I love this kind of discussion. Lots of wisdom going on here.

@democratpro

3 жыл бұрын

God told me you would say that

@Mojo32

Жыл бұрын

@@democratpro 😂

@lewislibre

Жыл бұрын

Only from Doug’s part sadly 😂

The beautiful thing about truth is it stands the test of time. Just saw this tonight. It is amazing conversation and Spirit driven.

Driscoll kills it! Thankful God is still using him even now.

@UltraAar

4 жыл бұрын

@Veiled Heat Hes still doing ministry

@nimmero

4 жыл бұрын

@StAnthony Be careful. He did not repent of his sins and he restored himself. He did not take requiered church discipline.

@nimmero

4 жыл бұрын

@StAnthony I just said that he is not qualified to be a pastor until he repents of those specific sins which were public and which did hurt many people. I said nothing about him not being a christian.

@nimmero

4 жыл бұрын

@StAnthony please give me link to videos where he repented publically. And I am sure that when you plagiarize someones book, you should give him money back etc. Just repentance without further deeds do not seem to me as very sincere. He also said that God give him vision that it is a trap in MH and so he left it. This is very concerning. This reminds me of Benny Hinn's "repentance".

@nimmero

4 жыл бұрын

@StAnthony Thank you for reminding me of that I need to do it every day because God's word commands every christian to do that. I make many mistakes. I could not be a pastor because of that, I think that I am not qualified according to scriptures to do it right now. Just as Mark. If you think that I have a log in my eye... maybe I have but I pray to God that he would remove it! But I do not want somebody to lead people when he is not qualified. What does James say? That teachers will be judged more strictly. Just preaching real Gospel does not make you qualified pastor/elder in Church. Read what Bible says in 1. Timothy 3 and in Titus.

Doug asks something to the effect of 'How can you affirm that the Holy Spirit is still active and alive and without fear of adding to the closed cannon of Scripture?' -- Good question and relevant if you are a Cessationist. Here is what I was taught: That the miracles and gifts like healing were evidence of Jesus authority and power and that He called them "the signs of the coming of the kingdom of God" as well as "the signs that the kingdom of God HAS COME" Matt 10:5-8. There are other verses were Jesus and the Apostles speak about gifts and miracles being signs of the kingdom of God. So is should then be asked: Has the coming of the kingdom of God.. ceased? I believe that the cannon of Scripture can be closed and you can still maintain that spiritual gifts continue because the kingdom of God has come... and that those are signs.

@poppyozark

4 жыл бұрын

Good point

@dougwebster1813

4 жыл бұрын

If Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever and He is alive in me isn’t He still working miracles through me! Of course! I was explaining to an unbeliever I had just met about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and when I talked about the word of knowledge I said it would be like knowing your name was John Backer and your wife is Susan and you live 245 Walnut St. He stepped back and said how did you know all that? Without even knowing it God gave me a word of knowledge about this guy! We were both amazed but the end result of God showing him that He knew all about him he prayed with me right then and there to receive Christ into his heart! Jesus wants to do through His body the church what He did when walked on the earth two thousand years ago! Blessings! Now go and do likewise!

@jimgrossman5367

4 жыл бұрын

What about the 2 prophets in Rev 11? Will not their words be the words of God?

@bjones5791

3 жыл бұрын

Doug Webster Wow!!How sweet is THAT!!!Thanks for sharing😁

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

Ok, good point. However, there is still some problems, unanswered questions. We only know these things, what Jesus said, because we have the New Testament. Canonicity is really a historical issue, as well as a matter of faith, that we believe the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church. So that brings up the problems of Ecclesiology, the nature of the Church itself, and again we only know what Jesus said about the Church because of the New Testament. Nevertheless, to prevent a chicken and the egg scenario, we have to affirm the historical events, because the Gospel is fundamentally a historical thing, the story of Jesus of Nazareth. The implications of that story are immense, and of critical importance. Here is where theology enters, a somewhat necessary evil. But real humans were involved at every stage of the process, flesh and blood people, no different from you or I. These people comprise the Church, built on "the foundations of the apostles and the prophets" as Paul says, again in the New Testament. That Church is many things, including the bride of Christ, one flesh with him and in him. That Church decided which writings to include, which to exclude, and what degree of authority these writings had. This process was by no means automatic or without huge difficulties. Nevertheless, we have today a New Testament which with very few exceptions is universal to all Christians, Orthodox, Catholic and Reformed. Therefore, let us affirm these things.

@Canon Press Thank you for keeping this interview up! So relevant to conversations today.

I loved watching this! Thanks for posting. These guys need to get together more often

'...you're a charismatic in denial...' Amazing! Very good interview!

This is a must see video. Doug Wilson (who calls himself a Cessationist) describes receiving a word of knowledge around 12:34.

@frankjackson9821

3 жыл бұрын

What about you? Are you a Cessationist?

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

@@frankjackson9821 Well, here's the thing, no one is a Cessationist in actuality, only in doctrine. My comment hints at that fact.

@frankjackson9821

3 жыл бұрын

@@duncescotus2342 I was just looking for a yes or no, but anyway your answer is fine, btw, I’m a cessationist in this strange, weird world.

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

@@frankjackson9821 Ok, a honest brother, that in itself is amazing and commendable. But tell, what comes first, the Church or the Bible? And how do we know this?

@frankjackson9821

3 жыл бұрын

@@duncescotus2342 the church or the Bible? Not sure what you mean. To me the truth is most important and if I can’t have complete truth then I’ll settle for as much of it I can get.

This was a great blessing.....I was just assaulted by a group of cessationists on the internet, so was delighted to run into this video. To tell the truth, I didn't know what cessationism was or why anyone would want to prove that it was true.

@chingkarles4811

Жыл бұрын

You know this guy went crazy right 😂

@davidhess1019

Жыл бұрын

@@chingkarles4811 No, but I do know that Cessationists are steeped in unbelief and that will make you insane.

@Mojo32

Жыл бұрын

😂 you were assaulted by words (that were typed)! 😂

@tomtemple69

9 ай бұрын

because many people claim to have them yet are lying

@davidhess1019

9 ай бұрын

@@tomtemple69 Doesn't change the Word of God that so many of you say is sufficient does it?

Great conversation 👍🔥🔥🔥

Lots of great commentary. 5:58 Mark Driscoll warning against his future self, prophetically.

“And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark‬ ‭16‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬)

"The world is a magical place. A lot of screwy things happen". Doesn't Doug's comment beautifully summarize our world? :)

Doug got a word of knowledge and used it correctly to help the lady. Well done.

Very good discussion

I definitely like Doug Wilson's spirit or attitude, but frankly, its as though he has a relationship with the book but hardly any personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. Yes, I believe in the verbal, plenary, infalible inspiration of the scriptures. I believe the Holy Spirit oversaw the composition, compilation and preservation of the Bible so as to constitute complete inerancy in the original autographs. But guess what! That same Holy Spirit who preserved the Bible so we could judge all things, Jesus said he would lead us, guide us, comfort us, teach us, show us things to come, convict us, lead us unto all truth and more! For those who have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as those in Acts 2,4,8,9,10 and 19, it is so grevious to see sincere and deeply devoted believers who have not "yet" experienced the precious infilling of the Holy Spirit. For those who have received the amazing and wonderful experience, they simply look at those who have not and feel a sense of sadness because they have no idea what they are missing out on! The Holy Spirit is so wonderful and amazing because he illuminates the Word of God, he aids in the approriation of the atonement and the exaltation of the Christ and he guides and teaches so wonderfully. What is pitiful and rather pathetic really, is to hear people speak disparagingly about those who have received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit when many of them have deeper, richer and more sound theology, read the text in the original languages and have a more profound and comprehensive understanding of the development of theological streams throughout history. And becasuse of supernatural empowerment of the Holy Spirit baptism and obedience to the Word of God they are aiding in the advancement of the cause of Christ and the propogation of the Gospel at "Biblical proportions"!

This was an interesting discussion.

