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@1LEgGOdt

2 жыл бұрын

Here’s an idea, why don’t you take the Noctua’s AAS desk fan from this video and combine it with some of the past fans that won first place or just blew your mind with how well they preformed and see what kind of new numbers you get with cooling and air flow. Maybe even combine it with the Cheater? kzread.info/dash/bejne/hX2XzNSGnbvSc8Y.html

@AbuMaia01

2 жыл бұрын

Link to the filament that you mentioned?

@salimufari

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder if the noise normalized level in the Radiator config would have been different on the Cheater. IE if the radiator effected the tested noise level & if an adjustment in the RPM would have brought them together again while giving different results. Since the radiator would effect the noise output of the system with the resistance it provides.

@ZAC4TT4CK101

2 жыл бұрын

Link for PLA?

@chasedown26

2 жыл бұрын

Great idea do a test to see if it's actually the fan or the "accessories" that make the changes. Use the stock a12 and stock t30 with the exhaust and intake parts from the cheater. We will find out how necessary the accessories are vs the fan design!

I see a lot of people are still wondering what's happening with the Acceleron fan. Glad to say it's still going! It's just taking a long time. Those that are still waiting, thank you for your patience. Also, thank you again James for reaching out to me. Hope you all have a wonderful day c:

@MajorHardware

2 жыл бұрын

thats exciting

@dinosoarskill17

2 жыл бұрын

yep, production of things takes a long time.

@northwiebesick7136

2 жыл бұрын

Do let us all know what happens when you are able to release the information when it's all said and done, or better yet, send him a few fans to test, or perhaps, as I heard it's a computer manufacturer, maybe a whole system, like as a promotional piece, or a thank you or something, along with lots of information for him to do a video with

@Najolve

2 жыл бұрын

@@dinosoarskill17 I hear producing again can take a long time, like 9 months. Plus there's over a decade between cycles.

@dinosoarskill17

2 жыл бұрын

@@Najolve depends on what it is, how many parts, tolerances, materials, etc. castings are expensive as well.

Here's a big thanks to Nesto for being so generous with the designs!

@nestoNESTOnesto

2 жыл бұрын

You are welcome, mate :-) I promise Cheater 2 will have better quieter fan :-D

@officialteamroc

2 жыл бұрын

@@nestoNESTOnesto oh man I can wait 🙌

@timgoodliffe

2 жыл бұрын

@@nestoNESTOnesto server fan time

I would love to see what happens if you just add the velocity stacks to a stock A12x25 and Phantex Fan. Would it improve the performance of a standard unmodified fan?

@demonicdonut22

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! Give us the bolt ons!

@alistairmonro

2 жыл бұрын

Nice

@seishino

2 жыл бұрын

This was my question too, especially with the front part and the back part separately and together. Is it the shroud at the front concentrating suction? Is it the static fins at the back turning the rotational of the swirling wind from the fans back into straight rearward energy?

@yobgodababua1862

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that's what I was more interested in as well. How well does that fan - as itself - do when sandwiched in between the input and output stages? This just showed how the motors compare...

@t_c5266

2 жыл бұрын

yes, it would because it smooths out the flow going into the fan. and im guessing the flow straightener makes the air leave the radiator sooner too, instead of twisting around and stagnating behind it.

I want to see the stock fan installed inside the cheater barrel. Because at this point you're comparing a very non optimised fan in a flow controlled channel vs an optimised fan with no intake or exhaust aerodynamics. The question now is what's the optimum intake and exhaust design for the stock fan.

@wobblysauce

2 жыл бұрын

This... just swap the fan body not touching the blades.

@mostlysane77

2 жыл бұрын

Would be great to see this. Comparing the fan performances. How much better does the ducting make a professional fan.

@Lvl90Shadowknight

2 жыл бұрын

I was about to comment this, although 3 days too late.

@vitsalava1251

2 жыл бұрын

@@wobblysauce and put the intake cone in the middle somehow

@lemagreengreen

2 жыл бұрын

This... I can't understand why the blades are being changed out.

