Tell me about your church experiences! Have any of these tactics worked on you? If so, how did you come to realize what was really going on?

@JesusUnfollower

3 жыл бұрын

Sadly, I didn’t realize until after I left Christianity. Now, it’s so easy to see. Thanks for this much needed video!

@ojrmk1

3 жыл бұрын

Catholic mass in the UK was mind crushingly dull in the UK. Went a few times with my very Catholic Irish grandparents.

@Kevin-cy2dr

3 жыл бұрын

The music always gets me man

@KomodoMagic

3 жыл бұрын

I didn’t go to church that much when I was religious so I don’t remember

@lumbratile4174

3 жыл бұрын

I had no idea there are rites like that.... I was a Catholic (Italian) but here mess is completely different, even if there is music for like the gaps between different moments...

I remember being a teenager and feeling guilty for not crying or having an “emotional enough” response in a church service.

@kumaaraanderson234

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I share this experience. Or being in a charismatic gathering and believing that there is something wrong when I wasn't entering a trance and falling over...

@aliensoup2420

3 жыл бұрын

I once belonged to a strict fundamentalist church that forbade any musical instruments and sang hymns acapella only. I didn't even like singing, but endured it because it was a scriptural edict. I was there mainly for the intellectual exercise, but eventually even that fell apart - for obvious reasons. One of the "elder" women of the congregation once privately confessed that she felt jealous of the charismatic churches because they spoke in tongues and had these emotional experiences. She knew it was scripturally wrong, but she still craved it. I think she desired some form of spiritual validation besides pure intellectual understanding.

@murrayshevlin7289

3 жыл бұрын

@@aliensoup2420 I got a question because I was mad because my teacher said that creationism is just a opinion so I asked one my teachers and said I hate when people confuse opinions with facts like when people say the sky is blue because of reflection or because of light from molecules and I said which one is right is it the opinion because I think one is a fact then the teacher said is a dog a dog then argued that dogs aren't real there for it's not a fact.

@lucasmonteiro129

3 жыл бұрын

More traditional christian movements, such as traditionalist catholics, actually discourage this type of sentimentalism. Devotion can manifest in many forms, but it is always taught that you need to be careful not to fall into a purely emotional faith.

@ddjsoyenby

3 жыл бұрын

i remember thinking there was something wrong with me for doubting that i was bad.

As an avid concert goer, I can tell you, you can get this "emotionally charged spiritual high" at any music event. Does that mean God is with me at the Goatwhore show??

@exodusn2233

3 жыл бұрын

Amazing. Best comment here.

@harperbird1034

3 жыл бұрын

The church tries to convince you that normal psychological experiences are 'god' or 'the holy spirit' speaking to you. That 'still small voice', that feeling you get, is not god, but how a normal human brain works. When I was leaving the church and would feel doubts about the existence of god, and then feel bad about it, I was convinced it was the holy spirit convicting me, because I was taught that 'feeling' was the holy spirit, not my mind battling the indoctrination I had been exposed to since a child, trying to cope with cognitive dissonance. I thought the further I got away from the church and my belief in god, the more those feelings would go away, but I realized this feeling was not god, and it was normal for the human mind to think this way, and I learned to not associate it with 'god' or 'the holy spirit', but to just try to understand how I was actually feeling without god being in the mix.

@SkoomaCat

3 жыл бұрын

@CrashMan27 lol obviously. He supposedly is everywhere all the time.

@lloydtucker5647

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent point. _"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."_ God can only prove himsef in ways that can't be imitated nor duplicated by people. I'm not saying there is no God, I simply don't know. However, the God invented by evangelical churchianity aint it.

@leondequadros

3 жыл бұрын

I'd love to think God is there at every cannibal corpse/lamb of God show and participating in the mosh pit.

This was me during church, I was wondering why people were putting their arms in the air, crying, and a lot of staring. I had autism at the time and wasn't diagnosed, so I plugged my ears in because of the loud noises, even sneaking off to the bathroom to escape the service. One day someone came up to me and asked why I did this, after I told them that the noise was too loud they just scoffed and told me if I really loved god that I would listen even though it hurt.

@ddelta02

Жыл бұрын

Dang I’m sorry, I remember being told that I was being a burden because I wasn’t participating in a game at a camp (for context I had really bad social anxiety at the time). I was so pissed afterwards and it kinda manifested into a hatred of games. A few years later I literally hid from games and ended up being chased down and forced to apologize for again just not participating in games. I never missed a service and I was one of the most helpful respectful teens but for some reason they really didn’t like when I didn’t play along. I’m naturally competitive and I love people and games but the whole ordeal traumatized me. People can be really hurtful for no good reason I guess :(

@salemcrow5078

Жыл бұрын

BROOO you literally just copy-pasted the memories from my head WTF

@billking3923

Жыл бұрын

That was heartbreaking to read. 😢 I’m nearly 50 and don’t have autism. But I can get overstimulated to the point of a nervous breakdown. You might find intimacy with God in solitude and a more mellow form of worship. Just a thought.

@billking3923

Жыл бұрын

@@zabbee2323 I hear ya on that. People don’t know what it is going on inside your head.

@zabbee2323

Жыл бұрын

@@billking3923 Yet they think they know more about you then, well, you

As a person raised Catholic (not a believer) I found Pentecostal services I attended with a few friends to be almost terrifying with the hands in the air and bizarre physical gestures and random falling to the ground and thrashing and “speaking in tongues.” It was sooooo performative.

@advisorywarning

Жыл бұрын

I am an ex Mormon- first time I went to a Pentecostal church with my rehab I was thoroughly freaked out! Speaking in tongues, wailing/crying, thrashing about on the floor… 🫣😬

@dawnlovescouture2644

Жыл бұрын

I walked out on one of these services when I was invited to one

@bobloblaw7667

Жыл бұрын

I used to be Pentecostal and did the speaking in tongues (not really any thrashing or running or dancing tho) For some people it is performative but it wasnt for me, i really believed it was God speaking through me. I believed the manipulative tactics. Its years and years of manipulation and isolationism that gets you there. Most people who are pentecostal and stay that way were born into it and heavily indoctrinated or have some sort of cognitive decline. Its very strange though and I dont blame any of you guys for being freaked out, i brought a few people to church and they were def weirded out lol.

@philmabarak5421

Жыл бұрын

Same. I tried to see the truth of it. Never ever could. Tried honestly and humbly. Terrifying. Eventually I felt like Damion in the Omen when they approached the church. kzread.info/dash/bejne/foNnrc6Cg8vVeNI.html

@CantonDem13

Жыл бұрын

I wasn't raised Catholic, but my dad's side of the family was raised in the church. (My dad left the church over bureaucratic hypocrisy.) That's meant going to the odd mass for various weddings, funerals, baptisms, and dedications over the years. Catholic mass is incredibly ritualistic and incorporates music, but it's also so, so much quieter than the sort of practice GMS presents here. From what I can remember, Lutheran services aren't super far removed from Catholic mass, either, but it's been a *very* long time since I've been to one. Given the choice, I'll take solemn hymns and incense over cheesy contemporary worship music and speaking in tongues any day. The former is no less manipulative, but it's at least more predictable.

I played in worship bands for 5 years including as a worship leader for over a year. This is 100% accurate. I remember a pastor saying to me after a service how much he enjoyed the music and how “god was in the room” and how I must have had a “deep connection with the Holy Spirit”. While this was years before I became an atheist I still remember being frustrated by this - to me, making the music emotional was so simple and formulaic and I realized that so many people saw God in what was, to me, obviously just a function of particular chord progressions and arrangements. Hans Zimmer makes you “feel” things too - it’s not God.

@scherzva

2 жыл бұрын

Years ago I said something quite similar to an Evangelical friend and he laughed at me. He knows agrees with me now that he's left his church. I am curious as to what chords/progressions/arrangements spark the most emotion. Unfortunately, I don't have a music background beyond being a fan.

@DS-it5iq

2 жыл бұрын

So funny that you’ve mentioned Zimmer, since I literally used to play the chord progression from Inception for the prayer time.

@kateofone

2 жыл бұрын

Gosh I love that I see myself as one who understands culture and sees social norms as silly. I can go to church and then take off without feeling guilty at all. I can tell the difference between spiritual and emotional reactions. I had someone try to call me on stage once and I was like nah pass lol.

@less2worryabout

2 жыл бұрын

@@kateofone you should get up there.....

@SenhorAlien

2 жыл бұрын

@@less2worryabout nah, pass.

This would sound soooo creepy if it wasn't normalized in our culture. As someone who's never been religious or really looked at what people actually do in church, I am thoroughly creeped out.

@exodusn2233

3 жыл бұрын

I know a lot of Europeans get absolutely baffled when hearing about American religious practices

@mergetvs

3 жыл бұрын

The religious mania is very real, and sad.

@alexvanin4385

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine being raised in these church’s 💀

@unknownx7252

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexvanin4385 it's all relative, more likely you'll think it's the norm and not think much of it.

@xenonsan3110

3 жыл бұрын

@@unknownx7252 it's more like growing up thinking it's normal and the beliefs practiced by the church are normal. Then slowly realizing as you grow up that it is wrong. Takes a lot of strength to admit that and it's very scary

Going to church always made me uncomfortable because I felt like I was being emotionally exploited. It made me emotional in the opposite kind of way they were aiming for, I got angry, frustrated, because I felt like I was being forced in feeling something that I couldn’t actually feel. I’ve always had conflicting feelings towards religion because it feels … wrong.

@Aa-Sadam

Жыл бұрын

Exaaaactly. Looking around.. imagining being in their heads.. not being able to believe their behavior... doubting everyone else.. feeling so awkward.. yikes.

@Cool-Vest_Leo

Жыл бұрын

I also feel this way with nationalism. Have you ever heard the Pledge of Allegiance? Every part of it feels... Weird. The fact that you have to, on a daily basis, publicly affirm your allegiance to the country while facing the flag feels fascist. The "under God" part I have started to fully omit because it doesn't reflect the right to religious freedom. The last part ends by basically saying that the national is immortal and entirely devoted to liberty and justice, which has become comparatively less true over time. That is in there to create a neural connection between those great ideals and America so that you associate them without even considering it. It just feels... Wrong.

@gaby5546

Жыл бұрын

Same, that's exactly how I felt too.

@amesstarline5482

Жыл бұрын

​@@Cool-Vest_Leo If I remember correctly, the "under God" aspect was only added during the Cold War, or at least the Second Red Scare.

@Cool-Vest_Leo

Жыл бұрын

@@amesstarline5482 I've heard about that. Back when the only way to survive a nuclear fallout was to have God and Anime on your side.

Listening to this literally makes me, I can't even explain it. As a gay man I grew up hating myself. Everytime I went into church I would pray to be "normal." This is exactly how they did it. I hated myself because of these people and I am from the southern bible belt and constantly got told god hates me when I couldn't help it or change. Believe me I tried. I really enjoy your channel because it has helped me alot move past alot of these feelings.

@gloriab357

Жыл бұрын

I'm so sorry your experience in churches led you to hate yourself. Think about it -- it's all based on what goat herders wrote down a few thousand years ago. What did they understand about homosexuality that could in any way be useful to us today? You are fine as you are. Be content with being gay. About 5 or 6% of every population is gay, without regard to upbringing, religion, or culture. It's part of nature. Other mammals have a small number who have same sex preference. Accept and love yourself without regard to what might be said in some churches.

@bmoe4609

Жыл бұрын

Your beautiful how u are never change for anyone

@greg-op2jh

Жыл бұрын

@@bmoe4609 thank you very much you are very kind

@davidbakke9293

Жыл бұрын

Damn I’m sorry. Remember that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay and being in a gay relationship is totally ethical and within your bounds. I remember my church was actually quite open to gay people and it gave me hope that Christians and LGBTQ can co-exist. Even though I don’t go to church very often, I appreciate the work they’ve done to really welcome anyone and support who they are.

@legacybuilder9664

Жыл бұрын

God loves you so much that He sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ Yeshua into the world to pay the penalty for your sins on the cross. Jesus Christ came into the world to save you not condemn you. God does hate you. God hates sin . God is Holy . May God deliver you from self hatred and reveal his never ending unfailing love for you. May God bless you.

as a music major i just wanna add that this basically happens everywhere, grocery stores play music thats designed to make you walk at a certain pace and feel happier etc. its so fascinating

@justincarroll1836

3 жыл бұрын

Ironically, my favorite grocery store plays music I'd consider to be contrary to that: pop from 10 years ago that aged about as well as an open soda from the same time.