I grew up Pentecostal, and never once did I find that their prophecies, miracles, etc. were genuine. I am fully cessationist today !!! Wilson is right here, and Driscoll has gone off the rails since this time.

It sounds like Doug's father is a legitimate New Testament evangelist. They catch people almost like magic, but it's not magic it's Holy Spirit gifting and leading. Wonderful to watch such work.

Doug Wilson stated that Cessationist are concerned mainly with bible boundaries being eroded (14:50). Spiritual Gifts as is the title of this video, if used correctly, would never do that! Paul stated that the gifts, especially prophecy are for "edification, exhortation, and comfort" (1 Cor 14:3).

“I forgot my second thought because I went to public school” 🤣🤣

2 men i have GREAT respect for.

The thing I do not understand about cessationism is the Biblical justification for the position. The spiritual gifts that manifested among the first century Christians and recorded in the Bible were never accompanied with an expiration date or conditioned to a particular era or circumstance. It seems, in that sense, cessationism is an unbiblical position.

This was a wonderful thoughtful discussion between two respectfully men. I agree that charismatic gifting are still present in this age but must be employed under authority of the elders and Pastors. It’s a orderly process otherwise it is chaos and confusion. No every prophecy is true nor prophet. That’s Jesus warning in Matthew 24.

Great discussion!

The words of Christ in Mark 16, "these signs shall follow them that believe; In My Name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." God has given us all authority because He is in us and He is still the same yesterday, today and forever!

@toddcote4904

4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately my friend, those versus were not in the original manuscripts.

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”” ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

Hello friend of Christ, this scripture cannot possibly be sufficient to affirm a large doctrinal point such as Cessationism, that God put an end to an Apostolic Age, that the coming of the New Testament changed the way God desires to reveal truth to his believers and that the miraculous and supernatural gifts given to the individual believer are not now and have not been present since the end of that period. As such Cessationism is a form of Dispensationalism. There are many sub-issues surrounding this big one. I don't pretend to have complete understanding, as I was active in Pentecostalism by default. I never really went looking for the gifts of the Spirit, but I found them by accident. My experience is that they are very real, but that there is much carnality involved. This is a problem, a big one, and we need to address it. To that end, I recommend the guys from Remnant Radio who are having a conversation on these kinds of things on their KZread channel. I don't think we can afford to be divided on major doctrinal points anymore. We need a new Reformation to decide these things. It may be happening now. I urge you and all to think and pray on these things. I only play the fool to get a conversation going. We are all one in Christ.

@mjhickson4339

3 жыл бұрын

@@duncescotus2342 It is a fact that rampant indiscretion towards sin in gatherings of “the body” has denied almost all true power in the “holy spirit” hence its laughable conjuring by people doomed to hell fire unless they repent. As well as the prevalence of today’s insistence of cessation which is just as un provable as many other yet to be revealed things beyond our understanding. The fact is if cessationalism is true their can be no two witnesses with power yet to come. But since the so called canon is held in such high esteem as it is nearly impossible to disregard it in any way, why do such people say God does not...or seek to put limits on the Holy one that He NEVER INDICATED IN ANY WAY in scripture? Because they are relying on their own understanding and think the power of spiritual gifts relies on their experience of them. Let me be clear, spiritual gifts and Power exist for yesterday today and tomorrow. Their only lacks the faith and obedience to God’s will as revealed in scripture and people could move mountains and call fire down from heaven, live long enough you’ll see it yourself. And I am not a wild christian emotionalist, I am tired, tired of all the conformity and compromise tired of all the showboating, endless office holding, pompous arrogant lying shepherds with lying hearts and clean lips. There is going to be a devastating reckoning of judgement on the leadership of the house of god. It begins with the house of God. Any. Day. Now.

Here is a follow up question regarding the incident of the wife and abusive husband. Say the investigation does happen and it is found that the husband was not being abusive. What does the one receiving such revelation do with that? Initially he thought it was from the Spirit but it could not have been since it was not true.

@TheBluntNinja

3 жыл бұрын

MD answered with "hit him with a crowbar"😅

"Greater works then these you shall do." I've seen God heal people's backs, eyes, ears, and perform other miracles through his people. Myself included. God never intended these to cease until we reach eternity.

@daveg2199

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting but all of those are temporary “healings”. The greater things are working with the spirit in preaching the Gospel and souls are saved for “eternal healing” thats how I understand it.

@Mojo32

Жыл бұрын

Plus aren't the healings in the Bible (dare I say) miracles; deformities from birth (lame ligaments, complete blindness, etc.) and raising people from the dead? Seems to be a bit different. 🤔

"cessationalists" do NOT believe that the Holy Spirit is no longer active. how do people get saved if this were the case? "cessationalist" also do not believe that miraculous healings no longer happen. what they do believe is that there are no more healers, miracle workers, or new revelation.

@reinamatheny9972

5 жыл бұрын

You might as well say the Holy Spirit is no longer active by saying the gifts are no longer given~ it LIMITS His power or takes AWAY His ability ~ no no no~ He is 100 PERCENT still active in EVERY way~ I am new to this Cessationalism idea but I do know that~ my convictions are VERY strong. His Spirit bears witness to mine that something is wrong with Cessationalism. I will continue to study about it and if I am wrong it will be from God's Word or His Spirit making it known to me.

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 жыл бұрын

I have no problem w/ the dispensation of the apostles being over and it's easy to accept that there were 12 chosen apostles, they served their purpose, co wrote most of the NT and that is past. W/ all the explicit teaching about spiritual gifts, it makes no sense to take all that teaching away from Christians for all time, but apply the rest of the bible for us. "Forbid not to speak in tongues", "most desire to prophesy", "all scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof...". Yet it's people who are otherwise very sound on standing on the bible as the standard, as we all should be, that reject the gifts outright. W/ Satan going about as a roaring lion, why would God leave us handycapped, w/ the dark side having the supernatural power at their command? Really now.

I love this discussion

When your seeking answers to questions to pressing issues, its fundamental to realise the bible provides the answers. Just as Doug Wilson in a concise illustration, of the woman involved in a cult, he then came forth to a verse, that explained what was occurring. Cite 11:57 - 12:35.

Question around 3:20 implies that all prophetic revelation must be in scripture. That's based on a false assumption since the Bible refers to many prophecies, but doesn't quote them, e.g. the prophets who met Saul after he met Samuel, books of prophets not mentioned in scripture.

"When Satan tempted Christ, what did he use?" He used scripture, but to his own ends. He had bargained with Christ for with the rulership of the world for submission to him, he had appealed to Christs flesh (or what would be human flesh) and he appealed to Christ's sense of arrogance. ...but Christ, knowing the scriptures, as we should all know, was able to counter Satan, which is probably what one would do when they examined what they believe to be a word from God.

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

Hi sister, an astute comment. Note how Jesus rebuked him with "it is written..." three times. The word of God in our mouths is powerful! Yes, the enemy tempts us to with misunderstandings in regard to the scripture. That's why we study, compare verse against verse, pray, and seek to always be "led by the Spirit." I pray the Lord continue to reveal his word to you with power, as Paul says, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation..." Please pray for me that God give me the words to build bridges of conversation on this issue of Cessationism vs Continuationism, though I don't like these labels. I think we're talking about the work of the Holy Spirit, and we need to show more reverence, less dogmatism, and be more open, all while holding tight to the written word, "a word of prophecy more sure," as Peter calls it.

Testing the spirits does not mean all prophecies are written in the Bible. What did the prophets who met Saul prophesy? What did Saul prophesy? What did the sons of the prophets around Elijah and Elisha prophesy? What did Michaiah prophesy before Ahab said, "he never says anything good about me"? What did Iddo the Seer prophesy? What did the 7 thunders say, that John was not allowed to write in scripture?

We are waiting for the next volume...at least according to the last volume of the last volume.

God doesnt change, and christ is in us.

I disagree with a lot of what Doug Wilson says, but he is a delight to listen to. Such a funny man!

