"But It Costs You Nothing To Have Religion." Oh Really? | Talk Heathen: Throwback
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
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Пікірлер: 239
religion costs nothing? how about self respect, honesty, intelligence, sundays off? it‘s not worth it to me.
@Arkloyd
Ай бұрын
Don't forget how an all powerful god demands 10% of your income as a tithe, plus *extra* "offerings".
@RoguePhysicist
Ай бұрын
Depends on the religion. In Christianity, Saturday is the sabbath.
@Gwaithmir
Ай бұрын
It cost me plenty. I had to go to Catholic schools for 12½ years. I can't remember a single week in all that time in which the students weren't dunned for money by the nuns or told to go home and ask their parents to donate money to whatever the latest collection was being taken up. The Church's greed was insatiable.
@LudwigFeuerbach-uf7ri
Ай бұрын
@@RoguePhysicist wow, of course that makes a huge difference.
@wizardsuth
Ай бұрын
A larger cost and more subtle is that it influences your thoughts and decision making. Evangelical preachers have convinced a significant portion of American society to consistently vote against their own best interests.
The reason I'm not a theist is because it would cost my intellectual and moral integrity.
@SolarisKane
Ай бұрын
Same reason I'm also not a liberal.
@Wiggimus
Ай бұрын
@@SolarisKaneWhat do you mean by that?
@SolarisKane
Ай бұрын
@@Wiggimus Liberals lack intellect and moral integrity. They're like conservatives in that way, just about different things.
@bobgreenfield9158
Ай бұрын
Liberal views are like religions. @@Wiggimus
@Wiggimus
Ай бұрын
@@bobgreenfield9158 So what does *that* mean?
Pretending to believe complete nonsense, would cost me my integrity
@KennyTew2
Ай бұрын
And you’d only be pretending anyway
@bobgreenfield9158
Ай бұрын
You must proclaim that lies are true! And you must believe the lies! You must proclaim that the lies are true!
"it costs you nothing"... Except it turns your ENTIRE LIFE into a waiting room.
@AwakenTheEarth
21 күн бұрын
Love this ❤
It costs you 10% of your income....and it costs you your sanity
@dieseljester3466
Ай бұрын
10%? My old Southern Baptist church insisted on 20%... along with the Mormons.
@Arkloyd
Ай бұрын
A church my father used to drag me to would beg for *both* tithes _and_ offerings. Both. 10% of your income plus extra.
@RoguePhysicist
Ай бұрын
When I was a Christian, I rarely tithed. Still, I wasted a lot of time going to church. And you know what they say: time is money.
@gregsanich5183
Ай бұрын
@dieseljester3466 what happens when ppl don't pay?
@dieseljester3466
Ай бұрын
@@gregsanich5183usually they get the cold shoulder and peer pressure of “you really need to support our church by tithing more”
I never chose to be atheist. The more I learned about the religious myths, the less I believed them
Why do I need a god to tell me how to be a decent person? It's so superfluous.
Religion plus Redbull... whoa there Rudy
@satyestru
Ай бұрын
Getting his wi(iiii)ngs early
You don’t “Choose” what to believe. You are either Convinced or you are Unconvinced. The question is - Are you convinced for good reasons or bad reasons?
My big issue with Pascal’s wager is the concept of choosing what you believe. I don’t choose the things that I believe, I have evidence for them.
That ended better than I expected, Rudy acknowledged that the hosts had good reason not believe in unverifiable things, and he didn't have good reasons for believing in unverifiable things,, but he was just gonna go on believing them anyway apparently.
@gregsanich5183
26 күн бұрын
@ziploc2000 But, we have not verified any possibility that can explain and account for the existence of reality and its origins. ....so assuming everything could just come from nothing, or that there simply is no explanation, is also equally believing in something that is unverified.
@ziploc2000
26 күн бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 And that is why we don't make those assumptions, but say "We do not know". We can suggest models of how things might have happened, but we don't know.
Nothing but your dignity, self respect, money, and humanity
Religion costs life.
Even if it didn't cost anything, what kind of reason is that to believe something? What an odd argument.
@capthavic
Ай бұрын
The argument of someone who doesn't value truth.
