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@ems4884

2 ай бұрын

You have to admit "bronze age goat-herders" was a funny joke. "Iron age city dwellers" just doesnt have the same punch.

@noahtylerpritchett2682

2 ай бұрын

I have a theory that Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites used to be Judahites and Israelites but rebelled or refused to join the confederations and that's why they're given related status through Haran for Moab and Ammon and Jacob and Esau being brothers. Brotherness with Esau and cousins with Lot's race solely do to distance But narrations in the Bible is full of love and hate. So love verses are reconciliations for when they Annex and conquer them, and hatred, in that they were at war. I theorize that the Moabites and Ammonites were of the original 12 tribes, but Judah and Simeon redacted them and inserted themselves in. While Edomites used to be jews but rebelled before later rejoining Judah when John Hyrcanus conquered them. A reconciliation of this narrative being the inserted story of Jacob and Esau loving, hating than reconciling each other. That's why cherry pick Bible verses has love and redemption hope for Edom, Moab and Amon, but lots of hate as well. Yes, I'm calling Ammonites and Moabites Israelite and calling Edomites Jews. The Yahweh Chomosh battle? Could be same God recognized differently than immediately turned around that chomosh didn't exist and was yahweh all along helping the Ammonites. Of all the Canaanite tribes afterall, why is Moab, Edom and Ammon mentioned? Lastly, I believe the Bible racial identification is based on who Israelites live or hate or are neutral too. The various X Y Z tribes called Shuahites, Zimranites, Jokshanites, Medanites, Midianites, Ishmaelites and Ishbakites were Isaac's brother. So? Is it that they were friendly towards the Israelites? And that the multiple other Arab tribes were unmentioned? Is the Hamitic narrative simply Canaanite and Egyptian people the Hebrews hated, Philistines, Berbers (levi from Egypt and fault berbers) the Egyptians and Canaanite tribes who didn't join the Israelite confederation were called Hamitic. And Semitic were neutral familiar races. And Japhethite is whoever Israel doesn't contact much or like. Afterall some groups like Hittites and Greeks we'd assume be Japhethites, are called Hamitic. Any wartime lingering memory? Certainly Arab tribes who you'd think be called Semitic is hamitic war enemy of Israel, Nimrod the Babylonian tyrant a hamite, Assyrians, mix Hamitic and Semitic, So love hate. See what I'm saying? Hate i.e conquest and love because Job went to Nineveh to convert them to Judaism, my interpretation? 10 lost tribes inhabited Nineveh. And Samaritans are the other 10. I actually think job is a Israelite not judahite.

@dougjardine8545

2 ай бұрын

​@@ems4884 it's only a joke because people think that goat-herders are bumpkins who don't think. There's a lot of free time to think when herding goats. For your average city-dweller, not so much: they have to work harder and longer hours just to keep from starving.

@darthparallax5207

2 ай бұрын

This video is the Biblical Scholarship equivalent of "I found irrefutable PROOF that the US Civil War really happened! I have therefore chosen to not believe the United States ever existed or Declared Independence from Britain."

@ems4884

2 ай бұрын

@@dougjardine8545 OK. I'll rmember remember that next time I meet a goat-herder that he is most likely a great intellectual Perhaps he will want to strike up conversation about Kirkegaard.

The US-Canada comparison is fascinating to me. Especially as both countries have a shared language, overlapping culture, and similar histories/origins while also having political independence and key differences in their history/origins

@UK_Canuck

2 ай бұрын

Vive la différence! 😂

@draagax

2 ай бұрын

Well, Canada had more of a French/English colonial origin, while the US had a Spanish/French/English origin. And now Canada is split between French and English languages, while the US is primarily English with Spanish rising up, and some residual French influences such as in New Orleans/Louisiana. so yes, similar origins, but only 1 (or 1.5 if you include the one major region of the US with French) shared language.

@dani.lepore9410

2 ай бұрын

​@@Jess-737 Central-South America has a far more wide indigenous descent than the US and Canada.

@fraliexb

2 ай бұрын

Also if Canada and the United States merged together, I'm sure more than 1 state would have been added. Each province could become another state.

@jakeaurod

2 ай бұрын

US residents are called Americans because they have "America" in the name and no other part of the country name is conducive to converting into a name in the local language (English). Neither "Uniteds" or "Unis" or "Teds" for short, nor "Stateses", "Staters", "Statesians" or "Stays" works well. How many other countries in North America or South America have the same problem and would prefer to be known by the name "American"?

Now I truly understand this quote "Myths are not stories that are untrue. Rather they are tales that don't fit neatly in the historical record which serve as a foundation of a culture."

@stratisgeorgilis7703

2 ай бұрын

I don’t know why but I did not expect to see another Extra Mythology fan Greetings my friend!

@michaelmoon3429

2 ай бұрын

@@stratisgeorgilis7703 greetings to you as well

@srajandikshit7590

2 ай бұрын

​@@michaelmoon3429Truly a great qoute. Something I have to use regularly towards people who think its superstitious and unscientific to believe in myths and practices

@Fly-the-Light

2 ай бұрын

I think the logical fallacy here is ignoratio elenchi - it presents an argument that is sound, but it's conclusion is nonsense. The last sentence is fair; myths are indeed ahistorical tales that are culturally relevant, but in no way does that mean they're "not untrue." Whilst some, such as the Trojan War, may have roots in reality the claims of Gods and Heroes cannot be supported even if it was culturally relevant. The very reason they don't fit into the historical record is because they make extremely large claims and have no evidence to back it up. As such, all, or almost all, can be dismissed as false until such time than any evidence appears. Understanding them is still valuable to understanding how people at the time thought, but the point this quote is making is a horrible one.

@Fly-the-Light

2 ай бұрын

@@srajandikshit7590 It is. You can believe whatever you want and do whatever you want, but don't try to pass off unfalsifiable pseudoscience as science. The quote is also logically fallacious and makes no sense; I put a full reasoning of how in a comment to the original commenter if you would like to see.

*casually drops Ea-nasir’s face in a timeline* Refuses to elaborate

@Anthropomorph0

2 ай бұрын

Top ten copper merchants, hands down.

@theshenpartei

2 ай бұрын

The worst copper seller of all time

@cesarionoexisto2848

2 ай бұрын

wait i missed that, where was he referenced?

