Listening from Malaysia as someone who came from Pentecostalism as well!

How did Christians manage to mess up 2000 years of solid Christianity basically in the last 120 years? I’ve lived half a lifetime knowing none of this - it was only this year I even heard of the term ‘cessationism’. It was such a relief - makes sense, explains everything.

@edarcy412

Жыл бұрын

Christians are humans and don't understand everything. Now that the Lord helped you see the truth, attitude should be gratitude and not condemnation towards those who do not understand yet.

@brandanrummage8590

Жыл бұрын

Most of these novelties can be traced back as a consequence of the 2nd Great Awakening.

@bereshit12

9 ай бұрын

Solid Christianity?

Cessationism talk begins @ 12:00 👍

@tonimontgomery4048

4 жыл бұрын

I don’t agree with this thought of Cessationism. I KNOW that the gifts really are active today.

@josesevinelevin9262

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, I was about to click off the video and start searching for another one before I saw your comment

@Mario_1611

4 жыл бұрын

@@josesevinelevin9262 Patience is a virtue of the Spirit, Bro. 😂

@Alfredsparks

4 жыл бұрын

NOT ALL HEROES WEAR CAPES

@Marco-yb1gh

4 ай бұрын

Haha they always make endless small-talk before the podcast beings

Listening from Colombia! Thank You Brothers. As an ex-charismatic I really appreciate this.

Camden, the sound is actually great, we didn't hear any echo . Thanks for keeping up the good work . God bless

God bless the audio backup.

Listening from Canada

He's from Oklahoma! One of my people! Amen!

Listening from Colombia. We are still waiting the conference about Roman Catholicism ;).

Did you say Grayslake, IL? I've been there a few times, for the old Cornerstone fest before it moved to the farm!

Listening from Taiwan :)

What about 'situational revelation', ie. a 'word' for a particular set of circumstances as part of a wider process of discernment about a course of action?

I really loved this video. Would appreciate if there's more scripture references to support the cessasionalist view. God bless.

@holmes2294

2 жыл бұрын

Sadly there isn't one

I listened to this for about 15 minutes and did not get to the meat of the discussion. Please reply back with the time stamp where it begins.

@ 32:36 the reference is 2 Peter 1

This is the best explanation of cessationism I have ever heard, and I have heard many. Thanks!

Link of the picture for the thumbnail

Once and for all event

23:33 definition of cessationism

Weren't the Scriptures considered to be sufficient even when it was incomplete? Paul's reference to the scriptures in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 must have an incomplete cannon in mind which precludes the idea that a complete cannon is the foundation for the doctrine of sufficiency. Therefore how can the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture have any bearing upon the requirement that revelatory gifts must cease once the cannon is complete? Genuinely interested to hear peoples ideas on this. Thanks.

@RTreturns

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly for what did Timothy understand when the apostle Paul wrote to him. As you read through verse 16 the apostle Paul defines what the scriptures are sufficient for. Notice doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. However the apostle Paul does not say that the scriptures are all sufficient in everything for that would be impossible. The apostle Paul said ye are complete in him. Only God himself is to be our all sufficiency. I will address the 7 point of Calvenism done by Pastor Tom Pennington in great detail and Lord willing in 20202 do a video on each point. BTW as far as the foundation role there is something that they have missed. When the apostle Paul wrote concerning the foundation of the apostles and prophets, at the time of that writting the foundation was already done for no one builds on an uncomplete foundation. Thus it was about AD 61 that the foundation was already complete which is a number of years before the apostle age ended. God bless.

@richardnoble3180

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly, well said. To my mind the sufficiency of Scripture and the continuation of the gifts are far from being necessarily related.

@steveareeno65

3 жыл бұрын

It has a bearing because Paul was an apostle. The canon of the New Testament was considered closed not because the Bible says that specifically anywhere but because the church considered it closed by limiting it to only those who had direct communication with Christ. That is why we don’t consider Anslem, Augustine, Calvin, and Luther’s writings scripture, as great as they are. Also, scripture was always sufficient because it is the word of God, even when it is progressively revealed like it was from the old testament to the New Testament. Prior to the New Testament, scripture (the Old Testament) was sufficient for its time and its purpose. The main point is that special revelation ended with Christ and with those who were witnesses of him during his life and ministry.

@davidsmeaton2977

3 жыл бұрын

@@steveareeno65 Sorry, I'm not following your point here, could you perhaps elaborate on what Paul being an Apostle has to do with what I said above. I agree with you that the scriptures are a closed canon. But, as I said above, I don't see any logical reason why the revelatory gifts ought to cease once the canon is closed.

