That giant from under the tree!! 3ft cast and a 300ft run down stream, that was awesome! Well done

@LooknFishy

2 жыл бұрын

That was fun!

You really pay your dues hiking and exploring to find good water to fish. Good job!

I never wanted to fly fish until watching these videos.

Great channel. It's nice to see fly fishing videos that actually show fly fishing, and don't drown it out with crappy music.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks dude, yeah I'm just going fishing and sharing it!

Crazy little stream , Unbelievable quality, size for such a small creek Brookies, Bows and Cutthroats.... Funny no matter how many fish you land you still say shit when you miss one..... Must of been a short strike 😂

Was going to leave a nasty comment but luckily your replies. Thank you sir for not disclosing the water! I will say it is thick with bears and moose!!!!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, I don't burn streams! Just fish and share what happens.

I'm watching this one again just to get me stoked for my Fall '23 trip to Colorado. Listening to you say "hey bear" reminds me of how Del Gue warded off Indian attacks in Jeremiah Johnson, which I first saw on the big screen in 1972. Yes, I'm that old!

I lived in Albuquerque in the 90s and spent many happy days clambering around obscure streams in northern New Mexico and southern Colorado. This video reminds me of those days. Especially the constant "hey bear" chant.

Beautiful spot…thanks for taking us along!

Another Great! Video Drew- Fishing & Nature at its very best…

Loved that fish around the 5 minute mark, way to go landing him. Such a beautiful creek.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks man that was definitely a memorable trip, the fish were a bonus!

Love how you capture everything on your camera! Beautiful and crystal clear, the amazing streams look so real as if I were there with you! Looks like you had an awesome time, except for the hike there and back. I'm sure you enjoyed that beer! Thank you again for sharing your adventures! Simply can't get enough of your channel!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Happy to do it! Gotta have the beer. Actually enjoy the hikes also, gives perspective to the adventure!

@elisjournal4435

3 жыл бұрын

It's amazing how clear it is! I hope to find similar streams to fish on my channel!

Super fishing! Sehr schönes Vidio,schöne Fische! Splendid creek!

Thanks for that! Even the cows liked it

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, they weren't very helpful tho!

Nice fish unexpected after the little ones. Great color

Very nice fish in that creek! Thanks for keeping the name out of the video. Glad you had some success in my home state!

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Definitely, it was the reason I chose the area and made the trip so much fun!

I thought at 4:30 in ,"now that you caught him what you gonna do with him? "Then I thought "look at that little fish horse drew down stream." Then you held him up and I thought "that's a big fish! " Less spots than in wyoming. Again,beautiful fish. I love catching cutbows. Lots of fight!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, that was a wild ride. Yes, I'm a get the eat then figure out the rest type of guy. Most times it goes the fishes way lol!

Nice Video! Thanks for uploading. Can't wait to see more 👍

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank u. Another vid from this trip is up now!

Amazing! Respect.

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Thx man, was such a good time!

Fantastic viewing and very informative can't wait to try this way of fishing your flies in the rivers here in Scotland..keep up the good work and please keep putting them on here.great watching ..many thanks.. Callum

Love the videos with the natural stream sound, I'm very jealous

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks man, definitely what I've heard the most request for...no music...just the stream. I'm listening!

This was awesome to watch. What a great stream.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Cool to hear. That was absolutely one of my favorite trips ever. The hike was awesome and the water was unspoiled!

Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time and effort to share it.

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

You bet, yeah...the extra camera gear added a few pounds to the pack but it was worth it...nothing better than video for memories!

@elisjournal4435

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! He's one of my inspirations in starting my own channel. I'm small, but have big ideas.

Wow what an amazing place! Great video

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank u, definitely was a great experience. Lookn forward to more!

Wonderful place!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely!

Great video..some good fly fishing in that remote Stream. Remote certainly promotes better Fly fishing!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thx dude, yep the more remote...usually better fishing. Although, I've definitely had some fail...maybe even from last week lol!

Beautiful place with amazing fish. It looks like a unique place. It reminds me fishing in the Spanish mountains. Good memories!!

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank u! Yeah, definitely a cool place. Those Spanish mountains must be special also!

Amazing content drew.

GOOD FISHING SIR ENJOYING YOUR FISHING THANKS FOR UPLOADING BLESSINGS ❤️❤️❤️

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Really appreciate hearing it!

Those were some nice fish . greta vid !!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thx man, the fish were definitely the icing on that trip!

