Would you have these remains disinterred again for modern analysis, or do you think we should leave them be? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling

@lfgifu296

9 ай бұрын

Well… yes. In general, I am very much a fan of using modern science and technology to solve historical mysteries (such as the looks and ages of some people), so I would

@sherrygadberryturner9527

9 ай бұрын

Absolutely! If they are the Little King and the Duke, the world needs to know.

@LaLayla99

9 ай бұрын

I think they should be examined. Here's hoping King Charles grants permission!

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

No, I'm sorry. I missed it.

@donnicholas7552

9 ай бұрын

I think the bones should be examined. I don't think any DNA evidence will be found though.

This isn't just a historical mystery, it's a cold case murder of children. In circumstances like this, it's reasonable to study the bones to find out how they died, and if they are who they are. If the bones don't belong to the princes, then it'd still be a disturbing find

@zephyrbear

9 ай бұрын

It's also said that these bones are not all human and may be much older than the 15th century in which the princes lived. They may even have lived and died before the Tower was constructed and preserved in the mud around the Thames from the iron age onwards. Carbon-dating of all the bones would be very interesting. To have concealed those bones a substantial depth under that staircase would not have been achieved in one night and some accounts or even rumours of such extensive works would have survived.

@nbenefiel

9 ай бұрын

We have no evidence of murder and we are unlikely to get any from bones.

@julesleg

9 ай бұрын

​@@zephyrbear They weren't found in the actual Tower, (White Tower), the first building on site. But I understand your point.

@DesertRat.45

9 ай бұрын

Its a royal thing.

@calliew311

9 ай бұрын

​@@zephyrbearI thought they were found in purple cloth, reserved for royalty. ???

The university of Leicester should request a new examination.They were very succesfull in finding the bones of Richard III. They only need the Kings consent.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I wonder what the Richard III society would make of an investigation (just thinking about it as they were so instrumental in finding RIII)? If the bones were the boys and they died at the ages they were in 1483, it would really put a dent in their assertions that Richard was a great guy who did them no harm.

@pinstripesuitandheels

9 ай бұрын

​@@HistoryCalling I'd want to know anyway. I wouldn't be able to bear it to not know the truth about a man I admired or was otherwise interested in.

@jonnylumberjack6223

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling honestly, I'd say, "tough"! Facts should be allowed to stand, regardless of any outside bias.

@nancyM1313

9 ай бұрын

​@@HistoryCalling 👌🏼

@Suuusan28

9 ай бұрын

It was Philippa Langley and the Looking for Richard Project who found Richard. No one in the University of Leicester believed that Richard could be found. @@HistoryCalling

The severe tooth decay is also an argument for them being royalty- sugar was very expensive in the 15th century and enjoyed in excess by the royal court.

@mmhthree

9 ай бұрын

That makes me wonder, because England didn't see real bad tooth decay until Elizabeth 1st reign. From what I have read, when they find a buried body they can tell if it's pre-1600's by the fact that the teeth would be almost perfect, straight and no decay. These bones may be from late 1500's to 1600's and given a burial by Charles II makes me wonder even more. Carbon dating the bones would be great, as well as the DNA testing. Ya, getting sugar was hard to accomplish until the American colonies were established, and they brought back the sugar cane. Best wishes from Texas!!

@joeelliott2157

9 ай бұрын

An excellent point. No peasant had all his teeth lose before becoming an adult. Of course, anyone buried in the Tower of London was likely raised as a Noble and might eat enough sugar to lose their teeth at an early age. I don't know who how in birth one would have to be to enjoy this luxury of losing all of one's teeth before adulthood, but perhaps it didn't require royal birth.

@WillBlindYouWithLight

9 ай бұрын

Not really. It only takes 20 minutes after you eat or drink for your mouth to begin making bacteria that not only decay your teeth, but also produce bad breath.

@Sarafimm2

9 ай бұрын

Starvation, malnourishment or physical abuse could also have been a factor in tooth loss. The fact the children were seen "less and less" as time went on and never left their rooms could have been a sure sign that those watching over the Princes were abusing them. And Richard or Henry, wanting the crown, could have looked the other way just as long as the Princes never left the tower. There is also the typical grave robbing for souvenirs that was rampant when it came to anyone of significant importance. Disinter them. They and, if possible, their cause of death should be identified. If they're not the Princes, that means people can start looking elsewhere. If they are, they should have a proper burial and placed next to or with their parents.

@seleyav.7101

8 ай бұрын

Please look at the footages of Richard III. (when he was found under the parking lot). He has nearly all of his teeth and not a single one is decayed.

Those poor children deserve to be remember by the closest thing we can give them to justice. As a mother myself, I think Elizabeth Woodville would want, if she were alive, to pursue the investigation in every way possible so that her children are not merely remembered as skeletal remains found in a trash heap. Those bones, whoever they are, deserve to be laid to rest with dignity and respect. What a travesty that two children should be murdered!

@storfrassin

8 ай бұрын

Yes they deserve a real funeral and theyr name on a stone

@paintedpilgrim

5 ай бұрын

They are remembered, they are buried in what is considered the most noble and to some 'holy' place in the UK- Westminster Abbey after their discovery However, there are possibilities these aren't Woodville's children, she was buried with two unidentified coffins of remains in St Georges Chapel, Windsor during excavations and renewals of a heating system, it was thought these remains were George and Mary her two other children, but their remains were located elsewhere in St Georges. Either way to have both sets of remains identified would take the approval of Charles III, during the life of Queen Elizabeth II she refused to allow it, it is thought Charles may hold different ideas.

@nbenefiel

19 күн бұрын

The bones are not those of the princes. Modern forensic anthropologists determined that one of the skeletons was female.

I do believe a DNA test should be conducted, regardless of the possible outcome. It would put it all to rest - once and for all. I wonder what the Princes themselves would want? To be identified.

@suecrane3987

9 ай бұрын

Agreed. I don't understand the hesitancy to test the bones or the precedence argument. The mystique of the unknown should not trump the possibility that current technology could provide some answers, even if it's only partial information.

@jenniferpearce1052

8 ай бұрын

@@suecrane3987 Burial and permanent rest also have religious meaning. It's disturbing a grave (which clearly has been done a few times here.) and many people are opposed for those reasons

@Bethaniji

8 ай бұрын

@@jenniferpearce1052 Religions are cultish in their limited beliefs: these boys are surely no longer connected to their human bones (although their soul memories may indeed be connected to their murder). Disturbing a grave can be done with respect and for a purpose (some even say that JFK's grave does not contain his body)...the remains of these little children's bones can be respectfully, even ceremoniously, removed for DNA testing to solve one of history's cold-case mysteries.

@marysinclair2468

8 ай бұрын

And to give them the royal burial they deserved, too.