@Zilam

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidsmeaton2977 What is/was the purpose of the revelatory gifts?

The Church authenticates some private revelations but no private revelation is necessary to believe for salvation, on the other hand a private revelation which is a reiteration of Scripture is by that placed upon Christian o bligation.

This is great guys!

Surely, the 'Gifts' are not 'about us' as much as they are empowerment for mission?

Ive passed this along to several continuationiats. Thank you!!

Question: When missionaries are in the jungle and pray over broken bones that get mended,...a gift ? a miracle because of the missionary preaching? The Bible discusses annointing people with oil when sick? (im asking this as a rebuttle from my dad , we gre up in a cma churcc and in the army i was exsposed to a LOT of different churches...lol. )

@Dagfari

6 ай бұрын

We still do Unction (the sacrament of healing via anointing with holy oil) and it is not uncommon for people to be healed.

Listening from Guatemala

Amen, the signed gifts have ended after the church was established among the gentiles, the canon is closed. I always wondered about the sudden languages started at babbal, to divide (cause they were doing wrong). then the sudden known tongues started at pentecost to unite by the Gospel.

Listening from Finland

Do you have any recommendations for books on Cessationism or the history of Cessationism?

@kylesalmon31

2 жыл бұрын

John MacArthur “strange fire”

@brandanrummage8590

Жыл бұрын

BB Warfield, “Perspectives on Pentecost” or O Palmer Robertson, “The Final Word”

@St._Jaden_P

Жыл бұрын

The history of cessationism itself, has no biblical basis. The main purpose of cessationism was to refute the fake miracles of the Catholic church. The Reformers saw the fake miracles and came up with the doctrine of cessationism as a means to be as anti-catholic as possible. It quite literally had nothing to do with scripture. St. Augustine was considered "the first cessationist" because at one point in time he believed that miracles ceased with the apostles. But once they started recording miracles at that time, after seeing 70 miracles in just 2 years, he repented of his belief that miracles ceased. He wrote that the same God who "wrought miracles" in the scriptures, were still performing them by "whom He will and as He will." Showing that God was still doing spontaneous miracles, but also were using other ppl to perform those miracles. You can read about it in his writings 'The City of God', book 22. It was only after the reformation that many teacher and preachers have come up with misinterpretation after misinterpretation of scripture, in order to fit their theological standpoint. Even in some cases having to shove cessationism into the bible where it doesn't belong, as well as coming up with logical fallacies to "prove their view". I can give a few examples of this if you would like. That's all i can give in regards to the History of cessationism or how many use the bible to show Cessationism (even though the bible doesn't, just saying.)

Listening from Kenya

I’m curious did he talk about his personal “tongue speaking “ and if so what he attributed it to?

@jgeph2.4

5 жыл бұрын

Sorry I just heard him mention it at 58:36

@ninjacell2999

5 жыл бұрын

He just says it came from his own mind

Where is the Scriptural support for cessationism?

@croppedndocked146

2 жыл бұрын

Where is there real world proof or support for real tongues, languages, being used, or any examples of someone being raised from the dead, or any of the miraculous things Jesus and his disciples were doing? You think modern day gibberish "tongues", the healing of headaches, and a 25% accurate prophecy record is the equivalent to what Jesus and his disciples did!? Get real.

One-time event?? Acts 4:31

I am perplexed though. Why would u not speak often on the Holy Spirit when He is the one currently with us?

the Holy Spirit never stopped, nor did the gifts ever went away. God does talk to all brothers and sisters, as our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher, guiding us to do the Father's will, convicting us when we do wrong, comforting us in hard times, helping understand Scripture. The Holy Spirit is God.... so why teach that He stopped? He never stops working.... He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

@truth409

Жыл бұрын

Angry bunch arent they?

@JesusProtects

Жыл бұрын

You misunderstood the whole video. Did you watch it?

@JesusProtects

Жыл бұрын

​​@@truth409 hum, no? They are not. Why do you say this?

@jermoosekek1101

3 ай бұрын

@@truth409why do you think we are angry? If you misunderstand the scriptures we want you to understand them.