@ezekielsmith8603

3 жыл бұрын

Joke's on you, i listen to audio books while grocery shopping! Try it out if you want you're mind blown

@kalstonii

3 жыл бұрын

Its all “social engineering”

@mr16325

3 жыл бұрын

Good luck finding a job

@ProfessorM_PhD

3 жыл бұрын

I've heard that older video games play music made to make you concentrate.

I remember one time after an incredibly intense emotionally manipulative service at a youth conference when I was in 8th grade, everyone of the other teens flooded the altar, all crying & “confessing”, revisiting their salvation, saying they feel called to this or that, I was the only one left in the pews & I had a staff member come up to me, asking why I didn’t go down to the altar. I told her that it’s because I didn’t feel a need to revisit if I was saved or not, nor had I been called to do any ministry, & did not have a sin I felt compelled to go down. She got so redfaced & literally grabbed my arm & pulled me down to the altar with everyone else. She told me that wasn’t possible & that I was intentionally being stubborn because I didn’t want to give up my sins.....👀 I think that was the day I started questioning everything.😅

@raynegruber5368

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. I think the biggest flaw in the plans for a good sermon, is that it can get people too zealous. Overzealous people are probably in the top 3/4 for ways people start questioning religions.

@Teckno72

2 жыл бұрын

I simply got tired of worship services, and the hypocrisy in churches is criminal. Now, I study other (mostly Eastern) religions. I still pray and believe, but my spiritual understanding is much broader than it was. Also, if I ever felt bad for being gay, I don’t now. It’s just a part of me.

@Lindsaytaylortaylor

2 жыл бұрын

Was it Dawson McAllister or Mark Matlock?

@belladonnabudgets7362

2 жыл бұрын

Good lord! That's some projection right there! I am talking about that woman who pulled you.

@hitirussantosa7116

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/pHdsp7ebmtCypNY.html

I've never had trouble feeling that "spiritual high" during praise and worship at church. I've cried multiple times while singing to God, and just get very emotional during the whole thing. But that's because I was practically raised in the church, singing hymns and reciting bible verses on stage as a kid. Our pastor's wife kept a close watch on me, because she said I "had a very special gift from God" within me, and that we had to cherish and take care of it. She'd even give me money after every song I sing on stage "as a reward." So yeah, you can say I was emotionally manipulated as a child, until I became an atheist a year ago. Haven't come out yet, though. I'm still a member of the church, just not as active as I was before. I don't know how to tell them, and I still don't have the courage to.

@RoeeNegbyDaHot

Жыл бұрын

Hey there. It's been 11 months since you wrote this, so I don't know what's your situation rn. But I really get how you felt. Coming from the same place of growing in a religious (Jewish) community, I often felt the same deep connection to god, and was told many times by my mom and teachers that I was righteous and had a special bond with god. This indoctrination placed a pressure on me for many years, because I was expected to behave in certain ways that defied my developing senses of logic and natural tendencies and desires, and I still haven't fully recovered from it 8 years after leaving religion. A big part in my recovery and acceptance of my true self, though, was choosing actively to leave the community. Even if it meant dropping out of my religious high school, not keeping constant with any of the students, and disappointing my mom a thousand times. It was a hard and painful step but without it I couldn't have ever felt true to myself and my morals. I hope you'll find your way too, and not suffer too much from it.💗

@Bones97000

Жыл бұрын

I’m in a similar place with my beliefs. I feel that unspoken pressure from my family to maintain my faith in Christianity, when all I want to do is let it go and form my own conclusions from various life experiences. A few years back I had roommates from all kinds of backgrounds and once told my dad that I was being challenged in ways I’d not considered before. I was questioning things. He said “it’s fine to question and explore your faith.. as long as you’re filtering it through the truth of the Bible.” So I could research outside the family faith…as long as I lean on our family faith as the inerrant truth above anything else… That moment was the start of my deconstruction process, I think. At this point I’m keeping face for a little while longer, until I can muster the self-confidence to be completely myself in front of family. :)

@tennicksalvarez9079

Жыл бұрын

Hope ur doing well

@artemisnite

Жыл бұрын

Sorry. But that's not why. I was raised in the church as well and always felt extremely uncomfortable in worship services. I won't say I never got emotional, but that was the exception by far. I felt stupid clapping my hands and singing. Honestly I think I knew it was all bs by eight years old but they brainwash you to doublethink. It wasn't until four decades passed and trump exposed the hypocrisy that I was finally able to break free. Anyway, my point is that I don't think just being raised in the church automatically makes you susceptible to the emotional tricks they play. I could be wrong.

@artemisnite

Жыл бұрын

​@@Bones97000 I "came out" to my family awhile back. We went through a brief period where they were very vindictive about it, but I held my boundaries and it came to a breaking point. We all realized we had to lay down arms or end our relationship and we chose to come together. Things have been going well since. Nothing is more freeing than being true to yourself. Good luck!

Growing up in a very sheltered religious environment - I didn't have access to anything but worship music for a while. And then I had a "spiritual" experience with secular music and it kicked off a whole journey. Gotta love when you realize you never actually felt god only music.

If I hear the phrase “can we just, lift our hands?” It induces a PTSD-like form of whip lash for me

@apis7480

3 жыл бұрын

Same. Genuinely makes me want to run to the hills hahaha

@cunadeletra

2 жыл бұрын

same!

@Lkrona

2 жыл бұрын

Saying you have PTSD is so fucking cringe. I’m sure someone asking you to lift your hands was soooo traumatizing😩

@Bensalami69

2 жыл бұрын

@@Lkrona hey buddy. Not sure if you got the memo, but we like to have fun making jokes around here. The comment above I made is an example of such. Try not to be so ✨literal✨

@jakethepillowsnake4098

2 жыл бұрын

I'm sorry, homie. The phrase "Almighty Father and dear Lord Jesus, we pray to you in the holy spirit" plays in my head over and over. Always accompanied by intense anxiety.

I remember one church service where I decided to basically stay as emotionally neutral as I could and just look around. I never felt so creeped out by the mood in the room then that moment

@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic

3 жыл бұрын

I’m in that state of mind a lot of the time so I had to act like I didn’t think sappy worship services were weird for years lol

@allyli1718

3 жыл бұрын

Not me during the entirety of my adolescence 👀👀 Haha for real, I felt awful that I never felt God’s spirit during church for years until l finally felt secure in my atheism

@Imagine359

3 жыл бұрын

That's exactly how I felt when I attended mass as self-admitted agnostic for the first time after 3 years. I finally saw the brainwashing so clearly. I was like "wow, I used to buy into this crap, this is horrible". The sermon ended with the priest inviting everybody to join upcoming "walk for life" which was a political protest that tried to make abortions illegal in my country... I never went back.

@katalinahernandez9084

3 жыл бұрын

I remember this happening so many times... that's when I started to get told off because apparently I only cared about hanging out with my friends (the only ones I was allowed to have) and not about the actual service or church. Oh really... *eye roll* I was an effing teenager.

@yachishairclips2250

3 жыл бұрын

I did that too... And yeah.. It is weird

I grew up in the church. My father was assistant pastor, my mother the CE director. When I was fifteen years old I was struggling with my faith and all other things that teens grapple with. One Wednesday night (yes, me and my siblings had to attend at least twice if not thrice a week) during a particularly spectacular worship session (which I understand now was pre-planned) I asked God with a truly humble and plaintive heart to speak to me. The youth pastor was calling on us to come to the alter and submit to god's will that we might be cleansed of--I guess being human? People were being slain in the spirit at the stage so I came forward--again, with a penitent heart--and had hands laid upon me. Two brothers (deacons?) Stood by my side while the junior pastor prayed over me and annoited my forehead with oil. He continued to pray while ever so slightly pushing more and more firmly on my forehead. Once my balance was ambushed by his finger I went to take a step back only to find the two others beside me had their feet directly behind mine, their hands already on my shoulders. I couldn't step back to regain my balance. They gently laid me on the floor and I was finally free of the curse of the occult. I started laughing histarically. I am positive they thought that the holy spirit had moved me but the reality was I had received God's message. He doesn't exist. These are fools and charletains who may or may not believe their own lies but their actions that day helped me become the much better person that I am today. Not a Christian.

@classybree2241

2 жыл бұрын

Hmmm I excorted my friend to a church during prayers they lay ambush on me someone hitting me from the back 2 others holding my both hands while the pastor kept his hand on my head which I just finished braiding few hrs ago b4 coming to the church, he turned my head to the side and I was in pain shouting n holding on my friend telling her they are pushing me. I didn even ask them to pray for me they did this without my consent and showed how horrible they are. The church owners called my friend to asked her hope I am not angry with the deliverance. Imaging!! I posted all this on my Facebook page to expose their evil

@segundavid4503

Жыл бұрын

Had a good laugh not gonna lie.

@Hgkbukk

Жыл бұрын

I'm sorry you experienced that shit. A pastor tried that on me too as a kid but I pushed his hand harder than he could push me! Not gonna fall for that shit! I hope one day you'll find that there's a good God, beyond all this mindless manipulation.

@legacybuilder9664

Жыл бұрын

What you experienced was churchology not Christianity.

@gaby5546

Жыл бұрын

What? That's really weird, why'd they lay you on the floor?

I remember going to a "young men's christian conference" with my dad and brothers when I was a teen. At the end of the conference, one of the older men in the group addressed the teens in the big church with an altar call. They had emotional music, questions and answers on the big screen about wanting to go to heaven when you die, and loving Jesus etc etc, and some bit of overly emotional "testimony" by the presenter. Remember: my dad and I and my brothers were all devout baptist christians at the time. Anyway, my dad turns to us with a scowl on his face and says: "They're just getting all the kids emotional so they make confessions of faith and get manipulated." Who knew his (albeit believing) skepticism would stay with me even to this day, like 15+ years later...

@Claire-tk4do

23 күн бұрын

I love that he was able to see through it and have that intellectual honesty and integrity while being a believer!

When I used to go to church, everybody else would start crying and getting emotional and "feeling the holy Spirit". I've always thought it was weird. I honestly never felt it. I was often the only one standing just watching the band playing while everyone else was crying and kneeling on the floor. I guess I was always skeptical.

@KirstenMarie_MS3

3 жыл бұрын

That's because they're all experiencing the activation of the reward circuit and getting a hit of dopamine and serotonin. Meanwhile activity in the reasoning and logic centers is reduced. For whatever reason, it wasn't enough to affect you or you managed to reason your way to a point where activity in your prefrontal cortex was no longer being diverted to the nucleus accumbens, or reward pathway. I dunno about you, but I remember going through the process of being less and less affected by church services, even to the point of resentment when my stepmother would force 13-14 yro me to go to the Sunday School class with mostly kids under the age of 11.

@beyond7830

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I’m Catholic and the first time I went to a Pentecostal service it was weird. Everyone was crying and it seemed force. We are deathly afraid of silence in our culture today. It’s a lot easier to go to a service and listen to decent music and get emotional than it is to go to mass where Jesus is standing right before us, silently. Psalm 46 verse 11, be still and know that I am God, (know) in Hebrew is knowledge that is gained by experience. Experience God in the stillness, in the silence.

@pnut3844able

2 жыл бұрын

Yea it's so fucking weird

@PBAmygdala2021

2 жыл бұрын

@@KirstenMarie_MS3 nailed it! Bingo! So thrilled to finally see another scientist in the chats! Subscribed!

@cheesecake6159

2 жыл бұрын

I was raised baptist and when I was in college I started attending a Youth Evangelical church because that's where my friends and upperclassmen went and I was so surprised at everyone screaming and crying and falling on the ground and "feeling the holy spirit" Just to be clear, at this point, I was pretty sure I'm a skeptic in my head already but that was surely an experience I never had in the Baptist Church I grew up in.

Oh. I’m a musician. When you said “I’m going to take you to church”, I thought we were about to raise the roof

@unknownx7252

3 жыл бұрын

Lol been there 🤣

@jeffstreck

3 жыл бұрын

🤣

@Competitive_Antagonist

3 жыл бұрын

I just thought about that song. It's just an emotional music video and brought tears to my eyes.

