I'll adress any comments made her. Editing in answers if necessary. First up, a small correction. When I say " leaves her to save the planet" at 23:40 I meant "she leaves him". As a small addition concerning hypotheticals such as "If Aerith had lived" I would also like to say this. In stories, things happen for a reason, unlike in real, where people just die, characters don't "just die" in stories. They always die because a writer DECIDED they would die, even in stories like "game of thrones", where seemingly anyone can die, their deaths still always serve a purpose, even if the purpose is just to show that "sometimes people die for no reason", that, is still a reason. I mention this because it's something that's often forgotten in this debate, it's not that Aerith HAPPENED to die, and that therefore the role of love interest accidentally shifted to Tifa, no. It was decided that Aerith was going to die, and BECAUSE of that, a different girl was needed to be the love interest. Tifa is not the love interest out of chance, but by design. Aerith was designed not to be the love interest in the plot, she was designed to serve the function of one, until her death would prevent her from actually being one. Design isn't temporal, unless a story is being written as we go along (such as with long running series), the design and purpose of a character is something that covers their entire existence, such that actions they partake early on are already directly linked to their purpose later on. It's not like in real life where we just live second by second, and our relationships and purposes change. If things change in a game, it's by design, and the change was already a part of the purpose of that character from the very beginning. Aerith was already doomed before FFVII even started, when dealing out roles like "protagonist, antagonist, love interest, etc", that is taken into account, and that is why Aerith was NEVER the love interest, because she was ALWAYS going to die. And it's why Tifa IS the love interest, because no matter who you liked, or were kind to, or expected would end up with Cloud. From before the game ever started, from her first scene on it was already written in stone that at the end of the game, BY DESIGN, Aerith would be dead, and Tifa would "live" with Cloud. People often say that Tifa was made second (which is not exactly true), and that that means that Aerith is the main love interest, but that has it backwards. If that were true, Tifa wouldn't have needed to be created, Tifa was created second specifically because Aerith couldn't be the love interest, and the fact that Tifa wasn't created before that, means that that specifically, is her role to bear. The sentence, "Aerith is Clouds love interest, but she dies, so we created Tifa so that Aerith could continue to be Clouds love interest", is not a coherent sentence.

@IamVendel

3 жыл бұрын

I had to laugh at this. I can't remember the number of times I have seen "Aerith was the intended love interest". I always asked those people if Aerith dying caught the devs off guard? lol

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

@@IamVendel Yeah it's a really bizarre argument. And just in general there is this misconception that Aerith came first, which isn't exactly true. It's more that a single character concept was turned into two.

@pandary3833

3 жыл бұрын

Love the video! Can you do a video on your thoughts on FFVII remake & how they’re gonna handle the “LTD” this time ...?

@ryu855

10 ай бұрын

I know these videos like three years old Did you ever quit what is your opinion about people thinking that cloud had zacks memorys It's been like 15 years since the original came out maybe even 20 and I still getting arguments with people who think that cloud his zacks memories but the game Doesn't not disclose this game doesn't even give you a hint at this If this were true Wouldn't Klout remember how he joined soldier?

@SkoomaDenisen

3 ай бұрын

@@ryu855 I hate to break it to you but that is actually brought up as a hole in Clouds logic. While Cloud is having a mental shut down he questions "How do you even join solider?" (This is when Sephiroth creates that illusion of Nibelhiem and Tifa starts doubting Cloud). Before his mind returns to being delusional, Clouds mind is heavily fragmented and torn by trauma and Jenova cells. Of course it wouldn't be his memories, not his real ones anyway. The only real memories he has are childhood ones and ones connected to Tifa, as those aren't connected to the events of Shinra or Sephiroth.

The Clerith ship has always fascinated me because it requires misremembering and constructing a fantasy about a plot that was about misremembering and constructing a fantasy. Hilarious unintentional irony.

@somebodysnightmare

3 жыл бұрын

Lmao this is so accurate!! Wow!!

@piggles07

3 жыл бұрын

@@somebodysnightmare This isn’t to say Cloud didn’t care about Aeris because if he didn’t, her death wouldn’t have been as sad. It’s that in order to insist on Clerith as endgame canon while pretending Tifa doesn’t exist shows how badly some players were wrapped up in the narrative and missed the plot. SE then pandered to that crowd by regressing Cloud’s in spin-offs, ruining what was a well-written character. Fortunately, SE seems like it’s addressing this issue and throwing shade at these people. To avoid the scene where Cloud jumps off the train with Tifa and instead goes alone, the player has to play at such a poor level that they have to sit there and do nothing so a timer runs out. It’s like the writers are finally pointing out how bad the player is at this game if they deny Cloti’s existence.

@ms.karaasmr5930

3 жыл бұрын

@@piggles07 Oh my goodness! Your interpretation on the train jump scene (w/ Tifa vs alone) on chapter 5 makes sense! I love it!

@mrdarkstar3756

3 жыл бұрын

The Clerith fans pick out things from the 1st third of the game and ignore the last 2 thirds of the game. Clerith fans never want to take about Tifa and Clouds lifestream scene as it's the reveal of the real Cloud and his feelings.

@mrdarkstar3756

3 жыл бұрын

@@piggles07 I want to add to that, every scene Cloud and Tifa are in together he is watching her, like he does as the Shinra grunt . When Tifa is climbing the rafters in Shinra HQ Cloud is following along on the stairs watching her every move. I played the remake numerous times now, the scene of Cloud and Tifa at Aeriths house, to not get that scene you litterally have to snub Tifa in chapter 3 and choose Aerith in the sewer otherwise you always get the Tifa scene, you get barrett if mean to both girls.

This aged like fine wine, having just finished playing Rebirth. You're spot on dude.

Hey, listen to me... listen... It's important: T H A N K Y O U. Like... A L O T. As a writer, no one believes me when I say that there are no more canon options here than Cloud and Tifa. It's clearly been that way since 1997, but we were too young to understand all the complexities. The story never changes, there aren't any plot holes and the compilation completes this canon even more, if that's possible. We never had a choice. It is not "depends on the players". It's Cloud and Tifa, whether we like it or not. Of course, what the canon says does not necessarily stop us from shippingwhat we want to shipp, but the canon is the canon. I don't know why we can't accept it and that's it, as we do with all the other stories. It is the only thing we can do with that and then continue shipping, knowing that it is a headcanon in case you like other couples. In my case, I'm a CloudXTifa person (lucky me), but I also like CloudxShephiroth, TifaxRude, TifaxReno and TifaxZack (yes, Tifa is my favorite >.

@somebodysnightmare

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for your brilliant comment. I am also a writer, an English teacher, and a person with degrees in Literature and English. It blows my mind that people fail to recognize and understand how a plot is constructed because they want to imagine a future scenario for a ship that is not canon. Headcanons are one thing - I, for one, have a very taboo headcanon that crackships SephirothxAerith, but I would never try to justify that as a possible canon outcome. Your description of the Clerith ship as a "Disney" outcome is very fitting. There is no such thing as "Love at First Sight" in the real world, and FFVII strives to be as REAL as it possibly can despite being a "Final Fantasy". The themes of FFVII are incredibly nuanced - loss, finding one's self, corruption - there is no denying that these brilliantly executed themes are why of all of the FFs, FFVII has endured in such wild popularity for as long as it has. As you said, the romance is very much a secondary thing to these incredibly important parts of the story. However, I do think that there is something poignant and important about the romantic subplot of FFVII. And that is that Cloud's motivation for everything he has done, including leaving his home for SOLDIER, which would eventually place him at the center of FFVII's "crisis core" - the Nibelheim event - is centered around how he feels about a girl. That his story as the protagonist is actually resolved because of this girl - that he's saved by her and his consciousness is repaired by her in the Lifestream - As a writer and literary person, I can't think of a more powerful love story, especially one that is so intricately tied to the main character and his arc. In addition, regarding Aerith, the FFVII compilation made sure to go out of its way to show how important Zerith was and is. As the remake unfolds, we will see more of this. The writing that was unclear in 1997 because of tech limits of the day is much clearer now and has been clearer since the earlier 2000s. The affection mechanics of the original game were nothing more than narrative choices for the player, but the canon was always written into the plot. I am very excited that the remake will be able to finally put this to rest, as it has done such a phenomenal job of burying it already just in the first part.

@zae1371

3 жыл бұрын

@@somebodysnightmare Thank you for your beautiful analysis!

@laurajanco2i

3 жыл бұрын

the fact is that Cloud and Tifa are not just romance (like some people think Clerith is, when they don't even get close to platonic), they ARE and represent one of the themes of FF7. They represent growth and discovery of oneself. That's why I get mad when people insist with Clerith, when that ship doesn't offer anything on the plate, but appearences.

I watched this after the remake and I actually feel that the remake is showing this. Hinting at the plot and tifa being so connected to true cloud.

@chibiasta

4 жыл бұрын

Out of the whole cast, Tifa is the only one connected to true Cloud. She is the one guiding his soul, his soul mate. (This sounds so cheesy sorry 😂)

@hraberuka2847

4 жыл бұрын

They are soulmates ❤️

@violetcrimes

3 жыл бұрын

@@chibiasta I actually believe they are twin flames. they strangely fit that criteria almost to a tee.

@laurajanco2i

3 жыл бұрын

@@chibiasta it's not cheesy... it's literally how it is.

@mayamiko684

Жыл бұрын

​@@violetcrimeslol true

I honestly think the Remake makes it even more clear with regard to this. There is no love triangle, in fact Aerith herself seems to suggest there is no love triangle and seems to push Cloud with Tifa, especially in the Japanese dialogue. In the flashback where Elmyra describes how Aerith knew her husband died, Aerith says to Elmyra, "taisetsu na hito ga shinjattayo," meaning "the person you cherish has died." When Aerith tells Cloud they should go to Wall Market to save Tifa, Aerith refers to Tifa as being "taisetsu na hito" to Cloud when she says "taisetsu na hito desho?" meaning "she (Tifa) is the person you cherish, right?" Aerith already knows many things, and she already knows Tifa is "taisetsu na hito" to Cloud, just like she knew the person who was "taisetsu na hito" to Elmyra had died.

@NaomiTCOOKIES

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed. I've seen others come to this conclusion as well. Looking at the discrepancies between the English and Japanese versions, the Japanese vers. seems to be diminishing the love triangle but the Eng vers. seems to still be pushing for it.

@xzvmakiz5171

4 жыл бұрын

Naomi I’m guessing due to love triangle reasons, in the lines that Cloud says Tifa, the English version he says something different, Examples: where Tifa is going up the stairs and cloud grabs her, in the EN ver cloud says “what the hell” in the JP ver he says “Tifa”. When Jessie dies and Cloud sees Tifa crying in the EN ver he says “Hey” in the JP ver he says “Tifa”. In the EN ver when cloud is referring to the group he says “yeah. Where’s the other” or “Wedge-listen to me. You stay here with them”, when in the JP ver he says “Tifa atachiwa” which means “Tifa and the others” he always puts Tifa first and then the group, there plenty more instances where Cloud says Tifa or refers to her but the localization team changes it to something completely different. This can also be with Aerith where there are scenes that aren’t supposed to be romantic but the English translation makes it out to be, an example is the Aerith’s resolution scene where Cloud says “do I have a say in all this” when in reality in the JP version he says “that’s pretty one-sided”, Aerith in that scene also says “it’s not real” in the EN ver, in the JP ver she says “it’s just your imagination”. After the resolution scenes Cloud in the EN ver he says “she is calling out me, I can feel it” but in the JP ver he says “I feel like it’s my destiny”also when you are going up the shinra building and Cloud says “upper floors..maybe near the top...that’s where you are” when in the JP version Cloud does not even acknowledge Aerith at all, Cloud in the JP ver says “Maybe at the top...the very top”(referring to the research laboratory) The translation makes it seem that Cloud is talking to her when in the JP/original script he doesn’t. Maybe the localization team doesn’t wanna make Cloti too obvious or they just want to cause drama revolving shippers or they are bias to one pair.

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

Yes there is basically no love triangle in the Remake. Aerith's resolution shows her saying his feelings are in his imagination and her encouraging him and Tifa to seek eachother. (Also in the Aerith and Tifa resolutions there are Highwind scene references . One from Cloud referencing Tifa's line (You need to embrace this moment, right? (This is probably the last time we have together. So let me embrace this moment) when he asks if he gets a say Aerith responds with his Highwind scene line.) (It's almost dawn/it's almost morning) *that's his say* Finally the LTD killer Aerith smiles knowing Cloud gave the flower to Tifa. Also I think they specifically used "taisetsu na hito" because in World Of Final Fantasy Cloud (As SOLDIER Cloud) uses taisetsu na to refer to Aerith which is used an argument. The Ultimanias also have reffered to Tifa this way. The devs are very obviously referencing different arguments in the LTD in Remake. Johnny even calls Tifa his light.(A KingdomHearts 2 reference)

@back2back379

4 жыл бұрын

@@KageSakura Yes, in the 10th anniversary Ultimania, Tifa is referred to as "taisetsu na josei" to Cloud:いまや家族でもある大切な女性ティファや、かつての仲間からの声授を受け、クラウドは前進する勇気を取りもどす。(With the support of former allies and Tifa, a precious/cherished woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.) While “taisetsu na hito” (大切な人) may not ALWAYS be romantic, although it's usually and most often romantic used in a romantic context, a description as “taisetsu na josei” to someone will certainly be intended to indicate a romantic connection, especially given the context of the rest of the sentence, in which Tifa having a role in Cloud’s family is the focus. Tifa’s role as “taisetsu na josei” to Cloud is brought up in relation to her role as the mother of the children in the family, a family she is said to have formed with Cloud. Tifa's meant to be seen in a romantic way with regard to Cloud, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to describe her in this way. No writer would write in this way, nor have cause to mention these ideas in relation to one another, if they didn’t mean to make it romantic by describing her as a precious/cherished woman with the purpose of defining her relationship to Cloud within the context of a family.

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

@@back2back379 Yeah I definitely see that and the World of Final Fantasy one referring to Aerith in context is not only SOLDIER Cloud saying it but the sentence context itself is not romantic.

Man I’ve been 90% sure these two would be end game for 18 years. Now I’m 100% sure they’ll be confirmed, like ‘CONFIRMED’ confirmed.

@ZhangtheGreat

4 жыл бұрын

Ah, but you forget: Nomura's in charge. With him, expect crazy.

@xzvmakiz5171

4 жыл бұрын

ZhangtheGreat With Nomura in charge, everything is gonna be “vague” and “up to player interpretation” which is the reason this ship war has been going on for 20+ years. I still hope they give us a concrete answer IN the game and not just in Ultimanias. Ultimanias have been pretty clear who ended up with who but some fans twist those statements to fit their narrative.

@Kyfas7

4 жыл бұрын

@@ZhangtheGreat Fun fact, in OG the other writers wanted to kill everyone except for 3 characters, but Nomura stopped them. Also, the others wanted the Remake to be something completely different, and it was Nomura who once again stopped them, and told them they should keep the story mainly intact. Nomura is not that crazy.

@laurajanco2i

3 жыл бұрын

@@xzvmakiz5171 Nojima said that everything will be less vague and less to the player's imagination this time. I hope he was referring to Cloud and Tifa.

@kaage8780

2 жыл бұрын

@@laurajanco2i he meant Cloti. And I dunno, Nomura is a Tifa-guy. He is literally the one who designed Tifa as an ideal woman for Cloud and designed all the Tifa scenes to be perfect. The tunnel-scene was reshoot probably million times 🤣 If the vagueness was up to someone, it would be Toriyama. Since he's probably the only dev (that I know) who prefers Aerith/Clerith. Thank GOD Nojima has the last word on everything.

"Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, he confirms with her feelings that can’t be expressed in words." pg. 394 FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: scenario "For many years, Cloud and Tifa have been holding favor for one another. Facing the impending final battle with Sephiroth, they at last confirm together their feelings of desire for one another." FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol. 2, pg. 23 other ultimania editions talking about the scene: "Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." pg. 15 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega, Cloud’s profile "When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "pg. 27 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega, Tifa’s profile. "When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their feelings for each other in their final hours, and……. " pg. 198 of the FFVII Ultimania Omega, Story Playback "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and clarify them together. "Pg. 118 of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 120 of the book’s Revised Edition, Story Playback "She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." pg. 33 of the Crisis Core Ultimania, Tifa’s profile. "She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. While verifying his memories, they became aware of the feelings each other has been holding." pg. 42 (pg. 44 of the Revised Edition) of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania do i need to say more ?

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Probably, because I've said those things often, and they never seem to convince anyone XD

@mohammadalfattal2902

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread it's up to them canon will be canon beautiful video that ties perfectly with the remake

@mohammadalfattal2902

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread can you please tell us your opinion on the remake now ? how the love story is now presented

@frankbalatbat1804

4 жыл бұрын

Action speaks louder than words at this point so chances are hopefully Square holds nothing back with the fans and destroy the LTD for good this time round.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@Mohammad Al Fattal I probably will, the remake is interesting because it presents us with a meta-narrative. The designers have taken into account two different types of audience, first timers, and those who have played the original, and have made it so that the narrative is unique to each one. The question now is, is what we are hearing actually accurate (is it the plot), or are we also being "lied" to? The classic example is that "don't fall in love with me, even if you think you have, it's not real", these are messages to the fans of course, we read into it, but until the game is finally done we can't be sure our interpretations are correct. I've also seen some great shot analyses concerning the cinematography of the remake, and they an interesting story, but again, the question is, is it intentional, and if it is, are we being mislead?

