Charlie Kirk is NEVER going to allow a leftist Analytic Philosophy Professor with a Ph.D to debate him ever again. This is undoubtedly the best debate performance Ben has ever had. Even if I weren't biased towards his viewpoints, it's unquestionable that Ben managed to demonstrate the logic of his arguments and didn't allow Charlie Kirk from misleading the audience with bullshit talking points. BTW, love the point about the USPS. We need as many people defending the Postal Service as humanly possible. #SaveUSPS

@cmiozzi8940

2 жыл бұрын

One way I know Ben killed it is by the comments on Kirk's video. They're either 1. complaining that Krik let him talk to much or 2. Just complaining about how Ben looks. Def. not winning behavior!

@user-dg6bl2ry2y

2 жыл бұрын

@@cmiozzi8940 I've seen this too. One guy said that ben was out of his depth and i asked him to point to a specific point and he said something like " oh i just meant in general" and couldn't point to a specific example

@user-dg6bl2ry2y

2 жыл бұрын

@@Vernichterlein Oh sure i know that they tend to stick to there beliefs. It's hard to change people's minds and Kuklinski's style might actually be better in regards to kirks fans although I'd have to think about that to really make a judgement on it. What i do think was great about this is it reminds people (or at least i hope it does) that the "destroyed in 3 minuets" style that people have come to love so much isn't actually legitimate for of arguments. Especially ones that are complex. Hopefully people recognize that these things need to be talked about in depth.

Ben: "If God is the reason why we should have these rights -" Charlie: "The unmoved mover" Ben's brain: "Wtf? Let it go, Ben, let it go..."

Kirk has no response for anything that Burgis says, he just goes "Ok, so let me ask you this" and tries to weasel out on to a different topic. He even brought his binder with a bunch of stats, and still Ben kept slapping him down.

Kirk saying he’s never heard somebody praise the postal service? USPS consistently gets a higher than 90% approval rating, making it the most popular government agency by far. Because it works and not obscenely dictated by a profit motive (or at least until the past few years)!

@chaotickreg7024

2 жыл бұрын

He doesn't remember the big postal service early voting fiasco before the 2020 election? I think Last Week Tonight had a whole episode praising the Postal Service.

@Caitlin_TheGreat

2 жыл бұрын

It's not that Charlie hasn't heard of it, this is part of the right-wing propaganda campaign to tank public opinion of the USPS so that there's less resistance to them gutting it and leaving all mail to the private sector (which routinely fails in comparison).

@diallo1347

2 жыл бұрын

Kirk likes to pretend that Trump/Republicans didn't actively try to actively sabotage the USPS by defunding it, cutting cost, and placing crippling economic requirements to make it less efficient. And still, it's better than UPS, Amazon, and FedEx who STILL use USPS to ship their goods.

@Sanosukeafo

2 жыл бұрын

Ya this is why "anecdotes" are a dumb way to argue. Personally I hate UPS and FedEx, I always have horrific experiences with them. When I see I can use the USPS or choose them to deliver my packages, I always pick them because they always do the best job for me. But that still is just an anecdote. Approval ratings, polling, etc would be a better way to look at the public favorability of a company. And as you said, USPS has an extremely high Approval rating. Especially for rural areas where they are the only game in town.

@dontaskwhatkindofmusic

2 жыл бұрын

As someone that’s worked e-commerce I LOVE USPS more than any alternative. None of his libertarian fuck friends have praised the USPS is what he means.

That's how to give them an argument. Bravo, Ben. You came to kick ass and chew bubblegum - and you were all out of bubblegum (because you shared it, like a good socialist boy).

Charlie must've nervously flipped that exact same binder page about twenty times. Good on you, Ben

re: Kirk's point about "individual responsibility" with regard to healthcare... If someone diets, regularly exercises, and doesn't smoke, they would still be rewarded in a society with socialized healthcare in the sense that they would continue to retain their money while possibly having friends and family members with healthcare issues having access to services. People in good health that have to help ailing family members or are providing in-home care would be provided with substantial relief. The "conservative populist" position on this is actually individualist, corporate, and anti-family. It is also more about letting people suffer than benefiting anyone.