@brago.gameplays

2 ай бұрын

@@cesarionoexisto2848the timeline, just a generic sumerian statue 😂 @ 4:15

@shehannanayakkara4162

2 ай бұрын

I like how the internet just randomly decided that this statue was Ea-nasir

I'm not religious, but for whatever reason, I just find biblical history so fascinating, both from a secular and a theological perspective. I've watched a fair amount of content on the subject on KZread and other platforms, and your videos are always amongst my favorites. They are very well produced and have such clear and articulate narration. I also really like how you go into detail regarding each of the major academic theories and how they've evolved over time, instead of just presenting a snapshot of the current scholarly consensus on an ever-evolving subject.

@concerninghobbits5536

2 ай бұрын

Exactly my experience! A lot of videos I see are just like a 1 minute summary or they tell you about one detail and don't give any context, assuming you've already studied this stuff.

@Dani_sister4peace

2 ай бұрын

You should take a look at the Quran. I'm amazed at how close they are to catholics. And the story of Mary is so very detailed. Their history is much easier to fact check

@concerninghobbits5536

2 ай бұрын

@@Dani_sister4peace I've been planning to at some point, I didn't realise how similar Islam is to Judaism and Christianity beyond having arguably the same god, it's fascinating to see the overlap

@yunaru3643

2 ай бұрын

​@@Dani_sister4peaceas a catholic, this is the first time i've heard anyone ever said that islam is similar to catholics. How do you make that assertion?

@myspleenisbursting4825

2 ай бұрын

​@@yunaru3643yeah, I'm a Muslim interested to convert into Catholicism and I don't see any similarities beyond fasting for a month and the veneration of Mary. even then, it doesn't come close to how catholics venerate her. muslims used to pray to saints too, but wahabbis killed that practiced so we don't do it

That Canadian-American flag with the tag "Howdy, Hosers!"😂😂😂😂 as a fellow Canadian I approve the message

@MarsJenkar

2 ай бұрын

As an American, I had a hearty laugh as well. The US and Canada are kind of the siblings or cousins that rib each other from time to time, but we generally have each other's backs when things get really bad.

@p12423073

2 ай бұрын

There is an anime that has all yhe countries as people. Ive only seen a few episodes, but Canada, USA, and Englands interactions are highlarious.

@Carpediem357

2 ай бұрын

@@p12423073 I think I've heard of it. Is it similar to the countryballs that's been gaining popularity??

@CharlotteIssyvoo

2 ай бұрын

@@MarsJenkar I'll be honest: Canadians don't feel as jocular about the relationship. There's a lot of anti-American sentiment up here.

@antoinecloutier4450

2 ай бұрын

@@CharlotteIssyvoo Anti ''American politics'' sentiment would be more precise. But politic is going to shit in here too. I'd say there is friendly banter on the net... (you McDo eating cowboys vs us maple syrup drinking moose riders)

Now we need a Iron Age city dweller meme

@UsefulCharts

2 ай бұрын

Yes please.

@theshenpartei

2 ай бұрын

@@UsefulChartsawesome

@huntertrum3658

2 ай бұрын

friendship ended with Uruk, now Assur is my best friend

@bikkiikun

2 ай бұрын

Let's call them Ferro-Bougeoisie, or Iron Yuppies, or Sidero-Hipsters (that would explain the beards).

@herpderptheshep

2 ай бұрын

DUDE i just LOVE the hustle and bustle of ramparted Uruk, it’s so DYNAMIC and makes me feel like i’m in one of my favourite EPIC POEMS. you should totally come on down to my dwellingplace, it’s got EXPOSED MASONRY OF KILN-FIRED BRICK walls and everything, we can crack open a nice beer fit for a king or seven and get crazy watching some lyre-maids [The rest of the tablet is damaged beyond recognition]

My heart absolutely breaking for what they did to my boy documentary hypothesis 😭

@fcsuper

2 ай бұрын

It's still true, just that it's so convoluted, there's no point showing the breakdown. We still have 2 stories of Noah's flood crammed together as one telling. We still have two separate creation myths at the start of the bible.

@TheGreatAgnostic

2 ай бұрын

I think that would have been worth his clarifying, it almost sounded as though he didn't think that was the case to me

@benniepatton6544

2 ай бұрын

@@fcsuper My understanding is the time lines for the two Jesus birth stories don't exactly align which is no surprise. Different writers who almost certainly did not know each other. Remember, it is the message, not the minor details, that matter.

@therongjr

2 ай бұрын

​@@benniepatton6544The Documentary Hypothesis with the JEPD sources pertains to the Old Testament, not the New Testament.

@gagecole4913

2 ай бұрын

The what.

Is it possible that the story of Joseph in Egypt (the famine, the other sons of Israel coming to Egypt to get food, etc) is a faint echo of the Bronze Age collapse?

@SAOS451316

2 ай бұрын

It's more than possible; it's likely. That story takes place some decades before the Exodus story which could be a narrative decision and both are inspired by the same events. The Collapse is heavily tied to the eruption of Thera which was an extremely powerful volcanic event (potentially the loudest sound ever heard by human ears, fun fact). It alone would have caused every one of the plagues for at least a few hundred kilometers of lower Egypt. It did also cause volcanic winter and that tracks with several years of bad harvest. The sea people may be the remnants of the Minoans as well as general hungry pirates.

@ianhomerpura8937

2 ай бұрын

Same case with the book of Judges, which some Bible scholars posit to have happened around up to 1200 BC

@Zimisce85

2 ай бұрын

I always imagined it echoes the second intermediate period, during the Hyksos rule: Semitic pharaohs allowing other Semitic tribes to settle into Egypt in order to have more loyal subjects , with the possibility for foreigners to quickly climb the social ladder. And then, after the return of a local dynasty, bad times for those same minorities.

@nicholassilverio2227

2 ай бұрын

​@@SAOS451316 Thera volcano? Where is that located? Or maybe you are referring to the Lake Toba volcano in Indonesia. Or the Tambora volcano in Indonesia. 🙏

@loganleutwyler

2 ай бұрын

​@@nicholassilverio2227 The Thera eruption that happened on the island of Santorini in the Aegean Sea in 1600 BC.