When fans turn, they aren’t just rotating through still air. They induce a flow ahead of the fan, at the fan disk, and behind the fan. At the fan disk, the air is moving roughly half the speed of the air that is behind the fan. The Cheater is probably designed for the blades to be at the max lift-to-drag ratio at each radial location, assuming the flow is unobstructed. The addition of the radiator probably added some backpressure that reduced the flow speed, causing the blades to be at a higher angle of attack and increasing drag. Edit: The commercial fan is probably designed with the backpressure of a radiator in mind.

@Dimondminer11

2 жыл бұрын

Quite smart sounding but after reading it yeah. That does indeed make sense

@maverickstclare3756

2 жыл бұрын

Just like European engines are designed to get max MPG at 56mph, which is what they are required to publish in advertisements

@luca6819

2 жыл бұрын

@@maverickstclare3756 fuel consumption and consequently emissions, are not calculated at constant speed

@glonkfpv

2 жыл бұрын

@@luca6819 source?

@cheyannei5983

2 жыл бұрын

I believe the thick stator being off of the struts is contributing significantly to turbulence and noise due to their close proximity.

What I really want to see is, the cheater's intake+exhaust with the blades of the next best one, to see if the cheater is good by design or by bruteforcing it.

@Morberis

2 жыл бұрын

YES. This is the big question. Is it the blade design or is it the intake or is it a combo? Without that this whole evaluation is pretty useless IMO.

I hope the acceleron fan production will happen, the fan deserves it!

@smartestmoronx19

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe we should reach out to the designer

@BarrelRoll7

2 жыл бұрын

It's still going! Just taking a while c:

8:20 That "Grams Remaining" window in the spool is a REALLY SMART design :D

@WAF74

2 жыл бұрын

EDIT: AreaDenial below is right. Sleepily Fatfingering a calculator is a fail. It's a good idea, but the gauge is wrong. The markings are equally spaced. The volume of the spool increases by pi*r^2, not just r. (e.g. A circle with r=1 has an area of 9.8ish. A circle with r=2 has an area of 19.7ish. r=3 has an area of 29.6ish. this isn't equal, linear growth)

@areadenial2343

2 жыл бұрын

@@WAF74 Your math is wrong, it proves the opposite of your point. The area of a circle with r=1 is 9.8, r=2 is 39.5, r=3 is 88.8. Your math showed linear growth instead of exponential growth. EDIT: Additionally, if you look closely at the markings, they aren't equally spaced. The distance between the two outer markings is slightly smaller than the distance between the two inner markings. This would be much more apparent if the spool was wound closer to the center of the circle.

@Debbiebabe69

Жыл бұрын

Surely 'metres remaining' would be better than 'grammes remaining'?

I think it’d be interesting to see how the stock blades perform with the cheater’s velocity stack & duct equipped

@velvetrosang4684

2 жыл бұрын

They won't work: the stack and duct require air flow. The stock blades generate static pressure more than it does air flow. If anything, the performance might drop.

@thisisabsolutelystup

2 жыл бұрын

@@velvetrosang4684 which is why it would be interesting to see it.

@velvetrosang4684

2 жыл бұрын

@@thisisabsolutelystup I agree, tbh.

@Crazyates11

2 жыл бұрын

Same! And I’d also be interested in the same for the a12x25. Can you throw a duct and vstack on it for better performance?

Nesto is a fricking legend. He even made version for non-metal hub fans. Can't wait to print out the fan so I can finaly cool down my "oven" Thanks Nesto :)

The lower effiency for the cheater is likely due to having less static pressure compared to the stock fan. The blades have large gaps, which at the lower speed and with a restriction, allow some air to bounce back and become turbulent around the fan disk. That's why the large 120 volt fans for servers or industrial cooking equipment always run at full speed; they are designed to move the air quickly and overcome the pressure with volume.

@ismaelyu5

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. It's the inlet vanes, they are at a fixed angle. They are more or less the reason for the higher efficiency but even more only at a specific airspeed. Since the resulting airspeed is different every test the effectiveness changes. It has to do with attack angle. That's why vanes in turbines are adjustable

The shape of the fan blades are more or less efficient at specific rpm. Look at ship/boat propellers; they have the pitch fixed to be most efficient at specific revs. Thanks for a great series, I really enjoy watching.

