that's actually a pretty good camera for the dark ages

"It's not the guy you're looking at who gets you" is that how they came up with pawns in chess, I wonder?

@DJMavis

8 жыл бұрын

+Josh Adams Genuinely interesting point!

@mrrhombus716

8 жыл бұрын

+Josh Adams Absolutely genius.

@vivekbarnvasynanndi3439

8 жыл бұрын

+Josh Adams HOLY SHIT, THANK YOU i have wondered that all my life

@brevyansingollo1411

8 жыл бұрын

the horse's flank movimentation too, similar to the cavalry use i think

@hellboy6507

8 жыл бұрын

I still can't figure out the rooks, or the bishops, or the fact that the queen is the most powerful piece.

Reenactment with commentary and analysis..we need more of this!

Brown cap guy is kind of a badass.

@adamfrisk956

4 жыл бұрын

Which one?

@wtw1427

3 жыл бұрын

@@adamfrisk956 the one wearing the brown cap

This would be a much more interesting sport to watch than cross country skiing and whatnot else is on the telly nowadays.

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

junoguten I'm in reenactment myself and I honestly cannot understand why it's not a huge sport. Like, it's just fun. And historical. And educational. And just .. yeah. Battles are cool - riding a bike fast, or whatever, isn't. Or not at least in my eyes haha (facebook.com/VanguardReenactment)

@junoguten

9 жыл бұрын

Danny Vasey Yeah this seems a lot more exciting.

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

+junoguten I'd recommend getting into it! What area are you from? I may be able to recommend some societies if you're from England.

@junoguten

9 жыл бұрын

Danny Vasey Norway. What's it like?

@impersonal6959

9 жыл бұрын

junoguten Most def, it'd be the only reason I would even own a television too.

This kind of medieval action looks so much less fancy and somewhat silly compared to the Hollywood iterations. But it's so much more interesting to watch *_*

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

Pwntard The group I'm in very much take that into account - at the end of the day reenactment events are only going to be put on really if the crowd enjoys them. So we're trained to sort of .. "big swings" and whatnot (though given we train every Sunday for several hours it's not as dangerous as you'd expect) (facebook.com/VanguardReenactment)

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

Yes! Exactly that! Especially in the larger events/battles they won't be able to see much other than over-the-head swings - yet annoyingly, many groups don't require big swings, and they don't do head shots, so it keeps everything out the sight of the public.

@tSp289

8 жыл бұрын

+Danny Vasey I think it'd be more interesting to get some camera drones up and have a commentator. Of course, that requires a budget.

@DJMavis

8 жыл бұрын

+tSp289 Damn Murray Walker for dying. "Aaaaand they're off, and it looks like the Mercians have taken an early lead, the left flank of Wessex is falling to pieces".

@mertarican5456

5 жыл бұрын

Because you feel the competiton danger suprise

I genuinely think we miss something by not studying these medieval combats as they really existed. Then, that's a lot of things we miss. A few years ago, the History Channel kicked off a sort of reality show/sports competition called Full Metal Jousting. In it, instead of re-creating a choreographed joust the way it is done for movies, they set up a true tournament with relatively true period replicas and rules. About the only modern additions were safety improvements (things like catches to keep helms from snapping necks and the like. What they found was that jousting was INSANELY brutal. We don't really quite understand how dangerous and punishing it was to the participants until you see what it's like for someone, even in full armor with the lance aimed at a target on his shoulder, to take a lance at full gallop. Being "unseated" sounds a lot less visibly shocking than it is when you see it happen in real contact than the soft fall a stuntman might use. Injuries to competitors were common, with defeated competitors making it back into the tournament when even winners might not be able to continue. I highly recommend watching it. Like I said, it wasn't 100% accurate, but it did its best without being as likely deadly. You'll have a lot more respect for this jousting stuff you hear about after watching it.

@Karanthaneos

6 жыл бұрын

That'd explain why was it considered so important. It was a high risk competition and only the bravest (and maybe even more stupid) ones would take a chance

Too bad there isnt a lot of people interested in that, I would love to see this bunch get to the hundreds of ""players""

@bigbrowntau

8 жыл бұрын

+HoboTango Medieval reenactment with wooden weapoons can get into the hundreds or even thousands per side. Put "pennsic war" into the search box here on Ewetube, or check out the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA).

@DaReaperZ

8 жыл бұрын

+Browntau Sounds pretty amazing. Would love to join in one of these.