@MagnusMarcellus
Ай бұрын
Literally what all religious people do. Don’t care enough to test whether the things they believe are true or not. Instead they just pretend it is and go on about their life. And when people ask questions they be like it is true.
@samanthajayewardene4523
Ай бұрын
True. It doesn't cots anything to get a sunburn but why would you want one?
I didn't "choose" to be an atheist. I don't believe in a god. I could join a church, say the prayers, go to mass, all of it. I'd be pretending to believe. I'd still be an atheist. I just wouldn't call myself that.
The intellectual cost is staggering. Relinquishing how to determine what is true is a detriment to society.
@gregsanich5183
Ай бұрын
Wait, who determined what the truth is?
@cliftongaither6642
28 күн бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 facts! facts determine truth.
@cliftongaither6642
28 күн бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 facts! facts determine truth.
@gregsanich5183
27 күн бұрын
@cliftongaither6642 all right. So then your claim is that christians relinquish the ability to use facts to determine truth? ....why would they have to do that? Are there specific facts in particular that you are talking about?
@cliftongaither6642
27 күн бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 excuse me, but i don't recall mentioning christians using facts at all in my comment. that's the problem, christians don't go by facts. that's the point i was making.
When you start thinking about the concept of worship, you start realizing how icky it really is. I don't think we should worship anything.
@diogeneslamp8004
Ай бұрын
Yup, totally don’t get the whole worship thing.
@MrYelly
Ай бұрын
I'd be willing to worship cheese. Cheese is so much better than any abrahamic god.
@diogeneslamp8004
Ай бұрын
@@MrYelly Blessed are the cheesemakers.
@wizardsuth
Ай бұрын
Any being worthy of worship would neither require nor desire it.
It's so cute when they bring Pascal's Wager like a toddler that found a bug -- like no one has ever seen it before and we should all fall down in wonder at it. 😂 Edit after watching: My apologies to Rudy, who is obviously an actual toddler. Christ, dude, read a fucking book besides the Bible. Also, replying after being fully debunked with "Right," then continuing the arrogant insistence is garbage as a personality. Work on yourself.
@samanthajayewardene4523
Ай бұрын
He's so excitable like a small child.
@angelman906
Ай бұрын
I thought of Pascal’s Wager when I was like 11 and I was starting to question Christianity, I am to this day surprised that adults use this.
rudy kept mentioning the 'lord' as if it was something given. his mind is trapped 2000 years in the past and the 'cost' is obvious on rudy himself.
Jen, thank you for making the point about women not wanting to be lesser beings and getting more respect for having boy babies. These discussion are so often only man to man, I really appreciate hearing your perspective. I find the inherent sexism of the Bible, from the first page, is overwhelming & repressive if looked at from a woman’s perspective. You keep it up!
Rudy said towards the end "humans don't just deserve respect" Theism apparently does have a cost, and looks like it's basic human decency
@mekannatarry1929
Ай бұрын
Wait, "don't JUST deserve respect" or "don't deserve respect"? I'm assuming the latter, which I'd agree with you there.
@CarissaNomadic
Ай бұрын
@@mekannatarry1929 (In response to being told ideas deserve suspect, people deserve respect) "You got to remember at the end of the day, people -people... people earn respect, right? People don't just automatically right off the rib _deserve it,_ right? I mean, think about it. If I immediately come on your show and I immediately started dropping F bombs, and say *well F this! F that!! F you!!! -I mean, he doesn't deserve respect." When responded to and further discussed, basically it shifted into that roughly it seems like if someone is disrespectful, Rudy drop respect towards them, but he does have... uh.. well, respect and awe, for when the host replying to him about that he would still give respect to the offender. ("you're a bigger person than me", I think he said) Basically, Rudy wouldn't go as far in charitability, is my understanding, which between the two of them is a pretty common range of attitudes about respect: Not so bad as it first sounds. The discussion is basically up to the end of call, if you want to listen, yourself.
Belief costs nothing? What about women’s health rights, lgbtq rights, both things that religion argues against.
I gotta ask Rudy where he gets his cocaine. Goddamn!!
@samanthajayewardene4523
Ай бұрын
He's sooo hyper.
This was a much better call then we usually hear.
"I wish I had better points..." meaning he wishes he could've won the debate and that's it.