@Shad0wBoxxer

2 жыл бұрын

Heh you must work with boat props or know somone who does, i used to have a 3 blade prop for a 9.9 evinrude

@pops9049

2 жыл бұрын

@@Shad0wBoxxer I used to make props for work boats and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution Tamar and Trent boats.

@mrrooter601

2 жыл бұрын

variable pitch pc fans when?

@pops9049

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrrooter601 No idea. Have you seen the hardware inside a variable pitch prop?

If Thomas sees that, I would also be interested in how the Acceleron is doing

@BarrelRoll7

2 жыл бұрын

Doing fine, albeit slow, but still going c:

Idea for a future series of fan showdown: Find a commonly available standalone 12v motor that could be used for a fan. Then the only design constraints are 1) must implement that motor, 2) must fit in a 120x120x40(?) box, 3) must follow standard 120mm fan mounting. Would be cool to have totally diy fans that don't require buying and tearing up an already very nice fan.

We recommend printing the Green PLA at 195. The cheater fan looks awesome!

The best thing about you and your channel is your complete transparency. Its refreshing with todays garbage media.

Could you please do the T30 with thr factory fan blades and test it with the shrouds? I want to know if the shroud is providing the benefit, the fan itself is, or a combo of both.

@esoel

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah this would be very interesting!

@Shilorius

2 жыл бұрын

I agree!

@shellrockguy9761

2 жыл бұрын

Everyone better bow to this man. He joins 14 years ago

Good on you for getting that fan maker in touch with that manufacturer and not taking the credit. A deserved subscription here.

I really enjoy and appreciate the little edits like during the fan cutting haha. Little additions like that make it even more fun to watch. Great vids. Keep it up!

aerospace major here. make the funnel larger(longer) and outlets with a more dramatic change than what you have right now. The current design doesn't have enough "time" to accelerate to a higher velocity. a couple mins playing in cfd on whatever software you use to cad the fan inlets should give you better results. good luck!

**sees World of Warships ad, hears Jay yelling "I LIKE BOATS!"**

I'm printing the Cheater Fan!! Yes, happy about this!! Thanks Nesto and MH!!

One of my favorite shows on all of the Internet. Keep em coming please.

This is what a community is all about...not interested in monetary gains but the advancement of the group...thanks to you and all your time and hard work and to Nestos...

I think you pretty much nailed the explanation with the difference in static pressure. The fact that the efficiency of The Cheater seems to scale up at higher speeds is impressive. So, now I’m wondering what speed that thing needs to hit before the performance improvements level off? If you can find a 120 mm fan motor that can go as high as 10,000 rpm, that might be a fun test of it’s limits. I just did some looking around and you might be able to find a Delta fan that’s 120 mm and capable of 6,000 rpm. The reason I came back to edit this is that Noctua makes an NF-F12 Heavy Duty fan that goes up to 3,000 rpm. That seems like it might be able to retake the crown from the T30 as the best commercially available 120 mm fan. It comes in black and brown in the stick configuration, so that’s kinda sweet.

MAN, WHAT HAVE I MISSED!?!? I feel like I've only missed a couple episodes and now you have what looks to me like a full-on testing rig for fans on the bench that's so cool.

I think the answer to why the T30 beat the cheater only on the radiator at low RPM is because these kinds of fans (Gentle Typhoons and all the more recent iterations) are specifically optimised for static pressure and low noise/RPM. Like lots of guys in lab coats with fancy equipment spent a bunch of time making sure their fans would be good specifically in that application, while the cheater was built for a different application (which it excels at btw).

got me hooked on the fan showdown when i binged the first season , love the videos thanks for the content

i love this show, as it combines PC Hardware with 3d Printing over and over... i am working on some interesting 3d prints, too.. like an armor for mainboards, ATX I/O Hoods, Fan Shrouds and Air Tunnels and my highest piece of art will be a mostly printed modcase for custom watercooled PC Components. Even more interesting Projetct here 4 your Channel could be: finding a DIY formula for a Watercooling liquid, that allows to watch the movement (like Mayhems aurora or Primochill Vue) but without clogging!!