I am sorry but what do you believe. I am not understanding

Part 3 *Now dealing with the misuse of 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8-10* Refuting the position that the perfect is the New Testament, in context it could only be Christ as we read the rest of the verses in 1 corinthians 13:8-13 which most of all proponents for the perfect being the N.T. stop at verse 10. Keep reading. Those who manipulate or twist scriptures to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16, the text in 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Now as you read in context, Paul did not stop where you stop but continued on. The perfect is come is continued in verse 12. In verse 11, when we were a child referring to these gifts God has given us but when we are full grown we put away childish things in reference to verse 10 the part being DONE AWAY. Now verse 12, put up the analogy and says FOR which is explain verses 10 and 11, FOR NOW at our time before Christ who is the perfect come, we SEE thru a glass darkly, things are hard to put the puzzle together, but THEN WHEN CHRIST DOES COME, face to face. if you do a study on face to face always means a person is there. To be clear, all the THEN references mean the future when the perfect comes who is Christ implicitly only reasonable explanation given verse 12, instead, people stop short at verse 10 of 1 corinthians. The Now references are not just Paul's time frame but from that time to the end will christ returns, look at 1 corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ For example, in genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob actually seen the men face to face. Exodus 33:11 andNumbers 12:8 I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?” Here is an N.T. example in 1 John 1:12 I have many things to write to you, but I would prefer not to do so with paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come and speak with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. To continue in 1 corinthians 13:12, as the texts says NOW I know in PART, Paul just connected verse 10 the knowledge, prophecies and tongues which are PARTS, but THEN WHEN CHRIST DOES COME, face to face. if you do a study on face to face always means a person is there. To be clear, all the THEN references mean the future when the perfect comes who is Christ implicitly only reasonable explanation given verse 12, instead, people stop short at verse 10 of 1 corinthians. The Now references are not just Paul's time frame but from that time to the end will christ returns, look at 1 corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ For example, in genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Jacob actually seen the men face to face. Exodus 33:11 andNumbers 12:8 I speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you unafraid to speak against My servant Moses?” Here is an N.T. example in 1 John 1:12 I have many things to write to you, but I would prefer not to do so with paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come and speak with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete. To continue in 1 corinthians 13:12, as the texts says NOW I know in PART, Paul just connected verse 10 the knowledge, prophecies and tongues which are PARTS, but THEN shall I know even as also I AM KNOWN. The word I am known in the greek lexicon 1921 epiginṓskō (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" which intensifies 1097 /ginṓskō, "know through personal relationship") - properly, apt, experiential knowing, through direct relationship. This knowing builds on (epi, "upon") the verbal idea and hence is defined by the individual context. which. So the text says shall I know we know someone even as also I AM KNOWN which is a DIRECT PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with another person, like being in FACE TO FACE with him. This is the scriptures in context, exegetically. Paul by the Spirit of God is saying once the perfect is come, we will see him FACE TO FACE then know him as we are fully known, being in a DIRECT RELATIONSHIP. You cannot be in face to face in the CONTEXT of what face to face means BIBLICALLY in the Bible; further, to know as I am known, the Bible is NOT PERSONAL we read the Bible and Christ thru his Spirit gives us the meaning. Christ and his Spirit personal with us, however, the holy bible can not be personal with us. We are known of God but never does the Bible say the words on the page know us, rather, the Holy inspired words, the Spirit of Christ makes known to us, thats personal or face to face and being known. Known of God: 1 Corinthians 8:3, Galatians 4:9, 2 Timothy 2:19 and 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

@Jeremyb2023

3 жыл бұрын

Here are a couple of reasons why I do not believe the "perfect" refers to either Jesus Christ or Heaven. If this text is intended to mean that we will see Christ face to face, then why would it be necessary for faith to remain? Faith is belief in the absence of sight. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. If this text is intended to speak about the perfection of the heavenly state and fulfillment of prophecies, then why would it be necessary for hope to remain? If these things are fulfilled and seen, then it certainly would not be called hope. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NOT HOPE: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. It should be abundantly clear that when "that which is perfect shall come" faith and hope will not be done away... They will remain! They will still be looking FORWARD to the fulfillment of these things. For this reason, it makes no sense to say that this refers to either Jesus or the heavenly state. Furthermore, the immediate context says nothing about either Jesus or heaven. Let's look at the verse again: 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect (COMPLETE) is come, then that which is in part (PARTIAL) shall be done away. What we see here is at the time of Paul's writing, there was something that was in part. However, there was something perfect/complete that was coming. It seems obvious that these two things are of the same nature. You're not replacing a part of one thing with a complete version of another. So what are the things which are in part? 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be PROPHECIES, they shall fail; whether there be TONGUES, they shall cease; whether there be KNOWLEDGE, it shall vanish away. 1Co 13:9 For we KNOW IN PART, and we PROPHESY IN PART. Most clearly, it is speaking about knowledge in verses 8-9, prophesying in verses 8-9, and most likely also including tongues (v. 8). These revelatory gifts were "in part" and would be replaced by "that which is perfect." This is not to say that all forms of knowledge will suddenly disappear, all forms of language, and all prophecies... but rather these specific gifts of the Spirit which were in part. And when they disappear, it is not because all will be experienced and seen fulfilled... for faith and hope will still remain... meaning we will still be looking forward to the fulfillment of these things which we have received in the perfect/complete form. So partial prophecy and partial knowledge will be done away as complete prophecy and knowledge arrives. But faith and hope will still be needed until the fulfillment of these things. I hope you will consider these things. God bless!

