the condition of the alps resistor sensors. I really think other manufactures should go above and beyond and create something that is robust and maybe even ballraced or some type of mechanism with the hall sensors.

@CBEnoddyy

Жыл бұрын

100% agree, Hall effect sensors do not remove the possibility of stick drift. The stick not returning too centre is the problem. I suspect the hall effect sensor has a lower resolution than a potentiometer and that's why it helps with drift, Which is something you don't want.

Background music was on point great video

Excellent vid dewd.

They just need to use magnetic Hall effect sensors to eliminate the 2 of 3 types of stick drift and the only 2 1st party controllers to use hall effect sensors are the ps3 controller and the sega dreamcast controller.

@banescar

Жыл бұрын

What would be the third type of drift?

@neotil

Жыл бұрын

@@banescar Wear on the center return spring of the stick. The part that makes your stick stiff and spring back into the center part. It can get sloppy over time or even completely fail after a hard drop

@fgmenth

Жыл бұрын

@@neotil at least this lasts way longer and if it ever fails it's extremely easy to replace

@neotil

Жыл бұрын

@@fgmenth Yes, it does last way longer. But if you consider it to be easily replaceable then just replace the entire stick at once...? You're already desoldering the center parts so why keep the old "sensors" (potentiometers)

@JamesTHammond

Жыл бұрын

So how did the original sticks in an N64 work? To me it always felt like something was stretching and I imagined some thin chords being measured somehow. Probably daft.

Although it may be because I'm a PC gamer first, I don't think I've ever had drift issues so much as the spring that centers the stick wearing down to the point that there's a large enough freely moveable space in the middle with no resistance. That is the only thing I've ever really had to adjust deadzones for for the most part.

Very good video, very well explain 👍

Very interesting, didn´t hear of that brand of controller, I´m going to get one, thank you.

Hall effect sensors are also prone to go bad . I have removed several bad hall sensors from laptop motherboards which were preventing the laptop to turn on by giving a false signal to the embedded controller that the lid is closed. . Best bet is to go for optics based solution .

@taurolyon

Жыл бұрын

I've seen more than a few myself but usually in the opposite state where the computer thinks the lid is constantly open. This is an interesting concept for both applications! I can see how a simple light sensor could be implemented for a laptop lid and could be contained within the hinge. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sure if there are optical emitters and sensors that are small enough to replace the joystick potentiometer size that will has enough sensitivity and resolution.

@victortitov1740

Жыл бұрын

optical isn't perfect either, as dust and grease can obstruct the light path. Hall is better, i think. Another almost eternal technology is capacitive.

@maxinventer

Жыл бұрын

​@@victortitov1740 Use sealed enclosure to mitigate the problem of foreign objects . Also hall effect sensors can easily get affected from the altering strong magnetic fields from the nearby devices such as built-in speakers in the controllers due to space constraint .This is the reason why phones and tablets do not use hall sensors to detect phone cover as they contain strong neodynium magnets but rather rely on the proximity sensor .It is easier to shield a device from light than than from magnetic fields . Capacitive is difficult to implement because you cannot induce charge from outside or conduct charge as you normally do with your fingers as the analog sticks are normally rubber coated and creating a capacitive array with high resolution in a small 3d space would not be economically feasible .Till now optics is the best practical approach

@victortitov1740

Жыл бұрын

@@maxinventer static magnetic fields from nearby magnets can be canceled in firmware. Dynamic magnetic fields can be shielded by a steel enclosure. And i highly doubt these fields are strong enough to even matter - phones have magnetometers (compass) in them and detect the magnetic field of the earth without much trouble, which is way way wayy weaker than the field of a neo magnet in close proximity to a sensor. You don't need arrays of electrodes to make a capacitive sensor - just two pieces of metal will do, as long as they are close enough together that their mutual capacitance is vastly larger than that to surroundings. Then you just measure the capacitance in analog way. Pressure sensors commonly work in this manner.