This has gotten way more serious sense season 2, I love it

I like the inclusion of graphs to show your data, it makes it much easier to visualize and compare at a glance. One recommendation if you continue to use them is to group the bars next to each other by category rather than by fan. E.g. NN unobstructed cheater goes next to NN unobstructed stock. This improves comparison ability between the two data points especially when the values are so close together as in the example I gave above.

Thanks to both you and Nesto for doing all of this modification and testing, but I simply wanted to see what would happen if you added the Cheater's ducts to the standard T30 ;). I did not intend to make you modify the blades to match the Cheater. I realize that the stock T30 blades aren't designed to be ducted in this way, but I remain curious about whether it helps.

Your production and content quality keeps going up. Nice job man!

I find myself laughing at these videos more and more. I literally watched the flush cutter part about 3 times.

@alberthenderdon3639

2 жыл бұрын

That hit marker was just fantastic

@esqueue

2 жыл бұрын

@@alberthenderdon3639 What got me was the silly sound effects.

@shellrockguy9761

2 жыл бұрын

Dam you joined 15 years ago. I’m 15. That’s scary sorta

I KNEW the post with the fan blades missing was intentional and not some kind of self-destructive fan design. Second note, I think next fan showdown should be low profile 140mm fans, since Noctua isnt giving that space any love right now.

The OG fan has a denser blade configuration which helps lower rpm pressures. Higher rpm get more benefit from a more open blade design. (this is also why a room blower fan has big blades but a prop-airplane has narrow blades.)

Cool test. I would like to see the results with the rear stator removed from the cheater. That should help performance with the radiator installed.

In a pinch, the newer versions of Fusion 360 have a decent STL converter. It'll often import the wrong size (no size reference value in STL format), so you'll have to adjust that. But it's passable, you'd have to do some mesh cleanup. I've used it a lot when needing to edit a Thingiverse file. I'd recommend importing a known size model (or quickly sketch one .. e.g. sketch the hub to the appropriate size) as well, so you can resize according to that reference and fit.

I think you are right on the money, the blades on the Cheater look like they are designed for CFM whereas the blades on the T30 are better suited for static pressure. Super keen to see your crazy 30 blade fan in the Cheater housing to see what it does, Another thing I would love to see is a comparison between a 3D printed and an SLA printed version of the same fan to see if there is any measurable difference. To further that you could also experiment with more exotic filaments like Carbon infused or wood grain PLA etc. Love the content and keep up the good work! An Aussie Fan. No pun intended. :)

I believe the flip flop of performance at higher rpm is from the number of fan blades. Some did a test on this for a 3D printed jet engine. Squeezing more air, requires more torque with more blade and more drag

Can we all just appreciate how awesome it is that we can 3d print an EDF and beat a fancy fan? With what's basically an rc airplane part? 🙃

Props for thinking of the licensing when you started this series.

I'll curious to see the result on same guide as cheater on the regular fan

The answer to the results is the different airspeed at the inlet. The vanes in the inlet change the angle of attack for the fan blades relative to the incoming air. Since they are static the effectiveness changes with different airspeed. And the airspeed is affected by the pressure the fan has to overcome.

I believe it is because of the green spacer between the radiator and the fan that makes some of the air to be forced back out where it sucks in creating a vacuum. Try the same run but without the spacer. To get the actual fan closer to the radiator.

i am proud of ur honesty and credit giving

You should add in a static pressure test. Something tells me that this is likely the major difference between the noise normalized vs max speed that is causing such a difference in CFM. Especially considering the air leak gaps between them is pretty different unless you are using gaskets for the cheater. This means that the cheater is optimized for CFM at a loss of static pressure while the base model is optimized with static pressure in mind for better use with radiators.

Try the standard fan with the ducts, but the stock blades. Curious how well it does with just the added shroud

For the noise-normalized results, static pressure is lost in the cheater due to the long exhaust section. If the cheater fan was right up against the radiator, (remove the exhaust section but leave the intake section), it would likely score better.