Helpful. Would have been better if they delt with the stronger arguments from continuationists. Didn't really engage with any of the biblical ones from their perspective.

It should be the goal and desire of everyone that believes that Jesus was sent by His Father to desire everything that He wants them to have. In John 14:16 Jesus promised that he would send another paraclete. He was the first paraclete and desired all those that believed to have the paraclete he would send.

The stuff on two levels of Christianity is great, my other big problem with Continuationism is that most other churches now and throughout history haven't been given these gifts, so either God has chosen to not give them for some reason (basically cessationism) or you end back up with having to earn the gifts.

@PepeLeFunk

5 жыл бұрын

NinjaCell books.google.cl/books/about/The_suppressed_evidence.html?id=JkopAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y

@ninjacell2999

5 жыл бұрын

@@PepeLeFunk The argument of that book is not the same thing we are discussing, it is arguing against the idea that no miracles can now happen, which is not the contention of cessationism. Pointing out the occasional miracle is irrelevant, we are talking about spiritual gifts, on top of that you need to argue that the gifts have always been active, if you argue that they sometimes were and sometimes were not you need an explanation. Now, looking over the section on the reformers, it does not make a case for the miraculous gifts in all churches. Because they have not existed in all churches. So again we come to the problem of explaining that. And this section only proves my point. The author claims that the reason the reformers spoke against miracles was because of a misinterpretation of the great commission, and therefore because they had no mission they had no miracles. Putting aside the anachronistic idea of "missions" in a 16th century context, the reformers clearly taught the gospel and indeed Calvin set up a school to train ministers to preach in France (most of whom died from persecution). Either way it is explaining the lack of miracles by putting it the blame on the people, again creating two classes of Christianity. Furthermore his exegesis of the Great Commission is incorrect, but that's beside the point. I believe the Holy Spirit is God, and can give the whatever gifts to whomever He chooses. It is not up to us to "earn" them from Him.

@PepeLeFunk

5 жыл бұрын

NinjaCell that is only one of many examples of how miracles (including as expressions of gifts) have happened throughout history. Just one example: John Knox’s son in law has several stories of healing and prophecy/ word of knowledge connected to his ministry, several of which were not recorded but acknowledged by people who knew him. Similar things can be said of other Covenanters, reformers and other figures throughout history. Augustine began his ministry as a type of cessationist (though perhaps it’s an anachronism to use the term) and changed over the years as he saw many miracles happening through the Christian community he served in.

@ninjacell2999

5 жыл бұрын

@@PepeLeFunk The question remains, why some churches and not others?

@PepeLeFunk

5 жыл бұрын

NinjaCell There are many ways to answer these sorts of questions (including the fact that there Scriptures do teach we can quench the Spirit, interestingly enough, precisely in the context of the prophetic gift!). Again, I would take time to explore Sam Storms’ website, and read the two “Surprised by” books by Deere (they really do need to be read together. Some of the best stuff is at the end of the second book). I will finally say that (for example) I received tongues when I DID NOT want to or expect to, so it isn’t about merit, and this sort of experience has happened to many I know of (who out of embarrassment in a functionally cessationist context, have kept it secret). Read some of the above mentioned authors. Read Mark Ruthven’s critique of Warfield. Bring it before the Lord. And then come to a final conclusion. I tried cessationism. I really did. God had other plans.

As someone who is moving in practically the opposite direction (re: Continuiationist, still Reformed in most of not all other areas), I don’t know what to do with this story. I didn’t really believe in tongues, until someone spoke in tongues (against my wishes, I was very upset when this happened), it was interpreted for me in a word of knowledge that was powerfully accurate. On another occasion I began to speak in tongues, even though I had no plan to. I’ve heard of other such stories. Are we supposed to ignore this, or simply attribute this to Satan?