Umm.. my evangelical Lutheran church took 1% of my paycheck every month.. and that was just the tip of the iceberg..
@happyninja42
Ай бұрын
ONLY 1% ?
@einienj3281
Ай бұрын
@@happyninja42 Yeah. "Church tax"
@einienj3281
Ай бұрын
@@happyninja42Evangelical Lutheran is the main religion in my country. So, when they tax about 2,5 million people every month.. that 1% goes a long way..
@happyninja42
Ай бұрын
@@einienj3281 I'm just shocked they only tried to milk you for 1%. The number I always hear from people who went to church is 10% at minimum. One of my coworkers even told me how a particular church he went to, basically had them fill out an economic means test when they joined. And he said the pastor would frequently try and hit them up for more cash, because they felt they weren't giving what they should based on their income bracket.
@einienj3281
Ай бұрын
@@happyninja42 Here it's 1% if you are baptized and a working member of the church. It doesn't change, even if you start making more money or make less. Just 1% to everyone. But then they ask for donations too. I left the church the same day I turned 18. I have never believed and found everything to do with the church annoying. I'm 43 soon and they still send me regular requests to donate. I won't sponsor spreading misinformation and hate.
It all comes down to Rudy doing everything in his power to not admit to himself or the show's host he is wrong. That's what holding a religious belief will do to a person. Have the ability to ignore, alter and invent as much reality as you feel you have to --just to sustain your indoctrinated belief. And hold that ability to do so as a badge of honor.
@arthurwieczorek4894
Ай бұрын
You nailed it. I just returned from a theology meeting group. You nailed it.
It costs friendships, dignity. Intellectual integrity, honesty, time, reasoning capacity, medical advancement, peace, self respect. That's just the start of it.
@gregsanich5183
Ай бұрын
I'm currently wrestling with a formal convention to theism, ... I hadn't heard about any of these extra costs, nobody said anything about any of these. do you know when I'm gona be expected to pay all of those costs? Who exactly sm i paying these to? .... snd how much do they need? Like time? How much time? ... all of it? Which friendships, all oc those? ...Bc that might not work for me.....I don't even have any medical advancement to give them. Do you think I might still be allowed to believe it even if I dont pay these costs?
@sids5002
Ай бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 It's already cost you 5 of them for sure. Collectively it costs others in peace and medical advancement. You may be lucky to escape the others, but it's not a full list.
@gregsanich5183
Ай бұрын
@@sids5002 it has!?!? Oh no! Which 5? ...can I get the 5 things back? Is it too late to get a refund?
@sids5002
Ай бұрын
@@gregsanich5183 Well to go along with your nonsense, clearly the reasoning capacity for one. I'll leave you to figure out the rest all by yourself, as you seem like a very clever guy.
@gregsanich5183
Ай бұрын
@sids5002 so you mean to say that you could actusly support and substantiate your claims, and that they really could stand up to scrutiny, .... if you felt like it tho, but you don't, so I just have to trust you, bro....right?
Rudy would lose his mind if he saw David Copperfield.
Man, that's a ton of stuff to put aside.
That’s what a good faith conversation looks like. Good caller.
He asked about choosing to be religious or choosing to be atheist… Believing isn’t a choice, it’s an expression of your understanding. If your understanding changes, your beliefs change. That’s why we keep saying we’re not convinced. We can’t believe it until we understand it to be true.
