Ho-lee nuts

@andersdenkend

9 жыл бұрын

Lazy Game Reviews Hah, glad you saw it already. Immediately thought of you..

@pigpenpete

9 жыл бұрын

Lazy Game Reviews If there's anyone out there who can get this running on a real system, it has to be you!

@Dant2142

9 жыл бұрын

pigpenthegreat IIRC, he's got a 5150 and a IBM CGA card, he could get it working...

@RetroSwim

9 жыл бұрын

pigpen This was run on a real system and captured via composite. The demo won't run in emulators right now. It breaks them all, even DOSBox and PCem.

@MISSCHAMPAGNE

8 жыл бұрын

Seeing that you commented on this made me so happy lol

Being a music person, I'm most impressed with the shit you can do with the one-voice beeper.

@retrogamer33

8 жыл бұрын

+agogobell28 Spectrum 48K has a one voice beeper and that can produce some amazing music, Chronos is incredible

@robsku1

7 жыл бұрын

+retrogamer33 on PC beeper only square waveform is supported, and only control for output is setting the frequency, and of course you can silence it (if you don't it plays at that frequency until some other program changes frequency, or until powering down - I'm assuming spectrum had a bit more of ways to control it?

@retrogamer33

7 жыл бұрын

I know that, I was just pointing out that the Spectrum beeper can produce some amazing music

@robsku1

7 жыл бұрын

I was not certain about your knowledge of limitations of PC speaker, so I wrote that tiny explanation just in case, as I was really interested to ask about the assumed differences between it spectrum 48k's sound generation. Like was the speaker just directly accessed and thus software controlled, or was there, as I would guess, a sound chip that controlled the speaker, and software must access and controls the sound chip - exactly like with C-64, but different features, limitations and capabilities? If there's link(s) to information of this, I'd love to read... Is there different waveforms? Can you set attack, sustain & decay to do different "instrument sounds", or use filters like hi/lo-cut, etc. and all that information of how was the nice sounds of it's single tone speaker (sorry if that was incorrect, can't recheck while commenting on phone) made? If you do reply with any kind of information, I'll be very thankful :)

@mvilcans

7 жыл бұрын

Let me chip in here. While the PC's timer chip could be programmed to output a square wave to the speaker, the Speccy's speaker could only be controlled by the CPU directly. Producing a square wave took most of the CPU power. And to produce different frequencies, you had to count CPU cycles to flip the bit at the right time.

If an 8088 can do this, then the singularity can begin on a Haswell.

@BenM64

6 жыл бұрын

If the singularity can begin on a Haswell, what d'you think could happen on a Coffee Lake?

@zangetsu6638

5 жыл бұрын

you'd have up to a 14% bigger singularity on the Coffee Lake, duh

@drummonkeystuffuk1875

5 жыл бұрын

@@zangetsu6638 It can bloi the kettle for me - and make the drink :)

@pdjames1729

5 жыл бұрын

@@stashymane yes, that's the joke you missed xx

@retrogamer33

4 жыл бұрын

@@BenM64 Ryzen threadripper comes along and stomps on Coffee Lake's crapness

Incredible. I watched this quite gleefully.

@szabolcsmate5254

3 жыл бұрын

@Brad Sanchez I see what you mean, but back then they didn't have cross compilers running on machines 30 years from the future. ;) And they didn't have google, stack overflow, nor github. Imagine trying to do this if you have to go to the library just to get a book about the 8088 instruction set. ;)

@szabolcsmate5254

3 жыл бұрын

@Brad Sanchez haha, sure. And what we had much more of in the '80s: time.

1024 CGA colors? 1024 CGA COLORS!?!? GREAT DOUBLEJUMPING SCOTT *runs around like a maniac*

@valenrn8657

3 жыл бұрын

CGA composite color blending i.e. uses composite video's blur design flaw to mix neighboring pixels to create additional colors.

@TheDrunkenMug

2 жыл бұрын

@@valenrn8657I guess this is one of those cases where you say; *It's not a bug, it's a feature !*

Wow. From a technical standpoint, absolutely mindboggling that you achieved that on an 8088... puts Second Reality on my 486 to shame...