@9tailedbeast392

3 жыл бұрын

Oh that's a song....a sad but true song at that......😭😭😭

@jacksonsneed7689

3 жыл бұрын

@William Hostutler Yup, I thought the same thing as well. 🎵🎶

My mother is a devout Christian and my father is an atheist. After being forced to go to church for so long, I can say that it was a breath of fresh air the day I was allowed to choose to not go. A choice I was allowed to make by my father. Church services always bored me when I was a child because I never got emotionally charged by them and just wanted to spend that time playing video games. I know now that I'm most easily charged by anger than sadness, and the churches I went to when I was younger prayed upon somber emotions more than not. I think it was a mixture of ineffective music on me, and my father being sternly against religion that allowed me to see the service for what it is than how it wants you to perceive it.

@schwarzwolfram7925

Жыл бұрын

Imagine dragging a little kid to the most boring thing ever once a week and being surprised when they decided to not go when they finally have the choice.

@cpottervlog8122

Жыл бұрын

I went to church as an adult only for the buffet thing they had before the service. The rest of it never meant anything to me. When you’re hungry and dead broke, you do what you have to do

In my 1st year of ministry training I was chatting with the worship band & the drummer said, “I can control the Holy Spirit!” “You’re kidding, right?” I said. He shrugged & explained that if he plays that rushing sound, people always start raising their hands. Being around self-aware Christians, & Christians who were skeptical of the emotional priming of worship was a huge help for me in my 3+ decades of going to church. Personally, I was emotionally priming myself with headphones on in my bedroom from ~9 years old. As a teenager I realized that whether I was in a church worship service, or whether I were to go dancing naked around a fire in the jungle worshiping a completely different God, it would still feel the same. It’s part of being human, perhaps. As an adult I was fully aware that I Wanted the experience. If that’s what it takes to feel God, I still want to. Whether it’s from reading a good book, looking at a lakeside sunrise, getting excited about going skiing, or bringing myself into a deep meditative state, whatever. I don’t even believe “purely rational” exists. This is just where I’m at: I want the significantly rational, And I want the God experience.

@greatexpectations6577

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting. Are all feels goods the same or is there a variation?

@luke.friesen

Жыл бұрын

@@greatexpectations6577 variation.

@boserboser6870

Жыл бұрын

This is probably the most healthy aprouch ive seen to spirituality. No illusions just the understanding that emotional euphoria can be a positive and personally satisfying experience.

@CampingforCool41

Жыл бұрын

Humans are not and cannot be “purely rational”. Doesn’t mean there’s not a rationality to everything.

Church services are extremely hypnotic in nature - worship and prayer are religious forms of being in a highly suggestive trance

@WhaleManMan

3 жыл бұрын

That is new levels of stupid.

@46raulfull

3 жыл бұрын

@@WhaleManMan what is?

@WhaleManMan

3 жыл бұрын

@@46raulfull Believing that church is just hypnosis

@46raulfull

3 жыл бұрын

@@WhaleManMan it is tho

@WhaleManMan

3 жыл бұрын

@@46raulfull You believe that because you think religious people don't choose what they believe.

So fascinating. My Christian family has been complaining about feeling "distant from God" during covid due to the virtual church services and it's so funny how they don't realize why that is.

@siriuspope3552

3 жыл бұрын

Their weekly hypnosis therapy runnin a little low lately. I never thought about this in depth but see, I'm fin with interacting with folks online. They HAVE to be in person, physically there, for their weekly musical hypnosis. Makes sense to me tbh

@tme98

3 жыл бұрын

@@siriuspope3552 Doesn’t have to be music either, just the mass showing in a church on sunday could be enough to add to your belief that its true, because why would a lot of people follow something unlikely? I know that logic has many failed angles to it, but it make sense from a lazy brain standpoint. If many people does something, it’s likely we don’t have to be so critical on it.

@nothingtodo58

3 жыл бұрын

They'd think Satan is manipulating you through this video. Ironically, it is they who are being manipulated. Not by Satan, but by their fellow humans.

@paige1021

3 жыл бұрын

@@nothingtodo58 Yup. I’ve been told I’m being “brainwashed” many times by the very people who were indoctrinated into their religion.

@Axel-wo6qu

3 жыл бұрын

My faith has only gotten stronger since Covid. Guess it really makes a difference when my church doesn't use feelings as the heart of church meetings or gospel.

My family doesn't really say I love you. I sometimes went to church with my friends just to support them, but when they do the 'hold hands, look to your left and right, tell that person I Love You'. I almost cried cause I'd been feeling lonely and thought about going back, then realized those people didn't know me and that I'd be going back just to chase that superficial feeling.

@bobloblaw7667

Жыл бұрын

You deserve genuine love, and the church only loves when you conform to their every expectation, its not genuine.

As a former worship musician myself, including in some larger well-known churches, I can attest to this. We on the worship team are expert manipulators. We know exactly what we're doing, even though it's usually not overtly mentioned. Before a worship service, the pastor almost always gives suggestions or direction based on what the sermon is going to be. Maybe the pastor wants the people to be in a somber mood, or joyful, or sad, or militant, or simply energized. Whatever the goal, we had the recipe.

@loturzelrestaurant

Жыл бұрын

I'm glad Theists come to GMS and watch him, just like Prophet-of-Zod, as they are so polite and adorable. Thats nice and all, but it makes me wonder if they then shy-away all the more from harsh confrontations with solid Walls of Truth, like what Aron Ra just did in his videos about '7 Truths'.

@carlblaskovich2812

Жыл бұрын

Do you have a recipe for hamburger?

In church and particularly at church camp, I always glanced around and wondered why I didn’t feel the need to raise my hands, why I wasn’t brought to tears, why I didn’t feel close to God. This is an interesting concept.

@zacgonzales5883

3 жыл бұрын

It's what led me to question my faith, too. That I was doing it just because everyone else was, not because I believed it.

@petermermilliod1545

3 жыл бұрын

I have felt that every time ive been to church for the last few years. Especially as i lead music from stage.

@petermermilliod1545

3 жыл бұрын

Led*

@UltimateCheetah-zs2iw

3 жыл бұрын

Me too. I asked why I didn't hear god speaking to me. Why I had doubts. I was wondering if I chose the wrong religion and was going to hell. How did I know which god was real? (This started in second grade.) When I realized that atheism existed, and that it might be the right path, it took a long long time for me to stop being worried that I'd go to hell. I'd have horrible nightmares.

@MrSir-wl9hh

3 жыл бұрын

We’re the lucky ones.

"There's someone in here who...." Sounds an *awful lot* like cold reading.

@RobotMushroomGrappler

3 жыл бұрын

My dad used to attend a non-denominational church that regularly had "prophets" come in, they often just stood at the front of the room and said "I'm sensing someone with ________ problems" or things like that until they found a willing participant.

@aymericst-louis-gabriel8314

3 жыл бұрын

As a person that writes sermons... Maybe you just more or less know your audience ??? I once went to a very wealthy, older, whiter church and the example of sins were like: paying yourself more money than necessary to buy a boat you don't need. Completely unrelatable: because I was not the target audience. People come to church to hear something that is meaningful for their lives, preachers and pastors are paid to speak to their congregation why would you think that they choose their words haphazardly. That's a whole job, a whole craft.

@LukeMcGuireoides

2 жыл бұрын

Too bad it's all done with questionable intentions, like making people feel guilty or preying on their insecurities or often even shaming people. Altar calls were so predatory in my experience. I swear, people just convulse and faint to get everyones hands off them. Other churches I went to were just even more cliquey, less ostentatious and overtly pressuring but still the shame and the coercion was intense. No matter what church theres always so much manipulation happening. I never understood why so many normal and natural things would lead to an eternity of torture. It's just all in order to make you conform and fit within constricting confines. It's no wonder theres so much sexual and psychological predation in those communities. Evangelical christianity is now an overt threat to democracy and our planet. It's like the more marginalized they become the more flagrantly coercive and destructive they get. Attendance might be shrinking but the amount of money they use to legally bribe politicians, when the politicians arent nutjob zealots themselves, is more massive than ever I suspect. Their goal is to turn our country into a theocracy. The American Taliban. I used to think, well, religion is responsible for a lot of good in the world. No way I believe that now. If a church doesnt push back against unchecked capitalism and the destruction ofnthe planet then they are not a force for good. No room for neutral parties

@TheRealKenF

2 ай бұрын

That’s because it is.

I grew up Catholic and my church at home never bothered with this stuff-the songs are very tame and a lot of people don’t actually sing, the service is very formal and ritualistic, it’s shorter than these big concert masses, and the priests just sort of do their own thing, acting like you can get into it and respond emotionally if you want but they’re just going to keep doing what they’re doing. Now, at college, I work at a daycare at a Methodist church. It’s a great job, with good hourly pay and really flexible hours, and the church is surprisingly progressive-their black history month education included much more than just MLK, many of the moms dress in alternative style (shaved heads and piercings etc), and the pastors I’ve spoken to have all been really pro-vaccine. But the church is as big as a community college campus and it has a cafe, an auditorium, two nurseries, and many more amenities. When I’m responsible for watching the really little kids during the Sunday service, the service plays on a tv in the nursery. Last weekend, there was a pretty androgynous teenager singing “Lead me to the Cross” over the loudspeakers. My Catholic Church didn’t have any songs that were so emotional. I found myself being really impacted by the kid’s performance. They were really talented and I was very much drawn in. I found myself almost tearing up at times, and I’m not even really religious. This is a nice, progressive church that gave all their employees a generous raise at the beginning of the pandemic “because they knew times had become so hard.” From what I can tell, they don’t do a lot of the underhanded manipulation tactics I’ve heard of at a lot of big Protestant purity culture services to draw you in, and nobody’s ever tried to convert me there. If their service was so powerful that I found it captivating, I was drawn in and felt something deep, I can’t imagine the emotional draw of churches that do engage in underhanded emotional manipulation tactics. It really makes me feel sympathy and respect for people who leave and deconstruct their hardcore evangelical faith. It must take a LOT of strength and resolve to not be drawn in by these services and the community and their manipulation tactics.

@GeeEee75

28 күн бұрын

Just the fact that they feel the need to hold services and use music to bring the congregation together should alert you that they're manipulating people, however gentle that manipulation might seem in comparison to other churches. As for the good they do in the community, there's no need to believe in god to be charitable or to support your neighbour during hard times.

Former worship leader as well. I was always surprised by how easy it was to emotionally manipulate a room full of people. It felt like it took little to no effort to drive a service to a "spontaneous alter call". Sadly, it was even simpler when the room was made up of all young people, or just one gender.

@kjmav10135

Жыл бұрын

I heard Josh McDowell say very sadly once that, “if we don’t get people converted before they left high school, chances were, we’d never get them won to Christ at all.” It occurred to me that the reason had everything to do with adolescent susceptibility to peer pressure and the need to belong. Basically, Evangelical Christianity is nothing more than millions and millions of people suffering from arrested development.

@scarletshadowhawk2710

Жыл бұрын

I wonder if this is why Christian youth group retreats or women’s / men’s retreats (at least at non denominational churches) are so popular. Get all the people of a similar background together throw in some of the standard church worship tactics described and they’re more likely to feel pressured and fall for it.

@whatabouttheearth

Жыл бұрын

I suggest reading 'Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brain-washing' by William Sargant

@snoozyq9576

Жыл бұрын

Well a religious gathering is probably the best place to find people desperate for these experiences. They want to believe

@Brynnthebookworm

9 ай бұрын

The most emotional that I remember ever getting during a church service was when I went with a few friends to a bigger church for an all girls lock in. They had us all bawling and re-accepting Jesus as our savior easy as that. As an atheist adult I know that they just emotionally manipulated a bunch of kids that wanted to belong. It's easy to make people emotional when joined in music. It's why going to live concerts is so awesome. I've also gotten the same feeling when performing on stage in a band.

As a former evangelical Christian, I related to this SO MUCH! The emotional manipulation is strong in church.