@maxinventer

Жыл бұрын

@@victortitov1740 Shielding will increase the size of the enclosure and dynamic magnetic field will always vary according to the audio signal and will require complex programming in firmware as even in 8 bit mode the ADC will have 256 steps . For capacitance based solution it will require a refresh circuit and since the minimum number of steps required is 256 in 8 bit mode it will require some serious shielding to prevent a drift in default capacitance values . I have made a dsp based on your approach in the past and the preset values tend to drift in real-time when used without shielding. Also the device will also need to pass emf and EMC test and will increase the pain of the designer . You are theoretically correct but the target of the design here is to accurately measure steps to avoid drifting and that can only be done by using higher bit resolution which will be very hard to maintain using varying charge capacitance . One typical example is when a laptop is run with an unclean power source the touchpad starts behaving erratically and goes out of calibration due to the use of a poorly shielded power supply.

they won't do that because they want you to buy new controllers

@DoritoFD

Жыл бұрын

What about discontinued controllers? I recently had to buy a PS3 controller but I couldn't a brand new original Dualshock 3, I had to buy it second hand. I wish they still supported accessories for their old consoles.

@WallaWaller

Жыл бұрын

@@DoritoFD their old consoles make them even less money. Gaming companies have proven that if they could erase their consoles from existence after their life cycle they would.

I've not heard of this controller before. Will certainly get one now to see if it can replace the Xbone controller I use currently on PC.

Just started having drift issues with my PS5 controller. Thanks for this video very informative and i got to try gamepad tester and see the drift on my controller in real time. I don't think the manufactures are going t fix that issue since Sony is pushing a $200 controller now and each normal controller is $76 a piece now. At their level it is about making money not the care of us

They can do it by looking at the original Dualshock 3 and dreamcast and saturn controllers. They use halleffect instead or cheap potentiometers

@GenesHand

Жыл бұрын

The Dualshock 3 use hall sensors? Or was Six Axis controller that doesn't has rumble?

@GinoBrand5

Жыл бұрын

@@GenesHand Dualshock 3 model CECHZC2U (maybe some other models), has hall-effect, yes.

@edwardtan1354

Жыл бұрын

OG Xbox as well

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

@@edwardtan1354 Nah the Duke has standard potentiometer ALPS sticks, same as PS1 Dualshock.

@edwardtan1354

Жыл бұрын

@@SianaGearz so maybe it was the 360? since IIRC Ben actually salvaged 1 analog stick from an Xbox controller and that had magnets in it

A very similar thing happened in the DJ world. Originally, all DJ mixers used contact faders where a couple of brushes would move over two carbon tracks as the fader was moved. The carbon tracks could wear out, and dust/grime getting inside a fader could affect the contact between the brushes and tracks. That would lead to the sound bleeding or crackling - not good. Now many DJ mixers use non-contact faders that use optical or magnetic technology, eliminating the issues that contact faders had. I think whether companies use these new stick modules will come down to cost more than anything. I don't really buy into the "they want them to break so you have to buy new ones" argument, even though there is some merit to that, cos I think ultimately, they would prefer the consumer to have a better time with their products, have fewer customer service contacts regarding broken controllers, and create less waste. I would like them to use higher quality components all round tbh, cos I love the feel and features of MS's Elite controllers, for example, but I have had a bunch of technical issues with both the OG and Series 2 versions.

@A.D.D.O.C.D.T

Жыл бұрын

Rane 🤘

Thank you my homie Ifixit

I appreciate how this good fellow pronounces his t's so clearly.

Thanks for the explainer! I’ve still never had stick drift in all these years though, I feel like I’m the only one but.

The biggest issue I've had with controllers (apart from joycons lol), are simply the mechanical bits wearing out rather than drift, leading to sloppy sticks. Honestly I think just replaceable stick boxes are more of a solution that covers all failures, rather than stick technology.

@SkulsterDulster

Жыл бұрын

Youre saying replaceable is better than something that fixes the problem so replacements arent needed?