A person who does not know what they are saying is still able to control weather they say anything at all, as for the gift of tongues 1 cor. 14:2 says "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries." Paul thanked God that he spoke in tongues, so they are obviously worth pursuing. The Corinthians were guilty of abusing gifts and yet Paul had them pursue even more gifts not abandon them.

Sir do you know why Calvin had Michael servetus killed? I know why for preaching water baptism and Jesus name only. I fear John Calvin never repented on like Paul who repented for persecuting the church. Who are you going to be me the man with the keys to the kingdom Peter who preached the new birth experience on the day of Pentecost(savuot) Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins

@wjhornsby

10 жыл бұрын

Hey Barney, Servetus was a non-trinitarian, believing that Jesus, the Son, was "generated" at conception and not eternal. Having him executed was a horrific, sinful act in my view, however, water baptism was not his main issue.

@genavieveshaw5654

5 жыл бұрын

@wjhornsby....so we should have all heretics tortured and burned.

so how do u explain the charismatic experience of God speaking to him about marrying his wife, teaching the Bible, plant churches, and train men?

I don't understand how you can believe that an unseen God raised a man 3 days dead and now have an issue with tongues. If it wasn't for tangible supernatural gifts I would have been an atheist or hindu or something else long ago.

@graysontheovercomer

5 жыл бұрын

Niles Jackson good news! That’s what the gifts are for, to make disciples. My issues with charismatic theology is that the spiritual gifts are often used for the sake of the church rather than the sake of the world which not only mocks their intention, but also diminishes their true power which is to bring lost people to Jesus.

@k.m.9801

3 жыл бұрын

Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe: Jesus.

I don't get it, the question is whether apostolic *gifts* have ceased, but the examples they keep bringing up are dreams and visions. Those are not gifts are they?

@beowulf.reborn

4 жыл бұрын

The example Doug Wilson gives, of him trying to save the woman from the cult, and then as he is reading Scripture he receives knowledge she is in adultery, that is the Gift of the Holy Spirit known as the Word of Knowledge. It is when God supernatural imparts Knowledge about a person, a place, an event etc. And then the person can speak directly to the subject of the Knowledge in a way that exposes sin, heals wounds, or furthers the Gospel. Many Preachers throughout history, including Spurgeon, had this Gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is a reason why cessationists have not been the principle vanguards of the growth of evangelicalism in pagan societies, i. e. the great evangalisms of Africa and South America in the 20th century. And what do cessationists say about the 1000s of testimonies of Muslims who are reporting of Jesus coming to them in dreams and open visions. Incidentally, I befriended a Muslim once who came a retreat and reported that the man praying for him spoke in tongues in Arabic?

I Thessalonians 5:19: Quench not the Spirit. I Thessalonians 5:20: Despise not prophesyings. I Thessalonians 5:21a: Prove all things.... I Thessalonians 5:21b: ...hold fast that which is good.

"Nobody gets to just talk". They don't allow prophecies in the meetings? I Corinthians 14 says to allow it. It doesn't say to run it by the elders first. The elders aren't even mentioned. Prophets are.

@carlosrodas423

2 жыл бұрын

If anyone has a word of G-d in the letter to the Corinthians, Paul tells us that it should be tested rather than simply accepted. What we have in many charismatic and Pentecostal churches is that they don't follow this chapter of Corinthians you're quoting. Firstly, many people are speaking in tongues at the same time, secondly, there's the absence of interpretation, and thirdly, if there is somebody giving a prophecy, it is accepted as a prophecy simply because it was uttered, rather than that word being judged/evaluated as that same chapter explains should be done. The end result, then, is that anyone who stands up with a supposed prophecy has an immediate authority in that gathering because there are no biblical protocols, and the person who is believed to have a prophetic gift has their words accepted as authoritative and as being of G-d simply for having the words be uttered in the middle of a service. You can't tell me that's not the case in many charismatic Pentecostal churches. It follows that pattern, contrary to what Paul told the Corinthians, far more often than otherwise.

@SaudaraLink

2 жыл бұрын

@@carlosrodas423 I spent some of my formative years in Assemblies of God churches. We moved a bit, so I say churches. In one in particular, I know there were leaders who taught against the idea of everyone speaking in tongues at the same time without interpretation. Prophecies and interpretations of tongues were not that common in this one church. In the other church, in practice, it functioned the same way. Tongues were followed by interpretation. The 'Full Gospel' church I went to in elementary school was the same way. If I heard uninterpreted tongues there, if I recall correctly, it was kind of a rare thing. But I have also seen a lot of churches where they are even encouraged to all speak in tongues at the same time, and others where they practice it. The A/G denomination seems to have both types, but it seems like in my experience that fewer churches have the everyone-speaking-in-tongues-at-the-same time thing than have it. But some of my experience is from Indonesia, not just the US. When I have discussed this with Pentecostals, some of them think the instructions to have an interpreter only apply to the type of tongue that addresses the assembly, and that I Corinthians 14:28-- and let him speak to himself and to God-- can be done in church meetings out loud but not directed at the assembly. I don't care for the culture of everyone praying out loud in English. Some people interpret all praying in Acts 4 that way. I don't. Some of the churches where they pray in tongues at the same time, they do the same in English, like in some of the Pentecostal churches in the Appalachians. I Corinthians 14 does not give much detail on 'let the other judge', as to how that is done. One of the problems I see with this is the lack of attention paid to detail when it comes to scripture on these topics. I think some of the Pentecostals would interpret that, or at least in practice how they might try to apply it, is for each individual to judge their own heart. I prefer having some discussion--or turn-taking in addressing the assembly with edifying speech. But I see in scripture many members of the body of Christ participating in church meetings. Certain I Corinthians 14 gives instructions based on that assumption, where 'every one of you' is allowed to sing, teach, share revelations, tongues and interpretations within the guidelines of a passage. In a meeting of the church in Acts, different members spoke about the issue of Gentile circumcision. There may have been some discussion/decision making going on in Acts 11 when Agabus signified an upcoming famine, and the church decided to send aid to the poor saints in Jerusalem. Also, in many Pentecostal churches these days, you don't see tongues, interpretation, or prophecies given out unless the speaker has to prophesy, sometimes without letting on that he is doing so. Services may be rather conservative evangelical but with a Pentecostal style of music, and a move more toward the clergy-centered meeting and further away from what I Corinthians 14 describes, the one long lengthy passage we have on what to do in church as far as speaking for edification is concerned. I hope we would both agree that churches should follow scripture even of some of the churches that practice spiritual gifts use them in improper order. Forbidding their use is contrary to scripture, just as disorderly use is.

As a side note, when God came down on the Holy Mount to speak in the wilderness to the children of Israel, they were terrified. I guess it would be an under statement to say they were spooked. Thunder and fire and dark clouds. Yes, we are afraid. The people then failed to follow on to know the Lord when they told Moses to go speak to God for them and report back. They error ed there. God wanted them to approach and learn more. Instead, in essence, they told Moses to leave the supernatural stuff on the hill, and bring them a book. It was for them God and a book with nothing supernatural. That's how a view Cessationists.

So,, what did He sound like?

It amazes me how unkind and ungracious people claiming to be Christians are on this forum. People are flawed and people fall. To automatically negate what Mark did, which was often very good, is not a proper Christian thing to do. If you disagree, that is fine, please do. Reject what you see as improper as you are indeed called to do so. However, one should always do so with a little humility (or maybe a lot) because YOU are not God and YOU do not know the end of all things. WE will not know how this all shakes out until we stand before God. So, to state things categorically as if you are the final arbiter of theology is to be very dangerously close to placing yourself on someone else's seat (God's). Stand up, get on your knees and pray for a wounded brother and actually put your faith to work for good rather than evil - which is what I would call the MEANNESS of so many of these posts.