As a Christian living in the modern era, that also subscribed to scholarly disciplines like astrophysics, history and evolution, I appreciate your ability to step back from the beautiful scriptures and analyze it from a scholarly and historical point of view. People like me are torn between the teachings of the Bible, which we cherish and try to live by, and the historical and archeological things we learn in school or through independent research. I consider myself a scholarly individual and at times get into casual debates with friends about history and stuff like that and when an atheist friend tries to expose the Bible as fictional lore, I find myself straddling the two positions you have described in this video and some of your other ones about the Bible, that it is neither completely factual nor completely fiction, but a bit of both. I recently bought a few of your posters and the world history book. Beautiful literature for a history buff like me, and can't wait to enjoy it 😇

@stephengray1344

2 ай бұрын

You might want to explore some of the conservative scholarship that leans towards the factual end of things. On KZread the obvious places to start are the Ancient Egypt and the Bible channel and the various videos of the late Michael Heiser's talks on a variety of issues. In terms of things to read, the best starting place on the Old Testament would be Kenneth Kitchen's "On the Reliability of the Old Testament", which gives a good overview of how a scholar can come to the conclusion that the books of the Old Testament are reasonably reliable historical sources.

@Iskandar75

2 ай бұрын

If you believe the scriptures aren’t true, are you even a Christian? I think you are torn because you don’t commit fully to God’s word. Compromising is and will always be source of terrible anxiety. We cannot serve two masters. 2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

@reubenpilli6549

2 ай бұрын

@@stephengray1344 I checked out the "Ancient Egypt and the Bible" Channel. I find it more to do with dogma than scholarship.

@mylist4039

2 ай бұрын

​@@Iskandar75 A true Christian is one who does not take the Bible literally, but take its message seriously! The message of love, forgiveness and compassion. One the other hand, a fake Christian takes the Bible as literal word of God ( i.e. dictated by God) and support death penalty, torture, war, guns and weapons.. and even genocide. All in the name of God!. One sees them all over the US.

@mylist4039

2 ай бұрын

@@stephengray1344 I checked out a few videos on the "Ancient Egypt and the Bible" channel. I find it is more to do with dogma than true scholarship.

This channel is exactly the kind of biblical study I've been wanting for a while. I'm super agnostic but I find the history and mythologies of religions super interesting and it's so cool to see how it all ties together and I like how you also point out what the leading theories are, noting it's not all perfectly known.

The funny thing about them being Iron Age City Dwellers is that they hated the city lol. There is a definite dislike of city life when reading stories like Sodom and Gomorrah, the Garden of Eden, etc. that goes further than the loss of innocence we see in Enkidu. Honestly, it was written by Iron Age Hipsters and Hippies in Their "Zen" Phase.

@AnaIvanovic4ever

2 ай бұрын

Looking back to a mythical golden age when life was simple and natural seems to be almost as old as humanity itself.

@xaayer

2 ай бұрын

​@@AnaIvanovic4ever"back in my day"

@matthiasnagorski8411

2 ай бұрын

Seems like religious hierarchies hate places of cultural diversity. From, like, the dawn of time.

@gothicfan52

2 ай бұрын

Because cities until the 20th century where filthier and more disease ridden than the countryside, more people died in cities than were born there and the population had to be supplemented by people from the country moving there Still today, cities while much safer than in the past or often more dangerous than areas outside of them

@parthasarathipanda4571

2 ай бұрын

I imagine they were the 'make judah great again' folks...

Conclusion: Matt hopes Canada will conquer the US some day.

@Kamarovsky_KCM

2 ай бұрын

Don't we all?

@UsefulCharts

2 ай бұрын

These days, it seems more likely that the US will destroy itself!

@davidc1878

2 ай бұрын

@@UsefulCharts As a fellow Canadian, I don't think we can be very smug about what's going on in the US as many of those same forces are at work here and... holy moly... our federal government and bureaucracy are currently headed in that same direction. BTW, I loved the 'Howdy Hosers' joke. :)

@UsefulCharts

2 ай бұрын

@davidc1878 Sadly, you're right.

@ems4884

2 ай бұрын

​​@@davidc1878it's obviously totally unrealistic, but if Canada did suddenly annex itself to the US under the current US Constitution, it would marginalize the crazy wing of the American right in a heartbeat. Ok. So Alberta might team up with Alabama. And Quebec would probably go completely rogue. But Ontario alone would change everything. It Canada annexed the US under your constitutional system, it would take a couple decades for GOP voters to even begin to understand how the parliamentary system works ... and how to pronounce Nunavut and where PEI is.

Every time I take a new religion/archeology class you manage to upload a video discussing that weeks topic. Absolutely crazy. Today my biblical archeology class did an exercise where the Men of Gad had to negotiate with the conflicting Moab, Israel, and Assyria. Two days earlier we discussed the documentary hypothesis as well as the deuteronomistic books

This is not only an examination of the story of the concept of the 12 tribes of Israel, but also a summary of the history of the Jewish people from ancient times as well as the Bronze Age (and its collapse), plus the Iron Age for good measure. All in around 32 minutes, well done.

@boffo63

2 ай бұрын

It did not seem like 32 minutes tbh. I could have had another hour and been enrapted.

@HowlingWo1f

2 ай бұрын

No offense, but his hypothesis of our history of the Jewish nation is just as accurate as summers the fairytales he states are in the Bible. The Bible of thousands of years ago is quite a bit more accurate than researches Coming up with assumptions today.

@guydreamr

2 ай бұрын

@@HowlingWo1f No offense, but what he actually he said was that the stories in the Bible aren't fairytales but rather a mix of historical truth and myth. If you want to believe that *all* the stories narrated in the Bible are historically accurate based on faith, that's fine. But if you expect to persuade those of us who are more skeptical that *everything* the Bible says is historically factual, you're going to need to provide something more, like independent evidence.

