Chinese Crossbow History of Song Dynasty
Ғылым және технология
This is my reproduction of a 11th century Song Dynasty Military Crossbow from China.
These were feared by the Mongols due to its effectiveness against Mongolian lamellar armor and shields.
The primary difference of these middle age weapons compared to ancient crossbows from China is the addition of the stirrup and a shorter powerstroke on average (based on archeological finds and artwork). We have more written evidence of horn prods in the Song Dynasty unlike ancient crossbows with scarce written proof of horn prods.
Modern firearm features like the trigger, the sear, the tumbler, the trigger guard, the sights, and the "pistol grip" are ancient inventions and revived in Song Dynasty China.
Sources:
From contemporary literature the Song era Divine Crossbow variant imply like it has a powerstroke of around 13-14 inches based on string length: In 1068, the Deputy Capital Commander Zhang Ruoshui and Commissioner of the Western Upper military district, Li Ping, were first summoned to consider and improve upon the simple-prod crossbow. Zhang Ruoshui came up with a new design for the crossbow and it was recommended by Li Hong and was actually a [new] variety of crossbow. The stock was made of mulberry and the prods of sandalwood. It had a stirrup made of iron and the arrow channel and latch were made of the bronze used to make spearheads. The string was hemp wound with silk. The stock was three [Chinese] feet and two inches (1 m) in length and the length of the string was two feet five inches (78 cm). The arrows were wood with fletching and a few inches long. It could penetrate a log of elm up to half an arrow-length fired from a distance of over 340 paces. - Song Shi, translation from Stephen Selby
From the Song source Cui Wei Xian Sheng Bei Zheng Lu:
──跷镫弩:牙里一尺八寸五分,葫芦头四寸,木檐长五尺八寸
Qiao Deng crossbow: Within teeth 1 chi 8 cun 5 fen. Gourd head 4 cun. Wooden prod 5 chi 8 cun.
──神臂弩:桩牙里一尺八寸,葫芦头四寸,镫二尺,桩长二尺三寸,角檐长四尺五寸。
Divine Arm crossbow: Within stock teeth 1 chi 8 cun, gourd head 4 cun, stirrup 2 chi, stock length 2 chi 3 cun. Horn prod length 4 chi 5 cun
──锹头弩:桩二尺,葫芦头五寸,镫五寸,山口五寸,锹头五寸,桩凡长四尺,木檐长七尺。
An artillery crossbow
Also
"If the prod is longer than 6 chi and if the stock is longer than 3 chi(38.8 inches), then at the shoulder the crossbow prod will tip toward the ground, and below there is the problem of tripping, when stepping on such a crossbow the stock head will reach the chest, so above there is no pulling strength…… At present day we want to use crossbows with draw strength of 2 stone to 3 stone (~264 lbs to ~397 lbs)…… The crossbow prod should be 5 chi(1.6 meters) to 6 chi(1.9 meters), and cannot be too long, so that short soldiers can easily shoot it at the shoulder. "
(Cui Wei Xain Sheng Bei Zheng Lu)
They were expected to shoot and then probably either retreat behind rows and rows of infantry at the last moment, or have the infantry behind them advance forward to protect them:
See Goose File formation from the Wujingzongyao with crossbowmen and archers shown at the very front
Special thanks to HackneyedScribe for the help with research and guidance
0:00 Intro
0:20 Components
2:20 History
9:35 Zoomed in
11:04 Testing outside
Пікірлер: 160
Woo hoo! This was such a fun project - great video! I’m looking forward to the next one- all you subscribers are going to LOVE it!!!
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Can't wait! Can’t spoil but heres a hint - it’s not in china
@marcellusbrutus3346
Жыл бұрын
@@HistoricalWeapons omg make a greek crossbow or japanese one
You even talk like Ian with the "and...."
@marcellusbrutus3346
Жыл бұрын
Thanks for staying tuned to another video at FW, and today......