@skeeverskeeyo7331

2 жыл бұрын

@Jaime Alvarez Catholic churches are notoriously manipulative. Just because they operate with different tools does not mean they are better. If Christianity was so valid, then it wouldn't need to vary the way it operates region to region. Denomination to denomination. To the point that 2 different churches can preach completely different messages. How can something that lacks a consistent message represent something that is as final as "gods will"? How is it that catholic churches determine "tradition"? It's funny how arbitrary it is. Just like developing a system, changing to fit the culture around it while presenting a mythology of "timelessness". At one point burning jews and muslims at the stake was a catholic tradition. You are saying to pick your poison. And in the end it is still simply poison. And that is just as abusive and sad as anything in this video.

@usernotfound-jw7xs

2 жыл бұрын

"the emotional manipulation is strong with this one"

@TheJpep2424

2 жыл бұрын

these arent churches. They're deceived false converts deceiving other deceived false converts. Christ is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except thru him. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

@ckinggaming5bucketmadness766

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheJpep2424 fair enough, I personally don’t believe god exists after my experience, but if you believe god will lead to happiness in others, you be you, and spread your beliefs. Just don’t be too aggressive with it.

@snooganslestat2030

2 жыл бұрын

@@ckinggaming5bucketmadness766 I don't think spreading their beliefs is good or innocent. So many people suffer because of religion.

Raised Catholic, wife's family Protestant. I remember going to her church the first time and I remember thinking: "This isn't worship, it's a concert with a sermon!" It was quickly apparent how the constant music melted people into raw emotions. Very different than the rigid Mass structure in the Catholic church back then (30 years ago), and quite unnerving to witness as a budding Atheist. Great video, thanks Drew.

@IIARROWS

3 жыл бұрын

@Eastern fence Lizard Where did you lived? I don't think any catholic church has anything even remotely comparable to that... 33 from Italy.

@stephengalanis

3 жыл бұрын

The repetitive, ritual, communal nature applies to Catholicism though. The same psychological biases are being exploited at mass.

@jeremiahstenzel789

3 жыл бұрын

As someone who was raised as Baptist, I would sometimes attend mass with my cousin's family who were Catholic. I remember being legitimately unnerved by the ritual chanting with the priest beginning a stock phrase and the congregation finishing it. I remember thinking "These people are like robots." I found the whole service to be mechanical. Nothing at all like what I was familiar with at the time.

@IIARROWS

3 жыл бұрын

@@stephengalanis Not like this...

@gmansard641

3 жыл бұрын

My reaction exactly. Likewise, my own background is Catholic. Mainstream Protestant services can be almost identical to the Catholic Mass, but I have never been to one of these more evangelical services. I don't know how I would have reacted when I was a kid, but from today's perspective it all seems so superficial. I must not be typical, but I know that a service like this would have no effect on me, I have a very deeply rooted aversion to conformity.

I was the kid you would see in the sound booth, setting up and tearing down every week, I was (and still am) the nerd. I saw first hand all of what Drew and @FaithFree talk about - it's no joke and people need to see how manipulative church leaders are. When I was about 16 (about 3 years of doing church setup at that point), I suddenly started seeing how manipulative the "production" of church was. Once you see it, you can never unsee it. The pastor along with the music pastor and "digital pastor" (for lack of a better term) would coordinate the service down to what was going to happen when. The worst part is people think they are having this moment with their God spontaneously - it is not. It is a carefully planned **and rehearsed** series of moments. Later, when I was a little older and more in the "in group" of church leaders, I started seeing other things that were coordinated as well. My pastor would "seed" the alter call (she would ask specific people to come up to the front with the intended effect of it giving permission for others), because it was televised and she wanted people to see how powerful her message was. I also found out that specific people were asked to shout specific "words of knowledge" (supposed to be God speaking directly through you) that supported the pastor's teaching. I came to realize that all of this was nothing more than the same theater that I was doing at my school - only the church was messing with people's hearts and pocket books (remember 10% of your income is supposed to go the church). Now I have seen over my life (30+ years since that time) that nearly the entire Evangelical "non-denomination" denomination uses these techniques - and have used them since it began in the 30s. And, sadly, manipulation is a tool for a purpose - to maintain power and money. Remember, many times, these pastors are paid a generous salary - some are paid very generously - with the money that people give to the church. What is the purpose of all of this power and money? Many pastors begin to believe they *deserve* the power and money and develop a strong need to hold on to it. Indeed, a "daughter"/spin-off church from the one I attended now has a pastor that is grooming both his son and that entire congregation for the "mantle" of Pastor to pass to his son. Do we really believe Jesus wants to keep church leadership "in the family"??? What is the real reason for passing "pastorship" to his son?? It's all about Money & Power. It is grotesque and disgusting - and all in the name of Jesus.

@emyyyxx

2 жыл бұрын

interesting perspective David!

@heaventohades

2 жыл бұрын

great observation at the end there. it seems that the main point of controlling people has always been about maintaining the system that rewards those at the top, and making common people think that the status quo is the status quo for good reason.

I’ve always been an atheist. But when I was 15 I was invited and went to a youth church, and this psychological manipulation convinced me I had been touched by god. Now, the following day the high was gone, and I felt confused. By coincidence there was a documentary on TV that week talking about group psychology and it describes what happened to me perfectly. I felt angry with myself that I let myself be manipulated like that. But on the flip side it was a great lesson to learn early and fairly benignly. Sort of kick started a life long interest in psychology.

My least favorite part of church as a kid was having to stand for too long. Always couldn’t wait for the music to get over so I could sit down and zone out

@inactiveaccount2703

3 жыл бұрын

THIS

@ElenaSemanova

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, me xD

@2degucitas

3 жыл бұрын

Yep. I never paid attention to the sermon.

@ThunderySpoon7

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine this but instead of an actual worship service the “praise team” is singing over a lyric video of a worship song. My church does this and it’s so cringe inducing. Them awkwardly singing over the recorded vocals, cutting off or coming in early or late.

@morgiemango6242

3 жыл бұрын

Same I’m catholic and kept track of how many times I sat and stood. Found a pattern of I stand for two things then sit for two things on repeat

I went to church for a wedding after being atheist for the last few years. Was WAY creepier than I remember

@1Shawol416

3 жыл бұрын

Hindsight is 20/20

@tyler5545

3 жыл бұрын

Yup. A few years back I went to a Catholic wedding of a friend I didn’t know that well. During the ceremony, not only did the priest go on a long lecture about how every day she needs to present herself as a “gift” to her husband, but also took the opportunity to work in attacking gay marriage. I dunno if this was what she was expecting, but if I were her I would’ve been absolutely mortified.

@1Shawol416

3 жыл бұрын

@@tyler5545 if you were her, and she believes what Catholicism teaches, you wouldn’t be mortified. You’d be in agreement and happy on your wedding day (hopefully) lol

@adamplentl5588

3 жыл бұрын

@@1Shawol416 "If you were brainwashed too it would seem fine."

@1Shawol416

3 жыл бұрын

@@adamplentl5588 thanks for re-stating my point for the people in the back

When I was in bible college studying to be a worship pastor, I think learning about ALL of this, was the moment that began to eat away at my faith. It suddenly hit me that all those times I "felt God in the room" was actually just a clever Em chord with a soft pad. Most of what you talk about here is what I really struggled with, and when I learned about it I just saw it more as lying and deceit, and none of my professors could really help me because I suppose they just didn't see it the same way. They saw it as their duty to help lead people to God, where I just saw it as emotional manipulation..

@PraiseTheFSMonster

Жыл бұрын

Ya I was really sad and angry for a while after it dawned on me that my religion was all just a lifetime of being tricked, manipulated, and lied to.

See, I got emotionally charged in the opposite direction. My autism made me incredibly sensitive to loud noises as a kid, and adding that to being forced to attend by my parents led to me being generally annoyed every Sunday. Wasn’t hard to go from having that mood to believing it less and less.

In the last couple of years I have been reflecting on a few more extreme cases of this from my childhood in a very southern Baptist church. The worst ones being “cry night” at summer camp/vbs/ retreat weekends. One year when I was in 4th grade- the year I “re accepted Christ” - they had us all stand for the entire sermon, had dim lights on, and the speaker told a scary story about a son being trapped in a burning building and crying out for his father to save him. Then this was supposed to be an allegory for how we will burn in hell without being saved by God. Every one was crying ( out of fear. I was 10 and in the oldest age group there) and there was a call to accept Christ. Looking back in this I’m just thinking about how all these adults sat around and planned the best way to emotionally manipulate children. Pretty gross to me. And then this video reminds me that they do this in more subtle ways every single week at Sunday service.

@droop1snoot

3 жыл бұрын

that's gotta be horrible for 4th graders Jesus

@LukeMcGuireoides

2 жыл бұрын

That goes way way way beyond simple emotional manipulation. That is outright child abuse. Emotional abuse. Its shit like that that scars some people for life and probably hss negative effects on all who are subject to it. Your church probably did those hell night things for Halloween. We get those a lot around here. I never went to a church that did it but all the churches I went to are guilty of the type of abuse you described. The fact that you RE dedicated yourself in 4th grade surprised even me though. There is no excuse for threatening young children with eternal torture for even the slightest infractions, many of which are natural healthy and unavoidable without damaging oneself in some way. Churches, especially evangelical ones, and I hear catholic ones, are very often filled with abusive and predatory practices. Just look at the religious right in the US today. If I was a believer I would call them evil. What am I saying? It is an evil institution. I've recently learned of progressive churches so I hesitate to go so far as to call all of christianity evil but there is a certain very vocal and very powerful faction that is extremely harmful from a personal level all the way to the political, globally even

@spadinnerxylaphone2622

2 жыл бұрын

The speaker at a camp I went to lost his leg in a car crash. He kept interjecting the phrase "I'm not gonna sugar-coat this. Y'all are old enough to hear it" and talked about how he lost his leg because he tried to run from God's calling.

@mewntay230

2 жыл бұрын

I'm so sorry you went through that, man. I remember as a kid they kept telling me to repeat this gibberish in "tongues". Legitimately pretty scary.

@MorbiusBlueBalls

2 жыл бұрын

when you say to your children that "listen to me or I'll burn you" it's called abuse, when you say "listen to jesus, believe in jesus or god will burn you for eternity" to your children it's called freedom of religion.

As someone who's never been a Church goer, I find this simultaneously really insightful and yet absolutely bonkers! Cheers for the nightmare fuel dude :P

@chrischandler889

3 жыл бұрын

You have to go sometime and maybe do a hidden camera video on it or just a personal experience of your time at local churches. I would love to watch that video. As I do with most of your videos.

@alexlarsen6413

3 жыл бұрын

If you find this absolutely bonkers, not only have you never been a church goer but I suppose you've never gone to a rock concert or a rave either?

@notyoyoma

3 жыл бұрын

You should look at pentecostal Christianity too. Many of them believe that speaking in tongues is a spiritual experience, and members slip into a trance-like state, and babble incoherent nonsense. A leader then typically translates or validates the nonsense as a message from God.

@micahlong2073

3 жыл бұрын

As an ex-Christian, it is often really nice to be in these trance states. I deliberately put off thinking about how little sense God makes because I wanted more of this feeling. It took a looong time to realise that this was always going to be as fleeting and unsatisfying as it always has been.

@hennyb6979

3 жыл бұрын

@@notyoyoma great idea! Yes definitely try a Pentecostal church for your first tim experience @Rationality Rules

I became an atheist at around 7th grade. When I actually started thinking further than what I was told to believe. In 8th or 9th grade, I became friends with this girl who was a devout Christian. One thing led to another and soon enough I started going to church with her. She never knew I was an atheist. I don't think she ever found out. The atmosphere was literally the exact replica of what you're explaining here. It felt like it really was spiritual and god really was present. I really was giving myself over to god. I was starting to believe again at every sermon. But as soon as the next day, it would all feel empty again. Now I really did try to live my everyday life as a Christian, it just never felt real, no matter how hard I tried. You would think since god is so powerful he would at least give me some shred of an answer. I wasn't asking for much. Just a feeling that he was listening. Nothing. My life wasn't going better. There was no divinity showing in a single part of life. I waited long. Looked everywhere. Even tried looking at the brighter side of everything, yet there was still no sign. Then I started to question things again. It all fell flat that very second. There was never anything. It was just me who wanted it to be real for a while.