@SCALESOFF

Ай бұрын

He’s Coming Soon When Jesus comes, the rapture question will be clarified, the church will be unified, the saints will be glorified and the sinners will be horrified. When Jesus comes, the devil will be stultified, the nation of Israel will be vivified, the sonship will be satisfied and the entire Bible will be verified. If you think the coming of Jesus is a probability or a possibility, you missed it. The coming of Jesus is inevitability. Acts 2:36-38; 4:10-12; Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 3:17 KJV

@SCALESOFF

Ай бұрын

He’s Coming Soon When Jesus comes, the rapture question will be clarified, the church will be unified, the saints will be glorified and the sinners will be horrified. When Jesus comes, the devil will be stultified, the nation of Israel will be vivified, the sonship will be satisfied and the entire Bible will be verified. If you think the coming of Jesus is a probability or a possibility, you missed it. The coming of Jesus is inevitability. Acts 2:36-38; 4:10-12; Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 3:17 KJV

This video and this channel in general answer so many questions I had as a kid that no one ever bothered to answer in church

@docalexander2853

2 ай бұрын

HaHa

@user-kp3ks7dk5h

2 ай бұрын

Right?? Like when he pointed out that Judah is unusually favored when Joseph was Jacob’s fave. I very much remember younger me thinking the same thing and now I finally have an answer

@tomschmidt381

2 ай бұрын

Agree, it is nice getting the Cliffs Notes version of several thousand years of history backed up what what scholars have managed to find in the archeological and written records. One item I had not heard before is that some of the Sea People became a component of early Jewish society rather then just one of the causes of the 1177BC collapse.

@WLPeaceJr

2 ай бұрын

"no one answered" = you didn't like their answers 😂😂😂

@KS-mc5ry

2 ай бұрын

@@user-kp3ks7dk5h The reason why Judah was “unusually favored” over Joseph in Jacob’s blessing is because Christ came from the line of Judah, not from the line of Joseph. Throughout the Bible there’s a concept where the fathers would bless their sons (often prophetically) and many times the blessing is something unexpected. Although Jacob may have desired to bless Joseph and Benjamin over the other tribes (because he favored their mother Rachel), he couldn’t help but prophetically bless Judah over those tribes, because this was the tribe that would bring forth Christ, the Messiah. Therefore, the blessing needed to be greater. The real question here is- why would God choose Jesus to come from the tribe of Judah over the tribe of Joseph? My theory is that Jacob supposedly went against God’s will in choosing Rachel. He was provided Leah first and he should have accepted Leah, but instead he chose to work for 7 more years to earn Rachel. Only bad things came from Rachel: the tribe of Joseph-which eventually ended up bringing everyone to Egypt where they were enslaved for hundreds of years and the tribe of Benjamin- which produced both Sauls (Saul son of Kish who persecuted David- who was a Christ-like figure, and Saul of Tarsus who persecuted Christians before becoming Apostle Paul). Thus, the favoring of Judah over Joseph and Benjamin becomes much clearer. God would obviously favor the lineage that He chose to bring the Messiah, not the one originating in deceit. It’s a shame the people you asked in church couldn’t provide a good answer for you honestly

Israel means” Struggled/Wrestled with God” in Genesis Jacob fought against an Angel who was representing God and in the end God blessed Jacob by changing his name to Israel and saying that he shall make him a mighty nation

@booblam6919

Ай бұрын

1. What was Reuben calling........ 2. What was Simeon calling....... 3.what was Levi calling........ 4. What was Judah calling...... 5. What was Issachar calling..... 6. What was Zebulun calling..... 7. What was Dan calling...... 8. What was Gad calling...... 9. What was Asher calling..... 10. What was Napthali calling.... 11. What was Joseph calling...... 12. What was Benjamin calling...... Each tribe has a specific calling from GOD.....calling such as sonship....watchman...and high priest.

@humbirdms2784

Ай бұрын

That is correct

@yakov95000

20 күн бұрын

Just wanted to mention there is no "angel" in the Hebrew text of that event,in the original text it says Jacob fought off Shadowy aggressive man and after that "man" gave him blessing and his name "Israel"(he who fought/struggled with God).

Amazing video! I had suggested such a video a while back and its great to see it come to life. One thing about the Shasu (nomads) which is fascinating is how that the Egyptian mentioned the names of these tribes, and it seems they are referring to both Rueben and Yaweh in their inscriptions. From wiki: "In 13th century BCE copies of the column inscriptions ordered by Seti I or by Ramesses II at Amarah-West, six groups of Shasu are mentioned: the Shasu of S'rr, the Shasu of Rbn, the Shasu of Sm't, the Shasu of Wrbr, the Shasu of Yhw, and the Shasu of Pysps."

Yes I've been waiting for this video. This is a topic I actually got inspired to investigate through this channel, in which I found very interesting things that go back to Egypt and Mesopotamian folklore. I know I'm about to learn much more while watching this, thank you Dr. Baker!

Love your stuff. Wish I could join full time but here is a quick thanks. I do have some of Useful Charts physical chart! Thanks!

Matt you are really the best to explain all these details. Amazing work here.

Isaac always read to be as being inserted as connective tissue in the stories of Abraham and Jacob since he has little to no story of his own but plays a major supportive role as the son of the former and father of the latter.

@xtrct7303

2 ай бұрын

Your comment is interesting, because as a Muslim, it’s customary in our religion to believe that The Prophet Muhammad PBUH is descended from Isaac

@Emjazzuli

2 ай бұрын

​​@@xtrct7303Ismail do you mean?

@gumby2ms

2 ай бұрын

@@xtrct7303 interesting. since ancient christians or non-orthodox jews who became christians, and as well later before christianities formality set in became muslims, they followed sentiment of skism from the teaching of the orthodox. maybe then issac was the true superior prophet for christians and muslim orginate tribes, or at the very least muslim tribes, thus the direction of prophets bloodline?

@sadik5453

2 ай бұрын

@@xtrct7303ismail you mean

@shainazion4073

2 ай бұрын

​@@xtrct7303Muslims believe he was a descendant of Ishmael, not Isaac.

Super interesting as always! Thank you.

The US/Canada analogy is a really good explanatory tool! Thanks for another great video!

A complicated topic explained so simply and beautifully, thanks so much Matt!

Could not possibly get bored of these videos, keep on with this amazing work on religion

Your videos are very educational. And it is an absolute pleasure to watch, because this clear and calm presentation is always beautifully made. And you are so articulate, it is very nice to listen to your words, while enjoying the presentation. The best way for me to learn is visual content. And your content so well structured. Thank you for all your work!! All the best to you from 🇩🇪

Thanks for expanding on this. I've been interested in learning more ever since you mentioned the new hypothesis in earlier videos.

The problem with low density population being the basis of dismissing the unified monarchy comes from Gobekli Tepe. A large, centralized set of structures in the middle of pre-agricultural society seems to have been shown possible.