@ManOnBrokenHorse

4 жыл бұрын

2nd reality was still a very decent demo :) *old love never dies*

@ChickenPermissionOG

Жыл бұрын

probably eating a lot of clocks.

@clementpoon120

11 күн бұрын

as someone who's currently writing a demo for an 8088 based system that doesn't even have system memory wait states i aspire to be magicians like them

I thought this was awesome, got to the end and thought 'they cheated and were playing that MOD through a soundcard!' Then I realized they were pumping that through the PC speaker. That's some serious black magic, and makes the whole thing even more awesome!

@robsku1

7 жыл бұрын

oh, I remember noticing somewhere around 1995 a PC version of some tracker (can't remember the name, maybe impulse tracker 2), had among the usual ones at time, sound blaster 16, gravis ultrasound, etc., also support for passing through PC beeper - it sounds awful when compared to actual PCM, but amazing for something coming out of just PC speaker :)

@JimLeonard

7 жыл бұрын

And those trackers had the advantage of running on systems 5-10 times faster.

@robsku1

7 жыл бұрын

+Jim Leonard Indeed, I should've chosen my words more carefully as I didn't mean to say this wasn't anything new nor special because I saw a tracker on Pentium 75MHz do it :) My point was the black magic wasn't playing MOD through PC beeper in itself, but doing it on 8088, and not only that, but doing it while also simultaneously doing all this very hardware intense (and impossible by technical specs ;D) stuff, and as if that magic's not black enough, it's (the music) played in sync with that "other stuff". So I really meant to point the attention of readers to what's really amazing about the player, just forgot to write anything, except that it wasn't that playing PCM audio through beeper was something new, without including what it is that made doing it here very special :) Sorry bout that.

@Roxor128

3 жыл бұрын

@@robsku1 Fast Tracker II is the one you're thinking of. I just checked in DOSBox and v2.09 supports Ultrasound, Sound Blaster, Soundplayer, and PC Speaker in either single-bit or pulse mod modes. Of the speaker modes, pulse-mod sounds the best, but is on the quiet side, while the single-bit mode sounds terrible, but is a lot louder. Soundplayer is just an 8-bit LPT DAC, ala the Covox Speech Thing. Sounds almost as good as the sound cards, aside from a slight crackle that doesn't show up with the cards and gets worse when you move the mouse.

@robsku1

3 жыл бұрын

@@Roxor128 thanks for the informative response :)

Computing technology grew so fast that software had to get tugged along with it, not promoting things like optimization and learning to fully utilize what was available. Makes me wonder how much we missed out on because some things just didn't get experimented with and optimized to its full potential, or even near it, before we were onto a new chip or hardware standard. What is even more interesting to consider, where would we be now if we could have had those software advancements with earlier hardware. I love that there is a community out there still programing on these classic platforms. Great demo.

@elmariachi5133

6 жыл бұрын

For getting a slight impression, on what we are missing, because of the lack of optimization I recommend you watch or try yourself '.kkrieger' from '.theprodukkt'. (Both written correctly!) While it doesn't look too impressive nowadays, it was back then in 2002, because it's an ego shooter using just 64KByte.

@FeelingShred

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah optimization is heavily missed. That's why I mostly play old games (although some make CPU usage max out one of the cores for no reason) I was taking a look at Rocket League, an interesting new game multiplayer only and a few maps. It asks for 7GB of disk space. Why why why

@BruceCarbonLakeriver

3 жыл бұрын

@@FeelingShred Disk space? Mostly b/c of textures and those ain't able to "optimize"-away. But I fully agree on the general mindset of optimized code in general. I wouldn't even want to know how many ressources win10 is throwing out of the window just for getting stamped OK if it is halfway stable merged bunch of code... not mention some gaming engines (cry engine e.g.) which is more like turning your pc into a heater than gettin it to an efficient realtime rendering......

@mysim35

2 ай бұрын

Imagine coming back to old machines in the future and blowing people's mind

This is truly masterful, I don't know what to be more impressed by, the multicolour CGA graphics or the digital sound coming out the PC beeper at the end. It's all amazing. I remember hearing a 4 channel mod file played for the first time out the speaker of my 386PC and even then I was totally blown away.