@afroking2935

Жыл бұрын

Maybe I will go through what you went through by acting to make it real, maybe I'll turn to a believer. The loneliness is unbearable!

@franjegrosskopf2158

Жыл бұрын

@@afroking2935 The problem is that it's still lonely the second you leave that church. You think you're feeling something but it's really just a mind game they are playing with you. They make you feel like you finally belong somewhere. They use the tactics mentioned in the video to a point. It's been a while since I watched the video, so I can't recall everything. But I recall that every single point made was reminding me of how it was at that church. Funnily enough, it was a Hillsong church. The promises they make are empty. That feeling they give you is the exact same feeling you get when going to a music festival only with the added empty promises.

@franjegrosskopf2158

Жыл бұрын

@@afroking2935 Also I was never really a believer. I tried to believe but the disappointment just kept coming. There was nothing that proved anything for me. The only place I felt something was at that church through their manipulation.

@afroking2935

Жыл бұрын

@@franjegrosskopf2158 I understand you perfectly well but I live in Africa, Religion doesn't end in the church. It continues at home, in schools, public places, work places and even on social media. I come to places like this and also follow Africans who are non-believers to get some sort of mental relief but the contents do not do much to help me. Of course, I learn a lot and I've grown much as a person but the fears, the doubts, the vague promises, etc that religion offers still lingers even as I'm being surrounded by believers. I'm naturally a relational person and also a very sensitive person. I absorb the energies of others so just imagine how miserable it is for me to constantly hear that I need Jesus to be whole or I need to know God to succeed. Intellectually, I know what they say is bs but emotionally, it gets to me. There are just so much I could write but I'll just stop here. It's a lot man.

@franjegrosskopf2158

Жыл бұрын

@@afroking2935 I also live in Africa. South Africa to be precise. I know it's not exactly the same as in some other African countries. But religion is everywhere here as well. That didn't do anything for me. It was all empty as soon as I stepped out of church. Because the "holy spirit" doesn't actually exist when they don't have an environment they can control and manipulate you in. That's not even to mention all of the logical questions you have to ask yourself. I can't blindly believe what they tell me. Because it just doesn't logically make sense.

Gottdam. I felt like I was there. First half of my life was religious. I'm not an atheist, but I definitely appreciate all the deep discussions I find on this channel. Keeps my eyes open

As a practicing catholic, I really appreciate this video. A common reminder in the catholic faith is “faith is not a feeling”. I appreciate your channel because it makes me evaluate my faith. I don’t feel like I’m turning into an atheist, but I like to hold my beliefs to scrutiny.

@lucalinadreemur9448

2 жыл бұрын

As a skeptic i would like to express appreciation to you holding your ideas to scrutiny. I'm not offended by belief, but it's more than a little concerning to see people refuse to explore new ideas because of what they believe.

@boogeytime686

2 жыл бұрын

@@lucalinadreemur9448 I agree

@mattd6085

2 жыл бұрын

I'm a long since lapsed catholic, and now an anti-theist, but holy shit do those megachurches make the simple and calm catholic masses look good somehow. Having a local parish priest who would actually crack on with supporting his community instead of his bank balance might be one of the incredibly few positives to come from catholicism

@Bentley109

2 жыл бұрын

Although I am an agnostic, when I was going through a phase of exploring different faiths I did appreciate Catholic mass much more than the evangelical services I was used to growing up. They were more matter of fact and to the point, and didn’t have nearly the same levels of blatant emotional manipulation that evangelical services do. I do appreciate you coming onto this channel and exploring beliefs different than yours in a polite and curious way, the world needs more people who are willing to explore different ideas!

@Bougart

2 жыл бұрын

This is axactly me, thank you for the comment like this

I remember switching the words to a gospel song as a kid to make it funny at church once. My mom heard and slapped me multiple times yelling at me to apologize to God, and how dare I make fun of the song. So with tears in my eyes I looked up to the ceiling and said "I'm sorry God". Twenty years now most of my family doesn't understand why I'm Atheist since I grew up in a Christian household. Just like the scene I described above, its all about emotional manipulation and fear mongering to get you to follow a group of people, and not the guidance of a spiritual entity.

@kevinsturges6957

3 жыл бұрын

“Sadly, the cross-eyed Bear”, and “Bitter Bitter the Angry Whale”........ 😆

@kie9683

3 жыл бұрын

@Person 1 explain?

@honeyOTU_

3 жыл бұрын

reminds me of a story my bf told me about how he used to read jesus books with his mom when he was little, and one page said "find Jesus" much like a where's Waldo book. he knew where Jesus was, but he pointed to a sheep to see how his mom would react because he thought it was funny, but she just got really angry at him instead :( and here I thought people were supposed to have a "childlike spirit" in the eyes of the lord :/

@Bullets632

3 жыл бұрын

@davy boy Never looked back lol.

@Bullets632

3 жыл бұрын

@@honeyOTU_ Insane how it can bring out the absolute worse in people. This happened when I was seven, and I remember it fondly.

Learning about this tactic has been so incredibly validating and eye opening. Growing up going to church and having very emotionally charged worship services throughout my life, these settings would often set me into an anxiety attack. All the crying, people shouting, falling down to their knees.. it felt SO incredibly intense I would sometimes have to walk out of the room with this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Something felt off but I thought it was just my “sinful flesh” fighting against the Holy Spirit. Sheesh😮‍💨

I had goosebumps in church a lot during worship. To me, that was proof the Holy Spirit. I joined the worship team and “felt” the presence of the Lord. Around the same time, I started driving. I often drove for fun, and had to drive to commute, and that meant I spent a lot of time alone, finally able to blast my own music instead of listening to whatever my parents wanted. I noticed that same goosebumps feeling started popping up frequently with this secular music. What was it? Was God with me in the car? I mean, God is everywhere of course but I don’t always feel him…why am I feeling him now? I put the chord progression together with the goosebumps. The music was triggering the sensation, not God. It did not immediately make me atheist, but it was one brick of my faith’s foundations removed.

I’m a former worship leader. I can attest to the inside dynamics. We were even made to mimic other worship band members in hand movements or dancing to create hype. It was a total manipulation of the crowd. And yes, the songs always coincided with the message. My favorites were the “surrender songs” followed by “tithe more” messages. **Eye roll**

@kaitlyn3168

3 жыл бұрын

I could feel that in the services i attended. It made me feel weird.

@patchwurk6652

3 жыл бұрын

I feel like Christian music services would be more effective if they mixed up the message a little bit. Like I know musical taste is totally subjective and all and this is totally a personal viewpoint, but "Christian Rock" might be the single greatest heresy ever committed against music. ...Okay maybe second-greatest, the 90's still has to answer for Vanilla Ice.

@patchwurk6652

3 жыл бұрын

@Eddie Olga Lol, I just love music with a bit of bite to it, y'know? And rock of all stripes did start as a rougher, more aggressive way to go with music that is supposed to have something of an anarchic aesthetic to it. "Christian Rock" meanwhile, feels like music written by old dudes trying and failing to use "something the kids like" to hammer in doctrine. Like there's only two real topics in Christian rock: "I'm a horrible person but then I found Jesus" and "Life sucks, save me Jesus!" Like say what you like about the Bible, but I gotta give credit where it's due: some of the stories in there would make for some kickass metal music. But noooo, it's all gotta be this sickeningly polite, whiny sounding junk where the singer's doing nothing but praising and kissing Jesus' ass. Like... Dudes, you're playing music in a church, I'm pretty sure everyone here's already onboard with Jesus, they don't need a reminder every damn line!

@kellypat125

3 жыл бұрын

Do you feel like this was done in a "I know exactly what I'm doing" malicious kind of way? Edit- just got to end of the video where he says he doesn't think it is done maliciously, which I would hope so. I go to a megachurch that has services just like what he described.

@kellypat125

3 жыл бұрын

@ODD EDDIES ODDIEDDIES OF APPENDICHTOMY why are you writing ewe?

This triggers my fight or flight response. I grew up in a evangelical church/cult and this is eerily accurate.

@CandyBlog

3 жыл бұрын

Same? I was never in an evangelical church but I’ve been to evangelical services. But if I’m ever in a service (even catholic mass I was raised Catholic ) I just feel like I have to LEAVE . Specially if everyone around me seems to be joining this weird emotional ritual wave . When I was a kid I’d have nightmares every time I had to go to church Bc of it.

@j.r.millstone

3 жыл бұрын

@@CandyBlog I guess they'd claim we're both demonic or something. lol

@karmatologist

3 жыл бұрын

Same for me now. I played guitar in the church band for many years. Eventually I quit once I gave up the faith and realized the emotional manipulation to which I was contributing.

@phataton8206

3 жыл бұрын

Amen brother

@ayarcy5303

3 жыл бұрын

Shit same. I mean I converted during my teen years, I didn't grow up in it, but still. I didn't expect my own response to be... Whatever this is.

You say you're an atheist, but I truly think you're doing God's work here! This is a wonderful video and your ending summary is beautifully well said! I am a Protestant and this basically happens at my church as well. I'm probably the only guy there who wishes we'd sing hymns, Gregorian chants, and other unpopular songs by non-mainstream Christian bands like Being As An Ocean. Everything you said matches my criticism of the church perfectly and I love that we've arrived at the same conclusion. These are predatory, cultish practices that I know Jesus Christ would abhor and would shame the church bands and pastors for leading people astray! These could very well be some of the same people that Matthew 7:21-23 describes! 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Proverbs 4:23 is a fantastic verse that all people ought to follow regardless of whatever they put their faith in, and it's a helpful reminder against anything that borders remotely on unhealthy behavior and detrimental thinking: "Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it."

I used to work in the media department of a larger church, and we 100% knew what we were doing.

@vjara94

11 ай бұрын

Are you for real? Where there talks about the topic? Or it was only you the one with these thoughts? Also interested in knowing something about the workplace, would be glad if you can share something, tnks

@derp195

11 ай бұрын

@@vjara94 No, there weren't actual talks about it - it was just something that everyone understood. We were there to evoke certain emotions in certain situations. For example, we'd brainstorm how to structure a particular segment of the service, and we'd discuss everything like camera angles, video transitions, backdrops, and even how to accentuate the swelling of the music using the sound board. We'd even joke over the radio, saying stuff like "is this too much?" Or "dial down the cheese lol" We knew exactly what we were doing - that was our job. We didn't discuss it in such cynical ways, and I think most people there thought it was ok because they saw it as creating an experience to lead people to God. That's an important matter of perspective imo. You can make it sound like they're horrible people pulling strings behind the scenes, but they were really mostly decent people pulling strings behind the scenes, because they thought they were doing something good. A couple of us were atheist (very much on the dl, never discussed openly) and we did take a pretty cynical approach to it. It was a game.

@vjara94

11 ай бұрын

@@derp195 thanks for the response, I never ever think about the people behind the scenes of mega churches like that, it's actually a big display and production, thanks again for the response

US church music: pretends to heal your depression European church music: gives you depression

@matarratas7206

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, and then is the catholic church that use the logic of Plato and have fun with children. XD

@madelainestein3579

3 жыл бұрын

Have you heard black church music it is so sad

@matarratas7206

3 жыл бұрын

@@madelainestein3579 No, I have not heard it

@pipeline789

3 жыл бұрын

In the middle ages church choirs were used to put fear in you, the moment you step into the church. They wanted the people to feel small in the of God.

@Spasiuka

3 жыл бұрын

And What about All other kind of Christian churches and cults? Oh, and jewish, muslim groups, etc? And let us not forget about child abuse in the sport world, schools, scouts, families, neighbours, friends and random psychopaths...!!!

I appreciate you adding the, "they mean no maliscious intent, and they mean well to the congregation." That's a great clarification

@TheSilverGate

3 жыл бұрын

Won't it depend on who you mean by "them"?. Religion uses a systematic indoctrination system thar works so well that millions never overcome it, they do know whst they are doing, that's why they try to get as many children as possible. The people at the top knows very well what they are doing and why.

@aaronnikels5706

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSilverGate he said the “vast majority”

Most of the first 60 years of my life being a Christian (charismatic for at least half) and having 2 pastors in the family and a music minister uncle I can honestly say - the whole process is a performance oriented, emotionally leading "ceremony." Very psychologically charged. As much as I tried I just could never fall for it.