@christynorman7288

7 ай бұрын

​@@suecrane3987well said. By not acquiescing to tests it smacks of a cover up to me. The Queen was obdurate in her refusal the privy council should have over ridden their preferences. They are predominantly German so what's the secret? Peace ☮️ out

It would give some justice and perhaps a kind of peace to the Princes if we could identify their remains and determine what happened to them. Refusing to investigate a double murder of children--even one as old as this--by turning our backs to this crime is an abdication of our responsibility to our fellow human beings.

@ffotograffydd

9 ай бұрын

We don’t actually know if the children who remains were found were murdered.

@perniciouspete4986

9 ай бұрын

​​​​@@ffotograffydd And we didn't know Richard III was deformed until we had irrefutable proof, despite all the indications that he was and the Richardians swearing that he wasn't. Yes, the boys were murdered, and, if you think about it straight on, I have faith you can see all the indications that they were.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

​@@ffotograffydd...... Yes that is true they could have died by some accident.

@ffotograffydd

9 ай бұрын

@@lindatimmons3675 Or illness, there were a lot of contagious diseases around at the time.

@edithengel2284

9 ай бұрын

They could possibly have been children who belonged to someone who worked in the Tower precincts, who might have died of disease or accident.

As a funeral director, I am usually completely horrified by disturbing the proper resting places of the dead but, in this case I think that testing is warranted. It would solve at least the mystery of whether these bones are the Princes' remains. Given the alleged condition of the remains, cause of death is extremely unlikely to be determined. The "stain" on the skull of one of the remains is almost certainly not blood and even if it was, the presence of this would say nothing to cause of death. Thank you for such an unbiased video on this subject!

@Tawadeb

9 ай бұрын

Yes i dont like how archeologists dig up graves and keep the bones in a box. Its not respectful

@TheCandiceWang

9 ай бұрын

Thank you for this. I think that is where Queen ER2 was coming from

@kck9742

8 ай бұрын

I think that, when it comes to a murder, it's totally justified. I would be totally okay with being exhumed if I'd been the victim of a crime, to identify my remains and/or find out who did it. It's not like I'm actually going to be bothered by it, I'll be dead.

Even if the bones don't belong to the princes, there's still an interesting story to pursue about who's bones they are and how they ended up where they were found.

@tattycakes2k2

7 ай бұрын

Exactly this; how many children of that age were present in the tower at that time, what were they doing there, and why would they be buried under some stairs instead of a proper burial?

I think they need write the final chapter on this historical crime. Even if theses bones belong to another child, they suffered a similar fate and also deserve to have their story completed so they can rest in peace.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I agree. We'll never have all the answers, but a big piece of the puzzle could still be added into this story, just as a big piece was added to Richard's story when his own bones were found.

@edithengel2284

9 ай бұрын

Although we don't really know for sure if the owners of the bones, whoever they were, died as a result of criminal activity.

@sarahjaneexton151

9 ай бұрын

I remember how exciting it was when Richard the 3rds bones were discovered in that carpark and as every development came the scientists were right there, ready, for the next step, to deliver the answers until completion. This should apply again, it’s the right think to do

In view of the fact that Richard III was located and given a reburiel and funeral, it's only right to perform these tests to come as close as possible to positive identification of the princes.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, now that we have Richard's DNA and could likely prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the bones were his nephews (assuming DNA could be collected) I wish they would be checked as well.

@Susan-gr2xd

9 ай бұрын

Absolutely!

@joeelliott2157

9 ай бұрын

Great point. Why should the likely murderer gets to be checked for identity, but not the possible, likely probable, victims.

I think it's worth testing because I feel every murder victim deserves to have their bones placed with their names and their stories told. These poor kids never had a chance.

@astroterf.

9 ай бұрын

Nobody knows if it's them let alone whether they were murdered

@widowkeeper4739

9 ай бұрын

​@@astroterf. That's why I feel it's important to test the bones and try to find out more.

Even if they aren’t the princes, they were still people and were still someone’s children. They deserve care and respect and to have their story told no matter who they are.

Yes , they were both princes. A royal Duke remains a prince. The late Queen refused permission for DNA testing. That was before the rediscovery of the remains of Richard III and his DNA identification. Her reasoning was that it would require additional exhumations for identification. However, Richard would be their paternal uncle so the male DNA would establish their identity beyond reasonable doubt without need for further exhumations.

@ARedMagicMarker

9 ай бұрын

It's like his corpse was found due to still-active forces beyond the grave knowing that his old sack of bones unceremoniously found in a parking lot no less, was the key that was needed to solve the mystery to their deaths in modern times so they can finally move on. Now all that's left is for the royal family, the state, or alive-folk to stop being such blow-hards about the matter. Even if they are the princes, it's not like it will threaten the present royal family's right to the throne anyhow. Far too long ago, and goodness knows how many foul deaths, cover-ups, imposters, shoulda-woulda-couldas, and changelings have crossed the royal family tree for over a thousands years that we have no idea about. XD

@phineasthegreat2402

9 ай бұрын

The only problem with that is that somewhere someone passed off a lover’s child as an heir, it’s considered from contemporary reports, a book in a library that states that the Duke of York was no where near his wife, Cecily when the conception happened. That conception was of Edward IV. Meaning if Edward was actually an archer’s son, the nuclear DNA of the missing royals will not match the male line. I can’t remember why only mitochondrial DNA could identify Richard III, but it was. I definitely agree that the bones need testing to determine who they really are. I’m glad the current king is open to the study.

@tomhenry897

9 ай бұрын

Lot of bastrads around

@jamesbowman6925

9 ай бұрын

@@tomhenry897 Yes, especially amongst the royals, where marriages were political alliances and the husband and wife often had no interest in one another.

@Trebor74

9 ай бұрын

Only if they WERE his blood relatives. The eldest was most probably not a blood relative as was conceived while his father was away fighting in a war.

This is wonderful! Prince Phillip donated his DNA to confirm that his relatives, the Romanov's, were actually who they were. It was a successful test and Tsar Nicholas, Tsarina Alexandra and their five children have now been given their proper burial. Yeah for DNA if used properly! I hope King Charles III will do as his father did to help solve this very old mystery of his relatives. God bless our beloved belated Queen Elizabeth II on the anniversary of her death.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, Prince Phillip was incredibly helpful in that case, though if you see my video on the Romanovs, I'm afraid they haven't all been buried yet, which I think is very sad.

@donnamcnicol5247

9 ай бұрын

I believe King Charles III already has made his DNA tested. I've been working on my family tree for quite some time and one of the tools I use is DNA. I've known for most of this time that I'm related to the royal family, like so many out there. I use My True Ancestry to confirm my DNA with famous relatives and I not only have a match to Prince Phillip but to King Charles III and Prince William. If you never heard of My True Ancestry, it is a storage company of sorts, for DNA collected over time from archeology to samples found in museums of the world. They also collect DNA from famous people that are still living. I believe in their DNA results, I've found many relatives that I didn't know I was related to and, as I said before, it has confirmed some of my tree. If they didn't have the King's DNA I don't believe they would claim it.