@matsv201

Жыл бұрын

Well in theory it was always posssible. Just shift the wave file 2 bits right, ad all 4 files together, snip it to 8 bit then just post it to the PC speaker buffert (if i remember corectly the beeper buffert is 10 byte long. And if you do it in say 8Hz that is pretty typical, you have to post it 800 times a second... that is doable.. but.. well your code have to be very quick to interupt.

Imagine popping in a time machine to the guys designing/running CGA hardware for the first time and showing them this. :)

@mouse059

3 жыл бұрын

They wouldn't get the back to the future reference, lol

SICK! If everybody would take such care in squeezing out what's possible in the hardware, we wouldn’t be needing new chips since 1996

@ChickenPermissionOG

Жыл бұрын

its a demo not feasible in a game.

@matsv201

9 ай бұрын

@@ChickenPermissionOG I don´t quite agree. There are several things here that could be ported over to games just fine

@monsieurouxx

7 ай бұрын

@@ChickenPermissionOG OK but that's not what he was saying.

@grizzomble

7 ай бұрын

From now on I am doing all my LLM training and 4k raytracing on a Pentium Pro

It's absolutely mindblowing what some people can still do with this old hardware. Fantastic.

I come from 8 bit guy and your contributions with Planet X3, Greetings from Venezuela.

IBM PC Master Race

@KillThad

7 жыл бұрын

neoqueto Filthy Commodore peasants

@Parvex

4 жыл бұрын

@Neb6 No. The Atari 800 can only display 2 colors in 320 x 196 pixels resolution.

@xXTheoLinuxXx

4 жыл бұрын

@@Parvex if you use the standard modus, yes you are right. But like this demo is full of tricks, the Atari has his own box of tricks (DLI for example). None the less, I don't care which was the better computer or so. I really enjoy to see what people nowaday can do with old hardware and doing things we never dreamed of back in the day :)

Absolutely incredible, you guys did a fantastic job and deserved to win. Really really cool!

@JimLeonard

8 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Came here after reading about it in Planet X3’s manual and DAMN! This is impressive... all of it. Having started my computing days with an 8088 and CGA, this looks like wizardry. Never knew this was possible... more please!

now that's crazy impressive Each section made my jaw drop more and more. The 1k colors part is super cool in particular, getting that out of CGA.

You can teach an old dog new tricks. Very impressive and well-deserved pat on the back!

Hello! I came here to talk about the Demoscene Your team and other Demoscene groups did an awesome job! I'm a very young adult and your demos made me really love the Demoscene and the Retrogaming!! I really congrats you and everyone who contributed to the Demoscene. Your work is amazing and the music keeps in my head and will keep forever! I am amazed by the technical aspect of the demos and machines, I really would like to code some programs one day, even if I don't even know how to code a simple program for now. But I got a lot of decades to go ahead! Thank you again for your team and every Demoscene groups for your amazing work. I hope that you inspired a lot of people other than me! ❤

The IBM PC has been officially pimped.

I cannot stop watching this, it’s so beautiful. I love this, good work.

Are these the best graphics and sounds ever to come out of an original PC? Mind bending work, kind of unbelievable.

Congrats guys! It's amazing what you managed to get out of the good ol' PC. The graphics in particular are friggin' killer!

Saw this live at Revision and it blew my mind, but more than anything it's the music that sticks with me. So funky!

great experience watching this... true hardware exploration, refreshing muzak, and superb gfx to sort you out - Executed with attitude and style.. cheers!

Having thoroughly enjoyed my 4.77MHz with CGA in the 80's, I absolutely enjoyed this. Well done.

unbelievable!!! I've no more words for such a mastery!!! please keep going, really looking forward to see those techniques applied to real programs/games, and difficult to hope for more but... who knows!!! BRAVI!!!!!

Jaw droppingly _amazing_. Just _OMG_. I can't believe it, but it's there. Right before my eyes.

