"We can't ban dockside because we sell goldfish treasure tokens, cancel the podcast" This was the perfect ending lol

@natejablonski

2 жыл бұрын

Was going to leave the episode. Then I saw this comment. Worth the wait

@cannastartover1720

Жыл бұрын

We need a card that disallows treasure to be sacrificed. Could be like a miser, like an Ebenezer Scrooge.

@Tspang42

Жыл бұрын

@@cannastartover1720 yasharn

I'm definitely going to run Blind Obedience more. It was already useful but delaying Treasures by a turn makes it incredible.

@Kryptnyt

2 жыл бұрын

Rule of Law effects are also excellent to combat the overabuse of mana

@wiredspider

2 жыл бұрын

Collector ouphe and stony silence are big in my pod

@bamby3144

Жыл бұрын

manglehorn babyyyy

@Minervastouch

Жыл бұрын

Go all the way and play kismet, affects lands too :)

@Sivarias

6 ай бұрын

@@Kryptnyt I prefer Leyline of Singularity :)

I’ve always thought a good fix to Smothering Tithe would be to make it not trigger on the first card your opponents draw each turn, so it only punishes extra draw effects, you don’t get a guaranteed trigger every single turn.

@johanandersson8252

2 жыл бұрын

That is also what i would do to fix it.

@vinnythewebsurfer

2 жыл бұрын

That doesn’t stop the weenies like Tomer who can’t stand upkeeps from complaint about it

@johanandersson8252

2 жыл бұрын

@@vinnythewebsurfer True 🫣

@leviponce7730

2 жыл бұрын

Its definitely the thing that easily pushes it over the edge especially when an early tithe drop is basiclly just impossible to pay for without just doing nothing for 2 to 3 turns just because of the draw step hit

@DarthChocolate15

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure how playable that version is though, even at like 1 mana. It becomes matchup dependent or forces you to be playing a strategy where you force your opponents to draw more.

The future of treasures is "Enters the battlefield tapped" treasures.

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

Thank goodness they arent as broken as a gold token.

@baconsir1159

2 жыл бұрын

I am from the future, this is only half right

@eulefranz944

Жыл бұрын

Welcome to Powerstones !

@Jlizard27

2 ай бұрын

This comment aged very well.

@Ubermunki3

22 күн бұрын

Yeah this never happened

What makes dockside of all treasure enablers busted is an amalgamation of things. Low CMC, it’s a creature which makes it easy to recur, blink, etc. its also easily tutored up with stuff like imperial recruiter, goblin matron, recruiter of the guard in addition to the more universal tutors. The body it’s attached to is just very easy to abuse.

@zackkelley2940

2 жыл бұрын

Heck, you could run it in a Rakdos deck with Shirei. It is a 1 power creature. Come to think of put em both in Prosper and throw in Pitiless Plunderer, also a 1 power creature Shirei can get back, to go REALLY nuts.

@dapperghastmeowregard

2 жыл бұрын

It also just makes an absurd amount of mana for its cost. Like yeah, that depends on your opponents but between tithe, study, remora, boot, greaves, swords, etc, without even getting into mana rocks (basically the only way a lot of decks can meaningfully ramp) I'd wager you get an average of 2 treasures per opponent. And a 1R sorcery that adds RRRRRR already seems pretty concerning before you factor in all the ways Dockside is even stronger than that.

From what I remember Gold was switched to Treasure because of improvised ability, because apparently that was too busted.

I think Ixalan was peak treasures. Like clues, blood, food, they were balanced and fit to exist in Standard. I think when they started to make them an deciduous effect they got out of hand. I don't think that treasures should have been printed in Ravnica Allegiance, Strixhaven, Kaldheim, Modern Horizons, or even New Capenna honestly. I feel that they were most realistic and flavorful in Ixalan and Forgotten Realms. I think now they chain long and boring turns that don't add much (@prosper the tomb bound) to the game. If anything, they should receive an errata to enter the battlefield tapped.

@aorusaki

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Ixalan needed treasures for the pirate exploring theme. The DnD set needed treasures because duh. But the treasure cards needed to be way weaker. Maybe treasures should enter tapped by default? Maybe the payoffs should take way more treasures? Like sac 3 or 5 treasures to draw not just 1. Treasures NEED to be seen as (almost) strictly better rituals and balanced that way

@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai

2 жыл бұрын

They made enough sense in Ravnica (Orzhov) and New Capenna. But yeah they need to chill on it. It’s practically baked into the game at this point, though, so unless they errata them or something, their existence is going to shape the rest of the game from here on out. They’re just that powerful, there’s no reason not to play them. At the rate they’re expanding on them, I wouldn’t be totally surprised if they’ve replaced lands 5 years from now.