@robinrai4973

Жыл бұрын

@@SkulsterDulster as I said these sticks will fail over time also, the plastic gates will simply wear down over time and become sloppy. Having the sticks be socketed instead of soldered would make either type of stick replaceable should they fail.

@SkulsterDulster

Жыл бұрын

@@robinrai4973 Makes sense, I agree.

Great tech!

The Xbox controllers triggers use the same technology I would expect the next version of the elite controller to use these for the joysticks as well I'm tired of soldering on new potentiometers every 3 months for my controller

A simple solution without having to change hardware for the current existing hardware would be just to simply allow dead zone adjustments on every console on a per controller basis. Calibration for full motion and then a fully adjustable middle dead zone would help immensely. A large middle dead zone would eventually become a problem, but for minor to even somewhat drastic drift, it could cancel it out. It's amazing that dead zone settings aren't already a thing on all consoles by now.

I'm looking forward to getting the Gulikit thumbsticks for my Steam Deck as they're using magnets too. Though even hall effect sensors drift eventually.

Life changing information here

A pro controller from both Sony and MS that lets users open the controller to replace broken parts at a cost of $200 would probably be worth it since you pay a high cost of front but the controller would last more than 2 console generations with heavy use.

Sometimes you can mitigate a little bit of drift depending on which of the axis is affected, what action is required, and if the game or software supports it. 1. By adjusting the deadzones, or 2. for example when it affects running of the character, to map that action to another button if possible. I've had to do it in a few occasions. It's not a solution, just postponing the inevitable, but you can still keep using it until you can fix it properly.

@rotor13

Жыл бұрын

Adjusting deadzones and re-mapping buttons delays or masks the problem. Hall-Effect or Optical sensors are better and longer lasting. The N64 controller uses an optical sensor and the thing that wears out is the analog stick itself grinding against itself, not the sensor. But because the stick and sensor are one unit, you just replace it. I had to replace it in my N64 very early on, just about 2 years after the n64 launched. Knowing what the actual failure is, using a little dab of lithium grease to prevent the plastic-on-plastic contact grinding itself into powder - that same controller still works to this day for my kids.

It's funny that the N64 had a clever LED-photosensor setup with no electrical contact points either. Their issue was that they buggered up the mechanical contact points though so the physical stick would wear down and not hold centre. Zero drift, but after a while it wouldn't pull itself to centre anymore, you had to hold the limp stick manually. If hall effects are expensive, I reckon repackaging the photoreceptor setup into this formfactor with the superior gimbal setup we have these days would be the best of both worlds and super cheap.

Well done. 👏

As many of us have said though... we've experienced drift because the springs wear out and the control stick sticks in a given direction. I've never worn a controller to the point the sensors wear out, but the springs do where the stick is sloppy and no longer returns to home. I mean is this an improvement? Sure... I'd love to see better springs though.

@rafaelgsbr

Жыл бұрын

Yes. I have fixed a few controllers by replacing the sticks with some cheap ones, but keeping the original potentiometers because they're better quality and there's nothing wrong with them. My problem is always the mechanical part, the potentiometers are always fine.

@THEpicND

Жыл бұрын

@@rafaelgsbr my potentiometers are busted after just 3 months of use on an xbox controller..

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

Indeed this also strikes me. The Dreamcast and flight sticks last forever because they ditch the XY splitter assembly and directly read the position of the magnet with 4 Hall sensors underneath, and do the axis transformation digitally. The lack of mechanical splitter allows them to put a large spring wrapping around the assembly which barely moves in use and thus doesn't degrade with time. Another problem in ALPS style sticks is wear in the joints of the XY splitter, again not a problem in prior existing Hall sticks. This assembly reintroduces problems of the ALPS style stick. Potentiometer lifetime is about as long as 3 mechanical assembly lifetimes on the Xbox360 pad, PS2 pad and several others. I only do old stuff but i know my way around it. I bet these guys invented a worse Hall stick in order to be able to patent it; the claimed usefulness would be drop-in compatibility (in a variant with trimmable opamps for example) against existing ALPS style sticks. Apropos interesting patents: Allegro has one which ditches the spring and uses a magnet instead, considering there is already a magnet dangling from the bottom of the stick. I'm looking at that and thinking: finally a patent that... while i dislike patents, this is specifically the kind of smart the patent system was invented for! Like you look at this and think wow, it's elegant and simple and nobody thought of this before?