Maybe Cleriths should be put to lifestream, maybe they'll regain a memory. lol

@xolovetari5511

3 жыл бұрын

lol

46:43 "If Zack DIDN'T die, there would be no chance in hell for Aerith and Cloud ever ending up with each other..." **Rewatches final scene of FFVII Remake** 😄😄😄

@NP-Channel

4 жыл бұрын

this guy is just like a prophet of FF7 universe. His analysis and understanding of this story are at the level of a developer or writer, not at the perspective of a player anymore. :))

@taufikchandra6826

4 жыл бұрын

@@NP-Channel we all know who is maximilian dood, he is a veteran ff7 fan, he played ff7 games many times and never joined cloti or clerith fandom, he is only pure ff7 fans he said tifa is the true goal, tifa is the real waifu..aerith is just a good friend.. everyone who understands FF7 plot says the same thing. Cloud true love is Tifa, and Aerith true love is Zack. If SE just wants to make cloud and aerith as a couple, SE doesn't need to bother making a very strong characters backstory between zackxaerith and cloudxtifa

@vertemouse1156

4 ай бұрын

It's gets even funnier if you think the ending is setting up a Zack and Aerith expansion 😂

This video truly deserves more views.

I think the new novel, Trace of Two Pasts, makes your video even more significant. There's a literary reason why Nojima is setting up so much exposition concerning the interactions and obvious romantic feelings between Tifa and Cloud that began since they were in Nibelheim. You should check out some of the English translations if you haven't already.

I don't think Aerith was even designed to stay beside Cloud in that way, she has never had chances, not even when she was alive. She was more like a guide, that has to stay with the protagonist for some time, to show the player the plot of the story. Someone who has to be loved by the player, not by Cloud and whose end, determines an important turn of events in the story. Not at all in Cloud's life, since for him, purposes, feelings and actions, are not compromised by her death. Cloud's character arc doesn't undergo any changes after Aerith's death and his goals are always the same. In case of Tifa, if she didn't exist, first, nothing in ff7 would have happened, second, you would lack a great part of the backstory and the reason why Cloud got into SOLDIER in the first place. Tifa existing, but dying after, would probably make him, not only lose his mind, but even if he could gain back his memories, healing wouldn't be possible... he would be completely a puppet under Sephiroth's influence. People say that Tifa's character revoves around Cloud, but people have to understand that it's totally the opposite. Tifa is the one who makes every of the most important events take place. -Cloud getting into SOLDIER -Finding a home for Barret and Marlene -her joining Avalanche -Cloud getting into Avalanche because she wanted to keep him in check -Cloud meeting Aerith is the result of him being into Avalanche and it's again because of Tifa. While Aerith determines the beginning and the ending of the physical game (plot), Tifa is the beginning and the ending of Cloud's story(subplot). Is it so difficult for, not only Clerith shippers, but even ff7 fans in general to understand?

@mayamiko684

Жыл бұрын

I love you dude

Thank you for this video, finally someone who understood this story. Up to now the remake is going exactly to the same direction of the original game, despite the changes and added elements. I read here and there many people stating that this time Aerith won't die and she'll end up with Cloud. First of all they seem to forget (SPOILER) that Zack is shown to be alive at the end of the game. We have still no idea of what it'll mean but, it will probably imply his reunion with Aerith. But even with Zack still dead there's something that makes it really hard for me to accept as probable a romance between Cloud and Aerith: - Zack (Cloud's best friend and mentor) literally gave his life in order to protect and save Cloud. Cloud was more dead than alive when they escaped Shinra manor, but Zack carried him anyway, even if that slowed him down and made him more interceptable. - Zack could have gone anywhere to hide from Shinra army but decided to head back to Midgar to meet Aerith (his girlfriend) again, implying that he loved her. This makes the whole topic of a romance between Cloud and Aerith morally unconceivable to me. Cloud being with Tifa in a "more-than-friendly way" is implied in the novels written by Nojima. Case of Tifa starts with Cloud determined, and somehow happy, to start a new life "After this I think I'll be okay...because I have you this time - You've always had me - What I mean is kind of different". It's not exactly what you say to a girl when you've just lost the love of your life. At the end of "A Turks side story" Cloud himself compares his family (he, Tifa, Denzel and Marlene) with Kyrie and Evan, a couple (romantic one) who adopted a kid. Chronologically, Case of Denzel is the last entry, set 2 years after Advent Children, and it is implied that the "family" still exists. Still trying to interpret it as a family of friends is just...blind I think. The author is constantly telling us how the things are.

This was such a thoughtful and well presented analysis. You articulated things that I have been trying to explain since 1997 and with the release of the Remake, I am of the belief that SE is going out of their way to clean up their original exposition to make it much more clear. Excellent job and thank you for sharing. Looking forward to hearing more from you as the next parts of the game are released.

YES! I have been saying this since 1997. I couldn't agree more. Cloud x Tifa ship is not really a ship, it's the truth.

Even with all the rational, logical, clear comprehension presented here notwithstanding, what I feel truly sad about for those who ship CA, is, as you said near the end, they are missing out on one of the most beautiful love stories written for a game (or any other media for matter). All the beautiful things they want for Cloud and Aerith (star-crossed lovers, the pining for each other over years, the childhood friend to lovers trope, being there for each other and saving each other, the raising a family together, etc.) are all there for Cloud and Tifa. I wish they could see it and appreciate it for all its worth.

Man, the more the ff7 remake is progressing (along with ToTP, ever crisis, and now even the rebirth trailers), your analysis is proving to be more and more right. The creators so far are showing they understand ff7 more than we know and are reinforcing the points you have made.

Great video and great analysis. I deal in what actually happens, not what could have happened. Whether Cloud was nice to Aerith or Tifa at the beginning third of the game(he could be nice and flirt with both of them inside the narrative as well), he always will end up with Tifa... it's fairly conclusive I don't understand why that is so hard to see.

This is exactly what i understood from the story. Blows my mind, people ignore everything you just said!

Also, it should be noted that maiden who walks the planet is non canon by omission of official materials. This is fact. Besides, the proper address of something *unofficially* canon is to call it not canon. That’s just being accurate. If someone points at something red and says, “this is green” and you say “no it’s not” to hear them go “well it *could* be green, you don’t know!” You’re gonna think they’re crazy. You can’t be two things at time if those things contradict each other. Anyway, that you could put together a vid so clear and coherent despite the first game’s mistranslations and format is amazing. You deserve a victory fanfare.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much, yeah, the canonicity of Maiden is pretty disputed. I know that it's never been mentioned by SE when discussing canon, but I do admit to lending SOME credibility to it. The reason for this is basically "nuance". There are differences between 1997 and 2020. When the game came out, the gaming community was a very different place with more freedom. The assumption was that FFVII would be a standalone game, never really to be touched again. You can see this in the general approach to the series, it's less corporate. The reason that there are so many seemingly weird and random enemies in that game is I think because the individual artists and developers simply had more freedom. Over the years that has changed, FFVII has become valuable, VERY valuable, and as a result, it's being handled with more care. Media that came out in 1997 had less need to be accurate concerning the exact nature of feelings, and exact wording, hell, even the story itself wasn't as concrete as it is now. We were still very much in a "the main character is the most important character" mindset, with everything having to revolve around them. Sentiments like "well, Aerith might have liked Zack at first, but obviously now she much prefers the main character" were natural back then. The developers didn't care that much about Zack yet, hell, we barely even hear anything about Clouds mother, and nothing about his father. Because storytelling was more limited, and the story wasn't about them. Side characters were truly relegated to the side, and parents often mainly existed because they biologically had to, they were often an afterthought that got in the way of the story, and therefore had to be removed somehow. This is all to point out that times have changed, gaming has changed, FFVII has changed, and the story has grown with it. I don't think canonicity is an all or nothing scenario. Maiden was written in 2005, back when only FFVII was out, by an outside writer, who was allowed to add in his own interpretations. All of this makes it mostly a fanon commentary, but it was still approved. still, I don't think that says much. 23 years is a long time to get false positives in a franchise that has been touched by this many people. For a meaningful discussion on what is and isn't canon, you really need to look further than individual datapoints. You have to look at how the characters and their importance has changed. The fact that Crisis Core is a thing, and the increased importance that give Zacks character and his bond with Aerith is simply important. That's can't be ignored without being intellectually dishonest. I honestly don't much care about what the developers intentions were in 1997, when what FFVII really was was still fluid and less like holy scripture. The story has grown for 23 years and it's grown consistently in one direction, with more emphasis on Zack and Aerith, and more on Cloud and Tifa. Even if it could be somehow proven that in the minds of the developers in 1997, Aerith really did love THE REAL Cloud more than Zack, and it was genuine and not a red herring. Then honestly by sheer circumstantial evidence alone I think I'd be able to conclude that that was obviously retconned. The remake is making that clearer than ever.

@mostlynoise7995

4 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly. If not retroactively de-canonized by the compilation, it was certainly discarded by the compilation and it’s fans. A casualty of fanon, to be sure.

@natsukiarima3189

4 жыл бұрын

MAIDEN WHO TRAVELS THE PLANET actually pushed cloti..

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@natsukiarima3189 Well, it simply says things that can be used as evidence for several things, yeah, I'd say it's better for Cloti than for Clerith but for some of the reasons mentioned above, proof in situations like this isn't as straightforward or binary as it is in for instance a courtcase. In a court case someone is either guilty or they aren't. And if they were guilty once, they will continue to be guilty. The claims made by shippers are more varied than a simple guilty vs non-guilty. And the story can change over time, and the chance of evidence simply being inaccurate it also greater. Because of all that, combined with the fact that it's not really canon, I just give it a very low weight/importance when it comes to how much credibility it lends to either side.

I really hope the third part will finally put a rest to this shipping war so we can move forward lol

@Nexuish

3 ай бұрын

Dilution is one helluva drug. It won’t die, and Cleriths won’t kneel, even if the trilogy has Cloud look into the camera and say he loves Aerith as a dear friend and he has romantic love for Tifa. Take the No Promises to Keep song. If you know the plot, that song should close the book in itself… but people think it’s saying the exact opposite? It’s kinda nuts…

@user-fc5sq1jy5m

2 ай бұрын

Rebirth kinda did exactly that though already. It's not really a debate anymore.

@jt5660

Ай бұрын

It's only still a debate on Twitter. Everyone, their grandmas, and even aliens know that Cloud and Tifa are a thing.

4 dislikes are obviously Cleriths lol. Great video, concise and well-presented

I'm 3 years late to this but I have to write this comment anyway, because among all the arguments and essays and what's not, reasonably or not, this video the only one that addresses the love triangle issues (or the lack there of) objectively through the narrative and plot view. I've just finished playing FFVII OG and FF7 Remake, and here are some of my inputs, through the same narrative and plot view. Disclaimer: I like Tifa, and support Cloud x Tifa, mostly because the pairing makes sense more, story-wise. And I don't take into account any side materials (novel, Ultimania, guidebook, because those may or may not adhere to the story presented in the game as it's intended to be). 1. Back when I first played FFVII OG as a kid, I didn't think much about the love triangle issue. With my limited English and life experience at the time, I didn't see a clear answer as to who Cloud is in love with, who Cloud loves MORE, or if he, in the present, is in love with anyone :))))) The game never explicitly said and showed clearly that. The game did said/showed (and this part we can all agree) that he HAD a crush on Tifa. But even I, who like Tifa, still shrugged if off as yeah, childhood friends, childhood crush, past thing. The triangle war was simply the war of which girl PEOPLE want Cloud to be with. 2. As I replayed FFVII a few times later, and most recently, right before I played FFVII, it comes clear to me that: "Hey, there's never a love triangle to begin with." Why? Let's disregard all the optional scene and choice dialogues (meaning who drags Cloud out on a Gold Saucer date won't be taken into account), Cloud's canon interaction with Aerith is very minimal. If my memory serves me correctly the only portion that they spend time together is the Sector 5's slum and Wall Market's section. And during that, the only time that he shows any softness towards her is when he jokes about her being a SOILDER candidate, and they laugh together. The conversation in the park has choices dialogue so I don't count that. After that, and the sewer section, Aerith gets taken by Shinra, and commence the rescue mission. During the whole rescue mission, they barely interactive personally. In the prison scene, Aerith is put in a separate cell, but Cloud and Tifa is put together. I could try to give a story-wise explanation for the cellmate selection here (Aerith is the prized specimen so she is kept separately; Barret and Red XIII is the "fiery" team so they're together; then Cloud and Tifa), but I don't think it matters much. What matters is the lack of interaction between Cloud and Aerith on a personal level here (and in contrast, the "closeness" of Cloud and Tifa), and it fits well with the story. Then comes the escape from Shinra Building, during which Tifa choose to stay behind for Cloud. The arrangement just fits best for the story and gameplay. Why? The gang comes to rescue Aerith, so her escape is the priority, so she can't stay behind waiting for Cloud (that would defeat the purpose). Red XIII can't stay back for Cloud, because he barely know Cloud - he has no reason to, and he also wants to escape. Barret can't, because, it's gonna be gay :))))) Who would let 2 girls running with a dog while he waits for another dude? :)))))) Also, the next boss fight is in the elevator where you can only do long range attack, so a gun-man here and 2 mages make more sense, battle-wise (of course there's the Long Range Attack Materia, but you get my reason, right?). After that, you don't get anymore non-optional interaction-on-a-personal-level scene between Cloud and Aerith (except for that one line in Cosmo Canyon, at the bonfire, where Cloud said "but I'm... we're here for you, right"; and Gongaga scene, which is optionally entirely, and even the dialogue is choice dialogue), until The Temple of Ancients. And that portion is actually Aerith's character arc, and it doesn't have much to do with Cloud personally. Cloud is related to that arc, of course, but that's because of Sephiroth, not because of Aerith. Again, the stress here is, on personal level. It means that they are both related to the story (or more specifically, Sephiroth, at the point of the game), just not together. Cloud's story with Sephiroth actually has nothing to do with Aerith. And Aerith's story with Sephiroth is not related directly to Cloud. And then the infamous end of Disc 1. My point is that, throughout the game, there's actually not much going on between Cloud and Aerith, non-optionally, to actually develop into anything romantically (she didn't even get the date that she made Cloud agree to, canonically). It just doesn't make sense, story-telling-wise, to make him in love with her. All the choice dialogues that you get to choose to be "romantic" to her serves 2 purposes: 1) to get you involve in the game (remember, it's a game after all) and 2) to bring you high and drop you hard by the end of disc 1. 3. Back to Tifa. Again, drop all the optional stuff, what do you get with Tifa? The history of being childhood friend, and the hero promise. She and Cloud are put in the same prison cell in Shinra Building, explained above, story-wise. She stays behind waiting for him, also explained above as to why she's the best choice, story-wise. When Cloud is telling the story of Nibelhelm 5 years ago, she shows some reaction (others just listen, because they are clueless about the event). In Junon, after the incident with Priscilla, the voice in Cloud's head mentions Tifa. At the bonfire in Cosmo Canyon, she voices her concern about whether Cloud is Cloud. THEN (her major presence so far) is at Northern Crater where Cloud is being mind-f**cked by Sephiroth. Tifa being present in that scene is non-optional, and she has interaction with both Cloud and Sephiroth. Then the famous Lifestream scene. The Highwind scene. and if I have to count, the ending FMV, during which Cloud reaches out to a hand, seemingly Aerith's, but it turns out to be Tifa's, and then they dangle together on the cliff, all the while saying they can meet Aerith :))))) As said, Tifa is actually present and has more interaction with Cloud than Aerith is. She has always been there, albeit a bit in the shadow. Now, that still doesn't mean that just because so Cloud is in love with Tifa. The point here is that considering how all the interaction is presented, Cloud being in love with Tifa makes more sense than he being in love with Aerith story-wise, IF he's ever be in love with either of them. Otherwise, it's just illogical and downright bad writing. This is not a romance novel, or a harem anime where love (and all the drama with love) is the center focus. You, or the game developers, can pull an Uno Reverse Card and said "Cloud is in love with Aerith. His crush on Tifa is just a child thing. Once she helped him regain his self and memories, they are now just friend. He has come to love Aerith and still loves her now." o_O The hell was that. If that happens, the whole Life Stream scene and Cloud's back story reveal become pointless. 4. A bit more on the Highwind scene. When everybody talks about the Highwind scene, they talk about whether Cloud and Tifa had sex (I didn't even know about that until much later). But regardless of whether they did anything in the Chocobo stable, it's a scene that can just not happen (weak writing though if that's the case) and we can just proceed to the finally battle. But they (the game maker) choose to make it happen. Why? To show that everybody has a home, a family to return to. Barret has Marlene, Red XIII has Cosmo Canyon, Cid has Shera, Cait Sith has his parents, Yuffie has his father, Vincent has his coffin and Lurceria; heck, if Aerith is still alive, she still has her adoptive mother Elmyra. But Cloud and Tifa, they have no one else, except each other. ------ Phew, that's a long essay. Long story short, with the way things are presented IN THE OG, I THINK it makes more sense for Cloud and Tifa to be together (happily or unhappily or whatever, that's another story).