@ThatOne77

9 жыл бұрын

+Joel Appenzeller "Wounded??" That term refers to someone who has been hurt while fighting the good fight. My eyes are bleeding! Sheesh. Phil WOUNDED HIMSELF! He needs and needed to go through church discipline. I never have trusted him...and I certainly wouldn't trust him now. My first impression of this video...in the first couple of minutes...reminds me of a mature adult interviewing a young child who has too much education, and is still a child.

the purpose is to show Gods love and when you have witches performing miracles and people going to become one we need to show that we serve the true God

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

The scripture only testifies to "lying signs and wonders" in regard to the "son of Perdition." No, on second thought, your'e right. The young girl in Acts, the seven sons of Sceva, the witch of Endor, etc. But, I think we need to be careful. The Lord was testified to by the miraculous from his birth to his ascension. All of it supernatural. Without miracles, there is no Christian faith. There are genuine signs and we need to honor those works, as they can only be done through the gift of the Holy Spirit. The vessel may be clay, (carnal, Adamic, made of earth dust) but the gift within is a treasure: "We have this treasure in an earthen vessel that the excellency of the power may be of God and not us." (2 Cor. 4:7) I'm reminded of another scripture also: "When Peter saw this, he said to them: 'Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?" (Acts 3:12) So, it's not by our own power, but the indwelling Spirit of Christ, that miracles occur. We cannot, however, affirm the cessation of such things, or say that miracles may only occur through a one directional divine "sovereign" act, without the cooperation of a believer, through who God is present. That Apostles exist today, or sometime in the past, is another matter, and tied up in the Cessationist issue. My point is that the same Christ who indwelt his people then, does so today and always has. I can't possibly understand everything. There may be "dispensations" or separations of divine activity to times and places, but blanket Cessationism is a grave error and blockage not only to an individual's victorious faith over sin in his or her life, but the unity of the Church, which must prepare herself as a bride to meet her groom. Please think and pray on these things. Pray for me that I may be given the words to build bridges of conversation. I play the dogmatic, antagonistic fool, only as a mirror, that we would all get tired of us vs. them, work toward re-discovering the common ground of the Holy Christian faith, and come to a consensus on basics of doctrine, leave room for mystery, and preach the Gospel to "every living creature."

@myheroacademia2736

3 жыл бұрын

@@duncescotus2342 I think that is a very wise perspective you have, well-spoken.

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

@@myheroacademia2736 Well thank you brother Ron. I can't believe you read my ramblings! I've since (in the last few months) honed my arguments for the sake of brevity and clarity: 1. The "gifts" are for today, and for all times and places 2. But they're "gifts," that is, by grace and divine will, but.. 3. Not without our co-operation. If this is a paradox... 4. So be it. Amen?

God bless heal and save you

I’m a new Christian but I can astral project… not sure what to do with this info.

@enigma4526

2 жыл бұрын

Pray. We are told to not dabble with divination and necromancy.

Testing the spirits doesn't mean all prophecy is in scripture. Why would it mean that? Btw, what did the 7 thunders say? John wasn't allowed to write that in scripture, but it was revelation.

@diegovalleperez3360

3 жыл бұрын

@SaudaraLink Disagree! Everything is in the Bible, if is not, is not from God. The angel that said to John to seal whatever the seven thunders said and don’t write it, can be know through the scriptures and John doesn’t need to write it down to know the meaning. Thunder is often a mark of judgment in Scripture as in 1 Samuel 2:10, 2 Samuel 22:14, and several more places in Revelation (8:5, 11:19, 16:18), so these seven powerful voices are crying out for God’s judgment upon the sinful earth. The thunder represents the voice of God. Psalm 18:13 says, “The LORD thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded.” Further evidence of the seven thunders being the voice of God is in Revelation 4:5: “From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. They’re about the final judgment at Jesus second coming.

@SaudaraLink

3 жыл бұрын

@@diegovalleperez3360 The problem with your position is that the apostles did not teach it and the scriptures do not teach it. It goes beyond confessions also. The scriptures contain what is needed to be wise unto salvation, not all that may be known of God. The scriptures, and confessions also teach that God has revealed Himself in creation. The scriptures teach that God communicates to men through dreams, spiritual gifts etc. Where does scripture rescind or xancel these teachings? Why hold to a theological position that trues to limit God's sovereignty-- insisting that God will not do things scripture shows He has done in the past and that scripture does not teach that He will not do?

@diegovalleperez3360

3 жыл бұрын

@SaudaraLink That’s the thing, I agreed that God revealed himself through nature but that happens since the beginning of the creation and that is in the Bible. And here comes the debate, my opinion, spiritual gifts and dreams are over. They were for the apostles and people of the first century, until 70AD because there purpose was for to proclaim judgement to Jerusalem. The only gifts that ceased is tongues, healing and dreams (to talk to us and is not a spiritual gift) there cannot be new revelation, and God talks to the generations through the scriptures and my biblical evidence is Matthew 24:14. Which that verse already happened. Nobody is holding or limiting God’s sovereignty. He can do miracles at any time but miracles are not spiritual gifts.

@SaudaraLink

3 жыл бұрын

@@diegovalleperez3360 The problem with your theory is that scripture does not teach it. Let's take dreams. Where does the Bible say that God will stop speaking through dreams in 70 AD? These type of spiritual dreams predate the apostles. Even Gentiles could have them. Pharaoah dreamed about an upcoming famine. Nebucadnezzer had dreams that Pharoah interpreted. One of the men in a Midianite camp had a dream about an upcoming invasion and another had an interpretation about Gideon. Consider Job 33, from an ancient conversation from the land of Uz. 14 For God may speak in one way, or in another, Yet man does not perceive it. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, While slumbering on their beds, 16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction. 17 In order to turn man from his deed, And conceal pride from man, 18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.(NKJV) Since dreams predated the twelve apostles why would they cease with the twelve apostles? And why would the destruction of Jerusalem have anything to do with it? Biblically, why would tongues and prophecy have ceased? I Corinthians 13 of that which is perfect being done away when that which is perfect is come. But look at the context. First of all, if we read I Corinthians 1:7, as Paul was preparing to write this epistle which would address the topic of spiritual gifts and the resurrection at the second coming at the return of Christ. I Corinthians 13 must be interpreted in this light. When that which is perfect comes, Paul's speech, thinking, and understanding back then... back when he was writing scripture, shall be like a child's in comparison to his speech, thinking, and understanding when that which is perfect is come. Did the destruction of Jerusalem cause Paul's understanding of things to be light year's beyond what it was? Did it make your understanding much greater than that of the apostles who wrote scripture? Certain cessationist varieties of interpretation of I Corinthians 13 are truly poor and bizarre and hence rejected by other cessationists. John Calvin called interpretations of I Corinthians 13 that had the perfect coming before either death or the resurrection 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation.

@SaudaraLink

2 жыл бұрын

@@diegovalleperez3360 I cann't find this idea in the Bible, "Disagree! Everything is in the Bible, if is not, is not from God." Based on your reasoning I should reject your idea as not being from God. Romans 1 indicates certain things are revealed about God through creation. In I Corinthians 14, we see that an unbeliever who comes to church may hear the secrets of his heart made manifest through prophesying.

Wow, Mark Driscoll is a reform Calvanist, and, also believes in the gifts of the spirits and is not a cessationist? Who would have thunk it. I like his teaching a lot, just not the Calvanist/predestination part. I've always been a plain jane non-denominational Christian that leans a bit pentacostal, never dreaming so much of the Christian world thinks there are all those scriptures teaching about the gifts, but they aren't for us, even though they are incl. in our new covenant books of the bible? Baffling, but we are mixed up body. We are all still part of the body even if we can't agree on the extraneous points outside the fundamental gospel truths of salvation.

@SWillTiamG

4 жыл бұрын

You don't like that he teaches biblical salvation?

@danmannz

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah my background is that I grew up in a pentecostal baptist church. I'm currently in a more normal baptist church, the music is horrible and I do miss all the spiritual encounters. I would describe myself as a non-denominational Christian too. I take things and learn from all denominations. The latest truth that I've learnt is postmillennialism. I was actually thinking about joining a reformed church / presbyterian church because of it. But then I learnt that they are all calvinist (not 100% if I can go with that, I'll have to do more research). But yeah the cessationist thing is a game killer.