@freyalunar3633

Жыл бұрын

yep, my controller is so worn out that when i push up or down on the analog stick, it stuck that way. I don't think hall effect sensor can fix this issue at all :)

The steam deck uses Hall effect sensor in the analog sticks. A way to make Hall effect analog stick cheap to manufacture is to take the design from the Sega dreamcast integrate the Hall effect ADC into the main I/O chip, integrate the top housing of the joysticks in to the top body of the controller, and use a smaller spring to further shave down costs.

@amarokorama

Жыл бұрын

No, the Steam Deck does not use Hall effect analog sticks by default. But GuliKit, the manufacturer of the gamepad shown in this video, sells Hall effect analog sticks for the Steam Deck as replacements.

I own an original Sony PS1 controller from 97. Got an adapter for it and been using it on the PC with no problems! It still works better than most modern controllers and it's built to last.

They should use sealed greased pots that's what they use in (good quality ones anyway) R/C servos for the feedback pots (the thing that tells the servo what position it's at). The lubrication prevents the tracks from wearing down and it's sealed so dirt can't get in. I mean it will eventually go bad but I have R/C equipment made in the late 80's that still works just fine.

Thanks for the cool vid. Very informative. So why aren't manufacturers using this tech already? what's the downside of it? Are they purposely trying to build in, obsolescence in this case? I mean if they did like you guys said in another video, at least make the thumb sticks hardware, replaceable, that would be a great thing?

@iFixitYourself

Жыл бұрын

This is an interesting question and as others have guessed it may simply come down to cost but it's difficult to know without further investigation. Our goal was to identify the problem and potential solutions and you are absolutely right, making modular thumbsticks would be one solution. The Steam Deck has done just that.

@Metallica4Life1995

Жыл бұрын

Planned obsolescence is my guess honestly, it makes no sense to keep using potentiometers when HES are so much more reliable and not that much more expensive to manufacture.

@Ringo_ChanSan

Жыл бұрын

Potentiometers are as cheap as dirt so I think that's the main reason, the obsolescence is a byproduct.

@Michael-Archonaeus

Жыл бұрын

The downside is, you could still be playing your PS2 20 years later, instead of buying Sony's new console. This is bad for business. They would rather force you to buy the newest console, and pay for all your old games again!

I think Nintendo would prefer you buy a new Switch every 4 months since that makes them the most money. Why would they stop if people don't stop buying them?

Controllers for flight simulators are using contactless sensors (Hall, magneto resistance): Thrustmaster Warthog in X, Y axes, T.16000M in X,Y axes, but keep pot in Z axis (twist rudder) what cause issues, same goes with Logitech X-52, X-56. VKB, VirPil, WingWing use X,Y, Z axes. Similarly, "high end" R/C controllers use contactless sensors.

PS3 controllers used hall effect sensors as well according to Ben Heck. They also sometimes suffered from drift, but maybe to a much lesser degree than other consoles. Another reason for drift being increasingly more common may be that in the strive for "precision", game and console makes are minimizing the dead zone, making the software less tolerant for hardware wear. :(

@FERTUHG

Жыл бұрын

Not all ps 3 controllers had Hall effect sticks

I've always wondered why optical encoders haven't been adopted. So much professional music hardware is covered in optical knobs. Hell it's how pretty much every mouse works now, so it's not like we're lacking the tiny precision power efficient integration.

@Aikano9

Жыл бұрын

They simply cost more.