Subscribed! I'm glad to fins your channel, your way of explaining is so comprehensive and well arranged

Tifa x Cloud Forever ❤️ ❤️ ❤️

God, this video speaks to me on so many levels, and it's stuff about the plot I have always tried to explain to people. I've said it before when back you up in the comments, but I'll say it again; you're a hero.

You’ve explained so thoroughly everything we have been trying to say. Thank you so much for this. I’d ask that you consider making a secondary video essay to accompany this one now that the game has been out for a bit and you have that much more context to dissect.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

I've been thinking about it, in general I've been thinking a lot since making this video and looking at the story from a lot of different perspectives, and each really deserves it's own video. You can look at FFVII through a bunch of different lenses that really work well. The question is mostly which of these lenses/interpretations were deliberately designed by the developers, and which just happen to work really well by cooncidence. There is the kabbalah angle, which is certainly intended, but then there are themes like "fantasy vs reality", that might be coincidental, or the way Tifa and Aeriths stories are a perfect mirroring of each other. The remake as well has given us a lot of new stuff to work with as well, and right now I kind of get the feeling that the love triangle is being demolished, there are a lot of changes, and they all seem to go one way, towards Cloud and Tifa being made more concrete, Zack and Aeriths bond being reinforced, and Aerith stepping out of the entire triangle. I have a suspicion that Nojima is trying to make it a lot less ambiguous for the final installation of the compilation.

@ash_bandicoot4

4 жыл бұрын

Ahh, yes I'd love to see another video of your take on the remake! ^-^

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@ash_bandicoot4 That's great to hear. Right now I am just spending a lot of time reading into the Tifaret/Sefiret connections and while it's really interesting, it is also really difficult to tell if anything there can be used to make actual predictions XD Part of the issue here seems to be that some of these metaphysical concepts are vague enough that it makes it really hard to tell if the patterns you're seeing are actually there, or are just being imposed on it by you. If something is vague enough, and you squint hard enough, you can always find ways to make it fit.

@NP-Channel

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread you are really on point. Sometimes something has a meaning just because we made it up, we try so hard to give it a meaning (in the way we prefer) and then believing that it's true, while actually there's no meaning at all.

I have seen this video finally thank you for explaining this.. more clear i was never good with words but Clerith seems like the love interest at first but if you look into the story.. Cloud 's love for Tifa is always there

I can link this video for any Aerith is canon shipper

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Haha, it's not really proof as much as it is an explanation though. I've started writing one massive essay though where I basically hope to just address everything from all angles, but it's gonna be massive, would be several hour long videos I think by the time it's all over and done with. I know from experience that I usually don't have the commitment needed to complete such an undertaking XD.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@mrdarkstar3756 Yeah, one of the weirdest arguments is "The developers obviously wanted to you get Aeriths date on your first playthrough, that means it's the one that's most important". That fundamentally misinterprets what first and second playthroughs are all about. The second playthrough is the one where you can experience the plot with the relevant context needed to make sense of everything. First playthroughs are for misguiding the player, it's the second playthrough where the player gets to understand the plot the way it really is.

@mrdarkstar3756

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread the Remake Cloud treats Tifa more warmly than the original his persona though cold like the original hes actively very protective of Tifa in the story. Cloud ariund Aerith is just awkward and listens to her with signs of bewilderment and confusion because she brushes off his tough guy act. Later comforts Tifa via a tight hug in the game, the Aerith scene is distant as he cant even touch Aerith because shes a projection but hey its love.

This is mazing ! This deserves so much more views!

@DutchDread

10 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Superb video, really enjoyed seeing the way that you drew clear distinctions between plot and narrative. Please also do one for FF7R!

@DutchDread

10 ай бұрын

Remake is actually kind of a special situation, since until it is done we can't be sure which we are seeing, plot or narrative. There are scenes in remake which are clearly intended to be understood differently between first time players and those who have played the OG. For instance, Aerith saying that any potential feelings Cloud might be feeling are imaginary. For those who know FFVII this is a clear hint at Clouds fake persona. But since the story has an element of changing destiny we don't know if hints towards future events are supposed to serve as real hints towards the plot of the story in remake, or if they're a just a second layer of narrative meant especially for old time fans. Personally I am of the opinion that the core points of the plot will change less than some people think. The reason being two-fold. For one, changing major parts of the plot would interfere with pre-established themes of the story (such as the irreversibility of death). This would undermine the originals message and I don't think they'd do that, or at least I hope not because it would be a major loss of a great story. Secondly, people seem to think that you can change what happens next in a story just like that. But stories aren't like real life. In real life you can get randomly hit by a car and have your story end right there. In a story though what happens always follows logically from what came before, there is always set-up. If a character randomly dies without having an impact or point in the story then that's a waste of time, it's literally "pointless". If character does seemingly die randomly, such as is the case in FFVII, then you'll find that that death had a specific point for the plot or themes of the story, and that it followed logically from what came before. It is not a coincidence that the character whose race "must return to the planet" and "guide us to the promised land" is the character who dies. Likewise it's not a coincidence that Tifa is the one who saves Clouds soul from the lifestream. Those events are set-up from the start and cannot randomly be changed. The future of a story cannot be changed without changing the past as well. Since that is set in stone, so is the future to a large degree. The "promised land" is the place of supreme happiness. It's etymologically linked to the ultimate heaven of the gnostic faith, aka, the seventh heaven. It's not a coincidence that Tifa lives at the 7th heaven (with Cloud), and that her final limit break is the "final heaven". It's not a coincidence that "the PROMISE" is between Tifa and Cloud. Because the ultimate thematic reveal of the story, is that for Cloud to obtain ultimate happiness,for him to reach the "promised land", or "the land of promise" in japanese, he must reach the state in which he can fulfill "the promise", THAT is his ultimate happiness. To do that he must reach a state of enlightenment, to follow the paths of the "sefirot" to become a perfect being, aka, an enlightened being. That doesn't mean throw away your humanity and become a god, like Sefiroth does (like the villains always do). But to embrace your humanity. Cloud must return to his true self, discarding his idealized soldier persona, when he does so he learns that he was there when Tifa needed him. Aka, by embracing his flawed human self he got to the place he needed to be to fulfill his promise. Aerith is destined to help Cloud reach his promised land, which is the state he needs to be in to obtain his ultimate happiness, which is being capable of protecting Tifa. It is unlikely for those bigger plot threads to change in the remake. So it's possible to analyze remake with them in mind. But until it's all over and done with we can't be certain unfortunately.

Coming to watch this again... to cleanse my soul of all the LTD noise and confusion. You are literally doing God's work my man... and I say that as an atheist, haha. Perfect analysis that not only encapsulates *the truth* but my personal feelings on how this question has been handled by the fandom over the years. If you play FF7 OG through to completion, there is no ambiguity, no choose your own adventure mechanics, no "it depends on...". Where the LTD is concerned, there is a very clear story being told that is not up for interpretation. I am very passionate about this topic not only because I'm a huge Cloti fan but because it is mind-boggling and extremely frustrating to see facts and basic, straightforward story points warped, ignored, and twisted to fit one's own agenda. The willful misinterpretation of the heart of the story (the revelation of True!Cloud and what drives him) is a fascinating psychological story in and of itself. Square Enix hasn't helped, of course, stoking the flames over the years by remaining purposely vague in interviews, etc. But all the proof you could want is at the source -- the game itself. That the FF7 Remake is heavily and blatantly Cloti so early in the game is shocking coming from Square but at the same time perfectly in keeping with what we know to be the true nature of their relationship. Keep up the good fight!

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, well, right now I am on a 80 long reply chain somewhere on youtube with a dude who honestly thinks that not only does Cloud not love Tifa, he literally doesn't care for anyone else except Aerith. Including the children. These people are insane, they have to resort to painting Cloud as some sort of psychopath. The thing is, a lot of people like pretending that it's up to the players interpretation who Cloud likes, that that is why you got to "choose". But what they don't get is that literally all those choices only exists while Cloud is not himself. As soon as Cloud gets his own memories back, there are no more choices, and the choices that you did make barely have any effect after that. No matter what you do it's his feelings for Tifa that get his memories back, it's Tifa who he confesses his feelings to, the choices the player make are illusionairy, and do no more than reflect Clouds shattered psyche, from the point of view of the real Cloud there was never any real doubt. It's interesting that remake has removed almost all choices, and the now "canon" choices almost unilaterally are the ones that favor Tifa, in fact I've seen some analysis that conclude that if you make the choices in the OG that reflect the remake, you've already gotten enough points for the HA highwind scene (or maybe that you'd have more affection points for Tifa than Aerith, one or the other). Lets just hope that the rest of the games keep this up :)

@random_guitar_dude3817

3 жыл бұрын

@DutchDread can you post links to this heated discussion mate?

This is definitely one of the best argumentations about the subject I have ever seen. Nevertheless I think there's a common misunderstanding from both shipping sides about the Highwind sequence. Fans spent 24 years debating about which one of the two scenes is the canon one, what happens after the fade black, the chocobo stable, if it proves their love or it's just the desperate act of two people who are going to die. Nobody seems to wonder _why_ Ultimanias (that don't establish the canon but describe the canon) focus only on the High affection scene. I think (ready to be massively downvoted) that what happens after the fade black, whether Cloud and Tifa kiss, make love or fall immediately asleep, is totally irrelevant. In the High affection scene Cloud focuses on three points: 1) he talks about the promise, 2) he talks about "finding the truth", 3) he talks about feelings he doesn't know how to express. They are exactly the three points addressed during the Lifestream sequence. All of these moments are linked to an important moment with Tifa and a failure toward her (Mt Nibel, SOLDIER, Nibelheim incident). These failures are the reason why he needed to create a false identity and "forget" about his feelings for her. When Tifa explores Cloud's subcoscious not only they confirm the genuinity of his memories but Cloud has the opportunity to come to terms with his perceived failures. When we get to the Highwind scene Cloud revisits the three points freed of his sense of guilt and he renews the good sides of each one of them: protect her, find the truth together, confess his feelings. Again, whether they make love or not at this point is irrelevent, if they do it's just the cherry on top, if they don't it doesn't change the state of things: confessing their mutual feelings is the *consequence of the fulfilment of Real-Cloud's character arc* . And it is consistent with what happens at the beginning of Case of Tifa. When Cleriths point out that the low affection scene is canon as well, or that the romance is up to the player they miss the big point. The other scene leaves Cloud's arc unfulfilled. It's a short shallow speech that doesn't confirm or discard his feelings for anyone. If it was up-to-the-player he would at least mention Aerith, but it doesn't happen. Affection points are not there to show who loves who. The players get the low affection scene if they don't interact with the other characters, don't explore the environment, don't understand they're against the use of Mako, don't understand the basic concept that Tifa is Cloud's friend and he's supposed to be kind with her even if they prefer Aerith: it's a punishment, just like failing Huge materia quests. It is possible, and I'd say extremely logical, to get both Aerith's date (important to establish the connection between Cloud and Zack) AND the high affection Highwind scene. Many fans are theorizing (or hoping) that in the Remake Tifa will die and Aerith will restore Cloud's mind and later spend the night under the Highwind. All these people refuse to recognize how much Cloud's character arc is tied with Tifa's, that it's not just a matter of "remembering" the past, but "accepting" the past. The two girls are not interexchangeable, romance is not up to us. The reason why Jenova shields him from knowing the truth is because he can't bear the truth until he comes to terms with it. No matter how much SOLDIER Cloud is attracted by Aerith (or better, redirecting the feelings for the "girl in a pinch" on the one who asked him to be her bodyguard), real-Cloud revolves around another girl. Indeed " _You can't fall in love with me, even if you think you have it's not real_ ".

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I've said before that there is a definite mistaken pre-occupation in the fandom about the "how" rather than the "why", and the stuff you bring up is basically what I point to as well. People constantly try to find reasons for how Aerith could survive, and how she could help Cloud regain his memories, but all of it missed the more important "why" of Clouds storyarc. The entire "jenova" thing is irrelevant from a storytelling perspective, yes, Jenova cells allowed Cloud to create a false identity, but that's just the pretty package that the REAL story is wrapped in. And the real story, like every good story, is a story about man in conflict with himself. Aerith can't replace Tifa because even if she could mechanically, she can't narratively. Because, as you pointed out, the emotional resolutions of Clouds arc happens in the hw scene, and it's too tied up with Tifa.

@underthestars53

3 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Totally. The same logic applies to the theory that Aerith could lead the Lifestream without being dead. Mechanically she _could_ , for the simple reason that she has magical powers and magic is always a wild-card in fiction, but her death is not pointless. She has to become the counterbalance of Sephiroth in the afterlife, the Lifestream White vs Lifestream Black, the yin and yang of the FFVII lore, and if it was already hammered in Otwtas and AC, Remake focuses even more on this duality. That's her role as a Cetra and those who desperately want her human side to overshadow the Cetra's one do nothing but spit on her character. That's my problem with the fiercest AeriS stans. To validate the Clerith ever after endgame they need to twist and ruin her at the point that there's nothing more left than a badly written love-at-first-sight selfish Disney princess. Exactly how Maiden depicts her, and guess why SE never bothered to take it slightly into account. Everytime these fans try to attenuate the bonds between the two basic pairings, magnifying the "platonikku" and the "womanizer" over all the themes of CC, and arbitrarily stating that Cloud never had feelings for Tifa in the first place, they deprive the characters of the triggering cause that set into motion their destinies. Everytime they try to impose the "Cloud will always pine for Aerith" mantra they spit on the basic human dynamics as regards loss and guilt and make the worst disservice to the characters and their creators. It's just a simple matter of common sense: if the devs created a whole game that shows that Clerith is nothing but a reproposal of Zerith, and they inextricably tied Cloud and Tifa in every single piece of the compilation, can it realistically mean that all they wanted to show is that Clerith is endgame? It wasn't exactly rocket science even in the OG to understand that if Cloud is impersonating Zack and coincidentally he has a sort of flirt with Zack's girlfriend, maybe the two things are correlated, and while you had multiple choices with both girls Cloud could only be mean to Aerith, EVEN during her date, meaning that they probably wanted to highlight his conflicting feelings for her. CC only closes the circle creating two parallel couples instead of leaving a loser out of the triangle, but at this point we are far beyond ridiculous. It would be so much more satisfying to accept that Clerith is a beautiful, important but transient romance that steams from the reunion of Aerith and "the SOLDIER", that this relationship is the result of a tragic misunderstanding and it's fulfilled within the SOLDIER-Cloud arc.

@ghadeeer

2 жыл бұрын

aerith is the last person alive who is a cetra and that makes her the only person capable of ending the external conflict of the story tifa is the last person alive who knew who cloud was before he became who he isnt and that makes her the only person capable of ending the internal conflict of the story anyone who thinks one of them can take the others role is insane. funny how these "aerith fans" dont understand aerith at all

@kaage8780

2 жыл бұрын

@@ghadeeer well, that's because they don't. They don't know Aerith, they don't know Cloud and they don't know anything about VII in general since they just fiercely try to prove a point which is never there.

So far i have only watched one minute and after being obsessed with this game for years all i can say agreed

Love this so much ! Just plain simple explanation of the story. Btw, hope you have read TOTP, they provide much needed context to Tifa & Cloud's childhood, where they did ineed play as kids but later on drifted apart (Cloud's jealousy most likely the trigger). Anyway, regardless this aged like fine wine, thanks for your work !

Excellent video, I really enjoyed listening to this. I’ve seen your posts shared by Dipper

@DutchDread

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, I've heard a lot about you from Dipper as well.

Thanks for this great video. I'm a Cloti shipper but I also like Aerith... I had the feeling Cloud did have some sort of love for Aerith... but after your video I'm convinced he didn't and now feel kinda silly because your video makes so much sense (can't fall in love in one week with a fake persona deal). I always felt that Cloti was the canon ship and that Aerith was hinted at being another love interest just for the sake of it. But your video is very clear and makes a lot of sense! His guilt in OTWTAS and Advent Children makes more sense that it's about himself and that's why he distances himself from the ones he does love.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Well, he still loves her in a way, it's a broad term. He still cherishes her memory, and even though the feelings were in some way artificial, doesn't mean they weren't felt. It's just that that's not the place she has in his heart afterwards, or the story, the place of a lost love. Cloud loves Tifa, in that aspect he's not conflicted after regaining his memories.

This was so beautiful explained. I absolutely love FFVII. When I was younger, I was only able to watch my brother play this game. However, I immediately fell in love with Tifa. I was so drawn to her because she was simple, relatable, shy, tough and a badass when fighting. In my later teen, I was finally able to play the game and I just thought the purpose was to save the Planet from Sephiroth's destruction, obviously not quite having the ability to grasp the story fully. Now that I'm much older, having the opportunity to replay it again and now your analysis, I will confess that I have a newfound love and respect for the game. With FFVII: Rmake, all I have to say is WOW. I'm also pretty anxious as to where they plan on going with this, but I'm also eager to see the interactions between Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith.