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
And
Truely forgotten weapon
@busurbusur2381
Жыл бұрын
That’s mass produced
@dingdong4156
Жыл бұрын
Unlike things like a47 ppsh and mg42
1st. Song Crossbow, where the weapon reached its apex in China.
@zhangtony3372
Жыл бұрын
Why Apex
@zhangtony3372
Жыл бұрын
Why not Han
@dingdong4156
Жыл бұрын
Apex is 21st century
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@dingdong4156 technically yea the 21st century crossbows are the most advanced lmao
@426mak
Жыл бұрын
@@zhangtony3372 Here's why kzread.info/dash/bejne/d3WCpsSnl6nUdJc.html
Thank you for continuing to research this topic & reconstruct historical Chinese crossbows. It's fascinating how the Song military treatise the Wujing Zongyao describes crossbows used in rotating volleys & claims the crossbow is the best weapon if used properly. In theory, this sounds plausible, given the success rotating volleys with firearms had centuries later. However, the Song dynasty ran into lots of military trouble in the decades after the Wujing Zongyao was complied.
@markdennis254
Жыл бұрын
Probably because an untrained peasant with a bow outputs 50 joules while a crossbow with his legs outputs 220 joules
@markdennis254
Жыл бұрын
Meanwhile bows from trained archers are in between but expensive
@b.h.abbott-motley2427
Жыл бұрын
@@markdennis254 It's yet to be proven that this type of crossbow manages 220 J. If it does, I'm skeptical an "untrained peasant" could span it. Cheng Zongyou's crossbow manual from much later explicitly states that shooting well with a bow is difficult & recommends a type of crossbow instead on that basis. Cheng's manuals address how to turn peasants into soldiers; this process involved training. Crossbows, pike, & sword were apparently easier to large than archery, but we're still not talking about untrained peasants. (The style of crossbow Cheng used was different from earlier Chinese crossbows & described as weaker than a weak bow most anyone could draw.)
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 an untrained peasant can easily span 150lb@22”. (Modern crossbow proof) That’s much more superior than the peasant with a 50lb bow
@dongf2618
Жыл бұрын
@@markdennis254 untrained peasant was a myth. It was told too many times online, and it just sounded like truth nowadays, but it is wrong. Throughout much of the Chinese history, armies were always trained, unless it is absolutely necessary to enlist untrained peasants because trained soldiers all died. Either way, you have train people every year for several months, or for years and then releasing them after their military service ended. If wars erupted, these people would be called to arms. Especially during the Song dynasty, the military was made entirely out of professional soldiers. So there it goes the validity of the argument that professional armies are always better than the compulsory military service, or the mix of compulsory and voluntary military service.
Bow Buddha is back, should do video with gun Jesus
@user-nb2bt2fu1e
Жыл бұрын
Best comment
@ianuser9650
Жыл бұрын
@@user-nb2bt2fu1e who’s bow Buddha who’s gun Jesus
@bugger6881
Жыл бұрын
@@ianuser9650 Ian
@skyrimJava
Жыл бұрын
@@ianuser9650 forgotten weapon youthbe channel
thank you for all your hard-work! Enjoy watching your videos.
the pistol grip and lack of stock is also a feature found on later period Chinese muskets
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Agreed
The is a really nice crossbow, especially that dark wood stock. Really big heavy crossbow cavalry is really cool. Kinda like Dragoons, they could load up with more armor, and ammo, and heavier weapons than a normal infantry
@busurbusur2381
Жыл бұрын
Shoot once and retreat to reload. Heavy infantry with no range support would get wrecked. It might take all day but these mounted artillery have all day
@legntt3488
Жыл бұрын
Counter with melee cav or horse arxhers
@busurbusur2381
Жыл бұрын
@@legntt3488 yes there are counters to mounted artillery but I’m saying now there’s finally an answer to heavy infantry meta
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@busurbusur2381 I don’t think mounted crossbow artillery is the solution to heavy infantry meta. They are good harassers but u need a huge Quantity of crossbow artillery to seriously defeat heavy infantry (because the huge quantity of melee infantry in general). Or else they are just harassers. Mounted cannons on the other hand….hmmmmm I wonder if they did that
Love this channel I learned quite a bit about bows and stuff on this channel which is quite interesting. I'm wondering is it possible one day you could do a video between different arrowheads and weights of arrows?
