I believe that the FN 45 has a 15 round mag.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I think your right, I checked FNs website, and they are optic ready! Thanks!

@keithgraham9547

Жыл бұрын

If you have a modern 45LC that can handle the pressure, you can buy hard cast 325 grain bear loads that should do it. And, of course, Glock 45acp's take a 13-round mag, and one up the pipe, with the right hardball, isn't bad, as others have listed some ammo that is spicy.

@Brickbossman

Жыл бұрын

Yes it does,I have one that I carry daily

@walterdanielswalter.r.dani7628

Жыл бұрын

The Para-Ordnance P-14 < 14rd magazine plus one in the chamber

@owentorres1203

Жыл бұрын

Remington also makes a 45 that comes with two 15-round double-stack magazine

And to think the mountain men used to use 50 caliber, black powder, flintlock with one shot capacity, and one shot pistol behind it for back up to hunt grizzly bear almost to extinction! Amazing that they survived at all

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I have read several books on the Lewis and Clark expedition. Their rifles just were not enough gun. Several times they had 3-4 shooters fire at the same time and held 2-3 back for follow up shots. They were amazed how many shots Grizzlies (they called them "white Bears") took, compared to the eastern Black Bears. Great reading! Appreciate you watching.

@blueduck9409

Жыл бұрын

A big knife, or hatchet was usually that last line of defense after shooting a bear with a flint lock rifle and pistol

@factsnotfeelingssendit5961

Жыл бұрын

It's totally different when you're hunting something or getting attacked. When the bear has the element of surprise

@jeffreyhall838

3 ай бұрын

And A bunch of those old mountain men paid with their lives too

@aaronwilcox6417

2 ай бұрын

One thing to remeber about the Corps of Discovery is that their projectiles were using just soft lead balls for projectiles. Today we have mono metal and hard cast tempered bullets with wide meplats. Even a modern pistol running 900-950 fps can penetrate a lot using those projectiles.

Underwood ammo makes an excellent +p 45acp FMJ and it has a velocity of a little over 1000 feet per second. A round like that will penetrate very deep into a large bear and will rip through vital organs or penetrate the face and head area. I carry this load in my 1911 at all times for self defense.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that is probably the best ammo for Bear defense in 45 auto. Appreciate you watching.

@garymckee8857

Жыл бұрын

I will remember that statistic , I always use Winchester ammo, but if it's better buy it.

@robertdavenport856

Жыл бұрын

The Winchester white box USA 230gr FMJ has a velocity of around 830 FPS and also has excellent penetration on black bears.

@tonioyendis4464

Жыл бұрын

Underwood also has a hard-cast round that will penetrate hide & bones without fragmentation.

@robertdavenport856

Жыл бұрын

Yes that hard cast bullet underwood makes is also an excellent +p 45acp round!

An old gunsmith in my area cut 308 casings down to 45 length and hot loaded them with hard cast wadcutters. He serviced an area of British Columbia with a big grizzly population. He told me one of his customers reported having a round go right through a bear’s front quarter. He only loaded the rounds for people he knew had an adequate firearm

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that is sort of like a 45 Super. Have to be very careful with ammo like that. Thanks for watching!

@motorgearhead

Жыл бұрын

I’ve heard similar origin story associated with 45 Rowland level loads. Turns out all you really need is a fully supported chamber. Modern brass is strong enough to handle super plus pressure loads.

@spankthemonkey3437

Жыл бұрын

​@@30-06john yeah it would probably be wise to replace barrel after having to use it a time or two 🤣

@leveractiongypsy1848

Жыл бұрын

I believe thats the 45-08 and I think it eventually turned into 460 Rowland. I've been told by Starline the only difference in their 45 Super brass and their 460 Rowland is length so the 460 Rowland cant be chambered in a 45ACP gun. Both rounds can be shot with a properly setup 1911. I think if you had 10mm, 460 Rowland, 45 Super or even 45 ACP +P your at a good level of power for a semi auto handgun