I used to play drums at my local church for years. I noticed that when the volume and intensity goes up, people starts speaking in tongues. Crazy

I was in the sound booth with a friend during a worship service he was running. During a pre-chorus he turned to me and said, "Nothing like an emotional light raise." He perfectly timed large swooping lights to bring in the climax of the chorus. Multiple hands shot up. My mind was blown

@2degucitas

3 жыл бұрын

So, they are manipulating us deliberately

@i_am_snek

3 жыл бұрын

@@2degucitas Sort of? But I don't find it very useful to use such a broad definition of manipulation, which usually implies some sort of malintent. Would you call it manipulation if your favorite band was playing and they set off the fire columns, or the smoke machines, or the strobe lights? You could, but then is it not also manipulation when someone asks you what the weather is like? After all, they are using words to coax some expected behavior out of you.

@davehallam3894

3 жыл бұрын

I used to do the lighting in a large church, really enjoyed it, but yes it's all part of the show. 'enhancing the worship experience'. The reality it was a balance between putting on a show but not doing too much to get in people's faces etc. There was an art to it, but that's why it was fun, genuinely miss it.

@tripe2237

3 жыл бұрын

@@i_am_snek I think there is a difference between playing to the crowd and playing the crowd.

@JJ-qo7th

3 жыл бұрын

@@i_am_snek If you're just doing the manipulation to entertain, that's one thing. If you're doing the manipulation because you want to coerce compliance later, that's another.

I grew up going to a traditional Methodist church. The first time I went to one of these mega churches with a friend I was blown away by how calculated the whole production felt. It was more like musical theater than church.

@droop1snoot

3 жыл бұрын

I relate to this since I'm a Catholic and the only music in mass is with a choir, priest, or classic instruments like a piano or organ and not some drums or something. the masses with those big concerts feel fake for a lack of a better word I guess.

@DanielQwerty

2 жыл бұрын

@@droop1snoot yeah as a catholic aswell, these Protestant services just seem like religious music festivals(although I love it when the organ goes loud in catholic mass though)

@CHiCguitar

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah dude I grew up LCMS and the first time I went to a "non denominational" church I was like wtf is this ... it was so weird and I was incredibly uncomfortable. Once I was back to my Apostles creed and classic 4 verse hymns I felt safe lmao

@-Cheif

2 жыл бұрын

@@CHiCguitar bruh literally the same. Not to be mean to some protestant churches but that stuff is a little bit hippy dippy for my liking. It’s almost cringy, in a weird way… Whereas Catholic Mass is very straightforward (and normal I guess?). I’d be very uncomfortable in a church like that.

@Masternuckable

2 жыл бұрын

Oh God, the same. My youth group went to visit a megachurch and it creeped us the F out.

It's so crazy how true this is, especially for the church I used to go to. Even as a Christian, I found it really weird how, every time the sermon would close in prayer, they would play this sad emotional song on the piano. It never sat well with me. And I always felt guilty for not being loud enough during worship. The pastor would also make us feel guilty about that. One time he had people close their eyes in prayer and raise their hand if they felt conviction about something, promising that he wouldn't call us out, only to tell the congregation after hands were raised that we needed to come to the altar, that he could see who raised their hands so basically they cannot hide, and must go up to the altar. I felt so vulnerable and lied to. I'm so glad I'm an atheist now...

What finally made me face the music (pun intended) was writing a book about worship music and psychology. I was an avid supporter of science and the Bible being buddies and I was a worship leader. I… never finished it.

me enjoying life at 13: my school pastor: "imagine if your parents died right now..."

@vtmike13

3 жыл бұрын

😂

@zoomhugs

3 жыл бұрын

*mortal anxiety has entered the chat*

@pineapplepenumbra

3 жыл бұрын

We didn't have school pastors (we did have RE teachers, though, and they all seemed to be christians), but how about you ask them back, how could Heaven be Heaven for _them_ if someone they loved went to Hell? I've been asking religious people this question for decades (it highlights how one has to be a psychopath in order to be a follower of these ludicrous and utterly immoral belief systems), and the answers (or, more usually, lack of them) is telling.

@taurianferguson

3 жыл бұрын

@@pineapplepenumbra The question isn't such a stumper. Why do you think people couldn't answer it? I'd expect any adult Christian to have a decent response.

@pineapplepenumbra

3 жыл бұрын

@@taurianferguson "Why do you think people couldn't answer it?" Oh some of them can, but their answers show what an idiotic belief system it is. "I'd expect any adult christian to have a decent response." You might expect it, but I've *never* seen a decent response in many years of asking. Maybe you could be the first?

I knew there was a reason I couldn’t keep going to church. I always felt guilty and unholy. It all felt manipulative. But the music was always a bop

@hardworkingcriminal4873

3 жыл бұрын

@deziah rene Church music being a bop is hilariously funny

@alicesenz6374

3 жыл бұрын

@@kushjindal2939 bc they have the most experience with Christianity (in my experience at least. But if most Asian atheists also talk mostly about Christianity then idk)

@Chloe-qd5vx

3 жыл бұрын

@@kushjindal2939 I personally have trouble with the concepts in Abrahamic/Western religions but not Eastern ones. In fact I’d love to dive into Eastern religions but I don’t know where to start.

@matthewhenry9044

3 жыл бұрын

You would you deem innocent and holy?

@johanfijnvandraat9339

3 жыл бұрын

You got lucky then ;). When I was born (1987) the men and women were still sitting separately and people actually left the church later on due to a piano being added to the singing (before that it was just accapella lol). And these were whole note songs… just awful church hymns written God only knows when. Nothing funky whatsoever. While more instruments were added later on, the music in church still sucked for the most part. If we had had music at the level of black gospel music, I might have stayed a bit longer haha.

You totally forgot the most important part of the service. The part where they pass around the offering plate and talk to you about tithing for 20 minutes. Couldn’t have church service without that!

This is absolutely how my church experience was! From a small child all the way up to adulthood. I ate it up! Used every worship session to connect to God and it was the only time I truly felt connected to him. It makes sense and I really appreciate how you explain it! I left the church a while ago and have sense realized that it wasn't God. It was my powerful emotions that made me feel that way. I can recreate that passion for other more positive things

When I was a Christian, I often heard other Christians talk about a worship service where "the Spirit really moved" or "the presence of God was really strong" or "I really felt God's presence," etc., but later came to realize that it was just as GMS said, the worship leader creating an emotion. Thank you so much for making this video. You articulated it so well.

@colepuleo6809

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed!

@four-x-trading5606

2 жыл бұрын

Literally every church I been to claims the same crap

@depressedphilosopherbitch7581

Жыл бұрын

They say that shit in my church ALL the time. Or my parents say it after a prayer session we have as a family. And I'm like: I FELT NOTHING. I've felt nothing since I was 12.

@blitzball4lyfe823

Жыл бұрын

That is very well put. I used to serve in a worship team for a long time and I talked with a friend one Sunday. I told them that I always hear other team members saying after service, “The Holy Spirit moved”, “The Spirit was heavy today”, “God was moving in this place” with all the women crying and whatnot. I asked why is it that no one says things like this when the music is bad and they couldn’t come up with an answer. It wasn’t long after that I realised as a musician on the team that I was being used. It was surely a shitty feeling after remembering all the false promises my leadership would give me and tell me how “valuable” I was and that I was a “part of the family” but no one who was a leader in that church ever wanted anything to do with me outside of the shit we had to get done and I fell for it for years believing it was true. I’ve never been more glad to be out of that place than I am right now.

As someone who went to a church like this, it is legitimately scary how accurate this video is. This brought back so many feelings and experiences I couldn’t even describe. I legitimately thought I was back for a second.

@bangsandbullets

3 жыл бұрын

Like even the Christian buzzwords and vernacular was deadon!

@mism847

3 жыл бұрын

It's weird looking at Christian culture at close hold as a lifelong atheist. Makes it more clear how they brainwash people.

@anime.soundtracks

3 жыл бұрын

yeah the minor chords are so powerful

@samlladavid

3 жыл бұрын

Same, I even started recalling some good feelings about being in that kind of trance, it’s eye opening how indoctrination works in my adult brain! I’m glad I’m out of there

@siriuspope3552

3 жыл бұрын

I read this comment at the beginning of the video and was like "how could this video bring back the feeling of being in again" and 7 minutes later I'm writing this comment as phantasms flash through my mind like a freaking war veteran so yea no you were right... you get the W today.

I was forced to go to a thing like that a few months ago. I cried at the end, because I knew how it works, I knew that it's specifically made to influence your emotions, I knew that it's made to influence you, but it still worked. I felt the emotions. I felt cheated, because the people there said that it's God, but I knew it wasn't. I knew that they were emotionally manipulating me, but my knowledge wasn't enough. It worked.

In hindsight, this is accurate...having been a worship leader in that type of service for a number of years. Thank you for articulating this.

@whatabouttheearth

Жыл бұрын

I suggest reading 'Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brain-washing' by William Sargant

one time my parents sent me to see a spiritual healer because i felt i couldn’t ‘connect with god’ while everyone else in my church was raising their hands, speaking in tongues etc. she literally told me to ‘fake it til you make it.’

@johnb8940

3 жыл бұрын

Funnily enough, that was Pascal's recommendation for how people who struggled with faith were to become convinced. Yea. It doesn't work.

@LukeMcGuireoides

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. You simply become an accomplished faker, like everyone else

@wintergirlb8367

2 жыл бұрын

I went to a pentecostal college and felt like I was the only one who graduated having never been "baptised in the holy spirit" I was definitely judged for that.

@trishapellis

2 жыл бұрын

Which now makes me wonder just how many people never 'made it' and are still faking for the sake of not standing out. If everyone who was just faking it stopped, how many would be left?

@trishapellis

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nyla_Corvina I also consider that probable, but I would like some more empirical evidence before dismissing everything. The human brain is a strange beast and it can do a lot of weird things. That's without mentioning things like mental illness which I believe might actually be able to make some of this happen. For example, the voices of schizophrenia sound much friendlier and like friends or family members in Asian and African cultures (which frequently have a belief that your ancestors are on par with other powerful spirits and watch over you and help you directly), so who knows what they would do in an Evangelical who actually believes in what they're doing. That's the only example I can think of right now, but I wonder.

Having grown up in a church like this, it makes so much sense why they do this. It totally works. I have not been a Christian for a few years now, and even still, when I hear “In Christ Alone”, I tear up and my emotions are moved.

@splaar

3 жыл бұрын

It's crazy how the lasting effect works. It's been a few years for me too but every time I hear a few certain worship songs, it's like I'm 15 at church camp all over again

@thedeadpianist

3 жыл бұрын

god i felt that ugh

@kyoyameganebereznoff

3 жыл бұрын

I still find the sound of a crowd quietly saying the Lord’s Prayer to be very comforting.

I worked as a music minister for many years and can confirm so much of this. In fact, it was the recognition of this that began my move away from the church. I saw behind the scenes and it left me feeling empty. I was tasked with creating those emotional responses, priming people to experience “something.” Toward the end, it all rang so hollow. I was desperately sad and confused. I have not been to church in quite a while now, and am sorting through my own personal history in the church. My dad is a pastor, so I grew up in that environment. It feels odd, yet somewhat comforting to see it now from the outside.

By the time I got to ministry school for college, I’d been to a ton of concerts and by the time I I went to school was trying to recognize the “spirit of God” my classmates claimed to feel. To me I got the same feeling at a Grateful Dead show. Eventually I realized most of my classmates were inexperienced outside of the church so they wouldn’t have made that connection. We would also have “breakout services” that always seemed to happen when someone picked up a hand drum. Again, where I came from, we called that a drum circle, nothing new there. I’m glad I left the church(and eventually my Christianity) but I totally understand why some people stay. There are a lot of people I know successful in fields inside the Christian community that would not survive in the same secular field. Your life and career eventually depend on your need to believe.

If you spoke with a Pagan, this is actually considered a form of “Black Magic.”

@lucalinadreemur9448

2 жыл бұрын

@AeonReign in my experience it's mostly wood Wiccans who claim all faiths are secretly the same. Most pagans I've interacted with realize that paganism is an umbrella term that mostly refers to anything other than Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, or Buddhism, but they tend to band together with other believers of a vastly different belief system in solidarity.

