Stumbled on this by accident. Waiting for the “Cloud is a Zack zombie” trolls to rear up their heads lol

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for coming by! I find it interesting that the “Cloud is Zack” argument only comes up to discredit Clerith. Cloud couldn’t deal with the shame of not making it into SOLDIER, so he used Zack’s stories and adopted his role in the Nibelheim incident as a coping mechanism, but due to trauma and Jenova’s influence he forgot about his friend and believed those experiences to be his own. This, however, does not mean he “became” Zack - his true personality is there the whole time, and he doesn’t recognise Zack’s parents or hometown when he goes there. He doesn’t recognise or go by “Zack”, and he’s definitely not a ladies man. Also, his Jenova cells mimicked Tifa’s memories, and since she witnessed many of Zack’s actions during the Nibelheim incident (as she was his tour guide), they served to provide substance to Cloud’s Soldier story. It was in both Sephiroth and the Jenova cells’ interest to make Cloud question his whole existence (particularly his childhood) so that he could be mentally broken down and therefore a more compliant Sephiroth clone to allow Sephiroth to fulfill his scheme. Therefore, both of them are more concerned with events surrounding Tifa, since she’s the only person who can verify Cloud’s past since else is dead. Honestly, the headcanon of them making Cloud fall for his best friend’s former girlfriend isn’t exactly psychologically damaging enough to be relevant to Sephiroth’s agenda. And regardless, even after clarifying his identity and memory issues, Cloud continues to remember and miss Aerith for years after her death, enough so that he’s deeply depressed during AC(C) and requires her forgiveness in order to forgive himself for what happened to her. Cloud explains his situation quite clearly after he and Tifa return from the Lifestream ~ “I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER...... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true. […] I’m physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo’s plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud......... the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I’m going to live my life without pretending.”

@epcjmd4705

4 жыл бұрын

Excellent points all around. I think I read somewhere that this was a Western idea, & the Japanese (the language in which the game was originally written) never had this misconception that Zack is Cloud. My personal guess is... its all the people whose first experience with FF7 is thru Crisis Core instead of OGFF7 & have Zaerith as their own personal headcanon. Cloud is definitely not Zack. He’s not a happy-go-lucky, cheerful, & talkative guy. He doesn’t even remember who each Turk is & CC definitely showed he was on first-name basis with a lot of them. Cloud took on the stories, actions, fighting poses, gestures, & mannerisms but it probably ends at that. Cloud is socially awkward, kind, honest, & blunt, unlike Zack who is friendly, talkative, & cheerful as depicted in CC. Aerith saw some of the similarities but definitely saw that he was different, & was able to “coax him out of his shell” by letting him be who he is, as evidenced by the sidequest interactions during chapter 8. I would probably say that being around Aerith was the only time Cloud was able to be himself & just “cherish each moment”, (before probably his confession to the whole group after Mideel) as opposed to being around Tifa & the others in Sector 7 where he has to play the part of the cool, aloof, merc who people will need because he’s strong. Maybe I’m rambling, but I always had the sense that Tifa was in love with the image of Cloud as her hero, as opposed to Aerith who wanted to meet the real Cloud. Apologies for the big wall of text.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Ramblings are encouraged here, friend, I do a lot of it myself 😂 also yes, those are excellent points as well - the other side of the same coin is the claim that Aerith merely fell in love with Cloud because he “resembles” Zack. Firstly, this perspective is quite out of touch with how many real life relationships work... we all have traits and “types” that we’re naturally drawn to, and realistically you’re almost never going to get a crush or partner who’s completely different to anyone else you’ve met before. My first crush was a fellow student in my preadolescent dance classes, and many years later my long term girlfriend also happened to be a dancer... does that mean I’m still hung up on my first crush and projecting that onto my soon-to-be fiancé? Of course not - there’s more to love and relationships than a few trivial similarities, and people mature and grow as time goes on. The fact that Aerith is INITIALLY drawn to Cloud because of his similarities to Zack shows she has a type, not necessarily that she’s still hung up on the guy. Secondly, it’s been made very clear by SE and Aerith herself that she’s moved on from Zack. From saying they were never serious, that he’s a ladies’ man and that she thinks he ran off with another woman, to flatout rejecting him when they reunite in the lifestream in MWTTP, to SE almost always marketing Clerith together instead of Zerith (CC being the obvious exception since they hadn’t met yet), to CC Aerith writing about her moving on from Zack after waiting four years for him to return. Was it Zack’s fault he didn’t come back? Not at all, but it’s also not fair to expect a woman to be content waiting around for a man without any suspicions or making a life for herself. People naturally drift apart sometimes, and I know many people would relate to her. She still cares about him as a “dear friend”, which is understandable since she was quite a lonely kid and had few friends, but as far as romance goes she clearly has the “gotta look forward, not back” mentality. She knows Zack is gone and that Cloud is not Zack, and even on the Gold Saucer date (the Clerith date is the “normal” aka canon outcome) that even though she noticed the similarities, she was very eager to meet the real Cloud who she sensed with her Cetra abilities. Yes it’s true they didn’t know a lot about each other, however chemistry, compatibility and an eagerness to learn more about each other is more important than just being a walking encyclopaedia of another person; time and knowledge alone are inadequate ingredients in any lasting relationship.

@epcjmd4705

4 жыл бұрын

Definitely. There’s a good reason the game developers had a really big scene with Aerith declaring, “Gotta look forward, not back”. In real life, people can move on from past relationships & I highly doubt Aerith’s personality will let her degrade either Cloud or Zack by substituting one for the other. Just to go back on Tifa though, I don’t wanna downplay Tifa’s love for Cloud... It’s just that Aerith & Cloud definitely bonded in such a deep & fitting way in a few days which he was never able to do with Tifa. They really complement each other well & it shows in the games. Also like how you highlighted that even if Tifa & Aerith know they are rivals for Cloud’s affections, they’re still genuinely friendly with each other, a concept which isn’t so strange considering that this is a JRPG at its core, considering the usual J-dramas & tropes. Personally, I didn’t wanna get on a ship after OGFF7 knowing how it ended... was expecting Cloud to move, but then SE released AC, & CloTi never materialized, & now Remake which further established Clerith as canon. Funny how the developers said that they were gonna give both girls equal chances with Cloud before the game’s release but that was actually a farce... Tifa’s scenes actually more reinforced Clerith lol. Remake gave you the sense that they Cloud & Aerith were already communicating on more than a verbal level already. I don’t wanna say anymore in fear of spoiling it unless you’ve already finished the game already. Apologies again for the big wall of text.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

All good, I’ve already finished the game, my uploads are just very delayed XD in regards to Tifa, I’d like to give her the benefit of a doubt and say that her childhood fantasies (which she projected onto Cloud when they were teens) could’ve evolved into a holistic sense of love. However, Tifa never really seems to evolve past that point of putting her expectations onto Cloud, even in AC(C) we that she clearly doesn’t understand Cloud’s grieving process and unwittingly trivialises it in her “lecture”. Many will say it’s a matter of “tough love”, but people need to understand that that’s not a healthy approach to take with someone who’s sensitive or has mental illness like Cloud. Even Case of Tifa is full of examples where Cloud and Tifa constantly miss the mark with each other. They don’t understand each other, and neither makes a healthy attempt to do so. Not to mention, how she actively lied and refrained from telling the truth about Nibelheim (which significantly contributed to Cloud’s breakdown and set Sephiroth’s apocalyptic scheme in motion) all because she was scared of “losing him” is a bit dubious. I understand that she herself was confused about the details surrounding the incident (again, Jenova influenced both of them so that Cloud could lose his sense of identity and reality), and she couldn’t have known the consequences of her actions, however that shouldn’t have stopped her from at least discussing her confusions with Cloud... they could’ve worked together to figure out the true events before he got to breaking point, before Sephiroth started to influence him. And in Remake, we see her milk his status as a Soldier in Sector 7, using her to settle her own business disputes, telling him about reputation and business... but then when all is said and done, she ditches her “childhood friend” to go hang out with the gang she was just complaining about not a minute earlier. To me, Tifa really feels like a real people-pleaser in the Remake, which compromises whatever resolve and solid morals she had in the OG. I do agree that I feel Tifa is more in love with Cloud’s status and what it entails, as well as him being her last connection to her childhood which she predominantly enjoyed (barring her mother’s death of course). We’ve seen via the OG and the Comp that even with all the time in the world, Cloud and Tifa just never click romantically, and they’re barely even functional friends a lot of the time. As the Remake project continues, it seems like they’re drastically gonna change some things due to certain characters knowing more than they should and the Whispers and the portals and such, so I honestly think we’re gonna see what happens when Clerith is given more time and chances to grow. The devs themselves said they’re inherently incompatible. If Tifa let go of her need to cling to the past via Cloud (who has nothing good in the past and just wants to move on from it) and if Cloud truly saw Tifa in a romantic light and made effort to get close to her (as we see him do with Aerith) they could’ve been a good couple in my opinion, but as things currently are they just aren’t a healthy pairing to me. I have no problem with other people shipping it if they wish, but in my opinion they bring out the worst in each other and their whole relationship is either stagnant or deteriorating whenever we see them.

The difference between Clotis and Cleriths. Clotis: "Tifa, Tifa, Tifa" Cleriths: "Cloud *and* Aerith"

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

That’s definitely the most succinct way to put it 😂 I’ve found that a lot of Cloti arguments rely on gratifying Tifa’s feelings, while exaggerating Cloud’s positive thoughts/reactions or even outright projecting false thoughts/reactions onto him… it’s canonically stated AND shown that Cloti are fundamentally dysfunctional, and that Tifa’s actions continuously escalate Cloud’s already fragile mental state (especially when she puts her own thoughts/feelings before his, as shown both in OG and AC(C) - both times she bottled things up for far too long, choosing to nurture her own wants, until Cloud broke down and isolated himself from all his loved ones). They simply bring out the worst in each other and they never address the root of their issues (ie communication) so they never properly fix it - they just have the occasional glimmer of amicability in what is otherwise an awkward and sometimes even passive-aggressive friendship 😕 Clerith on the other hand is much more mutual - Aerith validates and encourages Cloud to be open and authentic, and Cloud always does his best to listen and support her in return… they have so much fun together and feel safe to be vulnerable with each other. They’re also framed as being the most important characters via several means, including their complicated connections with antagonists Jenova, Sephiroth and Shinra. Cloud is what you’d call a POV protagonist, since we experience the story through his eyes, while Aerith is more so the overall protagonist since she’s at the centre of all the conflicts and plays a major part in addressing them 💚

@eita8946

5 ай бұрын

omg exactly

I agree on all your points!!! I don’t see why people think cloti is canon. Not that I don’t like that and not that they don’t have potential in the future but it’s so clear clerith is canon

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for coming by, and absolutely! Shipping is about enjoying character chemistry, be it evident or hypothetical, and doesn’t have to be reliant on canon info. Also, people shouldn’t just “ship” something to be on the “winning team” because it is (or most likely to be) canon. Too many people argue “I like X ship, therefore it is canon” or “X ship is canon, therefore I like it”, whereas for me I like Clerith and believe it to be canon simultaneously without them being caused by one another, if that makes sense? Even if I didn’t like Clerith, the evidence still suggests they’re a very plausible couple, and even if Clerith was never confirmed or was flatout debunked, their in-universe chemistry would still make me ship them. I form both my shipping preferences and LTD theories on what I’ve observed in FFVII as a story and franchise, I’ve come to my own conclusions based on evidence and don’t try to conflate preference and plausible canon together in that sense.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I’m not sure if that person’s comments were visible before I banned them, but in case they showed up in your notifications I’m so sorry for that happening 😞

oh wow, I was expecting this video to be the usual team Tifa, but I’m glad it’s team Clerith. Nice to see some representation. I’ve always found their star crossed lovers story very beautiful and touching. It’s super heartbreaking to see how underrated, overlooked and denied it is in the fandom. Wish people were more open minded to this ship. Cloud & Aerith are a beautiful pair, and they 100% have a connection like no other. My favourite love story of all time. 🤍

@Kabbaway

10 ай бұрын

Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I think a lot of people unfairly dismiss Clerith in favour of a process of elimination rationale (not to mention the popularity of the childhood-friends-to-lovers trope). I think the Remake project’s emphasis on changing and overcoming fate has and will convince people that the pairing is worth acknowledging, considering and possibly shipping 💚

tifa: your eyes are scary. aerith: wow, your eyes. i feel like the remake is gonna answer which ship is THE ship. the remake is a whole different 'universe/story/world/timeline' according to the developers.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely - Nojima said they’re leaving less to interpretation because they want to showcase Cloud as his own character rather than a player proxy, and the more Remake content we get the more obvious it becomes which girl he prefers romantically

@huh3085

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway you mean like... Nojima want to make Cloud the one who will choose which girl he loves and not the players?! And this time, it's about Cloud's decision and not the players!? Omg.. that's... I'm agree 💯!!!

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

@Huh exactly, it makes the story more immersive and the characters more grounded and developed 😊

@huh3085

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway exactly! And it will shows the Players who's the boss all the way 😏 I'm tired of some players claiming something that SE never confirm something about the things that they are claiming...so it's time for the players to stop claiming something. And it's time for Cloud's to make his own decisions... It's time to know who's the girl that Cloud truly loves...

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! It's true that the devs haven't exactly said "Cloud and Aerith are the canon/intended couple", but their statements and all the official material heavily implies it when you look at the big picture... they're putting all the pieces together and spelling it out for everyone this time and it's only a matter of time before the undeniable truth comes out

In my opinion Tifa and Cloud are more like brother an sister

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for coming by! 😄 I guess I can see that dynamic - while they do care for each other and Cloud is protective of her they’re still estranged by their incompatibility and lack of quality time together in the past. When Tifa gives Cloud feedback, she’s almost nag-y about it like a sister would - short criticising remarks with no actual explanation on how to improve (ie “be nice!”). Aerith on the other hand tends to be more constructive with Cloud, suggesting that he at least pretend to show care and happiness for people.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

The sibling dynamic is not literal, it’s a loose analogy to describe the nature of their interactions. I think I’m gonna have to disagree about the romantic hints - a lot of it is either one-sided on Tifa’s part (as you mentioned since Cloud’s crush on her was in the past, as well as described as “dim” in CC Ultimania), or circumstantial skinship (Cloud having to constantly save Tifa even though she’s meant to be a fit, capable person; they don’t touch each other for longer than necessary like Clerith does, and Cloud objects more to Tifa touching him than he does with Aerith). As I said here and in the video, their dynamic is laced with incompatibility and miscommunication which is disastrous and dysfunctional in any relationship (romantic or otherwise). Tifa is consistently described as a friend (both in-universe and in crossovers/spin-offs), even in Dirge of Cerberus which is set after Advent Children; so if the devs are trying to hint at Cloti being romantic they have a peculiar way of doing it. I’ve seen many people argue that Clerith has a sibling relationship even though Aerith, unlike Tifa, actually flirts with Cloud and he never objects to people’s assumptions that he and Aerith are a couple (plus he actively calls himself her bodyguard when he’s fully aware that it also comes with a date). In any case (pun intended), Tifa’s novella details how she concedes to see the group as a “family of friends”, and ends up feeling maternal towards Cloud which is reflected in how Cloud is depicted (eg “like a child about to be scolded”). So by Tifa’s own words/thoughts she ends up resigned to remain a friend with a familial approach, which isn’t very romantic.

You can't really call Tifa and Cloud 'childhood friends', they WEREN"T friends. They were neighbours and I'm glad that you referred to them as so. Tifa barley knows Cloud and she barley tries to get to know him, people keep saying Cloud was fake throughout the whole ffvii game, so his relationship with Aerith wasn't really him, but they ignore the fact that means his relationship with Tifa was the same, frankly it was worse. Cloud melted with Aerith, his true self shone when he was with her, Aerith herself mentions this on their gondala date. But he hardens the SOLDIER person the most with Tifa, since thats literally what she wanted.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! Even though I wanted to be generous in the intro for each woman in this video, I wasn’t gonna pretend that Tifa and Cloud actually were “childhood friends” - it’s such a loaded term that really doesn’t apply to their actual circumstances. Some have tried to argue that the recent novella “proves” that Cloud and Tifa truly were childhood friends, but this fails to take into account that Tifa had her own memory issues in the OG, which are directly addressed in the Lifestream sequence - she had assumed that since they lived next to each other that they were close, and had basically forgotten that her and her group of friends had frequently excluded Cloud. Because of the childhood promise, their one meaningful conversation, she ended up romanticising the hell out of their acquaintance until she couldn’t remember the truth (whether through physical/mental trauma from the Nibelheim incident or simple self-persuasion). Even in novellas like Case of Tifa, she’s shown to be an unreliable narrator - failing to recognise how bad things were getting with Cloud and prioritising her own interpretation of what was best for him. Like you said, I’ve found that a lot of the people who argue that Cloud was a totally different guy in Disc 1 only apply it to Aerith via the ZaCloud theory, when the cold truth of the matter is that Cloud’s fake persona was actually created by Tifa’s romanticised memories of Cloud being her hero - Cloud’s Jenova cells copy-pasted Tifa’s “memories” into Cloud the moment they reunited at the train station. The only “Zack memories” Cloud gained involved what Tifa had seen of Zack (since she was his guide in Nibelheim), and Cloud picked up some minor mannerisms from the time he spent with his friend. That’s literally all that Cloud “took” from Zack, he retained most of his own personality and didn’t recognise anything deeper about Zack (eg his hometown, parents or even Aerith). Cloud was always his own person, just with some amnesia and some patchy memories thanks to the extraterrestrial influence of Jenova. Aerith is credited as starting to bring out the real Cloud - in fact, she’s the only character to directly address this with Cloud (since her Gold Saucer date is the “normal” aka practically canon outcome). Numerous dev statements and supplementary materials have emphasised how Aerith is aware of the real Cloud and was trying to bring him out of his shell, which was starting to succeed. Even the dream he has of his Mum when he’s sleeping in Aerith’s house is canonically one of his real memories which was triggered by his time with Aerith. She tried to bring out the truth, whereas Tifa repeatedly enabled Cloud’s confusion and even actively lied about some things (eg pretending she didn’t know Zack even though Cloud could see she clearly did) until Sephiroth exploited her hesitancy to break Cloud’s mind and kickstart the end of the world.