Hi Drew, I back tracked to watch some of your older stuff. Entertaining as always. I will be planning a 2 week southern CO fly fishing trip in August this year so will keep watching to help me decide which drainage to hit. Tight lines

Always a pain getting to the creek out west it's Alders and cottonwoods. In the Appalachians its rhododendrons and Mountain laurels. But once you get into the water it's another world!

Gorgeous fish.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank u, was definitely one of my all time favorite trips, the fish were just the icing too!

@marilynwargo6288

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy The Southern San Juan’s and the area streams and rivers are truly fine. Still so much diversity. I learned a lot watching your videos. Very smooth.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@marilynwargo6288 for sure, can't wait to explore more of the area! Thx for the good vibes!

Some wild SLABS in there! Beautiful back-country stream. FYI. Not all abandoned campsites are left by slobs ... occasionally they belong to missing persons whom the wilderness gobbled up. Next time take some picks (and a way-point) and report the camp to the local sheriff and ranger station.

Got to admire your skills. That’s some tight fly fishing, I would have left a dozen flies in the brush.

Surprising size fish for that little creek. I’ve been in the Colorado mountains in the late summer /early fall and those afternoon thunderstorms were brutal. Looks like great fun.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Was definitely a surprise. Yep, things go bad fast. Only took me getting caught once to not let it happen twice lol!

Some solid fish there amigo, esp day 2. Like your choices in western water ~~~

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Definitely some surprises in there!

Nice brookies.

Excellent day man. Gorgeous fish! Water was super small and not a ton of water in it, but you stuck a ton and fished it effectively for sure. Loved it!

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Thx dude, yea those small streams get over looked sometimes!

Awesome vid!! Great channel also!!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank u, definitely a top 5 trip for me!

I do a lot of fishing out there and it's definitely my favorite. Id prefer small streaming it all day simply to avoid the crowds and pressured fish and you can literally fish for days out there. I do the truck camp and backpack thing myself out on the service roads. Summer is great, a fish in every hole and never have to change the fly!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, you pretty much listed all the best reasons to fly fish small streams! All about the experience!

Great video , thanks for sharing and just Subscribed 🤗

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Awesome! Thank you!

Nice 👍🏽 fishing

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it!

@RealChoice1776

3 жыл бұрын

Drew LooknFishy listen very Sincerely I am very thankful. I have had five heart surgeries and have not been able to get back out to fish. I use to fish 9 times a year for 15 years. Your videos encourage me and bring healing to my spirit seeming the beautiful fish, streams and mountains. Thank You God Bless You and keep making Videos 🙏🇺🇸

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@RealChoice1776 man that's terrible but glad to gear my videos are helping. Appreciate the kind words and sending good vibes your way!

Very nice chanel and all the best for you!

👍👏 from Norway

Subscribed. Catch and release only? Boy I'd love to brine and smoke those. 😄 Trout are nice and oily. Brook and cutthroat good eating? I only ask cuz I've only eaten Rainbows and Lakers. Never caught any others. Great video. I can feel the mood with the thunder heads, the noisy creek and the trout stripping line. Doesn't get much better. Thumbs up from this seasoned fisherman 👍

A lot of long, fairly fast, not so deep runs that a lot of people would pass by in search of the deep pools. Just goes to show that you can't do that. A lot of nice fish hang out in the pockets, seams and overhanging brush. Thanks for the videos! (I'm an Orvis guy too.)

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

I tell people that all the time...trout will hold in some surprising place...just a small rock or enough shade to cover them and you never know. Doesn't hurt to make a cast!

@briankelly6113

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy Sometimes in water like that I'll put on an all-purpose nymph and cast it downstream and slowly feed line out line while using the rod to guide the fly into the pockets and seams. When you can't get a fly under the overhanging brush, you can always drift one in from upstream. The "experts" and the "purists" tell me that I'm doing everything wrong but I catch a lot of fish that way.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@briankelly6113 I'm with you, I fish down stream a bunch but I spent the first 25 yrs of my life on the front of a bass boat...so I'm definitely not a purist lol!

Terrific adventure...your food selections however are dubious camper swill. lol. Let me see if I can rustle you up something as easy but way tastier!!!! Nice time...thanks for dragging me along!!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, agreed...I do all the cooking at home so I avoid it on the trail lol! Love some suggestions!

Thats my backyard!