@torrawel

2 ай бұрын

Yet it's not that large and there's no proof of a kingdom there.

@AndrewFullerton

2 ай бұрын

We know that Israel was a minor regional power and that the major powers rarely felt the need to mention Judah. We know that Israel had commerce, cultural interchange, and cities, while Judah was comparatively poor and sparsely populated. When we reconcile this with the claim that Jerusalem -- which was hardly more than a fortified town at the time -- was the cultural and political centre of the region it's hard to parse it as anything but over-compensation, especially since they are the only ones claiming it. If I told you that I was the coolest guy in my high school, super athletic, handsome, and popular -- and totally went to prom with the three hottest girls in school instead of just staying home -- would you believe me? Spoiler alert, I have a school photo where my glasses are literally taped together.

@KevinWarburton-tv2iy

2 ай бұрын

It was a Kingdom. The Old Testament has references to many Petty Kings. If you controlled a walled settlement and nearby villages/farmlands you were a King. In fact when the Egyptian Emigrants entered Canaan they were welcomed by Melkhezedek, The Priest-King of Jerusalem. The Kingdoms in these early days were basically just City-States.

Another excellent video from Mr Baker!

I just LOVE the way you make your videos, whether it's the charts or the facts your present.

Great video, I'm just so oddly fascinated by everything related to the Documentary hypothesis. Thank you for the new book recommendation too.

@Catholic_KnightII

2 ай бұрын

Juden

@Achill101

2 ай бұрын

​@@Catholic_KnightII???

@Catholic_KnightII

2 ай бұрын

@@Achill101 don’t worry

@Achill101

2 ай бұрын

@@Catholic_KnightII - I just worry if an apparent fellow Catholic makes cryptic comments that could be antisemitic.

Thank you UsefulCharts for getting me addicted to Biblical history and criticism! 😁

I really wanted to see some videos that present the academic consensus on the bible, but dan Mcclelan does short form stuff that never really explains the consensus view of a whole part of the bible or any singular story, so I love this new series you're making here plus the visuals are amazing

@benniepatton6544

2 ай бұрын

Love him. He smacks the crap out of people who think they can read a few articles and become experts. Many just want to have KZread sites and make money.

I really like how clear your maps are on this!

Thanks for yet another amazing video Matt. I have seriously learned more history from you than any other YT channel (and I subscribe to a ton of them)

Bravo! Thank you for going through this quite multi-faceted and unfortunately obscure scholarship and preparing it for laypeople to understand. I can imagine it takes hours to get this done in such simple, coherent way. And doing it while staying aware of religious sensibilities. Always a blast to listen to you Matt!

Finally. Thank you so much!

Another great video, i bought your new and even bought my Christian friend a copy because he wants to study Christianity more academically

I heard the Sea People Dan theory on Dragons in Genesis. I take all their info with a grain of salt, so glad to hear the theory is acknowledged by others.

Very interesting! I had heard of the Phillistine/Peleset connection before, but hadn't heard of the Dan/Danaan connection. Makes a lot of sense!

@sophiawilson8696

2 ай бұрын

Philistines were absorb the by Babylonians during the Captivity.

Jacob is an old enough figure that he lived in the Bronze Age. The Sea Peoples helped destroy what we know of him. We can't prove it but we also can't disprove it. We can't say Jacob never existed because it's very possible that these origins all had a common ancestor. In fact the Family Trees series proves that there must have been a common ancestor. Jacob is simply the name they know him by.

As always your videos are NEXT level! I am listening to ours of scholars every day but everything just clicks when I watch your videos

Qué video tan interesante ❤ No conocía nada sobre los análisis académicos sobre este tema. Great video!!

The number 12 may not have been random, but may also have reflected the 12 constellations of the zodiac, of which mosaics have been found in many synagogues from antiquity. That tradition may also have been followed by Jesus described as having 12 disciples.

@robertmauck4975

2 ай бұрын

My guess is that the need to have it be 12 stems from Babylonian influences. The Babylonians loved anything in sets of 12 or 60 (5×12), and if what he described in the video is correct, the final editing happened during our just after they were in Babylonia. In a related note, the concept of 12 zodiac signs, as well as 12 hours for both day and night, the idea of 360 (60×60) degrees in a circle also have their roots in the Babylonian numerical system

@Ovadyah12

2 ай бұрын

@@robertmauck4975 Shnayim-Eser (שְׁנֵים-עָשָׂר or יב / Twelve) “It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Revelation 21:12) The number 12, which is one of the numbers symbolizing perfection, is unmistakably important in Scripture. It appears throughout the Tanakh (Old Covenant) and the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant). In Judaism, this number symbolizes totality, wholeness, and the completion of God’s purpose. It is considered the number of governmental perfection as it symbolizes God’s power and authority. The number 12 is also linked to the concept of time; for example, the ancient Israelites marked 12 lunar cycles representing the 12 lunar months of the year. They divided the day and the night into 12-hour periods.

@luiteoosting4580

2 ай бұрын

Thought the 360 was symbolic for the days in a year. It makes a day (dia) about a degree. Also aren't the twelve constellations meant to give symbol to the twelve moons (months) we have on a yearly basis ?

@deanfry879

Ай бұрын

@@robertmauck4975 360 - divisible by every single digit number except seven; they could likely count that high on their fingers. (by the way 60 x 60 = 3600)

Hi Matt Im really enjoying your channel. Its nice to learn new things about the origion of my culture ( im a secular jew, from israel) . But i wanted to add somthing about the Kingdom of Judah and united kingdom. Lately, Professor Yosef Garfinkel discoverd in Khirbet Qeiyafa and old fortress from 1020-980 bc, that perhaps was an old judea fortress from the time of king David- the Elah Fortess. It was discovered that were no pork bones, and a figure was found that perhaps was a replica of the old tample. The finding are still debatable, but i think its worth noting, becuse it seemed that the kingdom of jueda existed much earlyer.