It's heartwarming to see someone playing the OG for the first time in 2014 and still being able to see the clerith development in it's whole beauty even with it's simplistic graphics. It's impressive that you made this video before Remake came out, since in this game we can clearly see Cloud and Aerith's emotions and affection down to the smallest nuances conveyed in their body language. I've experienced the game as it came out in 1997 and I always knew that Cloud and Aerith were meant for each other. Now more than 20 years later, the Remake makes it even more obvious. Thanks for the video.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Hi, it’s an honour to have an OG Clerith here... I wasn’t even alive when OG was released (I was born in 1998)! 😄 I’ve only been a Clerith since 2014 after my friend showed me Advent Children (Complete), and even without the context of the main game it was easy for me to tell what Cloud’s feelings for Aerith vs Tifa were. The more I’ve explored the Compilation, supplementary materials and dev statements as well as merch and spin-off cameos, the more apparent the intended couple becomes to me. I made this video in a bit of a rush so it’s not as comprehensive or high-quality as I would’ve liked, but I made it to make my shipping preferences transparent before Remake released so that I didn’t have to censor myself in my playthrough videos (I’m still editing the footage, but I finished the game last year). I have to say that Remake, and everything I’ve seen from Intergrade so far (I haven’t got a PS5 so I’ve had to rely on KZread videos), has only reinforced what I said here... Nojima wasn’t kidding when he said they weren’t leaving nearly as much to interpretation this time around! I’m looking forward to future parts and seeing what they’ll do with the story... maybe I might make some better videos detailing my thoughts in the future 😁

I first played the OG about 2-3 years before Remake released, I did a couch co-op type deal with my roommate and we were both super into Cloud x Aerith but we quickly found out that we appeared to be in a minority or at least a group that isn't very vocal. Anyway we were originally open to the idea that "Sure, after the OG Tifa and Cloud probably become a thing" until we watched Advent Children. Their relationship just didn't seem that great from what was shown and Tifa said two things to him that seemed super toxic; "You think you’ve got it so damn hard." and "Which is it? A memory, or us?" Cloud is depressed, suffering from a terminal illness and Tifa is shaming him? Yikes... Then it got worse with A Case of Tifa; she found an invoice while cleaning up Clouds desk while he was out to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City and she started 'trembling severely', because she knew what that would do to him. Then that night when he got back he was drinking, which he rarely did and she asked if she could drink with him. He told her he 'drinks alone' so she lost control and said, 'Then drink in your room.' Then that entire exchange where she asked Cloud if he loved her, WHILE HE WAS ASLEEP. BIG OOF. Finally there are two things Clotis commonly do that really bothers me. First is they try to take Marlene away from Barret, acting like she's Tifa and Clouds kid, she ain't, she's Barret's. The four of them, five after Denzel, live in the bar so of course Tifa takes care of Marlene when Barret is away and A Case of Tifa even says Marlene sleeps in Tifa's bed with her. Second, they come up with every excuse possible to invalidate the feelings Cloud and Aerith had for each other in the OG, 'Cloud thinks he's Zack' 'Aerith thinks he's Zack' 'J E N O V A', just stop, none of that is true. I feel like they do it because they're insecure about their ship or because like someone else pointed out Cloti is really about *Tifa* not Tifa and Cloud, Tifa obviously has feelings for Cloud but in my opinion they're largely unrequited and because people are generally suckers for the 'childhood friends become lovers' trope (they also ignore the fact they weren't friends), they want so bad for them to work because of *Tifa* not Cloud. It almost feels like they're projecting? So like, I don't care if people ship 'em honestly but just don't come at me and try to make their relationship into something squeaky clean, if you've read and watched everything and still think they're some fairy tale romance then I dunno what else to say. Sorry this was longer then I'd planned and feels kinda ramble-y but here we are.

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

No worries at all, ramblings are always welcome here. In fact I love it - I love hearing other Cleriths' perspectives and facilitating a safe space for discussion, and it also boosts my channel in KZread's algorithm so it's a win-win for all of us! 😄 As I've mentioned to others my first official exposure to FFVII's story was Advent Children, and straight away it didn't give me a good impression of Tifa or her connection with Cloud. And the more content I looked into the more my impressions were consolidated, for all the reasons you mentioned. It's frustrating because Tifa never learns or grows; in OG she selfishly held onto her childhood fantasies at the cost of Cloud's mental stability by enabling his fake persona, and despite the Lifestream/Mideel sequence where they BOTH learn the whole truth she continues to be a codependent, resentfully friendzoned caricature with shallow moments of performative badassery sprinkled in for fanservice. I'm so open to her having an actual arc this time around in the Remake project, and I'm really hoping they're setting her up to make peace with her past and become more independent. I guess time will tell 😅

@Addam_

Жыл бұрын

I'm hoping this time during ether the Kalm flashback sequence or when they get to Nibelheim (or both) Tifa presses Cloud on his memories of what happened, that'd be a huge improvement for her character. Nobody can ever give me a reasonable explanation as to why she never said anything. As long as I'm being hopeful here, I could see a scenario where Cloud manages to save Aerith but he falls into the Lifestream likely wounded by Sephiroth, prompting Aerith to jump in after him. Setting Tifa up for a much earlier and more important period as party leader than in the OG. She really needs something to make her relevant apart from Cloud.

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

Same, with her dialogue in the Rebirth trailer (not to mention with Zack being alive in some capacity) I think Cloud's gonna work through his identity crisis sooner than OG, which greatly undermines her role since Zack can just directly clarify things. I hope that despite this she's held accountable for withholding her concerns and truth (yes she was "uncertain" but she herself admitted the real reason she said nothing was because she didn't want Cloud to leave her), and that freeing her from that conflict gives her room to develop her own arc 💚

i noticed that most people that ship cloud and aerith are those that have played the original game before the remake, and before crisis core. i used to think that the intended pair for cloud was tifa, but that was because the only ff game i ever played was crisis core on psp back then. the rest of the story i just picked up from different sources. however, even when i thought that they were the intended pair i never really shipped them personally. i was just so invested in the zack and aerith ship that i couldnt see aerith pairing up with anyone else. but that was because i had no idea about aerith and clouds story. there's still much that i dont know about the lore of final fantasy (seven especially), since i started getting interested in this pretty late in the game, but the more i do the more i think that aerith and cloud were the intended pair all along, and the remake was not exactly subtle in pointing that out. i just hope that the devs makes this a lot clearer in the next part. well, i dont think they will considering how popular tifa is as a character... maybe they will make it a choice between the two. where one is the canon pair and the other a fanservice, maybe they will play it safe like that. anyways i really learned a lot about their character dynamics from this, so thank you for uploading this.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for coming by! You’re definitely not alone there, many people start out shipping Cloti because of what they see on the Internet and such, but then when you look at the source material (ie the games, dev statements, novels etc) it tells a very different story. I was first introduced to FFVII with Advent Children, and even without the context of the OG it was just obvious to me that Cloud was pining over his deceased love who died suddenly and tragically. Tifa just stuck me as a random friend/ex-roommate of his who kinda doesn’t know how to handle people with trauma and mental illness. As time went on I was exposed to the rest of the story, which only served to consolidate my first impressions. As for Zack, since I had been introduced to Clerith first, I never fully got on board with Zerith - it was absolutely a canon thing and it was kinda cute to see play out in CC, but because of how much their moments borrowed from Clerith it just came off as subpar to me. Knowing that Aerith wasn’t entirely happy with the relationship as she said in the OG played a part in my impressions too. To me, theirs was more a cutesy, first crush kind of love which you have when you’re a naive, inexperienced teenager, whereas Clerith is a deeper, more mature love on an emotional and even spiritual level. Being demisexual and demiromantic, Clerith deeply resonated with how I experience love and intimate relationships, and even though I don’t ship many cishet couples for the simple reason that I’m gay so I usually don’t relate to them, I was able to relate to Clerith because it’s a complex and beautiful relationship which is mutually fulfilling for both of them. Sadly, not many relationships are healthily developed and represented in such a way in our media. There is the possibility of them wanting to play it safe to appease the fanbase, but in my honest opinion the only way to properly send off this franchise is to settle the debates and clarify the misconceptions once and for all, which they’ve been hitting right on the head from the get-go with Remake. They did say that the girls would get equal screen time, however they also said that they were leaving less to interpretation this time around, so I say they’ve had enough beating around the bush and just want to settle everything. If you’d like to learn more about Clerith’s dynamics, I highly recommend a YT series by Pollen Ainne - they’ve compiled some of the most comprehensive info about Clerith I know of and it’s presented very clearly and professionally 🙂 kzread.info/head/PLzbmtgHOZrwiqtQ7S-id1QmNeni4ygH9u

@karlaandrea3248

4 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway omg! did they really say that about leaving less to interpretation this time around? thats very interesting, considering how the remake seemed to lean towards clerith a lot. (or maybe im just biased, lel) as for them saying that they would give aerith and tifa equal screen time, i thought they meant that they would give the player an equal chance to choose between the two, i didnt know they were only talking about screen time, so i thought i should expect it to be a lot like how the witcher 3 (triss vs yenefer) panned out. which, i think now, is probably not going to be the case on this game. i actually already know about pollen ainne's channel, and i watched every video which is the reason why im in too deep right now. i have never shipped an uncertain ship in my life, so i searched for confirmation just to help me sleep in peace, haha. usually i dont get invested in a ship until im certain theyre the endgame, but aerith and cloud- they pull my heartstrings just right, i cant help it. (and i really do think that they are the otp) as a fan of crisis core first, i was surprised that most fans of the ogff7 dont really like it as much - i mean, the me back then thought that zack was the best thing that has ever happened to planet earth and that cloud was just a budget zack hahaha, (i was a kid, please dont hurt me). crisis core also left me with the misconception that zack left some parts of his subconscious in clouds mind, and it didnt help that this theory is being parroted in every forum i looked at back then - and even now, a lot of people still believe in this theory. i still would believe in clerith whether aerith lives or dies, but if its alright to ask - do you think aerith's fate will be different this time around? i havent played the remake, but i think there were a lot of hints of things being different than how the original ended. anyways, im sorry for the longass reply - no one around me is as interested in the story of ff7 as i am T_T

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah! Nojima, who was in charge of story and scenario, stated: “It was an exciting task to introduce a new current of wind to FINAL FANTASY VII, but at the same time, there was some fear. The original game used cartoon-like, stylised art, and the story was completed by players using their imagination to supplement portions that couldn’t be depicted as a result. Even if they were seeing the same scene, the information they took away from it and how they interpreted it differed depending on the viewer. Perhaps it’s what might be considered a narrative form of storytelling nowadays. In FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE, there will be much less room for player imagination. This fact will probably change the feel of the story considerably. People who know the original might not know quite how to take it. Such is the fear that I have. But I also have conviction. It should be possible to feel a much deeper connection to Cloud as you join alongside him. It would be amazing if you could feel that fiery flame together with him.” square-enix-games.com/en_GB/news/final-fantasy-vii-remake-developers In regards to the Cloud is Zack theory, it only goes as far as a role crisis. Cloud himself stated in the OG that he created a facade for himself to cope with his failure to join SOLDIER, and he based that on the stories Zack told him. Then the trauma from the experimentation caused him to believe the false role he had created. As far as Jenova cells go, Sephiroth was interested in making Cloud question his identity to the point of having an existential crisis so that he was mentally weak enough to do Sephiroth’s bidding, and enabling Cloud to keep believing the illusion was part of that agenda. It had nothing to do with Aerith or romance or anything like that, that was totally irrelevant to Sephiroth’s plans. So the Cloud is Zack theory is not true at all - at most, Cloud adopted Zack’s role in the Nibelheim incident and some of his battle mannerism, but otherwise he retains his true personality, childhood memories etc. He doesn’t recognise anything of Zack’s that he wasn’t told about by Zack himself. And yeah, I fully believe Aerith’s fate will be changed. Without going into too much detail, Remake is not a 1:1 match to the OG. It follows many of the main beats from the OG, but it also subverts veteran fans’ expectations and there is a lot of foreshadowing that fate will be defeated. The Remake sets out to rectify many of the misconceptions perpetuated by the Internet, and changing Aerith’s fate may serve to prove once and for all that Clerith were intended to be together romantically, and Cloud isn’t just feeling “guilt and grief” over her death. Many people use the excuse of her being dead to say Clerith can’t be canon, so keeping her alive this time around would challenge many of those assumptions.

@karlaandrea3248

4 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway after seeing how part 1 ends, i think so too. i mean - aeriths (and by extension, evryone's) fate changing is probably not even a debate, and is already a fact seeing as how they slapped the game with numerous foreshadowing and warnings and stuff that at this point killing her off, the same way as the og, is just too cruel T_T watching the remake version aerith die is going to be a whole lot more traumatizing considering how they made her so lovable hahaha... which might be their plan all along :/ i read somewhere that aeriths death is essential in order for them to save the world or something, so i dont know how they will pull that off, but i really hope she lives. thats why im waiting for part 2 before diving right in lol. the thing with final fantasy is that it is very difficult to understand the story if you only know about the one game (obviously). there will be a lot to miss. i only know crisis core for years so my knowledge about the game is very limited that i just blindly accepted the theory that cloud is zack and did not really dig up anything further (my bad). right now im putting the pieces together through crumbs from the internet, so thank you for giving an explanation on the zacloud theory! and i've also seen 'the zacloud fallacy' from pollen aine's channel, which explained a lot. i hope that they do handle this 'love triangle' well, and that they make everything clear. based on my understanding so far, however, clerith is indeed real - the two of them just never had the chance to expand the relationship (or the budding relationship) or something, in the original. but that doesnt mean i dont believe in the possibility of cloti (no matter how much i dont dig it), in the universe or timeline or whatever where aerith dies i believe they might have the chance. maybe a few years after advent children? i just didnt really feel there was anything romantic between them in advent children or in the remake even... the way that aerith and cloud made a connection with each other in such a short amount of time is such a red string of fate kinda thing, they just have this undeniable chemistry... or i could be super biased lol.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

No problem, I’m glad my comment helped 🙂 killing Aerith off now would still be devastating, but it just wouldn’t have the same impact as it did back in 1997 - storytelling in games have come a long way and many games (and movies, books, TV shows etc) have implemented similar twists as Aerith’s death. Aerith’s death is one of the most iconic scenes in gaming history, and along with all the foreshadowing going on at the moment it just undermines the sudden, raw emotions her death was meant to invoke because people expect it now. The devs said that they want to engage new fans and surprise old ones, so I think sparing Aerith would be the biggest surprise of them all. In regards to Cloti, it is theoretically possible. They’re comrades who have technically known each other for a long time. Although for them to work they’d have to change quite a bit. Tifa would need to be more tactful and empathetic to Cloud’s introversion and trauma (and not be so codependent in him), and Cloud would have to put in the effort to make her happy. The devs stated that they are inherently incompatible, which I believe is fully conveyed throughout the Comp, especially in the novel Case of Tifa and AC(C), both set after the OG. One thing is for sure, in all the canon source material of the story they are described as simply friends, right up to Dirge of Cerberus which is set a year after AC(C) (and 3 years after the OG). Personally I think they barely function as friends because many of their interactions are tense, confrontational or otherwise relating back to their past trauma... not to mention Tifa enabled Cloud to be ostracised by Nibelheim as a kid and then enabled him to keep believing in his false narrative even though she suspected otherwise which isn’t the healthiest dynamic for a friendship. They have some sweet moments, but they’re framed mostly platonically (though you get the occasional fanservice) in comparison to the emotional and spiritual depth of Clerith’s interactions. If they could overcome their traumas and let go of their unhealthy coping mechanisms maybe they could work, but from everything I’ve seen Cloud still loves Aerith and may never see Tifa that way. I guess we just have to wait and see what lies in store for our beloved characters 😅

I agree with every point! I actually started off with Remake so, at first, I thought Cloud’s love interest was Tifa at first since I’m so used to the “childhood friends become lovers” trope. But, after awhile, and after looking through the rest of the compilation AND replaying Remake... I realized that Cloud and Aerith are MUCH more compatible.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for coming by! Yeah, it seems a lot of people who play FFVII are accustomed to the “childhood friends to lovers” trope... but when you really look into it FFVII subverts many of our Western tropes, especially in regards to Aerith and Tifa. If Cloud and Tifa had ACTUALLY been childhood friends the story would be fundamentally different, because a lot of the conflict with Cloud’s identity literally stems from the fact that Tifa hardly knows him (his fake persona is even caused by her due to Cloud’s Jenova cells implanting her idealised version of Cloud and her memories of Zack into Cloud). And yeah, they never really resolve their miscommunication issues, even long after Aerith’s death. I hope you’ve enjoyed experiencing the Compilation, FFVII is one of my favourite games 🥰

@christianray8973

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway thank you!! And I agree with all of that! I went through FF7 and, despite knowing Aerith’s fate, the emotions hit me like a ton of bricks when she died 😭 On the up side, I have a plethora of theories on how this series will end but I won’t bore you with that 😂

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Me too! I started with Advent Children back in 2014, and from there I watched cutscenes/playthroughs for the rest of the Compilation as well as researched on fan sites/forums before finally playing the OG in 2019 and Remake last year. My first impressions of Aerith being Cloud’s deceased lover and Tifa being a naggy roommate were solidified the more I learned about the story and development. And yeah, when I finally played the part where Aerith dies I was devastated (I linked the video in one of the cards on this video) 😭 It’s all good - discussions and theorising are most welcoming here, I enjoy chatting with people! 🥰