Headed that way to bow hunt elk in 3 weeks..also plan to do some fly fishing while there, south of South Fork...enjoyed your video...been going to Lake City since I was a kid, fishing Henson Creek..first trout on a fly there

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Man, that is awesome. My first trip that way but looking forward to exploring it more next year!

@tomhairston9557

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy Any suggestions on dry flies for last 2 weeks of Sept??...thanks!!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@tomhairston9557 not really the season but small olives and maybe tricos. Definitely bring the nymphs and streamers!

Man...that fish at around five minutes in had you going downstream like Brad Pitt in that river movie set in Montana.

Great cast in that plunge pool. Looked like a great adventure. I'm super jealous.

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

It was a good time for sure!

Drew lookin fishy is by far some of the most knowledgable trout fishing content on utube! He is man on filming and editing . With his perfect no bul....sh..t quick intro , you are instantly thrown into every avid anglers dream of being on a beautiful northwestern stream with not even a foot print or any sign of human malice. Not like other lame ass fishing videos with loud music cranking throughout and people i dont even consider anglers ,holding fish out of the water for 50+ pics and then they finish by droppin in 4or5 ft onto the rocks then they release this brain dead ,(wild steelhead ,trout,ect) with mass internal trama,then high five eachother! Come on guys! as an avid pacific northwest salmon,trout and steelhead angler do like (Drew stay fishy fishy) practice stream ediquettecy, with safe waterline fish release's when doing so, and being fishermen it is our moral duty to be respectful and keep these lakes and streams as beautiful as the ones in Drew LookinFishy utube videos. P.s. (Drew Fishy for president!)😮

Ive done the same. I am guessing you hiked and fished in the boots? That is always my quandary. "Pack light, freeze at night...". Former military; me too.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

For sure! Yep, boots...good socks and liners for hiking and wading. Flip flops at camp to dry my feet!

Hi Drew, Yours is the only channel I watch regularly. Just very humble fly fishing taking you to beautiful places. Question: Should we put fish back in the holes they came from or make way for another fish? I try my best to put them back in their holes but maybe this is not good for the fishery? Really enjoy the vids. Thanks!

Awesome videos! Just got into fly fishing a few weeks ago on a trip to Idaho and I’m addicted now lol definitely inspiring me to get out more and definitely looking at some backpacking fishing trips! Thanks for sharing your awesome adventures!

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the addiction. You definitely started in the right spot!

When you find things like an abandoned campsite you should take some of it out with you.

'Women itchy wilderness' when you put captions on.😂

@LooknFishy

2 жыл бұрын

Haha...not sure that's better than my fast mumble but sure funny!

Awesome looking area. Had it on my radar for a post-Outdoor Retailer show fishing trip this year but COVID ruined those plans. Was this recently? Water levels looked good, runoff must be long over.

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Yep, got back 2 days ago. Run off was a little early this year in the area. Getting close to drought conditions further south actually. COVID sucks!!

Great video! One question though; do you never eat any of the fish you catch?

thanks for another great video and for your service protecting our country. have you fished any of the alpine lakes in northern colorado for the greenback cuttthroat?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

No problem, can't say that I have. Need to fix that!

@markburton8376

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy home base for us is ft.collins co. we have friends and family but only get out there 1 or 2 times a year. looks like it would be right in line for you hike in and camp over night. we have never been able to but its on the list. thanks for responding.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@markburton8376 yea, I love anything that requires a hike to fish. Definitely need to research it more!

2 questions- Have you found any freeze dried meals packaged for single servings? Are you wet wading on backpack trips in your hiking shoes or do you carry additional shoes for wet wading? Thanks for the great videos.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I carry flip flops for walking around in camp while my feet dry. Wear boots to wet wade and hike in. Yes, Mountain house makes a single serving. I usually find those at Walmart but guessing they are available other places also. I prefer the 2 serving for the calories. I'm not good at taking a break for meals...so the bulk of my calories comes at dinner.

Another great video. What was the packaged food product?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Really like the peak refuel meals but they can be tough to find. Haven't been able to get them on my last 2 trips.

I really enjoy your videos, i love fly fishing myself. One thing i wish you added to your videos is what flies you are using and any tips you may have when fishing that particular location.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thx for the feedback. Others have requested this also and I added some info on flies in my newest videos from Wyoming. Again, truly appreciate the feedback!

Really enjoyed this clip and others. Curious why you don't eat any of your catch? Also, great targeting and placement on your casts.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Never been a catch and keep person. Nothing wrong with it, just too much work for me. I do all the cooking at home, so that might explain why I avoid it on trips!