@saintejeannedarc9460

3 жыл бұрын

@@danmannz It seems these days (except for rare exceptions depending on a good pastor), that the reform and most Catholic churches are the few safe havens away from the progressive and woke madness now. My old man is Catholic, so I go to Mass the odd time I go. I'm in Canada and they still don't allow singing up here, so it's gutted for me. There's a lot I love about the Catholic church too. Did a bit of a dive into checking out the historical churches and which is where the history of our roots as Christians lives. I have a deeper appreciation for the rituals that Catholics, Lutherans, and Orthodox perform in their masses. It's not just a boring ritual to me, the more I understand that every rote expresses the gospel and is based on some scripture. It's kind of nice to have full body, plus spiritual experience as well. We watchc a number of pastors and priests here. Pastor John Mcarthur is a big favourite. Pastor Mark Driscoll (who went independent, after the wokearaddi took over his church and forced him out). For priests, Father Mark Goring and Father Altman. Ft James Altman just got dismissed from his dioscese, after speaking out against the covid hoax all last year. It's a big huge deal when Catholic priests, bishops etc speak out, because the heirarchy is so top heavy and they are under authority in a much sterner way than any denomination. Anyhoo, I'm not Catholic, no plans of officially changing either, but I've always went to any church handy, and started incl. Catholic churches, starting w/ charismatic ones (that do express the gifts and have lively worship) about 15 or so years ago. Oh and several Canadian pastors that have resisted the lockdowns since they figured things out. Up here, there's true and heavy persecution of the church. 4 pastors have been arrested and jailed, and we have over 50 church burnings, supposedly over the "mass graves" at the residential schools. More woke madness and re-writing of history. Check out Pastor Artur Pawlowski and Pastor Hildebrand

@danmannz

3 жыл бұрын

​@@saintejeannedarc9460 Interesting stuff, I feel so bad for you Canadians,I get the feeling that you a country of nice agreeable people. Most don't want to rock the boat. Yeah, All of New Zealand has lost its religious freedom, due to the lockdowns.. I might know one or two of New Zealanders that actually care about it (only because I convinced them, too many sheep in New Zealand).. Speaking about Catholics, I went to a traditional Latin mass, they gave out translations. watching the ceremony and listening and actually knowing what was happening was amazing. Knowing this is how my ancestors 500 + years ago worshipped God was so powerful. The anointing was all over the service. the priest not facing you, it felt like he was giving more respect to God, and he was more of an equal as we were all facing the front together. The singing was beautiful. Jesus was so being glorified. It was the greatest play on earth.

@saintejeannedarc9460

2 жыл бұрын

@@danmannz Hi, unexpected answer there. Not near enough Christians out there w/ a true ecumenical spirit. I put out little feelers, but I usually get a diatribe and lecture in return, railing against Catholics. You've likely heard it all before too. Not sure I'd go as far as the Latin Mass, but the Catholics that love it swear it's the only way. They think the newer one is too "protestant". It's all good. As long as we're not progressive or new age, which has infiltrated like a flood, it's all good. If God isn't concerned about all our petty differences, I sure cannot be.

Sometimes communication seems impossible. How on earth do you come to that conclusion when they talk elsewhere about testing the spirits- 4.35 etc

Revelation chapter 1 verse 8 I am Alpha Omega the beginning and the ending saith the Lord which is in which was and which is to csome the all Mighty, I ask how many Almighty's can there be?

Harold camping did not believe in tongues or the gifts. He would not call predicting the end prophecy rather an academic prediction.

@carlosrodas423

2 жыл бұрын

It was quite a bit more than an academic prediction.

The answer is easy to the question 'how can you affirm the Holy Spirit is active today'? If anything that you hear from a platform, by any speaker, is in contradiction to the written word, that is not from the Holy Spirit. Now you may use your own words to explain different things, preachers do this all the time, but it is when the theology of scripture is contradicted 2 Timothy 3:16, that is where the problem begins to set in!

“You need to be under authority and of Biblical character.” Yet Driscoll, the grifting narcissist, openly spoke of God giving him direct revelations. (His wife, too.)

The gifts are still here because the Holy Spirit is still here! lol. Last week we had all these high schoolers show up to worship and had two missionaries from bethel there. In short, like one kid got healed, told everyone in his class, so like 40 high schoolers show up, get just touched and wrecked by the spirit. These volleyball and football players got healed and the many of the elders just started getting words for them like problems in their lives and prophesying and healing them. SO NUTS!

Closed canon? If the canon is closed, would that forbid prophecy?, (as Doug asked at minute 3 thru 3:42). The cessationnists are badly mistaken here. Let's put an end to that argument here and now: The scripture plainly says that not all words of every prophet are recorded. For example, consider Acts 11:27-28 "And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. (28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar." Do you think this was the only thing that this "prophet" ever prophesied??????? What about the other "prophets" that came up from Antioch . . . Were any of their words recorded as Bible canon??????? what about Act 21:9 "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy." Did any of these prophecies get recorded???? etc etc etc etc etc etc etc For a nit-picky technical answer, the Bible does not specify whether it is complete, or whether we should be adding to it, other than saying the words of Jesus will never pass away (Matt 24:35 & Mark 13:31 & Luke 21:33), and that the book of Revelation is not to be added to or taken away from (Rev 22:18). If you believe everything God spoke or did was recorded in the Bible, then you might be putting limits on God per John 20:30 & 21:25. God has all sorts of books that we don't know about, including the book of Life per Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5, 13:8, 15:8, 20:15, 21:27, and other books per Rev 5:1-9, 10:2-10, yes many books per Rev 20:12, and these are only the New Testament scriptures. In the Old Testament we find the book of Jasher was mentioned in Joshua 10:13 & 2 Samual 1:18. Also Jude 1:14-15 quotes Enoch. Who removed these books from the cannon? It was either some committee or Constatine, either way, you are trusting man's decision that the Bible is complete. You are also trusting man's teachings in saying that God does not speak, because the Bible clearly says the opposite. There are other books mentioned in the OT such as the "Wars of the Lord" from Numbers 21:14. What about the book Samual wrote in 1 Sam 10:25, . . . Is that one in the Bible? 1 & 2 Samual, maybe? We don't know. What about the acts of Solomon from 1 Kings 11:41? What about the book of Nathan and of Gad, mentioned in 1 Chron 29:29? Also read 2 Chron 9:29 & 12:15, & 20:34. What happened to the book that Baruch wrote in Jeremiah, penning the prophets words? Obviously, all of God's Words don't make it into the Bible. What about the book of the Lord's remembrance mentioned in Malachi 3:16? Daniel also confirmed that many books would be opened at the time of the end, so maybe the Bible is not complete yet. Daniel 7:10 & 9:2 and Rev 20:12 clearly state that books will be opened at the end times. Are these just books in Heaven only? Whoa, y'all, please don't call me a heretic, I'm just quoting the Bible scriptures and asking questions, that's all. Hey, the king of Israel destroyed the first book that Baruch wrote penning the words of Jeremiah. Do you think that there are people today that still do not like certain things about the Bible, such as the supernatural stuff? Just asking. If you could hear from God, then you could ask Him which books you should read, whether they are in the Bible or not. If you can't hear from God, then that would not preclude you from walking in gifts of miracles by faith. Some people are gifted in other areas. First you have to "desire" those things, and "pray" and "believe" according to Mark 11:22-24. The argument Doug makes is not Biblical. You cannot change what the Bible says by making the supposition that every prophecy should be recorded as Bible canon. Yes God still speaks, the Bible says so. God never said that all His words would be recorded for all posterity, and the Bible clearly shows that they are not. God never told every prophet to put their words in a book. This doctrine obviously came from man. I suggest you go back and tell your cessationist teacher that he should try to make his experiences line up with the Bible, rather than trying to make the Bible line up with his experiences. Please also tell him that he is not an elder according to James 5:14-15, and therefore he should not be trying to teach you according to James 3:1-2. I suggest you learn according to 1 John 2:27. I would counsel you to really study the Bible for yourself, and don't believe man's teachings, especially when they have no signs to back their words per Mark 16:15-18, or even a SCRIPTURE to support their unbelief and long boring sermons. Paul did not tell what he saw in the third Heaven (2 Cor 12). Neither did Paul share things with the Hebrews in chapter 5:11-12 or the Corinthians in 1 Cor 3:1-5 because of their immaturity. Please don't be offended at what I'm saying. I took the time to give you a fairly thorough answer, because God still speaks, and He want to speak to you. God bless you, everybody.