@ninjacell2999

5 жыл бұрын

The claim of Continuationalism is much greater than one or two strange things happening. It is that the gifts are normal in the church. The problem with that is that most churches have not and do not find anything like what you describe. I am also curious in what ways you are Reformed

@PepeLeFunk

5 жыл бұрын

NinjaCell A long story. But my experience is not as rare as you think. In many ways it has similarities to what Jack Deere and Sam Storms have gone through. Would especially recommend “Convergence” by Sam Storms.

@ninjacell2999

5 жыл бұрын

@@PepeLeFunk Ah yeah one of my good friends is Charismatic and he highly recommends Sam Storms. Thanks for the recommendation, if I find any books you might find useful I'll let you know.

@croppedndocked146

2 жыл бұрын

There is no way to know if a so-called interpretation is accurate.

Many people who reject continuation after believing it before, come from very legalistic, old school, Pentecostal traditions, such as holiness churches. They are more extreme than most and I would dislike it, too. Reformed theology is much more grace based and attractive. There is such a broad spectrum of people who believe in continuation. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Where does it say Pentecost is unrepeatable? You made that up.

Brothers, I have to disagree with the Cessationists view. It doesn't hold up biblically or historically. The gifts most certainly continued after the Apostles. The Early Church Fathers spoke of the Gifts of the Spirit in their day. For example, Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) wrote "The prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you should understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.240." A DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS: A REFERENCE GUIDE TO MORE THAN 700 TOPICS DISCUSSED BY THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, s.v. “Gifts of the Spirit.”