@HypatiaMuse

2 жыл бұрын

Also, some people are born with chronic health issues or develop them and they have nothing to do with 'bad personal choices'. Chances are most people will face a health issue some time in their lives no matter how conscientious and fitness-minded they are. Its a scary position to be in when uninsured or under insured due to anxiety over what could likely happen.

@rhettgreenfield4549

2 жыл бұрын

@@HypatiaMuse Agreed. Nice screen name by the way. :)

I am one of those people who used to be hard core conservative up until a year ago and wanted to do some soul searching and happened upon debates like this which challenged my beliefs. One thing I like about debates is sometimes I’m still unsure about one particular policy etc and I need to see a progressive knock down each conservative point about that thing to help me find out where I am on the issue … thank you for this!!!!

Kirk wants to tax Bezos because he doesn't like his lifestyle or whatever. Not because he has a broader critique of inequality or anything. Bezos could come out as anti abortion tomorrow and Kirk would be against taxing him more

It always amazes me the absolute hypocrisy and disconnect in claiming to champion 'family values' but not supporting conditions that make it possible to afford starting and maintaining a family in the first place. I also noticed how Charlie Kirk calls it 'Democrat Socialism'- apparently to try and associate it with the political party. Cheap tactic.

Charlie doesn’t come off as good here as when he’s debating untrained college students. Here he is just rattling off Heritage Foundation talking points in quick succession with them being popped by Ben.

Watching this again, this is a slaughter. Charlie Kirk has been up to this for years and can't get basic facts straight and Ben crushes him for the entire "debate". Ben Gleib was right, he is a C-list political pundit. On Charlie's point about the money going to a private charity and not the IRS - Charlie, it's the Internal REVENUE Service. Their purpose and core function is to collect tax revenue, not determine how it is spent. No one can accidentally be this stupid. Charlie's answer to healthcare was having the government force hospitals to publish prices...I thought Charlie was for small government.

you can't have both, Charlie. either god is an adviser helping us with objective morality or he dictates what's moral. the answer is not both. but the best part is where Charlie gets dragged into arguing that the reason for the horrible outcomes of US healthcare system is that Americans are unhealthier than Canadians and Brits.

@mattgilbert7347

2 жыл бұрын

That's hilarious 😂 He's just restating the consequences of a terrible health system (and the rest, nutrition, poverty, and so on)

Looking at this a second time and I think... I think the reason Charlie did such a bad job here, is cause I think Ben got through. He couldn't admit it obviously but I think Charlie kirk actually in his head found himself agreeing with Ben. The universality argument he made in the first hour was a key that unlocked the possibility that government might not be more bureaucracies but less. You can see him wrestle with it the whole time. He says "you're right, I think you're right." A lot in the second hour. He's got to fight with it but I do think Ben actually got an arrow through the gates. A fantastic win for the left.

@cmiozzi8940

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! There's a point in the debate where Ben is talking about how Canadians have similar lifestyles than Americans and you hear a super geniune "That IS true..." like he's really thinking about it!

@mattgilbert7347

2 жыл бұрын

It was great. You could see the cogs turning.

Lmao the "both" answer to the Euthyphro is incredible. I would literally fail an undergrad student paper that give that answer. (Unless maybe they defended some paraconsistent logic ). Kirk trotts it so confidently. He clearly doesn't understand the epistemology/ontology distinction. Wow this killed me.

BIG W FOR BEN!!!! You deserve to celebrate 🍾 This is the best left v right debate I’ve seen in years, and probably ever in terms of the current generation of political media people.

I'm barely into it and Ben's statements are fantastic. Charlie just kinda repeats the same talking points in different order. It's like verbal Taco Bell -the same five ingredients, but this time it's in a taco with cheeto dust! Whoa, innovation! sigh... EDIT: Having watched over half of it now, I think Ben is quickly becoming my new favorite analytic philosopher.

Absolutely outstanding, Ben.

I've only had one piece of mail from USPS go missing (a package I was expecting never arrived) in my entire life, and I'm 53 years old.