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

Optical encoder happened, that's how the N64 stick worked! Honestly it's terrible, the splitter to translate the XY movement into separate X and Y wasn't well made due to unsuitable material choice (ABS - not enough abrasion resistance due to flake grafting), there was an attempt at gearing which wasn't that well conceived either, and there were only like a couple dozen steps of precision across the movement range, like maybe 64 tops. Which pro music hardware has optical knobs? I don't deal with stuff that costs above a grand, but i haven't seen anything, all purely electrical contact based so far, sealed oil type though, nice enough to last a lifetime. Except DJ controller platters, those are always optical.

@placebomessiah

Жыл бұрын

@@SianaGearz literally hundreds of devices and it's not just limited to audio hardware. pretty much anything with a precision knob that spins forever. thanks to optical mouse technology, modern optical encoders have evolved to be incredibly accurate and cheap.

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

@@placebomessiah Not "literally anything", lots of indent-free contact rotary incremental encoders, they're the standard solution really. Feel and work fine, when well made, and even in middling music gear, they've got some quality behind them. Naturally not forever unlike optical. Optical devices have a flaw, they need to not accumulate dust, and at small sizes they need to be fully shielded, which is way more difficult than it seems; this isn't the case with mechanical ones, the oil pressure just doesn't let any dust come in so the seal can be fairly loose and they'll still run for a couple decades. Making a tight seal is a near impossibility since you want that shaft to rotate easily. Or like DJ turntables there there is often just the bare minimum of shielding but the optical gaps for rim sensing are so generous that they just won't get clogged up in a reasonable time. I mean obviously people still manage to clog them up sometimes. Another interesting issue is in the optical absolute encoder crossfader Behringer made for some of their higher end DJ mixers, which is nice enough, should last an eternity... unless it happens to be used near a fog machine, where it will temporarily glitch out. Not great for the intended usecase. Also nothing to do with optical mice necessarily. You remember ball mice? They split the ball motion onto two shafts which were read by optical incremental encoders. That's still how incremental optical encoders work, not with array imagers and DSPs that optical mice use. They didn't reach very high step counts, unlike possible with sealed optical encoders, though those have a considerable cost to them.

@rotor13

Жыл бұрын

@@Aikano9 My optical mouse cost me $15. I doubt that majority of that $15 is the optical sensor.

This is nice! But my question is, can I just replace my old - non hall effect sensors with hall sensors on old controllers? I think if we can match the voltages it should be possible since the form factors are almost identical.

@maxmustsleep

Жыл бұрын

iirc the guys from Linus Tech Tips upgraded them for the Steam Deck recently and it was awesome! I'd love to see more custom / third party controllers using this tech since the major platforms will likely prefer the increased sales from their designed obsolescence

@Mr371312

Жыл бұрын

Me too. But the only off the shelf ones readily available I know are ps3 controller replacements, which use 4 pins

gulikit stonks would go up after this, thanks for introducing the controller

As a flight and racing simmer, I know hall sensor from like 2008, but now it's almost norm (along with some optics senor some where and force cell is another story then...) I can't believe it's not yet in game controller yet... if they decide not, Good news is, with some 3D print part it's very easy to convert one to hall. I have done one for an old throttle quadrant.

@ZaHandle

Жыл бұрын

Actually used to be on game controllers (from the mid 90s too) then got removed because they wanted more sales

Long story short: The solution is using magnetic hall effect sensors which don't wear out.

What is very funny is that Nintendo's first analogue controller (n64) used optical sensors and not resistive pots. If only they had proper bearing surface instead of plastic on plastic.

Yeah i fly racing drones and we’ve been using Hall effect sensors for years. They’re amazing and I’ve been frustrated at how game controllers aren’t using them at all

Hall effect sensors were in controllers ages ago. Sega used them on the Saturn and Dreamcast, and Sony actually used them in some early Sixaxis models, as in the very first PS3 controllers that had no rumble. I honestly think they simply didn't catch on because there is more money in selling controllers that will definitely break much easier, and the issue would've kept going mostly ignored if Nintendo hadn't pushed it as far as they did with the switch, making one of the most expensive 1st party controllers ever and also one of the most shoddily put together.