@DneilB007

2 ай бұрын

There are some threads of the history that Matt describes in his video that can be seen in the Biblical narrative. Saul is, after all, a Benjaminite, and does stand as a hypothetical “first king” of the northern confederacy. Aside from two stories (Goliath and David the Harpist of King Saul), David is mostly a tribal leader of Judah, who is at war with Israel and is often aligned with the Philistines. After Saul’s death, his son Ish-Baal succeeds him as king of Israel, and David is not king of a united monarchy until after Ish-Baal’s death. David is king of Israel long enough to take the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem, after which he is constantly fighting with “rebels” who control the north. When David dies and Solomon is anointed king, he is opposed by Jeroboam, the leader of the north, who Solomon forces into exile but later returns to take up the throne of Israel. So, even with a strict reading of the Bible-accepting the political facts on their face but not accepting their interpretation of the facts-there’s a strong case for Israel always having been a separate entity from Judah, and that, except for a brief interlude of maybe 20 years under Solomon, there really wasn’t a truly united monarchy between Judah and Israel.

Thank you so much for the list of references. I just finished reading The Bible Unearthed, and I found it fascinating, but I knew it was 22 years old and would most likely have out of date information. Now I can read some more modern books with updated research and ideas.

Omg this is epic! I love the scholarship behind this topic Matt!

@jacoblopriore1510

2 ай бұрын

Matt are you aware of russel gmirkins platonic Torah theory?

I think of the Tanakh’s relationship to the Bronze Age very similarly to Greek stories like the Trojan War Cycle: a cultural memory of the pre-collapse world, blended with supernatural religious elements to create a universal story about the world

Thank you, Dr. Baker!

This is absolutely fascinating! Great work on this presentation. It’s these historical mysteries that intrigue me the most.

So far, one of the most interesting works you’ve given us. Thank you so much! JE bless you!

There is something I find strange. If the Judahites made up the birth order to insert themselves into Israelite history, why would they claim to have the same mother as Issachar and Zebulun, while still keeping some distance?

@mylifeforthelord5535

2 ай бұрын

It doesn't make sense

@popandy2956

Ай бұрын

Judah doesn't get a good image in much of the Hebrew bible suggesting this 'spin' is exagerrated.

I have to disagree with this "... versus what REALLY happened" approach when talking about events from so long ago, because it gives a false air of certainty while in fact most of it is highly speculative. Sources are extremely rare from that time period, and many of what has been written is lost. Therefore me might only make some inferences and assumptions from what little remains. It's not "what REALLY happened", it's rather "what we can infer from non-religious sources". Otherwise we would be falling into a trap many agenda-driven atheists do, going through the Bible, saying ok, this person is referenced in other sources so he existed, hm, this one too, and this other one too... oh wait, I've finally found someone from the Bible who is not referenced in other sources, so this is a proof that no person with such a name could ever have existed, instead of just saying we don't have other sources (maybe because it was so long ago that they did not survive to the present day)

Good stuff my brother - nice that there are people out there who still has that hunger for knowledge.

Hi, I just watched your video and it was very interesting to me. Now I have to watch your other videos.

Wow, fascinating!! Thanks so much for the breakdown! Question: You said initially that the "not really 12 tribes" hypothesis is a newly put forward theory, but my impression from your presentation was that it is actually the accurate truth of the matter. Is that your conviction or was I not paying attention enough? Regardless of the answer, I highly recommend implementing persistent visual indicators of when you are not presenting established fact, like when delving into thought experiments or exploring a hypothesis. Think of someone skipping through your video to see whether your content is worthwhile and just sees the part on the Americans becoming Canadians, or just someone who didn't pay attention for a moment exactly when you qualified the following part as exploration of a hypothesis. To be conctete, I'd put the clichee vignette-blur for thought experiments and I'd use the chapter-function from youtube, as well as maybe dedicate some part of the screen (which can shift around if necessary) for some sort of title of each part, like "what we know so far", "The not-12-tribes-hypothesis". Just a suggestion. Anyways, I love your content! Can't wait for the next video!

@l4nd3r

2 ай бұрын

His point is that from the historical POV, there likely weren't 12 original tribes as many of them had outside origin and their mythos were mostly made up to seem that they were always there.

This is quite interesting and I thank you. Your presentation is clear and concise. Without being at all argumentative, however, I would like to clarify a parenthetical point. As a life-long atheist, I want to make it clear that neither I, nor any other atheist I have ever discussed the matter with, would assert that the Bible is devoid of history. Of course, we do not believe the parts that involve events we see as supernatural, but there was obviously a coherent group of people who had a history that they remembered and incorporated into their many writings. Being religious, they viewed their history through a lens that injected the influence of a god that they viewed as being intimately engaged with their lives, but I see that as an overlay that can sometimes be rendered transparent. Beneath it is a history that is accessible to varying degrees. The writings we now have were also influenced by the same kind of selection that affects all literature. Some stories are more memorable or hold more appeal than others. To armies clashing with one of them winning isn't so memorable. But the story of David and Goliath is. It has the literary appeal afforded by irony. It provides a memorable allegory. The little guy can, indeed, be triumphant. So that story is told and survives and eventually becomes the historic view of the event whether it's actually true or not. Between the theological lens and the literary selection, the people ended up with a narrative that made sense to them and justified the actions their forefathers took to mold their nation. The narrative is often fanciful, self-serving and (to me) not believable, but it was not invented out of whole cloth. Its roots lie in the very real history that real people experienced. Thank you again.

Love this. Love this. Love this. Can’t get enough maps to help put this all in context.

Awesome video, very informative.

There’s a lot of stuff I feel l gotta fact check, so I’m just gonna thread some comments in one at a time: Firstly, talking about the secular version as the “real” version seems… odd since the secular story is always changing. I haven’t seen the end yet, so I’m interested in if you expand on that later.

@gianni206

2 ай бұрын

Secondly, the version of the “biblical” account of events seems to be the Young Earth one. Though it is the traditionally held belief, it ignores the Hebrew gematria used across the Bible, so I’m unsure why you dated it that way. I do not take this video personally, but so far it seems a bit concerning. I love a lot of your work, so this seems to run counter to everything else. If you bring up any good points, I’ll definitely make note of those.

@gianni206

2 ай бұрын

Thirdly, Egyptian rule of Canaan was nothing like medieval/modern rule of colonies. The Egyptians took canaanite city-states as their vassals. They were easy to avoid. There are also documentaries that showcase how the story of the exodus has no anachronisms to it, and perfectly fits within the timeframe of the early Ramesside Period. That is a lot to demand out of a story told generations later. And yet it tells it, with details such as Egyptian birthing stools and tube-shaped baskets, things that weren’t prominent in Iron Age Israel.