@motorgearhead

Жыл бұрын

@@leveractiongypsy1848 - I agree with the assessment of 45 super brass being the equivalent of 460 Roland in pressure potential. I have a 70 series colt that I have setup to handle 460 Rowland level loads. I have been surprised to find that standard 45 ACP brass easily handle 45 super and above pressure loads as long as a fully supported chamber is used. Brass strength seems much more critical if using a barrel that doesn’t support the case head. That’s where the “Glock smile” in 10mm came into general recognition. Using Quickload internal ballistics and correlating actual velocities to QL modeling, I have routinely loaded standard ACP brass to 30,000 psi without issue. I will push 185 grain slugs to 1500 fps & 38-40Kpsi with out any issue. However I am a little more conservative when loading bullet weights of 250 grains and above.

I carry a 10mm with 14+1 rounds. Loaded with Underwood 220 gr flatnose hardcast, and Lehigh Penetrators 140 gr Solid Copper. Both of these deliver about 725 ft lbs energy at the muzzle. I once encountered an gentleman and his wife on the trail and noticed his sidearm. I asked what he was carrying and he replied “45acp with Frangible ammo”. I proceeded to have a long conversation with him about penetration and bullets for expansion in soft body critters.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, some people think that it doesn't matter! Appreciate you watching.

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

Have you ever had to use it when the chips are down

@plnbdy

Жыл бұрын

I carry 7 arx (frangible) atop 9 135 gr underwood noslers 10mm.... for 2 legged situations... 45 fmj will be plenty for a bear of continental proportion.... Coastal brown bear I might want a bit more... Like a 10mm.... with some sort of solid........but REALLY you want a long gun....

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

@@plnbdy first mistake frangible bullets good luck if you have to stop a real grizzly

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

@@plnbdy how many have you killed

The ParaOrdnance P14-45 originally came with 13 shot mags. Later they were shipped with 14 shot mags. 15 shot mags are also available

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a few viewers let me know about the Para. Thanks for watching!

@308driver

Жыл бұрын

Yup got one. Never wanna have to protect my self from a grizzly, but I wouldn't wanna be the grizz either...

@bobsum1745

Жыл бұрын

It was probably 14 bullet mag plus one in chamber. That's what I carry.

@richardclingempeel6111

Жыл бұрын

I have the para 16/40 LDA, and I wouldn't want to try. Love the para ordnance.

@ntvtexan5015

Жыл бұрын

I have 2 of the ParaOrdnance P14-45's "Gun Rights" models, each with 4 20-Round mags on top of the original mags ! They do use a Double-Stack mag design.

You have presented an excellent video. No difficult information or statistics to have to follow. Just enough and very well paced. Interesting stories and important information here. you have done a great job and I hope to follow more of your videos. Thank you it is very gratifying to find somebody who understands and has good production value to present their knowledge to others in a way that I can absorb it. That takes talent👍🏼

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words!

I've been hunting deer & elk in the western US for over 20 years, usually by myself. I've always carried a .45 for protection and sometimes being in Arizona, a 9mm. A rifle will get leaned against a tree or layed down on a log or bush away from where you are working to gut and quarter your animal. Never gave it a second thought about being under gunned until.... I was just taking a leisurely horseback ride outside Cody Wyoming near the Park boundry when I meet a grizzly on the trail. My first thought was oh crap, I hope my horse doesn’t dump me and my second was, this .45acp wasn't enough gun. Bought a 44Mag when I got home. Today, when in Alaska or known grizzly territory, I carry that 44 mag or a 10mm. Ammo selection in any caliber is super important. Ya don't use #9 shot for waterfowl nor should you use expanding hollow points made for 2 leggeded predators for bears. Ball or hardcast and I prefer hardcast. 45acp hardcast is definitely a good bear round compared to .45acp hollowpoints or other jacketed types. I just believed based on my training, education, and experience, the .45acp is a bit on the light side for bear protection. Will it work? Yup if the God's are on your side that day. 10mm in Alaska versus big bore revolvers. A 10mm is no 460 or 454, or 500. It just ain't! But the compromise between the semiauto and big bore revolver is fire power and weight. 15 or more rounds of hardcast 10mm with relatively easy follow up shots versus 6 shots of literal hand cannons and horrible follow up shot capabilities. I know alot of Alaskans who carry big bores because at best you'll get two shots off before a brown bear is on you so you better make sure those 1 or 2 shots hurt them quick. Many said you can jam a revolver into a bear and still fire while a semi auto will go out of battery. That's one approach and if it works, good for them. I prefer the 10mm because it does hit hard, multiple shot capabilities, reduced weight while carrying, and lower recoil for more follow up shots. In all cases, being able to move and shoot is highly valuable, just like against a human predator. Never had a bad bear encounter but when speaking of Northern parts of North America and Europe, gosh dang moose. Now those buggers injure and kill.more people every year than bears. I have been charged by Moose and it plain out sucks. As such, I have more of a fear from.moose than I do bear attacks. Wolves generally don't bother people but its definitely heart pounding to see one in the woodline 30 yards away standing there looking at ya! Best of luck and remember, the difference between grizzly bear scat and black bear scat is grizzly bear scat has bear bells in it!