The Euthyphro discussion clearly demonstrates that Kirk has a *very* limited grasp of the philosophical issue at hand. I find it very tempting to generalize that limited grasp to all philosophical issues.

This was every bit as good as I'd hoped it would be, and better. I know Ben's position on doing this stuff isn't about converting the person he's debating or even their hard core of support, but there were moments when Charlie looked as though a penny was dropping 😳

@bacchus8103

2 жыл бұрын

I know you LIBS are gonna drag me for it, but I think Charlie did really well in this debate! Prob not giving him his due, are we? He's pretty stupid, yet made it all the way through without pitching a fit and getting nasty like he did w/ Ben Gleib.

So great that this happened in person. Normally I'd listen to this like a podcast but so glad I can watch this. Ben's body language is hilarious, leaning right into Charlie, staring him down, theatrically switching his lean from one knee to the other whenever Charlie drops a clanger of a philosophy reference. Charlie hiding behind his massive binder, furtively writing notes and looking around for help. None of this would have come across over zoom so thank you so much for making the trip to do it in person. I just got to the bit where he goes full David Brent trying to show off his french and had to stop because the cringe was too hard. Amazing work Ben, thank you.

The Denmark does not have a minimum wage - this is plainly not true, there are sectoral minimum wages and it is illegal to pay less.

@chaotickreg7024

2 жыл бұрын

Sectoral minimum wages? You mean like different types of jobs have different minimums? Are there any sectors that have problems with this?

@daPawlak

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaotickreg7024 yep, like for each there is negotiation with unions. I don't know it well enough to answer your question, but the trick shitty employers do is to hire people for one position but register for other with lower minimum wage, which is illegal but they get away with it if they hire immigrants.

@chaotickreg7024

2 жыл бұрын

@@daPawlak I hate to hear immigrants are being mistreated but I think it sounds like a good idea to have everyone's wage backed up by a union instead of letting people and governments vote on it. It's so weird to hear neighbors tell me they voted so that I would get paid less because they think I don't deserve the present minimum.

@daPawlak

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaotickreg7024 yeah, the nordic system works well, but requires strony unions to function. There is practical minimal wage since every profession is covered. I mean in practice I know how it works in Iceland much better then how it works in Denmark, but I was told Icelandes based their on Danish. In Iceland you are in a union by default and need to opt out if you don't want to pay dues. If you did not opt out but your employer did not transfer dues on your behalf, union will go to court to get that money from them. Also you get a lot of cool extra things like cheaper plane tickets or almost free accommodation in union summer houses, all of that priviledges are connected to time one pay dues, so often people stay in union even between jobs since due is very small.

@hansfrederikjacobsen264

2 жыл бұрын

@@chaotickreg7024 It is a complicated thing to get around. I’m from Denmark, so it’s impossible not to prick my ears whenever our situation comes up in a discussion like this. Needless to say someone like Kirk doesn’t benefit from bringing up the Nordic countries in any way, but it is strictly true that we have no minimum wage. Like Pawel says, unions are involved in formulating the correct lowest minimum. But another thing to remind a right winger when they bring this up, is that our wages are kept naturally high enough because we tax companies so heavily that they are incentivised to pay out wages for quality competitive labour, instead of keeping a profit which would otherwise be taxed away from them. There are many ways to slice a cake

Populism takes more than believing that the moral center of the universe is the strong family unit. Does Charlies ever explain how conservative populists plan to make things better and easier for the family? Cuz right now most young people look at a family as a huge cost that they can't afford and no conservative policies focus on removing the barriers that prevent families from forming (except maybe Texas forcing women to have a child). It all seems like lip service.

Ben, this was truly an excellent performance. One of your best debates yet. You masterfully and consistently rebuked Charlie, and you did an exceptional job blowing up the shallow rightist talking points Charlie kept lobbing your way. Very well done.

My favorite part is where Kirk implied that either my brain tumor was caused by me, or at least that we can’t have universal healthcare cause some people’s cancer is caused by their own actions. Thanks.

Ben, you killed it man. This was so good. You kept your eye on the ball when it mattered and rolled with the punches when you needed to. Well done!