@ggates5371

2 жыл бұрын

@@lucalinadreemur9448 magick wasn’t restricted to Paganism. The church has always practiced magick. The only thing that determines if something is pagan or not is theism -whether a religion is polytheism or monotheism.

@The_Serpent_of_Eden

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. I'm a witch (solitary, no tradition) and it is clear these are black masses in service of some evil. Mammon, usually, at least in the prosperity gospels, but with the current fascist movement, I'd say something more warlike. I used to look at Christianity as wrong but relatively harmless--i was very, very wrong.

@SenhorAlien

2 жыл бұрын

@@ggates5371 I'd thought paganism was anything that wasn't Christian.

@blowitoutyourcunt7675

2 жыл бұрын

@@SenhorAlien Christianity (catholicism really) wholesale ate a bunch of pagan practices wherever they conquered to ensure they ensnared the the city folk and heathens (folks from the countryside) into their way of thinking, can't win join then mentality (Ostara was a pagan spring equinox tradition and now it's Easter). Look at the voodoo loas who are all transferred into Patron Saints when Christianity took over Haiti to ensure their pantheon didn't dissappear into another religion - they hid it in plain sight instead! Religions eat each other all the time, they evolve just as much as people to survive.

I used to always think that these 'spiritual highs' that I got were God revealing his love to me until I realized that I can get the same feeling listening to any kind of music.

@trishamason1855

3 жыл бұрын

Also, any kind of advertisement with kittens or babies or family get together. Kid comes home from military for Xmas leave, sneaks in and makes coffee, gotcha!

@gwkonyoutube

3 жыл бұрын

Especially music that's extremely dark or painful sonically and lyrically, something you'd never hear in church

This is a 2 year old post so who's gonna hear it but the vid struck a cord so here goes: About 20 years ago I was searching for meaning in my life and i went with a friend to a american preacher that came to the church (this was in Holland) my friend that found god (his family was religious and he returned) and we listened to the passionate speaker who asked those that doubted to come forward and also told that if those that doubted didn't step forward now, they would never be saved. I ignored that (and recounting it with my friend and his family, they hadn't even taken real notice) and came forward, for the entire church, people all looking at me, the entire place quiet but for the speaker and the thumping of my own heart and I stood before him. He told me my sins were forgiven and some other things and I actually fell down when he touched me. The experience was immense... standing there before all those people. I had no network to fall back on and get me easily back to church and it didn't make me stop searching. And chiefly, what blasted through my mind through the entire experience as I was standing before the preacher was "it's not what you believe, it's what you do". I never told my friend this and I never did find religion. Now I'm skeptically agnostic, or something something not tied down and minimally spiritual, but I'm at peace over it.

I've been struggling with a "loss of faith" for a while now. Your videos have helped me deal with it. This video specifically helped me recall experiences I had in my teen years, even though my religious background is not protestant (I followed Spiritism, which is basically a kind of Christianity that also believes in communication with spirits and reincarnation). Music played a very important part in the activities in the Houses (Spiritist version of churches). When I was a teenager, every year I participated in a kind of camp for Spiritist teens during Carnaval week, and as soon as I became an adult, I started working as a volunteer in these camps. Music was carefully chosen for the activities we had, and the whole week usually had one theme song, which was supposed to inspire us in our studies, meditation and work during camp. I felt incredibly connected to the Spirituality Above, to Christ and his team of benevolent Spirits, and to God... But most times I also caught myself questioning if what I had experienced during Camp wasn't just the product of me really wanting to be connected to a higher power. I felt that I was failing my duties to Christ, because I couldn't see spirits, because no life-changing experiences ever happened to me during Camp, and because deep down I knew I wasn't fulfilling the plan that the Spirituality had for me. I won't lie and say that I've 100% let go the beliefs that were taught to me in the Spiritist movement, but I really question them. It brings me a lot of anxiety, but watching your videos, I find new tools for questioning things that I have doubts about, and also accepting that, no, I won't have an answer for everything, but not having a answer doesn't mean that what was taught to me is automatically correct. I'll keep searching answers, and I'll keep trying to be a better person, regardless of ethereal beings that may or may not exist.

There were several times where i showed up late and missed most of the music and it felt like god wasn’t “there” as much. It makes so much sense looking back.

@MorningMindfulness

3 жыл бұрын

Church without music just feels like getting lectured by your uncle lol

@liana3886

3 жыл бұрын

@@MorningMindfulness I’m an atheist feom Czech Republic (so no much surprise there), but in middle school I was in a school choir that was on a very high level, we practiced a lot and went to many competitions. We also sang some religious songs (a small part of our repertuar), but here is the kicker - they were all in eighter Latin or Italian. We didn’t really know what they were about, the reason why we sang them was their melody and difficulty. We practiced them tons of times but we never felt “Godly presence”, since it was acapela (like pretty much any choir) and we were focused on holding the tune of our group and performing the right techniques. We also had week practices in Slovakia where we would rent a cabin in the mountains and practice the singing for the whole week. There was a small church nearby and we would hold a concert in there to wrap the week up and show the fruits of our practice. It was the first time when I was in the church and it was a whole service too (we performed after it) and it was exactly that - just a pastor standing there, talking, reading some bible and I was wondering when it would end. And when we sang the songs we felt just like during any other concert or competition: nervous at first, then completly immersed in our singing and then satisfied with our job well done. We never felt any kind of “Godly presence” even though we sang a lot of religious songs in there (because it’s church duh). But I can straight up tell you that songs do affect our emotions a lot. That was a challenge we had to face, because showing some emotions during singing is supposed to be good, but not in choir competitive world. If you sing emotionally you lose control of your voice and it screws up the whole harmony of the choir. So we had to learn to be focused on our voice, tone and techniques during singing and let the emotions be there in the back of your mind. And that is the reason I never felt “Godly presence” during singing - because we were focused on the whole different aspect of singing the song.

@carawadley317

3 жыл бұрын

From the perspective of a Christian, I would challenge that you don't go to church to "feel God" (cringe, even typing that made me uncomfortable), but to worship regardless of how you are feeling and connect with other believers. I think the traditional evangelical church model has left many Christians disillusioned for many of the reasons listed in this video. I worship God in "spirit and truth", and the truth is always there even when I don't feel the spirit. Obviously not telling you what to believe, just throwing in my 2 cents, and wanted to rant a bit against the emotional manipulation too! 😉

@liana3886

3 жыл бұрын

@@carawadley317 I totally believe you about this. I have very good friends who are rational Christians (in a sense that God for them is a guide on their life path rather than being the path itself) and they themselves told me that for them, church isn’t even really needed for following God’s words - Bible is and small gatherings / groups ( a youth group in their case ) is as effective. They really follow God’s words rather than blindly believing everything that is said in the church and they never shunned our lesbian classmate back in high school, because although they disagree with it, it is not their life, therefore not their place to comment on it, and being hateful is against the very fundamental way of Christianity. They are lovely people and they are my image of actual Christians, rather than the extremist or the protesters who shout hateful words all day long we see so often on the internet. You also seem like a great person ☺️

@carawadley317

3 жыл бұрын

@@liana3886 Yay! They seem like very thoughtful Christians, and I'm glad your experience with them has been positive! THAT is what being a true Christian is really like ❤ There are not as many hateful Christians as the world likes to think there are, but unfortunately, as in most things, they have the loudest voice.

This honestly helped me so much. One time during college I was invited to a service with some Christian friends, and the music they played definitely felt like emotional manipulation. I had to leave the room just to breathe afterwards, and it made me feel physically ill to remain there while they played the same sections of the same songs over and over again, surrounded by people singing and swaying as if in trance.

@alyssafoster4765

3 жыл бұрын

I had a bit of that same feeling when I went to an online church service. It felt uncomfortable

@catboat863

3 жыл бұрын

Yep I had that exact experience as I started questioning my faith. The worship services started to become physically overwhelming and I would get massive anxiety, always had to leave and tell my friends I was going to the bathroom

@anothercat1300

3 жыл бұрын

I experienced this too.

@blamtasticful

3 жыл бұрын

What's worse is when that started happening to me, being raised in this culture the thoughts that would come to you is that this negative feeling was because you were rebelling and fighting against the work of the Holy Spirit which you know is real. Going to a radical televangelist church radically ruined my experience on the beauty of worship services.

@anothercat1300

3 жыл бұрын

@@blamtasticful You should check out an Orthodox church. They worship in the same way Christians in the 3rd century worshiped. It's unchanged and is alien compared to Western christianity. It's a hospital for my mind in a world gone mad. Protestantism is rebelling against the work of the Holy Spirit. So your feelings were true while you surrounded yourself with that nonsense. You won't find that feeling in a place that still practices the Holy Tradition passed down by the Apostles themselves. It's still a culture shock for me. People there are Loving in a way that would repair the most broken person I know. Coming from a world of abuse and manipulation this has given me great hope.

As an ex-church band singer / guitarist, I can tell you there was the same feeling of the ‘holy spirit’ in church as there was at any other good gig I played with other bands outside church. We always thought it was just to get people ‘in the mood’ lol

I grew up in a Christian household with my mom and stepfather. Though my stepfather's actions made me question religion and eventually leave it. I do remember one church day in particular that has stuck with me. I was about 10 years old at the time (31 now), and I hated church. It was long, boring, and ate one of my two days off school. Though it's a topic for a different day, my stepfather became a different person, a Saint to everyone, a devil to my mom and I. I bring this up because church wasn't a "safe place" for me. It felt like I didn't belong. But one day, almost like a trance, I noticed that my hand was raised and that I was singing. I used to think the adults doing this looked dumb, so to be doing it myself, I felt confused, even a little scared. It became a defining moment of my life. It caused me to question myself and religion, but for a brief moment in my young life, I started to believe it.

My father is a baptist pastor and I was raised in the church. But for some reason the music never moved me, I was always only ever bored, I hated standing up for the singing of hymns and always was impatiently waiting for it to finally be over ...

@Flint_the_uhhh

3 жыл бұрын

This is exactly my experience. I hated standing because I literally felt nothing. My brother and I were the awkward ones because we never swayed our bodies or moved. We just always stood there, looking at every other person, waiting for the music to stop. A couple times, people would come over to us and try to make us move or dance a little, but it was just always so awkward. I used to think it was just because of how socially awkward we were as children and that it was my fault for being like that.

@galacticbob1

3 жыл бұрын

I went to a Christian college that had a mandatory daily chapel service. We all knew which song leader loved the song "I Stand In Awe" and we all knew how much he loved his particular "arrangement". He would give explicit instructions to sit during the first verse, and only rise at the chorus ("I stand, I stand, in awe of you..."). We would spend a good 90 seconds of any chapel service where he was songleader reviewing these instructions before starting the song. It was always the most anti-climactic "emotional moment" I've ever been part of. It's like when someone tells the same joke everyday, but also has to explain to the fully each time before telling it, just to make sure they've completely drained any potential humor from the situation. My roommate and I ended up making a high-tempo EDM remix of this solemn praise song (a double whammy since the school forbid using any instruments as part of worship!) and distributed it around the fledgling campus intranet. I still hear the beat drop every time the chorus kicks in... 😈

@aimliard2276

3 жыл бұрын

@@Flint_the_uhhh I can relate with their disgustingly happy faces, daring to touch us, waiting for the waste of time to stop go back home and watch Stargate.

@adamplentl5588

3 жыл бұрын

@Khush Bakht Khan not a single supportable statement in there.

@waterlily2743

3 жыл бұрын

Right? up, down, up, down. I would Go to my friend's church and wondered why we bothered sitting at all when we just had to stand back up again in 5 minutes.

I used to go to church and not sing because I didn’t believe in any of it. Everyone would give me glares for just standing there. It’s too funny when I look back at it now😂

@Graeme_Lastname

3 жыл бұрын

Common sense is often rejected by those who don't have it.

@cambamx5003

3 жыл бұрын

Been there. Its like I'm just standing there waiting for it to end so we can go eat.

@littlebirdling238

3 жыл бұрын

Same here😆

@lloydtucker5647

3 жыл бұрын

In my former church, those who didn't sing or _"worship"_ when the music was playing were preached against righ after the song service.

@unknownx7252

3 жыл бұрын

I slept through most of it as a kid, bought into it as an adult but it made me depressed so I left.

