The red boxes at the beginning are a rendering error telling you that you can listen to the audio version of this video on Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Google Podcast. Links Below. Be sure to let us know what other topics (or even other wincons if you would like a part2 2) you would like to see discussed! *Table of Contents:* 1:40 - Demonic Consultation 7:35 - Flash Hulk 14:10 - Food Chain 20:55 - Kiki Jiki & Splinter Twin 27:50 - Worldgorger Dragon Listen on Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/0WKOn0J1qT2L13gz5ByrjK Listen on Apple Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-cedh/id1498990819 Listen on Google Podcast: www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5jYXB0aXZhdGUuZm0vdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZy1jZWRoLw%3D%3D

@CasuallyCompetitiveMTG

4 жыл бұрын

@@embermk6264 According to the Gatherer page for Torpor Orb it should stop a card's own EtB Trigger. From the first rules note for Torpor Orb: "Torpor Orb stops a creature’s own enters-the-battlefield triggered abilities as well as other triggered abilities that would trigger when a creature enters the battlefield."

@TheNeoDaedalus

4 жыл бұрын

Great video, I think Dramatic Scepter combo should be here as well. Especially since these can work with a whole plethora of commanders (more than food chain), is fairly commonly used as a back-up, since its own pieces are good in general and it's a budget option, so new players should be aware of this.

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

Cant wait for gitrog, thats a video all to it's self

@GarrettParker757

4 жыл бұрын

@@lolimmune AllLllll

@GarrettParker757

4 жыл бұрын

P@@TheNeoDaedalus

How demonic consultation was designed: It's a 1 mana Tutor with a downside How it's used: 1 mana exil my library

@frago321

4 жыл бұрын

Hermit Druid

@bakasamacollects2054

4 жыл бұрын

Unless u go for foodchain

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

I have certainly used it as a tutor cuz sometimes thats a thing you gotta do.

@brendans1983

3 жыл бұрын

Makes ya laugh how they've exploited 'crap' cards from the 90's 🤣

Most glorious way of stopping Kiki-Jiki/Splinter Twin combos (except the one involving Goblin Sharpshooter): Rakdos Charm. :D

@emilysmith2965

2 жыл бұрын

So beautiful

Thank you for neatly explaining these common win-cons! I feel like I finally understand food chain!

Thassas oracle and demonic consultation: well u can stop it by preventing enter the field triggers, or countering, or tax effects, or making the opponent draw before the oracle triggers. Flash hulk: well u can stop it by preventing enter the field triggers, or countering, or tax effects, or making the opponent draw before the oracle

How to stop them: play blue. Just wanted to summarize it in case anyone didn't have time to watch. :p

Add in hushwing gryff and tocatli honor guard for more etb hate, etb hate seems really good right now!

@lolimmune

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed

I literally just uploaded a video in which I said "I’ll probably make a video all about the different combos that are worth looking at in EDH and when I do I’ll link to it here" but, seeing as your video actually exists and mine doesn't, I'll definitely be linking to your video! Great video, thanks for making it :)

Great video. Can't wait for the second part to this ongoing series.

This was my comment from the color pie primer! This is perfect! Thanks for listening to the fans :D

Please make more of this series! I just started getting into cedh and this video has been really helpful!

Explain the gitrog for us so I know how to win with my deck every time I play cedh instead of hard casting my kozilek