Following Kirk's logic here, Stalinist tyranny is justified if the dictator worked hard to establish the state institutions..

This was an absolute blowout. Nicely done.

zoomer here, i watched the whole thing. very entertaining and gave me some great arguments to use when talking about socioeconomics with my friends.

How much longer is Charlie Kirk going to film himself getting owned?! I've only seem this episode and two others and in all three he got destroyed.

Finally getting to finish this... with a glass of wine

I love how, at 2:40:50, when Ben brings up the Euthyphro Dilemma. And Charlie briefly makes a stunned and confused expression.

@hideshiseyes2804

2 жыл бұрын

And then goes “ah yes I definitely know what that is, I’m very smart, please continue sir.”

@liamsloan5410

2 жыл бұрын

Kirk did not understand the euthyphro dilemma at all. The 2 prongs are mutually exclusive because god either commands it because it's good or it's good because god demands it.

@thoughtful1233

2 жыл бұрын

And the Euthyphro Dilemma is level 1 in God discussions. Embarrassing.

I've never seen someone get their cheeks clapped this amicably

Yooo Ben, this was exceptional. You were on it, had a solid response for everything, held your ground when he pushed, you corrected or clarified all of his sources... Really well done

I like how Charlie just says random philosophy terms a bunch, like he has to name drop to make himself sound well read. Also, he needs to take a metaethics class.

@thoughtful1233

2 жыл бұрын

Dropping names and book titles makes you sound learned to those who are uninitiated in the topic at hand. To people who are actually educated, it's just a straightforward way to make your ignorance obnoxious.

@serversurfer6169

Жыл бұрын

"Sure, we can go metaphysical too… 😒" 😂

Charlie wasn’t taking in any of Ben’s points they were blowing right over his head and he just continued right on along the same train of thought even though it was just blown to shit in front of his eyes it was amazing to watch.

@ttttypes

2 жыл бұрын

He might have been on uppers

I also love the usps. That was surprisingly wholesome. Thanks Ben.

So far(an hour and twenty-one minutes in), my only gripe with Ben's performance here is that he keeps letting Charlie get away with throwing around that "Natural Law" shit, without making him clarify just what exactly it is he means when he says that.

@thoughtful1233

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think denying natural law is a popularly winning point. Natural law as something outside of human negotiation is absurd, but it might not be best to point that out to hardcore conservatives you want to win over.

Well debated, Ben.

Yeah, Ben really gets Charlie to reveal his ignorance or stubborn stupidity. Which is rather funny considering how much Charlie is determined to appear intelligent with his flaunting of knowing a few phrases in French or dropping names of philosophers and historical figures. It's all trivia-based knowledge, though, because anytime things turn toward practical understanding, Charlie just fumbles and fails. Also, something Charlie says during the little healthcare bit really caught my attention, at about 2:31:00 -ish, Charlie says that he is against anything government does because it's _so inefficient._ To me this reveals just how completely out of touch Charlie is with working people. Anyone who has worked for any franchise or national/global corporation all of which are enormously wealthy will have seen just how completely inefficient those things are, how stupidly they are run and that the whole operation balances on a knife's edge... except that they remain profitable because of how extremely they underpay their employees. And the only time government manages to be _worse_ than corporations is when it's purposefully sabotaged by the right or the corporate "center" so that it isn't able to function as well as it should. And in fact, the Post Office (which Charlie apparently hates talking about) is a perfect example of this, because it's been a rather amazingly well run institution for the very fact that it's a _service_ and not a for-profit business. Only after a prolonged campaign of constant sabotage has it started to fall apart... and yet it's still as good if not better than the private industry alternatives.

Charlie Kirk… a young William F. Buckley… 🤣 Props Ben, good job on this interview.

"I dont want to get bogged down on direct examinations of my claims i just want to generalize and gish gallup"

I looked forward to this debate for a while, Ben. You did a great job! Kirk's arguments are paper thin. The moment when Kirk tried to make a grand, big point on Norway's oil industry then immediately backed off nationalizing that industry reminded me a lot of the moment when he debated Vaush and tried to argue against big pharma then did the same. Populist in name only these clowns. They are only interested in capturing the discontentedness of the working class for electoral benefits. They have zero interest in policies that fix the issues for the worker.