Expertly handled, and I am so happy to see a resurgence of the Clerith community after the remake came out. Because Aerith was localized so much better in the remake than in the English version of the original, many more people can see how Aerith thaws Cloud and is an irresistible sassy wise flower of a human being growing out of the asphalt of midgar. (For more on how Aerith could have been localized, watch Tim Rogers excellent series on the localization mistakes in his series "Let's Mosey: A slow translation of FF VII") The fact that anyone can even debate that Cloud would not have feelings for Aerith or prefer Tifa is beyond inane, especially if you see how he reacted to her death in the original (Just compare his reaction when Aerith dies in front of him, to his reaction when he thinks Tifa is going to Bleed out in his Nibelheim flashback), and if you look at the ending where Cloud resolves to go meet with Aerith after getting his answer from the planet, to the question not asked, but inferred by perceptive players which is "Where and how can I find Aerith" - An Answer from the planet "In The promised land", it is clear as day. No matter who you date and whatever optional scenes you go for with any character, Cloud resolves to find Aerith again. He loves her. It is pure objective fact.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for commenting! It sounds like you’ve been part of the fandom for a while - I first got into FFVII in 2014 when I first watched Advent Children Complete and I researched a bunch of forums and fan sites as well as watched playthroughs of the Compilation’s games (including OG), but didn’t get actively involved in the fandom until the lead-up to Remake. It has been absolutely awesome to see Clerith content not only be openly and widely appreciated but taken seriously on again (it’s had a history of being trivialised due to Aerith’s death). I’ve seen part of Tim Roger’s series and I absolutely agree that English-reading players were robbed of the true extent of Aerith’s nuance and individuality 😔 Yeah, somehow people still find ways to argue that Cloud wanting to reunite with Aerith in the Promised Land (as depicted in later Compilation entries as well as spin-off cameos) means nothing romantic, which I find very baffling and relies on really ignoring or twisting the available evidence to make Cloud and Tifa’s relationship seem less dysfunctional than it actually is. In any case, Remake is leaving nothing to interpretation and has really been doubling down on the romantic implications of Clerith while introducing Cloti’s issues earlier. I guess we’ll see how future parts of Remake handle the LTD, but for now I’m pretty confident they’ll keep creating the illusion of equal treatment via the technicality of equal screentime, while giving Clerith the more quality content (in terms of plot relevance, thematic expression and character development) until confirming things one way or another at the very last minute to avoid pissing off half the fanbase 😅

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

One day I might make a more detailed, coherent video with more evidence - this was kind of a video I made in the lead-up to Remake to establish my preferences before playing the game,so it was a more of a ramble than a strong analysis... needless to say Remake has given me a LOT to talk about so far 😂

@PerfectEclipse

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I agree, the remake project is definitely making more clear the intended romantic couple in the game moreso than the original. Even though the ending in my opinion left no other option, it's still a bit less obvious than more recent FF games have been about this. FF X for example let the player flirt with both Lulu and Rikku, and even let the player chose for Tidus to say he was not interested in Yuna, yet during the game, the real intended romantic partner is left to the game itself to reveal to the player through the narrative that unfolds. Speaking of FF X, there is a similar naming convention showing who is the romantic couple in the name choices of the male and female leads. Tidus came from the Okinawan word for sun, Tida, and Yuna came from the okinawan word for moon. A clear symbol of the yin/yang, Masculine/feminine dynamic of polarity between the couple of the game. Similarly Cloud (sky) and Aerith (Earth) have symbolic names, showing their connection. I also know that Nomura has been wanting to clarify (or should I say Clerify? :) ) the connection Cloud and Aerith Share for years. in the original version of Advent Children, we see Cloud find his happiness and promised land after he finds Aerith at the end of Advent Children while driving in the landscape, and we see him smile after he sees her in the church beforehand. The song playing during the church sequence is called "cloud smiles", and explains why the books detailing the events before Advent Children are called "On the way to a Smile". The novels before and the film are the story of a man overcoming guilt, grief and depression, and discovering that the love of his life lives forever in his heart. And beyond that beautiful symbolism, they actually meet in the flower field. It is simply beautiful. Add to that the beautiful music that just speaks their connection, such as the theme "Water", where you can just hear the nurturing caring love Aerith shares for Cloud, how she is still there, as soon as her unforgettable theme plays during the song, and it is almost impossible not to be touched by the depth of what you hear. I am deep in the rabbit hole as you can infer, and way past the point of no return when it comes to whom I believe loves whom. :D

@PerfectEclipse

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway And please do make more videos! It breathes such wonderful life into the Clerith community that has been resurging as of late, and if nothing else, people like myself are touched to know someone else sees the obvious nature of what is meant to be as well.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with all your points! It’s also interesting how Clerith also conforms to SE’s prevalent trend of having warrior-mage couples (Cecil and Rosa from FFIV, Squall and Rinoa in FFVIII, Zidane and Garnet in FFIX, Tidus and Yuna in FFX etc). I’ll definitely make more videos, I still have footage to edit and upload of my Remake playthrough (I’ve just been too busy to upload it all), and I’ll probably make some analysis videos eventually 😅I’m very glad the Clerith community is staying active and thriving, and that I can contribute to that somehow 😊

3 reasons why people think Cloti is canon : 1. Her appearance is to the liking of people in the west 2. Aerith dies in the first game, so according to them, by "default" Tifa wins 3. Throughout the years there has been countless fakenews to delegitimize Clerith in favor of Cloti, for example : "Cloud thinks he is Zack", "Aerith likes Cloud because she thinks he is Zack" , "Cloud had sex with Tifa before the final battle", "Cloud lives with Tifa in AC as a family". A bunch of fakenews that brainwashed people during all these years. Playing the remake, it is more obvious than ever that Cloud has feelings for Aerith, but they still try everything to change the narrative.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely - people weren’t ready for Aerith’s anime-esque appearance and personality so the loudest gaming demographic (ie frat boys) found her annoying and weak, favouring Tifa who was more akin to Lara Croft but with a more notable codependent streak which appeals to the fantasy of having a badass but demure girlfriend 😕 and yeah, the misconceptions I’ve seen come out of the fandom are staggering… I’m so glad Remake is educating people on just how biased FFVII information has been in the west for all these years

@LCardosed92

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway In Japan even the Cloti fans accept the fact that Clerith is the canon. They can ship whatever they want, but they can't change what is truly canon or not. The shipping wars only happened here in the West.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

That’s definitely true, from what I’ve seen… it seems that the shipping debates only really exist because of translation error/bias 😕

It's pretty late for me to comment, but before I focus on Rebirth, I wanted to talk about Remake. I'm very new to the game (well new as new can be, since I have been following Clerith specifically for 2 years now), and when I was first introduced to FF7 it was from a Clerith compilation. I instantly got the sense that they were, in fact, the main couple of the game. I legitimately thought that Clerith was the most popular ship out of all in the FF7 franchise, which is why I got genuinely surprised that Cloti was the one that was. I don't want to undermine Cloti's relationship because I can see why some do ship them, but I had always thought the chemistry of Clerith in the Remake was far more obvious (literally their scenes felt like it came out of a romance manga). I tried to be more open-minded and checked out the OG game, assuming that maybe Cloti was more obvious there, but even then I felt like Clerith was more of their focus. Maybe I'm just biased, but whenever I see Clerith shippers discuss the game it just feels right for me. I like Cloti's ship too because I do think they're cute, but for me Clerith is so much more deeper than it. (And also why I'm so happy about Rebirth!! minus the affinity system, which I agree shouldn't really have been added😅 cause it honestly does more harm than good in the game.)

@Kabbaway

3 ай бұрын

No worries, the only time it’s ever too late to comment on a video is if it never happens 💚 I played Final Fantasy III and IV (as well as a few spin-offs such as Dissidia) during the early 2010’s. My friend Anxrali had grown up watching their brothers play OG, so when they learned I had played FF before they showed me FFVII Abridged (not the TeamFourStar one) in 2014. That particular parody series didn’t play much into shipping, although by the end it did lean slightly Cloti. From there, my first proper introduction to FFVII was Advent Children and to me Clerith was blatant, especially in contrast to Cloud and Tifa’s strained and somewhat stagnant dynamic. I eventually looked into the rest of the Compilation which strengthened my impressions, including playing OG and Remake. It’s actually pretty funny that overall Sephikura (Sephiroth x Cloud) is the most popular ship in terms of fanworks (fanfics, fan art etc), but yeah Cloti is very vocal and prominent as well. Clerith does tend to get overlooked due to oversimplified process-of-elimination logic, but for me they represent FFVII perfectly, both separately and together. Yes it’s pretty cliche but it’s still nice to dabble in 😊💚

Hello! My first FF was FFX (which has a huge place in my heart) but my interest for VII sparked back in 2015 when the trailer for the Remake was launched. I played the Demo back on April and it got me even more interested but I didn't know about the main story at all. I did know about Aerith's death since that's a very iconic scene but from I had seen from afar until that point was that the main couple was Cloud and Tifa. That's what the fandom made me believe at first. Even though I wasn't invested in the VII story at all since my teenage years were invested on my love for FFX at the time, I had this curiosity with Aerith's character since the beginning. But a few days ago I started watching some cutscenes from the Remake and that's when I realized that I wanted to know Cloud's story. Long story short, things change so much when you do your own research on topics and I knew from all the facts, statements, and evidence I've seen that Aerith was Cloud's love. It is just too obvious, even if the developers don't say it verbally but their hints speak louder than words. Everyone can choose the ship that they want, but one thing is what we want for the main character and another thing is what the main character wants. And their love story has been misinterpreted for so long due to misconceptions and false information that I just wish people could look at the facts to know about this topic better. Thank you so much for your video and I'm sorry for the long rant. 😆💗

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Natalie, don’t worry rambling and discussion is most welcome here! I started out FF with 3 and 4 (as well as some of the many spin-off games) in my early teens on the DS, and it wasn’t until 2014 that my friend properly introduced me to FFVII. I’d casually read about the characters before, but it wasn’t until then that I took a particular interest in the story. I first watched an old parody series of the game, and then I watched Advent Children followed by Crisis Core cutscenes and finally played the OG (I also researched countless articles, forums and videos as well as other official materials throughout my teens). As soon as I watched AC(C), even with minimal context for the story, I knew straight away that Aerith wasn’t just a friend of Cloud’s... and I could see straight away that Cloud and Tifa weren’t a functional friendship, let alone relationship. Even without the mental health and relationship knowledge I have now, I could see that Tifa’s way of handling Cloud’s depression/PTSD was flatout insensitive and couldn’t understand how people could ship them. If I had been shown certain scenes without context I might have been able to understand Cloti, but knowing what I do about the big picture I simply can’t enjoy it. Each to their own when it comes to shipping preferences of course, but yeah when it comes to canonicity it’s heavily implied that Clerith have mutual, special feelings for each other and would be a couple if it weren’t for Aerith’s death. Regardless of whether it’s ever confirmed or not, there’s no denying that their bond is special and profound. Thanks for coming by, I always appreciate comments and discussion 😊

@nataliesophia215

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Thank you for replying me back and even though it's been only a few days that I started to dig in the FVII story I really love it and I can't imagine what it must feel like to see all this wars with the LTD all these years because from all the videos I've seen, people really love to ship Cloud and Tifa (and I'm not saying that is bad) but I don't know what the others see in their dynamics to be able to call it "romantic". It is clear as water that Tifa has feelings for Cloud but I've seen many people don't understand Cloud's character enough to see who really compliments him. And I agree 100% with you in all your insight about this because I was able to see it too. Both girls have very different personalities but it can be clearly seen with who Cloud feels more comfortable. I'm not trying to invalidate Tifa's feeling's or her personality but there's been many details that I've seen from the way that she acts around Cloud and it's so different from the way Aerith acts that makes the difference to who Cloud starts to open up and be himself. Another thing that I noticed is that they're A LOT of misconceptions with AC regarding Cloti. I still don't know how others could see romance scenes between Cloud and Tifa because even though I know Tifa has gone through difficult things too, all I saw was a very strained dynamic because they have a lot of communication issues and they completely erase the fact that main focus on the movie is Cloud's emotional state due to Aerith's death and how he's able to come terms with his guilt, but he never stops loving her. Those feelings are not for a friend, like they usually like to dismiss and it's very frustrating sometimes. I didn't need the whole context of the game's story to realize from a few cutscenes that Cloud and Aerith's story was the intended one. I do hope that with the Remake more people can learn about it because their story is so beautiful and tragic.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I couldn’t agree more. And I must say that even though there’s still some stubborn anti-Aeriths who cling onto such misconceptions, Remake does an awesome job of reasserting Aerith’s true personality, values and motives and outright debunking many of the fandom’s misinformed takes. From chatting with people more involved in the fandom things really started to heat up after Crisis Core, with people claiming that Zerith were soulmates and that Aerith never moved on from him. CC retconned a lot of things, bastardised Aerith’s characterisations and provided something for anti-Aerith/Clerith’s to cling to. Never mind the evidence provided by Dismantled, Maiden Who Travels The Planet (commissioned and greenlighted by the devs themselves and included in an Ultimania which is considered canon material) and the OG itself - Aerith was hurt by his disappearance but moved on as the years passed. She would still care for him as someone once important in her life, but she flatout rejects him and says she much prefers Cloud when they’re “reunited” in the Lifestream and the only reason she doesn’t let his soul merge back into the Lifestream is so he can motivate Cloud in his battle with Sephiroth in AC(C). A prominent issue I’ve found is that many Western fans project Western tropes onto the characters - eg girl-next-door and childhood sweetheart for Tifa, Mary Sue/prep girl and homewrecker onto Aerith, when those tropes don’t really align with Japanese archetypes. A lot of the nuance and essence is lost in translation and cultural differences. A lot of people also can’t look past their aesthetics and see that the girls are actually the opposite of how they appear. The devs enabling the debate to keep burning doesn’t help matters either... they say they love seeing the fanbase passionate, but things have gotten so toxic in many places you can’t even voice your preference without getting harassed, doxxed and threatened. If Remake is going to be the epilogue of the FFVII story, I think they should settle the love triangle debate too... it shouldn’t be such a big deal since there’s more to the story than who Cloud gets with, but things have festered out of control and until some concrete canon is clearly established things aren’t going to get better.

@nataliesophia215

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway It really is a pity that a character's importance has been cast aside just for the sake of a biased opinion such as a ship. Cultural differences really changed the perspective of people here on this side of the world and they've had a lot of trouble grasping the facts of the story, something that in Japan is not a problem because they did understand that Aerith and Cloud really loved each other. They have a different view of how love is portrayed and how love can be shown in other ways rather than our usual way (hugs, kisses, the usual "I love you") and just because their actions show love in a way that is expressed with other type of actions it doesn't mean that that love doesn't exist. Our conceptions of love and showing love are very different but that is something many people from here don't understand and don't take into account when looking for facts about Cloud's feelings towards Aerith and vice versa, dismissing the message of their connection and emotions completely. Even us, we didn't need to hear an 'I love you' to know they did love each other, which is a validation that the majority of Westerns need in order to believe it. I still can't grasp the fact that they're seen as friends, their connection even goes as far as Aerith 'engraved in his heart' and 'living in his consciousness'. She's the only that could help him with his guilt in AC of course, but she helped him to forgive himself and people automatically assumed that he moved on from her and that he had to be with Tifa by default since she was alive. I know that in real life it's normal to start anew with someone else if you want but Cloud's and Aerith's connection is so strong, he was even seen riding to see her at the end of AC. And to think that Aerith is a homewrecker is ridiculous. I can't believe they're people out there that hate her character so much and it saddens me because I think her character is amazing. Not that I'm saying that Tifa is bad but I don't know why there's so much hype about her. I guess her character design and personality is more inclined to the people's tastes here on the West. And the funny thing is that people claim that she represents women empowerment but many of her actions say otherwise. She has this codependency of Cloud throughout the majority of her story and I really haven't seen a lot of character development on her part as much as I'd liked. Even if she's a tough girl on the outside with her fighting skills and her use of leather in her clothing she still has this dream of having a hero and she's always pushing that agenda onto Cloud instead of developing her character in a way that she can move on from her past with Cloud and become a strong independent woman without needing Cloud for that, because he doesn't show any signs to believe he reciprocates her feelings. I really hope they can redeem her character to something amazing because from what I've seen so far, she needs character improvement. And that's a contrast I love from Aerith because her appearance is the girly one with her pink dress and ribbon but she is a very strong woman, which is a nice contrast because it reflects on who is she as a character once you get to know her. She doesn't need to be tough- looking to show her strength and it really makes me sad how others react to her character in the Remake for example, because they're surprised to see her acting in the way she does in the Remake and they shouldn't be surprised, that's how she's always been! I'm really glad that they're taking her personality out of OG and even with the cutscenes with Elmyra on Remake, we can clearly see her outgoing personality even as a little girl, not because Zack influenced her to act like that (which is something that really bothers me of CC because they really changed her personality there and that gives more reasons for people to think that Zack left a huge impact on her life and they automatically assume they're connected or something like that, but that only happens to the people that don't really know her character). And thank you for having the time to reply, I don't usually have someone to talk to about this so exchanging insight about VII with you has been great! 😁

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

No worries, I enjoy discussions like these! In fact, the pinned comment and its thread is entirely made up of my discussions with two other users which we’ve been casually having for the last few months! We all have similar views to you, so don’t worry you’re not alone (I wasn’t kidding when I said ramblings are welcome here!) 🙂

There ain't really a love triangle here Cloud loves Aerith Aerith loves Cloud Tifa loves Cloud that's it

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Jay Yothanan yeah, it’s only a love triangle in the sense that two girls are attracted to the same guy. No official evidence ever insinuates that Cloud has equal feelings for both girls, and in-universe evidence shows a clear distinction in his feelings and treatment of both girls. Clerith have so much chemistry as well as emotional and spiritual depth, whereas Cloti are described as incompatible and are constantly miscommunicating/avoiding each other. To me it’s very clear who’s the intended ship, but I guess time will tell whether SE will flatout confirm anything.

@pix00l

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I honestly believe that it will be revealed in this remake ^^ call me crazy but I am sure that FF7REMAKE is a sequal to FF7 rather than a "remake" it's clear when you consider how the 1st part end with the message "Unknown Journey Awaits"

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely, it’s a sort of do-over thing where we get the chance to make things right and settle things once and for all. I’m very excited for the next parts! 😄

@pix00l

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Let's pray we won't have to wait 4-5 years for the next part 😭

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, crossing my fingers AND toes! 😅

Clotis/Zeriths: Tifa and Zack Cleriths: Cloud and Aerith

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

The correlation between favourite characters and shipping is always so fascinating 💚

agreed, I've always gotten a sense of coldness from Tifa and Cloud's childhood relationship... even so, I don't completely dismiss that there is some sort of romantic presence between them. I think that's the crux, the fact that both have Cloud's heart in SOME WAY... but, I am definitely biased towards Aerith, I find her irresistible

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your comment! 🙂 I think they could have potential if they were able to resolve their communication issues and become more compatible, but so far the material has never shown or indicated that they were on the way to that happening. They’ll seem to resolve their issues, but then it’ll resurface in a later discussion because their incompatibility hasn’t been properly addressed. It’d take a lot of effort as individuals and as a couple for them to work, but I don’t think that’s the outcome the devs are going for, when they’ve had 23+ years to show that happening but have favoured Clerith themes, merch, cameos/references etc. Ultimately I agree that Tifa definitely has a place in Cloud’s heart as she was a big part of his childhood, but I don’t think it’s the same as Aerith’s impact.