*gobsmacked* This is easily one of the most interesting and well-put together demos I've seen in ages! Grats to the whole team on this impressive piece of code wizardry! =^.^=

I don't normally comment on videos etc, but, holy shit.. Totally mind blown.. I wish I still had out old IBM so I could boot this baby up.. I may have to go an hunt one down just to try it... If I saw this back when I was a young'un... Jeez

Wow, truly inspiring work!

I might have to buy a ibm cga card and try this on my pc now, damn this is well done

@robsku1

7 жыл бұрын

I wonder what would I need to connect the CGA to generic CRT monitor or TV (preferably, finding a CGA monitor would be too hard; I like collecting, but I'm barely an amateur, I rarely hunt for much, like with Macintosh SE/30 I got free from neighbour but was too late to save the keyboard from garbage dump, and I haven't even tried to find one), with antenna, SCART and... oh, composite, Of my old TV works. I have no idea, but what about flat screen tv, does that produce the same colour "errors"? And it has no composite, at least not separately, but one source it can use is "component", which has several similar connectors, and I've heard that it can support various similar systems that don't have all of the connectors, but even if that's true, I guess that has naught to do with composite? Then what about the old way of using tv's analog antenna connector, it was the default for c-64 and most 80's micro computers, and for Amiga 500 you could buy a device between it and tv to connect it via antenna connector, which was probably so used here because Finnish tv's didn't nearly always have composite, and SCART wasn't yet in everyone's tv's. So is there a converter from composite to tv antenna (PAL) that's cheap, and does it no bad to the colours? Other ways? Yes, the old TV has composite, but I'm unsure if it works.

@Scalibq

7 жыл бұрын

You basically just need a bit of luck. Most TVs have composite in either via cinch connectors or scart (or both). Quite a few TVs are dual-standard, so they can take both NTSC or PAL composite signals. You probably have more luck with an LCD TV than with CRT, because it's easier to run an LCD at both 50 Hz and 60 Hz than it is for a CRT. For what it's worth, I used a Samsung LCD TV during development of this demo (it's a 'PAL' TV, I'm in a PAL country). NTSC artifacts work fine on it. On some TVs it will work, on others it won't. I have a newer Samsung LCD TV that only takes PAL composite. By the way, there was an optional antenna modulator module that can be plugged onto a CGA card, but I think they're extremely rare. And then you need an NTSC-compatible TV tuner, so you really do need an 'NTSC' TV, as most TVs only have a single TV tuner on board.

@greenaum

4 жыл бұрын

AIUI you'd need a complete IBM PC 5150. The timing is exact in this, so it only works on the actual PC. That's why I'm watching it on KZread and not DOSBOX or the like. @robsku, any composite monitor would be suitable for CGA's composite artefact-colour mode. All monitors used to be composite, way back when. The popular Commodore monitor, forget which one, supports it. Actually any TV over a certain age, too, supports composite through the "video" port, the single RCA connector. If IBM hadn't chosen a resolution of 320, an exact multiple of the NTSC colour clock, and used a cheap crap NTSC colour modulator, then that wouldn't be possible. And many of the old CGA games, which took advantage of artefacting, would have been stuck in utterly abominable cyan-on-bloody-magenta. Honestly no idea why IBM chose those two awful colours. Or why games programmers used that palette. It has black and white in it, but the other 2 colours are painful to see. The alternative was blue, green, red, yellow, much more soothing. Or even a third scheme with a bit of a combo.

@greenaum

4 жыл бұрын

@@Scalibq Most modern TVs will tune in the American VHF fine, as well as the UHF other countries use. They're all made in the same factories in China now, and it's cheaper to just put a universal tuner in, and control it with software. Finding an IBM CGA RF modulator will be almost impossible. But I can't think why a generic one wouldn't be fine. Give it 5V from the keyboard port or a disk drive power cable. That's if your TV doesn't support composite, which it probably does.

Awesome! Who would've thought such old hardware is capable of _this_ sort of craziness?! If only today's programmers could be as super-talented and competent as these guys; then we'd have much better optimisation, more competently-programmed games and fewer cheap console ports, for a start. Amazing work!

How is this running on a CGA card!? And the end music? Witchcraft!