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a handgun is always on the person, as opposed to a rifle is set down for field dressing game. Some shooters just don't want to buy a 10mm and want to use their 45 auto. I have talked to several. One reason the 10mm got real popular is that revolvers priced themselves out of the market. Remember, the 10mm almost died 20 years ago or so. If a manufacturer offered a double action 44 mag the same price as a Glock 10mm, the 10mm may have become a niche cartridge. There are many animals that one needs to be aware of, even feral dog packs. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and watching!

@haroldenglish943

Жыл бұрын

@30-06john You bring a very relevant point, the cost of revolvers. That 44mag I have is a Ruger Red Hawk 5" barrel. I bought it used for $500 bucks. Man, between cost of ammo or reloading components and cost of new revolvers, I can see why semiautos are an attractive alternative. BTW, I bought my first 10mm in August 1993 upon returning from a 1 year tour in Korea, a Springfield 1911...The Omega. Its almost always been a safe queen. 99% of the time my daily carry is a Ruger security 6 .357 or Springfield 1911 .45acp Custom Loaded. My belief: If you can't get it done with a .357 or .45acp a) it don't need shot b) you're in way over your head So with that, my Wyoming grizzly experience proved "b." I was in over my head. Lol Being up in Delta Junction, don't have nearly the bear population folks along the coast do so encounters are far and few in-between.

@danwolf307

Жыл бұрын

Grizzly scat also smells like pepper, that's half the joke!

@GeorgiaBoy1961

Жыл бұрын

@ Harold English - That encounter on the trail with a grizzly must have been heart-stopping! I've been around bears in the wild - but black bears and not grizzlies. I ran into them as a young cat doing forestry work up in N. Minnesota and S. Canada. The thing most people don't get is how fast an adult bear can cover ground, even one weighing 500-600 lbs. (which is large for a black bear), and how well they can climb. One night a friend and I went into town from Ely, MN - using an old logging road. So out runs this large adult black bear into our headlights. We were doing 25-30 mph but that thing kept pace with us easily for maybe 75-100 yards before bounding off into the trees again. If black bears get your attention, I can't imagine what coming face-to-face with a big grizzly, brown or Kodiak would do - put the fear of God in ya, I guess. My one moose story doesn't involve an attack, just encountering one on the way to the Boundary Waters. We crested a rise and there was this huge adult moose with a big rack of antlers, towering over us in our car. He got out of the road when he was good and ready, and not a moment before that! The guides I've spoken with or read about prefer to have semi-auto or pump shotguns, 12-gauge, loaded with slugs made especially for taking down bears. Or a suitable large bore rifle in 45-70, 300 Win-Mag, 30-06, 338 Win-Mag, etc. loaded with cartridges/bullets suited for dangerous/big game. Folks up in Canada have hunted the biggest bears for a long time with nothing more than grand-dad's old Lee-Enfield 303, so even that would probably work if loaded with a decent slug.

@haroldenglish943

Жыл бұрын

@GeorgiaBoy1961 thanks for sharing. Spent some time in that area you speak of. Good people and beautiful scenery + threw one too many down the hatch. Lol Was on the Ash River, Sullivan Bay, & Lake Kobetogama Lake. Great memories... thank you for reminding me.