@karljesusstein

8 жыл бұрын

+Daniel Malloy Right, prophecy should definitely NOT contradict scripture. However, cessationism is a direct contradiction of clear scripture. Cessationism believes in the sufficiency of scripture, rightfully, but generally does not accept any prophecy, but the Bible says we should prophesy, or desire spiritual gifts such as to prophesy. Cessationists say we should believe in cessationism, which the Bible does not teach. Cessationism contradicts itself. God bless you, brother.

@karljesusstein

8 жыл бұрын

+Daniel Malloy 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. The rhetorical answer to verse 29 is: "No, but obviously, some are (prophets, or workers of miracles, etc)". I agree that you can prophesy, and not hold the office of a prophet. However, there are still people today that do hold that office, as well as that of an apostle, evangelist, pastor & teacher. I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that the five-fold ministry does not exist any more, . . or that two (apostles and prophets) of the five fold do not exist any more? Either way, you are contradicting scripture. You stated above that prophecy should not contradict scripture, but yet you seem to be contradicting scripture. Can you explain yourself? If a prophet cannot contradict scripture, than how much more should a non-prophet not be able to contradict scripture? Please explain yourself better. I do not understand. Thanks. Bless you.

@karljesusstein

8 жыл бұрын

+Daniel Malloy OK, Daniel. Thanks for your answer, brother, and for clearing my confusion. Be blessed!

@elishofar1

6 жыл бұрын

I believe in sola scriptura and the gifts of the Spirit are in scripture.

@robertanthonyross

5 жыл бұрын

two good books to your points are 1. the question of the Canon. 2. the heresy of orthodoxy both by Michael J Kruger

#ReformedAndCharismatic

What is the Acts 29 group Driscoll is part of?

@joshuatheo1419

4 жыл бұрын

They're not part of a denomination

God works in the present, by faith. We don't need labels to embrace that. Test all things.

@CanonPress

6 жыл бұрын

But Paul uses labels (e.g., "Judaizers"). So did Jesus ("Pharisees" referred to people with a specific set of beliefs).

@poppyozark

4 жыл бұрын

Those labels are in the negative.

The "abuse does not negate the use"...yep, catchy.

I think the first question is how to not add to the Bible while utilizing a gift from god?... That would be a rhetorical throwaway? Where I'm from... You speak in tongues and someone translated and it's different than what the Bible says... The translator at least... is out of line... And we say, that wasn't God... Just like a prophet prophesying something that doesn't come to pass

Perhaps cessationism is more Biblical because many of the prophetic gifts were regulated, policed, and grown by national Israel. The Bible was written only by Jews (there's some debate about Luke). Since the destruction of the second temple, the Bible has become a read-only document. However, that does not mean that God never occasionally designs a person's circumstances, body, family history, words, psychology, natural phenomena, serendipidy from eternity past in apparently miraculous ways.

What I really wanted to hear was how he paid a company to fiddle the sales figures of his sex book in order to get it into the best-sellers list. Still, when an alleged 'man of god' resorts to underhand and dishonest practices, I suppose it's OK...

@jasonwolfe5814

10 жыл бұрын

It's okay, he only did it because God told him to.

@johncraske

9 жыл бұрын

***** What the f**k are you on about? Driscoll arranged for a company to fiddle the sales figures of his sex book. He used church funds to do it. Did Mars Hill know at the time? No, they didn't. When the church found out, they were not best pleased. Why do you think that they kicked his fat ass out the door for six weeks? Because they were delighted with the way their chief pastor was behaving? Actually, it's now 8 weeks and he has still to show his face. Jesus took only three days to come back from the dead. Allegedly. Looks like Driscoll is going to take a lot longer (if he makes it at all).

@johncraske

9 жыл бұрын

***** No problem. But I never said Driscoll had stolen the books. Indeed, nobody has accused him of that. What he did, amongst other things, was use church funds to make it appear that the public had bought far more copies of his book than were sold legitimately. Anyway, it's now academic, as I see he has resigned from Mars Hill.

@frankinthemorning3909

9 жыл бұрын

+MrsWebfoot For those who do not understand the Result Source scandal, here is a more accurate description of how Result Source works. Mars Hill had to pay $35,000 to Result Source to manage the best seller scam plus they had to pay for 11,000 books - 6,000 at retail, 5,000 at bulk. This is how you get to over $210,000 in tithes funding this scheme. The books were neither stolen nor bought for the church for later use. Bulk orders for the church are limited to about 56 copies in order to count for the NTBS list. Saying all 11,000 were simply purchased for use at Mars Hill is a false and misleading statement, however unintentional, and I assume it was. This was a carefully orchestrated scheme. Mark and Grace Driscoll met with their agents Yates & Yates and were informed of all of the details, and they agreed to this. Sutton Turner approved the contract and paid the invoice. It was the MHC members who were both deceived and forced to foot this nearly a quarter of a million dollar bill so that Mark could forever advertise himself as a NYTBA. He reaped the benefits booking gigs on Fox News and The View. He loved every minute of this. The reason people need to not forget this is because Mark is unfit for ministry for a number of very serious reasons and he refuses to seek restoration and is still taking the pulpit actively right now. From a commenter on Wartburg Watch (this is consistent with everything I have read in first hand accounts and review of contract) It was in response to someone asking if credit card fraud was involved in this scheme: "This is my understanding of how ResultSource works based on my review of the MH contract, internal memos and other articles. Perhaps others can add to this. Although some ResultSource employees might use credit cards in their own names, I believe the bulk of the “credit cards” used are simply pre-paid Master Cards, Visas and American Express cards. It acts the same as a gift card. You can purchase and load money on these anonymously. The other payment types used by RS are Amazon, Barnes & Noble, BAM!, Borders and similar retailers’ gift cards. The way it works is that the author - think Perry Noble or Mark Driscoll - are required to submit a minimum of 1,000 different names and addresses with no more than 350 per state to RS prior to the book’s launch date. Someone from the author’s camp has to enter the 1,000+ names and addresses PLUS fill out 6,000+ personalized gift order messages (the 240 character box you use when sending a gift) with all that then being transmitted to RS along with enough cash to purchase those books at or near retail (well over $100,000 depending on the price of your book). Then “magically” people all over the US receive up to 6 books in the mail from book retailers like Amazon, B&N, BAM! and Borders, etc as a “gift”. The person receiving the book neither desired nor ordered it and likely won’t even read it. The cost of those 6,000 books at or near retail is paid for by the church’s tithers and may end up in a goodwill box or trash bin, unread. This really happens. I know someone who received one of James Robison’s hard cover books in their mailbox with a gift card using their name and telling them James felt called by The Lord to give them this book. It was a little weird and invasive. The book was about Right Wing Christians taking back America. The remaining 5,000 are bulk orders. The author has to submit the names and addresses of 90 retailers/organizations for a drop shipment of books (average 56 books per address). Pastors tend to comply by shipping bulk orders, for “free”, to other churches plus bible colleges or seminaries. Again, the author’s tithers pay for books that no one asked for. These 5,000 are purchased at a bulk discount. It’s a great way to try to indoctrinate students with the false doctrine taught by people who are in the act of cheating and deceiving when the students/congregants receive the books. Hurray for Christendom! Mars Hill had to foot the bill for all 11,000 books (which was approximately $200,000) PLUS pay ResultSource an additional $35,000 in fees for RS coordinating the purchases via on-line retailers (mostly) using their pre-paid debit and gift cards. It’s a nice chunk of change for only having to enter pre-typed data about 1,100 times. So while no credit card theft is involved there still is a bit of identity invasion in that someone’s personal name and address will be used to ship the unwanted, unsolicited books to. Hope this helped.

if it wasn't for a miracle on Jesus' part, i would have never left islam and experienced the spontaneous baptism of the Holy Spirit at my house when I was alone. I never read the bible before that so cessationism discredits many genuine testimonies

thats how I see it, but on the fence. without faith in christ their is no salvation, people from the east can't be saved by miracles or miraculous signs so if this is done by the holy spirit it would have to lead to the gospel and salvation, because jesus said a wicked generation seeks after signs and miracles. paul also said without the law their is no knowledge of sin, and without a preacher know one can here the "word" (matt 12:39,rom 3:20,rom 10:14) so what would be the need or purpose?