Saying “religion doesn’t cost anything” is for sure spoken form a place of privilege. At least in the USA, the only time religion doesn’t cost anything is if you’re a straight, white, cis man
Religion cost nothing.... tell that to the gays
I really appreciate this call. When I was still a Christian, I had much the same idea, that it wasn't hiring me to be a Christian and it made me happy, where the thought is there being no God, no heavenly Father Looking out for me, made me sad. So whenever doubt crept into my mind, which was often considering I studied biology in college and have always loved science, but I always did whatever mental gymnastics needed to reconcile what I knew of science and reason vs religious beliefs. I thought Pascal's wager was very reasonable. I did consider, but what if it's a different religion that's right? But dismissed it by accepting what I was being told, that my religion was the most likely to be true. But deep down, I always knew, but would never admit, that the skeptic in me just didn't see any reason to believe in the other religions, but the indoctrination made me fear the hell I was raised to fear. I knew it was incongruent but couldn't let myself admit it. One of the things that allowed me to finally begin my deconstruction, was realizing that my beliefs actually were causing me harm, and had caused me to be hurtful to others. The inherent sexism in the church had deeply affected me as a woman. The fact that I am pansexual but had spent about twenty years of my life denying that, praying to God to take those feelings away, telling myself I was confused, that the devil was trying to trick me and lead me astray, and blaming myself for not praying earnestly enough for God to 'straighten me out', and fearing I'd go to hell as a result, and feeling guilty as if the real shame in that would be letting God down... All of that did harm to me. But it also drove me to say things like 'love the sinner, hate the sin' to LGBTQ+ friends despite knowing how much it hurt because I felt the hurt. And I spouted other rhetoric and supported policies that were demonstrably harmful, because I believed the spiritual aspect was more important. And as I became more progressive, using the Bible to justify trying to actually help people, I had to listen to Christians, including family members, claim I had been tricked by the devil and was going against God, and be told I might end up in hell. That caused so much anguish and anxiety as my irrational, indoctrinated mind warred with my conscience and reason. Which led me to a deeper dive into the religion to try and understand God's true heart and intent... And I realized the Bible is a hot mess. And as a parent, I was finally able to admit that I would never want my child to have such an abusive parent as God. That there was nothing worth holding onto it defending. Everything good we can get from religion, we can get without religion and the baggage it brings. And we can learn better ways to handle the hard things in life. And it's so much easier to just follow your own conscience and be a better person. Although, it is harder to justify bigotry, so that can be a hard pill for some people to swallow.
now you know why rudy calls in. everyone he knows will not talk with him because he just never shuts up and makes no sense.
"I mean jee golly gosh! It costs nothing!" - The 40 year old virgin 😂
Rudy isn't the sharpest tool in the christian apologist toolbox.
When I was a theist, there definitely were costs involved. Not only in money, but also time spent at church when I could have been doing other things. And then on top of that, it stunted my education (being a YEC), and really taught me messed up things when it came to equal rights that I had to work through after my deconversion.
We can't make ourselves believe in things we don't believe in. The better question is why don't we pretend we believe? For me, I have better things to do with my time and money than church stuff.
Excellent discussion!
They don't, or can't, see how they backtrack, avoid, tie themselves into knots, or move goal posts as they argue. They simply can't comprehend anything that counters their argument, regardless of how well their arguments are trashed. Pascals wager? He couldn't even begin to comprehend where you were going. He just leapt to a whole new line of reasoning. Exhausting.
Hey Rudy, what if you were to keep it down to like... half a gram of blow before you call next time. Guy needs to put down the ice pipe before calling into a show.
The time that most religions require of their members is a huge huge cost
Pascal's Wager presents a false dichotomy by only considering the choice between belief in God and disbelief, ignoring the possibility of other gods or alternative belief systems.
I just enjoy this dude....all the way to the end, haha
"You believe what you want to believe but I am going to pass religious based laws so that you must listen to me, do what ever I tell you to do, live your life the I want you to live, love only who I say you can love and hate everyone I hate and do only those things that I allow you to do. And give me money."
Absolutely in love with Candi Carpenter's - "Everybody goes to hell" song. If you haven't heard it. It's very cathardic for religious trauma.
It also costs nothing to have a six-inch nail hammered into my head, but I'd really rather not.
@diogeneslamp8004
Ай бұрын
It costs you your health.
@KeplersDream
Ай бұрын
@@diogeneslamp8004 And religion costs you your critical thinking.
@diogeneslamp8004
Ай бұрын
@@KeplersDream And we see that evidenced every day on KZread, don’t we?
@KeplersDream
Ай бұрын
@@diogeneslamp8004 Absolutely. Popcorn smörgåsbord.
@diogeneslamp8004
Ай бұрын
@@KeplersDream 😂👍
Costs even less to have nihilism
Rudy is one of the best theists I have heard on here, even if his reasoning is a bit off
10% baby 10%.