@ryanpenrod1859

5 жыл бұрын

I don't think the end music is actually running on the one-voice beeper

@redpheonix1000

5 жыл бұрын

@@ryanpenrod1859 It most definitely is. It's just using a technique called PWM to produce much more complex sounds at the expense of eating up 99% of the cpu's cycles. It was also used by music trackers such as FastTracker 2. A few games on the ZX Spectrum did it too, although the speccy was more limited on memory

@ryanpenrod1859

5 жыл бұрын

@@redpheonix1000 Cool, thanks for clarifying. That's what I meant I suppose, it is using direct CPU modulation instead of the usual timer-driven speaker inputs, aka square waves I guess.

@otesunki

4 жыл бұрын

CGA: 1024 colors VGA: 256 colors CGA Is officially better than VGA EDIT: I read about how it worked: CGA Composite/Artifacting:16 col CGA Text mode w/ Max scanlines=1:16 col CGA Pallete register:4 col 16 x 16 x 4 = 1024 col

@greenaum

4 жыл бұрын

@@ryanpenrod1859 It's using square waves, except instead of a timer chip controlling their length, it's done with software instead. The CPU can still only switch the speaker on or off. But with clever techniques and some physics, you can PWM several channels of "analogue" sound through it. Still only 1 and 0 though. Actually modern CD players (if they still make those) use the same technique in their DACs, at least the "1-bit" ones do. Just flipping one bit, very fast, several MHz for a 44.1KHz signal. The sound is better, and it doesn't rely on carefully set-up analogue circuits like an ordinary DAC. Delta-sigma is one method.

Wow! Insanely well made!

Wow! Its fun to see renewed interest in NTSC artifact video modes on multiple platforms at roughly the same time (See Bill Buckel's BMP2DHGR on the Apple II) . That blurry composite video we all used to complain about was capable of doing something useful all these years!

Wow, amazing job. Great work.

Awesome music! Totally crazy effects!

Read through the full explanation of how each part of this works. Understood most of it. _Still_ think that it's essentially voodoo. Amazing work.

I applaud them and their dedication to their craft.

Very impressive ! Excellent work !!

This is beyond awesome !

OH WOW well done, great work!

2:23 Nice reference, it reads like something in a dream! Very impressive demo... wow!

Stunning artwork, exceptional programming feat. Please let us know more about the technical background of all the hacks.

Great work!

Nicely done! :o

Jeezus! i had a CGA 8088 for years and thought i know what a CGA/XT can do.... /bow to the king

Wow, this is amazing :O

If an 8088 with CGA can do this, then my old crappy laptop with Intel Celeron N3050 laptop with Intel HD Graphics can run a demo with real life graphics, raytracing at 60FPS!!!

Dat Chiptune. If they can do something like that on old hardware, what can they do on modern ones? in b4 Tron.

@simplyrenirambus2982

5 жыл бұрын

That's the power of Jake "VIRT" Kaufman and others, man!

Jim you are true computer enthusiast, spending all this time on a 40 yo pc, doing what the og programmers should have been doing back in the day.

I got a commodore pc-10 just to get the message:"thank you for playing on original hardware" ;)

@JimLeonard

Жыл бұрын

Nice :-)

HOLY SHIT! THIS IS BRUTAL!

Difficult to believe. I am suitably impressed.

Amazing!

WOW!! CGA pulled ti it's limits! Amazed!

This is INSANE!

Someday in the future a group will unlock the hidden potential of the Voodoo cards : ray tracing support in 4K...

amazing wish i had an IBM PC

>This demo breaks all emulators :-) Remember this was said nearly 5 years ago.

@JimLeonard

4 жыл бұрын

Yes... and it took our emulator core in order for 86box to run it correctly ;-)

Hat down to you sirs.

Impressionante!

bravoooo amazing

incredible

goosebumps.

Mind blown, wow.

amazed !

Possibly the greatest technology hack ever.

Yeah, just give them a few more days and they do a 256 color demo on Hercules. With a green monitor. With stereo sound from the PC speaker!😂

This is true hacking at its finest. Amazing work!

What amazing work. Am I seeing this right, the pentagon's movements kind of make the interrupts for the beeper control visible?