@sathrene

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Its quite tough and a bit sad because I can't deny Tifa greatly compliments cloud physically, and perhaps in the business context, like perhaps they work extremely well together as fighting 'partners' and it could potentially go beyond that... but even the wording of having to 'become compatible' means there are some things that just don't belong, to which I agree again. I do actually hope we sort of a true bridging between Cloud and Aerith... she always struck me as being his 'other', as in, they were made for eachother. It's weird, though I am proudly Cloud x Aerith I still want Tifa to get her moment... The devs really made a brilliant job of splitting people in half for the characters ahaha

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. Couples are definitely encouraged to compromise, but if you have to break and reform your entire being (especially concerning deep aspects such as values, beliefs etc) just to work, it means you’re not being truthful or loving each other for your natural selves. Tifa fixates on Cloud’s SOLDIER status - she only noticed him in the first place when all her friends left and she discovered that Cloud was potentially going to be strong and famous. I’d love to write that off as her just being a 13 year old girl at the time and that she grew from that, but it persists into the events of the OG. After Cloud has his breakdown she even says that she misses his cocky stance while telling people what to do. And whenever Cloud shows his true, vulnerable self she berates him and basically tells him to suck it up. Tough love isn’t the helpful approach people think it is - it’s invalidating, insulting and toxic when you’re on the receiving end, especially if you’re inherently a sensitive individual who just needs some empathy and gentle encouragement. I’m obviously rooting for Clerith, but you’re right - despite my feelings about her, I do hope Tifa gets a moment. My hope for her is that she finally gets a character arc where she realises the damage she’s caused and learns to overcome her codependence on Cloud. I feel like it stems from her need for a connection to the past since everything else from her childhood has been killed and destroyed, and honestly I think she needs to let go of the past in order to become a more empowered person who can confidently carve her own future. Tifa is seen as a feminist icon for so many people (I personally don’t see it but I respect that other people do), so having her be able to conquer her traumas and insecurities so that she can move forward, with or without a partner, would be really nice for her.

@sathrene

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Really good point about Tifa dismissing Cloud's vulnerability, this is really where we see them sort of constantly operating in facades. That alone is probably why Cloti is missing alot of points for me personally. It's the first thing I noticed when going through the remake...especially when they reunited.... she noted that he was "losing his edge"-- something that I didn't think was necessary to point out.... Rather, I think actually it was a bit uncomfortable for Cloud to hear that from her (my thoughts) I think, Tifa is sometimes is harsher than people realize, And, I wish this was a more notable observation for her as people have always pitted Aerith as being 'condescending' or 'fake' -- things I literally never understood. Aerith is an S-tier character for me. I could probably write an essay on her. There really is coldness and lack of understanding and it all circles back to "well, Tifa is this way, Aerith is that way"--and too much change would make them switch roles. I just think her way of offering support is much too linear and objective whereas Aerith has always been an 'out of the box' character. This goes for Tifa's design as well, which I think is what tragically gets her the public's preference... tragic because well, Tifa is actually a relatively cool character in her writing. I had once seen someone note that she was "too perfect" of a character, and that It didn't make sense she was shy to a detriment yet had an ideal and unrealistic body type that was flaunted by her designers... hate to say I agree, and It becomes really vague whether she is a feminist Icon for women or for men. All in all, I value Tifa in that she has the potential to be one of my favorites once she becomes... er, softer? More empathic? Less of a plotline accessory? But, we shall see hahaha. I am happy to see Clerith shippers who wish to see Tifa improve :)

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely agree, there’s a lot of misconceptions about both girls... often from people who either haven’t viewed the full context or those who have but cherry-pick what to acknowledge. Either way, I want Tifa to be held accountable for her flaws and mistakes so that she can properly grow and develop as a character, to give more agency than just being a satellite orbiting Cloud; then I’d be able to respect her more. I dislike Tifa for her personality and actions, but I guess I’m more so annoyed and disappointed in the writers for phoning it in with her when we clearly see via Aerith that they can write nuanced, complex and empowered female characters. Perhaps they never intended for Tifa to be so popular or they weren’t trying to put her on equal footing with Aerith, but either way they could’ve done much more with Tifa than giving her every sexist trope ever - demure and loyal but selectively badass in certain contexts for sex appeal, unrealistic body proportions, needless focus on her body in the clothing, choreography and cinematography, entire character revolves around the male protagonist etc. I have to make it clear that her design and personality would be valid in real life (I don’t condone slut or body shaming), but my issue is when female characters with these traits are designs by men and these traits are emphasised for little to no story relevance, and is more for fanservice and marketing than anything else. If it were to serve a narrative purpose like exploring her body image or how her body affects her training then fair enough, but that’s clearly not the case which is sad. I guess only time will tell what they decide to do with all this... one thing’s for sure though: they’ve utilised Tifa for her sex appeal pretty much since the beginning, and as far as Remake’s concerned they’ve only been doubling down on that so far 😕

Fighter + Magic girl, like in all the best ff stories. I like also cloud & tifa togheter but i see them more like friends/brothers or first forgotten (childhood) love. While in case of cloud & aerith is the second (serious) love for both of them. Just opinion btw

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

All good! 🙂 it’s a very common JRPG trope to have the fighter and magic girl couple in some form or another, and it has manifested itself in the broader fantasy genre as well. And I agree, that’s how I read the two pairings too. Cloud liked Tifa when they were kids in a time where he desperately wanted acknowledgement and validation as a result of his ostracism, while Tifa started showing interest in their teens when Cloud voiced his intentions to become a SOLDIER and when all her other peers had left. They’ve never really been on the same page about very much, including the nature of their relationship. While Cloud and Aerith seem to get each other pretty well and have more mutuality in their relationship. It’s definitely valid to have a juvenile first crush before going on to develop a more serious connection with someone else, and that’s what I think happened in this case. Tifa represents the past for Cloud (a past which is haunted by a number of traumatic events and memories and which he seeks to move on from), while Aerith represents the future where they can both start afresh and live a happier, more peaceful life than what they’ve both been through in their earlier years.

As a joke I always say Cloud should be with Zack, but in reality I love Clerith

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly, I headcanon Cloud as being bi. I wasn’t a fan of CC, but one of the things I did like was Cloud and Zack’s interactions. They were so cute and wholesome, and I can see Cloud being demisexual/romantic but also liking both men and women. Cloud really does well with people like Zack and Aerith - cheerful extroverts who are inclusive, optimistic and able to accomodate his emotional needs. Trivial differences but fundamental similarities is a good basic template for any successful relationship, romantic or otherwise. Clerith is my FFVII OTP, but Clack would’ve been cute too... my gay heart can’t resist shipping them ☺️💚

@Halepeno

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Honestly with the way Cloud is, he needs someone like that to pull him out of his shell I really like how he softens his facade when he's around Aerith in the Remake and how he told Zack about his hopes and dreams

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree more! 😊

@Halepeno

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway If I'm being completely honest I'm excited to talk about these things with someone as passionate as I am about it, I mean yeah it's just a ship, but there is so much more that goes into you know, you can feel the human connection between the characters and it's like your watching your friends from a distance or at least that's the type of feeling I get that's why I became an author

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I couldn’t agree more! One of the things I enjoy most about games is their ability to tell immersive, interactive stories. As an aspiring author myself who struggles to read due to difficulty processing info without visuals (I’m in the process of being tested for ASD), games have been great sources of inspiration for me 😊

OMG I'm so late! THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video, I started ff7 last year, and thought Cloud and Tifa were made for each other. Everyone was talking abt them, saying they're more realistic and complex, and that apparently this is "how a real relationship works" while Clerith seemed too fantasist, simple, and "Cloud can't fall in love with someone in 2 days/weeks". First, how the hell having complex and problems is more realistic? It is if you're in a toxic relationship, or if you have issues that even you partner can't help you with. Bc Aerith and Cloud seemed "too cute" or "too fantasist" it wasn't real, like if you are happy in a simple relationship, then it's not really. Really?? But I definitely became a Clerith, their interactions seemed so much more natural than Cloti ones, Cloud is more opened and yes, Aerith is definitely interested by CLOUD. Cloti and Zerith hate Clerith a lot, so they always use the Zacloud argument. In japan, this misunderstanding doesn't even exist. I really hope this time, Cloud and Aerith will be happy together😕

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for commenting! It seems that Remake has changed quite a few people’s minds regarding the love triangle which has very very fascinating to witness 😁 It deeply troubles me when people romanticise realism and being flawed when talking about Cloti... as someone who is getting married to her long-term partner in just over a month and who suffered mental abuse throughout her childhood the red flags for Cloti are far too blatant to ignore or forgive. Yes realistic couples disagree and may argue on occasion, BUT they shouldn’t be awkward and downright miserable and miscommunicating all the time; one shouldn’t be trying to force a connection so hard that the other pulls away; one shouldn’t get “complicated feelings” and get “peevish” when the other thinks about a dead mutual loved one to the point of trivialising the other person’s grief; one shouldn’t actively lie and enable the other to be gaslit to the point of insanity just because they “didn’t want them to go” and “wanted to observe how their memories were different”. Forgive my bluntness, but anyone with a competent understanding of mental health, relationships and abuse knows that is messed up. What I always find very ironic is that nobody ever acknowledges how love works. You don’t have to know or understand everything about someone to fall in love with them. Love can be about acknowledging how someone makes you feel and wanting to learn more about them and becoming more intimately connected. I know it’s cliche, but love is more of a journey than a destination - it’s always developing for as long as the people involved mutually put the care and effort into the relationship. When you think about what Clerith went through in their lives (lonely/ostracised childhoods, traumatically orphaned, abused by a scientific faction of a tyrannical corporation etc) as well as the quality of their time together (fighting side-by-side, feeling safe enough to be vulnerable and open up, being able to enjoy simple pleasures together etc), Clerith is actually pretty realistic - when you find such an emotionally fulfilling and validating connection, of course it’s going to be euphoric and you’re gonna wanna explore it as far as you can. We didn’t get to see how they’d handle domestic duties, but we’re already shown that they’re very compatible and able to deal with much more drastic situations together (again, never underestimate how much bonding you can form with a co-survivor/teammate in the battlefield or an extreme situation in general). Obviously Cloud and Aerith have their personality flaws - Cloud is self-blaming and standoffish while Aerith can be nosy and easily get in over her head, and these definitely affect their relationship, but the beauty is in the way they manage to work with their strengths and flaws to help the other person with theirs. So they rarely have serious issues, because they approach their differences positively and constructively instead of becoming avoidant or passive-aggressive (like a certain other pairing does). At least here in the West we’re taught to be wary of too-good-to-be-true scenarios, and I can fully understand why that’s the case. However you simultaneously see the media overglorify toxic relationships and traits by trying to sell the characters as being “flawed and realistic”, which can be even more dangerous if people take such messages to heart (contrary to some opinions, what media (including entertainment) we consume definitely does influence our values/beliefs/opinions etc).

@stavcy

10 ай бұрын

It’s the western fan base. It’s crazy, the things that are normalized here.

@Kabbaway

10 ай бұрын

To be fair, toxic/abusive relationships are rampant EVERYWHERE, including Japan (there’s a statistically high amount of sexual assault/harassment there). I think it may be because the West has gotten used to tougher, sexier female characters like Tifa being the heroine/love interest, and see those like Aerith as relics of the 50’s housewife mentality; some of us have forgotten the nuance that physical toughness doesn’t translate to emotional maturity or wisdom, and that femininity in itself is NOT regressive. The childhood friends to lovers” trope is more popular here too, where in East Asian cultures (as far as I’ve heard) tend to favour the newcomer who guides the protagonist on a lifechanging journey (the childhood friend apparently stagnates them too much by dwelling on the past). Aerith fits this trope perfectly, breaking Cloud out of his shell by focusing on the future, while Tifa (whether consciously or not) holds him back by constantly reminding him of his (quite terrible) past 💚

@stavcy

10 ай бұрын

@@Kabbaway true!

Thank you for this video,it's really sad just how much of the english FF7 community has a bias against clerith or even aerith herself because she ain't eye candy and easily fetishisable like tifa. I never saw the appeal of cloti since their relationship just felt like it was either always one sided or even toxic,with what we can actually see in FF7(Re) it feels like cloti only exists for fanservice sake,since whenether SE doesn't write things with the intend of fanservice,cloti always felt like tifa and cloud are just strangers acting like they know eachother when they have never met before,especially in AC/C. People will probably still continue shipping them tho because boobs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>chemistry But it's not my position to judge people based on what they ship.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I honestly feel like the devs didn’t really intend for Cloti to be an equal love rival for Aerith, like she was just there for replay value and to fill the female rep quota (since Yuffie is optional in OG). Then when Tifa ended up more popular than expected they wrote themselves into a hole trying not to piss off Tifa/Cloti fans. In saying that, they’ve always maintained a more favourable view of Clerith, albeit subtly behind layers of fake neutrality. The thing with Tifa is that it’s not necessarily her huge chest or revealing clothes themselves which I have a problem with - it’s the devs’ overall sexualisation of her as a female character (ie conforming to unrealistic, misogynistic anime tropes in her design and personality, cinematography, boob physics, having in-game characters sexualise her and enabling many parts of the fandom to do the same). She could’ve easily been a genuinely complex, nuanced and strong woman who just so happened to have a big chest and revealing clothes, but because the devs made very deliberate “artistic” choices it’s clear they only gave her such traits to cater to a certain demographic... just look at the massive “controversy” about Tifa’s bra size supposedly being nerfed in Remake 😕 if Tifa were a real person, her body/clothing wouldn’t be an issue at all... my concern is that she is very clearly the creation of cishet men for cishet men, gratifying a specific kind of fantasy of having a chick who can beat shit up but obey their every whim while having little substance outside of her connection to the protagonist. There’s nothing empowering about this, it’s blatant objectification

@arwinado

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway agreed,couldn't have said it better myself, even if i myself have never heard of the controversy over tifa's bra size it sounds so dumb i don't think putting time and energy into researching it is worth it😕 I still stand by my statement though that i feel like clerith is heavily underrated in the english community,considering the fact that on some forums and stuff bashing clerith is encoraged and earns you brownie points😕 Thank god remake seems like it's trying to fix aerith's reputation in the english fandom,and so far it seems like it's kinda working since there seems to be alot more cleriths now.

There is nothing final about Final Fantasy but here are some SPOILERS for team Tifa and Zack: The Hollow song immediately plays in Remake when Aerith departs from Cloud to deliver flowers to Leaf House. The Hollow song is about Aerith in Cloud’s POV. This is confirmed by the developers. Nojima wrote the lyrics with a “ballad for a man who has lost something important to him.” Advent Children- Cloud and Tifa live in separate bedrooms. Marlene sleeps with Tifa. (Cloud and Tifa have a “friend” relationship- per Wikipedia FF7 synopsis.) He doesn’t tell Tifa that he has Geostigma and is gone once he builds his bike and starts his courier business. Tifa obviously wants more from Cloud- hence her argument with him in front of Reno and Rude. But Cloud doesn’t answer her question. When Denzel, who Cloud found at Aerith’s church, looks through Cloud’s phone- Tifa’s contact in Cloud’s phone is listed as SEVENTH HEAVEN- not Tifa Bae. Cloud doesn’t return her calls for months. He sleeps at Aerith’s church. (That’s not love, that’s avoidance.) At the end of AC, Zack is waiting for Aerith but they do not touch. Cloud promises to be with his “family” at a point, but the end credits show him riding around fields of yellow lilies that symbolize Aerith. Again, another failed promise Cloud made to Tifa, like at the Nibelheim water tower. Crisis Core- Zack buys Aerith her iconic pink bow and perfume. He likes her and she likes him. But Zack’s priorities are with SOLDIER- not Aerith. He builds her a flower wagon- not a commitment or house. He tells others to protect her. She writes him many letters and they go unanswered. There is also Cissnei, who Zack likes… but team Zack doesn’t go there and ship Zissnei 🤣 Cloud is not Zack’s persona after they were both experimented on. Zack is HYPER “like a puppy” quotes Sephiroth. Zack is overconfident. Zack has the opposite personality of awkward Cloud in CC. Cloud carries Zack’s SOLDIER/fighting attributes because he was only an infantryman in CC and admired Zack who was First Class. FF7OG- the games algorithm gives Aerith a 50 point lead over any other characters in the game for the Gold Saucer date scene with Cloud and a 20 point advantage over Tifa Lockhart. Lockhart… heart that is locked. Cloud Strife… Strife = conflict. Aerith Gainsborough… a gain of 50 points🤣 Mobius FF- This is where TIMELINES are prevalent. Cloud is given an optional crystal to go into the future from the Fairy Echo who is dressed like Aerith. Cloud takes the crystal to go to the Promised Land. Cloud says, “The past is the past. I want to go to a place where everything is new.” World of Final Fantasy- Terra to Cloud, “Will killing this man (Sephiroth) bring back the woman (Cloud) lost? To take your LOVE for her (Aerith) and turn it into hate?…” Cloud doesn’t heed her advice and leaves anyhow, like Cloud typically does, always searching for Aerith. Kingdom Hearts 2- End credits of the game show various canon couples from Disney and Cloud and Aerith are featured. We all know, or should know, what Aerith says to Zack in The Maiden Who Travels the Planet… that Zack is a playboy and Aerith isn’t romantically interested in Zack. Aerith loves Cloud and Cloud loves Aerith. The developers and writers say so. Kotch and Scotch declare Cloud and Aerith the winners in Remake. *HIGH FIVE* Claudia Strife gives Aerith her blessing. Elmyra has the ol’ mother-in-law, overbearing attitude down with Cloud from the moment he steps in her house. Nojima’s book, On the Way to a Smile, Episode Tifa- Is the biggest insight into Cloud and Tifa’s rocky ship, other than what’s displayed on Cloud’s phone and him sleeping in Aerith’s church reveals about him in Advent Children. Honestly, Cloud and Aerith’s LOVE relationship is so obvious, that I think the other ships are just triggering negative reactions. But why deny the game developers?