Treasures coming in tapped is something ive seen in this new set that can power down the mechanic

I think we definitely will have more treasure in the D&D Commander Legends before they might stop making treasure. Treasure is so engraved in D&D that it feels wrong to not have treasure or dragons in the set.

Blue ramps the old-fashioned way: draw enough cards that you make your land-drop every turn

@vinnythewebsurfer

2 жыл бұрын

Also cheat costs/extra turns and until last year had the most broken mana producer even more than dockside. Dockside at least needs everyone playing a bunch of artifacts; hullbreacher just needed you to have wheels or other discard hand/draw cards and they’re shitting down your throat no matter what your deck is

@starchaser6024

2 жыл бұрын

Blue doesn’t need to ramp. Counterspell costs 2 mana.

@havendell

2 жыл бұрын

This is the reason White was considered to have the worst ramp. White's catch-up ramp emulates the stability of land drops you get out of Blue (or every other color), but without the incidental benefit of, say, drawing a bunch of nonlands, too.

@bodaciouschad

2 жыл бұрын

@@havendell White's catchup mechanic was "Shared suffering" cards, or "equalizers", as white tended to keep their cards in hand until they wrathed, then rebuild the fastest with those accumulated cards. The problem is that the strategy is: so linear that everyone knows its coming, it isn't fun, and it isn't proactive in a way that is engaging or reactive in a manner that is effective. The problem is and was that white is just poorly designed. White should be the color of rule setting, creature anthems, life gain, wraths and hate barers. Any time white steps outside of that aspect of it's color identity you end up with "format staples" that usually don't even see play in monowhite decks unless they are so busted that they see play in every deck with white in them. WOTC should have put their foot down and told players that White's ramp was the same as Blue and Red: Artifacts. And white doesn't need "more card draw". The only people asking for that were mono white players who didn't want to rely on Sram or another similar effect resolving in order to go off. White's version of land ramp should be an instant that lets them search a plains every time a land etbs this turn, or a sorcery that lets them search a land for every land an opponent controls that etbs until their next end step, or an enchantment/creature that lets them search a land/explore every time an opponent triggers landfall more than once per turn. Playing with the rules, not generating generically good value.

@ms.sysbit5511

2 жыл бұрын

It also has untappers that can ramp you by floating mana. People seem to forget that blue has this among its options.

I find it interesting how Smothering Tithe was being regarded an equal offender to Dockside Extortionist. Unless you counter Dockside, the damage is done immediately. Tithe, unless chained with a wheel, gives ample time for removal before it's even paid for itself. Is it really so much more egregious than cards like Seedborn Muse, Wilderness Reclamation or Crypt Ghast? They're all very strong, but long as the table recognises the threat, I'd say there's room for them. It honestly feels like half the salt for Tithe is just 'cause folks aren't used to White actually going off! Anyway, good show, keep doing your thing~

@supranova7594

2 жыл бұрын

It's also probably more egregious to them specifically cuz Tomer and (mainly) Seth will literally throw a game just to draw as many cards as possible giving the Tithe controller oodles of mana 😆

@Flailkerrin

2 жыл бұрын

@@supranova7594 That....is a very good point haha, we all know players where it feels like decking themselves is their permanent alt win con!

@idontwantone1108

2 жыл бұрын

Actually the last commander clash had a dockside resolve and the game lasted turns more. Him coming down does not end the game contrary to popular belief.

@murilofreire4569

2 жыл бұрын

Treasures help RW the most. Colors that really need it. People who complain about treasures just don't know how to play the game.

@Flailkerrin

2 жыл бұрын

@@idontwantone1108 Funnily enough I happened to watch that game right after this video! Though I agree Dockside ain't an instant WIN, I feel that episode only illustrates my point, as it was "Tithe, pass turn" compared to Dockside "so...you can win right?", feel like Richard mighta been determined to win with Deathrender rather than other means, which I applaud for being in the spirit of the random card decks!

I don't think theyre inheritly a.problem, but I think they are pushing it to where the format will eventually just warp around it because of the effects they print.