I will never walk by a unassuming small rock filled stream again because of that monster at 5:08

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha...for sure!

New sub... lov the vids... water looks gin clear are you casting to “fishy spots” or are you casting to fish you can see?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Mostly fishy lookn spots. Occasionally, to a rise or a fish I could see.

beautiful places!! can i get some info which rod reel line you’re using?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Sure, this was my orvis superfine carbon 7.5' 3wt. Battenkill reel matched with orvis pro textured line.

Drew, did you stumble across a Missing 411 case???

Great video. I'd like to do a trip like that.The last time we went to Colorado, the wives did a spa day while we fished. The problem was, the wives did a spa day while we fished. They only spent 5 hours at the spa while we spent 9 hours fishing and still that wasn't enough :) I have a couple questions for you. What size rod were you using? I think it's a 3 wt but 7 feet? Also, I'm trying to tell the difference between a cut bow, and a cutthroat. Can you point out in the video which is which?

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

U gotta go back! Yep 7.5ft, 3wt. The cutbow was near the end...dudn't have the camera on so it was just a release...I pick it up and show the orange cuts under the gills. They are usually more silverish and if u weren't really looking probably mistake it for a rainbow. The only cutts in this stream were rio's....the really dark green/brownish near the beginning.

@andremarais2706

3 жыл бұрын

Wives Colorado. Hmm How many do you have? hehe

@docandry77

3 жыл бұрын

@@andremarais2706 Haha. I went with my cousin and his wife

Are you going to be out camping in October of this year?

Do you just wade in your hiking boots? Any specific socks you wear to do that?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

I just wear hiking socks and liners. Roll the sock over my boot to keep the gravel out and laces from coming untied. I wear orvis ultra light wading boots...they are as light as hiking boots, drain better and better in water traction. Wear hiking boots in camp!

When you found that old campsite, I was wondering how far the bodies were from that camp

@LooknFishy

2 жыл бұрын

That was definitely one of the eeriest things I have found on a trip!

@brelfielfan

2 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy I have a picture of that exact same abandoned campsite from July 2019 so it was there the year before too. Glad you had good luck on that creek. I vowed never to do it again because all I caught were small brookies, but we had an exceptionally wet year that year too so there was a lot of water and it was hard to fish.

There are some camera shots of fish you’ve landed where I don’t know how you manage to film while releasing the fish and holding the net. How many arms do you have? 😂

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, just the 2 but I get the most out of them!

Do you carry a spare rod ? Broke a few tripping and falling in rocks .

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely do. Try to bring a case that's a size or 2 larger...like an 8wt and can fit 2 rods in it!

There is a terrifying reason why you find abandoned camps in the wildest of places. There are things in those mountains that once seen make it impossible to ever return- I know. Great work on your videos. Stay safe. I hope you never have the occasion to abandon your camp to save your life.

@cachi-7878

3 жыл бұрын

Jeff Brooks Yeah, that could well be a story that ended badly for the camper. Bears, cougars, who knows.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

No question and the reason I go armed. Definitely considered it being an emergency but also felt like ...or I would report any such situation to the forest service to investigate and potentially help another camper avoid something similar and maybe clean it up. But who knows, definitely an eerie feeling walking up on it alone in the wilderness!

@davidcoiner6550

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy the abandoned campsite kinda gave me the heebie jeebies just watching on video.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidcoiner6550 Yea, same here...I mean seriously who leaves their dogs water bowl behind. Definitely put me on alert for the rest of the trip!

@pierrelalonde4894

3 жыл бұрын

Love your videos dude...great job 😀👍the abandoned campsites we encounter in the bush are most likely pot growers.they camp out near there plants wen harvest time is around the corner to keep a look out for thieves.sad thing is most of there crap stays behind because wen they get get there weed harvested they dont bother to go back.they accomplished there mission..i seen a few of those were i used to go fishing in the mountains...i came across a live camp once back in 2012...im lucky they were not there at the time...there was a bunch of growing stuff and lots of empty bags of soil so i knew what they were up to...so I stopped exploring around to get to other creeks in that area...i went fishing one more time before trout closed in mid September witch is about 1/4 mile from that camp site.just kept by the creek hopping not to run into them.i no it was risky but i catch brookies all day long in that creek.fuck the pot growers lol...well i dint run into the growers but i pretty much ran into there crops...wen i went up the creek a ways it started to smell like weed and got stronger and stronger...i could actually see the plants from the creek.they maybe 40 feet from the creek they were everywhere.they must have been near 500 + and they were massive...kinda cut my day short...dont want to get shot and used for composed lol..but back to abandoned camp sites,that camp site is still there to this day with all the garbage left behind 😔 went to investigate couple years later erly in the season .there gone but not there crap...on the bright side i got my creek back 👍 knowing me I will probably end up cleaning the site..who else is gana do it 🤷‍♂️