We need to push this out there! Companies should not get away with this.

After watching the video, I have two questions. 1. This problem hasn't arisen until recently; how did past controllers have far better potentiometer quality when compared to today's controllers? 2. Wouldn't Hall Effect Sensors add latency as they output an analog signal that needs conversion to a digital signal?

@Berengal

Жыл бұрын

1. They didn't. Potentiometer based sensors have always had the same drift issues, for example as someone who only played Playstation at friends' house I don't think I've ever used a PS1 or PS2 dualshock controller that didn't have really bad drift. There are multiple reasons why it's perceived to be more of a problem now than before: You might not have run into the problem yourself on older controllers; that's just random chance. The volume of failure has gone up because there are way controllers out there being used, the failures show up sooner because spend more time gaming and modern games rely more on thumbstick controls than old games; it doesn't mean the quality of the sensors have gotten worse. It's much easier to come across stories of failed sticks now than before because of modern social media. Older games often had low precision input (e.g. only two fixed walking and running speeds) and large deadzones which hid the drift. Finally, joysticks other than thumbsticks, with other types of sensors, were more popular, so drift wasn't something people were that aware of as a problem. 2. Pots also output an analog signal. There's no difference.

@TheRacingDevon

Жыл бұрын

@@Berengal Thanks! Your points gave me a new perspective and helped me learn a few things today. However, I still can't help but wonder if the quality of potentiometers in controllers truly hasn't changed for the worse, especially when compared to the Nintendo Switch Joy-Cons. Otherwise, when I think about it, yeah, I didn't have as much time to play video games in the past compared to now (let alone even afford it), so maybe you're right. I quickly read that there were analog and digital potentiometers without actually understanding what they were; it makes sense now.

@THEpicND

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRacingDevon it has to. I’ve had gamecube controllers with still perfect joysticks after 10 years of use while I’ve had 3 modern controllers busted in 3 years. 1 joycon, 1 nsw pro controller and 1 xbox series controller. Also my xbox one controller is now drifting but that lasted almost 10 years since I got it in 2013. It seems modern joysticks are not as durable as they used to be, even if they are using the same tech

while this videos shows a part of the problem i feel there is more to it than just the potentiometers. i have fixed a lot of controller and one thing i noticed besides damaged potentiometers is a loose center spring. most of the sticks have a hard time staying in the middle positions because of old worn out springs. they start to have some play in the center position. so a hall sensor would also pick up this slack.

You can use Hall effect sensors and it won't fix joystick drift permanently. You still have the OTHER kind of thumbstick drift seen most on stuff like the PSP and Index controllers, and old arcade units and a Thrustmaster T-16000m I had, where the springs wear out so the stick physically slides to a side when not in use. Doesn't matter how reliable the sensors are if the sticks themselves drift. The T-16000m especially already used Hall effect sensors and STILL experienced drift.

And yet the big guys won't do it. The cost still outweighs projected lifetime.

I can think of a few reasons why the analog potentiometer is still the standard in gaming. Apart from the cost and availability of components, one thing that springs to mind as an issue is the effect of rumble motors. These operate by generating a magnetic field, and the controller would need to be designed from the ground up such that the effects of having the rumble motor running would not be detrimental to the accuracy of the stick. Whether that’s through greater physical distance between the sensor and the motor, such that it’s not affected, or by compensating in software, it’s an extra design consideration that the analog devices just don’t have. Another issue, specific to the Joy-Con at this point, is the physical throw distance. Joy-Cons use very low sticks, by which I mean the point on which they pivot in both the X and Y directions is a lot closer to the thumb than it is on other joystick designs. This means it’s harder to package the sensor in the joystick unit, and to have enough physical movement of the magnet mounted to the joystick to be able to affect the Hall sensor enough to get the accuracy wanted in the output voltage. Even with all these things taken into account, the centering effect of the stick is only as good as the physical mechanism on which it relies. If the spring on which the joystick rides fails, it’s the same problem whether your stick is using magnets or resistors to read its value. This is also another argument towards the potentiometer-based device; it’s available as a single unit which incorporates a standardised upright. A Hall-based solution requires engineering the physical action of the stick separately from the sensor mechanism, raising the design complexity. I do find it worth noting that certain current-gen controllers do use Hall effect as a matter of course, specifically in the analog triggers on the Xbox controller; and these have their own vibration motors in close proximity. I suspect they are using software compensation.