Treasures are a problem. Not inherently, since in theory they could be priced to be fair, but in practice they are not. Like draw and ramp, broken treasure cards are different from other broken cards because they don’t generally beat you directly, but they remove a core constraint of the game and by doing so create a structural advantage that other players must match to compete. Treasures also happen to be highly synergistic with a number of core game mechanics - most obviously artifacts, tokens and sacrifice, which makes them more fraught. They have been made even more problematic by a number of wild design decisions: 1. They have been indiscriminately allocated across the colour pie, giving all colours ramp and fixing at little to no cost. 2. For some reason designers thought they needed extra support. So we got seemingly countless cards that double them, double their value, create direct win cons, sac them for creature tokens, sac them for cards, sac them for removal, etc. 3. They were printed into the ground. 4. They were drastically undercosted.

@2ndLastStarfighter

2 жыл бұрын

Paragraphs 2 & 3 pretty much summarizes the issues I have with Treasures as well. I honestly hated hearing how Tomer said Mark wanted to speed up Commander...he obviously didn't understand the reason many of us got into EDH!

when mark rosewater did that article proposing rule changes for the commander format, he explicitly stated that he wanted games to be faster, which goes in line with the printing of cards like jeweled Lotus, jeska and all this treasure

@ConstanceMists

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly anyone in this comment section has probably played more games of commander than MARO. Until the banlist is actually managed by wizards I’ll take anything anyone says about commander from wizards with a grain of salt. Theyre just out to make money not balance the format

Do groups self regulate? Not really, evidence shows we as people are bad at self regulation. It's just a difficult thing to do and groups tend towards power creeping itself over time.

ETB tapped is the best solution, they r probably just gonna make sure the next ones (named something like "jewellery") make them enter tapped but keep old ones like they are. I think the reason most people dont realise how strong treasures are, havent played with lotus petal. Blue dont need ramp, they get to do everything in magic, they can just draw half their deck and play artifacts and then rift.

The premiere format for Magic used to be Standard. Standard rotated. Therefore there was ALWAYS demand for the new cards, regardless of how "good" they were because they were only being compared to what was in standard at the time. Now the premiere format for Magic is Commander. Commander does not rotate. If a new card is not better than an existing card, why would you go buy it? In order to drive sales, the power must be crept. That's why rotation was so important.

@daviddeboer8793

2 жыл бұрын

You can sell cards based on more then power; flavor, art, design and niche effect, to name a few. I actually think they got better at this with the new products (compared to the cards from the year of commander), though they also print powerhouse cards sometimes.

@jamesgratz4771

2 жыл бұрын

@@daviddeboer8793 you really think content creators care about flavor ? They’ll push whatever wizards tell them to to sell packs. Mainly command zone

@calenhoover1124

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamesgratz4771 So dramatic lol.

@bartoszganko5290

2 жыл бұрын

Power creep always existed in the game even if standard was the main format because inside the standard block you still have the problem of sets having to be better than the prior

@Deceptibot94

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamesgratz4771 we both know that Command Zone is just an off shore shell company for WOTC at this point

A card I've added into my green decks for "treasure hate" is manglehorn. Can remove more problematic artifacts on etb and makes them come into play tapped as well as only hurting your opponents. Imo, better than the viridian revel mentioned in the podcast

@baconsir1159

2 жыл бұрын

Ouphe pretty great, no treasure

@ACertainGuy0

Жыл бұрын

Viridian Revel is a great answer to treasures, each treasure they sack you can draw a card off of it. They can make 7 mana with treasures but youre getting a full grip in response lol.

@zacharyroach4957

Жыл бұрын

@@ACertainGuy0 Eh but they still do their busted thing whereas cards like Manglehorn and Ouphe stop that from happening.

@ACertainGuy0

Жыл бұрын

@@zacharyroach4957 Yeah but somehow we think rhystic study is broken for the same concept. "Do a thing i draw".

Slapping make treasure on a lot of cards feels a lot like the urza block untap lands which is a notoriously broken ability so I would be a little worried about more treasure cards

@TransformersBoss

2 жыл бұрын

[slaps the hood of the card] “this bad boy can fit so many Treasure tokens in it!”

Richard's answer to everything: Why play interaction, just pop off first.

My favorite podcast, I always look forward to you guys talking about stuff!