Excellent analysis! I come back to listen to this when I’m feeling anxious about the uncertainty to come in the later chapters.

@laurajanco2i

3 жыл бұрын

the uncertainty comes mostly from wrong traslations, because if you knew Japanese, Italian, French etc., these are actually more accurate than the english version. What makes me mad is that I actually like the eng VAs more than the japanese ones (except for Cloud), so I force myself to watch both versions. One for the VAs and the other one for the Italian subs.

Whoa! Just finish watching this whole video. All I can say is that you have done your homework and i love this analysis. Beautifully & Factually Written. Well Done Mate

Yes, cloud is love Tifa.

A Genie *Appears* Genie: I will grant you 3 wishes Me: 1: I need a Tifa Plushie 2: Make cloti canon 3: Grant me 100 more wishes

Great video👍

@DutchDread

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks

I don't even know why this is a competition anyway, both exist in the story and both have value to the narrative and plot. Clerith is a minor existence to help create the unreliable narrator story, it still serves a purpose. CloTi is just the canon ship and that's it, it's kinda hard to continue romancing a relationship when one of them is dead.

@adamnesico

9 күн бұрын

If there is a canon one, Id say is Clerith. Is hard, yes. And Cloud still did it.

Great video! I really like how you explain the difference between story, plot & narrative. In remake it´s clearer then ever, that there is no love triangle, but there are still a few clerith defenders on the road who interpret everything in their own way and simply overlook other things. I have been tired of this discussion for so long ... I like it that you explain it here not only with visible elements but from all 3 perspectives. Very well done! =)

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much. Yeah, there will always be people who try to defend anything. I had an argument a while back with someone who thought Clerith was canon, and he used one of the most detached from reality arguments I've ever heard. He actually pretended that it was confirmed that Clouds promised land was with Aerith because, get this. The following quote: *_The place where he awakens - That is Cloud’s Promised Land. As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet. When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma - his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself. And when he turns around - “she” is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness … And so they too go back to where they belong. Back to the current of life flowing around the planet_* -.10th AU. I honestly had to ask him how in the world he thought this quote, which pretty explicitly explains that Clouds promised land is in the World of the living, with Tifa, actually proves that his promised land is with Aerith. And he actually answered that it's because he woke up in the church..... When someone is that far gone, there is really no persuading them anymore, it's become a religion, it even has churches.

@ErinOnline

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread oh that´s .. let´s call it creative ^^' My last discussion was like: "I´m no Clerith fan, I just see it objective - and you should do so too, because objectively the official Couple is Clerith. CLoTi fans are just twisting the truth, have no verifiable evidences and are just ignoring the obvious. And they should think about if they know what love is." That was ... well. Interesting. ^^'

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@ErinOnline Love is obviously when you know someone for a week while having braindamage and then obsess over them for the rest of eternity. Not that shit that Cloud and Tifa had, that was just infatuation XD

@ErinOnline

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Not even infatuation! After all, she forced him to make that promise ever since she heard he wanted to be a hero. She is so manipulative! ;)

@ErinOnline

4 жыл бұрын

thats what my "no Clerith-Fan, just an objectiv player with a lot of story-knowledge" says^^'

This is the best analysis video of Final Fantasy VII I've ever seen in my life, congratulations. I had never noticed these things in the game; I thought romance was a completely secondary thing in the story. But your video left me fascinated by how important and well-written it is. (Honestly, I'm afraid they might mess it up in the future 😅) I would like to know what you think about the romance issue in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth? Do you believe it's being well developed? I feel like they really want to put an end to this love triangle debate, given how different the scenes at the Gold Saucer were between Aerith and Tifa.

@DutchDread

2 ай бұрын

I often hear people say things like "FFIVI isn't a romance story". But this is really weird to me because it kinda implies that a story can only be one thing. In my opinion FFVII is one of the most romance heavy stories of the golden age FF games. If you look at a Yuna/Tidus, or a Garnet/Zidane, arguably even Rinoa/Squal, there is nothing about their internal arcs that is fundamentally tied to romance. This is unsurprising as they all meet at the start of the game. Who they are at the start of the game is fundamentally unrelated to their feelings for each other, those only affect the story in so far as they affect and change THEM. But for most those impacts could easily be non-romantic and nothing would change. Zidanes impact on Garnet isn't because of their romance but because of his actions. The romance simply is another result of those same actions. His actions cause Garnet to change, and therefore she falls in love with him. And while Zidane is a bit more flirtatious the same can be said for him, while he is superficially motivated by "cute girl", his actual creed of "you don't need a reason to help people" is what really defines his character. Same with Yuna and Tidus, they're important to each other, they go through a lot, and they fall in love. But Cloud isn't why Yuna is on a pilgrimage, and while her feelings help her through some decisions those same decisions would or could have been made either way. Yuna didn't need Tidus to be in love with her to decide not to sacrifice her guardians for the final summoning. The same cannot be said for Cloud and Tifa. You cannot have Cloud without Tifa. His feelings for her are the bedrock upon which this story is built. It's the original cause. It is what explains why Cloud did what he did, why he joined soldier, why he developed a fear of failure, why he hid in Nibelheim. Clouds love for Tifa is necessary to understand him as a character throughout the story and each decision he makes. Which is why people who don't take that into account always have very ill conceived notions about his thoughts and reasonings, especially in Advent children. I do think Rebirth is handling it quite well at the moment. While it has so far left room for interpretation the way it's done so is very interesting. I liken it to how you control the weapons in the lifestream in gongaga, you can kinda go left, or right, but ultimately you end up in the same place. There is some wiggle room, but no matter what you do, Tifa is always romantic. But if you completely ignore it you can kinda squint and pretend it's not that important. Her standard scenes hint at romance, her optional scenes are overtly romantic from both sides. And hint at a lot of things that still need to be revealed (such as Tifa thinking she's getting ahead of herself again, calling back to her thoughts in ToTP when she thought Cloud was calling her to the water tower to confess). Meanwhile Aerith is never overtly romantic, because that's not the story being told. But the game leaves enough leeway for you to kinda see it like that if you really want to. With her the most romantic version of her story has her extremely conflicted over Zack and Cloud while the worst straight up has her realize that it's just not the same. Meanwhile Zack and Aerith have been set-up all over the place, same with Cloud and Tifa. I feel that with this game the developers tried to keep some ambiguity because it's the middle part, and this "the hero wavers" thing has been a big part of the history of FFVII. But they were already hesitant to include an affection system even in this one, and when you look at all the set-up in context it really all goes one way. Cloud and Tifa, and Zack and Aerith. What we got in Rebirth between Cloud and Aerith felt very much like what I've spoken off before, Aerith fulfilling her story arc in regards to her feelings about Cloud. And with her death, the timing, and how it's presented, that conclusion is not "I am dead but I love Cloud now", it was very much a "we had some nice halcyon days, but it's time to end this nice dream, it's not the same, and we have to stop pretending". TlDr; if they were trying to set up anything other than Cloud/Tifa, Aerith/Zack. They did it in probably the worst way possible. This game screams Cloud/Tifa, Aerith/Zack in every scene when analyzed in context.

@mikev8746

2 ай бұрын

@@DutchDread With how Rebirth went and ended I honestly feel bad for these people. I mean that last date in my point of view was bitter sweet and well done. It allows for both characters to find closure. It's the saying goodbye to Aerith and giving things a place. It does this way more than the original obviously and I kind of like it for that. But it's also harder to say goodbye when it's that in your face. But I can't imagine being one of those shipping people that spent the whole game trying to 'enjoy that ship' only to get the door slammed in their face. I feel bad for them. But something tells me they probably see it differently 😂 Meanwhile to people that enjoy the other side/just the actual story it was a lovely game. Sure it ends in a bad place but thats for a good reason. But everything until that point really brought weight to the buildup into part 3. What I'm trying to say I guess is that I just don't understand how this game didn't give these people closure. Also what's wrong with Zack? I fucking love that guy and in the Retrilogy he finally gets to be with her. Takes me back to Crisis Core days..

@ericprocrastinator

2 ай бұрын

@@DutchDread Wow, what an amazing comment haha, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. It really doesn't make sense for them to want to change things after having everything organized so perfectly as you suggested. They mentioned wanting to give a happy ending for all the characters, but it wouldn't be possible if Cloud ended up with Aerith, as it would leave Tifa and Zack heartbroken in the end. However, Cloud with Tifa, and Zack with Aerith manages to give a good closure to everyone.

You should do a new one now that the Remake is out. I'd love to know your thoughts about it! This was a great video. Thank you so much!

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

I probably will, been thinking about writing down an extremely long analysis about the whole love triangle thing, looking at it from several perspectives since I am quite tired of constantly having to say the same things in debates on the matter XD

@noisefever

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread That would be really awesome, especially with the added scenes in the Remake. I personally wouldn't mind if you repeated yourself, and added new information because of this. Nonetheless, looking forward to what you come up with! Consider me a fan!

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@noisefever Well, so far the remake basically just fits with everything said so far. But of course the problem when looking at plot vs Narrative in particular is that it requires a bit of hindsight. We can look at using the hindsight we have from having played the original. And everything makes perfect sense, but there is no guarantee that there won't be some subtle changes coming later, although I doubt they'll change things that much. Just read a very interesting post on the topic of "shot composition" as well, there are so many ways to look at the pairing, especially with Remake that I feel like a complete breakdown would take forever XD Still want one though, will probably have to copy and credit some findings from other people, I am by no means an expert on shot composition for instance.

@noisefever

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Ah yes, shot composition is actually used well in the Remake, IMO. A glaring example is when you speak with Andrea again later and he asks Cloud if he's found that important person/thing he's looking for, and when Cloud responds, Tifa is placed in the shot with him. Even if Tifa isn't necessarily behind you, they make it a point to add her there when the camera shifts to Cloud. It's really interesting. Very subtle, but strong!

Scarlett Johansson X DutchDread hmm...🤔 I ship it!

I watched your vid so many times and I love it. Tbh, I kinda bother about the fact that how the majority of Aerith’s fan still misinterpret her role as a love interest and ignored the entire Tifa’s importance, which very annoyed me. Not just downplayed Aerith but I felt like extremely unfair for Tifa too if the devs really created her just to be a part of LTD nonsense(I don’t really see devs planning this especially they love Tifa) For me, after playing the Remake and OG, I can see how the devs portrayed more clearly about the roles of each girl. Aerith’s role or her arc was strongly revolves around HER as a Cetra, her role of facing Sephiroth(1v1) and her big responsibility for the planet, which concluded herself as one of the lead character of the story(her role connects to the main theme of the story which was stopping meteor and save the planet). Meanwhile, Tifa’s role or her arc was mostly revolves around the relationship of her and Cloud, and her saving Cloud’s character. Some people will say Tifa’s role was downplayed but because Tifa wasn’t a Cetra, she didn’t have the god power or special like Aerith, she was just considered to be a normal person with extra power which she gaining from hard-working, and her MAIN ARC was built about her and Cloud only. From what I have learned, I think the devs are making it clear, if they think Aerith was the real love interest, then why they are creating Tifa for Cloud? And if they really worried about how players will interpret about the relationship between them? They can easily rewrite/portrayed Tifa arc which is all about herself. Somehow I can see they are trying to tell the players that Cloud and Tifa story is extremely important which included to be one of the main plot points of the story, while I don’t see that in Cloud and Aerith(even though their interaction was strong and a lot but didn’t have the full focusing story like “the promise” for example from Cloud and Tifa, and then Lifestream scene)

I'm in love with this video. Thank you for that.

I love this analysis. Pretty much I have said similar things. It was always Tifa the game is supposed to trick you because reality is not what it seems. I will also add that: The LTD is based on the symbolism Gnostic symbolism (Kabbalah) connected to the 2 selves (where our vices create a false self) SOLDIER Cloud and his illusion and True Cloud as the reality. Tifa and Aerith as the Tifareth, the virtues that counterbalance the self's vice. Their bonds with each self bring balance to both sides by so the self can overcome the illusion allowing the self to reach its Final Heaven. (His new life with friends and family at the end of Advent Children) Aerith is part of SOLDIER Cloud's illusion she fullfills what he desires from his relationship with Tifa she represents his ideals and gives him the opportunity to play SOLDIER. She introduces virtues that counteract his SOLDIER sides vice of arrogance and coldness and his his lack of empathy for others. Tifa is Cloud's reality, who he really loves and we are tricked like when Cloud's mother says an older girl would be perfect for Cloud , the reality is he disagreed with her because he already loves Tifa but the game is hiding that from us at that point. She introduces virtues that counterbalance his True Self' vices his insecurity and tendencies to blame himself to the point he's self destructive. It's also used to immerse the player in the illusion in the game itself by making the player THINK they have a choice. As a result the player is also part of the illusion. We control SOLDIER Cloud the way Jenova's cells do, but once True Cloud comes back that's reality and we have no control over him. Remake basically has Aerith shipping Cloud and Tifa so there's no love triangle this time. The devs also in Ultimania confirmed True Cloud comes out around Tifa, and that he puts up a facade around Aerith. True Cloud is confirmed to be in Tifa's resolution while its SOLDIER Cloud in Aerith's resolution. Aerith tells SOLDIER Cloud not to fall in love with her and even if he thinks he has it's not real/in his imagination. This is a reference to the OG Gold Saucer date and the whole resolution references OG. She responds to him with his Highwind scene line when he asks if he gets a say. Because that's his say. She knows he loves Tifa. Aerith also is constantly encouraging Cloud and Tifa to seek eachother out in Remake, she never gets in the way of them showing she's clearly not interested in being part of the love triangle. And SOLDIER Cloud is clearly more interested in Tifa. Also to be clear I'm a CA fan saying this, it's something that can't be denied.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

You've said it really well, I've been reading up on the Gnostic symbolism, but I personally find it hard to use those things to make deductions or predictions based on it. The problem is that most of these concepts are so vague that you can almost always find a way to make it fit. There are the more concrete aspects of course, like the ones you pointed out, the fact that Tifas final limit break is called "final heaven" is definitely not a coincidence, and it makes it extremely clear in my mind what is meant with "the promised" land, not a place, but a balanced mental state where supreme happiness can be found. And yeah, this is something that really stood out to me as well, I expected Soldier Cloud to be portrayed as preferring Aerith, the fact that even Soldier Cloud now is shown to have a preference for Tifa really indicates that the remake is not planing on ending this this ambiguously.

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread I read an essay a really long time ago by Cloti fan Squall_of_SeeD who explained it even better than I can. He went into everything in a way I think makes total sense and shows the devs had to have this in their mind somehow. It's a great read. home.eyesonff.com/showthread.php/64007-Examining-the-Storyline-of-FFVII-Based-on-Its-Symbolism- He doesn't mention Aerith but I'm pretty sure she's part of the Tifareth based on how she corresponds to his fake self and represents a virtue herself and she's a polar opposite of Tifa. Also Tifa is specifically pointed out in one of the guides as her name being similar to Tiffany meaning Hand Of God so the Gnostic symbolism in her name is on purpose. JENOVA being a false god with the name JEHOVA manipulated so a demiurge. Also the AC Playback calls Cloud's Promised Land the place where his family and friends are, meaning his new life which corresponds to enlightenment and happiness and Tifa's bar literally called Seventh Heaven. Also the way they describe the Lifestream in Cosmo Canyon is like the Jewish idea of returning to God when one dies. But what convinced me is that the first draft of FFVII became Xenogears. And there the symbolism is even more in your face. There's even a scene that's basically a "Highwind scene" . Xenogears gives really good insight into the devs original intentions with the symbolism and themes. (Especially Gnosticism and Jungian psychology) I think Remake will definitely touch more on Nomura's ideas for the first draft as they showed Barret dying, and this was their original idea before deciding on Aerith's death. But the biggest indicator is the Teluric tablets you collect for Aerith. A symbol of Thaumaturgy also in the first draft. And this usually goes hand in hand with both Gnostic Mysticism and or Jungian Psychology in Japanese RPGs like Xenogears (Xenosaga, Xenoblade) Shin Megami Tensei/Persona etc but also other SE titles: The World Ends With You is straight up full of Gnostic Mysticism and even references to Christianity when you read CATs notes, other FF games like FFX Yevon is the demiurge, and even KingdomHearts has these concepts where the self is basically out of balance without their heart they even go Jungian in KH2 with the Nobodies. Basically Nomura really loves his Gnostic Mysticism. When you think about it it's a common symbolism in RPGs. It's kinda like how here in the west we are fascinated by Greek mythology and we tend to reference it often in pop culture and superhero lore. Also based on what Aerith said "You can't fall in love with me/even if you think you have it's not real/if you do it's in your imagination this suggests that in OG SOLDIER Cloud did have feelings for her as part of the illusion, which makes sense if you think about his fake self living out Zack's life that also being part of the illusion. But she makes it very clear in both languages "it's not real". Because as you said if we have feelings for someone but they are literally not themselves and we are literally not ourselves no matter how we feel and even if we think we love them we just can't love them for real. We never actually met them. In a way it does sound like she's rejecting SOLDIER Cloud before he could fall for her in Remake. She also made it clear she loves Zack from the beginning instead of saying it's not serious so he's obviously not going to flirt with her this time around as he likely thinks she's not over this SOLDIER guy she keeps bringing up. And you can see he doesn't flirt, he sees her as a friend. While he straight up agrees to go on a date with Tifa. It's a very natural way I think, of ending the LTD. By having the characters do it themselves.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@KageSakura I agree, and I've also read that analysis and other by Squall of seed. Right now I am laboring through another one written by X-soldier. thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/analysis/42083/life-death-the-sefirot-ffviis-history-remakes-future-in-a-new-symbol-of-reunion/ I also think that these concepts are what are most important to understand how the remake will end, including the LTD. But I can't say I fully understand it well enough yet to make concrete predictions based on it, other than that I also think that it will end through the characters own choices. Or in other words, I think the LTD by its nature is a sign of imbalance, and I think some sort of general realization of the true self, of your identity, purpose, place, in the whole will be needed for all characters in order to reach the promised land, a state of balance where supreme happiness can be found. And yeah, I think Aerith realizing her part, and the nature of her affections is a part of that.