My assumption would be, Since the T30 has a higher amount of fins, it produces a higher noise pitch, but also a higher pressure wave rate. It shouldn't surprise anybody that this would cause a higher static pressure. Think of a glass filled with water that that is shaken slowly, it builds up bigger and slower moving waves, whereas the faster shaken glass, the waves are more erratic, but are everywhere. Hence we frequency of waves is corresponding to the amount of blades. So I would say, give the cheater one more overhaul and just give it one or two more fins. Even IF it destroys the beautiful low pitch I adore. FOR SCIENCE! I could look into the mathematics behind this, but I am sure that the experiment gives a faster and more precise output.

I think it would be cool to see a chart with airflow output vs. rpm vs. amp draw vs. static pressure vs. noise level for each fan in it's original configuration and then with each other blade setup. I think this is how we really would make an assessment on an electric fan's efficiency. If we were serious about making that assessment that is.

Dude, I'm no fan expert, but I sure feel like one since I started watching these. Great stuff :)

Love the little sound and visual effects 😂👌

In principle, airflow is proportional to rotational speed and static pressure is proportional to the square of the rotational speed. For example, doubling the rotational speed will double the airflow and quadruple the static pressure.

great review 👍 thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀

If you wanna geek out to the Max you could make a fan curve for each. You’ll see why the one fan has different low noise performance. When you drop the speed so much you have the head fan law to contend with ( heat decreases by the square of speed). So dropping speed so much really eats into the restricted cfm.

The thumbnail at 1:46 made me laugh much harder than I should have.

centrifugal, radial out, fans should be better than any normal straight pass-through fan

3:11 I lol'd so hard xD. I have used those cutters on wires and got'n hit so many times.

id love it if you would use this setup for the fan showdown it looks far more accurate than the current setup

@stamantheshaman

2 жыл бұрын

Yep! Upvoting for season 4! Plus with the radiator he can have long tubes and check temps on a CPU!

What cpu q2 volt fan has the highest cfm? I want to upgrade my fan for my ice chest cooler. Could I 3D print some fan blades and change the cfm or do I have to buy a fan with a stronger motor?

fans that builds static pressure will preform better having a velocity stack and fins to help remove the turbulence will also make a huge difference if you look at how underground mines ventilate they use the same concept

Very simple, tighter (both between blades and frame clearance) gives better pressure while broader blades give better airflow. The slightly higher result at max can be explained by the speculation that probably stock blades got little air starved while the massive propeller was able to push more air at lower rpm. If you measure how many amps the fan draws in both cases I'm pretty sure the cheater is using considerably more power when obstructed than the stock blades. For a radiator build I think the stock blades are a total win. Also if you try to have some sorta cheap fan do some pulling from the other side it'll help the stock blades reach full potential at high rpm as well.

It's definitely a pressure difference between the two. The Cheater won max restricted, but just by a bit. It took a bigger hit going from max unrestricted to max restricted.

I would side with everyone who say that most likely people were asking for the cheater exhaust and barrel to be placed on the normal stock fan.

@VagabondTE

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, same

Reiterating your point, cause I think you're right. The blades on the t30 have more surface area, so they're going to move more air at lower speeds than the cheater. But as you increase the speed of rotation, blade stability is important to maintain good quality airflow. The cheater blades look to be thicker, on top of being smaller, making them more stable at higher RPM, so the efficiency of the design is noticeable at high speeds. But in the end, the t30 is the better design because most people aren't running max RPM, it takes less real-estate, and you could fit 3 on a 360 rad. would be interested to see a cheater-rad setup and get some performance data on that with an AIO and an overclock test. If you can fit it

You and Nesto gorgeous team! 👍

I'd assume the biggest advantage of the stock fan is the proximity of the blade trailing edges to the heat exchanger matrix. The flow smoothing exhaust structure on the cheater design allows too much wiggle room. The stock blades are also better configured geometrically to trap air between blade and heat exchanger, smearing it through like a spatula pushing a fluid through a strainer. As you said, the stock fan design is better at developing local static pressure. The cheater is optimized for flow.