Liked hearing Tomer’s story talking to Gavin about Prosper being a mistake. Would love to hear what Tomer (and Gavin) think about Tivit, Seller of Secrets, a new commander that gives both mana (treasures) and cards (clues). Thanks for the pod as always!

@BigBoi237

2 жыл бұрын

I will say that Tivit is a 6-drop as opposed to Prosper being a 4-drop, and Prosper gives more treasures far more easily. Tivit only triggers on ETB or combat damage, meaning blink effects are king, while unblockable is another way of getting the value out of Tivit. Prosper gives you mana for everything that is from exile, but Tivit on his own gives you mana only on his ETB or combat damage, both of which are far more difficult and slower to abuse.

Question: What if treasures only made colourless mana, would that work better? Makes them a little less useful, still super good but still.

@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena

2 жыл бұрын

Yes and No for the casual side yes a lot as it is not mana of any color and while it would be broken in artifact decks it is not that much of a problem as something being broken in 1 specific deck is fine example Timetwister in Wheels which is the only type of deck that can break that card and Phage needing an entire deck built around her these are fine specific scenarios

Nobody in my playgroup spends 60€ on a Dockside, so thats a you problem :D And the edhrec guys themself say that their data does not necessarily reflect reality. Some people put a optimised version of theire real deck on the internet, because why not. And I think players that spent less on their decks are less likely to put their lists on the internet. So i would take the 20% of decks for Dockside with a grain of salt. Love the show keep it up ;)

The answer, I'm sure Crim would have said ...is to make Treasure Punisher cards. Cards that make Treasure enter tapped Cards that make Treasure tap for only one colour Cards that Force Treasure to be sacred at end of turn It's easy to make Treasure still viable but yet still fair.

@sunbathermtg

Жыл бұрын

A lot of these exist already. Yasharn, Collector Ouphe, Kataki, Titania's Song, Blind Obedience. Even colorless ones so everyone can play it like Karn the Great Creator. Treasure hate cards exist and while treasure is "meta" you will wanna run them, just like people run Bojuka Bog in GY metas.

@DevoidGoat

Жыл бұрын

@@sunbathermtg yeah but those punish more than specifically treasures(which makes them good but I was saying to make ones that target treasures alone) but that's why stax gets hate and will get you killed like crim does 😆

@theetiologist9539

Жыл бұрын

The problem is that you have to staple these effects onto a card that does something else that you need your commander deck to do otherwise those cards won’t make it into any decks. If you have made a mechanic so oppressive and powerful that your answer is to design the game around beating that mechanic then you’ve had a massive design mistake.

@DevoidGoat

Жыл бұрын

@@theetiologist9539 well magic has always had punisher cards for every mechanic they make (generally) Treasures aren't that oppressive I was just saying the answer usually is to make punisher cards. There's usually always a way to counter some mechanic. I gave suggestions as to how to nerf the treasure creating spree that has been happening. It's not that hard but I agree with your otherwise. Green ramp has been out of hand but then people complain when you play leonin arbiter or Aven Mindcensor in your white weenies deck. They'll remove your stuff or try to kill you rather than the green/simic player who starts hard casting a buncha Bs. Same thing happens to me when I play Jolene and treasures start piling up. The player who has the stax gets killed instead of me who can use my treasures if they die. It don't make sense. But I'd be happy for more punisher mechanic cards, #TeamCrim

Had a game yesterday where an opponent ran Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator, then Sakashima of a Thousand Faces, then Phyrexian Metamorph, made like 6-10 treasures, then cast Urza. I even had the perfect hate card in Pernicous Deed, but they of course had the counter backup. The game was over at that point.

"Losing 2 life when saccing treasures" - Richard. There's a card like that already called Magnetic Mine.

i think a big problem w dockside is that it is a creature so it can be brought back into the battlefield in multiple ways and generate infinite treasure in a turn.

Tbh, the group I play with churns out A LOT of incidental treasure tokens. Combine that with a sol ring start or a mana generating commander and many games just turn into archenemy on turn 2 or 3. This seems to happen consistently. It's not the worst to deal with, but I don't see the distinction between fast starts/high value commanders and stax. In both cases, your entire focus shifts to getting rid of a couple of cards on the board before you can start to continue your strategy again. Both scenarios restrict your available options to win the game drastically. In some ways, stax is better because the turns don't take as long despite a very similar outcome. Maybe stax takes longer, but that's usually because there'll be a stubborn person or two that wants to keep suffering after a handful of turns where your outs could've done something.