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

I think so too. Gnostic symbolism is facinating but it's definitely a lot. I think Nomura just finds it cool so he did a lot of research. Thanks for the link! Also I noticed that basically everything OG Cloud saw in Aerith that made him drawn to her as a possible romantic interest and flirt and possibly think he was in love as Aerith says, was basically him seeking out in Aerith everything True Cloud wanted in Tifa. Aerith gave him the opportunity to play the hero and get the girl to notice, she played up his hero fantasy and his ego. While this was the case in OG I think because of Aerith herself changing her own actions in Remake SOLDIER Cloud is not as interested due to cause and effect. You can clearly see in the Remake certain things annoy him. He doesn't see her as this beautiful damsel to save but this weird girl he needs to figure out. In OG Aerith presents herself more like a damsel in distress I think which let's him live out his fantasy and plays up the hero idealism. While in Remake she's constantly knocking him down a few pegs and not letting him act cocky. Which is good for him but also he doesn't like it, it doesn't play up his hero side. So this time that pretty illusion of being the hero of the damsel from OG isn't there from the beginning. What Aerith actually is to Cloud is made clearer too. He even voices how he views it "I saved her, she saved me round and round it goes." This is a give and take friendship and ties into to the Tifareth aspect out virtues balancing vices. Also notice how she saved him was helping him get to Tifa. She also as I said drew a line in the sand making it very clear that Zack and her were serious so now if Cloud ever thinks he has a chance he has that in the back of his mind, she doesn't flirt like in OG if anything she teases him, and finally she future rejects him. I also noticed Aerith is constantly playing up Cloud saving Tifa (Tifa herself doesn't plays tohis hero side as she's never the damsel) but Aerith herself plays up Tifa as Cloud's important person and one he needs to save she's constantly encouraging him when it comes to her. So now SOLDIER Cloud doesn't need to seek out that feeling in Aerith, he already feels he's a hero to Tifa. Basically both Clouds are into Tifa this time around. And Tifa saves him in the end letting him accept that he wants to be even stronger for her, now ALL of Cloud's romantic focus is on Tifa. This is super interesting and I can't wait to see what they do with it. I have to admit as a CA fan, Remake is really not leaving any room to misinterpret things. Even with the dress scene. That just shows he thinks she is pretty but he doesn't think he should voice that that so he says excuse me, he clearly doesn't think he should pursue her. Aerith rejecting Cloud before he could fall for her is also pretty final. And she doesn't flirt with him at all after this scene. If the character herself isn't going after Cloud and he in turn thinks Tifa is more his stride anyway then there is obviously no ship.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@KageSakura Agreed, in fact, one of the chapters for a piece I am writing (for potentially a video, who knows) is called "fantasy vs reality", and goes into exactly that aspect of it. In general accepting reality in all it's forms is a constant in FFVII, especially concerning Cloud. There is an irony that Cloud thought he needed to be a typical hero in order to get Tifa to notice him, but that instead that persona pushes her away and causes him to live out that fantasy with someone else. What some people think off as Aerith having a positive effect on him I think is likely the exact opposite. Something shown through Clouds eventual breakdown and attack on her. What we saw as an improving Cloud was actually a Cloud fully living the dream, with Aerith playing into his fantasy, until the game gives us a sharp reality check by virtue of a sword through the back. Reality isn't the ancient magical girl that you were going on a magical adventure with. Reality is cruel, and harsh, and painful, but something you need to accept in order to be complete.

Great analysis! Love the plot vs narrative comparison!

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much.

@chibiasta

4 жыл бұрын

DutchDread looking forward on your take on the remake! I’m a die hard CloTi lol, but I can’t help feeling like Tifa didn’t have enough ‘moments’ with Cloud in the remake as supposed to Aerith or even Jessie... is it because it is still part one and it’s beginning of the week when Cloud and Tifa’s relationship development is at its lowest point or disadvantage as you said in the video? I need to replay the game to have a better reading on character interactions though. I was too afraid of dying to pay close attention to the story 😅

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@chibiasta You should I think, because your experience seems to be in the minority. From what I've noticed online, the general consensus seems to be that the remake was very Cloti focused. Hell, I've heard a lot of people speculating that Aerith, knowing the future, isn't even engaging in the love triangle anymore since she seems more focused on getting Cloud and Tifa together. From the big moments to the small they all seem to be pushing the Cloud/Tifa connection, and Zack/Aerith. This goes from Clouds voice actor being told to be gentler when talking to Tifa specifically, to small little easter eggs like the jewelry worn by both girls. Tifa in her mature dress wears the matching mooncrest earing that Marle gives you, which according to the description is "imbued with the fervent desire to be by ones side for eternity". While Aerith is wearing a forget-me-not necklace in remembrance of Zack, which a florist would know are symbolic for: *_ True and undying love_* *_Remembrance during partings or after death_* *_A connection that lasts through time_* *_Fidelity and loyalty in a relationship, despite separation or other challenges_* *_Reminders of your favorite memories or time together with another person_* *_Growing affection between two people_* Honestly, in japanese Clouds favorite word seems to be "Tifa", to the point where he generally addresses the gang as "Tifa and the others". You can also look at the pure shot composition of the respective scenes, which are extremely telling, or else just simply look at how Tifa and Cloud are constantly put together. Tifa follows him onto the pillar (following her heart). She stays back to fight the sahagin with him, when Cloud fights Rufus she is the one that gets a secret glance and that comes back for him. When he wakes up in shinra HQ for some reason they decided to have Tifa be the first face he sees, after which a group shot specifically puts Aerith the furthest away from him. And hell, even when Aerith is in need of rescuing in the same scene they straight up let Tifa do it instead of making it a Cloud/Aerith moment. It's almost weird, like they're actively trying to minimize his interactions with Aerith. Now note, most of these things are narrative, however, that's all we have to go by really atm. Other than the fact that at each point, what we already knew or suspected seems to be made more explicit in the remake. We have sephiroth specifically talking about Cloud failing and wanting to grow stronger. We have Aerith extremely clearly still hung up on Zack. There are constant subtle references to the respective couplings. For instance, when Cloud tries to leave in the middle of the night, Aerith corners him and says "I want to spend more time with you" (in japanese), a direct refernce to her "one wish" with Zack, which was "I want to spend more time with you". Meanwhile, Aerith is straight up telling Cloud that his feelings aren't real, after which she straight up quotes the Highwind scene. I kinda expected Fake Cloud to have a preference for Aerith in the remake, since that's basically always been the narrative at this point of the game, but honestly, at the moment even Soldier Cloud is showing more affection to Tifa than to Aerith.

@chibiasta

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Thank you. What you say and most other fans perspective put me more at ease. I think I had a lot of anxiety playing through the game because I wanted more Cloud and Tifa moments. But as Tifa is an introvert and Cloud and his 16 year old mentality trying so hard to be cool, the interaction between them are more matter of fact with a more serious tone. I really liked at the beginning where he raises the cosmo canyon drink and says 'beautiful' but directing it at Tifa, and Tifa gets embarrassed and leaves to go to Avalanche base. I was looking for more like this where Cloud initiates the moment with Tifa. Maybe because they're both the serious type, lighthearted exchange is hard to come by. I'm happy to learn that in the JP version Cloud address Tifa with higher emphasis compared to the rest of the gang. Not really happy that is lost in translation with English localization... I like the fact the remake changed how Cloud remembered the promise, this time on his own, instead of Tifa reminding him. But I couldn't shake the feeling that the interaction with Aerith is almost always very pleasant and he seems to think about Aerith here and there even after just meeting her once. Granted it is Zack-Cloud here, and he has forgotten his feelings for Tifa at this point, but I really did not appreciate how he seems to be somewhat naturally drawn to Aerith LOL... I know the plot is pushing him towards Tifa, even Aerith pushes him towards Tifa, but the interaction between Cloud and Aerith is too pleasant to ignore. Although in my case it gave me a lot of anxiety... I felt like the whole world wants him to be with Tifa, all of the subtle hints and accessory choices, side character comments, etc., but his heart chases after Aerith LOL... Maybe I just want to see Cloud and Tifa so much, any pleasant Cloud and Aerith exchange made me worry...? Maybe I'm just crazy... I didn't like how Cloud does not insist on going after Tifa after seeing her in the chocobo carriage going to Don Corneo, and he says something like she's a big girl, she can take care of herself. And it is Aerith that insists to go help Tifa... I couldn't figure out what Cloud is thinking here... Is it because he is confident in Tifa's ability to take care of herself or he just has absolute trust in what Tifa tells him? I mean if I were him, I'd no doubt go after her in a heartbeat no matter what she tells me. Also, maybe the developer wants Aerith to be the one to insist on helping Tifa to show the beginning of a great friendship between the girls? I just really didn't like that part. It didn't seem natural to me. Granted, Cloud doesn't insist on going to Shinra HQ to rescue Aerith right away either in the remake LOL... (This part I felt is bad pacing and trying to fit in more side quests to lengthen the game... or maybe I'm just too used to the urgency in the OG, that I'm a bit bothered in comparison...) I know Aerith has ulterior motives to stick with Cloud when Cloud came crashing down the same way Zack did in the OG. Even a second layer of ulterior motive in the remake. And much of what she says mimics Zack as we have learnt from Crisis Core. No doubt from Aerith's perspective, her focus is Zack. (Side note, I love how if she is ko'd in battle she says something like, 'that voice, I know you' obviously hearing Zack...) But my worry was more what things are like from Cloud's perspective. I kind of chalked it up to Cloud not being himself, he is currently Zack-Cloud... That is why I'm so looking forward to Mideel lifestream arch where Tifa helps him to find his true self. I'm really looking forward to see how the remake is going to show his true emotions after regaining himself. (I made a fanart just the other day if you're interested in seeing lol: twitter.com/chibiasta/status/1280761508092207106?s=20 ) I think I also had anxiety because the FFVII facebook group I was in kept on saying, oh the remake changes things, Aerith might not die this time, and a lot of Clerith were saying this and that while I was still playing through the game. I don't think Cloud would end up with Aerith even if she lives, because 1) Cloud's true self loves Tifa; 2) Cloud's personality; 3) bro code LOL... but I was still anxious, almost embarrassing to say lol. I guess my saving grace is that Zack might be alive in some form or another. (Cloud x Tifa, Zack x Aerith, i'd love to see a happy ending where everyone lives happily ever after LOL) Again, combined with the threat of dying in every stupid mini boss I was too anxious to pay more attention to story and character interactions. I will play the game again this time on classic to focus on story. I'm hoping to experience what most people experience lol. Sorry for the 'essay' lol. I really love your video!

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

​@@chibiasta Haha, I think you're probably the type of person who naturally second guesses themselves. You're likely a bit too worried about seeing Clerith content, and because of that you're hyper aware of it. You always have to keep in mind that Clouds attraction to Tifa will always manifest itself in different ways than the one in Aerith. She's someone he's known and has had hidden feelings for all his life, Aerith is someone he just met. The strength of attraction isn't measured in explosive romantic reactions. Especially in stories like FFVII where the bond between Tifa and Cloud is supposed to shine through more on a second playthough. When Tifa is taken by Corneos goons he WANTS to save her, he pouts when she doesn't allow it, but he also respect her and trusts her. So he reluctantly acquiesces. Cloud and Tifas behavior towards each other often almost feels like they're already a pair. One of my favorite little examples of this is when Tifa admonishes Cloud on the stairs in shinra HQ, and he replies with " But Tifa, I wasn't" and he sounds so childish its adorable. But mostly, there is a constant longing that you can see in Cloud with Tifa, whether it's by the way he says her name when she leaves his room, the pained expressions he has when he wants to comfort her on the tower but can't, his entire "comfort Tifa" story arc in general. Same thing with the way Tifa looks at him, it's just filled with longing and sexual tension, where Aerith mostly seems like superficial flirting, and ends basically the moment Tifa comes back into play. It is true that Cloud seems more cheerful in the Aerith part than before, but remember, that was true in the OG as well, but unlike the OG, the remake shows Cloud loosening up long before he meets Aerith, now he's already smiling with Jessie and the gang. And in fact, the vast majority of his interractions with Aerith he's either annoyed or dismissive. Even when we look at small things like the final battle, the only person he protects there is Tifa (he's constantly protecting her this game). When you get her as the first ally he responds more favorable than to Aerith, and when Barret is your second teammate he will respond with a line that paint Cloud and Tifa as a pair (ain't you two having fun), while his response with Aerith is neutral (better late than never). Most of these things are utterly meaningless by themselves, but they're constant to the point where I really found it odd at times. For the vast majority of the game after chapter 9, all Clouds interactions with Aerith seem to be business only. And don't worry, Aerith will still die in the remake, I basically guarantee it, for a bunch of reasons, both from a narrative standpoint as well as an ingame logic standpoint, Aerith has to die. While it may have felt sudden to us back in 1997, the story doesn't work without it. In order to change that they wouldn't just need to change the things going forward, but would have to change the entire backstory. Everything about Nibleheim and Clouds past is contingent on the love he shares with Tifa. His psyche breaking is contingent on the death of Aerith. Aeriths and Tifas roles can't be reversed because Aerith, as an ancient, has meaning in death, there is a role she still has to fulfill. There is a reason the ancients talk about returning to their planet, thematically, it's what she always had to do, and will always have to do. Even if the permanence of death wasn't a major theme in FFVII, then still this could not be reversed. Conversely, Tifas role exists only in life, IF Aerith could somehow take on the role Tifa has within the story, then that still wouldn't change the fact that Tifa fundamentally can't fulfill Aeriths role. Which means that these roles will never be changed by the developers. (especially not since basically everyone in the development team seems to love Tifa, from Nojima, whose often accused of being biassed, to the voice actors). The most likely change is not that Aerith will survive, I stake my soul on it, it's far more likely that they will dangle that carrot infront of our eyes to make it extra painful when despite it not being destiny, she still dies, again. I think the most likely thing to happen is that we discover that when we have the choice to change things, that the characters realize they would have done the same thing, I think Aerith will choose to die, I think Cloud will choose to let it happen, and in doing so, I think this version of FFVII will end rather similarly, but without the guilt that had been keeping Cloud down in the original.

Well, it seems like they're trying to "kill" the love triangle to some degree in Remake, if not entirely, so I think your assessment of FF7 OG remains safe. :)

@nairilee

2 жыл бұрын

A really good video, btw! Forgot to mention that part oops.

I love this video so much, for many days I also realized this that the love triangle can be ignore in the story. Because of this I will subscribe to you. My time watching and listening to this video is worth it.

100%. *claps*

I always think cloud is actually just a sephiroth clone like marco before tifa found him in sector 7 his memory is damaged, after becoming an object of the experiment of hojo and zack's death cloud persona and memory are divided into 3: nibelheim cloud, zack cloud, sephiroth cloud cloud Nibelheim : cloud memory is still hidden, sometimes it appears when he meets with people he knows, it is said that he remembers his childhood promise with tifa. Sephiroth cloud: this is a depiction of the cloud wants to be like a sephiroth (perfect soldier) so when this persona comes out he gets very cold, in ff7 the remake is told he doesn't hesitate to kill johnny Zack cloud: persona cloud that makes him behave like zack, has a memory of zack about events in nibelheim, has zack skill, even though the cloud never even practiced, but he can be very strong, has Zack strong mentality All because of the influence of cell jenova, jenova can copy the memories and feelings of others into the cloud mind These three personas joined to form a new persona, called fake cloud When one persona is more dominant, he will appear to build cloud character So sometimes,when cloud nibelheim comes out, he can be very close to Tifa, when zack persona more dominant, he can be very close with aerith actually cloud = fei fong wong (xenogears) the different is fei fong wong broke his personality into 4 persona because of his father and fei own desires (id, coward, the artificial persona fei, unnamed persona fei) while the cloud break his personality because there are elements of jenova cells Sorry for my bad english

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's hard to get an exact description of what fake Cloud is, mainly because it's simply not an exact science. I break it down into 4 parts: 1: The real Cloud, the actual memories and character traits that he had before Nibeleheim. 2: A fake persona created on Clouds ideal of what he should be, this incorporates parts of Zack, and maybe even Sephiroth, but is also built from his own ideas and ideals, the perfect Soldier who would be able to get Tifas attention, a strong, stoic hero who never fails, and can do anything by himself. 3: Memories copied from those around him through Jenova cells, this mainly comes from Tifa, but I fully believe that atleast partially he also copied Zack, and is also copying Aeriths memories of Zack. This part in general is the part that is trying to adjust to whatever people expect of him. 4: The will of Jenova/Sephiroth. Since the lifestream is made from memories, consciousness, soul essence in general, that's probably what made his mind so malleable how could it not. People say that Cloud becomes himself around Aerith, but I don't see it, around Aerith Cloud was able to indulge in his fantasy, to act like a soldier first class. In general, and I should make a video on this, Aerith represents fantasy, while Tifa represents harsh reality, she's symbolic of his past and who he really is, and when he's with Aerith, he's running away from that, but he shouldn't, reality catches up, in the form of a sword to the back.