@Kabbaway

8 ай бұрын

Not only that, but Traces of Two Pasts and Ever Crisis provide even more context: TotP * Reinforces how scarcely Cloud and Tifa interacted as kids, with her assuming they were close despite not knowing how they “usually” talked and admitting the number of interactions they’d had were surprising few. Emphasising this is how she broke down over Cloud unceremoniously leaving for the military without saying goodbye, because she knew a lack of meaningful connection permeated their entire relationship. * Reveals that Tifa was AWARE that Cloud wasn’t at fault for her accident (despite not clearly remembering the event itself due to the coma), but failed to challenge the narrative of her friends or intervene in Nibelheim’s scapegoating of Cloud. * Indicates that Tifa developed feelings for Cloud at the water tower AFTER having a narratively hamfisted memory of her mother Thea calling Cloud prettier than Sephiroth (weird since they were both minors), while also reinforcing her glorification of his would-be SOLDIER status. Once again, it insinuates that her feelings for Cloud have always been rooted in nostalgia for her lost family, home and childhood damsel fantasies. EC (Cloud’s Story Quest) ~ kzread.info/dash/bejne/hn-MktJthtnfg6w.html * Shows Cloud’s perspective of his reunion with Tifa just before the start of OG FFVII. * EXPLICITLY reinforces that reuniting with Tifa was what turned his fake persona from a conscious coping mechanism into a supernaturally-induced memory issue. It was directly designed by his Jenova cells replicating Tifa’s romanticised perception of him, warping his sense of identity to match. It shows multiple incidents of her requests/inquiries triggering his headaches, flashbacks of Zack’s personality and sudden changes in behaviour to reflect his fragmented memories * Displays their lack of communication and healthy boundaries, with Tifa continually pressuring Cloud not to leave despite repeated refusals on his part. She immediately invokes their “childhood friend” status (which we know she was aware was an exaggeration) to rake him into working for her.

@Locustskies

8 ай бұрын

@@Kabbaway Yes! ToTP is a great book. Tifa is a spoiled girl and part of the Four Fiends... Cloud not included. That says a lot. She didn't know what she had until he was gone. I loved the part of her story when she had to survive on her own, though, very intriguing. As for EC- You are absolutely right! Winter Salt's drink ingredients are 'confidential'... lol. Cloud is not much of a drinker.

@Kabbaway

8 ай бұрын

Definitely, the parts of ToT that I DID like were when she was learning to fight and making friends with Avalanche. Despite my unfavourable opinions of her, I do genuinely want her to have more beyond chasing Cloud and being voyeuristically sexualised by devs, NPCs, cinematography and marketing alike. One thing I didn’t enjoy was the unnecessary drama of the non-consensual medical photos of her chest. It’s just a shallow way of manufacturing trauma for Tifa (and has no real relevance to anything in the game) and the fact she was a minor at the time is also a big yikes. This leads into the bigger issue I had is that Nojima clearly wanted to retroactively show Tifa being uncomfortable with being sexualised by everyone around her more often, but then still sexualises her in other media anyway. Making her object to it more obviously doesn’t negate the devs’ weirdness in how they’ve always chosen to depict her. ToTP and Remake were made around the same time, and yet despite ToTP claiming Tifa’s a sort of business prodigy and more than her attractiveness, Remake proceeds to show her immediately outsourcing negotiation to Cloud and the camera zooming into her chest while almost being crushed by a shipping container in her grief for the destroy Seventh Heaven. I can only hope Tifa’s character change is in line with her weaponised incompetence around Cloud, but still the objectification of her by everything else is unnecessary.

Gurlllll. I’m so glad that someone here loves aerith like have people not seen how amazing she is? And advent children just adds so much to their relationship like ahshsjsjsjwn

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

I’ve noticed that it’s really hard to find unironic Aerith appreciation on the Internet... between the death jokes/memes, character erasure, mischaracterisation and even misogynistic slander at times, it makes me really sad that the devs put their hearts and souls into making Aerith an impactful, pivotal character to convey such a heavy message about life and death, only for her to receive hate on an almost mainstream scale. I’m so glad the Remake is reminding people of her true personality and helping to restore her reputation; it’s been wonderful seeing a resurgence in Aerith appreciation in recent months, as well as appreciation for Clerith too 😊

@kn9926

4 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Well done. And agreed. You mention playing this in 2014, I believe. I played the OG when it came out, so frankly am myself appalled at all of the co-opted retcon and follow-up nonsense that has come after it. So I blame the developers and SE for some of the nastiness (the way they have to co-opt and change things to build up Zack at Cloud's expense is ridiculous. Many complain Aerith's personality is completely mangled as well). You have to realize there are a lot of FF7 universe fans that weren't even born when the OG came out and have had their viewpoints built by these at times incongruous installments if they played/watched them first and founded their viewpoints from there. Her character in the remake is spot on and expanded with her in the OG, which was so nice to see. Frankly they did a good job of that with every character. But then they finish it by having her say that they'll change themselves if they change the future...will have to wait to see what that means I guess.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry I didn’t see your comment here K N! I’m only a year younger than the OG and didn’t become aware of the story until I was 16. I guess I was lucky that my friend was knowledgeable about the OG and showed me OG stuff first, followed by AC(C) and then the rest so I was able to see to appreciate the intended story. The way I interpret that line of Aerith’s is that one’s actions in the present directly affects their future and who they become, so she’s essentially saying that their choices now are changing the people they’ll become (when you think about it, if Aerith doesn’t die Cloud could become a very different person from who we see in post-OG Comp).

Clerith is always obvious to me 😘

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Same here. People are free to have their own preferences, but to me Clerith is by far the most plausible ship.

I love you so much!!!! I couldn’t agree more! I accept cloti being a ship many support. But Clerith is clearly more viable than cloti. 🎀🎀🎀🎀🎀

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the support! 🤗 I definitely respect that a lot of people ship Cloti and everyone’s entitled to their own, but in my opinion Clerith is the ship SE have favoured and heavily implied. I also enjoy their dynamics much more - Clerith are trivially different in their personalities which keeps things fresh and exciting, but are fundamentally similar in their values and experiences which ensures their compatibility. Having trivial differences but fundamental similarities is my golden rule when it comes to relationships, because it’s much more likely to last this way than the other way around. At their core, they’re both lonely children who were excluded and alienated, suffered at the hands of Shinra, who never knew their fathers and who witnessed the death of their mothers. Hence they’re able to understand and relate to each other even if they don’t know the full details about each other’s pasts. Clerith is about moving on from the past and developing a sense of belonging with someone. Cloti, on the other hand, suffers from its preoccupation with the past as well as overemphasis on trivial similarities with fundamental differences - a recipe for disaster in ANY relationship, romantic or otherwise. Cloud just wants to move on from the past because there’s nothing constructive for him there because of his ostracism, while Tifa won’t stop trying to relive it since her childhood marked her glory days as a popular, pampered only-girl with an affluential father in a small country town. Cloud was lonely and poor as a kid, while Tifa was a social butterfly with a decently fancy home and belongings. Their upbringings alone make them fundamentally different, as their experiences have shaped their values. Cloud internalises blame for everything around him even if it’s not his fault, while Tifa is quick to blame others and demand that they change yet will not take the time to reflect on her own actions (she occasionally blames herself, but never does anything about it which just comes off as pity-seeking). Tifa milks her and Cloud’s childhood promise, and has a tendency to project her childhood fantasies of a dashing hero onto him, when he simply isn’t that guy and never truly wanted to be - he just wanted to be noticed, and thought SOLDIER would get him that... he never wanted the fame and glory. Aerith can see that because as a Cetra she’s exceptionally perceptive, but Tifa only sees things at face value and continues to misunderstand Cloud.

@AerithXSerah

4 жыл бұрын

I try not to be biased and toxic. I genuinely hate the cloti ship. I personally agree that cloud and Tifa would be healthier being a part. Especially with the toxic relationship that surrounded them as children. I’ve been a Clerith supporter since 1997 now and forever. 🎀

@AerithXSerah

4 жыл бұрын

Aerith has also never made cloud work for her affection. She’s always given it to him and is his rock throughout the game and afterwards especially in the film. They are just perfect for each other!

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

I couldn’t agree more. Even when he’s being curt or awkward, she knows just what to do to get him to loosen up and be more vulnerable - a gentle and encouraging approach with a pinch of humour, because she understands why he acts the way he does and knows how to de-escalate it. Tifa, on the other hand, tries to be nice but is quick to snap and make passive aggressive, inconsiderate or even outright toxic statements about his behaviour (eg what we see in Case of Tifa and Advent Children). Again, their experiences determine their values and actions. Tifa was practically spoiled as a kid, and therefore she acts somewhat entitled half of the time and indulges in superficial factors such as reputation and business, which makes her appear petty and two-faced. Aerith, on the other hand, was abused by a huge corporation for her race/abilities, hence influencing her empathy, resilience and patience.

I agree that Cloti is toxic

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for commenting! Anyone with even the most basic knowledge on mental health and psychology could see how incompatible and toxic their dynamic is (the channel Psych2Go has videos summarising key traits in toxic people/relationships, and I’ve found that Tifa/Cloti fit much of the criteria). That’s not to say that they can never improve, there’s always the potential for growth and improvement; it’s just that the devs and plot never really show us any indication that the two are willing to put in the effort to improve themselves and their relationship. Tifa won’t take a serious look inside herself and make any significant efforts to improve her mental health and therefore let go of her unhealthy attachments, while Cloud internalises blame too much to forgive himself for things out of his control; plus, he’s too self-blaming and loyal to his friends to ever realise or call Tifa our on how her behaviour affects him. Furthermore, Tifa is clearly more invested in their connection than he is, which itself is a red flag for any type of relationship - platonic, romantic or otherwise. I certainly don’t have a problem with people shipping it - ships don’t necessarily have to be dictated by canonicity and should be determined by the type of character dynamics you enjoy, and I understand that some people enjoy toxic fictional relationships while not condoning that stuff in real life. What I do have a problem with is people shipping Cloti simply to gratify and glorify Tifa while mischaracterising Cloud and even degrading him, the canonical plot points and devs statements in the process. I don’t like how some Cloti shippers feel the need to intimidate, bully, gaslight and even dox and threaten fans of other ships, all because they want to feel validated by convincing others that Cloti is canon. Shipping a canon relationship shouldn’t be a symbol of higher status within a fanbase, and you shouldn’t ship something just to be on the “winning team” - again, it’s about your own personal preferences. I ship Clerith first and foremost because I enjoy their chemistry as well as the symbolism and impact of their bond, and it just so happens that the story elements, dev statements and marketing which allowed me to fall in love with Clerith also convinced me that they’re most likely to have been the intended couple. I’d still ship them even if the devs decided to make Cloti or another relationship canon instead.

I fully agree with you on this. While I'm not super well-versed in the FF7 universe, I've definitely seen enough of the Remake and OG scenes, watched AC and whatnot to determine that I fully agree with you. Now, I love both Tifa and Aerith. But after watching Advent Children with no clue about the story, it really rubbed me the wrong way seeing Tifa exploding on Cloud who is obviously still experiencing PTSD, depression, and so much shame after losing Aerith. While I understand Tifa's frustrations in Cloud distancing himself, even in the Remake they have absolutely NO communication. None. Cloud is not generally an open person and Tifa holds in her feelings a lot. Their history on top of their own unresolved issues makes for a *very* unhealthy couple in my eyes. Yes, Tifa is the last girl alive out of the love triangle and yes Cloud and Tifa do have feelings for each other. But whether it's AC or the Remake, getting any kind of discussion about their feelings is like pulling out teeth. It's always "it's nothing", so Tifa doesn't pry any further. Both have tough exteriors and are introverted which is nice to have in common if their relationship wasn't so strained. One thing I love about the Remake is all the parallels between Cloud's relationship with the two girls, especially how expressive and talkative he becomes around Aerith. Sure, he sighs and groans, but if he wanted to be alone (which isn't something he wants) then he can easily ditch her if he wanted to. Fact is Aerith has been one of the first people to be so inclusive with him. With Tifa, she chose hanging out with Avalanche and not even trying to fight for him to join (like Jessie). She sat the bar a stool away from him. She usually hides her vulnerable side (besides in time in her cutscene where Cloud really had no idea how to respond and just did what Barret did earlier). She tried high fiving him and he didn't reciprocate. When he has mental breakdowns, she doesn't try to comfort him. She calls his eyes scary. Meanwhile, Aerith does the opposite! She refuses to let him be all alone because she knows how that feels and sees through him. She scoots closer to him on the playground, opens up to him, and he listens. Aerith teaches Cloud to high five, even showing disappointment which Tifa would normally hide and Cloud responded by trying harder to learn. When Cloud is taunted by Sephiroth, she holds his hand and calls to him and Cloud for the first time *brings up Sephiroth* which he never told Tifa. Aerith thinks his eyes are gorgeous. To top it all off, Cloud who HATES physical contact has grabbed Aerith's arm twice while worrying about her and tried to grab her a third time in his Resolve when she tells him not to fall for her, even asserts himself when he usually just puts up a front of not caring. There's so much substance in this Remake that really depicts their bond, a natural bond.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your comment, very well put! Apart from hearing bits and pieces of the overall story from a friend, I started with Advent Children. So many people claim that Cloud and Tifa act like a married couple with kids in the movie, but what I saw was a pair of incompatible roommates - one of them beaten down by life and passively suicidal, the other bitter and resentful that the former isn't the strong emotional crotch she wants. Even as a 16 year old who was ignorant about most mental health issues Tifa's "tough love" tactic rubbed me the wrong way, especially how she never exhibits remorse and smiles in a "I told you so" way at the end. Without any of OG's context, Tifa's whole characterisation in AC(C) is pretty unfavourable. As I looked into more of the overall story, I found that that flawed characterisation was always there and never really got addressed or improved - she would say one line of remorse and her mistakes would be forgotten despite their literally catastrophic consequences. I love flawed and angsty characters as much as anyone, but only when they have some sort of "redemption arc" where they acknowledge their flaws and learn and grow from them, like Cloud does or Zuko from The Legend of Aang does. One of my biggest issues with Tifa is that she never learns or grows, her flaws are swept under the rug with cookie-cutter descriptions of her being "a good friend" with good intentions and concerns, but as many people know good intentions NEVER override bad consequences. It really feels like SE tried to have their cake and eat it too with Tifa - they wanted a flawed character, but wanted her to be likeable, as if they didn't want to fully commit to having a morally grey female character on the "good guys" team. I really hope they fix that in future instalments of the Remake project - as much as I don't like Tifa, I'm completely open to her working on her issues and making peace with her own traumas and insecurities 💚

@nohemi6899

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I definitely agree. I hope they do put more into her character development this time around. Either way, I'm going to fully enjoy seeing Cloud and Aerith together once more. My only gripe is the whole Zack revival? I do love Zack and love seeing him done justice in the Remake in terms of appearance. I saw the details and theories, but obviously it's all theory. It just feels so unnecessary to have him back other than for flashbacks. Maybe a DLC, but it just blows my mind that people are fine with Zack being back, but Aerith has to stay dead. I'm not really a fan of timeline stuff. The white background made me think he's honestly just dead in the Lifestream like in AC. It's just confusing.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

@@nohemi6899 I had similar issues with Zack being back at first, but as time's gone on I have faith that it's for a thematic and narratively important reason. Of course we can only theorise for now, but ideas such as him still being dead but his scenes being in an alternate timeline feel plausible (especially if the devs' comments that Crisis Core Reunion won't change much of the story are to be believed). Based on Rebirth's trailer, Cloud's identity is likely going to be addressed and resolved much quicker than in OG, perhaps with Zack's survival and reappearance playing a huge part in that. As a biased Clerith shipper, I can't help but also wonder if he's there to definitively debunk the infamous shipping fallacies once and for all (ie Cloud only likes Aerith because he's impersonating Zack, Aerith only likes Cloud because she's still hung up on Zack). The novella "Maiden Who Travels The Planet" shows Aerith outright rejecting Zack to his face in favour of Cloud, but certain shippers move the goalposts in regards to its canonicity... so having a similar thing happen in-game to produce an undeniable resolution to this fandom dispute would makes sense to me. Like the Avalanche trio and (likely) Aerith surviving, I believe Zack's revival is yet another key indicator that the Remake project is just as much a sequel as it is a remake (people have been wanting both for years, so putting two in one was an understandable move), and is about resolving the tragedies of the OG continuity 💚

@nohemi6899

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I truly hope you're right because bringing back Zack can make or break the entirety of Cloud and Aerith's journey and their progress. It wouldn't make sense to have Aerith take 100 steps back and go be with Zack. I'm sure many Zack fans would want that, but in terms of continuity it makes NO sense. I'm sure Aerith is still affected by Zack, no doubt. But the extent people go with it is very insulting to Aerith's character, relating everything she does and feels back to Zack. Same for Cloud, relating it all back to Zack. It's disappointing that people invalidate these two characters so much. It makes their bond and their lives seem like it's all simply Zack when there's so much more to the both of them than him. In the Intergrade ending before the Zack reveal, Aerith commented on needing a roof due to the rain in which Cloud responded "gonna be okay?" and she says her stomach feels like it's in knots. Again, people think she's talking about Zack when in the Remake on the rooftop she talks about why she fears the open sky and loves the steel sky to Cloud. Which he remembers so he checks up on her and she basically says she's nervous. Yet again, people relate it to Zack which from a writer's perspective drives me nuts.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

@@nohemi6899 definitely, CC did a disservice to the story by not trusting Zack's own character enough not to retcon everything to revolve around him. And this isn't even my Clerith bias talking - CC credits Zack with naming Tifa's bar (side note, the grown man he was talking to made a sexualised forth wall-breaking reference to Tifa too which was gross), shoehorns Yuffie into the story in a clunky way and shows Tseng and Cloud interacting despite no indication that they recognise each other in OG or Remake. I've heard that at the time before CC was released, OG fans were baffled how Zack got his own game - he's only shown twice at most, and the scene of his death was only included in international versions of the game; they didn't care about the literal plot device who was only there to give CLOUD AND AERITH (plus Tifa to a lesser extent) more depth/mystery and connection. I have faith that the devs know what they're doing, but I have been wrong before... I guess time will tell, and if worst comes to worst I'll still ship Clerith and enjoy their content both canon and non-canon; shipping preferences don't have to conform to canon after all 💚

I needed some perspective on Cleirth because i ship zeirth and cloti ever since I got into ff7 after remake. I just find both ships “meant to be” in terms of my personal tastes. I usually don’t find any interest in Cleirth, but im so glad i found your video! It really lightened the room for my knowledge on why people ship aeirth and cloud! I’ve always respected aeirth and i dont spend any ounce of energy arguing online on which fictional character has feels for another because there are way more important things to get mad over especially nowadays. But thanks for the insight! Cloti :)

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Hey, thank you so much for coming by! I really appreciate your comment, and you’re right - it isn’t really worth arguing with people about shipping preferences. Even though I don’t see any chemistry with Cloti, I think people should still be able to ship it if they want. To me Clerith really seem to understand each other (despite only knowing each other for a little while), and Cloud seems to really value Aerith in such a special way, before and after her death. I think Cloti could hypothetically work, but both Cloud and Tifa would have to put in a lot of effort to make sure things were healthy/mutual; they have a lot of history and issues to resolve if they were ever to become an official couple, in my opinion at least. I’m glad my video helped you in some way! 😁 If you’re looking for more analysis videos from a Clerith perspective, I recommend Pollen Ainne’s videos which go into deeper detail about Cloud and Aerith’s relationship ~ kzread.info/head/PLzbmtgHOZrwiqtQ7S-id1QmNeni4ygH9u 🙂

@LilyChilyFries

3 жыл бұрын

A CloTi who actually respects Cleriths?? Such a rare breed....