Props to you for taking the path of, ".45 Auto is not ideal for bear defense, especially on anything larger than a black bear, but if it's what you have, here's how you can optimize it for that." It still seems to me that if a .45 Auto is what you have and you don't want or can't get another pistol, you probably can (and should) spend a little bit of cash replacing springs (and maybe the slide) so you can safely fire .45 Super: 230 grains of Super flying as fast as 185 grains of Auto is nothing to sneeze at.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I have a few videos on the 45 Super, but I wanted to keep it to 45 auto and +P since that is much more available. Thanks for watching!

@RobertETylerCollierjr

11 ай бұрын

Yes they are because Ive killed one with my 1911 45 auto... 3 shots and it was a brown bear or grizzly.

@PhycoKrusk

11 ай бұрын

@@RobertETylerCollierjr They are... what? Optimal for bear defense? A bear is not a cow.

We have a large tract of land and I always carry my .45 with ball ammo in the woods. While we only have black bears, some of them are over 500. In the spring, when they're hungry and aggressive, I carry a rifle also. Usually, my Marlin Model .375 with 200G power points. P.S. We have a LOT of bears here. It's quite common to encounter one and while they usually avoid us some are more bold than others. The .45 is a nice feeling as opposed to nothing.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, sounds like you have things covered! Those 375 rifles are just about collector items!

@dwayneroberts6616

Жыл бұрын

If you're carrying plus P solid core rounds with a muzzle energy close to 1000fps it will take out a 500 lb black bear. Provided you hit the right area.

@peterolsen269

7 ай бұрын

A 500 lb black bear is quite rare and they usually don't get that large without eating human food. 300 lbs is the norm in the wild, even Alaskan black bears rarely get much over 300 with the sows a little smaller.

@danhillman4523

7 ай бұрын

@@peterolsen269 Rare? Not around here. Regardless, look at the Michigan records. All are over 500. Some are over 600.

@peterolsen269

7 ай бұрын

@@danhillman4523 Size: In Michigan, adult female black bears range from 100 to 250 pounds, and adult males weigh between 150 to 400 pounds. Adult black bears measure about three feet high when on all fours, and are about five feet when standing upright. From Google Search. There are references to the largest "Bruin" being 700 lbs, but doesn't identify it as a Black Bear. I spent 10 years in Alaska and just had never heard of Black Bears over 400 lbs. We have Kodiaks that go well over 1000 lbs but once again they are not Black Bears. Black Bears are the only species besides Polar Bears that actually eat people, but generally will only attack women and children, rarely a full grown man. Black bears can easily be managed with a handgun, while Kodiaks are a completely different situation.

The takeaway here is the number of rounds expended and the carry-the-damm rifle/shotgun. While bears have been taken down with handguns and .22 which is very much the exception, grizzlies, in particular, have continued to charge after being hit with rifle rounds. The 1st story really illustrates the problem 16 hits out 31 rounds fired to down the bear, then 9 rounds in a later story, that is a lot of shots into an animal. But the elk hunter story is interesting in that it has expressed to me, that in an area where bears and hunting are common, they have been known to move toward the gunfire to try and get an easy meal. I am not sure it how common it is, but it is a topic of discussion at the local Rod & Gun among deer/moose/elk hunters. Having said all that this is one the best discussion of the pistols bear topic I have seen, being in Canada it is not an option but there are a fair number of pistol caliber carbines in 9mm and 45 and this applies. For myself 14-inch barrel 12 gauge, with bear slugs, and lots of practice every year, it's single point slung so it is always with me when I am walking in the bush. So far I have never needed it, but with sling, I am not tempted to leave it behind either.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, don't leave the long gun behind! There are areas here in Alaska that Bears come to gunshots looking for deer that a hunter shot. Usually places that highly regulate Brown Bear hunting like Kodiak or Admiralty Island. Most other areas Bear hunting is open and any Bears coming to gunshots end up getting killed and tagged. Thanks again and appreciate you watching!