@Marcai

8 жыл бұрын

+HoboTango I larp in England, it's kinda like this but with softer weapons and magic calls. We do have hundreds of players in battles though.

@scottmckay9049

8 жыл бұрын

There is some majors such as Largs in Scotland that get into the hundreds

@scottmckay9049

8 жыл бұрын

There was roman reenactors at Dumbarton castle in Scotland so id imagine so

Yes, forming a wedge with a total psycho at the point, and charging can work, but a steady line with a bit of depth to it will hold.

It's always fun to see how REAL battles actually where, every movie i've ever seen has been very inacurate

Extraordinarily interesting. Way better than any contemporary sport, I must say. I imagine it only gets more fun to watch the more you know what's going on, and commentators would actually have something interesting to say than "oh look he caught the ball!"

@demomanchaos It is difficult to run backwards over uncertain terrain faster than a foe can run forwards. So how did you use the back-slung shields? Did you parry with them by turning on the spot? A heavy blow against a slung shield would transfer a lot more punch to the man than a held shield, but I suppose you couldn't simulate that in re-enactment.

Good stuff, but I cant help feeling there is a moderate risk of a spear to the face, with possible loss of an eye. I would have to be VERY trusting of EVERYONE on the field to want to try this without a face visor.

@lindybeige

9 жыл бұрын

John C We trained for some while before being allowed into group fights. None of us lost an eye.

@armasaurusrex3158

9 жыл бұрын

Generally the people you train with are your friends, or at least acquaintance, and you all train together on a regular basis.

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

John C I know what you mean, I'm in a reenactment group myself and, though the battles with hundreds of people are the most fun - in my experience, I'm often cautious. As Lindy says in the description, each group has their own rules etc. so it's hard to put your faith in someone you don't know/is trained to a different style. This fighting would break several of my rules, but then again as Lindy said there were no injuries haha

@redmarshall6635

9 жыл бұрын

***** Yeah a friend of mine had a similar experience whilst we were doing a show in York. He was from .. Conquest, or something or other, and was used to like, well, 'wrestling' etc. whereas my group is entirely focussed on weapon-work.

@timothyheimbach3260

9 жыл бұрын

+Floki Fork Beard "American football kilt"?

Yes, we always had dagger as well for the same reason. Again, though, you seem to be writing of using a spear against a foe who has no shield. Spearing a man who has a shield in the thigh or gut in a duel is almost impossible.

This is my favorite video of yours. please make more of those!!!

I really like this! Minus the reasonable accommodations for safety, I suspect this is very much what an actual dark age battle looked like! Everyone is trying to use decent tactics and, most importantly, not die.

thats very fun to watch actually

We need more like this, video of fighting, and strategy, well done.

Wow, I haven't seen Super-8 in about 20 years. Nicely done.

Lindybeige thank you very much for uploading this amazing video. I learnt many things from your videos, from the things you say.

Film was fun to watch and your commentary was helpful and well done, as usual.

a great video in which there was some very useful lessons but not obvious at all to me. I wish you had some more of these films which illustrates just how these fights really happened in real life. I really enjoyed it many thanks to you Lloyd

@Gilmaris Usually one man starts it, and others back him up if they think he's picked the right moment. Sometimes the enemy reaction is so stiffen resolve and see the first man off, in which case there can be a reversal, but more often the enemy quails/falls back/panics. Usually the first man to charge is right.

Lloyd, this is tremendously interesting. Great reenactment, great video, great informative commentary. Well done, sir. My thanks to all your mates back in the day.

Northern England. The fight was in Borrowdale, in the Lake District.

@jabames The missile users have to retreat to avoid melee. A well-drilled shieldwall could advanced while keeping fairly well covered. At some point it will reach the objective (e.g. village) and the missile users will either have to melee or lose control of the objective.

That can work. By and large you'll see those with no shields on the flanks, yes. There they can use their mobility as a defence.

Love your videos. Always leave me thinking

Woah, okay wow, I really enjoyed watching this, I've always wondered what it actually looks like, and how people act.