@melissamcconnell5002

9 ай бұрын

History Calling, I stand corrected! Thank you for reminding me about Alexis and Anastasia and their separate original burial pit and they were not with the rest of the family. I am sorry the Russian Orthodox Church is holding off on Sainthood all these years...it's hard to understand why. Perhaps because Nicholas made many mistakes as a Tsar commander this only made this worse. I struggle with the Pretender Maria Vladimirnova and hope the real relative will be brought forth! Thank you again for reminding me of the correct history!🤗

@cl5470

9 ай бұрын

Charles likely knows he isn't related to Edward IV's sons. I bet William will do so eventually since he has actual English royal blood through his mother. Just my opinion, but there is something fishy about the Hanovarian/Saxe-Coburg-Gotha/ Windsor line.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

​@@cl5470..... These children still need to be identified and properly buried. They apparently have some connection to the royals or they would not have been imprisoned in the tower. I'd just like them to b identified at least. 😢

I would love to see the King and the Prince identified and laid to rest again. It doesn't really matter which King had them killed. They lived in the Middle Ages and would not have been the first (or last) relatives murdered for the sake of a crown. It was a brutal time to be attached to royalty.

@MegaMesozoic

9 ай бұрын

Very true, it was a brutal time. King Henry VII had the Earl of Warwick beheaded for no other reason than he was the son of the Duke of Clarence, brother to Edward IV. Warwick's sister, Margaret Countess of Salisbury, was later executed by Henry VIII. In fact, both Henrys did their utmost to wipe out the Plantagenets.

@f379986

9 ай бұрын

Killing everyone in the way certainly works.

In response to your question about wormian bones, when you are a child much of your skeleton is made out of cartilage and is gradually replaced with actual bone as you grow. Everyone is fairly familiar with the idea that newborn babies have "soft spots" on their skulls (fontanels) this little added flexibility helps a human baby get its fairly huge head through the comparatively small birth canal. As the child grows those cartilaginous soft spots are replaced by bony material and those fontanels are now called sutures because it's a place where two distinct bones have been "sewn" together. The lambdoidal suture is between the occipital bone and the two parietal bones. Wormian bones are small irregular bones which sometimes occur in the lambdoidal suture.

@twohorsesswift6739

5 ай бұрын

Thank you for the succinct and easy to understand response to the question of what 'wormian' bones are, it explains why the evidence of these was noted.

I started watching the video after i initially commented so I'll make this as a separate one. I may not be in the medical field but i have a decent amount of experience with bones as part of my anthropology major. Babies skulls are not fully fused when they are born that then harden and fuse over time. Sutures are the connection points between the different parts of the skull (just like how sutures made of thread join different parts of flesh). These sutures can sometimes form small pieces of bones within them, called Wormiam bones. Sometimes these have genetic factors that are shared among relatives so family members can often have the same ones in the same places. I don't know the names of all the sutures, but that's the gist of it.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated :-)

@peachsangria8704

9 ай бұрын

I stand by this comment as an anatomy student myself. Sutures of the skull: Coronal, Sagittal, Spenofrontal, Spenoparietal, Lamboid, Parietomastoid, Squamous, Spenosquamous, Occipitomastoid. If I were examining the bones myself I'd pay close attention to the last 5 in particular.

@Gancanna

9 ай бұрын

IIRC, the 'soft spot' in an infant's skull is called the fontanelle.

@kimclarke5018

9 ай бұрын

I’m a nurse dual major science undergraduates. None of this matters as they need to find viable DNA that could be replicated using state of the art technology. Further many unidentified persons have been identified in the last 5 years using this technology but again they were not some over 600 year old remains. I just add this as a cautionary note.

@Megan-bt9pm

9 ай бұрын

@@kimclarke5018 I wouldn't say it doesn't matter, just that it is but one piece of potential evidence that can help. Though DNA would be highly definitive, it's not like nothing else matters either. Any little bit of evidence can help! Especially if there isn't viable DNA that can be analyzed.

No matter how many times I hear this tale, it still saddens me. 😢 I think KC should have the remains tested and, perhaps,solve this mystery. Since KC seems to be a curious man I’m hoping it’s done within my lifetime. 👍

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

I know what you mean.

@MissMarquise

9 ай бұрын

There is still a cover up to this day; KC is part of the cover up as was QE2

@kessiawright1710

9 ай бұрын

Many people have issues with "disturbing" grave sites. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was to keep information hidden. The bones had been moved around a lot and if they think they are family members, they don't feel that DNA will tell them anything different than they already know. They are not obligated to do so. Many feel the the King was not blood related to his father either.

@harridan.

8 ай бұрын

i would like to know QE2's real reason for disallowing DNA testing

@cathyblackhall3448

5 ай бұрын

​@harridan.She was extremely religious and head of the church of England.

The little guys, whomever they are, should not be left anonymous. It’s a disservice to them.

Many years ago, I read a book written by Josephine Tey about the two young princes. This mystery has since then been quite intriguing to me.

@lauraferreyra8489

9 ай бұрын

So did I!

@user-in2et7by3v

8 ай бұрын

One of my favorite Josephine Tey’s books @@lauraferreyra8489

@southernhushpuppy

8 ай бұрын

It's called The Daughter of Time

@lauraferreyra8489

8 ай бұрын

@@southernhushpuppy So it is. I still have a copy of the book.

@tracymcardle7395

7 ай бұрын

yes I read that book it's very good

If I was told that the remains of a member of my family were mixed in with a lot of trash I would insist on exhumation, an examination to separate my ancestor from the trash, and a respectful reburial to be the right thing to do! If my family member's remains were examined scientifically to learn more about them there would be no harm in that.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I don't think there's much of the way of trash in the urn now, if that helps.

@hannytierlierblaauw192

4 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCallingBut everything that is left is contaminated 😢

I'd love to see such an examination made, particularly because it's a well-known mystery. And if they are identified, they can be properly be laid to rest. If they're identified as the Princes, then they can be given a proper royal burial that they certainly wouldn't have been given previously. If they're not the Princes, then the search to find their true identity can be made. I know that there's a lot to be said about respecting the dead to prevent others from agreeing to such an investigation, but it will lead to proper respect for the dead in this case. Edit: forgot about the Charles 2 commemoration, but while these bones did get some kind of ceremony overseen by the King, I think it would still be good to confirm. Because if they're not, we can search for the real Princes and Charles 3 can recommemorate.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, it's one of those rare cases when I'd support a reinvestigation, which I usually don't because I don't think digging people up for things like facial reconstructions is necessary. In this case though, I'd like to be able to exonerate the likes of Henry VII and put to rest any doubts about Perkin Warbeck being the genuine article.

@WickedFelina

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Just for the sake of giving them their proper names and titles, as far as the public is concerned (end the speculation) is good enough for me.