@timg7627

Жыл бұрын

Short barrel 12 gauge is an excellent choice

Depending on what time of year it is a large grizzly can have 10 inches to its fat layer. That means you have to get past all that to reach the vitals.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, that is why one needs deep penetrating ammo. Thanks for watching.

@TheRealSwampOperator

Жыл бұрын

Underwood hardcast 255 grain hardcast 45 acp+p will have no problem with 10 inches of fat . For a long time I carried a police trade in Smith and Wesson m&p 45... Fullsize. I ordered a 22 lb recoil spring and guide rod from wolf. Bought two extra 14 round magazines. In those I put +10% magazine springs also from wolf. This ran 45 super like it was born to do it.. this is what I carried in the woods , in the south we have big ol gnarly hogs .. and they are exceptionally mean. I've never recovered a slug from underwood 45 acp +p hardcast or the same in 45 super

@GeorgiaBoy1961

Жыл бұрын

@ Nauncolar - You're quite correct that a mature grizzly fattening up for hibernation can have a very thick layer of fat surrounding its core, a layer which acts as a de facto shot trap. I can't locate the precise article or video right now, but I read a story about a seasoned hunting guide and some clients, all of whom were armed with at least one handgun. This was in Minnesota and southern Canada. They were confronted by an aggressive black bear, and ended up needing to use lethal force to protect themselves. The hikers/hunters were armed with a couple of handguns in 45 ACP, one in 40S&W and the guide had a 10mm Auto. After absorbing more than a dozen center-mass hits, the guide finally brought down the bear with his 10mm when it stood up on its hind legs - exposing its belly and vitals. A postmortem exam was done. They skinned the bear and learned that most of their pistol shots had been trapped in the overlaying muscle and fat protecting the bear's thoracic cavity. Enough of the substantial firepower used had penetrated enough to put the animal down, but it took a lot of lead to the do it, and the bear didn't go easy. And remember, this was a black bear, and not one of the huge coastal grizzlies, browns or Kodiaks up in Alaska and the Yukon. Moral of the story: Bring enough gun if you expect to encounter bears. 45 Super would be a better choice than plain 45 ACP, and better still would be a long gun in a suitable caliber, or a 12-ga shotgun with anti-bear slugs. Far as handguns go, 44 magnum has been bear medicine on the trail for a long time. You may only get one shot, so make it count by hitting as hard as possible. I say that because many people aren't aware of just how fast a bear can cover ground. For animals of their size, their speed and acceleration is nothing short of stunning.

@jamesw7072

Жыл бұрын

Aim for the T-box.......basically shoot it in the face.

@greenspiraldragon

Жыл бұрын

Bella Twin a cree indian woman killed a record grizzly with a .22 single shot rifle. She shot it behind the right eye a few inches back right where the brain is. She dropped it first shot. No layers of fat there and it is more than sufficient to penetrate where the skull is thin there on the side of the head. Shot placement is key. You can empty a full magazine of high caliber ammo and not take it down if you don't hit anything vital. Whatever your going to use make sure you can hit vitals.

I will say this about 45 ball 230 grain ammo, at 100 yards out of a handgun it will go through 3 1/2 inches of a 2X4 and the 2X4 is what the target holder sides are built from so if the round is properly placed then it looks like it should work.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, must be a good reason the military wanted that weight and velocity for the 1911 back in the day. Browning actually wanted a lighter and faster load. Thanks for watching!

Hi John, I really enjoy these videos. Good point about the pistol you have on you is far better than a better one you don’t have on you. Not being from North America I do like the look of the powerful revolvers but the amount of Alaskans carrying semi auto 10mm (and 45 mm etc) is hard to argue with. Particularly when you have large ammo capacity. Good drills on the young guy in Wyoming having time and skill to reload mags during a bear attack. But a powerful rifle would be nice too! Thanks for the interesting video, Dave 🇺🇸 🇳🇿

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Dave, Thanks! I don't think anyone in the group will leave their rifle behind ever again! Funny, but true saying "What's the purpose of your handgun? To fight your way back to your rifle that you shouldn't have forgotten in the first place!" Take care. John