@taufikchandra6826

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread I think that the cloud also has some Tifa memories is true because when the cloud experiences ptsd and sees tifa trying to kill sephiroth actually it is from tifa memory, Zack and Cloud haven't met Tifa when Tifa and Sephiroth got into a fight Zack discovered Tifa just after she was injured because she was slashing by a sephiroth Zack tries to help Tifa, but Tifa refuses because she already hates the soldier and Shinra zack got into a fight with sephiroth, in OG ff7 it was said that the battle was very short, in the ff7 crisis core the battle was more intense, but in my opinion the story in the crisis core made more sense, because zack is strong soldier after zack loses, then cloud appears this was shown many times by SE in OGff7, FF7CC, FF7 the last order but a lot of people don't believe me, I don't know how they understand the story plot of FF7

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

Cloud is NOT a Sepiroth clone, Sepiroth told him a half truth. He's just a just regular guy with Scells in him. He was going to be turned into a clone by Hojo but the experiment failed what he kept were the super human abilities. He has pure S cells so Jenova is able to manipulate him enough to pull him towards her body (Reunion theory) but his mind collapsed before he could become a clone. Jenova's cells allowed him to use Tifa's memories, and his own memories of Zack to create a composite fake personality which protects his mind from collapsing completely so he stays intact long enough for him to join the Reunion. But Cloud's will is stronger than Jenova's influence and this is due to Tifa. Her belief in him is what makes him retain his sense of self. Which is why her doubt is what causes him to break completely. If Cloud hadn't been found by her Jenova would have taken over and broken his mind completely.

@KageSakura

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread True Cloud is locked away in Cloud's subconscious his fake persona lies on top. Aerith does draw out real Cloud in OG. His rooftop laugh is the same as with Zack in Crisis Core. That's him. But the thing with Aerith is she can only bring out true Cloud to the surface briefly enough to catch a glimpse of him not actually unlock him the way Tifa does. She sees he is in there, but that's it. In Remake the devs make it clear True Cloud is brought out through his interactions with Tifa. Sakurai speaks differently to Tifa. Aerith's resolution is her talking to SOLDIER Cloud and Tifa's resolution is True Cloud hugging Tifa.

@taufikchandra6826

4 жыл бұрын

@@KageSakura all humans injected with Jenova cells (S cells) are sephiroth clones, People who don't have strong desires will become perfect sephiroth clone (marco), People who have a strong desire will become a failure clone (zack). if zack never helps cloud to out of the mako tube, cloud will become a perfect sephiroth clone . and about zack memories, it's not just cloud that creates his own memories of zack, but jenova absorbs zack and tifa memories and is put into the cloud mind to create fake memories The combinations of cloud, zack and tifa memories created fake persona Almost all important events in Nibelheim incidents originated from Zack POV and Tifa POV example: 1. when zack enters the nibel reactor with sephiroth, cloud never follows zack, cloud waiting with tifa outside the nibel reactor, but cloud has a memory of the events inside the nibel reactor 2. When Zack enters the Shinra Mansion library, Cloud never follows Zack to meet with Sephiroth inside shinra library, but cloud can see all events between zack and sephiroth inside Shinra Mansion library 3. When Tifa took Masamune sword and tried to kill Sephiroth, Cloud was not at the location when the incident occurred, but cloud can see all the events clearly in his memory.

Great video have you done a video for the remake since it out to compare this video versus that one yet. I love reading your stuff on Tumblr to

oooh i love them..

Great video. I think FF7R gave a glimpse of what would it be if Aerith lives, will be just pure friendship with Tifa. They skyrocketed the relationship of these two, from the very moment the 3 of them are together in the party is just the two of them supporting each other, helping each other, smiling and looking each other, high fives and so on. When we get to play as Tifa in the shinra HQ with Aerith as our only companion, the first words of Tifa are of concern of Cloud, while Aerith try to ease her worried mind and ask if Tifa is ok. Remake made obvious that Aerith cares a lot about Tifa. The thing is that they have put Aerith in a mayor double dilema:"I'm feeling attracted by a man who reminds me of my dead ex bf(being this the initial reason of) but my new friend Tifa is in love with him(I don't think is too crazy to think that she knows whats going on in the hearts of Cloud and Tifa)" If Aerith don't die(and if she is the actual the main love interest) SE have: a guy who recovers his true self and his feelings for her childhood friend while there is feelings for another woman when he wanst 100% himself + a woman who has to overcome the death of her bf and solve this while is in love with the love interest of her dear friend. Redirect the happiness of Tifa in a way that makes us sense that all that thing of the promise (which they took the big job to recreated the most beautiful and romantic way in remake and also the job of bring a novel where adding specific details of that night)means nothing. Is just too much to solve and rearrange. SE is moving on from this triangle thing and I think setting up that her death will not only be a thing that will hurt deeply to Cloud but to Tifa too and it makes sense with "On the way to a smile-Case of Tifa" and AC

Make a remake version pls

I really want to respond this thoroughly, one by one, multiple responds commenting each section but I have to watch it completely firsthand lol. But one thing I need to say first is : I just wish all my teachers explaining things as interesting as you lmao.

I found this analysis someone made of the whole love triangle, and I think shines a positive light on all relationships. Touches a lot of the points you made here. What do you think? outbythehighwind.tumblr.com/post/640347336477966336/the-misconceptions-of-ff7-a-cloud-aerith-tifa Especially this part (i think its on part 4) "Cloud's feelings for Aerith are of a powerful friendship in the sense of plot (and, if the player so interprets by their experience of the narrative, romantic). This friendship is by no means a ‘lesser’ love than Eros (romantic love) - friendship, in its true sense, being one of the highest forms of love also. In addition to being the one for whom Cloud holds Eros (per the plot) after all, Tifa is also Cloud’s best friend. Cloud’s Eros love, in the plot sense of FF7, is Tifa. Established in both narrative and plot."

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

I'll read it when I have some time, for now I can quickly say that if we look at FFVII gnostic symbolism, especially as it pertains to the Sephiroth, Tifaret, etc, that Aerith is most likely representative of "Chesed", which represents kindness, and love between people, so Aerith as a general symbol of compassion and love is definitely an intended aspect of the game.

Your video still holds up true for remake

Your video really summed things up nicely. I sometimes find it really hard to believe how some people can deny such concrete evidence haha. I hope you'll make a updated video for the remake. That being said, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the theory that Tifa would die in the remake. I've seen a lot of people claim SE will pull a "Here's Aerith, now we'll take Tifa," and with the whole remake and not a remaster argument, alongside that ending reallly got me thinking 🤔. I personally can't see this happening as it will add nothing to the story (it would actually be detrimental). It would leave the plot in shambles really. Really appreciated the video though. It was 54 minutes well spent Edit: Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors it's 3 am here and I'm typing on my phone lol. The thought just sprung into my head and kept me up

@eyechan29

4 жыл бұрын

ColonelBoyardee I think it won’t happened. If Tifa dies, no one can restore Cloud. Even if Aerith live, the only one who can restore Cloud in lifestream is Tifa cause they share same past. Aerith can’t do that, so Cloud will still be in coma. I know some Clerith hoping if Aerith live, Cloud will be with Aerith. They think Cloud is with Tifa because Aerith died. Nah, Aerith can’t restore Cloud, and Cloud was restored because he heard Tifa’s voice. The reason Cloud can hear Tifa is because she’s the closest person in his heart. Ever heard a person come back from coma because he heard ordinary friend calling him out?

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Tifa isn't dying, for a bunch of reasons. In a good story, characters aren't just interchangeable, what happens to them isn't interchangeable. Aeriths death may have seemed sudden at the time, but when you analyse the story being told as a whole, it was always inevitable. There are both thematic and plot reasons for Aeriths death. The ancients talking about "returning to the planet", the ancients dying out in general, with Aerith being the last one, the promised land. All these things tie in to her dying and returning to the planet, that's the point of her being a cetra within the plot. To become one with the lifestream and the planet, and save us by doing so. Likewise, Tifa, her history with Cloud, the promise, all of these things are established for reasons, reasons which require payoffs. Even if the future is uncertain the past isn't, and those pasts are written for a reason, and not every possible continuation follows naturally from them. Aerith and Tifa both have very definitive roles within the story, and everything about their characters has been designed to facilitate those roles. There is a reason why the one person who dies, is the one person who, in death, is able to exert her will. Aerith has a purpose in death, as a cetra, she can do things, she still has an active and relevant role within the events of the game. If you were to allow her to live, and give her Tifas role of the internal heroine, then that would leave Tifas character without a purpose, which every designer worth his salt knows you don't do, you can't elevate Aeriths character like that without minimizing Tifas. Aerith was not there in Nibleheim, and because of that, Aerith doesn't have a place in those events now. She can't save Clouds soul because even if she technically could do that using in universe logic, she still has no relevance there from a storytelling perspective. "I did it all for Tifa" doesn't work with Aerith by his side. Aerith can't tell him what's wrong about his memories, Aeriths duties makes it so that she can't stay with Cloud in the hospital, and IF Cloud were to regain those memories after Tifa dies then his failure to live up to his promise and protect her would only break his mind even further, it simply does not work. And even IF Aerith could fill the role of the internal heroine by twisting the plot beyond recognition, Tifa fundamentally can't fill the role of Aerith. Tifa has no purpose in death, no role to fulfill, no task to complete. It would by necessity have to end with Aerith BOTH fighting Sephiroth/meteor as an ancient, AND fulfilling Tifas role to save and comfort Clouds soul after Tifas death, as a lover. That would never happen, because that only happens in poorly written fan-fictions where the writer introduces a mary-sue who is the only important person in the universe, and who can do, and does do, everything. I guarantee you, Tifa isn't dying, and Aerith still is. Even if everything else changes, that won't.

@colonelboyardee4008

4 жыл бұрын

@@eyechan29 Well put! Yeah and I have seen some Clerith shippers constantly mention that cinematic scene in the Shinra Building where Tifa and Barret get stabbed by Sephi is definitive foreshadowing. If I had a penny each time I saw this being brought up in an argument, let's just say I'd have a crap ton of pennies. I really like your coma question by the way.

@colonelboyardee4008

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Really good points. I 100 percent agree that Tifa will not die. Not only did Aerith's death serve a purpose, it also added a lot of meaning to game as as whole. Killing TIfa? What the actual fook would that accomplish? I have given similar explanations to yours across several theory videos and reddit discussions but some folks (I'm sure you know who they are - been called a butthurt Tifa fan lol) vehemently insist that Aerith doesn't have to die, and that there is no reason to be sure that Tifa is safe. They claim that the Sephiroth in the remake is from the OG game, and he knows that Tifa plays a crucial role in Cloud ultimately regaining his memories/identity and defeating him. He also knows that him killing Aerith would harm his plans, so his target would definitely be Tifa. What do you think?

@eyechan29

4 жыл бұрын

ColonelBoyardee I lost count how many times they claim Tifa is only friend to Cloud. That question prove otherwise. I think in remake, the story will not go far off. Sephiroth may not try to kill Aerith anymore knowing the outcome, but Aerith also knows about OG ending. I heard theory that maybe even Cloud will kill Aerith this time, or yeah, maybe Sephiroth will try to kill Tifa so Cloud can’t be restored, but maybe when he try to kill Tifa, Aerith gets in the way and end up she’s the one who die like in OG, I don’t know. The role of each character doesn’t change, while SE may lead us into thinking the story is changing, it may have same end result, we’ll see about that.

At the end you give clerith shippers far too much credit with their quote mining. It's not that there are contradictory statements. It's just them taking partial statements and removing context from others. Hell I have seen entire essays on "clerith in the ultimania" and it inevitably ends up filled 75% with things not in the ultimania. There is no there there when it comes to clerith and official statements.

@blackblood13ful

3 жыл бұрын

It could be that you’ve come across too many extremist shippers. Sorry man. But hey, there are plenty levelheaded cleriths online that mostly just like the pair for it’s aesthetics. It’s shame though, because I know exactly what you’re talking about.

@DutchDread such a good material, this. Im also a die hard CANON pairing fan, and I'd like to ask you guys and specifically you, what do you think about one of the last FF VII scenes where Cloud saves Tifa from the falling rocks, and then as she's happily clinging to him, he mentions that he knows wheere to find "her" meaning aerith. Whaddya guys think about that? because this one is really making me doubt whether his mind is clear about Tifa or not.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

I honestly don't really see why people read so much into that line, I personally never did, Aerith was an important person who died and Cloud blames himself, of course he'd want to see her one last time if he thought that's a possibility. That doesn't require romance, which is confirmed when Tifa responds with "yeah, let's go meet her". This is basically the plot thread that gets resolved in Advent Children, where Cloud meets Aerith again in order to be forgiven. But if you want confirmation, you can find it in "case of Tifa", where we get the following dialogue taking place right after between him and Tifa: *_However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?” _* *_“Cloud, you’re smiling.” _* *_“I am?” _* *_“Yeah.” _* *_“It all starts now. A new…” _* *_Cloud looked for the right words. _* *_“A new life.” _* *_“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.” _* *_“That’s right…”_* *_“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.” _* *_“Why?” _* *_“Because I’ve always failed everything.” _* *_“That’s not funny.” _* *_“After this … I think I’ll be okay.” _* *_Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. _* *_“Because I have you this time.”_* *_“You’ve always had me.” _* *_“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile._*

@random_guitar_dude3817

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread m8. That's the answer i needed. Hundreds of hundreds of thank you's for that. I wuz too young to understand what those two were really all about, but now, thanks to internet and ppl like yourself, its all made clear.

@violetcrimes

3 жыл бұрын

the line was also translated very poorly. the correct translation was supposed to say something like "we haven't seen the other side of that mountain" and then tifa responds "yeah let's go home". receipts: 64.media.tumblr.com/d463c540e5580ff91749818a9d605beb/9801673fb2b76b52-f5/s1280x1920/c78a8e278bcbae444bd3625e5c2e7bb791626b93.jpg

@4kkichan

3 жыл бұрын

If you play OG with new fan translation "beacause" that phrase has been changed to "I think WE can meet her there". But since the scene doesn't mention a subject, I think it can be best translated by "I think meeting is possible there". Final Fantasy Complete Works vol. 2 also said: "Soon the lifestream surrounded Cloud and when he regained consciousness, he heard Tifa’s voice calling him. Within the green stream, he felt like he saw the promised land and the answer from the planet. Then Cloud promised Tifa they will go and meet those loved ones someday." Source: twitter.com/kirikirari_/status/1300402851076661248/photo/1 And in Ultimania Tifa was described to have "gentle/kind" (優しい)smile And that was her answer to Cloud that they will stay together and return to the planet together, so they can meet their loved ones in the afterlife Source: twitter.com/HayashiNagisa/status/1299766432905834503/photo/1

@jenniferchough

2 жыл бұрын

@@random_guitar_dude3817 the short answer is that the translation was inaccurate (lots of the OG translations were terrible). The Ultimania for that specific scene says the two (Cloud and Tifa) agree that they can go meet the loved ones they’ve lost there (in The Promised Land). So this is referring to all their loved ones who died. If you’d like a screenshot of that page from the Ultimania, let me know.

I actually agree what you said in the video and I also liked the video😉👍

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there before the remake would change things but boy....was I underestimating how far they'd actually go.

@neelmaniyadav7216

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread well did you recognised me, I came here from the comments section of a video

@neelmaniyadav7216

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread and btw, have you completed the ff7 remake ?

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

@@neelmaniyadav7216 I did recognize you, also because you mentioned it on the other comment section ;)

@neelmaniyadav7216

4 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Man I really don't have any one around me with whom I can talk to about Final Fantasy or any game in general, would you mind giving me your any social media address in which you are most active, at least I will have someone to talk with

Thank you for explaining what story , plot and narrative is. For someone who is going to have A levels with a language profile it could be useful. And in general: Great job you did there😄

Come Back!