part 4 Contextually, the texts CLEALY teaches in CONTEXT that the GIFT OF TONGUES AN PROPHETS FUNCTIONS: the Church as to have order: this is the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. Church setting: 1 corinthians 14:4, 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. The whole context bears witness to the FACT that the gifts are a role or function inside the Churches. Starting from verse 27-33, gives the saints those who use tongues or prophesy CERTAIN GUIDELINES. The tongues speakers are to SPEAK TO THEMSELVES AND TO GOD, that is, if there are no interpreter present. Prophets may all prophesy must NOT all at once but letting the other speak then once he's done, allow the other to prophesy. Notice, repeatedly, when we "gather together" or "in the Church." Verse 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14: 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. These are COMMANDMENTS DID NOT STOP after the Apostles died, but continues. This commandment NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURES is cancelled out. 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come BEHIND IN NO GIFT; WAITING for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 Who shall ALSO, CONFIRM YOU UNTO THE END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Part 1 A continuationist here: i believe Scriptures teach and instruct us that the gifts of the Spirit are normative. Providing textual support for this position, I will also, answer if it was SOLEY for the Apostles's disciples and none else or for other saints after the Apostles died. Examining Christ's teaching, Apostles, and the work and gifts of the Spirit in believers. Jesus taught: Mark 16:17-20 However, most scholars don't accept the Mark text since it was not in the Old manuscripts but i think the text is there. However, the teaching of the gifts are taught without Mark 16:17, 18, in other passages which the Apostles AGREE by the Spirit. #1 Christ teaching of the gifts mentioned in Mark 16:17-20 using other texts agree; casting out demons BY FAITH: Matthew 10:8, Mark 3:15 and noticeably Matthew 17:14-19: verses 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not drive it out?” 20 And He *said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith [i]the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. The lesson to learn was to HAVE FAITH. Also, in the context Matthew 17:14-19, casting out DEMONS which Jesus used as a metaphor: the mountain was the demoniac or demons which we were to CAST OUT or to REMOVE that mountain viz the apostles, disciples after them even today, were to cast out demons by FAITH. #2Lay hands on the sick taught by Christ: Mark 3: 15 And to have power to heal sicknesses..Luke 9: 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Matthew 10:1 Jesus called the twelve and gave them power and authority over...to cure all diseases." *(Absolutely not true: I do NOT believe the Holy Scriptures teach a person has to speak in tongues to be SAVED, that's heretical. 1 Corinthians **12:29**,30: all speak in tongues, no!)* #3 New tongues outside of Mark 16 are not taught in scriptures, however, the teachings of the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, being out poured with the evidence of speaking in tongues in several texts gives weight to Mark 16:17. Acts 2:3,4 were given to the apostles; to the jews; to the Gentiles: Acts 10:44-46 and Acts 19:4,5 Did others besides the Apostles cast out demons? Yes. Acts 6:3-6 the Apostles's disciples: Acts 8: 7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice.. Here, Philip and Stephen by the Spirit imparts healing and the miraculous gifts. Stephen: Acts 6: 8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and [h]signs among the people. Philip: Acts 8:6-8, verse 7 "..and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed." The Apostles laying on of hands in that era: imparting the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:2 #4 laying on of hands The impartation of the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on the Apostles hands. Acts 19:6, Acts 8:15,16.(was done by apostles Acts 13:3; Acts 8:16; Acts 19:6; James 5:14; 2 Tim 1:6). Hebrews 2:1-4 the cessationist use SELECTIVE TEXTS for proof the gifts were only to the apostles. However, the Spirit gives gifts of healing or miraculous and of faith to others besides the Apostles of Christ. The Holy Spirit gives the gifts to Christ's body REFUTES the cessationist spurious doctrine The Spirit's work to impart GIFTS after the Apostles's death to Christ's body: Hebrews 6:2 This is now done by the Holy Spirit anointing us with a variation of gifts 1 corinthians 12:7-11; Romans 12:4-8 Galatians 3:2,5. It was the Spirit of God who gave the gift of tongues and power in general for the work of the ministry so once the apostles died, it will be the Same Holy Spirit that imparts US today gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:4, 7-11 NO WHERE does it imply or say these gifts are only for the Apostles and that generation of the apostles's disciples but in GENERAL. It is the Spirit work or function to impart the Gifts according to 1 Corinthians 12: 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. Corinthians. Consider this metaphor of Christ's body to suffice and REFUTES any other doctrine outside of continuation: 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 it is by the Spirit NOT THE APOSTLES were are baptized or immersed by the Holy Ghost into Christ's body as individual members. The different members of the body 1 Corinthians 12:14-21, 27-30..eye cant see the hand I have no need of you..18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [s]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? God place the MEMBERS in Christ's body: 1-8: apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, gifts of healing, helps administrations, kinds of tongues. The cessationist unlearned or unstable wrest-twist violating- scriptures( 2 Peter 3:16) by ACCEPTING 3: teachers are present in the church today but 4 miracles or 5th gift of healings are NOT PRESENT in the church today. It is like a person tells you to count to 8 but decide to gloss over or don't count numbers 4,5, and 7; Arithmetically, that person will have violated the laws of arithmetics and mathematics in process; similarly, cessations twist or wrest the plain context and Scriptures: taking out or removing any gifts of the Spirit which God by his Spirit revealed to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:28-30. Given the context of the members of Christ's body which God the Father put together, the members were just apostles, prophets or the power of healing, miraculous, speaking of tongues, helps, and administrations were GIVEN FOR ALL SAINTS even after the apostolic age? Notice, that the hand could be a help for SERVICE in the church as Deacons 1 Timothy 3:8:13, Philippians 1:1; the head of Christ's body could be the Bishops or Elders who rule over the sheep Acts 20:28, Hebrews 13:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:12 etc; the hearing could be the prophets Acts 13:1 and Revelation 10:6,7; Revelation 11:3,4, 10 two prophets. Therefore, as the texts CLEARLY SUPPORT that the hearing could prophesy or are prophets. Apostles and prophets are no longer with the church is ERRONEOUS; the order that the Spirit of God gave to Paul is different: thirdly, teachers are here which cessationist affirm, however, then miracles or gifts of healings. They are PICKING AND CHOOSING what STAYS IN THE CHURCH AND WHAT GOES: COMMANDMENTS AND TRADITIONS OF MEN. The cessationist say that the helps an administration, of course, are in the Church; however, various tongues and interpretation of tongues are mentioned: LAST OF ALL. Paul gives further proof that the Spirit gifts are within the Body function in Romans 12:3-8: members with not the same office: GIFTS DIFFERING. Romans 12:3,4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 1 Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

@truth409

Жыл бұрын

Good.......

holy blue hue batman! haha.

Bable

Sign & Gifts have and always will be from The Holy Spirit. No "isms" have anything to do Gifts & Signs but is from Sovereign Most High. Why do "men" think they have the foreknowledge of Gods Sovereignty over the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? It's not over after the Apostolic Giftings nor is it an automatic concurrently. Its when God decides, when Hes good and ready, for His Glory, to Magnify Himself. Allot of theological gymnastics in this discussion. Where's the Scriptures to backup your opinions and thoughts?