@gianni206

2 ай бұрын

4th, I’m unsure how the same scribes have to be the definitive authors of both Deuteronomy and it’s succeeding books. The only evidence for this is that they share the same grammatical style. Is there anything else proving that? There’s also evidence that tribal people have accurate cultural memories lasting for many centuries. I know we’re only focusing on archeology today, and that is respectable. But ignoring linguistics and cultural memory then saying this is all the “real” history of the people? I do not understand this claim.

@gianni206

2 ай бұрын

A P source that’s separate from J makes sense. I understand post-exilic ideas are used in some of the passages. But why is D also separate from J? A lot of the “D” ideas could’ve easily existed in the Bronze Age.

@gianni206

2 ай бұрын

20:02 it’s a little odd that the criteria for this division isn’t given. I read a couple books on what’s consider pre-exilic vs post-exilic, and some of it seems to be just an accusation of anachronisms? If that’s true then how’s that fair?

Love the channel. This is, perhaps, one of my favourite videos. I am not a theological scholar but I found The Bible Unearthed fascinating. Have you had any academic dialogue with Prof. Finkelstein? The archaeology, history and theological history of The Levant is complicated and mesmerising. The transition from the Bronze Age collapse through to the Iron Age is such a dynamic, short but very important period in such a geographically small area that it is a pity some/much of its evidence has been lost in tragedy of modern conflict given how influential it has been on western identity for the last 2500 yrs. Keep producing these amazing vids.

❤Loved this video so much. Specifically, loved the historical perspective. Thanks Matt.🙂

now i cant wait for part 2 of this series. such great indepth knowlage. wish i had this man as a teacher back in my school days.

A pastor we had years ago stated the Old Testament was intended to be a faith history, not a literal history. He knew Greek and Hebrew, and taught The Old Testament. Essentially, the Old Testament gives them a history and religion that holds them together. I like it.

@m.s.6586

2 ай бұрын

You’re old pastor may have known Hebrew but he was very obviously not Jewish or knew anything about Jewish people. Because any Jewish person will tell you the Torah it Tenech (which are the correct term to use - to not erase the fact this is first and foremost a JEWISH book that was appropriated by Christians) is both- it is both a history book on how the Jewish people came to be as a nation, it is a culture book where we celebrate the land of Israel and lastly also a religious book where our Mitzvahs are written down to follow.

@skwarubwa7083

2 ай бұрын

And did he stop there? The New Testament is not in any way history, but is totally religious propaganda. The four Gospels are certainly not history (nor is Acts). There is no clear, convincing and objective evidence that Jesus was a real person. The remaining books of the NT are strictly religious.

@schnitzelsemmel

2 ай бұрын

I like to view it as the mythological or legendary - I prefer to call it "literary" (derived from literature, not from literalness) - account of the history of the Jewish people (until 2nd temple Judaism) l that serves to create a shared cultural identity, which has been interwoven with so called "narrated theology", i.e. a literary form of faith-related truths and prescriptions

@omarlittle-hales8237

2 ай бұрын

SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. 1. The First Narcissist, Was Satan [The Accursed One], When He Refused To Bow Down To Adam. As He Claimed He Was Made Of Energy [Jinn With Free Will, Worked Amongst The Angels], Whilst Adam, Is Made From The Earth Mud. He Claimed He Was Greater In Creation Than Adam. Angels Are Made From Light, With No Free Will, They Cannot Disobey God. 2. The Second Narcissist Was Cain, Whom Killed His Own Brother Abel, Out Of His Jealousy. Whom Was Forced To Wonder The Earth, Alone.

@omarlittle-hales8237

2 ай бұрын

SALaM, SHLAMa, SHLOMo, SHALoM, NAMASTe, PEACe. 1. Both Mother Teresa & Gandhi, Had Their Dark Sides, They Most Probably Dark Empaths. 2. The Dark Empath personality has high levels of Narcissism, Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, Dark Triad, and Cognitive Empathy, With superficial Attractive Charm. 3. The Gospel Verses State One God, Thus All The Paul Verses, Added The Trinity In 325AD. 4. The Vedas Are Monotheistic, But The Guru Books Are Polytheistic, Which Were Added Later Too. 5. Original Christianity And Hinduism Were Both Purely Monotheistic, But Later Both Added The Trinity, Into Their Scriptures, Along With Zoroastrianism And Buddhists.

“Hey boss, going on my lunch break. I’ll be back in 32:27”

@fdabelstein

2 ай бұрын

Are you suggesting that UsefulCharts change name to Religion for Lunch?

Watched the whole thing. Loved it!

Great discussion! Two interesting footnotes from the New Testament: Luke 2:36 mentions Anna, a prophetess, of the tribe of Aser (Asher). Revelation 7 has a list of the twelve tribes of Israel, but for some unknown reason excludes Dan, while adding Manasseh.

Matt, your scholarship and presentation is absolutely brilliant. You've answered many questions I've had for years, and I thank you.

Ooh. A new video. Before watching, I think I recall the tribes being understood as references it bronze age peoples in the Near East. A kind of allegory, as it were... But what have religious studies scholars turned up lately ... Let's have a listen!

Heyy Matt been following your channel for a long time love the in depth research on every single video. I would suggest to make a video on Mazdayasna or Zoroastrianism.

not always fun+entertainment+jackassing i look for when i am on internet BUT also upgrades with my own personal knowing of everything is what i wanted to watch like this channel brings, thank you sirs!

I’m imagining a future where people debate the number of states, cause of all the data that says 50, but when counted in lists it clearly shows 52 cause Canada and Quebec at one point edited all the lists but couldn’t change all the 50 star flags lol

What a brilliant, concise overview. Thank you so much!

fascinating video. Great info. I love the US-Canada comparison. That makes lots of sense. Keep up the great work.

I would definitely like to know more about the lost tribes and such. great video, as always

Don't agree that bronze age collapse is not visible in the bible. The philistines arrived in Israël just after the israelites settled in Kanaän (after the exodus). It's mentioned in the bible that only the kanaanites had iron weapons and therefore were superior. Later during the time of David, the israelites had iron weapons (and plows etc) which helped them to be strong in the surrounding lands. We know that Egypt was ruled by a different dynasty as usual (semite people, hyksos /habiru that were kind of related to the origins of the israelites. This was after 1450 BCE. You also mention that Habiru might be related to the name hebrew. Could be, and the bible mentions Heber too. Like with the term Semites, Heber /Habiru / Hebrews are related to each other but have similar origin. Just as the Edomites (Esau) , Moabites and Ammon (from Lot, nephew of Abraham).