@ffotograffydd

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Why would identifying the remains exonerate Henry VII? It would just mean the boys died in the Tower at some point. We still wouldn’t know how they died or who killed them (assuming they were murdered). As for Perkin Warbeck, we know where he’s buried and the church still exists so we could DNA test his remains too. Wouldn’t it be interesting if it turned out he was who he claimed to be after all?! Then there’s the unidentified remains of two children buried with Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville. I’d definitely like to know who they are.

@quintuscrinis8032

9 ай бұрын

​@ffotograffydd because there are some who believe the princes were still alive when Henry VII became king and thus killed by him to avoid any contests to his legitimacy. If we could prove that the bones were the prince's, then we can also work out their ages and so know when they died (thus who was the king at the time)

@ffotograffydd

9 ай бұрын

@@quintuscrinis8032 You wouldn’t be able to prove their age definitively, it would be an approximation. So it wouldn’t clear Henry VII either way. The most we can hope for is to prove or disprove that the bones belong to the boys. If not there are other remains that could be tested. The ones of the two children buried with Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville could also be the two boys. If those also turn out not to be the boys then they could also test the remains of Perkin Warbeck as we know where he was buried. I find it strange that people seem to be taking sides on this, so many are adamant that Richard III had them murdered, and others equally adamant that it was Henry VII or his mother. The truth is we don’t know, and may never know.

U have a beautiful voice. So easy to listen to as I'm working. Keep up the good work, me lady!

As a biochemist & genetic genealogist, I say, 'Yes, please!'. I'd love it if DNA could solve this mystery for us.

The boys are gone. Their bones will be treated with respect no matter whose they are. We should find out one way or another. It’s true history.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I agree that I think a modern examination would be very respectful, just as was done with Richard III.

Hello HC and fellow history lovers. So glad you decided to revisit the "Princes in the urn" situation. If I remember correctly, you once asked if anyone thought there was ever a good reason to disinter royal remains for examination and regardless of their feelings on disinterment in general, just about everyone agreed the princes were the exception to the rule. Honestly, I feel that if King Charles is pressed on the situation that he will relent and allow the contents of the urn to be re-examined and tested. As you stated, KCIII is a very intellectually and scientifically curious person so it is likely he would have a natural inclination to do so. He also has much more of a "people pleaser" personality that would make him considerably more malleable on the subject if he felt the public overwhelmingly supported it. Personally, I've wanted to the contents of the urn re-examined for quite some time. Before Richard was found, I was under the impression that they could test any DNA from the urn against Anne (de)Mowbray's DNA for a familial match and I was in favor of that too. I feel that those poor little Princes deserve some small amount of justice after all these centuries so finding out as much as we can about how they died or if that is even them would go a long way towards that end. If the bones are found to not be theirs, we should know that too so we can continue to search for answers on their fate. Separate thought, but are you currently taking suggestions for video topics and if so, is it better to put it on Patreon or here?? My suggestion fits into the "Death, Murder and Corpses" category (always a channel favorite, right???) and also has to do with disinterment so seems right up your alley as well (teeheehee). Okay, getting on with it... I'm hoping that you might consider a video on Prince Alemayehu, the young Ethiopian Prince buried at Windsor. I think people need to know more about his full story because it is one of the saddest things I've ever heard and it made me re-think some of my positions on royal disinterment in the UK. In this situation, I feel the moral thing to do would be to risk the damage to the surrounding coffins to return him to his homeland and if whatever is left of Henry VIII's bloated corpse disintegrates into oblivion in the process, then so be it. It was so wrong that he was ever here to begin with and we need to make it right, regardless. I'm curious to find out how you and others feel about his fate and how the request to return his remains have been handled. Sorry this was so long, I got carried away. LOL. Happy weekend everyone!!!!

@caitlinallen8400

9 ай бұрын

I had a good laugh at what you said about "Henry VIII's bloated corpse". He was such a despicable person I doubt anyone cares too much about his remains lol

@donnahays1534

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I would love it if we can solve this mystery.

I have been LIVING for this! Ugh, I just don’t know what to think. Is it realistic that they would have been buried so close to where they lost their lives?! Or, maybe those responsible wanted to get rid of the remains asap, without drawing too much attention. I do love how you mentioned that we still test Mummies, Bog Bodies etc.. In the very grand scheme of things, what harm could realistically come from testing the remains. If it’s the case that it’s not the boys, the Urn could be seen as something similar to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. A gentle memorial to two lost, young children. Thank you, as always, HC! Always proud to be a Patron to such a great channel!

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thanks Patrick. I'd never thought of comparing the urn to the unknown soldier's tomb, but I like that idea :-)

The priest who spoke against the examination of the bones in Westminster offers just the sort of 'reasoning' that could be expected from a priest... Fact is fact, truth is truth, it isn't biased one way or another, it just is. Its being voided speaks only of moral cowardice.

The bones in the Abbey should definitely be studied to determine if they are the princes. We might not be able to tell how or when they died, but at least we would settle part of the question.

I can't tell you how many docs, videos, and written accounts of the boys that I've seen over the years. You are literally the first historian (I've seen) to point out that they weren't actually 2 Princes. And that is what keeps me coming back. Love this channel!

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thank you. Yes, it's a common misconception and I have to admit it's now so prevalent that I simply HAVE to refer to them as such in titles and thumbnails on videos otherwise people wouldn't know who I was talking about and the algorithm wouldn't know who to push the video to, but it irritates me too to refer to a King and a Prince (who was generally known as the Duke of York during his lifetime) as two Princes. Still, what can you do? It is what it is.

@dianochka5432

9 ай бұрын

I am very confused by this argument. Edward was Prince of Wales before he was King (and Duke of of Cornwall too, of course) and Richard was Duke of York. But both were sons of a king and therefore princes. A Royal Dukedom and a Principality are titles over and above their basic status, which remains as de-facto princes. The only thing that would disqualify them from this description would be the illegitimacy claimed for them by Richard III.

@susanmorgan8833

9 ай бұрын

You just refer to the current royals. The sons of Charles were Prince William and Prince Henry from birth. Prince Henry (known more popularly as Prince Harry) is still Prince Henry, though he was also granted the title Duke of Sussex. Prince William is now P of W, and he had previously been titled Duke of Cambridge. He throughout was still 'Prince William'. It appears they are given a position at the top of the peerage, in addition to 'prince', as they become older and carry out royal duties.