This was awesome. More like this please - less questions stuff.

this is VERY informative!

this helped me in mount and blade lol

@JefersonCarvalho522

8 жыл бұрын

+Last Mohican ikr, his videos about cavalry helped me a lot on Total War game series xD

@victormai5182

8 жыл бұрын

***** well now i use spears actually as they should. not just as longer, more wooden swords

@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah that game punishes you for trying to be a hero. "I'm the chosen one!" *gets surrounded by 8 guys* "Back up back up, nuuuuuu" *stabbed*

Yes, we tried fights as deep as eight ranks in confined areas. Didn't work terribly well, largely because the absence of the factor of fear became laughable as people fought over a steadily growing pile of bodies. If you crouch as much as you suggest, you immobilise yourself, and you feel less safe, not more. Overlapping shields confine you even more, and give your foes the chance to pick their spot and mass where they choose.

@jacobrobinson5606

7 ай бұрын

from my own reenacting fined over lapping shields help for moving as a unit but once battle is joined you shake out of these exact reasons

wow this looked quite like a real battles! thx for commentary!

They should hire reenactors for movie battles

Enjoyed this, I would love to see more reinactments like this.

This is absolutely brilliant! You should bring back this genre (unless you haven't already)!

I'd love to see more videos of your re-enacting like this. :D

@Catachan1brainleaf You can hook shields with axes, which can be handy. Yes, the fighting style did not include massive swipes, but then such swipes are rather telegraphed.

At the 55 second mark you see what happens when you lose formation and there is a bulge in the line and those guys get cut down. in the movie 300 you saw Spartans make a big deal of fighting in a line and in the combat scenes they jump ahead and fight which is of course BS.

What was that in 3:19? T-Bagging?

@mr.dapper5386

8 жыл бұрын

+Lahbreca *teabagging

@spanishinquisition7623

8 жыл бұрын

Only the most effective strategies.

@CHIQUIZO

3 жыл бұрын

YES

I feel like if I joined one of these medieval re-enactments, I'd be that one guy who would give a heartfelt yet tragic monologue after getting stabbed. "Oh how upon these fields of golden sunshine are my efforts betrayed. Curse ye 'espoir'! O'er yonder had I just gleamed thee, but cruel fate has rent me from this passing.. and thus into the cold embrace of les mains de la mort, I shall fade.." **drops dramatically onto the ground**

@tomcat2222 Greater momentum downhill greatly increases your chances of stumbling, and stopping can be a problem. On the plus side it can be intimidating. The increased impact of the charge is only useful if you intend to use the added momentum to crash headlong into your foes - an act that will usually end in your rapid death.

@1212Jerichoman1212 If you have evidence for the contrary, do share.

An interesting thing about the head is that built-in instincts make it such that people get their heads out of the way of blows amazingly quickly. In a life-or-death one-on-one fight I'd be content that my opponent tried to spear me in the no-chance-of-fatality foot while I went for his chest. But yes, I agree that the rules of re-enactment make a difference.

"The Gauls were much hampered in action because a single spear often pierced more than one of their overlapping shields and pinned them together, and, as the iron bent, they could not pull it out. With their left arms thus encumbered it was impossible for them to fight properly, and many, after repeated attempts to pull their shields free, preferred to drop the shields altogether and fight unprotected." -Julius Caesar So it seems that the Celts fought in a close formation.

@lackadaisicale492

7 жыл бұрын

...and with leather shields? Can't imagine a javelin meant to have its tip bend or break off could punch through several layers of wood.

@Alignn

7 жыл бұрын

You mean pilums? I'm fairly sure the tip was hard and sharp; the softer part that bent was somewhere further back. I want to say just between the head and the shaft, but I don't actually know that much about them.

@Usammityduzntafraidofanythin

6 жыл бұрын

Cmon dude, what are you saying, the ancient greeks totally invented tight formation line tactics. Everyone else were just posers. It wasn't like the sumerians had heavy infantry or anything. (they did)

...And that hill was just begging for some archers or javelin-men on top. To advance up a slope against missile fire is... not fun. Also, I'm surprised there was no charge down the hill by the defending side there (3:50), as they could probably have just pushed the spearmen back down the slope like so many bowling pins. Still... Safety first, I suppose.

In 1:08 there is a guy in red in the background who draws a sword and a couple of moments later he does a pretty hilarious death performance. Was that you Lloyd?

@paununs8719

9 жыл бұрын

YenzQu I think he's the guy wearing a blue shirt.

@griflet1

8 жыл бұрын

Pau Nuns wasn't Lloyd filming

@paununs8719

8 жыл бұрын

***** Hmm he never said that.

@DJMavis

8 жыл бұрын

+Pau Nuns "I ran out of film before the battle ends" he says at the end.

@paununs8719

8 жыл бұрын

mavis cruet Fair enough.