This is spot on; I played for a church band for years, and while everyone who played seemed to be pretty faithful, we all acknowledged the importance of setting the mood right with a fun upbeat song to start and a similar formula you explained as the service progressed. We also always picked songs and sounds to accommodate what the pastor wanted to do in their sermon.

Being part of a worship team for years can 100% confirm this. Even at our church camp we planned the whole week around "weaping Wednesday" tailored each service and music set to get the kids in that place by Wednesday so the rest of the week could spawn "natural" growth

As someone who has served in worship ministry for multiple contemporary churches, I can attest to the amount of production that goes into the "weekend experience". It's no longer just matching songs to the sermon topic. A tremendous amount of planning, skill and rehearsal is involved to make lighting, audio, visuals, and transitions create a wave of emotion ranging from contemplative to jubilant and back. Any performance with that high of a production value will seem magical to the audience.

@bellezavudd

3 жыл бұрын

The devils in the details. ,seems fitting.

@jennoscura2381

3 жыл бұрын

There is a video where an audio engineer goes over running the mixer for a church service. There is a lot of finessing of the audio to get the music and sermon to sound right.

@JamesRichardWiley

3 жыл бұрын

Equal to a 3D movie with direct involvement to make the mental images as real as you want them to be.

@alext3811

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I guess for bigger churches. I went to a smaller one in affluent suburbs as a child, and the visuals and audio were well produced. I didn't stay for the adult part, but the lighting wasn't fancy other than dimming. They had a decent soundboard in the secondary church (Korean church win the original (smaller building), youth services used lower floor), and a Mac, looked professional. Anyone can create "magic" in those ways, just look at bands like BTS where their fans *sometimes* (not all, I like thier songs, but many go too far), worship them. Ironically that gets back to my topic. That's just what I've expierenced

@thedivineconsciousness

3 жыл бұрын

yep so true

The funny thing is, you can get a very similar experience at an EDM concert. The music prims you to start moving, they up the beat song by song until you get to this explosion of tempo and volume when everyone in the crowd is moving as one. That feeling of oneness with the people around you is beautiful, but it’s not god, it’s us.

@sunphoenix1231

3 жыл бұрын

Well to me it's the same, the things that bind people together. There's a reason PLUR is the mantra of concerts. People coming together to share an experience. That people find that community where they can, some just go for all the concerts and make a life of it. Or things like Burning Man which is a bit difference but yet another compelling experience.

@makagingray2086

3 жыл бұрын

It is us. And God. We are God. Collectively.

@Claire-tk4do

23 күн бұрын

"It's not god, it's us" is such a beautiful phrase, evoking the beauty of simply being together intentionally as humans and making and enjoying beautiful things (such as music performances) together. WE are awe-inspiring, too!

I recently discovered your KZread channel and I love it. I’m not religious (identify as agnostic if I must) but I was raised in the Mormon faith in a predominantly Catholic country so I grew up knowing those two traditions very well. Later in life I studied anthropology and ethnomusicology in the USA and have since done some research on specific musical practices in church services (a local church, a very progressive one btw, even invited me to give a lecture on the history of American hymnody as their Sunday sermon once). Still, I had never experienced the kind of Protestant service you describe here (I had attended traditional Methodist and Lutheran services before though) until about a month ago when one of the church musicians at a local Baptist church invited me to attend his church services to hear him play. As an ethnomusicologist, I couldn’t help myself and was taking notes the whole time on the format of the liturgy, the musical styles, tempos, forms, genres, audience participation, lighting, stage setting. It was fascinating. As you say, there is great diversity in how different churches structure their services but many similarities too. In all of them music plays a crucial role. I’d go as far as to suggest that nearly all forms of religion utilize music in one form or another to engage with the divine/supernatural, possibly going back to prehistoric times (I have acquired a Durkheimian view of religion over the years 😉). Anyway loved this video. Thank you. 🙂

It was so weird when I went to the first service after I left the church; the music was making me cry even though I was dead inside for the message. It was surreal. Also, that re-enactment was enough to get my skin crawling, you nailed it so well… almost too well!

Went to church twice every Sunday for 18 years, had no spiritual experience whatsoever. Went to one single European Hardcore party (Pandemonium in Amsterdam) and I finally discovered what my parents wanted me to experience in church. I'll never go back to church, but man am I addicted to that feeling.

@clemfandango6897

3 жыл бұрын

it's such a good feeling. went to hardcore till i die and holy cow the energy of that room was insane

@danteaghoulfromspace2996

3 жыл бұрын

not a fan of hardcore perse, but i did go to a (psy)trance/techno party in Leeuwarden called Ana Hata or something like that, the lighting, the sound, the people (most of which high as kites), good times

@MickMikka

3 жыл бұрын

Mdma is a hell of a drug

@Nanokarp

3 жыл бұрын

@@MickMikka I wouldn't know, never tried any drugs. But they do say that, yes

I went to my first service since childhood recently for my gf, it’s crazy how blatantly obvious their manipulation tactics are

@travis6694

3 жыл бұрын

How do you feel about dating someone who likes to go and you don’t anymore

@LukeMcGuireoides

2 жыл бұрын

Good question. I dont think i could do it. Maybe, if they belonged to one of those progressive churches I recently heard about

@rnbsteenstar

2 жыл бұрын

That can be used for bad or good!

@__idfk__

2 жыл бұрын

After a very severe wreck last year that caused life-threatening injuries to me, my great grandma and great aunt literally forced me to go to their church and give a speech on how "God gave me a second chance at life because he was calling me back from atheism." It was complete bullshit. Apart from describing my injuries and experience in the hospital, I was just lying my way through it, and they ate it up. The entire time I was there, I thought, "God didn't do jack shit to keep me alive. That was 100% the doctors, nurses, and physical therapists that worked with me every hour of the day to make sure I recovered." Christians are so easily manipulated it's insane. (Edited for typos and grammar correction)

@waynemiller6070

2 жыл бұрын

Same

Boy you went in on this one bro, this takes me back to my church days as well. It's been a wild ride my friend, but here we are, the stronger for it.

This video was very eye-opening for me. Having attended multiple youth conferences and similar events myself, I admit I had never given much thought to how those events emotionally influence people into “feeling God’s presence.” I related to a lot of the tactics discussed in this video, especially the usage of worship songs and heart-rending speeches/sermons to get people to “give it all to God.”

I was a musician in a catholic charismatic renewal group, and the meetings were structured basically like you described. Everybody knew that music played a key role, and we were expected to perform in a way so as to increase the emotional message of the preaching. Of course, at the time, I refused to think of this as emotional manipulation, but now that I'm an atheist, I can say it absolutely is.

@vettel92

3 жыл бұрын

Same here. It's scary how I didn't see right through what I've brrn doing. I remember preparing the songs playlist with my friend and we knew exactly where to put each song to emulate each mood...creepy!

So basically: God is real but just in case he never makes an appearance, we’re gonna use some manipulation techniques to trick you into “feeling his presence”.

@natalia-yg8gh

3 жыл бұрын

Creation is proof of a Creator.

@crucifiddle

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, Jesus and God are real, but just in case we'll make are service look like a Kiss concert!😁

@oregondude9411

3 жыл бұрын

@@natalia-yg8gh and that logic is beyond flawed and idiotic.

@erenjager4698

3 жыл бұрын

Fair enough but then who created God?

@oregondude9411

3 жыл бұрын

@@erenjager4698 exactly. We do not know. So anyone who believes they KNOW God either does or doesn't exist is wrong. You CAN'T know. Therefore Christians and Atheists are in the same boat. 2 sides of the same ignorant coin.

This is an incredible unveiling of truth. Though wouldn’t dream of going back you helped heal why a part of me would missed that feeling and I can’t thank you enough. Real truth is a healing salve. Thank you so much. 💖 I love the work you do.

I was raised in a church where "speaking in tongues" was seen as evidence that you were filled with the "Holy Spirit." Of course, since I believed at that time, I wanted that experience. I eventually forced myself to make the kinds of sounds others had been making, and convinced myself that I had finally received "the gift of tongues." After that, whenever there was a meeting of Christians from my church, there would be praying and "speaking in tongues," and I would happily join in. Then in the 11th grade, I was sitting in Spanish class in high school. The teacher had given us some time to work on pronunciation, either on our own or in small groups. As a result, there was a buzz of barely-audible foreign language speaking going on around me. Without thinking, I quietly started "speaking in tongues." However, after a few seconds, I suddenly realized that I was behaving in a "conditioned response" way, like Pavlov's dogs. That was the first crack in my "spiritual" armor, and eventually I became an atheist, as I came to realize that there was no reason to believe any of the things I had been taught.

The difference is drastic between attending one of these services as a believer and as a non-believer. I remember going to church and feeling that convicting feeling every once in a while as a believer. Then I attended a service a couple months ago (I was visiting my grandparents) and it was so very strange. Everyone around me was convicted with some people bawling, but I felt absolutely nothing. Crazy how a change of mindset can flip an entire experience.

@allycinwunderland

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the services used to feel light and bright and full of praise but now they seem totally creepy and uncomfortable and cult like.

@the_sky_is_blue_and_so_am_I

Жыл бұрын

​@@allycinwunderland yes

You nailed it. You've successfully described what my life was like 10 years ago.

@proculusjulius7035

3 жыл бұрын

Crucified it, I dare say.

@proculusjulius7035

3 жыл бұрын

@Chinedu Atisele 😂😂🙋

When I went to Christian school it was exactly how you described in your video. The emotional music, colorful lighting, the money basket passed around, people being encouraged to go up to the front to confess sins. I always hated it, I felt conflicted because everyone else was crying or praying while I was uncomfortable and bored. I always felt like I was being forced into faith, and if I expressed this feeling I was told I just didn't have enough of it. Honestly acid gives me more of a spiritual experience than these cheesy, fake, and melodramatic church services did. These are glorified speaking engagements and mini concerts.

Yes! Thank you for putting this together and explaining it so well.

Drew, I want to thank you for helping me through my deconstruction in 2020 at 57 years old. You’re helping me past my angry atheist stage. I needed Matt Dillahunty for a while, but your obvious compassion and respectful way of approaching topics has helped me immensely in my own approach. Keep doing your thing!

@fluffyduckbutt24

2 жыл бұрын

51, Ditto

@charlestonguitarclinic

2 жыл бұрын

@Scott Poll thank you! And all the best to you!

@luisbedolla144

2 жыл бұрын

I just left christianity and it irritates me so much how blind I was and how blindly people spread christianity (friends and family). Sometimes I just want to snap and show them these videos but I hold back for the sake of persevering good relationships

@ImOddTodd

2 жыл бұрын

I slowly deconverted myself in my early 50s and was a worship leader from the time I was 16. Yeah, went through a lot of anger and read a lot to deprogram myself. Now, I can look at the good and bad of my former christian life with a level head and get along just fine with "the deceived." So glad to be free, sad for the wasted time, and moving forward with the time I have left -right along with my lovely christian wife.

This was so familiar I almost felt triggered! lol and I stopped going to church 10 years ago. Just goes to show, when you're programmed in this kind of environment from the day you were born, that shit can run deep, even long after you turn away from it.

@fanieljairtonjairton4234

3 жыл бұрын

I still caught myself unconsciously doing things from that time, I still have to go to church because but it's already two since I began to realize the problems and became an atheist

@JamesRichardWiley

3 жыл бұрын

The music carries the message.

My deconstruction started purely by accident (though it's been a long and painful, baby steps journey) I was completely happy and loved worship service...so this video definitely stirred up some...emotions🤓 Honestly, I do miss what I felt and occasionally mourn that it's not real. But what I mourn more...all of the time, money and relationships I sacrificed at the alter. That said, the genie can never be corked and I don't want it to...I've never felt so free or whole as a person as I do now and funny enough I know more about the bible and it's authors and origins than I did during my 42 years as a christian. I harbor no ill feelings toward christians or pastors I've had, I choose to believe the best in people first...but I do feel like and idiot for all of the completely asinine argues I believe and repeated🤦‍♂️ Thank you so much for your videos and sharing your story of deconstruction...our paths had a great number of similarities. I've been so impressed by the Atheist community that I was so wrong about for so long and love hearing people's stories.