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I wouldn’t say they’re rare, it’s just a matter of the majority either being silent or drowned out by the extreme few. They enjoy the game and may even have a ship preference while respecting the other, but they’re voluntarily absent from online discussions or gatekept for supposedly lacking passion or not being a “true fan”. Fortunately, Remake has seen a lot of both normies and newbies coming forward to offer their perspectives which has been great 🙂

Yea. I go back and forth depending on the day lol. Aerith was also outcast as a kid from the other kids in sector 5. In the kids are alright, Kyrie plays wedding in aeriths church and excludes aerith. When aerith tells her to go home, she thinks aerith is mad because she stepped on her flowers but really, her parents had died. Kyrie called aerith weird and never talked to her again. Aerith has this connection with cloud for not knowing their dads and losing their mothers. But tifa and cloud are great together in on the way to a smile. When she asks cloud if she loves her while he's sleeping and he wakes up and she switches to "do you love...marlene", it's the most touching moment for me. I think at the end of advent children, his song cloud smiles plays and he's able to let go of aerith. Hard to say, I go back and forth.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

That’s the beauty of shipping - it isn’t necessarily about conforming to what is canon or the most plausible, it’s about enjoying the romantic and/or sexual dynamics (evident or potential) between two or more characters. Shipping a particular relationship regardless of canonicity in itself is completely valid. Personally I prefer Clerith and I believe that the story of FFVII frames them to be the intended canon couple, but that doesn’t mean I think Cloti shouldn’t be shipped. I don’t enjoy Cloti’s dynamics for a number of reasons, but if others do it’s not my place to tell them otherwise; “agree to disagree”, as they say. If Clerith was indisputably debunked in the future, I would still happily ship it (because I enjoy their chemistry and the symbolism of their bond) while respecting the canon laid out by the devs. As long as people don’t become toxic and resort to bullying tactics with each other, I don’t see anything wrong with having different shipping preferences. Professional differences in opinion are great and it can be mind-opening to be able to listen to and respect someone else’s perspective, even if you don’t agree with it.

I watched the video again and you explain very well the relationship of the two women with Cloud. Before I really got to know FF7, I thought Tifa was Cloud's true love because of what some of the fanbase said, I paid attention to their scenes together and their dialogues in 7R, I had the feeling that they weren't close for childhood friends, for me they communicated more like strangers and the space between them in some scenes like in the bar and in Cloud's apartment after the mission with Jessie reflected a emotional distance. Later I learned that they are not really childhood friends but former neighbors who had barely interacted, their only real interaction at the time is Cloud's promise to save Tifa, a promise he didn't spontaneously make because Tifa pushed him and it's after that, that her feelings for him develop because before she wasn't interested in him, she seems mostly attracted by the fact that he is "a Soldier" even as an adult, an image of him, the potential she sees in him than who he is. In AC she continues to want Cloud to be different and imposes how she thinks he should behave, she blames him when he shows vulnerability because it doesn't fit with her fantasy, he has to be the strong hero who protects her so she doesn't love Cloud. On the other hand Aerith was initially interested in him because he has similarities to her first love but she realized that they are fundamentally different and it's this opposition that made her fall in love, a deeper feeling than she had for Zack. She sees his shyness, sensitivity and awkwardness as different forms of his goodness and innocence, she encourages him to be genuine and this kindness/understanding brings out the best in Cloud who actively wants to protect her, not because of a promise, they are also compatible due to their similarities and differences.

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! As I've said to others, it's almost like a golden rule for relationships - trivial differences, fundamental similarities. Trivial differences like personality and hobbies to keep things interesting and help each other grow in open-mindedness, and fundamental similarities in values and principles (which can be influenced by sharing similar experiences) to ensure healthy compatibility and teamwork. Cloud and Aerith are very different from each other on the surface, but deep down both share similar traumas (ie losing their fathers as infants, watching their mothers die in agonising ways, abuse/exploitation by Shinra, being ostracised for their differences) which informs their determination to look to the future for a better life. That's a large reason why they work for me - their differences help balance out each other's strengths and weaknesses, while their similarities help them empathise and connect with each other in a way that's conducive to a healthy partnership (in any relationship context). In contrast, Cloti is the opposite to that - they do share trauma via the Nibelheim incident, but even then their relationships with their trauma are completely different. Being the Mayor's daughter and therefore at the heart of her community for all her life at that point, Tifa was very fond of her hometown and its destruction represented a brutal end to her blissful childhood and almost all of her loved ones. Cloud, on the other hand, was the village black sheep (along with his mother) who was bullied and ostracised and so he had been desperate to leave and live life beyond Nibelheim to prove his worth; losing his mother was devastating, but the rest of Nibelheim had been cruel to him and he'd been away for 2 years so his feelings towards the disaster are not the same as Tifa's. Tifa clings to anything (and anyone) nostalgic in order to relive her childhood, while Cloud can't get far enough away from his own miserable early years because there was nothing good for him there. Yes they're both introverted and from the same doomed hometown, but these are TRIVIAL similarities next to their fundamentally different values and principles which are a result of their polarised circumstances. This is why their compatibility is questionable at best - even when fighting together, Tifa sabotages things (whether intentionally or subconsciously) just to invoke their childhood promise and feel connected to her childhood again, which of course jeopardises them and the people around them. I rushed to make this video so I wish I'd made it more comprehensive, but I think I'll do more videos as Rebirth and other titles come out 😅

@bouchra75-zk3jh2bh9z

Жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Your video is already good and objective enough even though it came out before the remake and you may have changed your opinion on some things. I was very surprised to see that the way of a lot of fans describe Cloti fits better with Clerith, it's so much more natural and authentic between them, the dialogues between Cloud and Tifa seem more superficial to me and I think it's for 2 reasons: the devs. wanted to show that they don't really know each other and because they didn't always know how to make them interact apart from fanservice moments where Cloud keeps Tifa out of danger and scenes without really depth made to feed her fans , it's obvious that they are not compatible because of all the elements you gave, even Barrett/Cloud relationship is healthier because they start as hostile to each other and grow to respect and trust each other. In any type of relationship, communication, understanding, respect and trust are essential.

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I've definitely changed my opinion on some things eg the integrity and mutuality of Aerith and Tifa's relationship - at the time, I was trying to be fair to both girls and I genuinely believed in their friendship (even went as far as to ship them), but the more I looked into official materia the more I began to doubt the authenticity of Tifa's part in that connection. Her constant jealousy over Clerith and shifting sympathies (eg giving Shinra the benefit of the doubt after they destroyed her community and captured Aerith) undermines what could've been a beautiful friendship between them. I think that might have to do with people often correlating awkwardness with crushes and romance. Yes, awkwardness can be a factor in love but there are countless other reasons one might be awkward other than that. Lack of acquaintance with a person or situation for one thing, reluctantly going along with a plan of action for another, and trauma and mental illness for yet another. Along with the VERY generous (and deceptive) label of "childhood friends", I find that people who believe Cloti to be canon rely on circumstantial evidence like this while omitting the full context in order to give their ship more credibility. Once again, I'll never stop saying that it's perfectly valid to enjoy a non-canon ship; it's one thing to enjoy a ship, but completely different to try and enforce it as canon despite being all but proven otherwise 😕

@bouchra75-zk3jh2bh9z

Жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I totally agree about Tifa/Aerith friendship and the different reasons for being awkward. I think some people confuse everything and not paying enough attention to the clear meaning of some scenes, I've seen several Clotis say that Cloud told Tifa she's beautiful while he was complimenting the drink and that there's sexual tension between them because they're awkward in a room alone or when she's on top of him after he helps her jump off the train... but Cloud barely reacts, they see physical contact and think it's evidence of deep sexual desire/love but the context shouldn't be overlooked. There is nothing wrong with people liking Cloti but changing the characterization, the role of the characters and the story is something else.

@Kabbaway

Жыл бұрын

Definitely - as I touched on in my video playing through that section, a) Tifa fished for compliments in the first place to that undermines the quality of Cloud's reply, b) he raised the glass before saying "beautiful"; in many cultural contexts, this is exactly how people compliment food/drink preparers on their meal and c) he didn't even finish the drink since he was preoccupied talking with Jessie, followed by Tifa again and then Barret before getting kicked out of the bar - you can visibly see the glass still half-full of red alcohol 🍷

Finally someone pointed it. I'm so so glad. Thank you.💕

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for commenting! There have been others to express that Clerith is the intended couple, but they’re often drowned out by Cloti’s popularity. Remake has definitely clarified (as well as debunked) many fan misconceptions, which has welcomed a resurgence in Clerith content which has been wonderful to witness. I highly recommend this channel’s Clerith videos, they go into a lot more detail about how Clerith compliment each other 🙂 kzread.info/head/PLzbmtgHOZrwiqtQ7S-id1QmNeni4ygH9u

@chaerithbestgirl

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway Hey to tell you the truth I didn't play this game but I saw some clips of Aerith x Cloud x Tiffa in the remake I noticed the Chemistry of Aerith and Cloud then I started watching everything the Original searching for what happened then I realized that IF AERITH DIDN'T DIE she'll be CLOUD'S ENDGAME. Btw thank you so much for pointing all of this.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

No worries, I enjoyed making this video and I’m pleasantly surprised at how successful it’s been (it’s my 2nd most popular video)! My first experience with FFVII was Advent Children Complete, and even though Aerith only appears a few times it was clear to me that Cloud was mourning her as a deceased love interest, and that him and Tifa were basically as tense as uni roommates. Every new entry in the Compilation I watch/play/read, every dev statement I find and every piece of promotional material I come across reinforces my belief that Clerith is the intended couple in almost every single way possible, and I’m finding that others are noticing this too when they delve deeper into the story and development of FFVII 💚

I love this ship❗❗❗❗❗ I love CLERITHHHHHH💙💚💙💚💙💚💙💚💙

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

I love them too, both as individuals and a couple! 🥰 🎀⚪️💐🌦🐺 🔪

@yuukiasuna4186

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway urghh, can't wait for part 2🤭🤭🤭

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Same, I’m really looking forward to it. My Clerith obsession was definitely fed in Part 1 🥰

@yuukiasuna4186

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway 🤭🤭🤭

This was a perfect analysis and something that I have known since OG release in 97' and None of the material, game content or even the movie in my opinion has ever change that nor will it ever change unless something drastic changes in Remake and given the direction that Remake is already going, I don't think Cloud & Tifa are ever going to be a thing.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! I want to make an improved video or even a series in the future since I was using screen capture for the first time and rushed to get this video out for Valentine’s Day so it wasn’t as polish/thorough as I wanted… I guess it’s more so a summary of my opinions than anything else, and I can elaborate on those in future video essays (I also explained my thoughts throughout my Remake playthrough kzread.info/head/PL-HMc6NGBRaMutqh-zgW6gt8vPxtcuYZ0 ) 😅 Basically all the pro-Cloti evidence I’ve seen heavily relies on cherry-picking quotes/moments out of context while omitting very explicitly damning counterarguments, as well as general exaggeration for “Cloti” moments and undermining for Clerith ones… classic examples include the infamous “Cloti had sex under the Highwind” and “Cloti raise two children [Marlene and Denzel] as partners/parents” headcanons, which perverts what was supposed to be a wholesome display of friendship between two introverts and erases Barret from his role as Marlene’s dad (and also misconstrues Cloti’s figurative mother-child dynamic). I could talk for hours about all the evidence pointing towards Clerith being the intended pairing, but long story short unless SE pulls a wild card on us Remake’s shaping up to make Clerith endgame 💚

@jasonbradley7516

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I couldn’t agree more and having studied not only the game material and the novels and Ultimania. It’s not hard to prove it either. I think one of the reasons Cloti have become so loud is that for many Clerith over the years there was this aura that no matter the canon couple Aerith was gone so many of us lost the drive to voice the truth. I think what has happened is that Remake has rekindled the passion in Clerith fandom as well as given us hope that Aerith may live. Also with the new improved and beautiful visuals as well as the brilliant voice acting , SE was able to truly bring to life the truth of the love story between Clerith that we always knew was there since OG in 97’

@jasonbradley7516

2 жыл бұрын

And I agree unless SE suddenly decided to do a 180 & turn back, the end game is Clerith definitely

My shipping preference is the post office. They kill UPS and FedEx in everything. Fight me 😎

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

👏🤣 Good one

Great video Kabbaway, love your passion 💜🤗🐨

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks GG, hope you had a great Valentine’s Day! 😊💚

Couldn't be more agree omg🥺 ✊ i'm trying to explain this to stubborn cloti shippers all the time but fail to do so. Just gonna like this so that more ppl can see it. #Clerith end game all the way ✊

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much for stopping by, and for the like! 😊 I definitely believe that Clerith is the intended couple and that it’s both the most plausible and most profound/fulfilling relationship for Cloud to have. I’ve kinda found that it’s futile to try and change people’s minds about these kind of things... after all, everyone’s entitled to their own opinions. It’s perfectly valid to ship and enjoy Cloti if you’re that way inclined, but in saying that you should also be able to acknowledge what the story and devs state and imply. Thematically, Clerith makes the most sense. Plot-wise, Clerith makes the most sense. For character development, Clerith makes the most sense. In regards to FF and many of other Japanese works’ formulas, Clerith makes the most sense. Observing the game’s marketing, merch and spin-offs/cameos, Clerith makes the most sense. Even from a real life psychological and mental health stance, Clerith makes the most sense. I tend to agree to disagree and just stick to my channel/videos and safe, private Clerith spaces, since it’s not worth trying too hard to convince people of the validity of my opinion. Besides, I feel the story speaks for itself and that the Remake is only making the intended couple even more unavoidable and undeniable.

@leenguyen2219

4 жыл бұрын

Me too, like i know it if you prefer another girl you'd definitrly want to shup her with cloud. I got total understanding for that as i aswell have moment when i want the main character to be with another person instead of the intended love interest. Still true love is true love, and that doesn't change no matter what. Also this fan-war thing is going way out of hand, instead of enjoying the story i'm tired of hearing ppl disregarding aerith( and tifa too actually), saying how she's dead and annoying and stuff and that tifa was supposed to be the one (like where the hell did you get that from? When even the developers themselves make sure to put aerith to be the main heroine of this story?). So so happy more ppl can see the truth.

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

I’m really glad there’s been a resurgence in Aerith/Clerith appreciation thanks to the Remake ☺️

Clerith all the way❤ One of my three Otp's.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Ooh, what are your other two? 💚 My other serious FFVII ships are Cledge (Cloud x Wedge), Werith (Wedge x Aerith) and Cwerith/Cleridge (Cloud x Aerith x Wedge) 🌥🌍🍕

@celineosthaus8032

2 жыл бұрын

My other two Otp's are Soriku (Sora x Riku) from the Kingdom Hearts franchise and Harurin (Haru x Rin) from the anime Free!.

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent! 🥰

When SE just made clerith canon

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

To be honest it's always been heavily implied, they were just too polite to outright reject Cloti... but with how Remake's going at the moment it's shaping up to be definitive closure on the LTD

I came from the last trailer and it was all CLERITH ❤❤❤❤

@Kabbaway

7 ай бұрын

Definitely! Very telling that they’re divulging Clerith content closer to release, since it involves more major spoilers… just goes to show how important they are as individuals and as a dynamic duo! 💚

@Kabbaway

7 ай бұрын

Also, not sure if you noticed but they did the exact same thing with Remake too - they showed Tifa/Cloti action scenes (eg back-to-back in sewers and plate pillar hand grab) in earlier trailers and then shift to Aerith/Clerith moments closer to release (eg red dress reveal) 💚

😸❤❤

@Kabbaway

4 жыл бұрын

🥰💚

Zack is alive now though so are they going to force cloti and zerith?

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

Personally, I don't think so - Remake and its supplementary materials (ie dev interviews, Ultimanias etc) have heavily supported Clerith, from describing Cloud as having his heart skip a beat around Aerith at least three times to emphasising that Aerith's words in the dream sequence contradict her true feelings because she's trying to protect Cloud from grief over her future death... frankly, the time for Cloti/Zerith to be canon was in the OG timeline when Cloti were living together in Seventh Heaven and Zerith were both in the Lifestream; however, Nojima stated stated things "wouldn't go well" between Cloti, Tifa was written to develop maternal feelings for Cloud which was backed up by Nomura in Reunion Files, Cloud moves out and DoC's guide/manual suggests that Cloti remain friends who "keep in close contact", Aerith only conjured Zack's soul with Cloud's welfare in mind (both times), she outright rejects Zack because he's a womaniser and more or less tells him she'd have to be desperate to get back with him while in DoC's guide/manual it's Clerith's connection that's emphasised, not Zerith's... if anything, Zack being alive paves the way for dispelling the myths that Clerith isn't real because of their connection to Zack (ironically, Zack was created to DEEPEN their relationship, not undermine it)

@user-df8lp9zq8s

2 жыл бұрын

The remake ends with a song about Cloud 's feelings for Aerith . There certainly won 't be any Zerith . Because the Zerith relationship will completely destroy all the canons that exist . Firstly, it will destroy the legendary Clerith scenes that were in the original (not for this, the developers made Cloud's feelings for Aerith obvious already in Midgar ), secondly, it will destroy many canonical books and ultimania that Aerith fell in love with Cloud much more than with Zack. Thirdly, the relationship between Cloud and Aerith is legendary for SE , there is a museum for them , there are official arts for them, as a couple, no Zack ( Who is not even a participant in the main events of FF7) will not interfere with the relationship of Clerith. In the worst case , if SE decides to do a fan service completely , there will be a choice of a couple.