@PiroMunkie

4 жыл бұрын

If your playgroup is the kind that will force you to play out your combos, Gitrog probably isn't the best deck to pilot. However if they're okay with shortcutting loops after they've been demonstrated (and short-cutting loops is well within the rules of MTG), here's the basics. Gamestate Required: Gitrog and a free discard outlet in play. Dakmor Salvage in hand (OR) Dakmor Salvage in the graveyard and a land in hand. The basis of the combo is as follows: Step 1: Discard Dakmor Salvage/the land. // Gitrog's card draw trigger goes on the stack. Step 2: Dredge Dakmor Salvage instead of drawing. // If you dredge over 1 or more lands, another Gitrog draw trigger goes on the stack. Step 3: Repeat. Eventually you'll dredge over your Kozilek which will shuffle your graveyard back into your library allowing you to go on forever. What you'll end up with is "infinite" card draw triggers from dredging lands into your graveyard. While the number of triggers per reshuffle will vary depending on where Kozilek ends up in the library, this is a loop that you should be able to shortcut by saying "I want to repeat this until I have [an arbitrarily large number of] draw triggers on the stack." Once you've built up an arbitrarily large number of these triggers, continue with the following loop: Step 1: Resolve card draw triggers until you find Lotus Petal and/or Dark Ritual. Step 2: Cast Lotus Petal and/or Dark Ritual (and sac the Petal for mana) Step 3.a: If you have Kozilek in hand, discard it to reshuffle the Petal/Ritual back into your library. Step 3.b: If you didn't draw Kozilek, repeat the first section of the combo until you do which will shuffle the Petal/Ritual back into your library. Step 4: Repeat. This gives you infinite mana. You can shortcut this by saying "I want to repeat this until I've generated [arbitrarily large number of] [color(s)] mana." Then once you have infinite mana, you resolve enough card draw triggers to find whatever you want to end the game assuming you haven't already drawn it.

Hvis video is gold! As a noob to cedh, this helps me understand the combos and what cards are key pieces! Thank you so much and please moar of this!

I believe this has been the ebst video ive ever seen related to magic. well worded, steady worded, well organized, well edited. awesome in every single regard. glad to subscribe and check out more. you and whomever else on the team rock and do good hard work on behalf of the magic community. always a pleasure.

Finding this video 2 years later has got to be the coolest instance of awesome in the cEDH universe.

For the Kiki/Twin combo line something I’ve found out is that most of the bottom combo pieces have 1 power or deal 1 damage (gob sharpshooter), and something like a Soul Warden or a Auriok Champion can essentially counteract the 1 dmg pings/hits, resulting in 0 change in your life total. These are not exactly hate pieces but they are cards with effective interactions against this specific combo.

@WhiteWizard42

4 жыл бұрын

Illness in the Ranks (Creature tokens get -1/-1) was used in Modern to fight Twin because it nullified both Deceiver Exarch and Pestermite tokens.

@InfinityRift7

4 жыл бұрын

WhiteWizard42 That is also an effective way to stop the combat damage.

I can't wait for the Combo Video. I love the Gitrog Monster myself

Against foodchain: try krosan grip. Its ligthly played so not that many will expect a splitsecond removal

@goldilock4199

4 жыл бұрын

I thought krosan grip was widely used, is it not?

@jakefitzsimons1811

4 жыл бұрын

@@goldilock4199 Not in cEDH. Three mana for interaction is a hefty price, it's rarely run.

@Cryxboy

4 жыл бұрын

Jake FitzSimons it’s 3 mana because it’s near impossible to interact with

@nharviala

4 жыл бұрын

Plus, they can still do Food Chain activations in response, since it's a mana ability and gets around Split Second. Removing it just means they have to pick it back up with something like Noxious Revival.

@tobiasschmidt8487

4 жыл бұрын

@@nharviala jea true. But if you wanna go off you cant since casting a creature doesnt get around it. It at least interrupts them. And you can interact with something like revival

Great informative video for people trying to get into and understand the format. Seems like you guys are doing a great deal to promote the format to people that are scared or confused by all the competitive plays. Btw with stifle and trickbind(or nimble obstructionist) you could also counter the wgd leaves the battlefield trigger so as to leave the permanents exiled. I really like nimble obstructionist because it’s almost like trickbind in the sense it’s really difficult to counter as it’s an ability not a cast but it also basically replaces itself for the extra mana.

you can use flash to pull out oracle making it an instant speed game, and it drops the mana specifics a little.

One of the hardest things for me to do in EDH is to close out games, so I would love to see another vid on the less played/powerful wincons. Great vid! I'm not a cEDH player but all the same this has given me lots to think about. :)

This video just taught me sooooo much, I appreciate it!

Super informative, nicely edited! Awesome video

Commander spellbook is amazing and so are you (both for your videos and letting me know it exists)! :)

Thanks for this video, super useful ❤️ I was very wary about the DC /TO combo, but I think I will use it now ❤️

These were great. Keen for more definitely. Specifically I'd be in to see Krarkashima lines gone over.