Tomorrow I go fly fishing in Gunnison National Park and hope will get my first trout ever. I’ve been trying to catch one but not a bite so far.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds awesome! The first trout is absolutley the hardest one to catch. I can still remember the frustration that little stocker gave me lol!

Drew love your videos. What water purification do you use and do you carry bear mace?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank u. I carry a sawyer mini. Been happy with it the last few years. Yes sir, carry it on my left side and my first option.

@davidcoiner6550

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy I noticed you taking pretty good precautions by announcing your presence. Have you ever had an encounter with a bear out fly fishing before? Also, I’ve seen that you do carry a revolver in some of your videos. Do you mind me asking what it is you carry?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidcoiner6550 Yep, ran into a black bear in Wyoming, "The most Incredible stream video" area. I do my best to not see any wildlife...only interested in fish lol! I carry a GP 100 357 loaded with Buffalobore hardcast 180 gr for the very unlikely event that being loud and bear mace don't work!

@davidcoiner6550

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy my dad and uncle just got themselves a pair of GP 100s and have been telling me I need to get one as well. That Buffalo bore ammo is some pretty wild stuff!

@mikecrivello4908

2 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy That’s a pretty heavy firearm! Is it just that a lighter firearm would not provide protection from Bears? Keep up the great work 👍🏻🎣🌵

What rod are you using?

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Orvis superfine carbon 7.5ft 3wt!

Hey Drew NEW Subscriber here🙏I have fished this and returning soon. Wondering what size rod you like there? I took a 7 foot 3 wt. but found it tough to land larger trout.

@LooknFishy

2 жыл бұрын

I took a 3wt last time but would bring my 8.5ft 4wt now.

What flies were they eating?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Mostly my top shelf hopper (in my tying vids) and a few on ants.

Y Mi Noosh

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, yes someone else pointed it out also. Got it now lol!

@DrJohn493

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy Glad you took it in the spirit intended, happened to me too.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@DrJohn493 yes sir, too much negativity in the world so I always try to see the good vibes. Plus, I'm definitely not an expert...just a dude with a yt channel. Really do appreciate the info!

have you ever been snake bit

Nice fish man, what was the name of that stream ?

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry man, I don't share the stream...u never know who will see it and leave their camp behind!

@t1diesel

4 жыл бұрын

thank you for not spoiling the spot me and my boy fish it annually and it could easily be ruined by tons of people going in

@LooknFishy

4 жыл бұрын

@@t1diesel Yep, it's a special place and I would never want to see or hear it get trashed. Anyone willing to do the work to find it will probably treasure it like us!

@t1diesel

4 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy yes sir

Looks like middle Creek road or fern Creek road... Maybe woodfern Creek or texas Creek or trout Creek....

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Never been!

Were you sight fishing or just throwing into fishy looking spots?

no hat?

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, the camera is attached to it...so I take it off for non-pov views!

I'm looking to hike and fish with some of friends for a couple days and was wondering what trailhead you parked your car at to hike in. The waters looked incredible!

Thank you for posting ....however, I have to really listen closely ......sometimes you talk way to fast. :)

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry...story of my life lol! I will try to slow it down!

@roberthanselman5149

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy Ha HA....no problem .....would be great to meet up fishing sometime

Going backpacking in Weminuche in 2 weeks. Which trail is in the beginning of the video?? We want to fish also

Great video......try eating some fresh fish next time. Food from a plastic bag is not good for the body.....or soul.

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

Thx dude! Agree with u on the food from plastic bags but I drink too much beer to worry about my body and watching them swim away is good for my soul lol!

@andrewmaunders5207

3 жыл бұрын

@@LooknFishy Fair enough. Wonderful fish. I returned not 24 hours ago from Rio Grande Gorge in northern new Mexico catching 20 inch wild browns. Thanks for sharing with us ! " Many men fish all their lives not realizing it is not fish they are after" HD Thoreau

@LooknFishy

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewmaunders5207 that's awesome, had it on my list for a few years just never seems to work out!