@user-df8lp9zq8s

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabbaway I think Zack will only strengthen Clerith if he is alive . Because Crisis core fans will understand that Aerith's true love is Cloud. I recently watched a stream of a girl who fell in love with Clerith in the remake, but then she played Crisis core, began to believe that Zack and Aerith are true love, and that in the continuation of the remake she will be able to reunite with true love. I even felt sad about it

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-df8lp9zq8s I fully agree, SE have stood their ground on Zerith for 25 years and with their insistence on Remake leaving less room for interpretation I highly doubt they're going to back down any time soon

This is such a great video ❤️❤️ i deffo agree that cloti is toxic and if im being totally honest i dont get how people thing cloud and tifa would be a good match, esp with how they're both introverted.

@Kabbaway

6 ай бұрын

I want to make a more detailed video about Tifa in particular since I have a lot of complicated feelings about her as a character, but yeah basically I feel like a lot of fans have this sort of Mandela effect going on. Because FFVII materia has been few and far between in the last 27 years, fandom discussions and works such as fanfic, AMVs and art hold much more influence on people’s perception of Tifa, causing a lot of them to forget what she’s really like in the official material itself. There’s certainly nothing wrong with celebrating characters in fanworks and head canons, but I have noticed in Tifa’s case her fandom reputation has morphed into being her canon depiction in a lot of people’s minds. I do think a lot of her fans are subconsciously disappointed that there isn’t more to her, but more on that another day 😅💚

@strifemis

6 ай бұрын

@@Kabbaway oh my god I definitely agree!!! I have been feeling this for a while but whenever you voice your opinions people start attack you. Imo she was so different in the OG than the remake and a lot of her fanon content paints her in a different light. I love tifa don't get me wrong but I just get a little confused when I see certain material about her! I also felt that, at least in the OG, she wasn't a well written character. That's just my opinion though. Can't wait to see that video!

@Kabbaway

6 ай бұрын

I’m really hoping Remake demonstrated her true codependent nature early to set her up for some real development in Rebirth onwards 💚

It will always be CloTi, but I understand that Clerith exists. Logically: [1] I chose CloTi because of the build up, it was realistic. It doesn't just validate everything from their environment, but also with Cloud's character as well. Yes, you can say that the first part of the game will direct us to Aerith, but that's the point, to hurt the player. To feel we loss not just a party member, but also a character we invested too much. For us to feel the regret and guilt, just like how Cloud actually feels. And you know what's painful? You can't fix it from there, once Aerith dies, you can't gain more pts. to win Tifa and it is understandable (unless you replay the game). Overall, Aerith is the girl you can't have. Her and Cloud's love is the kind of love that can never be, because they never met. She is just a guide, but not your destination. Zack Fair [1] The existence of "Must act like Zack" in Cloud's mind bothers me for pairing him with Aerith. Well, not because I like Zerith better. For my defense, those who are saying that Cloud is acting like Zack got the idea truthfully, but not the context and true detail of it. [2] (In Aerith's POV) Aerith was attracted to Cloud because he acts like Zack. In a manner that they were in the same SOLDIER rank, same outfit, and cockiness. People who say "But Cloud is edgy and Zack is outgoing!" clearly doesn't get it, they failed to acknowledge mannerisms and the interactions between Aerith and Cloud that mirrors Zack and Aerith (they met the same way she met Zack, Cloud helped her to sell flowers like she used to do with Zack, etc...). So, what made me uncomfortable in Aerith's POV? It's too unfair for Cloud. To be loved because she remembers her ex-lover to him. To be loved because he was just a REBOUND to her 5 years missing boyfriend. This is probably why Aerith wanted to meet the real Cloud. So she can see if there's a chance, but unfortunately, she died before having that chance. [3] (In Cloud's POV) Cloud developed PTSD and DID (Dissociative identity disorder). DID is the reason why I can't match him with Aerith, he developed a coping mechanism wherein he thought ALL of Zack's achievement were his. His caring and goofy personality were dominated by his fake "edgy" persona (you can clearly see the difference between CC!Cloud and OG!Cloud), one can argue that "Cloud was young in CC!", but please remember that even though he was canonically 21, his mind remained 16-years-old because he and Zack were comatose for 4 years. It was NOT HIM, the asshole in the first disc, the one that Aerith met till her death. Technically, Cloud only knows Aerith by memories. Japanese writing culture [1] If you are already familiar with anime/manga writing. You will notice that the childhood sweethearts/first love troupe will always, LIKE ALWAYS will win. Given that Cloud and Tifa met first, it was already her golden ticket to victory when it comes to elimination. [2] I believe they value honor and the famously called "Bro's code". Even though Cloud and Aerith are valid, Zack still died protecting him. I'm not saying that Aerith should have been devoted to Zack till the day she die. I get it, she has the right to like who she wants. But the fact that, if Cloud indeed met Aerith and discover that she and Zack have history, do you think he can handle the conscience + his guilt towards Zack's death? We all know that Cloud is mentally weak. Maybe it can be cured through time, but again, we can only guess because it never happened. Tifa Lockhart [1] Let's face it that this girl has been Cloud Strife's driving force. The reason why we have him as the main protagonist of Final Fantasy 7. Her importance, however, was just magnified and was probably appreciated in disc 3. The heroine that has more hero complex than the hero itself. If you really understand the REAL Cloud, your priority will always be Tifa Lockhart. She is the only one who can help Cloud to regain his lost memories, his lost self. She was his light that antagonizes Sephiroth's darkness within Cloud and his last remaining source of hope tbh. Overall [1] Both ships are valid. But CloTi was obviously the endgame. Even though there's no validation from SE, let's just use our common sense. Remember that they are only in there 20's, it's understandable that they are still not into 'that' level of relationship, given that Cloud just moved on after Advent Children and was still in the recovering stage in Dirge of Cerebrus, it's part of their slow burn relationship. The exchange words between them in On the way to smile kinda directs in the romantic path too. [2] I get that Aerith is the main heroine and Tifa just took over the spot after her death. But it doesn't mean that Aerith is the main romantic interest either. This is the same scenario with Hinata and Sakura. Sakura was more likely the heroine and most of the fans back then were really pushing her with Naruto, but at the end of the series, Naruto ended up with Hinata. This is why I don't get people who are using Aerith's role to invalidate CloTi, it was not an obstacle. [3] The difference between CloTi and Clerith is that, CloTi is a slow burn "us against the world" love and Clerith is a one shot "beautiful tragic" love. Both were endearing and I can't blame fans for having a war for what's better or what. [4] This is just my opinion. You can still ship who you want. Shipping doesn't require canonicity anyway!

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for you reply. Firstly, I don’t understand what you mean about Clerith being “unrealistic” vs Cloti being “realistic”. Love is multifaceted and develops differently for each person/relationship. Not to mention romantic love isn’t a destination - it’s an ever-changing emotion which grows the more you deeper your connection with someone. You could say that being in love with someone entails wanting to get to know then better, because you never stop learning about a person and can never know everything about them. Having a smooth relationship it’s not “unrealistic” - it’s healthy to be open-minded and compatible with each other. We’re taught to be suspicious about things being too good to be true, but that just makes us normalise unhealthy behaviour - miscommunication, bickering and arguing, “I hate my spouse” jokes and the like, and even toxicity and abuse in some cases. It’s possible for relationships to run smoothly without major bumps if the people involved understand and respect each other well enough. Besides, this is a fantasy story which inherently calls for suspension of disbelief - few canon Final Fantasy main pairings knew each other prior to the story; they met, bonded and fell in love all within the span of their respective games yet people single out Clerith to say this is “unrealistic”. Secondly, it’s been stated countless times (by devs, supplementary materials and Aerith herself) that Aerith likes Cloud much more than she ever like Zack, and for his own qualities - in her own words the similarities BOTHERED her, meaning she was concerned and not very eager. Even if she was positively drawn to his Zack-like mannerisms, people are allowed to have a type - in any type of attraction (platonic, romantic or otherwise) we are most often drawn to traits we’ve enjoyed in our past relationships/interactions; it’s impossible for anyone to be completely unique. Not to mention Tifa ignored Cloud until she basically used him as a rebound from her group of friends after they left Nibelheim when she was left with nobody to talk to, so by your logic she’s not faultless in this regard either. One major issue I have with your comment is that you’ve heavily misunderstood and mislabelled Cloud’s condition as Dissociative Identity Disorder - DID is characterised by the maintenance of two or more distinct identities, where the person switches between personalities with little-to-no memory of the experiences of the last. Cloud is not shown switching personalities in the story at all - he is still the brooding, socially awkward dork he’s always been but just used his subconscious knowledge of Zack as a template for the SOLDIER front he presented to cope with his perceived failures. Cloud remembers Nibelheim, his childhood and his mother and doesn’t remember Zack’s parents, hometown or Aerith during the time he was supposedly “Zack”, and he remembers the events of the OG (including his time with Aerith and her death) long after he’s supposedly returned to his true self. He questions whether his memories are real or not only because Sephiroth gaslights him, unwittingly helped by Tifa’s own faulty memories and hesitation, into thinking he’s just one of Hojo’s creations - this is NOT the same as DID. Cloud’s Jenova cells simply copy-pasted Tifa’s romanticised memories into Cloud to compliment the fake story Cloud had already created for himself (he based this on what he knew of Zack which is shown to have been surface-level SOLDIER and Nibelheim incident stuff at best) all of these fake memories were patched into his damaged psyche. Cloud suffers from a type of amnesia; the devs took creative liberties with the extraterrestrial influence, but his core personality traits and sense of identity as Cloud Strife are there and not divided by a conflicting personality. In any case, by your logic it’s not fair on Cloud for Cloti to be canon either because him and Tifa barely had much meaningful contact until FFVII (meaning Tifa doesn’t really know the true Cloud herself, and even post-OG were shown that they fail to overcome their miscommunication issues and become a couple despite having all the time in the world to do so). For a far more accurate depiction of DID vs amnesia in a fictional context, I recommend watching the anime Elfen Lied; pay attention to how the memory issues of the female vs male protagonist are depicted - one suffers from something close to DID and the other from some type of amnesia, and Cloud’s situation matches with the latter case much closer than the former. In regards to anime tropes it really depends on the show you watch, but from my personal experience and from what I’ve heard from many Japanese people it’s actually more common for the childhood friend to not be taken seriously and for the newer suitor to become the endgame love interest by the end of the story. For an example of a friendzoned character in FF, just look at Quistis (FFVIII), whose feelings were unreciprocated by Squall and who eventually realised she had mistaken her sisterly feelings for him (having grown up together as orphans) for romantic ones, much like Tifa resigns to feeling motherly towards Cloud and viewing him as a child in Case of Tifa. Freya (FFIX) knew Zidane longer than Garnet/Dagger and is a melee-based fighter like Tifa, and is not presented as a viable love interest for Zidane. Lulu (FFX), while not a childhood friend of Tidus’s, shares other similarities with Tifa (ie appearance and personality) and is only presented as a love interest by technicality of the dating mechanics (regardless of player choice, Yuna is the obvious endgame outcome). Even Rachel (FFVI), whose story is basically “if Tifa had died in the Nibelheim incident” and was Locke’s canonical lover, ends up encouraging Locke to move on from her during her brief resurrection and he ultimately ends up with Celes. We can’t have a conversation about tropes without also acknowledging the well-established formula for FF’s main couples; almost all of them conform to the idea of opposites (ie a fighter/mage, mundane and magical race combo) which Clerith also happens to match - * Cecil and Rosa from FFIV (a half-Mysidian paladin and a human mage), * Locke and Celes from FFVI (a thief and mage), * Squall and Rinoa from FFVIII (a fighter and sorceress), * Zidane and Garnet/Dagger (a thief and summoner), * Tidus and Yuna from FFX (a human fighter and half-Al Bhed summoner), * Snow and Sarah and (debatably) Noel and Yeul from FFXIII (a monk and archer-mage, and fighter and Seeress respectively) * Noctis and Lunafreya from FFXV (a fighter and Oracle, and also the only exception to the friendzoned childhood friend rule in this list)

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

There is a lot to unpack in your next point. First off, the concept of “bro codes” has drastically changed over time - in many cultures it was (and still is in some) customary for widowed women to be remarried to a brother or other male relative of their dead spouse, and even my own great-grandmother happily married her deceased husband’s best friend as per his dying wishes. The idea of “stealing” a friend’s woman (whether or not said friend has died) is inherently misogynistic, neglecting the wishes of the women involved and playing into toxic masculinity. It makes perfect sense for people from overlapping social circles (via a mutual connection) to get together, it happens all the time especially in extended friend groups - if anything, many people are more comfortable getting together with a friend/acquaintance or a friend/acquaintance-of-a-friend/acquaintance than a complete stranger with no prior connection to their current social circle. As I’ve previously said Aerith has moved on from Zack and fallen in love with Cloud much more than she ever did with her juvenile crush. Also in Maiden Who Travels the Planet (an official novella commissioned and supervised by FFVII’s devs and included in Ultimania Omega) Aerith not only outright rejects Zack’s advances and declare her feelings for Cloud but Zack has no hard feelings about it, gracefully accepting her rejection and later giving Cloud a motivational speech during the latter’s duel with Sephiroth in AC(C) without showing any bitterness or resentment. I struggle to understand why you say that Tifa is Cloud’s driving force, when beyond her moment in Mideel/Lifestream and her dysfunctional friendship and cohabitation with him post-OG she’s barely presented as a positive driving force by the story itself. Cloud canonically started having a change of heart regarding people and the Planet thanks almost solely to Aerith, he actively chose to rescue her from Shinra Building even though as a mercenary his duty was still to Avalanche, he doubled down on his resolve to defeat Sephiroth because of her death, he was driven to unfreeze her smile and ensure her prayer made it to the planet, he mentions fighting for the planet but also “a personal memory” (it’s implied through previous quotes that this involves Aerith, reinforced by the fact that he specifically references her memories before the rest of the party’s and his own as they confront Sephiroth for the final battle), he resolves to meet Aerith in the Promised Land (a personalised state of inner peace and contentment) while Tifa is literally left dangling in his arms and wistfully inserting herself into his affirmation, he carries on living because he feels he won’t be forgiven by Aerith if he doesn’t (he himself says he wants to be forgiven by her more than anything) and only improves mentally once he realises that she never blamed him for what happened. It’s been stated numerous times by the devs that Aerith is the “heart and soul” (aka the most important character) in the entire story, as evident by not only her relationship with Cloud but her embodiment of the story’s core themes (ie life and death, human nature and resilience in the face of adversity). To be blunt, Cloud is more of a driving force for TIFA than the other way around - almost none of Tifa’s significant actions revolve around anything other than Cloud and these efforts are constantly left unreciprocated as my final point will elaborate on. Lastly, I don’t see how the slow burn argument applies here - Cloud has moved out of the bar and only keeps in touch with Tifa by DoC, his guilt/grief managed and Sephiroth/geostigma subdued months earlier. Nojima stated that there’s the premise that Cloti won’t work out even without such excuses, implying that Cloud and Tifa are inherently incompatible and better off staying friends. As I mentioned before Tifa had begun thinking of Cloud more like a child than a lover even before AC(C), and there’s no indication given that she has changed her mind by DoC. With SE moving on to telling the story of Remake (which seems to be in an alternative timeline of some sort), it seems that SE are disinterested in developing the original timeline any further - if they wanted to confirm Cloti, they would’ve done it in the 24 years they’ve had to do so, but instead they’ve only proceeded to define it by platonic and/or dysfunctional terms. In short, I agree to disagree with your overall argument. What I do agree with is that shipping preference doesn’t necessarily correlate with canon, except I believe that this applies to Cloti rather Clerith based on everything I know about FFVII. I guess we’ll see what direction SE will go in regards to which ship will be made canon, but I believe Remake is doubling down on the Clerith evidence shown over the decades (of course, people will still be free to ship whatever they want regardless of the outcome).