I'd love to see some tier 2 or 3 combos in a future video. Anything spicy or off the beaten path would be fun to learn and try

Really hoping for the next in this series!

Such a good idea for a video! Thanks dudes.

Fantastic video! Thank you very much!

Just found another one last night when playing. Kykar, Wind's Fury + Sensei's Diving Top + Mystic Forge/Elsha.

Hyrax Tower Scout is a new Kiki Jiki/Spliter Twin target. My Grumgully deck has it and it always catches my opponents by surprise.

@emilysmith2965

2 жыл бұрын

Ooo good one

For the WGD combo I like to use lands as finishers. Sunscorched Desert to ping an opponent everytime it enters the battlefield or if you have a Silence type effect/tapped out opponents and an Eldrazi Titan in deck, Geier Reach Sanitarium to mill your opponents

Would love to see the commander specific episode you mentioned in the beginning of the video, I’d love your breakdown for it

Great breakdown! One thing I'll mention is that you can have creatures before food chain. It is an enchantment but the way you phrased it makes it sound like you need the chain first. You don't...

Meddling Mage effects and Sanctum Prelate also stop a good number of these if you know what to name based on their commander. Nice video, very helpful to newer cedh players.

I want a part 2,3,4,5 just give me some good content like this

AWESOME video! Got me to sub. Love the educational content.

really nice, I liked the part about the interactions. can you also do this for stuff like adnas/Angels grace and dramatic/scepter? Keep going on!

Trick bind would be better used on the leaves play trigger of the worldgorger dragon. Works just like a removal spell.

Instant speed board wipes / fogs also deter any combo that win from combat damage like Kiki Jiki.

Need an updated version of this

I would love to see both of those new videos you mentioned at the end. I do have a personal request, discussing how to recover in a combo deck if your combo pieces are permanently removed, such as if I was playing Elsha Top, and my Sensei’s Divining Top gets exiled somehow, how could I recover?

A mono green commander that works with food chain is Titania. You also need command beacon. How it works is you sacrifice Titania to Food Chain, then bring her back to your hand with Command Beacon. You can then cast her with the mana floating like normal. When she enters the battle field you bring back Command Beacon from the graveyard and then do the steps all over again. It's not as good as some of the others that use other colours but it does work by itself. You either make all of the 5/3 elementals with some kind of haste enabler like Crossroads or Akroma's Memorial or you use the floating mana for multi-kick creatures like Wolf Brier Elemental or even 'just' cast big creatures like the eldrazis.

It’s hard to believe how much hype Thassa’s Oracle is getting, it just came out!

@steveng6721

4 жыл бұрын

Its what happens when unbalanced cards get printed

I really enjoyed the content. Great explanations of the different combos. That being said, the phrase "that being said" is used a lot. Might be worth hitting that with a counterspell in the editing process. :)

I don't even play commander but I learned so much

Notion Thief will backfire against card-drawing commanders unless the Thief's controller has other answers available, as the Food Chain player can simply keep casting the commander until the Notion Thief player gets decked out.

Hi there I just wanted you to know that “time stop” it’s a great way to stop combos too.

A card that always messes up my Flash Hulk deck, Rest In Peace. My friend plays a very competitive Zur edh deck, and rest in peace completely negates the death/search effect of Hulk.

Who wouldn't want to be topped by Kiki-Jiki

If you have any utility lands that cam be abused because of them coming into play untapped also works well with the Worldgorger combo. Shivan Gorge and Stensia Bloodhall are lands that gives you repeatable damage once you have the combo going.

More of these vids please

And yes please! more vids !

Stifle and Trickbind actually stop the WorldGorger combo as well. The trigger for Worldgorger leaving is also stifleable, which will leave them with nothing coming back and a Worldgorger in their graveyard. Honestly, for the utility that Stifle and Trickbind have, it's kind of surprising how rarely I see them in games.

@24:47 minor caveat I would say is that with base situation goblin A with twin, and B and C tokens, whichever sharpshooter you tap, tap it targetting itself. Note SS says target creature or player. Why this matters is you can stack infinite untaps on the other token, with an untapped sharpshooter. Thus if someone attempts to interfere, you can just as easily go off in response. It shouldn't get to this state, but you never know in edh if something thinks they're gonna "get ya"

Nice video !