@capt.obvious2460

9 ай бұрын

I feel you. I get irritated whenever I hear "Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived". As you already know, Henry never divorced any of his wives, he did, however, have them annulled. @@HistoryCalling

@capt.obvious2460

9 ай бұрын

When King Edward IV died, his eldest male child became King. Therefore, the boys weren't two Princes in the tower, they were a King and a Prince/Duke in the tower. I hope that made sense, feel free to let me know if it didn't. Have a blessed day!@@dianochka5432

To begin with, I have just subscribed, not only because this period of history fascinates me but primarily because this delightful narrator has a sense of humour that parallels mine! So refreshing. I was a Canadian high school English teacher for 35 years and I taught Shakespeare’s Richard III and Josephine Tey’s The Daughter of Time during the same semester. Tey’s logical investigation of Richard not being the heinous villain we have come to accept largely through Big Bill, the Bard’s presentation shows a really interesting conclusion that he was not necessarily a murderous evil narsty person. Tey puts forward the idea on this issue in particular that it was not in Richard’s interests to kill his nephews but far more in Henry VII’s to rid himself of any Plantagenet issue who may have had a claim to his (let’s face it) usurped crown. It is commonly known that most histories written after the fact in the pst were the histories written by the victors of the war and therefore just a tadly bit prejudiced. At any rate, by all means test the DNA of Richard III (and isn’t it the absolute coolest that they actually found his remains? Come on!) and the bones of the children to solve a second mystery. They found Richard. Let’s find the boys! Scarily, however, should they not be the princes, who are they? And why did they keep finding young children buried in the tower anyway? Not just a little bit creepy! Anyhoo, I am glad I found this channel and the fun narrator!

@christinecowley3120

6 ай бұрын

Excellent comment! Glad you mentioned Josephine Tey‘s “Daughter of time” I have read it, and I have it on audio.

@maeve4686

4 ай бұрын

History has always been written by the Victor's. Just ask the Romans, Spanish, Grmans, English & others bent on owning the world.

If possible they should be identified as were the Romanovs. They deserve a name and proper burial with their names. I tend to think they are the 'princes', but there are few alternative suggestions. Great video!

Wormian bones was pronounced correctly in the video. Similar shaped wormian (which are essentially “extra” skull bones typically in the cranial sutures) can be seen in familial lines and also in the case of certain genetic syndromes, but I’m unaware of a specific gene identified as the culprit for the bones themselves.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thanks Parker and I'm glad I got it right as I find some of the stuff I have to pronounce sometimes to be quite the tongue twister for me :-)

@vikkirobinson4131

9 ай бұрын

I wonder if the skull of Richard had this , since that has been identified and well studied?

@charliekezza

9 ай бұрын

Thankyou

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

​@@vikkirobinson4131..... Good question.

@jumitchell21

9 ай бұрын

I read an article on some of the causes of wormian bones, and it said that brittle bone or Down syndrome can be a cause of this condition. It makes me wonder if Richard, who was a great supporter of his brother during his life, only to then turn on his brother's children shortly after Edward's death. Is it possible the boys had one of these conditions and Richard feared that the boy's weakness might lead to another drawn-out war, like what happened with Henry the 6th?

HS, you are an incredible narrator. Your voice is so calm. I'd love to hear you reading audiobooks. Love your videos ❤

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thank you very much :-)

I believe that confirming the identities is the right thing to do. While usually referred to as the "princes" in the tower, one of them was actually the rightful king. He deserves the same respect and treatment as any monarch, and imo, probably more than RIII. I've chimed in previously with my opinion on RIII's responsibility in his nephews' untimely deaths.

You have given us an extremely thorough pro and con scenario for testing these bones. I have no qualms about the bones being used. The reasons given for not testing are a bit flimsy to me, but I’m no expert, neither do I have a dog in this race. Curiosity is not a sin, just be prepared for the possible answers. Great video HC, thank you for your diligence.

This is a historic mystery I would love to see solved. Those two little boys deserve to be identified, if at all possible, like all of us would like to be, I think. I agree with you regarding the remains in the urn. I had the exact same thought - if they are not the Princes, return them to their container to an appropriate place with a briefly-worded placard. As far as who ordered them to "disappear," I think it's as simple as who would have the most to gain by them being gone, or at least who believed in their own mind that it was in their own "best interest" for the boys to disappear (most likely Richard III). One thing I always think about is that, if they weren't a threat to him, he could have removed them from the tower and brought them into the protection of his own court. Them being in the Tower for their own protection sounds like a lot of "who shot John" to me. Whatever the details, their young lives ending so soon is very sad. Thank you for this video - another fascinating topic!!

@richardcaves3601

9 ай бұрын

Solved long ago - as far back as the Stuarts. Shakespeare's myth is just that - a myth, a great play, but not History

@kck9742

8 ай бұрын

@@richardcaves3601 His characterization of Richard might have been off, but Richard had the most to lose, and I have no doubt he ordered the killing of his nephews. He HAD to... do you really think that he could let either of them become king after he had their uncle executed? Richard knew he would have been toast. Besides, Thomas More SAID that the son of one of the men who actually did the deed TOLD him his father did it. More was a devout Catholic, no Tudor bootlicker, and had nothing to gain by lying -- and his eternal soul to lose, in a time when people took salvation VERY seriously.

I'd love to see a proper forensic examination of the bones in the urn. Even if there's not enough DNA for an analysis, the general condition of the bones might suggest e.g., whether or not these were healthy children. An analysis of their diet, if possible, might also provide a clue as to whether they were royal children or just a couple of random paupers. If it turned out the bones didn't belong to the two princes (or even were unlikely to be them), that hardly exonerates Richard III--it's always possible the kids were taken from the Tower on his order, killed elsewhere, and their bodies disposed of in some anonymous place. (Honestly, it makes no sense to me at all to bury a couple of bodies in a busy building where anyone could witness the interment, and where the decomposing corpses might very well be stinking the place up for a few months). I really hope King Charles approves of this--the U. of Leicester team certainly showed they know how to conduct forensic research on famous remains in a respectful manner. If the bones turn out to be the two princes, I would hope they'd be given a better burial and not just dumped back into the urn. And if the bones are not the princes, it would be great to have them buried in a way that acknowledges their humanity--e.g., "remains of two anonymous 13th century children, believed to have died from disease and malnutrition," or something along those lines. Great work as always, HC!

What a painful dilemma from start ‘til finish. Well done presentation. Thanks.

Definitely do as much DNA studies as can be done. HRM Charles III is more forward thinking than others preceding him. Since Richard III has been successfully identified.

@kck9742

8 ай бұрын

I am not a fan of Charles, but I agree with this decision.

hello history calling! thank you for your content, i always love hearing your voice :) you’re very good at telling these (hi)stories! hope you have a lovely day x

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thank you so much. Have a lovely weekend, wherever you are :-)

I should not be this excited about this topic today!!! But ever since I first heard this story in 6th grade I have had a huge fascination with the story and all it’s players… Your videos are SO informative yet SO entertaining and enjoyable!! Thanks SO much!!!

As always, a thoughtful piece of work from you.