I agree. I'd say that matters of morale would have a greater role to play with more men, and numbers would matter less. In re-enactments, where people have no fear of death, casualty rates in big battles tend to be unrealistically high.

WE WANT MORE!!! Seriosly I liked it!

You're at somewhat of an impasse to the man in front of you, but are vulnerable diagonally, like a pawn in chess? Or am I reading too much into it?

@alisilcox6036

8 жыл бұрын

From what I gather, that's true often. So more often than not, you try to lock your opponent and allow a fellow to attack him.

@secularnevrosis

7 жыл бұрын

Yup. Tunnel vision = spear in the groin. A good cup is your best friend.

@TheCsel

6 жыл бұрын

I couldn't find any reason as to why the pawn attacks diagonally. but as the the pawns historically are seen as footmen with spears or pikes, I think the concept of a shield wall where they cover each other would be a possible correlation. Chess in its Indian roots, the pawns were also infantry who attacked diagonally, and almost definitely were considered a rank of spearmen.

@Beledagnir

6 жыл бұрын

Seems about right to me.

What I will say is that these gentlemen are terrific fighters, almost completely unarmoured fighting with spears and shields and side arms. Very impressive group spear work.

THANK YOU!! I always wondered what medieval combat might have looked like, Now if I could find a good example of mounted combat doing against each other and foot soldiers

@fsbritney This was a few groups. One (mine) - The Arthurian Society, later The English Settlement Society, later the North East Anglo-Saxon Re-enactment Society - I know no longer exists. Another that I think is still going was Regia Anglorum.

Excellent, very insightful.

Yes, you could hit with a shield edge, but more to move your foe into a position to hit with something else than a finishing technique in itself. The edge is hard, and very strong. They would often have spiked ferrules, yes, but these would not be very useful in the role you suggest for them.

I guess there might actually be some sense in pawns of chess... they're like the spearman, frontally they're at an impasse, but diagonally they can do their work

This was a few groups. One (mine) - The Arthurian Society, later The English Settlement Society, later the North East Anglo-Saxon Re-enactment Society - I know no longer exists. Another that I think is still going was Regia Anglorum.

That's why I was careful to write "almost". The thing is, if something is difficult and an opponent has an option that is easy, then you are unwise to adopt the tactic. If you will probably die doing X, don't do X.

@MithraisAugustus I doubt that what we see here is so very different from hoplite tactics, especially with these few numbers.

@lebarosky I don't think we have reason to believe that whole units of these men used axes solely. A big axe is a good shield splitter, so a few brave men in one part of the line might be able to make a breach...

@NoFaithNoPain The Roman kit is not suited to duelling. Caesar says this in his Gallic Wars.

This looks like so much fun!

I'm not sure if this question is being asked of me or of another. The re-enactors are using the spear underarm because it works better. It is my belief that this was the usual way they were used in real fights.

Why don't they show this on TV. It's so much better than football and still less staged than wrestling.

@olelumpy Don't you all then balance on the logs and race downstream in checked shirts?

Hey, this looks like great fun.

Gave me chills.

Yes, it was stark statement, and I believe the listener can tell that it is of course possible to live. I stick to my guns, though, but clarify that the spearman was caught alone by a swordsman _with a shield_. Do you win half the time against people with shields in one-on-one? Link away.

This was excellant, I thought that you editted a modern recording but you genuinelly recorded this on 8mm film? Incredible! :D I had a friend who used to do Viking re-enactment, this looks about the same.

Nothing from this period. Later modern standing armies have drill books, and there are books sold to rich Renaissance men on how to defend themselves personally, but there's nothing on how a shieldwall fought.

That's right. Nor hands/wrists, shins and knees.

Great fighting!

A quite instructive demonstration, especially as I've never participated in group fencing/arms use. Group coordination is important and the idea of charging and smashing is dispelled. Amazing how quickly battle can turn with the loss of a few key men or flanking maneuvers.

This is a great watch! You should do something like this again. :D As a patreon i would love to help out.

No one can answer this one with specific measurements. Battles often consisted of many hours or even days of waiting around, and then perhaps minutes or hours of fighting. Most men most of the time were doing nothing.

That was pretty awesome, i wouldn't mind seeing that in action

Yes Interesting to see that after all these years, I was quite young then and agile, now I am just more experienced and slower. Great stuff, wish you had more of it and of course more of me! Col Rab Richards

"It's not the guy you're looking at who gets you" Jurassic park Velociraptors?

Padding? Padding? What would that be for?