As an Ex-Christian. I don't and can't understand why there are so many Christians fundamentalists around the world, who are not capable of crossing a street corner, without being told where, when and how to cross the street. People who get involved in cults are the same way. They are unable to think for themselves and they need to be told what, where, when and how to believe in something. I guess that's one of my faults, I think for myself. (Can't believe they fell for the sin & salvation BS.)
This caller reeks of privilege
@AngryBoozer
Ай бұрын
9 times out of 10 when someone claims “privilege” it’s utter nonsense. But in this case I can’t imagine how sheltered of a bubble one must live in to not even conceive that religion comes with heavy costs or any cost at all.
God of the gaps argumentor. Wonderful.
It costs shellfish. It is a cost I am unable to accept.
who needs 10 commandments? just 2 would suffice 1: do no harm, 2: enjoy yourself.
What about tithe ?
Religion contributes approximately 350 billion dollars annually to the world's economies. I suspect that money comes from people who attend religious services and say it doesn't cost anything.
Red Bull gives you wings and this!!!
religion costs you your freedom,
rudy: Belief is not a choice.
10 % off gross income does not equal free
The caller keeps saying ‘choose what I believe’…that bugs me. One does not choose what they believe. You either believe or you don’t.
I would like rudy to know that there are plenty of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing
It is such a shame when a caller is just either intellectually out of their depth or genuinely mistaken regarding their whole understanding or even the concept generating their often flawed argument. We now all have access to so much more information than we did even just 10-15 years ago thanks to to tech. Just do your research to back up your best shot to prove your shit. If you don't then these dudes will tear u a new AHole!
Until independently verifiable evidence has been produced, and it is falsifiable, then believing in God costs critical thinking. It also costs the strength and courage that come from not jumping to conclusions without evidence.
I was abused as a child and I would prefer that experience than I would choose to be the child of this caller. Fuck.
Using the million dollars in a room analogy, Rudy's question is comparable to asking what reason there is to not believe that there's a million dollars in the room. It's like, there's no reason to believe or not to believe, but why are you focusing so much on this belief thing and not trying to actually figure out if there really is a million dollars in the room or not? People that believe in god are essentially the same people that believe there's a million dollars in a room just because someone told them there was, despite the fact that they haven't even looked in the room to determine if that is indeed the case.
The levels of naïveness and ignorance is baffling
You guys ever had anyone kinda give up enough ground to become very skeptical and look more into it or actually deconvert??
All life was in the Big bang it was all there everything that ever would be was there so we are all tiny gods. It's the word God that should be retired
You're supposed to put money in the bowl, Rudy
Cost argument is so weird. Why does it really matter that you may/not pay for it in some fashion..? 2:46 Honestly it sounds like "My abuser isn't going out of his way to hurt me anymore, so it's all good", which I get that Rudy may not have the experiences to see the red flag with it, but that is the relationship between the Church and women: The idea that these days society doesn't do that doesn't really work 4:57 I know what he means, but it's really weird to hear "Whether there's a God, whether there's an Allah..." as if a "God" isn't a type of identity and instead a particular person. I also caught that "It doesn't have to be..." being pointed to other gods even though the conversation was about his... It's not marks against, but it's those little subtle things you notice about the way the stance affects wording and stuff, you know? 8:31 Huh, he's kind of gish galloping all over the standard array. I swear it's like Christians open a booster pack and during a conversation, they tap two mountains and play the "Problem of Evil", then two plains and anything for a colorless to play "A Sense of Community". I guess (besides the FaF part of the approach, which is a lot of its own trouble) there's nothing inherently wrong with him doing that, but... it is a little overwhelming, you know? I agree when it was said at 10:30 that it was him getting excited, he does seem sincerely thrilled about this kind of conversation, which does feel amusing to me because one of the hosts seems to take a similar thrilled tone, so it feels like a sort of meeting point between them. (Though the host seems to be 'raises voice' excitable versus Rudy being 'rambly' excitable) 10:30 Buckshot indeed! I do agree that it was just getting excited, Rudy did sound like he was getting super thrilled about engaging in this... What's kind of funny (not like "wow, you did after he did?, but, chuckle amusement) that one of the hosts then gets super excited in his response at 11:53 XD ...Well... maybe? Maybe he's just kind of annoyed. I'm not sure. 13:26 I VERY MUCH appreciate Rudy's honesty when... uh... he blanks (or didn't know of) the commandments. So, I think I may have missed a couple, but we got Pascal's Wager, "If I can just get you to theism..." (I'm not sure that has a name), Appeal to Mystery, "you put your faith in scientists" (Since that's technically a different argument), "you have your faith I have my faith", on top of whatever you'd make the cost-based one. I feel like Rudy is a pretty good caller. Yeah, he lamented that he didn't have arguments, but think of it from your own side. For science, it would be natural of me to lament if I could not bring good arguments to explain the validity of evolution, when I got blindsided by argument from incredulity (with giraffes)... I was not led to abandon evolution, or science more generally, and have the integrity that you may not have the best understanding but the right idea is a good value of its own. Rudy may very well just not have heard anything decisive enough to drop religion for him, even though the things said may be good enough to drop Christianity over, for you or me. One who would readily take or drop faith based on getting debated down is going to end up being wishy washy, inconsistent, and easily rendered lost in life.