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
I’d love to get into arrows, it’s not my specialty but I would need to do research
Crossbow is the most effective weapon for trained peasants to contest cavalries from north.
@markdennis254
Жыл бұрын
Ming prefer archers instead
@samgyeopsal569
Жыл бұрын
@@markdennis254 Ming also used Arquebuses, very cool
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@samgyeopsal569 true
I wonder how much draw weight played a factor in the stirrup vs no stirrup issue. Heavier prods would require placing both legs on the limb for greater force and stability compared to one leg on the stirrup. Many heavy Han crossbows were also so heavy that they had to be drawn while laying on your back and placing both feet against the prod...which might not be practical if it used a stirrup.
@qr1-tg1wi
Ай бұрын
Stirrup for shorter power stroke
I hope you one day write us a book that will become a reference material for any scholar, enthusiast and replica maker. Traversing Chinese sources is such a daunting task
Early Chinese Gunpowder Weapons next?
@Intranetusa
Жыл бұрын
300-500+ lb Han Dynasty and Song Dynasty crossbows prods next. We want you to put your muscles to the test. Muscular chad crossbowmen > weak virgin gunpowdermen.
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@Intranetusa I can’t find someone to make 300lb prods with long powerstroke with m shape. Let me know if you can find
@rayray6490
Жыл бұрын
That would be nice. I’m curious if the Chinese ever developed explosive rockets or just rocket-propelled arrows
@Intranetusa
Жыл бұрын
@@HistoricalWeapons Will do. I thought you were able to find bowmen who could make 240+ lb D-shaped prods with long powerstrokes? Are those prods too big/long for testing purposes?
@Intranetusa
Жыл бұрын
@@rayray6490 Both. Song Dynasty armies had fire arrows which were both rockets strapped to arrows to propel them and bombs strapped to the tips of arrows, and likely a combination of both. The Ming Dynasty had exploding rockets in the shape of birds and dragons called Huolongjing.
I LOVE crossbows dude. So accurate and satisfying to use.
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Same!
Great content as always
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Glad you think so!
I hope you do a test on the heaviest horn prod you can get. This would be a true beast at +350lb!
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
That’s the problem lol! Can’t find
You can easily lengthen or shorten the draw by adjusting where the stock attaches to the prod. Put a small block in-between and you lengthen the draw, or saw out a bigger section for a shorter draw
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Yes for sure. Btw is the audio/video ok?
The Chinese crossbow has a deeper penetration at greater range than the Medieval crossbow. The Medieval crossbow may be powerful but it has much shorter range due to a much shorter powerful stroke. When full draw, the Medieval crossbow is barely halfway of the stock while in contrast, the Chinese crossbow is at the end of the stock. Also the Chinese may have more advanced knowledge in metallurgy science, they never consider metal prods for their crossbows. Crossbows with metal prods known as arbalest may be powerful but the draw weight is so great that it is impossible to use muscle power. A special device known as windlass pulley or cranequin is required to draw the metal prods. It is a very time-consuming process as well trained and experienced arbalesters are able to shoot 2 bolts per minute. This make the arbalests more effective in defense rather than offence.
@kevinwahyudi2839
6 ай бұрын
Because trigger bar act like lever Long trigger bar easy to draw Short trigger bar hard to draw
@dongf2618
3 ай бұрын
Tod's 1000lb draw-weight crossbow with steel prod shooting a 96g bolt only produced 110J of energy when released. Jack's 120lb draw-weight crossbow with wood-bamboo prod shooting a 57g bolt produced 113J of energy.