Graveyard replacement effects also stop Flash Hulk (Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, & Planar Void)- also, Hushbringer does stop Splinter Twin + Goblin Sharpshooter lines, since the untap trigger is turned off due to it being a "dies" trigger

For consultation I like putting cards in the deck in response to the etb but after they exile the deck. Like memory's Journey.

Nice video. Id like to see what Underworld Breach combos are win cons

Short answer: counterspells, stax pieces, and the occasional hate-bear that stops etbs

I would love to see The Gitrog Monster combo lines explained. No one at my LGS plays him and I have always been confused as to how the deck wins.

Splinter Twin will also work with Midnight Gaurd as well.

Worldgorger dragon combo- make sure you are using something like kroxa as your commander , if you are using kroxa you have a source to dump all your mana into

I play Crystal shard + emrakul the promised end as a win condition in my Sen Triplets deck which I recently mentioned in a video. But it's in german

Mono colored win cons would be cool. Maybe Worldgorger Dragon copy effect in red?

Not going to lie, I think my favorite part is the worldgorger counters. They try to play their combo and you basically exile their board. Pretty sure instant scooping and some laughs occur. I know if this happened in my playgroup everyone would be wide eyed and laughing

Seems like stifle effects are really good right now, especially with the upside of stifling thassa's Oracle to just kill them. The problem I think, is that flash hulk can happen at basically any time, as well as having veil of summer and silence, which makes me lean towards torpor orb and tocatli honor guard effects

@Ottamus_Prime

4 жыл бұрын

The problem with trickbind and stifle if you aren’t using them against the hulk trigger you’ll get blown out if they know you are on that tech and pile around it

as this video was more than a year ago...there are now two mono green commanders that works well with Food Chain and those are: Thrasta, Tempest's Roar Aeve, Progenitor Ooze

a flash hulk instant reaction could be something like hallowed moonlight. like that's a really good card for whites interaction to this combo

When you listed tap effects, maybe mentioning Kismet would have been good.

2:06 Thassa's Oracle allows the _MOST_ amount of interaction since it doesn't only fall prey to the usual counterspells but also to stifle effects, which neither of the other allow. Neither does it work when ETB disablers are present. It also straight up loses to any unsummon or removal type effect. It's not better because it allows the least amount of interaction. It's better because you don't have to draw a card.

@AbyssArray

4 жыл бұрын

Would that really work though? Say they choose to name a card that's not in their deck (Mountain in UB for example): * their library gets milled * you bounce Thassa's Oracle * the ETB would resolve for X = 0, which is still greater than or **equal** to the number of cards in the library (0) * they win the game still I could be wrong about it, but that's what computer logic tells me

@Psyman2

4 жыл бұрын

@@AbyssArray Pardon, you are correct. A recent ruling confirmed this.

Worldgorger can also win immediately without a mana sink, there’s Valakut and a Desert that can do direct damage with just re entering, there’s also impact tremors type effects; so if you have something of that already on the battlefield there’s no need to use something like that

If you play flash hulk you can add grand abolisher to fetch with hulk. Makes it so that your opponents can't react after hulks death tigger have been resolved. just remember to add dread return so you can reanimate thassa's oracle after you mill your library .

Would love an update to this!

Thank you for breaking down the combos, they were explained very well. But I couldn't help thinking i wish there were lesser known answers discussed for each color instead of just bringing up counterspells repeatedly (and a smattering of hatebears.) This just makes me think i should play blue or just expect to lose the game. For example, I noticed the humble Lightning Bolt kills many of those creature combo pieces, so maybe while its underpowered in general, it seems effective given this kind of meta.

@TheShmyt

4 жыл бұрын

Bolt is useful (cEDH usually prefers swords to plowshares to be less conditional on toughness), but some things don't get stopped. Thassa's Oracle is a triggered ability so the creature being dead doesn't stop it since the wording is "less than or equal to your devotion to blue" this means that empty library and empty board is still a win. Many of the combos can go overtop your interaction by continuing in response to removal and letting your spell fizzle if it isn't in the same specific windows. The other issue is most of the decks using these combos do just play blue so they will try to answer your responses. Flash usually happens overtop of someone's Necromancy or Ad Nauseum or other Flash, or in response to the triggers from someone else's win attempt once everyone tapped out trying to stop it.