I've yelled at Oden... didn't help 😢
If you believe there’s something in the sky? What the actual?
By the way you don't choose the things you believe you are convinced of the things you believe. If you think you get to choose your beliefs then I question whether or not you actually believe the things you choose to believe.
Supernatural means imagination, if you can imagine it but can't show it's real it's supernatural. We don't choose what to believe, you can't choose to be an Atheist, it's a position you end up at as a result of not believing a god is real. Everyone is an Atheist about all gods apart from their special god it's not a choice.
Watching these people live like sheep and then claim that there is no cost.. It baffles me.. The reason to not believe without good reason, you do not have to live like a slave, but actually be you.
i feel theists are like those goody goody kids and athiests are like a Bart Simpson kinda kid, so glad im a athiest
Atheist, more free time to think about other things, doing things that are right at the time. Muck up? my fault, not a test from above.
Is this the Rudy Monologue or a conversation? 😂 and if the supernatural is something we cannot comprehend, then why are you poseting it/ believing it then?!
Christians pay all those tithes and offerings.
I would think they would be just as many gods and goddesses are there are hairs on the head of the crown of our head. The world seems to be built for spiders.
ACA has sure gone to hell in that rat ot so. Someone fugged up big time.
He sure knows a lot of words for only having a 3rd grade education.
What is the truth worth?
It costs you your Sundays.
It amazes me how most theists revert back to basic childlike reasoning when attempting to apply logic to religion but not to anything else! This really demonstrates indoctrination at its most effective!
It cost nothing but ones dignity, ones humanity.
Over and over the cross-talking gulf between theists and atheists prevents them from getting down to the the very nitty-gritty. This being, is theism necessary for societies to functionally exist? It does appear to me that theism is an essential glue that societies need to give each individual a commonality they feel they can rely on. But, on the other hand when it comes to science everyday ground-level theists, especially those with "conservative" personalities, don't feel comfortable with "science" as they appear to feel they can't rely on it for immutable truths which they cannot happily exist without. Most of the blame for this can be heaped onto headline chasing information providers, with their half truths and outright lies so as to make a buck from incredulous viewers. "As societies evolve, finding a balance between theism and science becomes crucial. Perhaps we need a nuanced approach-one that appreciates both the comforting embrace of faith and the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Bridging the cross-talking gulf requires empathy, open dialogue, and a willingness to explore the nitty-gritty of our beliefs."
Religion isn't honest.
If he's using the word supernatural to describe things which are completely natural but not well-understood, then his definition of the word is absolutely useless
Most theists are just geographically confused deists! The good thing is that if you eventually deconstruct it all wipes out that confusion!!!
What advantage do you have over believing there is a 99.99% probability (I digress) of there not being a god over believing there is one? ER...TRUE INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM?
It costs nothing to have religion. All you have to do is give up your critical mental faculties and find a holy person or holy book to obey.
Christian husband: “Do you feel oppressed?” Christian wife: “No sir.”
Going by this caller christianity costs rational thought. Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy supernatural? Black holes..supernatural? Bible content reality? Proof that religion generates weird beliefs
okay since these God's children and these religion folks got so much pull .how about they bring they're God from the sky? 😂😂
Once again, the knowledge and what humans know, is rooted into the existence of a god and super natural things. Seems like an obvious connection going on.