Richard is on point 100%

I always think of Tomer, Prosp-Bound whenever I hear that card.

Before watching the video, I think treasure are completely fine. I find that they help white and red the most, but also helps budget player color fix (outside obvious power house such as dockside and smothering tithe that are just too expabsive). Sure they can be a bit broken if built around, but at that point, there is plenty of other strategies that are broken when built around

First time I played a Prosper deck, I added one-two artificat wipe spells to all decks.

I think a growing EDH ban list is inevitable, just because it’s a non-rotating format and without some kind of ability to manage power creep, it’ll die. Maybe there should be a separate “vintage cEDH” list, but there’s gotta be one.

Wotc keeps printing either once per turn cards or cards that can do things as many times as you want. Why are they not exploring cards that for example allow you to do something twice or thrice a turn?

1:05:05 I agree Tomer. I'm a new player and pickup games on Spelltable or at the LGS commander night have been absolutely horrendous. Theres always one person who's just there to pub stomp like its Arena Best Of One or something.

I loved what Phil mentioned with Jewel Thief. Cards are so freaking power crept these days and no one even notices because it is considered standard. When I compare it to Trained Armodon, I want to puke. And Jewel Thief is considered a bad card. No one gives a f..k about vigilance and trample. It is really going in a very wrong direction.

As a red player since 94, I’ve been loving the treasures. It’s actually made my favorite color more viable. If they get rid of it or lessen them, I’d of course prefer the latter. With cards like dockside, underworld breach and jeskas will, it’s finally made red more playable in the higher end games. I fully admit that Cappena went way overboard with treasures. And Tomer mentioning Magda…it’s only recently got it’s love for cEDH. I’ve been playing it since it got released. I’ve wanted a dwarf/dragon deck forever. But seriously, go back two months, the deck didn’t even get spoken about.

In juri i run ruthless knave and fair treasure makers; id never ever run dockside…..that card should not exist. I just want a few treasures to sac so juri gets big and rakdos gets some ramp, but legit if not paying and sacking creatures to make one or two treasures, it does get broken. Prosper is perfect example of broken, where professional facebreaker is combat based and makes 3 treasures at most.

If all the rituals became treasure makers, everyone would play them and Red would be broken. If you flip it, treasure makers are now rituals, most would not be played. Treasure being ramp, artifacts, and easy sacrifice payoff makes them to busted. How good anything is is based on how easy/hard it is to do/get them and how punishing it is when a mistake is made with said thing. Treasure are super easy to make, cost nothing to use, and almost no punishment can happen to it due to its sacrificing ability. The only thing that can really punish treasures is preventing players from sacrificing things which are far too rare, and if you have something like that out you automatically become a target because you're stopping other people from sacrificing.

The reason they replaced gold with treasures was the Improvise mechanic, which gold can *not* pay double for, but it's super counter-intuitive for new players: You may pay costs in any order, i.e. tap first or pay mana first, however, to be able to pay mana, you must have mana already when you reach the step where you pay. To have mana, you must have activated mana abilities either before casting the spell/activating the ability, or do it in a separate step right before the payment step. Having to tap treasure to generate the mana makes it more obvious that a single token can only pay for one mana, even with Improvise.

Great episode! As a Pirate tribal player, I love the flavor. Dockside and Hullbreacher are both pirates and I do consider them a mistake, but I agree with Phil and Seth. Treasures ARE a payoff, and shouldn’t have payoffs themselves (besides Revel because argh) 🏴‍☠️

I play Magda in Feather, just to ramp, and occasionally to tutor Mirrorwing Dragon with treasures from this or Smothering Tithe or Storm-Kiln Artist. The problem is you only need the mildest of synergies to play treasures, because the floor is you ramped.

I'd honestly compare treasures in commander to decayed zombies in Midnight Hunt draft. They were designed to be a fair small effect, but once every counterspell, removal, draw, and aristocrats piece has a token stapled onto it, every payoff is an insane bomb no matter how little that payoff seems.