There is no love triangle in Ba Sing Se

@MarraLo0390

4 жыл бұрын

Bwahahahahaha

Great video! Your explanation was really concise and easy to follow. While there's no argument CT is endgame, I'm actually curious as to how SE will develop Cloud and Aerith's relationship in the future parts. Looking back at their interactions in Part 1, I honestly find it hard to see her being posed as a love interest like in OG. Aerith's resolution scene pretty much kills the LTD, but I have an irrational worry that the resolutions might not even be significantly referenced in Part 2. I'd be pissed if SE goes "sike!" and make Aerith (or Cloud) have feelings for the other anyway, despite knowing that said feelings aren't real. But then again, with Zack seemingly back in the picture, and buildup of friendship between Aerith and Tifa, I should probably have more faith in SE that they wouldn't go that route lol

@SA-hr6ho

3 жыл бұрын

@@4kkichan huh?? I've read all the Ultimanias, CT has been canon since 97. how on earth did you come to the conclusion that i think otherwise lmfao

@4kkichan

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, sorry, I read that wrong!

Curious listening to all of this what your opinion is about this dynamic in the Retrilogy atm given how the books/games have fleshed it out even more and added layers of detail to make the characters even more believable. Its my own belief that while what you summarized in the video to already be conclusive as presented in OG. That at its core OG fails to develop characters realistically enough to make the character story have no rough edges to it. It makes sense of the medium that was PSX polygon gaming at the time though. But allot of whats stated in the video can now be analyzed to an even greater extent to the points you made. Which might sound indulgent on my part and others. But I guess its just fun hearing the developed opinion of someone that was already thoroughly considered in a hour long video regarding the original

Oh yeah, so I finally watched it all. It's been more than 2 hours since I also checking the comments and pausing for certain part. It's really an amazing video. Funnily enough, I actually didn't planned to come here or watching the discussion about this "love triangle" at all. (Although, I admit using it as keyword for searching. I'll get to that part later.) I was actually watching interviews with the remake creators. In episode 2 when Nojima talks about each character then jump to Tifa, he talks about nibelhiem and her eventual reunion at the station. Previously, it never bothers me, but then I realize "holy shit, I just remember her past is, if not more, as much tragic as the others [ including Aerith ]. So why she never appeal to me before?" Because seriously, in the past I have little interest in Tifa. But now, I just realized how fascinating her setup was. A girl who probably a lone/few survival of the destruction of her God damn hometown. Then she meets another survivor, who (magically) is also the boy she kept thinking for 7 years, which is hilarious, but putting in perspective, is endearing and really really heartwarming. I can't Imagine if my entire school friends and my neighbors were slaughtered when I was a kid, then this special friend is somehow alive. Just, frickin, Idk my English so bad I can't express it with words. Hopefully you got my point lmao. So anyway, what I do afterwards, is doing what's due for so long, deeply understanding her character as I did with the others. The easiest way is, finding the purpose of the characters. Which is the heroine of internal conflict i.e. love interest as you said. So, i check yours. My initial thought is, if this person only talk about senseless debate, I'll immediately click out. But since you take the matter seriously, I ended up watching it till the end. A honest feedback : very clear and not disappointing, even though lackluster in visual. But that's forgivable because it's not necessary with your complex explanation. I never hate Cloud and Tifa together, though. Ever since the memory cleansing cutscene, the highwind cutscene, and then elaborated with Advent Children, I can't think there's a way for Clerith to be the one and only true pairing. Although I'm not discouraged, since I grew up in a culture where polygamous practice are tolerable, and happen everywhere. (Just in case, I'm not supporting it in a Harem way. I still think it should mutual and accepted by each party). So, I kind of accept that Cloti was canon, because for me it was no big deal. The story makes sense and have a fair points. However I do sometimes, wondering and wishing Cloud was more on aerith side...., Or cloud and aerith is the endgame pairing. Just like Kagure Sakura. I still prefer Cloud and Aerith interaction and want to see if their mutual love could grow somehow in the remake. At the same time, I acknowledge that actually, Tifa was the one in favor, with such tremendous fanservice for Cloti. Even jessie who's very aggressive can't compete. I find Cloud and Aerith sweet in the remake but the confirmation of love, are, nearly non-existent? I guess. Even if there's one that super sweet can get easily debunked. Others that I wanted to point out that, on a surface level, Aerith kinda presented with the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" trope which is basically the 1 dimensional girl who helps the male protagonist to be their best self with the girl quirkiness. WHICH FORTUNATELY, realizing it today, I'm glad she's not. She's more complex than a damsel in a distress. And her death also have more meaning than just playing with the player emotions. I'm still sad some people only remember her as "the character who dies", as "the spoilers alert" for every lore relating topic, or "that character who waste my grinding time". Oh man, so painful hearing that. Oh, also I didn't like zack because he's meddling with "my" trio. HAHAHA. (Plus I neither attached nor attracted to his characterization in the slightest. I have a hard time relating to him).

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

Well, I personally love Zack, and actually prefer Zack and Aerith over even Cloud and Tifa, but shipping is a personal thing, so you're welcome to enjoy whatever pairing you enjoy. For me personally though, one of the most interesting lenses through which to watch FFVII is fantasy vs reality. In general stories all have a certain "tapestry" as I call if, of themes and events, and in a good story they tend to go together, creating one cohesive whole. We naturally understand this, which is why the same sort of romantic happy ever after that we expect in disney movies wouldn't really fit in for instance Game of Thrones. For me, the same thing sort of applies to the Aerith/Cloud romance, I think it works because it is fake. In a world like FFVII, with nuance, grey areas, and consequences. Something fantastical like the "manic pixy girl" would be extremely out of place. On the one hand that's naturally why it appeals to people, because who wouldn't like a bit of sunshine in a story about rain. But ultimately it wouldn't fit the story, which is why I personally could never ship it, because it's too convenient. Here we have this story about a man living out a fantasy. Inspired by the "sefirot" from the Kabbalah, which focuses on finding enlightenment/true happiness/the promised land, by discarding the fake self. To me, to then hope that this man continuous to live in this dream fundamentally undermines the premise of the world and the themes. We have mankind looking for an easy solution through mako, we have Cloud running away from reality through his alter ego. We have Tifa and Barret, having to come to terms with the past and what they've done. All of it hinges on the acceptance that reality is not perfect, but that accepting that is the first step. So it is fitting that Aerith turned out to be more than just a "manic pixy dream girl", but her connection to Cloud is still through the illusion, that's what she represents, while Tifa is reality. Aerith is mesmerized by his eyes, which reminds her of Zack, while Tifa doesn't like them, because her connection is with the real Cloud. Throughout the game, Cloud pushes away reality, and embraces the fantasy, until Aerith dies and his fantasy is rudely shattered. He's not the lone fantasy hero, and pretending that we was, didn't change that fact. Because of all that, I can't ship Aerith and Cloud. From both sides, I think the Zack connection is simply more bittersweet, and therefore, more in tune with the overall themes. Tifa is indeed often overlooked in my opinion, because she is fascinating as a character. Like you said, everyone she knows and loved got slaughtered in Nibleheim. By members of Soldier, the people she'd been so eager to meet because her "hero" might be one of them. But instead everyone got killed, including nearly her, and her hero never arrived. So here we have this girl, alone, the only survivor, nothing left of her childhood, disillusioned she decided to become a badass and traines to be an amazing martial artist. She starts looking for a cause, driven by revenge she arrives with avalanche, who say "they're fighting for the planet". What a coincidence, she can "fight for good" while fighting the people she hates. It's almost as if she's simply looking for justification to take revenge.... But she knows in her heart that what they're doing is wrong, and she ends up with the blood of thousands on her hands. She's alone, she's despairing, and who does she run into?.....The boy who promised he'd be there for her, a last link to her childhood, another survivor, SALVATION! It's often easy to forget that for Tifa, finding Cloud must have been like a liferaft. A way to connect with her humanity again. So imagine how it must have felt for her when he started acting weird. Instead of having someone to share with she now had another thing weighing on her. Perhaps Cloud wasn't real, perhaps she was misremembering, perhaps she's alone after all, etc etc etc. Here was this one last link to her childhood, to her innocence, and she's losing it. And worst of all, she can't even talk to him about it, it becomes yet another burden. As a concept, Tifa's story has always just fascinated me, she's such a complex character with so many layers beyond the obvious dualities of being both kind and shy, and a scantilly clad badass. She goes through so much internally during FFVII that we the player don't even really recognize. And then with CC, that's the kind of happy ending FFVII deserves, a hard fought one, which is why I love it.

@incogniftoar3943

3 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread I can't believe you can write twice as longer as my comment lmao. And yes, indeed I agree with your takes about Tifa. I hope that is what the creator aiming for her in the Remake. It is easy for a character to fall as "candy for the eyes", making their concept and characterization buried under their awestruck design. Nevertheless I eager to see her character gets justice in the next part. About Zack, it's rooted on my real life experience, I guess. I don't hate him in a sense of hating disgusting stuff, no. I think he's a really well written character. Ever since I was a kid, he's the type of person I want to be. A person who is true to his moral code, till the end of his life. Yet, looking back to it, I never was. Maybe that's why I relate more to Cloud. I probably can write day and night why he feels more relatable for me, but I think that's story for another time. The thing is, I feel like I can learn a thing or two from Cloud's Journey, in order to become much better person. In short, Zack is the figure that I'm hoping to be one day, while Cloud is like an old pal that i can share story with.

@mayamiko684

Жыл бұрын

The fact that you don't like zack is already invalidating the morality of your ship lol. Unless you're just having fun then wtvr. But... What would it feel if the guy you died for who was a great friend to you, NTR'd the gf you were supposed to meet if it weren't for you choosing to save said friend. Also that would be disappointing about aerith. She was able to rebound a 5 yr old wait with a less than a week dude with messed up mind? Feels like shit man. Now, what would it feel to have real cloud have no control, no idea, that his fake self is already NTR-ing his own deep feelings for tifa. The person who is the literal reason for this whole story. The reason why he was even in a soldier state. And the reason why he was able to return. That would sure as hell suck. Now, about tifa, a girl who genuinely loved cloud that despite not being very close, was the only one to notice how different he is and was always patient with him. Took care of him in his vegetable state. Accepted and waited for him in AC despite the hiccups. Etc. Would feel that a girl who was barely there, was able to ntr the guy she always wanted to see again. Same guy from same hometown that got massacred. The same guy who she always looked for in the newspaper because she had no other way of knowing how he was (if anything, she didn't need him to be a soldier, she only said that promise so that he would return to her). You know, i never really felt like soldier cloud /real cloud would work with aerith. I dunno, i feel like she's always destined for someone more whole like zack. Did you play crisis core? Because I cried for him and didn't really cry for her.... Maybe because I really liked zack (he is the real "hero" here) but hey remake aerith is more likable.

name of the music in the background?

@janas.7766

4 жыл бұрын

Advent Children - Cloud smiles

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

​@@janas.7766 Yep, I picked it because of its relevance to his character arc and especially its conclusion, which has him finally move on from guilt and allow himself to be happy as he smiles at Tifa in the church scene. I thought it worked really well as a non-intrusive background noise as well.

i hope you can do another video comparing your analysis of the OG (like you did in this video) to the remake. i feel like they were less subtle and open to interpretation, and more explicit with character interactions.

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

It is, Nojima has already stated that "In FFVII remake there will be much less room for player imagination. This fact will probably change the feel of the story considerably. People who know the original might not know quite how to take it." So I am pretty hopeful that we're looking at reaching the end of this insanity soon.

@violetcrimes

3 жыл бұрын

​@@DutchDread Dear God i hope so. i don't even care who people ship but changing the story is disrespectful to this timeless piece of work and it's creators. so many brilliant aspects of the game are overlooked because of the LTD and who gets to play with cloud's d!ck. cloud's relationships are almost symbols of his journey to self acceptance. it's interesting that when he embraces his feelings for tifa is when he begins to accept himself. other than cloud's mom and zack, no one else truly knows him. it's also very telling that the real cloud shows up about 3 times in the OG game. in his childhood flashbacks, the nibelhiem flashbacks and after the lifestream sequence where they subsequently share a night together under the highwind. the only time we see the real him, he is either making life changing decisions for tifa's sake, or sharing romantic moments with her.

@Dutchdread Dread, i recemntly bought FF7 OG and i just remembered this scene: kzread.info/dash/bejne/p4OqsaWmntyZpqw.html What did Cait sith mean by sayin "poor Tifa"? Was he foreshadowing the complicated relationship in the future? Or was he pity of her just bekauze he saw that Aerith + Cloud are perfect for each other?

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

The second most likely, he foresaw a great future, however, he was wrong. That's kind of the point, Cait sith isn't some amazing future teller, most of his predictions are wrong. Remember, Cait Sith is just a robot, driving another robot, being controlled by a dude in a suit in shinra. The reason for that scene isn't much of a mystery, it's to make Aeriths death hit harder. Remember, Aeriths death is supposed to be shocking, that's why she's portrayed as she is, that's why the narrative tries to convince us that this is some disney romance. Because it's supposed to shock us when they pull out the rug from under us and say "no, this isn't real, Cloud wasn't a hero, in real life things aren't the rose tinted". One of the lenses through which you can analyse FFVII is the lens of fantasy vs reality. This is a theme that comes back throughout FFVII. If we just look at Sephiroth, Aerith, and Tifa, their names are all references to the Kabbalah and the search for the "true self", or in other words, enlightenment, or "the promised land". The way to reach the promised land is to cast off your false self, which of course ties into Cloud. Clouds journey in FFVII is about getting back to his real self, and every connection he has ties into either his real self, or his fake self. His fake self is a fantasy he created, the "idealized hero" that he wants to be, the strong cool loner who protects the girl. When it comes to Tifa and Aerith, they tie into his real self, and his fantasy self respectively. Aerith is a magical girl, an ancient savior in need of a hero to protect her. But she's not real, she falls in love with the lie, the reason she becomes interested in Cloud is because the fake image he's built up is actually her ex. She's even stated to not know who the "real Cloud" is. She falls in love with Soldier Cloud, perhaps she could have loved real Cloud as well, but well never find out. Tifa, meanwhile, fell in love with the real Cloud, the awkward boy who said he'd come save her. Both girls see fake Cloud, and while Aerith likes fake Cloud, Tifa clearly does not, we see this reflected in small things, Aerith likes Clouds eyes, the eyes that look like Zacks, as does Jessie, but not Tifa. Tifa sees his eyes and is sad, because she longs for the real Cloud. So both girls have this connection to fake Cloud, both see their past loves in him, and both are unsure of what it means. However, Aeriths connection turns out to be with the fantasy, while Tifa's connection turned out to be with the real Cloud. It's by accepting who he is, and what is real, that Cloud fulfills his character arc, by accepting reality over fantasy. And reality isn't a disney movie, reality isn't "fortune tellers" and "chance meetings with flower girls". Real life is Tifa, who was his motivation ever since he was a kid, who isn't a damsel in distress but a martial artists in her own right. Who was there for him through thick and thin. Who is an equal comrade in battle, who you earn points with by showing weakness, etc, etc.

@random_guitar_dude3817

3 жыл бұрын

Just wow

@random_guitar_dude3817

3 жыл бұрын

I think were still waiting for yer in detail analysis of the remake? Is It any where near completion? Just askin, no pressure

@random_guitar_dude3817

3 жыл бұрын

Also guys, i found this: silver-wield.tumblr.com/post/627147246780203008/i-always-found-shipping-wars-kind-of-dumb-while-i this lady has a point y'know? And also the flower trample to reach Tifa, and then the YET ANOTHER trample on his bike which he got from Tifa. Wow. Also the way she approaches Cleriths and double standards, really interesting. Why Aerith cant move on from CLoud if she could do the same with Zack? interesting points made there people.

@zae1371

3 жыл бұрын

"Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star!" In the Remake Aerith has stars on the shoulders of her jacket and jewelry with stars if you pick the red dress in Wall market (the OG default). And where else you find stars? On Stamp's hat, a character that shows a strict connection with Zack. Who was called "puppy" in Crisis Core. You want to bet that it will turn out that the "real star" is Zack and Cait Sith prediction was influenced by Cloud's alter ego?

what are your predictions on the deaths in the remakes :>

@ptb_dante

2 жыл бұрын

haveu watched new episode of dress-up darling ?

This video makes me Love both Aerith and Tifa equally rather then favor one over the other. When you point out how they both share the role of female leads with their own purpose for the story, it makes sense now in Advent Children Complete when you see how their roles were switched, When Aerith was the heroine of the external conflict of FF7's story, Tifa in ACC becomes the external heroine, she is calling to Cloud to become the hero again for another crisis the world is facing after being beaten by Loz, she can't handle the external problems alone so steps in Aerith who takes the internal role that Tifa had for when Cloud was broken inside. There Aerith gives Cloud peace and Closure, the forgivenness he sought that Tifa can't give, Cloud needed closure and he got it, able to forgive himself thus able to become the Hero once again for Tifa, the kids, his friends and the world. For the life of me I don't get how some shippers twist the film up for their own ship at times or back in the early 2000s and 2010s.