LOL is that teabagging going on @ 3:18

@greventlv

5 жыл бұрын

LOL

No, I haven't tried pike formations. Re-enactors of pike and shot period (English Civil War etc.) periods have pike blocks, but they don't really fight properly. When two pike blocks clash, either both sides have to raise pikes and start shoving, or else everybody dies. This tells us nothing of pike formations of the ancient world. Bear in mind, though, that pikes were not intended to fight other pikes.

@TheKittu Politeness and consideration.

@megashuttlecock Fairly old - 1990s I think.

Gee, I wonder who the kid with the long hair kicking ass was? :) A group of around 30 of us would do this kind of thing when we were kids with foam swords, axes, spears, shields, and arrows. We had something we called "charge battles" where we would line up and run into the enemy formation. This is where I discovered my love of the proper battle axe, about the size of a hatchet. After charging through the line, it was much easier to cleave into someones back with an axe than a sword. Nice vid.

I like how they shot it with a really old camera without audio for the sake of historical accuracy. I believe those were the only kind of cameras that they had back in the dark ages. You know, before they invented microphones and better colour etc.

lovely!

That was pretty awesome.

This is actually quite a revelation to me. I had assumed that a spear's length would give it an advantage over shorter weapons in any context where you had enough room to use it. Of course it now makes sense that a spear's effectiveness swiftly disappears when you don't have people on either side of you to stop your opponents slipping past your point.

@JanPospisilArt

9 жыл бұрын

An issue with a reenactment of this kind is that they often have rules. Like, only pokes with a spear are lethal. How hard does the poke have to be? You can see it can be very soft and light here. In reality, a spear does have a significant advantage in its reach. Slipping "past the point" is not nearly as simple or instawin as depicted here. There are techniques that deal with fighting with a spear in close range too.

@actionturnip395

9 жыл бұрын

I can't pretend to know what I'm talking about, but my impression is that a man armed only with a spear could easily be charged by someone with a shield, regardless of their weapon. I would think that the shorter weapon alone doesn't offer much advantage unless you're in tight quarters.

@JanPospisilArt

9 жыл бұрын

ActionTurnip Charging is not a great idea, almost ever. If you're experienced, with a big shield, maybe you could push the tip away for a bit, but that doesn't mean the spearman will leave it there. There are videos on youtube of people sparring with sword and buckler against a spear, so maybe take a look at those? Example: Spear vs Sword and Buckler Nick vs Mike Sparring

@twatmang1

9 жыл бұрын

But, once you move into close combat it stops being a spear and becomes a stave, which could be very useful.

@StephenandVH

9 жыл бұрын

In the video the spear in use is too long to be used as a stave. Shorter style spears (max 25% taller than user) are still effective. Had the spear man not been caught off guard there is a chance he could still be in the fight, though he would have been at best buying time with his spear being too long to ever hope to get a chance to kill the swordsman. However the training required to allow a \spear to face a sword in close quarters is far more than throwing the weapon in a peasants' hands... In context I agree with the commentator however I disagree with it being absolute. These spears shown are formation weapons. Though there are staff weapons (spears/axes) not so inefficient in a melee.

@ShowYourWorking Not many, in the dark ages.

Please more of this!!!

LINDY, YOU SHOULD PUBLICISE THE RE-ENACTMENTS YOU PLAN TO ATTEND BECAUSE IMAGINE HOW MANY MORE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WOULD SHOW UP!!!!!!111!onewonwan

@FaakedLillebror Perfectly authentic for Saxons.

@lindybeige i must say quite an interesting feat of history, it minds me a great deal of the Galatians they just... went the other way... you should make a video about the Celtic Mercenaries in Egypt :D

I love your way to describe thigs. you should expand this :) i subbed

Epicity costs more. I asked.

A sweep with a spear to the ankle might hurt a bit, but a stab to the face with a sword is fatal. Your sweep has to do such injury to him that he cannot stab you a quarter of a second later..

Very Beige! Which is the word I'm now using for "cool"

I would love to be involved in something like this. It seems like an excellent learning experience, and loads of fun, besides.

I take your point, but I'd say they'd learn about the way chess was played, because they are human, and they know that humans played it, with human brains. They also know the rules, so they would be able to work out what tactics worked, and it would be reasonable to conclude that people were intelligent, and if certain tactics worked, they would use them. But yes, re-enactment is not a flawless way to study infantry tactics. I prefer it to the alternatives, though.