@jameslabbe4119

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheShmyt StP is hands down a better 1cmc removal, I'm just trying to figure out what fills that slot in Gruul. Pyroblast? I feel like I'm just in the corner of a room filled with people yelling "In response I...!" as I clutch my timmy cards and mumble "Nonblue decks are fun too"

@TheShmyt

4 жыл бұрын

@@jameslabbe4119 pyro and reb are pretty decent, there's also guttural response, but the best Gruul one I've seen for fighting on the stack is Vexing Shusher. It costs you no cards while blue has to keep throwing them out, only costs you one mana per counter spell you make useless and you can respond to any spell with it to back up someone else stopping a win.

Titania Protector of Argoth+ food chain+ command beacon for mono green food chain deck. I know it isn’t super cedh but it’s very strong. It’s my main deck! Lol would be cool to see other opinions on it!

I used a praetors grasp to pull WGD out of my opponents deck and just left it in exile :)

Stifle when world gorger leave the battlefield trigger also works to take them out

Another big category of hate for Flash/Hulk is static graveyard exiling, like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, or Anafenza the Foremost. Since these prevent 'dies' triggers, the Hulk won't fetch anything.

Rakdos charm. Play it for graveyard hate, and accidently hate on the kiki combo at the same time.

6:02 dont the cards at 5:40 do this since you can stifle thassas after they play consultation or does it not work like that?

hushwing prevents triggered abilities from creatures dying, not leaving the battlefield.

The best counter to flash hulk was the ban hammer 👌.

Another combo with worldgorger dragon that doesnt require infinite mana is with altar of the brood or if kroxa is already in play

@copperfield42

4 жыл бұрын

Also Gary, drain everybody and gain life too

@Cryxboy

4 жыл бұрын

You can do it turn 2 if your first land is the desert land that pings for 1 damage

@Pyoromo

4 жыл бұрын

Sunscorched desert, valakut molten pinnacle, shivan gorge are good ones that takes land slots and can be included in any deck that contains red.

I really like this series so far. Isochron scepter /dramatic reversal ? Any rings of brightheart combo ?

@samsplace1470

4 жыл бұрын

Stay tuned for part two!

Chulane is also really good with food chain

Im interested in a broader wincon vid also

For the Worldgorger combo I like to play Piranha Marsh to drain opponents out of the game

More please

I am a bit surprised that the flash hulk pile of nomads, illusionist, grand abolisher and hapless researcher didn't come up. While this needs you to be playing both narcameba and dread return along side your lab man it does prevent most options that aren't already on board once the hulk death trigger goes through.

Honestly I think the best support color for food chain is red just because squee is so much better then the other two options just because he can be cast from the graveyard incase he gets milled/discarded/countered

@swolegolisopod7340

4 жыл бұрын

I would argue blue since it has effects that let you exile things from your deck to tutor up your CFE creature and grants more access to conbo protection with counterspells

Titania + Command Beacon + Food Chain allows for infinite elementals

commenting on casually competitive vids until they come back. day one

I'm surprised that exile effects for hulk wasn't mentioned. I've messed some combos up from swords to plowshares or path to exile on a hulk! But the other methods are definitely more common

@Zzectbu

4 жыл бұрын

Most likely, the reason that wasn't mentioned is because it's exceptionally rare to have the opportunity to exile the Hulk with a Swords or similar when dealing with top-tier cEDH Flash Hulk decks. The way Flash works, the Hulk is put onto the battlefield and then dies all during the resolution of Flash. Players do not get priority until the Hulk is in the graveyard with its death trigger on the stack. In the very odd situation of a hard-cast Protean Hulk with no sac outlet, exiling it works, but that's not something that happens very often.

Don't notion thief an enemy who has food chain combo with uro unless you have a way to stop them from making you draw your entire library, notion thief is not a may ability

vexing shusher is a great card to prevent counter spells

It’s weird but a really funny way to stop Kiki Jiki can be mesmeric orb and something like mandate of peace unless they have something like zulaport cutthroat and a sac outlet

Stifle everything. Got it

You can also Mimic Vat the Worldgorger Dragon