@user-df8lp9zq8s

2 жыл бұрын

I can 't call Cloud and Tifa slow burn in any way . To do this, I need to see Cloud's feelings for Tifa, and where and why he begins to experience them. I can name slow burn Stefan and Caroline in the Vampire Diaries series. Not my favorite couple , but I like them . At the end of the original , Cloud wants to meet Aerith , he wants to find her on the promised land . Many years later, when they live with their children, Cloud and Tifa are still just friends, and Cloud is depressed because he couldn't save the girl. Obviously , he can 't forgive himself because he couldn 't save the girl he was in love with . He and Tifa argue, swear, Cloud doesn't call her. He lives in the Aerith Church . I don 't see a single hint at all in AC that Cloud is in love with Tifa , although this is the last appearance of FF7 heroes . Cloud and Tifa are definitely not a romantic endgame . It all ends with Aerith helping Cloud to forgive himself and accept the fact that she will always be in his heart

@Kabbaway

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-df8lp9zq8s absolutely, I feel like some people are using the term "slow burn" as a last ditch attempt to retain hope that Cloti will be made canon... it's valid to ship whatever you want, it doesn't have to correlate with canon

Aerith likes Cloud because he's useful and similar to Zack. Tifa likes Cloud for many reasons relating to the events of their lives, ultimately she owes him a lot and they're very similar people. Cloud likes Aerith because she's relevant to his obsession with Sephiroth which is a result of his Jenova cells. Cloud likes Tifa because she helps break him out of his shell, she knows him better than anyone and through her he learns a lot about himself even before Mideel. But obviously the biggest event that plays into their relationship is Mideel. You want to know why Tifa & Cloud is definitively canon? Because Tifa and Cloud have a sex scene in the actual game.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

While I respect your interpretation, I thoroughly disagree with it based on everything I know about the FFVII story and its creators. I took some time to gather my thoughts and resources so that I could propose counterarguments to your view. “Aerith likes Cloud because he’s useful and similar to Zack”, This common misconception oversimplifies a lot of critical plot points and characterisation. Yes Aerith noted similarities between Cloud and Zack, but what you’re omitting is the fact that several sources (including the devs and Aerith herself) stated that she has moved on and now loves Cloud for him. Here’s just a few examples: FFVII (1997), Evergreen Park Cloud: "You were...serious?" Aerith: "No. But I liked him for a while." Cloud: "I probably knew him. What was his name?" Aerith: "It doesn't really matter." FFVII (1997), Gongaga Aerith: "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing." Cloud: "Missing?" Aerith: "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back." "He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else." FFVII (1997) Golden Saucer Date Aerith: "First off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture... I think I must have seen him again, in you... But you're different. Things are different...” FFVII Dismantled, Aerith’s Monologue in Gongaga Aerith: "I was a little surprised that this village was Zack's birthplace! Although called my first love, that doesn't mean that we became particularly intimate. I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar. It was good for a little while, so I thought. A friendly, childish SOLDIER, who gave kindness to lots of girls. I encountered Zack and began to think that even a good natured person was from Shinra. Therefore, 5 years ago, when Zack departed somewhere on a mission and he seemingly disappeared, I cried considerably. Yeah, I call this first love. Mother got angry at Zack when she saw me like that. That matter made him completely at fault. At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." Maiden Who Travels The Planet (a novella commissioned and approved by the devs and included in a canon Ultimania) Zack: "Man, you know Aerith. Out of all the girls I've gotten along with, you truly are the best. After that mission, we could've stayed the way we were and might have been able to continue to go out with each other after I returned home. I hate Sephiroth. And I hate Shinra who's been hiding all the stuff they've been doing." Aerith: "Someone who's gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover." Zack: "How mean. I'm nice to everyone." Aerith: "And that's your bad point. You're not simplistic and awkward like Cloud." MWTTP Zack: "But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith." Aerith: "Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zack." Case of Lifestream: White (Zack is not seen or referenced) “ Cloud was her friend, her beloved - a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected." - Case of Lifestream: White Furthermore, Zerith was never meant to be an endgame pairing. In the OG Zack was simply a plot device to deepen Cloud, Aerith and Tifa’s own stories and connection to each other. Even in CC which many believe made their love more profound, Zack still flirts with other women (eg Cissnei) and he’s only shown to hang out with Aerith between missions; they actually get very little screentime together, in which they mostly act platonic with a pinch of awkward flirting. The devs themselves stated that their relationship is juvenile and short-lived, and Aerith stated her disenchantment in their relationship in her final letter: Aerith's 89th and final letter to Zack in Crisis Core “Are you doing well? Where are you? It's been 4 years. This will be the 89th letter I've written but I will not send out any more. I hope that you receive this last letter. Zack! The flowers are selling very well. It makes everyone smile. It's all thanks to you. Aerith.” Zack’s profile in Crisis Core Ultimania “Zack falls to the Church of the Slum during his mission and ends up meeting the girl Aerith, who's trimming flowers. They both feel contented simply with each other's company; it's a platonic love. They think these kinds of happy days will last forever, but....” Crisis Core Ultimania “They attract to each other by mutual feelings similar to friendship, because they're both juvenile, if you call it love...” Nojima interview, Crisis Core Ultimania “Though we’re talking about love, they are still young and there’s no time to describe “how they become fond of each other” in the game. So I made it like “falling into a sudden crush.”” That last quote is in reference to how they chose to recycle the scene from the OG where Cloud fell into Aerith’s church. They very deliberately used Clerith scenes, because they were romantically framed, to try and compensate for Zerith’s lack of development. The difference is that for Zerith their circumstances and inexperience as teenagers never let them develop a proper connection, whereas in OG Clerith are in their 20’s and are able to spend more consistent time together than Zerith ever could since they have a common enemy in Sephiroth. I will address your point about Cloud being “useful” in the next comment.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

“Tifa likes Cloud for many reasons relating to the events of their lives, ultimately she owes him a lot and they’re very similar people” I think you may be forgetting that Tifa only acknowledged Cloud when she had nobody else to hang out with, and only took any real interest in him after learning he was going to be in SOLDIER - “in the newspapers” in her own words, a hero to save her any time she was in a pinch. Tifa ignored Cloud and enabled (whether willingly or not) his ostracism by not only their peers but also the adults, and only acknowledged his existence when he was a) her default company and b) aiming for a glorious status she could benefit from, and then “strong-armed him into making the promise” (in the words of FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania), which is supported by his hesitance and her persistence in the scene itself. Now, we could give her the benefit of a doubt and hope she was just being a teenager and that her feelings matured into a more well-rounded love later on... except the material simply doesn’t support such an optimistic take. As soon as they ran into each other five years after Nibelheim, Tifa immediately capitalised on his believed status as a SOLDIER and got him into Avalanche (her exploitation of him as a SOLDIER is made especially apparent in Remake when she nags him into doing tasks around Sector 7, including getting him to manage her own water filter affairs and disputes, and then ditches him to hang out with Avalanche afterwards), all while being complicit in his identity issues for her own convenience because she “didn’t want to lose him”. She did say that she was confused and concerned by the inconsistencies in his memory, but she made minimal attempt to seek clarification or help him sort these issues out, even when she voiced her intention to tell him things when she thought Cloud was dying at the Sector 4 Reactor. Especially in OG, Tifa invoked her “childhood friend” status quite forcefully and took great offence when Cloud couldn’t immediately recall their promise. After Cloud gives Sephiroth the Black Materia she herself says she misses Cloud’s “cocky” stance and attitude, key traits from his fake SOLDIER persona which aligns with her childhood fantasies of a hero rescuing her. When Barret questioned whether Cloud was truly her childhood friend she couldn’t even give a confident answer; the reason she questioned her own memories was because of the fact she barely interacted with Cloud as a child, which Sephiroth/Jenova took advantage of. FFVII (1997) Sector 4 Reactor Tifa: “Cloud! Please don't die! You can't die! There's still so much I want to tell you!” Cloud: “I know, Tifa......” FFVII (1997) Cloud’s Mind Tifa: “Yeah... it was so sudden. I was... a bit surprised. But... It's true that we weren't THAT close, but... After you left town, I really thought about you a lot. I used to wonder how Cloud was doing. I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER? I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an article about you.” Tifa: “Why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place? I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......” [......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed.] Cloud: “......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice......” Tifa: We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well. I've known you since we were children and always thought we were close... Now that you mention it... I don't recall you ever being in my room...” […] Cloud: “I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group.” FFVII (1997) Junon Tifa: “...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about. All the things you didn't know that you should, And other things you shouldn't know that you did... I wanted to make sure... But then I heard... you were going far away... And I didn't want that... I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time. And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you.” Tifa: “Meteor is coming, and Weapon is on the rampage......At a time like this, I don't know what I'm supposed to do......No idea at all......” Barret: “Get a hold of yourself Tifa! C'mon, let's think about this!No way we can get offa this train we're on!” Tifa: “......If only Cloud was here, everything would be fine. Cloud would......Stand that cocky little way he did, and tell us what to do. He'd say, 'Everything's under control, Tifa.'” Barret: “Tifa! When'd you become such a wimp!” Tifa: “I'm sorry Barret. I'm kind of shocked myself. I'm so depressed.” […] Barret: “What? Does Cloud always gotta be around?....... We did fine without him in the beginning......Right? An' what happened to tough girl I used to know? Where'd she go to?” FFVII (1997) Mideel Tifa: “I don't care about anything else, only Cloud...... I...... want to be by his side......” Barret: “Oh, and uh, Tifa... I don't like askin' this but...... Is he really your childhood friend? And not Sephiroth's shadow?” Tifa: “Huh!? Well... that is...... No, I'm sure of it!” Barret: “Yeah......? Okay then...... Sorry for askin' that.” Maiden Who Travels The Planet “In the Northern Crater, he found out that his memories were false. He was just a doll who the mad scientist Hojo had transplanted Jenova cells into. A being made to merge with Sephiroth for his resurrection. But as a failure, he was an inferior clone that wasn't even given a number. He was thrown out like trash in Midgar. Then he met Tifa. He met his "real" childhood friend, Tifa Lockhart. That time, with Jenova's power to duplicate memories, the memories that Tifa had of Cloud was instantly transferred to him. The missing parts were then filled with his own memories of being in Soldier to complete it all. That was how the patched up personality of Cloud Strife, based on the young man that existed in Tifa's conscious, was born. While that "Cloud" held many contradictions about himself, he built up a fictitious character so that he wouldn't be doubtful of himself. That character was himself.” After the OG, as laid out in Case of Tifa, Tifa continues to project the idea of her and Cloud having a family together despite his continuing grief and preoccupation with Aerith. Tifa is not so much in love with Cloud for who he is, but what he represents - nostalgia, both in the sense that he embodies her childhood damsel fantasies and that he is her last connection to her destroyed hometown. Whenever he doesn’t act the way she wants she bottles it up until she blurts out chastising him, without any displayed empathy or constructive feedback/advice. In this regard, you were right that she cares about him for “many reasons relating to the events of their lives”. Unfortunately though her love simply isn’t healthy for either of them, especially since she’s actually in love with a fake, idealised version of Cloud which he can never live up to. Let’s take a look at Aerith for some perspective - yes, she acknowledges his skills and takes advantage of them at times, but ultimately she never exploited Cloud for her own selfish needs or desires. In fact, her going off to the Forgotten City alone actually demonstrates how selfless her feelings for him actually were. She could have chosen to bring him along for protection, but she understood that Cloud’s true nature made him mentally unstable and that he needed to take care of himself for once. As detailed in the official quotes I previously cited, Aerith likes Cloud for his simplicity and awkwardness rather than anything related to Zack or his skills. If Aerith supposedly likes him for being useful as you claim, then you must at the very least hold Tifa to this exact standard because she’s even more guilty of it based on the available evidence. She herself admits that she did this because she didn’t want to lose him. Tifa even admits they were never close as children and that her memories of him and the past were vague. So essentially they shared one meaningful encounter as teens, unknowingly shared another during the Nibelheim incident 2 years later and then met a third time 5 years later just before the start of OG/Remake; that’s hardly the track record of someone who “knows him better than anyone else”.

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

In regards to your remark about them being very similar people, I do not see where this comes from. Apart from being introverted people with trauma and insecurities, fundamentally they could not be more different. Tifa handles her Nibelheim trauma by ruminating on the past and clinging onto any connections or reminders of that time/place. Cloud on the other hand desperately tries to move on from it, because there’s nothing but pain and misery in his past due to his childhood ostracism (let’s keep in mind that he left to join SOLDIER at 14 to prove himself - he couldn’t wait to leave that place). Tifa is quick to fall apart and never fully takes responsibility for her actions or try to fix them (she’s STILL projecting her expectations onto Cloud and trivialising his issues years later), whereas Cloud internalises blame for the events around him and does overcome his issues with a little gentle encouragement (no thanks to Tifa’s “lecture” full of belittling and guilt-tripping language which makes him visibly upset and nonverbal). They may have trivial similarities but they are fundamentally incompatible, a fact established by their constant miscommunications and clash of ideals as well as stated by Nojima. Case of Tifa: [It was night, and they had closed the bar. Cloud was drinking alcohol even though he rarely did. He drained his glass. Tifa thought about it before going over and filling his glass.] "Shall I join you?" [There was something she wanted to talk to him about.] Cloud: "I want to drink alone." [Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said,] "Then drink in your room." Tifa: "Do you love me?" [Cloud opened his eyes. He looked perplexed.] "Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?" Cloud: "Yeah. But... sometimes I don't know how to act around her." Cloud: "Denzel had collapsed in front of Aerith's church. So I thought she must've brought him to me." [Cloud paused and looked away.] Tifa: "You went to the church." Cloud: "I didn't mean to keep it from you." Tifa: "But you did." Cloud: "Sorry." Tifa: "Did I say you did anything wrong? But next time, I'm going with you." Cloud: "Fine." Tifa: "And Cloud, you're wrong." [Cloud looked at Tifa with a puzzled expression.] "Aerith didn't bring Denzel to you." Cloud: "Right... Just what I thought." Tifa: "You're not listening to me. Aerith brought that boy to us. Right?" [Cloud stared at her. Eventually he smiled. It had a kindness to it, as if to say everything will be all right. Several days after they had that conversation, Cloud left.] “First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same…” ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile; Square Enix

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

“Cloud likes Aerith because she’s relevant to his obsession with Sephiroth which is the result of his Jenova cells” I have to admit that’s a new take for me, and a very creative one because I’ve yet to see any credible evidence supporting it. If anything, official sources speak of how Cloud cares about her for of her warm personality and how she sees through his curt facade and understands his true nature, as well as how he thinks her appearance is captivating, especially her eyes and smile: “She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger […] Ibought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar. Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. Chap. 5: The Introduction of Scenario; page 138) FFVII (1997) Forgotten City Cloud: “...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing. Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain? My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!” All the time Aerith used to smile, like a flower. But, Aerith won't smile any more. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. [FFVII Dismantled) FFVII (1997) Cosmo Canyon Cloud “......Aeris. She was smiling to the end. We have to do something, or that smile will just freeze like that.” FF30th Anniversary: Farewell Exhibition Booklet “While on-mission, Cloud encounters a girl named Aerith inside a church in the Midgar slums. Aerith is under surveillance by the Shinra Company, and so Cloud joins her as her bodyguard. Gradually, Aerith’s warm cheer begins to melt Cloud’s frosty exterior.” “"My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!" True words, revealing Cloud's deep sorrow.”

@Kabbaway

3 жыл бұрын

“Cloud likes Tifa because she helps break him out of his shell, she knows him better than anyone and through he he learns a lot about himself even before Mideel.” Forgive my frankness but it feels like you’re projecting Aerith’s role onto Tifa. We see in OG that the fact they were supposedly childhood friends doesn’t affect Cloud and he is just as cold and dismissive towards Tifa as everyone else prior to Aerith (excluding dialogue options the player can choose, but they do not override the plot and dialogue out of the players’ control). Several offical quotes state that Aerith was not only aware of and loved the real Cloud, but that she was the one to bring Cloud “out of his shell” and start expressing his true vulnerability. Even in Remake which slightly diluted his curt facade and showed him bonding with Jessie, Biggs and Wedge, it is still reaffirmed that Tifa has little to no influence on his change of heart. In fact, he displays blatant annoyance at the prospect of helping her with the water filters, is cold and blunt in response to her comments about his eyes and how his mercenary behaviour scares her, is indignant to her quips to “be nice” (without actually giving him any constructive feedback), and she berates him for attacking “Marcus” without even giving him the chance to tell his side of the story. If Tifa “knows him better than anyone else”, why does she get frustrated and doesn’t understand why Cloud pulls away from her? Why does she respond to his behaviour with passive-aggression while simultaneously fixating on his idealised “SOLDIER” traits? Why does it take her being inside his literal mind for her to realise that he was lonely and wanted to be noticed, but then continues to push expectations onto him? Why does she continue to say things like “you think you’ve got it so damn hard” and “stop running” when it visibly upsets him and makes him clam up? As I previously mentioned, until he planned to join SOLDIER Tifa barely even knew he existed and they didn’t share another meaningful encounter until just before OG/Remake. FFVII (1997) Seventh Heaven Tifa: “How about...something to drink?” Cloud “Give me something hard Tifa: Just a minute. I'll make one for you. You know, I'm relieved you made it back safely.” Cloud: “What's with you all of a sudden? That wasn't even a tough job.” Tifa: “I guess not...You were in SOLDIER. Make sure you get your pay from Barret.” Cloud: “Don't worry. Once I get that money, I'm outta here.” Tifa: “Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us.” Cloud: “Sorry Tifa...” Tifa: “The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying. Someone has to do something.” Cloud: “So let Barret and his buddies do something about it. It's got nothing to do with me.” Tifa: “So! You're really leaving!? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend!? […] You forgot the promise, too.” Cloud: “Promise?” Tifa: “So you DID forget. Remember...... Cloud. It was seven years ago... Look, the well.Do you remember?” Cloud: “Yeah... back then.” [the childhood promise scene plays out] Tifa: “You remember now, don't you... our promise?” Cloud: “I'm not a hero and I'm not famous. I can't keep...... the promise.” Tifa: “But you got your childhood dream, didn't you? You joined SOLDIER. So come on! You've got to keep your promise......” Barret: “Wait a sec big-time SOLDIER! A promise is a promise! Here!!” [Received Barret's stash, 1500 gil!] Cloud: “This is my pay? Don't make me laugh.” Tifa: “What? Then you'll...!!” Cloud: “You got the next mission lined up? I'll do it for 3000.” Barret: “What......!?” Tifa: “It's ok, it's ok. psst, psst...... (We're really hurting for help, right?)” Barret: “Uh...... ugh...... (That money's for Marlene's schoolin'......) 2000!” Tifa: “Thanks, Cloud.” FFVII (1997) Train to Sector 4 Tifa: “...Scary... huh.” Cloud: “Too late to be saying that now. Why'd you come along anyway?” FFVII (1997) Mideel Tifa: "Barret...... I...... When I was in the Lifestream I saw the real Cloud. I mean, I didn't really find him. Cloud found himself on his own..." 10th Anniversary Ultimania “Even though Aerith perceived that Cloud had lost sight of his true self, she still has great affection for him. As an Ancient, Aerith had planned to accomplish the mission. On the one hand, her last concern is Cloud.” 
 FFVII Ultimania Omega “So you won’t have a breakdown..” Aerith appears in Cloud’s dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. “Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaved like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.” 
 When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack’s similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, “I’m searching for you” and “I want to meet you” all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he’s not aware of it himself. 
 “"I’m looking for you.“ "So you won’t have a breakdown.” What Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability.” “While Cloud was asleep on Aerith's bed in her house, it reminded him of the last time he visited his mother's house 5 years ago. This causes his inner mind to call out something of the original Cloud.” FF30th Anniversary: Farewell Exhibition Booklet ”The story follows the lead character, Cloud, but it is the heroine, Aerith, who opens Cloud’s eyes, and helps bring him closer to understanding the mystery that is his past. Through her, we draw closer to the truth of this story.” “While on-mission, Cloud encounters a girl named Aerith inside a church in the Midgar slums. Aerith is under surveillance by the Shinra Company, and so Cloud joins her as her bodyguard. Gradually, Aerith’s warm cheer begins to melt Cloud’s frosty exterior.”