I mean treasure is broken in the same way that lots of stuff are broken in edh. Many cards are clearly too powerful but we accept that a number of broken cards are just here to stay. I’d also say that at this point the cards have been out long enough that I doubt we’ll see any hits. Heck we might be more likely to see reprints so wotc can take advantage of all the nonsense they’ve printed

The thumbnail looks like it’s saying you guys are all treasures and frankly I have to agree

3:21 I agree with Richard, treasures are essentially a modernized version of rituals. With several added upsides such as being able to save the mana for another turn, being artifacts for affinity and other artifact synnergies, triggering sacrifice etc. I am also abit annoyed that any new mana accleration mechanic keeps going to red as of late. Black used to be the primary colour for rituals, then they decided that black should no longer get rituals, and instead make red the primary ritual colour intead. Black and Blue used to be the treasure colours, then they decided that treasures should primarily be in red. Ontop of all this, red has gotten new forms of mana generation in cards like Birgi and Run-away Steamkin. They keep saying that its the impulsive nature of red lets them have mana acceleration, that they want to do something NOW. But then, treasures are actually going against reds colour pie philosophy, since you can save the treasures for later turns. By the colourpie philosophy red shouldn't be able to save them up for later. Why do all these different mechanics to generate mana advantage all gg to one colour? Would it not be more prudent to seperate the mechanics into different colour identities, and cement them as ways for each colour to have its own form of mana acceleration?

Always here for Richard to speak T R U T H to everyone!

Treasures have an interesting side of design space that is only just being used, which is "cheap spell that is balanced by giving your opponent treasures"; An Offer You Can't Refuse seems like a sweet card and I'd like them to do more stuff with that. Generally speaking Treasures as a whole seem like massive power creep to me - cards which incidentally have "here print an amount of Lotus Petals and have at" seems kinda busted.

Treasures in a vacuum are fine, however they are making way to many cards with the mechanic. And note, we are heading into an artifact heavy set of blocks with Brothers War and presumably Returning to New Phyrexia.

I card I've had success with countering treasures with is Rebuild. It returns all artifacts to their owners hands at instant speed. You don't run into the same problem as vandalblast in terms of drawing hate cause it will essentially only destroy token artifacts. Btw it also cycles for 2 so it won't be a dead draw in your average game. Also you can do this in response to dockside's trigger it lessen value your opponents getting.

They are probably moving treasures away from blue because blue has the best cards that care about artifacts in modern, legacy, and vintage. Particularly 8-Cast with Thoughcast, Thought Monitor, Kappa Canooneer which get cheaper bc of affinity or improvise. Combined with more potential blue cards in the deck to make the Forces they run more reliably pitch-castable. Also, Urza.

I was okay with White having Smothering Tithe. It's when we started getting all these other treasure flavor cards (pushed over the edge with Capenna) that it is getting ridiculous. It's like when GY decks started getting lots more play that hate came along. Nullrods, Stony Silence, and Collector Ouphe are gonna start getting more play in my mind. It has to. They almost had it with the Black Market Tycoon if it had just hit ALL Upkeeps. Just only effecting you makes this card unplayable unless you're in a "give away your cards" like Beamtown Bullies.

I have run Magda as a mana dork since she came out and I can say she’s great in the 99. If you get enough treasures then you use the tutor ability to go grab swords and stuff.

1:11 the problem with what Phil said is you can just sac the treasures and float the mana and then have less artifacts

Here's my favorite blue "ramp" spell. Retraced Image. U, Sorcery, Reveal a card in your hand, then put that card onto the battlefield if it has the same name as a permanent.

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

Yep Tomer is one of the few content creators that has made it more seen.

I have no faith that Wizards is going to pull back on treasures anytime soon and are about to hit a point of no return. I think Bootlegers' Stash is a problem with green, not with treasures

A little forgotten rare could help the fight against Treasure Tokens: Magnetic Mine Shock them for 2 everytime someone cracks a artifact token.

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

That's quite hilarious : D

Imo the only "salty" thing about Smothering Tithe is the 'do you pay the 2' part. Other than that it shouldn't even have gotten a salt score of 0.5. But then again, I think most cards on the salt list shouldn't be there or be way lower.

What do we do with a Dockside? You can blink it. You can clone it. Got Marchesa? Just Dethrone it. You can bounce it. You can copy it. Temporary or Permanent. You can Dredge it. Or Reanimate. Nim Deathmantles very handy. An Ode to Dockside Extortionist.

Thankfully my playgroup is often on a very similar page regarding cards like these. Dockside, Tithe and the banned fish have all seen play once and never again

I play a Magda deck. But with maskwood nexus and vehicles so I can tap my dwarves and "dwarves" without attacking. Add Xorn and Harmonic Prodigy and you get 6 treasures per tap. So you can tutor every "dragon" and win in instant speed with etb effects like basalt ravager.