@iFixitYourself

Жыл бұрын

This is interesting! I'll certainly read up on this and see how Gulikit approached the problem. Do you have any references for this information?

@DragRedSim

Жыл бұрын

@@iFixitYourself In terms of references, I don’t have any documents; this is speculation on my part regarding reasons why Hall effect isn’t the standard. Most of this actually comes from my experience in sim-racing hardware. I have a Thrustmaster T-LCM set of pedals, which use a load cell to detect braking force, and Hall effect sensors to monitor the acceleration and clutch pedals; the arms of the pedals are made of ferrous metal. However, when I tried to mount vibration motors (the same type as used in 360 controllers) which were connected to a separate device for control, I found that the interference from the motors being activated would cause the accelerator pedal to stop responding. Since they’re separate devices, and the pedals are effectively a “black box” in that I can’t alter the firmware of them, it’s not possible to apply the software compensation I mentioned. However, I believe that other pedal sets which do have motors integrated as an option are not affected in the same way; whether that is through software (ignoring readings when the motor is known to be active, for example; if the motor is being driven by PWM, it may also be possible to take readings when the motor is off) or physical separation; I haven’t used these, so I can’t tell either way. It may be worth repeating the experiment shown on the Gulikit controller while holding a small motor (driven from another device, such as an Arduino) nearby, and see how it reacts when the motor is both on and off. The rest of the effects I mentioned are speculation on my part; the physical design of the joysticks on the Joy-Cons are known to be small packages, as can be seen from replacement parts, while the spring argument is basically saying that it’s easier to design the whole controller if the functionality of center return is already provided by the joystick module, rather than adding it in separately. I have no experience in industrial electronic design, these are all speculation on my part as to reasons why, partially based on my own experience. I also want to note that the PS5 adapter triggers still use potentiometers to determine their position; since they have motors in very close proximity, it may not be possible for them to be substituted with Hall sensors in the manner that the Xbox triggers use.

@SianaGearz

Жыл бұрын

Dreamcast had an interesting quirk that a number of screws in the controller anywhere around the Hall stick had to be out of NF metal, something bronze like. I think they puzzled around with screw placement and overall construction a little to make it work, it sure makes that impression. Indeed the rumble motor was VERY far from any Hall hardware but i don't know whether that has anything to do with that or whether it just worked out like that. I could certainly create some interference nearby and check next time i break out the Dreamcast. Besides Hall stick the triggers are also Hall.

I wish there was a company that sold replacement / conversion kits for console/VR controllers I have bad drift/sticking in my left index controller, it's a known issue and I'd happily buy a replacement/conversion board to swap out the insides to get it working right again.

I just ordered one of these controllers a few days ago! I really hope it is overall good quality (though it shouldn't be too hard to beat the Afterglow Xbox 360 controller I've been using for the past 10 years)

@rathalomaniac6212

Жыл бұрын

The fact that you've been using the same controller for 10 years says a lot about its quality, actually. I know that the shells on those Rock Candy controllers aren't very nice, but the internals are pretty reliable.

So far I’ve not had a single controller having drift. However, one thing I never do is never add pressure to the stick while turning. And I have my thumb on the outer edges, not laying flat in the middle Center of the stick like many people do.