It sad listening to Mark talk with such conviction and apparent wisdom, yet to know what kind of person he is and how he has conducted himself over the years. The Lord definitely used him, but he took advantage of his position and did tremendous damage to the church.

Driscoll is confusing "general" revelation with "special" revelation. They are 2 completely different things. God only gave His direct/special revelation to His Apostles and Prophets to establish the Church. Today there are no Apostles or Prophets, therefore the Apostolic gift of "prophecy" is ceased. The Church is built on the once-only "foundation" of the Apostles and Prophets (Eph.2:20). The foundation is laid, there is no re-laying or adding to it. Today we only have the Scritpures.

Good video

Mark 16:15-18: And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. And signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well. "signs will follow to those believing"

@Mojo32

Жыл бұрын

Well, unfortunately those verses were not in the original manuscripts.

Backing driscoll became a bad take

@1969cmp

Жыл бұрын

....some things he wason point and on others he stuffed. On this subject, he's on point.

Very informative

It also says that there has to be someone there to interpret. How's that going to happen if someone just stands up? IF it's really from the Holy Spirit, it's not tethered to an ecstatic experience, but remains true and deliverable at any time. God gave his Word to the prophets and they were able to then GO to the people, including travel time, and then deliver the message verbatim. IF the message is from God it'll hold up until it's time to be delivered.

Too much Spirit, not enough Doctrine, you BLOW up. Too much Doctrine, not enough Spirit, you SLOW up. Doctrine and Spirit in the right balance, you GROW up.

The sending of the Holy Spirit and His gifts are extension of the Ladder that Jacob saw angels on coming down from heaven. The whole premise of the whole Bible is that after the fall there has been a division between God in his perfect, holy place and us in our much fallen world. The rest of the Bible is about God coming down to us to reach and rescue us. Jesus in John 16 made it clear that after His leaving we would not be at a loss because Holy Spirit would be there with us forever to help us until the fullness of the Kingdom arrives when Jesus returns. Holy Spirit is now where God comes down to each of our lives who are the Temple of God. Since Jesus came and left and sent Holy Spirit we have been living in an elevated condition in our connection with God. It's a huge learning curve. In the New Testament we are not to kill people who make mistakes. That's not the New Testament way. The New Testament way is to patiently instruct and demonstrate the correct way. The job of ministers today is to help the whole body grow up into God, who by the way operated in all of the gifts of Holy Spirit Himself. See Ephesians 4.

1 Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 9:15 I would have pointed him to the above passage and said that God doesn't give revelation that contradicts the Scriptures. A shame this conversation never actually happened and Mark lacked the accountability that might have resulted.

Doug Wilson is trying to see the range of theological views, that range in the church.

First of all the bible never mentions the word "revelatory" when it comes to gifts it is a man-made term. That's the problem, we have so many doctrines and teachings of some geniuses (same as Scribes and their friends) out there taking centre stage instead of people focusing on Christ. Second of all the WHOLE bible is revelatory there is nothing in the scripture that can ever be understood by the human mind so revelation does not mean that the gifts are there ti create a whole new version of the bible but rather they reveal what is Already in scripture and reveal what Christ has already done. However when someone stands up and says they have a "revelation" that is contrary to the Word and Character of God then that is their own heresy. Spiritual gifts are not there to create a new doctrine but rather reveal what is already there. Lastly, food for thought, if you were there in ancient times would you believe that Daniel saw great revelations of God, would you believe Ezekiel? Most cessationists wouldn't. I guarantee you that so the problem is not the gifts it is unbelief.

The last fruit of the Spirit is self control. When a person is filled with the Spirit they are even more in control of their speach, thinking, emotions words and temper. Now my next question is If a person does not know what they are saying how can that be self control? The answer (and any other answer is obsurd) the answer is that speaking words without knowing what you are saying is by definition out of control. That my friend is the opposite to the fruit of the Spirit.

@michaeljester6073

4 жыл бұрын

Wrong, that's a false definition, merely your own, just saying. If I were to speak in unknown languages and not be able to stop, that would probably be more along the lines of out of control. But if I feel an urge in myself, a groaning stirring deep within as I pray to God, and I began to speak in an unknown language, willingly yet not able to without the Spirit of course, that's not out of control, that is very much controlled.

This discussion rings loud of the dangers of Protestantism. Subjective experience and interpretation of scripture and gifts based on any individuals experience, always led to this confusion, 10,000 denominations etc. I pray they can find the church fathers

@a.krishna3924

3 жыл бұрын

isn't it a good thing genuine Christians are not united by denomination but the Spirit? I'd rather there be visible confusion, on the surface, because that means truth is being pursued, rather than everything is under one church, no one knows if they are being deceived or not. And in order for TRUE UNITY to rise, perhaps it needs to be in the backdrop of "denominations". I'm saying denominations is an imperfect after effect of the pursuit of truth. Those who find it are not united by a church, but by Spirit. In a way that's a much deeper unity. Long ago, the catholic church predicted that if every man from every status, background education, from the youngest child - oldest men get access to their own bible, there will be much confusion and heresy. They were right. But if that's what it takes for the TRUE UNITED PEOPLE to merge, despite and amidst the visible heresies that merged from this opportunity: SO BE IT. So be it. Its better that way. God knows who listens to His voice, and they are united. We think the church is sooo divided. Not in God's eyes. Man cannot and does not have the power to create unity. I mean look at Adam and Eve, God gave free will and man kind sinned, but God redeems through His son. Was the free will bad because it gave way to the birth of sin? No. Similarly, because its so necessary that Christians get access to their own bible, the unwanted "side effect" is denominations but it will not hinder the true church (the invisible church made from different denominations and countries) will have unshakable unity. What unites us? THE GOSPEL And look at these two men discussing, I don't see division, I see a healthy discussion. They are still UNITED IN SPIRIT. Where is the division? I don't see any

@goyonman9655

2 жыл бұрын

Why so you think they haven't fund the church fathers

@carlosrodas423

2 жыл бұрын

That idea that there are tens of thousands of denominations is a very flimsy argument presented by Roman Catholic apologists, ad nauseum. There aren't tens of thousands of versions of protestantism. What we have is the churches that uphold the historical tenants of the faith are surprisingly unified in those essentials, despite not being institutionally unified. Roman Catholicism is institutionally unified, but the members are all over the place when it comes to their beliefs and lifestyles. The same haphazard aspects of human belief and practice you find outside of Roman Catholicism you'll find within Roman Catholicism. The risk of Roman Catholicism, however, is to rely on tradition so much, that it turns Christianity into codified and formulaic praxis, yet hundreds of millions of people are baptized and receiving a ritual by RC priests, yet are growing up without any convictions towards the Gospel. The reality is, Christianity cannot be codified into a formula to be replicated and made effective by any institution, since it's the work of the Holy Spirit and faith comes by hearing of the Word of God. Roman Catholicism within historically Protestant countries is more "plausible" but is a whole world of a difference if you compare it to Catholicism as practiced in historically Catholic countries, where there has been centuries of a vacuum of the word of G-d, and a praxis heavily involved with true idolatry.

@vngelicath1580

2 жыл бұрын

The Church has always had mystics. The experience of the individual can benefit the collective group -- but there must be anchors, dogmatic, sacramental, ecclesiological, etc

Ah gee...God spoke to Mark Driscoll.