I think we are good on treasures for a while unless they’d like to give mono-white more treasure-makers. White arguably has some of the best artifact synergies out of the other colors with the exception of maybe red. Smothering Tithe goes a long way though, undoubtedly.

My groups have generally run just Smothering Tithe and Revel in Riches with an occasional Dockside. Dockside clearly should be banned, but the rest are probably fine in my experience. I'd like fewer Treasure cards in the future, but right now, we're okay.

Guys, I’ve fixed treasures: Hullside Opportunist, {3} or {1}{U}, 1/1 Rogue, with Flash, and “If an artifact token would be created, put a +1/+1 counter on Hullside Opportunist instead”. You hose almost treasures specifically, and you don’t go up on ridiculous resources yourself, you just make a big dumb guy.

The only time wotc has ever seemed to pull back on anything regarding treasure was allowing white to have it be apart of its identity and decided to bend and homogenize green’s identity further to fit treasures when it had no business being green other than leaning on the broad generalization that doing something with mana=green thing which as we all learned is stupid and flawed to gate basic functions of the game to 1 Color (blue being the only real card draw color until it wasn’t being another example). All wotc cared about was that treasures are becoming more and more popular and they decided the most popular color needed more access to said hip and trendy thing too, color pie and color identity be damned.

@MCvicRPG

2 жыл бұрын

Color pie is pretty much dead. But dont worry wotc has a backup. They call it the money pie.

I think Phil should have more space. I know all that editing is time consuming, but i would love to watch him playing whatever he wants

The broken part of the broken cards isn’t that they make treasure, it’s that they make lots with little cost. The vast, vast majority of Treasure cards are just ok. I know Richard seems to think they’re all broken, but I don’t think the treasure is the broken part lol, Hullbreacher wasn’t banned because it made loads of treasures, it was because it made treasures WHILE denying your opponents card draw.

@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena

2 жыл бұрын

More like according to the RC Wheel effects are used in casual all the time thus created the need to ban hullbreacher which i find complete bullshit wheels are more so used in competitive as disruption or bun if you have Nekusar

I think the reason they moved from Gold to Treasure is to stop synergies like using Urza to tap it for blue then sacrificing for any color

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

According to another comment it's for improvise.

I play Dockside Extortionist for flavour in my Goblin Artifact deck, but I'm thinking of taking it out.

@darkrexkigntstone8773

2 жыл бұрын

Fair

I really like that treasures can provide some form of ramp to colors that don’t typically have access to a lot of it. I enjoy using low cost treasure makers in, for example, mono red decks since outside of mana rocks and rituals there arent very many other options

As a mono green player, treasures have no place in green, regardless of whether they’re broken or not. Green has so much good ramp going for it already and I don’t like WOTC trying to push the envelope on that one.

The new set dropped and treasures became such a massive problem in my playgroup that half of us just built outright anti artifact decks. The power scaling that treasures suddenly created was kind of insane. Edit: I should say that treasures was becoming an issue but this set drastically scaled that issue. Dockside and smothering tithe sucked. Old Gnawbone is unnecessary. But now everything is treasures.

Personally, I think the effect and CMC of smothering tithe is a fine. Like im glad we have the card.. the problem with it is, 3W. it should have been 1WWW and no-one would complain about it. I also think dockside should have a much higher CMC. Treasures are nice/and good ramp options for non green if its balanced right imo anyway.

Echoing Truth just gets better and better and everyone has forgotten about it. From darksteel but it's got some reprints since then in commander products. Not that I've played in a few years but it's always been a staple for me

the only thing keeping dockside from taking over our group is pricetag; some of us got it when it was printed/still cheaper and when it shows up it wins far too often

@aorusaki

2 жыл бұрын

And then people say "jUst pLay moRe remOVal" even though it's an etb trigger and if you DON'T so happen to counter spell it right there you lose. It's not fun having to play mono counterspells or stax pieces to deal with all this crap

I like treasures: dockside is a bit on the "not so okay" side of the treasure making. The rest of the cards are fine. I do have a Dargo//Szat ( no infinite combos) Partner deck without most of the broken treasure cards and its okay.

Take a shot every time Richard says “Right?”