@taufikchandra6826

4 жыл бұрын

he discusses about who is actually a person loved by cloud based on plot stories, the answer is tifa who can help you solve your problem? the answer does not always have to be tifa, it can be aerith or someone else this is the same as when you have a problem, it doesn't have to be someone you love who can help you, but it can be from your best friend or your colleague

@frankbalatbat1804

4 жыл бұрын

@@taufikchandra6826 You must have misread me, cause not once in my comment have I stated Cloud loves Aerith more than Tifa nor do I refute his video regarding Cloud and Tifa being the endgame couple. Rather I point something out about how the video describes both female leads playing the External (Aerith) and Internal (Tifa) roles of the story upon which when you watch Advent Children the roles are reversed to fit the themes Advent Children is telling in it's story which sadly is being misinterpreted still by rabid Clerith fans who think in the film Cloud is longing for Aerith and not happy with Tifa when they are wrong on both cases. It is infuriating to me how those rabid fans downplay the mental state of Cloud, his Survivor's Guilt, his anxieties, fears and the feeling of inadequacy which was hindering his relationships particularly with Tifa and tarnishing the memories of both Aerith and Zack whose Character also gets downplayed as much as Tifa, which is a shame.

@taufikchandra6826

4 жыл бұрын

@@frankbalatbat1804 in my opinion the role of aerith in AC still remains in external conflict, in OG ff7 memory of cloud has returned because tifa help cloud regain his memories in lifestream scene, but actually cloud has not been completely free from the influence of jenova jenova is the eternal enemy of cetra, jenova and the influence of geostigma cannot be resolved by Tifa who is only an ordinary human, when cloud has begun to live happily with tifa, he sees the grave zack and aerith, cloud mind sinks in sadness remember his failure, jenova cells and geostigma in cloud body regains control of his mind, cloud becomes forgotten with the purpose of his life. Jenova dominates one's mind when the person is in a weak mental state. zack's body is also injected with jenova cells, zack is never affected by jenova because zack has a very strong mentality. only aeriths can heal cloud and everyone who is infected with the geostigma virus. Jenova/geostigma = external conflict

@MarraLo0390

4 жыл бұрын

@@taufikchandra6826 I think Jenova/geostigma is an internal conflict jeopardizing the inside body of human beings while Kadaj's gang is the external conflict. Aerith while in the spiritual state can cure(with the help of cetra bloodline) the geostigma inside while Tifa in the physical state can help accompanied with Cloud and the others can defeat Kadaj's gang.

@chibiasta

4 жыл бұрын

88bitz showreel rabid Clerith fans indeed. They have no command of the story. They understand absolutely nothing of Clouds inner struggle and what he was going through as a human being... all they care about is their nonexistent ship, nothing else in the story matters lol smh

Thanks for this video, it seems really difficult for many people to understand it! But I wanted to ask you what you thought about this scene: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oKuclsR8f8-2ddo.html I know that after chapter 14 LT seems to be over, but in JP here Cloud says "Daijobu ka?" which is a generic term to say "Everything is ok?", so he seems to be asking both of them, but he seems to be looking only Aerith, and they stay alone for a moment at the back of the car, do you think something happened here?

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's a difficult scene to interpret, I've spent some time thinking about it but I am not 100% sure what the correct interpretation is. I would say that nothing there indicates that Cloud was only asking Aerith aside from the fact that Tifas reaction comes across as a bit annoyed. In real life I wouldn't make much of it, but in a game these things are deliberately shown in a certain way, these things are intentional, the only question is "what's the intention". Which is something that you can only really speculate over after the games are done. It could be that Cloud asked both but Tifa didn't take it as such, it could be that Cloud is more worried about Aerith, but that could also be because he's consistently shown to have more confidence in Tifas ability to handle herself than Aerith. This also ties into the fantasy vs reality aspect of FFVII where Cloud is living out a fantasy life through Aerith. Cloud WANTS to be the hero, he WANTS to save the damsel in distress. Tifa is not that, after Nibleheim, she becomes an ass kicker who can handle herself. A lot of what appeals to people about the Aerith/Cloud connection is that they see it as a fantasy romance. Unfortunatelly, that's also why it doesn't work within the themes of FFVII, which are about facing reality and being yourself (among other things of course), Cloud living a fantasy ISN'T a good thing. What is for sure though is that afterwards, Cloud specifically makes sure to pay extra attention to Tifa. Which is why the next time he makes sure to ask her and HER alone. Whether Cloud actually asked Aerith specifically, or whether Tifa just took it the wrong way, the one thing that's certain is that Cloud immediately made sure to correct the "mistake" and make sure she knew was aware of it. Having Tifa think he's more worried about someone else than her is not acceptable to him, and that's in his Soldier persona.

@4kkichan

3 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread Thank you for the answer! Yes, it's true, afterwards he only asks Tifa, maybe it's really to make up for the mistake or balance things out. Do you also have a twitter account? I share there a lot of information about FFVII and FFVII Remake, especially about translation and adaptation (NA is really shameful in some moments).

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

@@4kkichan I do occasionally, until I forget the password or get banned for some nonsense, but I don't use it.

@nagisanagisa_hayashi4586

3 жыл бұрын

Akito Sohma oh, I am glad someone else pick this one up too, I thought I was reading too much into things that’s not there lol I have to say, I agree that Tifa somewhat looked annoyed here, but had to disagree about Cloud’s reaction. To me, Cloud looked very confused, as if he doesn’t know why he prioritize Aerith instead of Tifa, he pretty much mortified and couldn’t move until Tifa call out to them. If I have to explain what I saw here, I’d say that’s Jenova’s doing, and Cloud is starting to catch himself doing some weird things that he can’t explain. Shortly after this, it was the scene where Aerith grabbing his arm, and as a result, getting Tifa to do the same. My take is that’s just Aerith’s way of pushing Tifa to be more vocal about her feeling instead of bottling up all the time. And after this, the boss fight, and when those train drops, it was clear that Cloud heavily prioritize Tifa, going straight to her direction, covering her with his own body. When they got up,that big smile Tifa has for him seems to me that Tifa is happy with the reassurance Cloud gave her, and the way Aerith look all happy and smiley, almost gave me that “proud mother” vibe about how please she is with his performance lol

@4kkichan

3 жыл бұрын

@@nagisanagisa_hayashi4586 You're probably right, although I don't think it has anything to do with Jenova's cells here XD I'd say he just realized he made a mistake, I think it could happen to him too. But I agree, Aerith really looks like a wingman sometimes!

I guess, you might understand the story/plot/narration better than Square.

@DutchDread

3 жыл бұрын

I might, it wouldn't be the first time that creators have lost sight of what made their work great in the first place. Kitase himself has said that he needed to play the game again because he didn't even remember how the party got to Kalm. But from the remake it seems like for the most part they still get it, Clouds character motivations seem to be intact at least, although I am very doubtful whether they can properly keep all the themes surrounded the irreversibility of death intact. I could argue that they've lost sight of what made Sephiroth work, and have made some bad choices concerning atmosphere, but I think those are mostly the result not of them not knowing what made FFVII great, but of them underplaying what effects certain things would have on the experience (and overplaying others). But concerning the "LTD" at least they seem to be pretty on track, if it ever was a thing, it's clearly not in the remake.

@katyadade1041

3 жыл бұрын

@@DutchDread What bothers me is Advent Children, as although Cloud is depressed and can’t let go of the feeling of guilt over Aerith’s death he is almost back to his ZaCloud persona and their dynamics with Tifa is far from being “we trust and love each other, let’s try to make things work”. It’s depicted like he can’t let himself live because of his feelings for Aerith, but it’s also unclear if the feeling is love or obsession. At the same time it’s depicted as if Tifa wanted them to be a family in Advent Children. What do you think?

@4kkichan

3 жыл бұрын

@@katyadade1041 The answers to these questions can be found in the official guide to AC: "Reunion Files": archive.org/details/artbook_FFVII_Reunion_Files_Advent_Children_Artbook/mode/2up Cloud's only feeling towards Aerith that is mentioned is guilt over not being able to save her. Cloud resolves his troubles and moves back in with Tifa and the kids after AC. At the end of the novel "The Kids are Alright," Cloud compares him, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel to Evan, Kyrie, and Vics, saying that they are family, just like them, thus fulfilling Tifa's wish. Basically Cloud suffers from cherophobia, this kind of attitude is found mostly in Japan or at least among asians, so I'm not surprised that it was not understood by many western people. At the beginning of AC Cloud thinks that he doesn't deserve to be happy because of his failures, and he fears that he won't be able to save anyone else.

The creators of the remake are not creating a love triangle. Cloud in rebirth straight-up friendzones Aerith. They are making it even clearer that Cloud romantic interest is Tifa and only Tifa.

@adamnesico

9 күн бұрын

Not. Aerith was planned to be the love interest even before create the character of Tifa. Initial publicity of the original game sold it as an impossible love. Advent Children conformed Clerith. And Cloud has more affection to Aerith st the beginning of Rebirth.

@fgjan986

9 күн бұрын

@@adamnesico I think the game and AC both confirm Tifa to be the romantic interest. I remember when I first played the game and watch the movie to come out with that conclusion. I didn’t really have a preference, it just seemed obvious to me. I also think Tifa is the obvious romantic interest in rebirth. I’m surprised there is an actual shipping war over this. I think it detracts from the true meaning of the game 🤷🏻‍♂️

@adamnesico

9 күн бұрын

@@fgjan986 How? Advent Children looks very Clerith, above all the ending. What does the game mean? Someone said is a story about loss and heal and move along. According to such theory, the sense wiuld be: Cliud loved Tifa. Falls in love with Aerith. Aerith dies. Tifa heals Cloud, and he finds a new opportunity to love her. I liked that. Id like that to be the plot. But Advent Children ending destroys such plot. Rather confirms the initial idea of impossible love.

@fgjan986

8 күн бұрын

@@adamnesico you mean the ending where Aerith leaves with Zack? 😂

@adamnesico

8 күн бұрын

@@fgjan986 i dont know if Aerith plans a bigamous relation in the afterlife and Cloud agrees. What i know is, in the credits, Cloud is seen driving through a flowers field and Aerith waiting him. That’s totally Clerith. I hate that ending, i wanted him ending happy with Tifa, but is the ending that was given.

I can see that you put a lot of time and care into this vid, which I really appreciate. The idea of plot vs story vs narrative is very interesting. I think there are many things that come into play that also can be considered. Things that go beyond our Western notions of story, let alone love and romance. I’ve just put up a vid on my thoughts on this subject. So much to consider!

From what I've read from the other side said... "The moment he said Cloud was ZackCloud, 'oohhh he's one of THOSE guy.' I immediately turned off the video." Without hearing the whole explanation, of course 😂

Omg another 1 hour long FF7 video. Can someone do a timesl stamp for me. Eventho I'll eventually watch the whole thing anyways 🤣

Thanks for putting everything together. Some people denied it was a ZackxCloud but i think he was. When Tifa found Cloud in Midgar, although it was 5years after the Nebleheim incident but Cloud was in coma, his feeling for Tifa supposed to be as much as 5yrs ago. However he didnt show any feeling for Tifa eventhoughhe made it as a soldier, wasnt that his first motivation? That made me believe that was a ZackxCloud.

@DutchDread

4 жыл бұрын

We actually have a bit of confirmation from creators about exactly what is happening there. I take what the developers say with a grain of salt but since it matches what is also stated in the game I think we can take it for canon. Sephiroth tells Cloud that he was constructed by Tifas memories. That Jenova has the power to read minds and change appearances. Most people assume Sephiroth was just lying to Cloud in order to mess with his head, but in actually it's a half truth (perhaps Sephiroth even believed it was the full truth, who knows). FFVII states that Jenova came in the guise of peoples loved ones. Apparently Jenova had at least somewhat the ability to read minds and then adjust herself accordingly. The developers have stated that a similar, lesser version of that ability is present in those with Jenova cells. Through the Jenova cells in Cloud, he apparently read parts of Tifas mind and constructed a personality partially based on that. It's why he's catatonic when she finds him, and yet almost immediately seems to recover somewhat and confirm his identity. This is of course not how his entire fake identity was created, just a part of the whirlwind of crazy that is going on inside Clouds psyche at that moment. We also know that Tifa wasn't aware of Clouds feelings for her, this was stated in Clouds subconscious. People often say that Cloud, when he's not himself, is not interested in Tifa. I disagree, and I don't really find it relevant either way, I don't think Cloud shows particular romantic interest to either girl during this time, let alone a romantic preference, nor would it matter if he did since he's not himself. However, and this is pure speculation on my part, if Clouds soldier persona is based on Tifas idea of Cloud, and her idea of Cloud wasn't in love with her. Then we would expect the fake persona not to be in love with her either.

You lost me here - people don't focus on one girl for their whole life to leave her when a new girl comes up. You said reality doesn't work like that. I think we are living in different worlds. All the divorced ppl I know ended that way. Girls more than guys tbh. Speaking from og perspective without reading supplement material. Because the perspective is before it was written. As far as the love triangle thing. Ye there is none. At most it is implied but Cloud doesn't know anyone loves him. Aerith flirts with him and after everything he implies he enjoyed it but that's the most. Tifa doesn't really say she loves him neither. In the high affection scene she pushes him to show physically how he feels since he doesn't know what to say. Realistically best scenario girl can tell you. Though it was written in ultimania that high affection scene is still ambiguous. Funny story with that is the guy writting the scene wanted them to be in highwinds chocobo barn together. Later walking out saying we did it. They said hes stupid and told him it should be ambiguous. Og Tifa is also an unrealiable narrator. She doesn't remember 100% of her past. Not confronting Cloud about it comes from this. And in the lifestream Cloud tells her flat out - we grown up near each other but we DIDNT know each other. Though tbh confronting Tifa with her obsession of Cloud isn't damaging to that relationship. In that moment they are literally building it for the first time. You have a good point Aerith left Cloud, Tifa stayed. I think it's literally the best cloti point. And I'm here on the fence. The whole plot vs narrative thing. There is a difference when a Cetra must stop Sephiroth and there is only one. The end is Cloud sitting with Tifa thinking about Aerith. I have a suspicion this is the direct start of shipping wars. In the whole ff7 media Cloud doesn't show any preference while both women love him(albeit one after death). I'm 100% sure he would never do it if they both lived. So the answer to the triangle in whole ff7 media is there never was one. And there is no cannon girlfriend. While Cloud clearly wants sex more from Tifa and likes to flirt more with Aerith and treats her like a soulmate there is no action from him. He only looks inwards.

@mikev8746

2 ай бұрын

I swear there are two kinds of people in the FF sphere that are delusional. OG FF purists that can't let go of the past. And Aerith shippers 😂 Come on man you cant truly believe all the shit you write here. Surely you must know you're writing it to calm yourself down and not so much because its fact?

@wmen48

2 ай бұрын

@@mikev8746 hehe you know old people relieve old memories more than live in present? While to you it might be my copium, to me it's relieving my thoughs from 97 until today. And Aerith shippers? She was the character in the game. Is that shipping? Sakaguchi was asked in 98 who is the hero of the story because Famitsu ppl though it was Aerith. Nowadays ppl say it's Zack🤦

@mikev8746

2 ай бұрын

@@wmen48 I get that you're reliving shit lol. All I'm saying is to actually accept that's what you're doing. I do the same with DBZ. I replay the Freeza/Cell/Buu saga every fucking summer and pretend it's 04-20. Because those times rocked. But i'm mature enough to be aware of that and not hate anything new DBZ does. And people ship Aerith yeah. Because of preference. Preference has nothing to do with the actual plot though. That was my point and only my point.

@wmen48

2 ай бұрын

@@mikev8746 well you're fair. Post og nothing in the expanded universe is good to me tbh. Well maybe parts of maiden novel which are semi cannon because they outsorced it and later retconed. The thing that actually loses me the most is that the storytelling and narrative completely changes from og. And also I dislike remakes combat system.

@mikev8746

2 ай бұрын

@@wmen48 I really dont agree it has changed completely. But I get thats how it feels to people who are super invested in the OG. I played it as a kid and then a bit later on as an adult. So it's just not so bad for me. I don't like every element of it. But if I like something allot but one or two things irk me I'm the type of guy to overlook it because I feel that stands in the way of my happyness. And yeah if you don't like the combat that's a taste thing too. That can be. Though I don't think you should expect to many games to say have turn based combat anymore. Specially not FF. But maybe something like FF16 instead is more you're thing I dunno. Tastes are tastes.

This guy's a weird Tifa shipper. Can't believe I wasted 20 mins of my life listening to such mental and verbal gymnastics. Personally, I would rather ship Cloud is Scarlet since she's the hottest. But between Tifa and Aerith, the choice is clear. Even in the events of AC, Cloud is miserable with Tifa. If anything they have a more sibling relationship in the movie than anything else. And yet you people keep pushing your crazy character ships, lol.

@DutchDread

8 ай бұрын

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand AC, nor Clouds character. Sorry, but anyone who brings up Clouds behavior in AC as an argument against Cloud and Tifa proves they have the story comprehension capabilities of a 3rd grader. It's sad....really sad.

@TheChaosgumbo

4 ай бұрын

What a silly post, especially now that Rebirth has released which clearly shows who is Cloud's true love interest

@mikev8746

2 ай бұрын

You are projecting so hard holy hell haha. The guy is literally trying to explain this through the lens of the story and the significance this romantic sub plot has for a change to THE ACTUAL story. Meanwhile all you're focused on is your lame preferences. It's crazy.

@artvandalleigh7894

Ай бұрын

This is some tilted ranting. It also hasn't aged well post rebirth.

@pipsqueaksgaming7029

10 күн бұрын

You’re not right in the head