All false religions deny the supreme deity of Jesus.Acts2:38,8:16,10:48,19:5,22:16,

So if that is true then what about the other fruits? Is there more love? more peace? more joy? No of course not if the believer fails on one point he had failed on them all. The so-called gifts of the spirit if they are incorrectly experienced they do not lead to greater blessing. Its a fake christianity with no reality. Its a sham. a falsehood. Grow up put away childish things Be men. Says Paul in 1 Cor 14

@jamesjohnson-vj6uu

3 жыл бұрын

Satan will perform counterfeit miracles, in fact, he will appear as Christ Himself. This will be an overpowering delusion that will fool even the Elect themselves! This why Christ says if they say I am in the desert do not go. When Christ reappears that will be the end of human history on this earth. I believe new light will unfold until the the end of time. Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His Word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the Word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the Word. The way to tell if miracles are from God or counterfeits from the enemy is The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the Word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).

2 thessalonians 1:8 tribulation to those that trouble me the Apostle Paul in flaming fire taking vengeance on then that no not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ Acts chapter 2 verse 38 born of water and spirit I can't under stand why anyone would deny the Messiah name and water baptism bless the name Yahshua,Uribe michael rood mikvah

God said "I made the ear, can I not cause it to hear?"

I know Mark Driscoll is a brother in Christ. However, I can't stand his personally. He seems like a bully. Please pray for me on this one

@aaronc4724

4 жыл бұрын

@@joshmariscal6252 I know he was kicked out of his former Church Mars Hill. I hope God has humbled him. What do you know about him?

This guy is kind of confusing are you a charismatic or are you a Calvinist. You certainly don't understand new testament prophecy or even when prophets speak we see both in the new and old testament two kinds of prophecies we see the first kind where it's in the Lord spoke to Isaiah and Isaiah spoke with the Lord and said to him to the people. We see in the New Testament the same thing with John the Baptist he says he who follows me whose shoes I am not worthy to untie will come and baptize you in the Holy Spirit. Then you have like Saul king Saul where he when he was anointed king he went and prophesied with the prophets and we see in the New Testament the prophecy is for building up or edifying the church it is an adding to scripture.

Gilbert, you lack understanding my friend.

"Satan uses the scriptures..." ...but to his own ends. He doesn't use it to further the Kingdom of Christ - like I said. "How do you confirm what was spoken was from God?" ...by whether or not it furthers Christ's Kingdom - and after watching this video, I would say under the leadership of Christian authority and leadership. "This is exactly what the Bible warns about..." Where? Where does the Bible say to be careful of false teachings that inadvertently further God's Kingdom?

If a preacher does not preach Acts2:38 as the plan of salvation he is blind or plain ignorant or maybe he doesn't love her the Spirit of truth. Calvin was a murderer John Calvin was a accomplish in the murder burning at the stake the Apostle Michael Server is.

@lord171

10 жыл бұрын

The Apostles all died within 1st century... No one is not preaching that... Once saved you gain the Holy Spirit... I don't understand your point Sir. Have you even looked at anything within context? Don't forget that the French Burned or Beheaded the whole of the Reformed Calvinist people in France... Calvin did not murder any one. Seretus was under trial. Even if he Did murder he was still human and he still sinned... But he is still probably the greatest Biblically bassed theologian that lived...

@colebrumley4363

10 жыл бұрын

Chris Lord Barney Roberts is silly.

@GotWhatIWant1

10 жыл бұрын

Chris Lord And Calvin what a judge in a theocracy. If a judge put a man to death today for committing a crime would the same be said of today's judge as is said about Calvin? :)

I like pastor Driscoll but I can’t understand how he can be a Calvinist

@benjamincervantes2729

Жыл бұрын

Do you know what Wilson is?

Any Christian who does not hold the Word of God as THE final authority in all things is in error. No prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom etc that claims special dispensation outside the Word is simply wrong.

@duncescotus2342

3 жыл бұрын

Brother Andrew, please try and follow this thought which just came to me. Cessationism, as a belief, must also be based on a kind of Dispensationalism, which is to say God closed one system of dealing with man at one time and place in history for a new one. As a doctrine, it comes from the belief that the canonical New Testament, once compiled and promulgated, there was an end to the Apostolic age and the signs and wonders that were performed then stopped, in favor of the written word, which then became sufficient for all aspects of the Christian life. While I affirm the sufficiency and inerrancy of the Scripture, I cannot affirm Cessationism. My own experience in the Pentecostal churches proved to me that the gifts mentioned by Paul in 1st Corinthians 12 are absolutely available to us, that there is some sort of "baptism" or experience of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit, and that for the MOST PART the fruit of these practices is edifying and good. Why there seems to be such great abuses is a valid question, very valid. It is up to theologians and wise people in the body of Christ to discuss these things, expose the false, and 'hold fast to that which is good." To this end, I recommend the young men of Remnant Radio, here on KZread I would encourage you and anyone to pray and think on these things. Ask if the Holy Spirit desires to do something new in your life. Ask if there's something you can do to bridge the divide in the Church, so that we can "move onward to maturity" as in says in Hebrews. Please say a prayer for me, and will say a prayer for you, for God to reveal the truth, in Christ, in more of its fulness.

@MaccaBased

3 жыл бұрын

@@duncescotus2342 I have just read my previous comment, which was very clumsily constructed. I am a Continuatuionist, and the pastor of a Pentecostal church. The point I was trying to make is that the Word stands alone as our authoritative text. Any and every revelation, or prophecy, or other utterance credited to the Holy Spirit must pass muster in terms of scriptural integrity. One of the accusations cessationist friends level at Charismatic or Pentecostal churches is that a word of prophecy is held in the same regard as God's Word. That is to say, we will build a new theology or adjust doctrine based on the prophecy if we have to. For most of us, that definitely is not the case. I subscribe to The Remnant Radio, and to Mike Winger (worth a look if you're not familiar with him) and a variety of others similar to Remnant. Have a blessed day, brother! And yes, I will remember you as we regularly pray for the body of Christ!

@1969cmp

Жыл бұрын

I think 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 make for an excellent explanation of how we are to handle this issue in our age. The opening and closing verse make for what I call 'book ends' in opening and closing a subject. In this case, the gifts. Many cessationist will try and wiggle out of gifts using chapter 13 but 12 and 14 puts it nicely into context. We need to love, in truth and The Truth. And the gifts are part and parcel to His people if they (we) should so desire to pursue those gifts and should He so want to equip a person for a particular gift and task.

"Exegetically you have to do origami. * ? Please just answer the question and stop emerging us. Please infirm us with more of a sober countenance.

Sobering improv from light bearing brethren.

@democratpro

3 жыл бұрын

I've been pretty good this year so I'd like a mclaren and a duckpond. They might not fit in your sleigh, but you're magic.

God seems to speak to a lot of self-satisfied, ego-maniacal, bibliolaters! The Bible is used by people like Doug Wilson and Mark Driscoll to say essentially what they want it to say- within certain parameters, of course. They forget that the Bible is itself a history of the re-reading of texts. There is an internal dialogue within the bible which is rarely mentioned by those in the Reformation tradition.

They're supposed to be some bad things about calvinists... But I still haven't figured out what they are 🤣🥰... If one of these guys is a cessationist or not... Probably if you have to put a name on it, there's a problem.. But there is ALWAYS a problem with limiting God... By dictating what you think God will or will not do according to your limited understanding... And what it looks like a cessationist is, if someone who quit working for God!! Sorry 😢

@jockwross

Жыл бұрын

Ultimately the biggest problem with Calvinists is that they have no assurance of salvation. That mans that they have missed the Gospel

@jimhughes1070

Жыл бұрын

@@jockwross I've been checking them boys out... But I don't think that's a correct statement... God forgives sins in Jesus's name, in virtually every place that uses his name... FYI..I'm not a calvinist... Not going to join any of the Little daughters of the Harlot riding the beast!🥰🙏🤳... But I need to learn ...all the time... If you have some info to clarify that my brother 👍 thanks 🙏🤳