10:26 "Rousseauean Marxist?" Hahahahahahaha, golden comment

You think him saying democrat socialist instead of democratic socialist was premeditated?

@matthewmcree1992

2 жыл бұрын

Yes it was, because he wants to tie the Democrats that Charlie Kirk's audience hate to socialism (when the Democratic Party is a centrist party at its best, and overtly anti-socialist/communist and corporatist at worst). It's also a way of insulting Ben's beliefs while having plausible deniability like how people on Fox News (especially Laura Ingraham and Sean Hannity) call the Democratic Party the "Democrat Party". Ben didn't let it bother him though, and he just kept on with the fantastic and informed arguments. This debate was even better than I could have ever expected.

I’m glad Kirk finally got a good college education.

I want to debate like Ben when I grow up!

My head cannon is that Charlie Kirk really pissed off one mail carrier and lived to regret it

Cook County is the second best county in the country; second only to, of course, Lake County.

I don't think Charlie was ever able to refute one of Ben's points, he would just bounce to a new argument after Ben deflated the last

Charlie Kirk you got knocked the fu$k out!!!!+

EPIC Takedown. Good for both of them for conceding a few points though.

This owning... I'm mean "debate" has enriched my life tremendously.. thank you Ben for simplifying the arguments for the the leftists and expose Kirk for the soulless grifter he is 👏👏👏👏👏👏 to his credit, I congratulate him for engaging with real leftists, unlike figures like Rave Dubin

2:04:22 The incomparable Jennifer Burgis saying what we're all screaming at our monitors

Wow! Charlie put down the notebook!

Why is the second half of the video SO much quieter than the first? I could barely hear Ben.

@stoneybrook57

2 жыл бұрын

I can’t hear it either 😞

Charlie is like reading the spark notes of these philosophers or watching School of Life videos and then assuming when these philosophers have tangentially similar ideas to each other that they must have directly informed one another

Foster Freeze sounds like a comic book villain.

Ah, this is just so satisfying. Charlie hardly gets a word in edge-wise and you actually make him agree with some of what you're saying. THIS is why we need to debate these people.

Dr. Burgis! That was fantastic. A note on the fine tuning argument: The rare probability of the event is completely irrelevant, it means nothing. We are tasked with determining whether or not our presence on this planet, in this solar system, with all things seemingly tuned for us in an extraordinarily rare configuration of conditions (which is a reasonably observable rarity at this point). Well, the probability that this planet produced life, given that we are the ones here observing that this planet produced life, is 100% probability. In your analogy, given the fact that the Ace of spades is on the table, the probability that the ace of spades was dealt is not 1/52, it's 1. It doesn't matter how rare it is that it might happen. If we're here, it did, and that's it. It *can't* be anything else.

@marcsimard2723

2 жыл бұрын

Ha yes When you consider the universe can roll the dice INFINITELY, then the probability of creating life is inevitable

@heraclitusblacking1293

2 жыл бұрын

The whole "fine tuning" argument never made sense to me. I mean, i get the idea, but the whole thing just seems to reduce to "Things are the way they are, if they were different that would be bad, therefore it must have been consciously made this way for us by a higher power." It seems almost like a veiled political argument.

Why is the Euthypro delema seems like they are duscussing "which came first the Chicken or the egg?".

@chaospet

2 жыл бұрын

I’ll bet Charlie’s answer to that would be “both” too

35:32 MEGA YIKES no one should ever reference Barry Goldwater as a reliable source for political advice

Ben was absolutely fantastic

Kirk's understanding of his own beliefs is shallow, let alone understanding anybody else's.

Markets were built to help people? jesus man

To his credit he let Ben talk and was even listening (not sure if he understood any of it though:))

@ItsOgre

2 жыл бұрын

You can tell a lot of what Ben says goes in one ear and out the other. When he says something that is exploded by Ben’s argument and he then continues on making the same point in a different way.