@JimLeonard

6 жыл бұрын

ez45 Nope, the music in that section is updating at 60Hz.

hitz so hard

And all this time I thought 64 colors on EGA was a feat. Impressive!

Mind officially blown

На досбоксе на последнем кадре (авторы) - адское мерцание. Вот как вы достигаете много цветов!

Just watched this with my dad, at 2:34 and 4:38 his jaw dropped and hit the floor.

@trof4904

3 жыл бұрын

I was not expecting you to heart this holy frick thank you! This demo is my personal favorite!

This is black magic voodoo of the highest order.

Impossible! You're not supposed to do that! Well done!

it a very cool!

Now I need to get a CGA card my XT, it only has VGA now, no composite out :(

MIND. BLOOOOOOOWWWWWNNN.

The music should be available on streaming platforms. I only open the video now to listen to the music.

Is the module file being used in the credits published anywhere? Getting all protracker effects at a decent sampling rate is extraordinary work.

@andrewmjenner

9 жыл бұрын

Lysergesaure1 It's now online and linked to from the technical blog post about the MOD player at www.reenigne.org/blog/8088-pc-speaker-mod-player-how-its-done/ .

@Lysergesaure1

9 жыл бұрын

Thanks! You are awesome!

Greetings from Reddit /r/retrobattlestations!! Prepare to be CRUSHED.

Classic computer effect's with picture art-machine also very change background scene and position image in demo is positive nice for culture eyes for view, for hear sound music. 🎞👏😇😯😑⌨

Holy Cow

Consider. Me. Stunned.

I think Team Dai-Gurren found some new members, 'cause they just did the impossible.

Holly ⭐️!?⭐️

I read the technical details behind how this were created, and admittedly a lot of it is beyond me, but is still a fascinating read. From what I understood, having it display 256 and 512 colors via composite is not much more computationally-intensive than 16 colors, so animations are still possible in those modes (whereas 1024 colors is only feasible for static images due to high CPU use). Could this concept be used to improve the video playback of your 8088 Domination program from its current 16 colors?

@JimLeonard

7 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately no, because the use of 256 and 512 colors requires operating in 80-column text mode, and true CGA cards produce "snow" when you write directly to video RAM in 80-col text mode. So while it would work, there would be high-frequency noise all over the place, ruining the effect.

@BrendonGreenNZL

6 жыл бұрын

Jim Leonard you are amazing, Trixter.

VOGONS crew, represent! :-D

that's history

I need the end credits tune in a long version!

This is the same series of cpu that power the raiden ar arcade machines though. Raiden uses an nec v30, which is a revision of v20 cpu, which is just a 8080+8088 in one. Also, the wonderswan uses a v20 cpu as well. The gameboy uses a customized and enhanced variant of the 8080 cpu which is labeled as sm83

@JimLeonard

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, but all of those systems have additional graphics and sound support chips. All of the graphics in this demo are created by the CPU manipulating individual bytes of video memory. No sprite hardware, no tiles, no redefinable character sets...

@mariowario5945

2 жыл бұрын

@@JimLeonard yeah, that is impressive, but this cpu is really powerful. The zx spectrum didnt have any support chips for graphics either and that has a weaker z80 cpu

@JimLeonard

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariowario5945 Which is why demos on the ZX Spectrum are similarly impressive. (To be fair, ZX Spectrum has a redefinable character set ;-)

@mariowario5945

2 жыл бұрын

@@JimLeonard what's the most impressive zx spectrum demo you've seen?

Stay Forever Podcast sent me.

:-O .... *speechless*

@GGShinobi77

9 жыл бұрын

***** that's awesome dudes!!!

holy shit

Great optimization. How well will the demo run on a luggable IBM 5155?

@JimLeonard

4 жыл бұрын

Perfectly,in fact I demonstrated it at vintage computer festival Midwest the same year on such a system. The CGA card in a 5155 is a newer style, so you have to pick newer style in the calibration screen, but other than that it works perfectly.

Scroll back up, you're missing out

@pixelcrunch300

5 жыл бұрын

Or maybe not! The music alone is badass!