@dongf2618
3 ай бұрын
@@kevinwahyudi2839 The Chinese trigger is a twin-axle trigger which does not require as much force to pull the trigger as the single-axel trigger design of the European crossbows.
Excellent sources
Perhaps the cavalry operated like during the very much later age of firearms? Where they wouldn't shoot from horses but rather use them to set up obscure fires, able to reposition or run, like a mobile light artillery?
The bow is beautiful to look at. But I've heard some older Chinese crossbows even had pistol grips
Ian should do a collab with u
I have wishing a video review of reproduction for at least a decade now! Im really happy, a small dream come true!
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Haha glad you see
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Please spread the word
Wondering if you could talk about the spanning methods for crossbow used in China?
I did not know crossbows were banned in China
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Yeah
@Mass.T
6 ай бұрын
I remember crossbow and armor are forbidden to be owned by commons in Han Dynasty. Only government can own.
could you make a video please about the hungarian style griffin bow from paragon?
what i find interesting is, how early, the development in asia of composite bows and a proper trigger system, as opposed to a pusher or peg trigger. yet they didnt have a full tiller or shoulder stock. obviously more stable and accurate than a pisto design.
@qr1-tg1wi
Ай бұрын
Peg triggers / flick/push it up triggers are common in se Asia like Vietnam Miao Hmong etc
Very interesting 🤔
Would you be able to go into technical details on the repro? Or is it as easy as it seems, just a piece of stock holding a bow with a trigger system similar to Han crossbows? As a Chinese owning one of those would be a dream
300 yards=290m
Hi are you considering to talk about artillery bow system like 三弓床子驽 sangongchuangzinu? I saw Steven Gardner in KZread made one, since China banned heavy pound crossbow I found very little info about this.
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Id love to but i dont have space for artillery
I'm really interested in if this shorter song era crossbow could be reloaded from horseback. Can you span one of these with the stock braced against your torso, pulling the string back with both hands? and from a seated position?
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
I assume it’s a portable artillery device used like dragoons. Devastating one shot against shielded infantry but slow reload dismounted on foot
Hi. Great stuff. I would like to know where I can get resorces for Chinese related period clothing,armor,weapons. For SCA and authentic stuff
@HistoricalWeapons
11 ай бұрын
I recommend starting with Lk Chen
@johnhayes6414
11 ай бұрын
what about clothing and armor mostly interested in
@HistoricalWeapons
11 ай бұрын
@@johnhayes6414 I recommend the Chinese armor Facebook group to start
@dongf2618
10 ай бұрын
@@johnhayes6414 I would suggest the youtube channel "King of Wuzhen - Jie Ge." He does many armored re-enactments in historical clothing, ranging from the Shang dynasty 13th Century BC to pre-modern China.
Thanks for the vid
I don't think the guy who invented the crossbow was as enthusiastic about them as Jack.
🙂
Thanks for this well researched work! - I wonder on the warfare context-sounds like song dynasty where loosing against mongols? Any text left from mongols why this heavy weapon did not impress them? -would ve interesting to see the penetration power of this on lets say a 100yards. -interesting how long the limbs are-I always wondered why crossbows evoluted towards shorter limbs&powerstroke in Europe.. -this video is a carefull contribution but it would be essential to understand who this weapons where used-obviously few texts around, so a lot if guess work-my 5cents: why using a weapon good against heavy armoured slow targets (a.e european knights) while fighting against fast light armoured targets (mongols)-could this explain the deafeat of the songs?
@qr1-tg1wi
Ай бұрын
Weapon is just one aspect. By the time the mongols attack song they already conquered jin and tunguts which is a mix of northern Chinese and nomads and tibetans , so they had access to crossbows, explosives and early guns already, along with superior cavalry and archers
@qr1-tg1wi
Ай бұрын
Europeans had longer powerstroke crossbows before mainstream medieval ones
@recursr1892
Ай бұрын
@@qr1-tg1wi thanks for that info..hmm..sounds like warfare was more complex than a single type of weapon vs a single type of armour, already by then.
what is the drawweight of the crossbow?