Loved this. I love how you presented it, how you worked with ALL the evidence, discussed the different things we might or might not find out (and got a chuckle out of "work with me i don't have pictures of fish or chickens). Part of me thinks "let them rest", but only a small part. I think we need to find out what we can. They have already been through heck & back and I think we need to know as much as we can. I also agree with you.... if we find out they are NOT "The Princes", put them back & update the plaque. Some poor children ultimately got a Royal & famous resting place. Whoever they were, they will have deserved that.

Ive always been so curious about this case since my grandmother is a decendent of jaquetta of luxemburg ive always been intrigued and honored to have such an amazing lineage with such amazing and strong willed women

Just discovered this channel,and really enjoyed the video! Fabulous content and a really lovely voice! Subscribed! Great work. 🤙

One of the biggest mysteries in history. What a wonderful video you've made. You raise so many valid and important points but at the end of the day, history needs to know who these bones belong to. So much misinformation and speculation, this would put all the stories to rest, once and for all. Congratulations on a wonderful video on such a contentious subject. ❤

I think in this case a nodern analysis should be done, if only to provide some more facts to the well-known mystery around the two boys and the bones found in the White Tower. I actually wouldn't mind at all if the remains were placed back into the urn afterwards, maybe with a plaque detailing the results. After all, the bones are at least around 400 years old by now and fall solidly outside the scope of "recent history" or "recent past".

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Same here. I don't think there would be any problem with leaving them interred in the Abbey. There are plenty of people buried there whose names are now lost to history.

@ametrinemoon

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling The only thing with running some analysis which destroys the sample is knowing that there is enough bone material to begin with. As a trained chemist myself, we could also use the none destructive method of a MRI or a Cat/CT scan(like in the hospital, no kitties are harmed). As there can be in some instances different elements can be picked up in these studies, and the bones are not destroyed. Love your work HC as per normal.

I'm a Texan who would love to see an examination of the bones to see if they are the princes. So much speculation and guess work could be taken care of to a large degree. It's not idle curiousity but a desire to know the truth or as much truth as can be learned. I love history and like to see it done right. Here's a chance to advance our knowledge a little.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

I'm a Texan as well. My 5th great grandmother is Elizabeth Warburton and she is where my moms side can be traced to Edward III, but I've always been interested in finding out who these boys are. It's just the moral thing to do. Everytime I see the ashes if a veteran buried because no one was alive to claim the remains it saddens me like this case. Even tho this is over 400 yrs old it still would be nice to know more about them. They were someone's children......

I think these bones are a very different case from the royal remains that we very clearly know who they are/were. It would be a tiny piece of justice for the two young boys. Very few other dead royals we have so many questions about. The other royal remains are virtually always unquestionably exactly who they are believed to, and their cause of death is very well documented and unquestioned. If these bones are able to identified as the nephews of Richard III, it would give validity to the story of them being ill-treated by their uncle, whether it could be proved that he murdered them or not. I cannot imagine why the boys would not have been given a proper Christian burial if they had died under honorable circumstances. That alone is enough to make me think that Richard III had them murdered and their bodies hidden. The bones deserve to be examined again to see if they can be identified.

Love your channel. Thank you for every video you make.

To answer the question if they are the 2 princes, it would be great to finally know if it is them by using DNA samples. It is like finding Richard the III and maybe they can have a proper burial like him. Have a great weekend

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, fingers crossed King Charles is open to this. Have a lovely weekend too.

I think it is really important to have them examined because even if they are not the princes they are still children who died and no one knows anything about them. Also i am not sure about the relocation theory/statements as if Richard put so much energy into claiming illegitimacy why would he risk exposure by having the moved to "more royal ground". I don't think him as the likely murderer would be too concerned about the prestige of the burial place.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, that is certainly an interesting point. It seems odd to be prepared to kill them, but be worried about where they're buried.

Thankyou for your wonderful post. Thoroughly enjoyed and your interest and gentle manner bring it alive, not everyone can do that. I do hope they do examine the bones, as the boys deserve to be properly respected and for the interest of understanding the family lineage. Thankyou also for your breakdown of how the likes, dislikes, subscribe etc support your providing these posts. Wishing you well. 🌻

Greetings from Perth, West Australia 😀 came across your video by accident, love your work, liked and subscribed. Love your dry humour, definitely coming back for more😃 ❤

I expect it would reveal a lot but getting Royal Permissions from King Chales 3 & (I think I'm right) the Lord Privy Seal - or similar - is another matter altogether. Watching later HC. Thanks for your continued input. 😊

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thanks Chris. Yes, we'll have to see if permission is forthcoming. I hope it is though.

I 100% think testing them is beneficial and crucial. We are trying to learn about history and piece together fuzzy history, to me it is worth it for instances like the White Tower bones.

Nice presentation and analysis. I just love this narrator's voice!

I absolutely would like to see the remains examined. I loved your video. It was so well thought out and explored so many possibilities. Those poor children and their mother. Can’t imagine not having any control of your children’s wellbeing. I’m leaning 75% that its the princes.

I won't ever stop studying the fate of these two young men until it is finally solved. Thank you so much for the update of the research being done. It is an unsolved mystery that is close to my heart. I hope one day they do discover what happened to them.

@susanmorgan8833

9 ай бұрын

I agree. There has been a great deal of sympathy through the years for these two young boys, their lives cut short through violence. It would be so lovely to finally know it is their remains respectfully held near others of their royal family, and they are not lying forgotten in some dark unmarked corner.

@richardcaves3601

9 ай бұрын

It was solved by the Stuart historians and several others long ago. It's only Tudorfiles who keep it going

@Suuusan28

9 ай бұрын

"these two young boys, their lives cut short through violence" ?? How do you know? Do you posses evidence that something like that happened?

@richardcaves3601

9 ай бұрын

@@Suuusan28 they don't. There's some historical documentation that shows they may have been smuggled out of the Tower apartments they were comfortably living in, after Bosworth and before Henry got to London. Then they were split up and lodged with different lower gentry families. There are etchings of young men who look like the portraits of the boys in some churches in both Sussex and Leicestershire. Conclusion: the myth of the murders is just that - a myth

@Suuusan28

9 ай бұрын

I agree. Besides, Perkin Warbeck WAS Richard, Duke of York. @@richardcaves3601

Interesting video. I’ve long supported a further examination of the bones in the urn. Here’s hoping the new king will grant permission. The urn and its contents will not lose their value whatever the outcome.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I agree. Even if DNA could be collected and it's not the Princes, I see no reason to move the bones from the Abbey. I would rather we admitted we don't know who they are than continue to have them interred under false names.

Congratulations on 200k !

Really interesting and so well written and delivered 👏👏👏

Leicester University did not discover the bones of Richard !

I think it should be done, if memory serves, this is one of the most famous unsolved mysteries/crimes in history. We have the means to solve it, so we should.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

I agree absolutely

I wasn't expecting the ducks....or the caption! But what a great video. Really interesting and as always, thorough!

I have always been interested in this subject. Maybe one day soon we will know. Great video!