35:38 'As Barry Goldwater said in the 1960s'

Aside from Sam Seder, I don’t think I’ve seen many people just dismantle Charlie this effectively. I mean he’s a fastball down the middle, but still.

Hammock... take a drink. 🥂

Can anyone explain to me how conservatives think risk taking actually creates value? It doesn’t even make sense when analyzed by capitalist logic. Like what about engaging in a risky venture actually makes something more valuable than it otherwise would have been.

Kirk saying that people should be "rewarded" for the choices is ridiculous for things like healthcare. Healthcare shouldn't be a "reward", it should be a right. His whole argument boils down to rich people should be given preferential treatment which is bad for anything but especially bad for healthcare. He and conservatives have this insane belief that people are rich and poor purely based on their morality and therefore they think rich people are more deserving than poor people.

How has he never talked to anyone that liked the postal service?

1:13 in so far. Not that I love debate culture but Ben is hammering him pretty good so far.

Did you get some more subscribers after doing this debate?

Great job, Ben... Charlie... omg. So painful to listen to.

Binder boy likes to say words

He didnt say a single thing that was in any way in opposition to normal Republican positions of the last 40 years. Everything he said could be found in the pages of any National Review article. Does he think right wing populism is just social conservatism with slightly less enthusiastic economic libertarianism?

We are all Hegelians

Also, Kirks math is very strange. He says Norway takes in about immigrants a day and the US takes in 2,000+ per day. Although he mentions that the US is a bigger country, he doesn't do the math. The US is 65-70 times the size of Norway. So per capita they are taking in about twice what the US is. And even if I accept Kirk's claim that the real number, with illegal immigrants from Mexico is 5,000 per day, and in Norway there are basically 0 illegal immigrants, then the number are roughly the same.

I'm surprised Charlie Kirk even uploaded this

I wish you would have asked Charlie about the funding for TPUSA. Why didn't he take out a second mortgage?

Like you know,like

i'm sort of impressed w/ chuck for having the conversation. few of the rwnj's will do so.

Conservative Codebreaking 101: "The freedom to pursue virtue.." = "You're "free" to do whatever the fuck it is I *tell* you to do, because I, and people like Me, will decide what's "virtuous" for *You.*

not sure I could stomach Charlie Kirks face for this long?

Kirk makes strawmen like his name is L. Frank Baum.

Destiny was absolutely destroyed in this debate. In all seriousness though, great performance Ben, definitely shared this around a bit. Also, the guy at the 3h-ish mark rattling around stuff was absolutely obnoxious.

The fallacy is poisoning the well.

I know this is bad to say but, I mean, look at Kirk. Hahaha. Good job Ben.

As a Sixers fan, hate that Kirk was wearing a “76” shirt in his opening clip….let the games begin

Imagine asking a logic professor to debate philosophy 🤦‍♂️

Charlie brings on Dr. Rashad Richey one week and Ben Burgis the next. Why is he embarrassing himself like this? If you havent seen it yet check out the recent debate Yanis Varoufakis had with Gillian Yett on "Can we fix Capitalism".

hot 1st take: charlie-dude's hair is utterly confusing.

Also, when did the divine revelation of rights come? Nowhere in the Bible I've read. All I got was a theocracy with a frightful foreign policy and some maybe mildly progressive (for the time) domestic policies in the OT and the "give unto Caesar" and "government is a sword of God against evil" verses in the NT.

So Kirk wants min wage to keep up with inflation huh? So he wants min wage to be 24-26 hr? 15/hr is raising it too quickly but raising it to 24/hr is fine? Cool

I'm only part-way through this. But it seems like many times Ben will make a point, then Charlie goes on to make some generic comments that don't address what Ben said. Then he will change the subject.

@joebutler9850

2 жыл бұрын

And of course Kirk is reading talking points from his book 1/2 of the time.

Wow, this was total (yet cordial) brutality on Ben's part.

Kirk was really polite here which is great. I do think that he moved past and asked different questions when he didn't know how to respond to Ben.

I'm still waiting for someone to ask him about how he keeps his features that small on his face