I always wondered why Europeans never used this longer draw length variant of crossbow instead of the short ones, this is just far more efficient (assuming you got space to shoot it I guess). BTW are you gonna do some tests with chrono?
@skyrimJava
Жыл бұрын
They did
@philozoraptor6808
Жыл бұрын
@@skyrimJava Could you link some sources please. I am genuinely interested. The longest European xbow "reference" I found is this picture, I estimated those numbers there: staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3174/images/791/791-1639313917-2071535690.png
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
@@philozoraptor6808 I’ve seen artillery versions longer
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
The trigger design limits portable crossbow length
@philozoraptor6808
Жыл бұрын
@@HistoricalWeapons Interesting, did not know that. So chinese crossbow can get longer due to different trigger? What about middle-eastern crossbows? I heard (maybe one of your videos) that they were more like Chinese crossbows, just a regular bow attached to rest of the "body" with relatively long draw?
Hey my friend I don't know your channel but the name caught my eye. Maybe you can help a friend of mine. His channel is called, "Faces in the Stone ". He just posted a video of a bow and some points, tools etc. he found in a clay bank washed out somewhere in the eastern part of the US. The bow appears to be a several hundred year old sapling laminate, 2 saplings graphed together COMPOUND bow. It is amazing. Check it out he wants to know who would preserve it, carbon date it and display it for all to see.this bow was manipulated during growth and is a masterpiece in technology.
Yea
Yes
Can the crossbow pierce heavy armor or breastplate?
@qr1-tg1wi
Ай бұрын
Depends on material
The Chinese already used wood laminate bows?
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
we have proof in warring states already
Beast
@skyrimJava
Жыл бұрын
Why
🎉🎉🎉
"300 yards" Me: Damn that's far🤯 Also me realizing I don't know yards because I'm metric: Wait a second🤔 😹😹😹 Beautiful crossbow🥰
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Haha yeah
So even the stirrup crossbow is a Chinese invention that spread west later lol
@vintagebowyer1692
Жыл бұрын
Rope stirrup probably stone age invention
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Woooooow
the stirrup was likely to be introduced from Europe or Central Asia
@MarkMiller304
Жыл бұрын
China had stirrups for quite a while before Europe. It most like went from east to west.
@thfkmnIII
Жыл бұрын
E Asia was using stirrups before europe proper
U in Quebec
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
No Alberta
Wow
Tes😊
thumbs up
Podo Barat malah gede
I have arrows but I don't have money i didn't get bow can you please gift me this bow sir 🏹 please
Lha koe tau ajah Barat pora
You can't own a cross bow in China wow that's actually extremely sad... IG there is no such thing as off grid living in China
That’s illegal in Canada because pistol grip
@legntt3488
Жыл бұрын
One handed and under 500mm are illegal. Pistol grip is a feature of one hand but this toooo heavy one hand
@dingdong4156
Жыл бұрын
ask any judge to try to hold it one handed with the pistol grip. Good luck
@dingdong4156
Жыл бұрын
Modern commercial crossbows have pistol grip too
@themodernarmbruster
Жыл бұрын
Haha no way. It’s over 500mm and designed for use with two hands. Even if you wanted to, there is no way you could effectively use this crossbow stock with one hand; it’s just too front-heavy, even with out the prod. I know, because I built it :)
@marcellusbrutus3346
Жыл бұрын
Its legal
First
Come on, pounds and feet. I know were talking about historical weapons but just use normal measurements.
nice
Haha dude it's a crossbow, no one forgot crossbows.
@HistoricalWeapons
Жыл бұрын
Thats like says dude its a sword. No one forget sword.
@mintiemoments
Жыл бұрын
Well that'd be true too, no one forgot about the sword either.
不伦不类
@caturion5453
Жыл бұрын
为什么这么说?
Yes