The 12 Tribes are descendants of Jacob 10 of them were his sons and Joseph’s was split into two the Tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh

Rom 3:3 - For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged

@malato43

21 күн бұрын

Finally someone with some wisdom. Thank you

A presentation worthy of the men and institutions that teach it.

I'm a devout atheist but I love the content.

I think this video creates the need for an explainer on why/how both Islam and Judaism/Christianity hold Abraham in high esteem… and how the whole Jacob/Esau tradition evolved/fits in the both religious narratives.

This is great! Learned a lot and it was easy to comprehend each step of the way.

Nice job Matt.

Thank you for yet another amazing video! Learning about Abrahamic religions objectively like this has really helped in healing my personal and generational trauma related to the idea of these religions and such. I gave up trying to understand my families obsession and literal interpretations from their Southern Baptist views... It left me really angry and they would guilt and shame me as well. But knowing there is more to the story (pun intended) and that academia and archeology has better explanations about the whole issue - makes me feel a bit more... secure? Like that the Bible isn't black and white but nuanced, multifaceted, flawed, and more just like the humans that wrote it - makes it feel more like actually literature than the "because God" reason. I'm now not religious at all, though I do follow some Shinto lifestyle teachings for inner peace and nature worship which calms me, and as that is more related to my Asian heritage; I feel a lot more interest in the stories/myths leading up to and around these periods of time, and how people wove the myths into historical accounts by their understanding. It's fascinating. Like, I didn't realize that Samson was possibly related to the stories of Hercules! But again thank you ^_^

@m.s.6586

2 ай бұрын

Judaism isn’t a religion Jews are an ethnic group first and foremost, our religion is merely one facet of who we are. There is no “Abrahamic religion” there is Judaism and the appropriation of jewish history and culture by non Jews.

@Koutouhara

2 ай бұрын

@@m.s.6586 If you're going to be asinine in someone else's comments, that clearly wasn't meant for you either; at least don't spout inaccuracies. Judaism is both a religion and, for some, an ethnic group - as there are Jewish people aren't ethnic Jews but rather converts to the religion but still Jewish. Matt from this video is one such person. He's Jewish even if he is not ethically Jewish. I don't accept 'No True Scotsman' fallacies here. And there are, in fact, many Abrahamic Religions recognized by scholars - as their traditions have historically been linked back to the same origin of believing in the God of Abraham and consider Abraham the first prophet. Any faith that falls under that criteria, that believes in that version of God, is Abrahamic; doesn't matter their origin, or how they're different - they believe in the same God. Also, Christianity was started as a sect of Judaism BY Jews. They didn't "appropriate" anything from their own history. Your words hold no credit to historical and academic facts. Call me pedantic or whatever but I'm not believing anything you have to say over actual scholars like Matt.

@Achill101

2 ай бұрын

​@@Koutouhara - well replied.

@Koutouhara

2 ай бұрын

@@esthercom5672 What are you even talking about about? We did evolve, just as everything on the planet has, for millions of years and we are still considered as sub-group of primates called Great Apes by current scientific understanding. Whilst the common ancestor of our closest cousins, the chimpanzee, was only alive 6 to 8 million years ago before we diverged from it, doesn't change the fact that it was a common ancestor. I'm not listening to creationist conspiracy theorists or Bible literalists over scientists either! I left a traumatic religious group - I'm not going to "back the Bible" because it's "best", I'm not going to "buy a chronological Bible" whatever that is; I've read through the Bible enough when I was forced to. I can follow scientific discoveries in the archeological record, from reputable scholars like Matt that tie it to literature with the understanding that myth, legend, and some historical things are bound to be mixed together and can explain the actual context of what was happening during that period from their professional research and opinion. It's only from their diligence for scholarly research and archeological references that I can even stomach the topics discussed. I appreciate that Matt is up front about the things they don't have good references for and that some of it in the earliest eras were more mythology by scholars understanding anyway. I don't feel like I'm being pressured to believe past traumatic things or proselytized too in any way. It's objective.

Really appreciate the way you describe things, but calling it "REAL" origin is very unscientific. You can only hypothesise, but not prove it.

Really well done video! I'd like to toss out that Benjamin has a couple of meanings, not just son of south but also right hand and joy. I do wish you had left in the bit about when the scepter would depart.

@brianfileman

2 ай бұрын

Both ‘right (hand) and ‘south’ are correct in the biblical context. Nomadic tribes (and presumably the mythical Exodus hordes), would pitch their tents or camps with the setting sun behind them. So the rising sun would be directly ahead (East), making the South, right. Right? Old hypothesis which might be spurious though.

Amazing effort, thank you!

So should we ignore the video you made about the first five books of the Bible in favor of the intro of this video?

This needed to be a much longer video tbh

I love these videos They are always fascinating to listen to!

At least, this presenter tells you his own mythological beliefs that determine his guesswork.

This is by far the best video you have done!! Great work!

@eudora3205

2 ай бұрын

You obviously have not watched the christian Denominations series that was awesome...but then again all of the religious series are great and very engaging!!😊

@armandomalgani5226

2 ай бұрын

@@eudora3205 to be fair i have not!! Added to my watchlist!!

@Achill101

2 ай бұрын

I agree. This video hits it outside the park.

Great video as always. When you were comparing the tribe lists, I wish you'd kept the tribes in the same spots across the several lists; it would've been an easier visual reference. The color coding was helpful, too.

@UsefulCharts

2 ай бұрын

I listed them in the order that they appeared in each passage which is important because it shows that there was no standardized order and that different tribes were prioritized at different times.

That’s so cool! Please more about old bible history

"I worship a Midianite god youve probably never heard of." Hipster Jew when asked what Cult he belongs to

1:07, sir, that is Ukrainian

A 10 Lost Tribes episode sounds like a great idea! ^^

This is beautifully produced, explained and illustrated, and must have taken hours to make!

Levi Judah Joseph. You are doing a good job proving that Judah and Israel fought with each other. But the Bible already says that. Your main topic, "Where did the 12 Tribes come from?" Can't disagree with the Bible that "well it looks like they were the sons of Jacob"