This is industrial design at its worse. I keep returning controllers to get replacements. Seems hugely wasteful.

The worst thing is that Microsoft (and I guess Sony etc) uses Hall sensors in the Xbox One controllers, but only in the triggers. This is because the other benefit of Hall-effect sensors is that they have virtually no dead zones. They react immediately and predictably to inputs unlike traditional potentiometers, which makes them great for trigger actions like snappy shooting and progressive acceleration.

I love this, i went on amazon and put 1 of these controllers in my cart. Is it possible to replace the sticks on other controllers for these magnetic ones and just make your controllers drift-proof?

How to fix stick drift on PS5.......buy a third party switch controller.

Reminder: We had a Solution with the PS3 - but everyone flamed and bashed that Controller, didn't let a good hair on it or talk positively about the PS3 controller in any ways. So its OUR fault for that!

So, the issue outlined here can also be caused in part by the by the joystick's centering mechanism wearing down, there is a lot of plastic on plastic contact in there, and over time that will cause the stick to not center and feeling rather loose. You can currently buy joystick components that function and fit the same as the plastic ones, but they are all metal, which lasts a lot longer and feels a tad snappier. I've refurbished a lot of xbox 360 wireless controllers with these parts. I started doing this when I noticedy twenty year old well loved Saitek controller had almost no joystick wear, while my significantly newer 360 controllers had so much wear it was unusable, then I popped them open and noticed the difference.

@hellandbackhoe

Жыл бұрын

If you remove the circuit board that contains the hall effects sensors and then demagnetize it. It will fix the problem of the sensors becoming magnetized over time due to their proximity to the magnets.

I sprayed a bit of gt85 under my sticks and it solved my problem

That's a misleading, clickbaity title. It should be more like "How manufacturers can fix the drift issue permanently." Oftentimes you can't even fix drift by swapping the part as controllers are calibrated at the factory and there's no way for the consumer to re-calibrate it after swapping out parts.

@sadbucket

Жыл бұрын

@karm42yn Yes, but this is iFixit. Not theyFixit

@karm42yn

Жыл бұрын

@@sadbucket Yes, but this is iFixit. Not theyFixit.

Soo....the video doesn't show how to fix joystick drift on your controller permanently. Clickbaity title. If you want to know how to REALLY fix your controller, watch LinusTechTips video on this subject.

@TechDove

Жыл бұрын

It does show how to fix it permanently, with these magnetic sensors. Though yes, it doesn't show YOU how to fix YOUR controller.

@unclegoose3864

Жыл бұрын

Can't you read? The title clearly says How Manufacturers Can Fix Joystick Drift. Not how you can.

@Rice--0

Жыл бұрын

he really edited the comments instead of deleting it, it's just amazing even more amazing he didn't edit it to admit his mistake

I just bought the Gulikit KingKong 2 Pro and the only problem i had was that on day one, one of the buttons started sticking. I was able to take apart the controller and lubed the mechanical button with some beeswax (organic lip balm) that I had on hand. For the same price as an OEM XBox controller, it works great, for PC anyway. Here's to hoping that they add XBox support in the KingKong 3.

Yeah my Xbox series controller started drifting after a half year of regular use, never had drifting issues before i just thought it would only happen if you carry your switch for example in your pockets or something or in a backpack but just playing games is enough to cause drifting.

Increasing the deadzone a little solved all my drift issues in the few games that were affected...

You just sold me on the Gulikit with that easily replaceable battery, it's one of the reasons I didn't want one though I prefer AA batteries because they're easily replaceable, This is pretty easy too if/when the battery needs new life.

I believe that the original Microsoft Sidewinder force feedback pc joystick used a single multi axis hall effect sensor on the X and y axis inputs.

already seen the Steamdeck replacement sticks that Gullikit has released hope they release one for the PS4\PS5 and for the Xbox one\Series controllers as well.

I wonder what is "The latest Master Elite Five Thousand for the Playstation 5" mentioned on 0:07.