The Biblical authors say nothing about an "Apostolic age" after which the "charismatic" gifts would cease (because of the closing of the canon of scripture). This is adding to the text. Certainly, the so-called "Church Fathers" the leaders, teachers, theologians, and apologists that came after the Apostles for some 300 years said nothing about such teaching. In fact, for centuries the occurrence of miraculous gifts continued to wax and wane. Augustine may have been the first Cessationist. In his book "Of True Religion" he wrote: “These miracles were not permitted to last till our times, lest the soul should always seek visible things, and the human race should grow cold by becoming accustomed to things which stirred it when they were novel.” That is true. When hands are laid on in Baptism people do not receive the Holy Spirit in such a way that they speak with the tongues of all the nations. Nor are the sick now healed by the shadow of Christ’s preachers as they pass by. Clearly, such things which happened then have later CEASED. (chap. xxv) However, much later he changed his mind and in his book "Retractions" he wrote: "...But I should not be understood to mean that to-day no miracles are to be believed to happen in the name of Christ. For when I wrote that book I myself had just heard that a blind man in Milan had received his sight beside the bodies of the Milanese martyrs, Protasius and Gervasius. And many others happen even in these times so that it is impossible to know them all or to enumerate those we do know.* (1,13) To teach as doctrine something not stated in scripture sets up experience and tradition as the source of doctrine and is thus a violation of Sola Scriptura. Some theologians have been honest enough to admit that Cessationism in it is pure form is not scriptural. "There is nothing in the New Testament INCONSISTENT with the occurrence of miracles in the post-apostolic age of the Church. The Apostles were indeed chosen to be the witnesses of Christ, to bear testimony to the facts of his history and to the doctrines which He taught. And among the signs of an Apostle or necessary credentials of his commission, was the power to work miracles. (Rom. 15:18-19; II Cor. 12: 12) When the Apostles had finished their work, the necessity of miracles, so far as the GREAT end they were intended to accomplish was concerned, ceased. This, however, does not preclude the POSSIBILITY of their occurrence, on suitable occasions, in after ages. It is a mere question of fact to be decided on historical evidence. In some few cases the nature of the event, its consequences, and the testimony in its support, have constrained many Protestants to admit the probability, if not the certainty of these miraculous interventions." Who said this? Was it a rabid Pentecostal or Charismatic? To the contrary, I found this statement in Charles Hodge’s Systematic Theology (1872-1873)

Cessationism is no different than a Deism.

@PurePuritan

Жыл бұрын

Ok weeb

One of you guys need to use the gift of healing on the guy coughing in the background... very distracting! Or maybe it's a demon of coughing... the gift of discernment and exorcism comes in handy in that case.

First and foremost, the so-called closed canon is not the end of the word of God. Jesus is the Word. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news concerning Jesus Christ. The canon is a collection of the Hebrew books of the old testament, the life of Jesus as depicted by four writers, and letters from the apostles and others to various early churches. The canon was collected and put together by men with available writings of the time years later. There were writings that were never found that were inspired by the Spirit. I said that to say this - the scripture that we have in the Bible is not the end of the word or the closure of the word, but it is the beginning of the word presented to us. The word goes forth from the scripture and is the living Spirit of Jesus Christ. Now, Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever. His Spirit is the same from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus ascended on high and gave gifts to men. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Christ gave us these spiritual gifts for the edification of the body of Christ. Religious leaders from self-named evangelicals, charismatic, pentecostal, dispensationalists, and other man-made "religious" organizations have corrupted the true word of God which went forth and continues to go forth in truth to those who are in tune with the Spirit of God. Some say the gifts ended with the canon as the speaker above. This is a subversion of the truth. Others use several of the gifts (which are actually counterfeit) to promote their own fleshly agenda. Despite denials and quenching of the gifts and perversion of the gifts, the true gifts are available to the true church. When the son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?

Pro cessasionists are angry n bitter on utube.......

You think modern day gibberish "tongues", the healing of headaches, and a 25% accurate prophecy record is the equivalent to what Jesus and his disciples did!? Get real.