It would be nice to have dna done on the bones to find out..As for the cloth that was found does make sense..They might has stripped them of royal Clothing but had them wrapped for easier carrying the bodies in blankets..It was such a vicious time back then..its just so sad..whoever the bones are they where ment to be hidden..It wasn't just a mishap thay those bones got there..

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, that's a good point. Children's bones don't typically end up in an unmarked grave under a wall if they had a peaceful, natural end, no matter who they were.

Hi there, love your videos! I am a forensic anthropologist (I have commented on some of your earlier videos) so, I will offer you some comments here. First, thank you for another wonderfully interesting and well done video! Second, you did pronounce "wormian" correctly, these are extra bones (usually found in the cranial sutures, particularly the lambdoid) which have the appearance of a worm (thus the name). They can be used to correlate with some ancestries but really can't help determine familial relationship much beyond that. Also, regarding the stature and age estimates of the remains...this can be difficult. Granted, tooth eruption can be a very reliable indicator of age (particularly in children) but it is affected by nutrition, and overall health so it can be misleading. Epiphyseal fusion (the fusion of the bones) does follow predictable age ranges but again, these can vary widely. Stature is another story; we can (loosely) determine stature, in the 21st century, by putting the long bones into a formula based on sex and ancestry, but that can only give us an estimate at best. The accuracy goes down considerably if those estimates are made with any bones other than the femur, tibia or (to a lesser degree) the humerus, or if they are used with children. So I would consider the estimates made in the 1930's to be unreliable at best. As to the evidence of "blood" on the bones caused by the smothering, I think your supposition is spot on.

@celticlass8573

9 ай бұрын

I find all anthropology to be fascinating, but being a forensic anthropologist must be even more so!

excellent doc well researched. i like your balanced approach

I believe a respectful examination, and reburial, of the remains is appropriate and would add to our understanding of the past and our shared history. We actively searched for Richard the third and, as you mentioned, his remains were treated with respect and dignity. It seems quite likely that these are the remains of the little princes and I don't see how not knowing is any more respectful than giving them the benefit of possible identification. As far as the late Queen's objection of setting precedent, any monarch would have the right of refusal so I don't see that as very legitimate. I hope the current King will consent and give us more knowledge, which is surely a good thing. Thank you for a thoughtful and clear analysis of this situation.

I find this so sad and fascinating. I'd love to know one way or the other if we can identify the remains. My great aunt died taking all the family secrets with her (much like the priest who knew the whereabouts). Before she died by aunt begged her for details as we knew there were some nefarious stories and she replied that skeletons should be left in the closet. 😵 SO now we'll never know and will wish we did (which is why I'm keen to solve this mystery). How many other 9 & 11 year olds died in the tower????

As a member of the Richard lll Society, I would be interested in knowing the identity of these bones. After examination the bones should be respectfully reinterred in a suitable place.

@ninavongunten122

4 ай бұрын

They should have a proper funeral memorial service!

Excellent researched video …👏👏

You have such a lovely accent. It really enhances your interesting videos.

Settle the issue for all time. Then let the children rest in peace.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, it would be nice to get some answers if possible, especially as the chances of the bones being useful decreases with every passing year that they are left to degrade further.

@onemercilessming1342

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling 👍

While I understand and kind of agree with the reasoning behind Elizabeth II’s refusal to have the remains tested, I think this is a special case. It concerns the disappearance and probable murder of two children, so it’s not merely for the sake curiosity, it’s to identify victims of a crime.

I think they should be tested to settle the questions that we have. Thanks for the great video!!

I'm new to your content but I've been binging it lately - you cover so many fascinating people and stories! Have you done any videos on the Hapsburgs yet?

I think we should have the bones re-examined for the following reasons: 1) It would be nice to give these two,whoever they are, their identity back. In my opinion your identity is a basic human rite that these boys are being robbed of currently 2) We’d have a clearer picture of this bit of history by knowing what took place after the royals were locked in the tower. Is Richard III a cruel vengeful uncle or was he really intending to have the coronation as promised? Personally I feel like this situation reeks of I’ll intention and self-righteousness but at the moment we have no conclusive proof (though we do have one heck of a motive). 3) We’d know, at least little bit, about where and how these royals were killed. (I’m not a forensic scientist so correct me if I’m wrong) but don’t bones have the potential to absorb chemicals and substances they are lying in which may reveal when/how/where these royals were killed and potentially the place/places they were buried. 4) This reason is a little bit less scientific and a little bit more sentimental. I know she’s long gone but if I were a mother I feel like I would want to know what happened to my children. Right now their poor mother has only speculations and no concrete proof. I feel like maybe she would rest easier if she had that closure.

@robinteske1717

9 ай бұрын

Regarding your first point: If these are not the princes, these remains still won't have an identity beyond the sexes, approximate ages, and approximate century of when they lived. Sadly, very little new information will be obtained, but we might be able to support or refute the theory that we've assumed.

@elizabethlamport760

9 ай бұрын

@@robinteske1717 this is a good point as well. I suppose we’ll see what decisions are made.

@beth7935

9 ай бұрын

I totally agree with your last point. My Mum's cousin was murdered & they never found her body, & it was before I was born, but I saw what it did to her parents. I SO hoped they'd find her while her mother was alive (her father had died when I was 12), but unfortunately they didn't, & still no luck. She has 2 beautiful memorials though, which is nice.

@elizabethlamport760

9 ай бұрын

@@beth7935I’m so sorry to hear your family had to suffer such a loss. That’s heartbreaking!

I think further study of the bones should take place. If DNA can be extracted this will surely tell us if they are/aren't of the Plantagenet family and then these children can truly rest in peace because there will be no need to touch them again.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I agree, though of course I worry that the bones are now beyond DNA testing.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

​@@HistoryCalling..... Yes they may very well be. 😢

@ninavongunten122

4 ай бұрын

Some of my maternal grandfather's distant ancestors via the Holland & Parsons families were Plantagenets.

“The boons found at the tar” gets me every time. One of my favorite accents. I’m Canadian , so I can’t throw stones. 😊

@HistoryCalling

27 күн бұрын

Yeah, I change the accent sometimes, but honestly it's just too annoying to try to keep that up. My version of tower rhymes with car and I figure people will just get used to it. I'm sure you get grief sometimes for the way you say 'about', but personally I think the Canadian accent is lovely (though for the most part, I must admit I can't distinguish it from American - please don't hate me!) :-)

@adamus

27 күн бұрын

@@HistoryCalling it’s perfect!

Super video; thank you.