2 ways to fix treasures, food, clues, blood, ....: either 1) make them enter tapped or 2) make them not be artifacts. create a new permanent-type for them like "consumable"

Our group has one Prosper player. Outside of him, I think there's like... a single Prismari Command that makes it regularly.

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

Nearly everyone at my lgs thinks artifacts are boring, repetitive, and unoriginal so the only artifact decks I see are brudiclad and prosper and that's only every few months.

I dont see treasure as much as everyone online seems to. (Outside when I play my Prosper deck..) but my playgroup doesn't play Smothering Tithe or Dockside (b/c of price) I really don't have issues with treasures at all.

My Ich-Tekik/Malcom deck taught me treasures are strong, partner is strong, and Ich-Tekik loves facing other treasure decks

The price of Dockside has really had an effect to be honest. As much as people cry about how it needs a reprint, it's price is the only thing keeping it from being jammed in every commander deck. A reprint would most likely necessitate a ban as it would bring the worst part about treasures more into public focus.

My play group has had a pretty solid power creep, but it’s mostly tied to a massive spike joining the squad. My decks are like 50-100 bucks more since (but they also do sweeter things lol)

We need a consistent banlist, the primeval titan vs dockside extortist is an egregious example

I really love the idea of treasures coming in tapped. I think that fixes the whole archetype and gives them a drawback that both food, and clues have. It’s absurd that treasures don’t have a drawback and they are very prevalent in my playgroup just to answer the question.

Brother's war will have power stone tokens. Mark my words, spell will be making mana rocks in that set.

One of my theoretical solutions for Treasures would be having them be typeless tokens that have an ability that permits them to be targeted and destroyed as though they were any permanent

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

That might make them more broken I'm just happy they ain't as broken as gold tokens.

@shinsua_

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingfuzzy2 I'm just tired of the incidental artifact support, and I don't think making a treasure token that's an enchantment helps at all either

@kingfuzzy2

2 жыл бұрын

Makes a lot of sense.

I feel like Treasures were one of those "good in theory" mechanics to help colors that have difficulty ramping. Unfortunately players figured out how to break them. And Green now has ways to make Treasures which feels like such a large color pie break. I do like things like the Black Market Tycoon that punishes you for having a lot of Treasures, but it needs to be in more colors and be able to affect other players.

Hey! I got to the end! I'm awesome. Thank you Tomer :)

I think to improve clues if you sacrifice more of them, you get a reduced cost. Flavorwise, it shows that the more clues you have the faster it is to get to the solution. For example, 1 clue @2cmc, 2 clue @ 4cmc, 3 clue @ 5cmc Or, create a new token called the "Solution token". Sacrifice 4 clues to create this token. Tap and sacrifice solution token to draw 4 cards.

treassures can be fix with an colorless artifact that cost 2 mana and say: whenever a treassure is used to cast or activate an ability the controller of that source lose life equal to the manacost of the card used. so if i worded it right, it means per treassure you lose that life. kinda like manabarbs ^^ for treassures itself... well the misstake allready happened. If they ever get an "rework" they better enter tapped.

I see treasure all the time when I play. I have started running Yasharn in my green/white decks to mess with both treasure and aristocrat decks

Blue needs spells and effects that destroy treasures and or artifacts to add mana to your mana pool

if treasures were so broken, It would have happen in strixhaven, that has a lot of treasure making cards. it's dokside and tithes fault that it feels that way

All they had to do was make hullbreacher, tithe, and dock side cost 4 ( of their color) and the cards would be considerably less salty but still played

Dashing my hopes for Toms return with that command clash alumni remark

Imagine a timeline where Clues were pushed or Food. New Capenna actually could have had all of them

I think Prosper, Tome Bound is the most balanced treasure centric card imo. Treasures should be there to help provide temporary ramp for colors that usually lack ramp capabilities and as a reward for playing with somewhat janky mechanics (like impulsive card draw). Cards that give you treasures for free are kinda broken and boring. Things like Dockside, Smothering Tithe, ect. So that's where I stand. Treasures should be used as rewards for playing smartly around jank mechanics and be the ramp options for colors that usually lack ramp.

I'm only 30 minutes in so far so maybe I'm jumping the gun, but what if they changed treasures to say "sacrifice at the beginning of your next end step" that way things that produced treasure on your opponents tirns worked but they would only store up for 1 turn cycle. Thoughts?