Part 2 Furthermore, on the gifts of prophecy, the TWO PROPHETS of the book of Revelation 11:10 DEBUNKS the cessationist FALSE TEACHING. First of all, the book of Revelation were written for three periods: revelation 1: 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. First, which thou hast seen period were the glorification of Christ in Revelation 1:13-17. Second, the things which are: to the seven Churches of Asia in Revelation 1:11 chapter 2, and 3. Third, which shall be hereafter, that is to say, after the churches of Asia, the future. Touching on the third period which is the era, the two prophets are in this time dispensation: The time of John the apostle to prophesy then in a distant future the two prophets, the sealing of knowledge or information from the Bible, the time timelines of Israel, two prophets, the Beast, and the COMING OF CHRIST, THE LORD. #1 this Apostle John, given a book, and was to prophesy: Revelation chapter 10:11 has no connection to the two prophets but in CONTEXT to John the Apostle, will prophesy to nations, people and kings AGAIN. I will explain below why I did not include verse 3-7 for they are referring to a future period of the two witnesses in chapter 11 of Revelation, and it’s not dealing with the time period of John who is the Apostle who wrote this (Revelation 1:1, & 9). Revelation 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. According to the context above, it was told to John, in verse 8, to take the little book. Then verse 9 to eat it. Subsequently, John was commanded to prophecy in verse 11. The meaning behind eating the books or scrolls meant the words contained in the book was for you to prophecy and preach to others. For example, Ezekiel like John was commanded to eat a scroll or book then to prophecy. In Ezekiel chapter 2:7-10. Verse 10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. So Ezekiel’s book, which is God’s who inspired it, has lamentations, and morning, and woes. Now the Book of Revelation, John’s book, does say it specifically, it too has those things written therein. Then in Ezekiel chapter 3 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them. Secondly, the time was different from John's prophesy FOR there was knowledge or information WITHHELD: NOT TO WRITE BUT TO SEAL THOSE WORDS!! #2 Here’s my explanation for verse 3-4 of Revelation chapter 10 and why it’s the Two prophets time period. First of all, the book in Revelation 10:2,8-10 is OPENED. However, in Revelation 5:1 the book is SEALED. Now, here is the connection between Rev ch. 6 and 10 are the THE SEVEN THUNDERED UTTERED THEIR VOICES ( Revelation 10:3-4) AND JOHN WAS ABOUT TO WRITE BUT IT WAS TOLD HIM TO***SEAL UP THE WORDS***WHICH MEANS ITS NOT FOR HIS PERIOD BUT FOR THE TWO PROPHETS WHO PROPHESIES. Therefore, there were prophesies and information given that was not given for John to write nor revaled for us to see. See in Revelation chapter 1:19 it was told to John by Christ Jesus our risen Savior, to WRITE DOWN THE THINGS. Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. Three things: the thing that John has seen in chapter 1 verse 13-18, the things which are, in John’s time period chapter 2 and 3 about the seven churches of Asia, finally, the things hereafter which begins in chapter 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, AND I WILL SHEW THEE THINGS WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER. However, in Revelation chapter 10:3-7 it was told him NOT TO WRITE. Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. Verse 7 is the key to explain why information or knowledge and prophesies given are for the two prophets time frame. Verse 7 say But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The mystery of God shall be FINISHED which God has declared or told to his servants the prophets. #3 Most importantly, A CLEAR REFUTATION TEXT that PROVES the two prophets are in the FUTURE: GIFTS OF PROPHECY(PROPHETS) FOR TODAY. Furthermore, THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL will be #1 taken care and protect and #2 from the FACE OF THE SERPENT(the Beast or Antichrist) FOR 3 AND A HALF YEARS. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Thereby, all Israel being saved Romans 11:26, Revelation 12 women represents Israel. The two prophets are prophesying for 3 and a half years. They are visibly and CLEARLY there in the tie of the Beast. Revelation 11:3 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation The Beast years he reigns are 3 and a half years, interesting. The Two prophets are in the latter time because the beast, the Antichrist, or Wicked one arises out of the bottomless pit and kills the TWO PROPHETS. Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Also, to take note, the Beast rules for 3 and a half years. Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. This is 3 and a half YEARS: same timeline as the TWO prophets. This beast and false prophet are DESTROYED OR KILLED by Jesus in Revelation chapter 19:20,21. In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom THE LORD SHALL CONSUME with the spirit of his mouth, and SHALL DESTROY with the brightness of HIS COMING. **As a result, notice the TIME LINE: #1, the children of Israel are SAVED FROM THE BEAST; #2 IT WAS THE BEAST WHO KILLS THE TWO WITNESSES; thereby, #3, the TWO PROPHETS are in the time of the Beast; #4, it is Jesus Christ who DESTROYS THE BEAST OR ANTICHRIST. Therefore, THE TIME PERIOD FITS.. ITS ALL IN THE SAME PERIOD. JOHN LIVED THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. Thus, the gifts of the Spirit are for TODAY**

Contrary to what you say, no Protestant/Pentecostal takes a high view of John 6.

@Zilam

2 жыл бұрын

Which part of John 6? The feeding of the 5000? Walking on water? Bread of life?

Reformed Evangelicals enjoying modern jazz !?!?! Is that Biblical? Seems like a slippery slope to me! 😉