👏👏👏 I'm trying to type this while Penny is hovering over the keyboard; there's always some distraction, so a stray finger in the shot is forgivable 😉. Seriously, the excellent shots with the GoPro really make this video an immersive experience. You have a good eye, HC. Lena and I have to make it back to London. As I commented on Patreon, I'd like some scientific confirmation on whether or not the bones are those of the doomed princes. Another tragedy of many. Thanks for another great trip! 🙏🏼

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, do try to come to London. I was there recently and got lots more photos and footage. It's a place where it's basically impossible to be bored :-)

@chrisbanks6659

9 ай бұрын

Of course, IF you do decide to hit London, please let me know and I will try and arrange with you at some point to see if we could possibly meet up? Will let you have my contact details one way or the other if that's agreeable? I am only a couple of hours from there in Old Wessex - near Stonehenge. ⚔

@stephencarrillo5905

9 ай бұрын

@@chrisbanks6659 Stonehenge?! Awesome! Apologies for the delayed reply. Of course! I owe you a pint! 🍺

@chrisbanks6659

9 ай бұрын

@@stephencarrillo5905 🤣

Has anyone ever considered comparing Richard and Edwards DNA (we know where his remains are)to say whether or not the old rumours about Edward are true or not. That way, if the remains of the boys are ever found, a more accurate identification could be made.

You're about to hit 200k! 🎉🎉

So, I’ll probably have an unpopular opinion. Other than solving a mystery just to solve a mystery, what would be the point of disturbing these centuries old remains yet again? There is no one left to prosecute, it won’t change the royal succession as neither boy had had progeny and would cost a lot of taxpayer money. The case of identifying the Romanovs was different as it was more relatively recent and it did resolve the lingering stories surrounding Anastasia’s survival. If these aren’t the remains of the princes, it wouldn’t make sense to remove them permanently from the urn. It would be disrespectful to whomever they are and doesn’t advance finding the real princes anyway. I vote for leaving well enough alone at this late stage.

I would love to see you do a video on the execution of Margaret Pole. I always picture an elderly lady running in a full sprint with a clumsy axe man running around behind her. She was quite the lady!

@jaynekranc8607

9 ай бұрын

What happened to her grandson? Could his bones be at the tower?

@anneharrington7951

9 ай бұрын

I also would like to hear more about Margaret Pole.

@lindatimmons3675

9 ай бұрын

I admired her.

@heathermason9311

9 ай бұрын

@@lindatimmons3675 I do as well. She was one of the few ladies who owned land and she built quite the fortune for herself. She definitely was a strong, intelligent woman, who didn’t deserve her end.

@katakauchi

9 ай бұрын

@@jaynekranc8607 All we know is he was imprisoned in the Tower, after his Grandmothers botched execution he vanished . Having Plantagenet blood was pretty much a death sentence under Henry 8th . He gets a free pass for his many atrocities by historians .

Wormian bones are bones that sometimes form as the cranial sutures of a child's skull close during the maturation process. As we grow through our childhood and adolescence, the cranial sutures close up and harden into normal bone. In some people, this can result in the formation of extra bones, know as Wormian, or Supernumerary bones. This can happen if the person in question has some sort of genetic predisposition to bone malformation, like osteogenesis imperfecta.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Thanks Keith :-)

@keiththorpe9571

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling You're welcome. I once had a girlfriend who was a pediatric surgeon, and I remembered what she had once told me about childhood disorders like those that result in that kind of bone formation. And you pronounced "Wormian" just fine, buddy. 😀

@justKorppi

9 ай бұрын

"A genetic predisposition to bone malformation" like scoliosis? 🤔

I love your work!

i could listen to her voice all day

I think there’s a very good chance these are indeed the bones of the missing princes, and I do think testing is warranted to put the mystery to rest if possible. Worst case scenario, the tests are all inconclusive, then that, at least, is a sort of closure (we will never know) and the bones can be reinterred and left in peace. I really hope the King sees it this way too and I hope a request is made to do this testing sooner rather than later.

This is one of my favourite basically solved historical mysteries (anyone who thinks Richard didn’t do it is frankly a little delusional) and I hope these boys can some day find peace

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I'm afraid I think he did it too, though it wins me no popularity with the RIII fans who get very annoyed with me sometimes. I feel I've presented a good case though (in my other video on the boys' fate) as to why I believe that and why I don't support their reading of the evidence.

@emilybarclay8831

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling I just can’t understand how anyone can think the man who imprisoned the boys, faked their illegitimacy, stole their crown, didn’t investigate their disappearance and who had complete custody and control over them is somehow innocent. Literally no one had the means, motive, and resources to do it. Killing the boys was a DISADVANTAGE to Margret and Henry if anything, because it fully legitimised Richard’s rule, and they had no reason to kill two kids who weren’t even on the throne. It’s only with hindsight of Henry’s extremely unlikely victory over Richard that or even makes slight sense, and as awesome as she was, I don’t think Margret was clairvoyant lol

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

I agree, but some people just don't want to believe it (which I concede, is absolutely their right).

@emilybarclay8831

9 ай бұрын

@@HistoryCalling some people prefer fanfiction over history i suppose

@redemptivepete

9 ай бұрын

I have a lot of sympathy with Richard 3rd but after much study over more years than I care to remember I conclude he probably did kill them and if it was someone else he disinherited them and put them in harms way! Not sure that these bones are the boys and the 1933 examination left a lot to be desired.

Very interesting, informative and pleasant to listen to.

I really like your voice. It's so calming. :)

I have to commend you on your eagerness to remind us of how reliable or unreliable the sources available actually are. It's the reason I subscribed: I like knowing what is more modern folklore than verified facts. Both are interesting in their own way, but folktales are more of a group psychology and study on what people want to believe. It's very important to not forget what we *factually* know about historical events that inspired our myths and legends. It's so very easy to forget, as these myths and legends are, by their very nature, more appealing to the collective minds. Otherwise they wouldn't have spread in the first place.We want to believe we have everything figured out and know the answers. But you approach history like a scientist: You give us the facts, such as what bodies have been *actually* been found and from where. The condition of those remains, and what it can and *can not* tell us. What old records we *do* still have and what have been lost or might not have existed in the first place. Exactly *who* was the person who wrote things down, and how likely it was if they actually knew what they were talking about, and what biases they might've had. It's very much appreciated. As are the clear sources you leave in the description, and that there are links to your other videos in the description and not just in the video itself.

@HistoryCalling

9 ай бұрын

THANK YOU SO MUCH SIENISOTA FOR SO KINDLY DONATING TO THE CHANNEL and for your lovely comment. Yes, I'm a real stickler for sources but I love your insight into how understanding myths and legends can be useful for looking at group psychology. I hadn't really thought about it in that way, but it's an interesting angle to look at as I do wonder sometimes why entire groups of people believe something even when there is very good evidence that something else is true (I'm just thinking about history here and excluding religion from that thought, as I think that's a whole other ballgame). Thank you so much for giving me something to ponder :-)

Would love to research! I would love to see a dna analysis of the pretender or any additional children found.

Hi HC that was a great video, I think it would be a good idea to do this then, if if is them that would lay to rest some of the questions. Although I don't think all would be answered.

Yes, I'd love to have the bones tested. Lovely programme, thank you.