Thank you, Ben.

Does Ryan Lake speak about determinism and our deliberation practices? A worry for me about determinism seems to have nothing to do with rather we are morally responsible, but rather our deliberation practices are compatible with determinism (that is, does our deliberation include a libertarian element in it, like perhaps a presumption of metaphysically open alternatives?). This has been deeply worrying me, and Randolphe Clarke is the one who made it more clear to me when I listened to him ask a question to Helen Beebee and when I read a bit of his book, "Libertarian Accounts of Free Will", and perhaps this was for me the central worry about determinism, and can it be reconciled with determinism or not. It leaves me a wanting compatibilist haha.

Ryan Lake's Dissertation is indeed impressive. Maybe I need to pay more attention, because all this time I thought his formal education was in political science.

We don't live in a deterministic universe. We live in a universe that features reliable causation. This can be demonstrated in a lab when you do the same experiment over and over and always get the same result. This does not show that the universe can only unfold in one specific way based on initial conditions, or that everything is predetermined. It also doesn't show that the interaction of particles controls the macro-world. The scientist can change the conditions of the experiment and get many different results since the atoms are just passive objects and don't determine anything.

@ferb8944

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, but I think both debaters were aware of this and accounted for this in their arguments. Would you argue otherwise and if so, why?

@caricue

Жыл бұрын

@@ferb8944 I have been commenting on these sorts of videos for a couple years now and I have only encountered one person who did not completely and unreservedly swallow determinism as the only conceivable way for the universe to work. It is always paired with indeterminism as its counterpoint. They say everything must be either determined or indetermined and there are no other options. They even came up with superdeterminism to get rid of indeterminism, so I'm not sure that what you said in your comment comports with reality. These guys absolutely believe that the parts control the whole and that everything is bottom up and unchangeable, as does pretty much everyone else. See Sabine Hossenfelder's free will videos for a deep dive, if you dare.

@ferb8944

Жыл бұрын

@@caricue Where exactly did they say that everything must either be determined or undetermined and there's no other options?

@caricue

Жыл бұрын

@@ferb8944 Are you being purposely obtuse or do you really not know anything about this subject? I sent you to Sabine if you are really so clueless about what determinism means, but I really can't help you if you just want to nitpick the exact wording used in this particular video. Determinism is mystical nonsense, but you go on asking your inane questions as if you were really looking for answers. Bye.

Is it just me, or does Determinism seem like an excuse for avoiding personal responsibility looking for arguments to support it?

@ComradeYinkai

2 жыл бұрын

Whether it is or isn't is irrelevant to whether it is true or not, so who cares?

@coreyc1685

2 жыл бұрын

I personally tend to get the opposite impression. Conservatives and religious nuts seem to be desperate to dig some kind of redefined, repackaged free will out of somewhere so they can justify all kinds of unnecessary cruelty as people getting their just desserts.

@DavidCDrake

2 жыл бұрын

@@ComradeYinkai Your point is well taken, but the question *is* relevant to important tangential issues like, "Why do some people lean strongly in this philosophical direction or the other when presented with similar data, arguments, etc.? What subconscious biases might be at work?" Of course, this cuts both ways: there are also lots of people (probably the vast majority, whether right or wrong) biased in favor of various notions of personal responsibility.

@caricue

2 жыл бұрын

@@ComradeYinkai When you start with the premise that free will is necessary for any idea of personal responsibility, and then go looking for a justification, then you are inevitably going to stray from reality. Either free will is a thing or not. Your need to have a moral philosophy doesn't have anything to do with how nature works.

@ComradeYinkai

2 жыл бұрын

@@caricue “When you start with the premise that free will is necessary for any idea of personal responsibility, and then go looking for a justification…” Who said free will was necessary for any idea of personal responsibility? “…then you are inevitably going to stray from reality…” It may be more probable that you will stray from reality, but inevitable? Why inevitable? “Either free will is a thing or not. Your need to have a moral philosophy doesn't have anything to do with how nature works.” Yup, I agree with this. Not sure why you said it in response to me.