It probably has to do with the blade clearance. The smaller the blade clearance, the less air escapes from the sides, rather than going through the radiator. This is why window fans are more efficient with the side curtains extended.

Love your videos man, such an awesome channel. P.s: Listening through studio monitors, you need to bump up your audio mids just a fraction.

Just had a thought - Do more fins allow for increased static pressure? Maybe that's why the Cheater had a lower flow with an obstruction?? idk Also, do you think it would be worth checking out the current draw to see how electrically efficient the fans are? Keep up the good work :) Thank you for your time.

@Garbox80

2 жыл бұрын

Probably yes and tge lower the rpm the bigger the difference (with higher rpm a blade is covering a bigger area in a shorter amount of time). But also the angle of the blades matters. Would be really interesting to see the difference of a standard fan with and without the duct and exhaust.

gratz, Nesto, awesome design.

Crazy fact that Acceleron got choosed as a possible actual product.

Thumbs up for your new test methodology!

Good work - I love your channel! ^^ I wonder what would happen with just a shrouded T30. ;)

It’d be fun to make a supersonic fan. Would need a super beefy brushless motor on it, probably need to put it in a vacuum chamber to reduce the air density enough.

I keep mentioning the GT versions of the Gentletyphoon. Nidec Servo did more than the grey finned fan you have there. Nidec Servo also has a 3000RPM version of the Gentletyphoon - the AP29. They also have a 5200RPM version - the AP-31.

I'm wondering... A pc case with no water cooling reservoir has a lot of space that you can mount to or three cheaters... Can it be usable pc?

Just found this channel. Looks like some neat stuff. I was wondering how you are powering your fans for testing. I looked through your videos but did not see a build video for your test setup. If you have one can you link it please? Thanks.

Very cool testing!

I only just de-fanned my Noctua fan, this is epic!

Hey Major, I have a fun Idea, As most cases are simple boxes nowdays and we know their performance, How about a case build out of shrouds? As a case usually has 4 extra fans, you can enhance the shourds also with 4 extras.

This is so cool! 😍

I would love to see you do the same test on the "best" fan you have had on fan showdown. it was the slug mk2 if i am not wrong? thats a fan i would love to print out and use on my computer.

"Pew, 💥🔫" That editing was superb

Would love to see a test of both the T30 and Cheater, both with the trumpet, but without the straightener in the back!

Thr exhaust side vents on the cheater weren't perfectly lined up so maybe that would create a low pressure zone resulting in buffeting, that would mean more noise and slow down the air a bit.

No smoke? 💨 thanks Nesto.

The distance of the blades to the surface of the radiator makes it lose a lot of static pressure at low rpm unless everything was perfectly sealed up. At high rpm this becomes less of an issue due to the much higher pressure build up between the blades and the radiator surface.

It would be great to just test the air guides on different fans...

@thisisabsolutelystup

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I think he misunderstood here.

What I wanna see is how that big assembly holds up in a case.

I would love to know how the t30 cheater would work without the rear section. It looks like it's designed to be a stator, but as it doesn't mate up with the motor mount struts on the T30 fan it will have higher impedance than it does when used on the Noctua fan. So does the effect of having a stator outweigh the increased impedance or would you be better off without it?

Nesto, stand up guy!

Submitted a fan! I keep coming back to eagerly see if you're giving it a go!

Where did the sound sciene go ? I wanted to see what hz is highlighted ...

Holy crap, thanks to Nesto!!

WOW MY ONE ISSUE IS NOW RESOLVED!!! Thanks man!

that wind tunnel looks like tube of Javelin rocket laucher

It would be interesting to cut down the hub of the T30 and see if it was metal to make it potentially more compatible with some of the previously submitted fan designs. For that matter, the same goes for a Noctua NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM fan to see if it also has the same metal hub as the NF-A12. The Noctua Industrial fan shows that it can pull nearly double the power of the NF-A12 fan... and the T30 can supposedly pull ~2.5 times the NF-A12 fan. #Beefy! Time to take season 5 of the Fan Showdown up to 11! (although... it could also make things a bit scary should a fan be heavily unbalanced and fly apart).