@user-wj1xp8uo8e

11 ай бұрын

In a face off situation with a animal like that depends on how far away it is and what you can shoot good with you may only get 2 or 3 shots and you better be good with what you have enough gun to get it done not make it mad and pumped with adrenaline and rage and pain blow its head clear off nothing smaller than 44 mAg and heavy solids

@user-wj1xp8uo8e

11 ай бұрын

@@30-06john e

@ericoverdorff8880

9 ай бұрын

10mil and hot 45's are probably fine. But what alot of people do doesn't always make it the best option. I live in southeast Alaska and when fishing will pick a spot and fish. Another boat comes along and sees were fishing so they stop and fish there also. Along comes Another and stops and so on. More boats see a dozen boats fishing there and think wow! must be a hot spot to fish. Pretty soon there are 2 dozen boats there and nobody is catching nothing. Nothing beats a heavily loaded magnum revolver for putting energy down range,,,, except a magnum rifle ofcourse.

@davidneal6920

9 ай бұрын

@@ericoverdorff8880 good advice thanks

Thank you. Great video. There's a lot to learn from your channel and the comments

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and thanks for watching!

🙂👍👍 Good stuff John! Enjoying your videos! Mike.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Mike, Thanks! Have a great day! John

45 for the hoods 10 for the woods

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

As I said in the video, many shooters don't want to buy another gun, a 45 auto is what they have and use. Appreciate you watching.

@eancola6111

Ай бұрын

@@30-06johnWho doesn’t want to buy another gun? That’s one of my favorite things in life.

I did a lot of thinking before I bought a pistol for back country carry. I saw a guy shoot 10mm thru 2" of bullet proof glass. And when I was in the store the quarter landed on heads. Got a Glock 29. I qualified with this gun in 2 days of training and the recoil was easy to tame. Partly because of the shorter barrel. So I will be aiming just above right between the eyes. Never saw a hit there make anything other than an instant reaction. Dropped.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I am sure that firearm will serve you well! Appreciate you watching.

You are the voice of experience 👍

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words. I am not a Bear expert, but am living, traveling, and hunting in Alaska just about 40 years. Bear encounters and living with Bears is part of that. Appreciate you watching!

Great video. S&W makes 14 round magazines for their M&P 2.0 series in .45 auto. The FNH FNP .45 has a 14 (maybe 15 round) double stack magazine. Some people say you can get 15 rounds in them. The Glock G21 has a 13 +1 capacity so people may not realize and assume it's 15 rounds. I use a Glock G20 10mm with a 15 +1 capacity and depending on what ammo you choose, should stop just about anything. Of course, if there's an angry bear charging at full speed, who knows what could happen if you don't have a bazooka. I became a 10mm convert a couple of years ago and haven't looked back.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

yeah, I was thinking of a 15 round magazine, per the article. Probably the FN, optic ready too. The Glock 20 will work! Thanks for watching!

💡Your triangular recommended point of aim on a charging grizzly's face is the BEST point of aim there is if you want to stop it's charge in it's track's!👏👏 And a 9mm can and will be capable of stopping a charging grizzly if your triangular targeting is smartly utilized. There is no animal in North America that can withstand being shot in the face because that's the easiest route to the brain through the eye's and nose area. And like you stated, you should NOT depend on any type of expanding slugs because you want total penetration, so fmj or preferably heavy for caliber hard cast slugs are recommended👍 NOT saying that you should choose a 9mm for grizzly bear defense, but if it's the only thing you have at that time then use it and use it well, and do NOT stop firing just because you THINK you've shot enough rounds and the bear should stop, but shoot until you SEE that-that charging grizzly has stopped in it's track's and is no longer coming at you!💥😂😂👍👍👍

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I will add that good hits are required! The eyes-nose area really is not that big so one has to make that shot. The first 2-3 shots will set the tone for the rest of the encounter, good or bad, make good hits. Thanks for watching.

@jameshood9694

Жыл бұрын

The neck, throat, mouth, nose, and face are soft targets. Surely a 45 acp would do sone damage there.

There are a lot of archery hunters out in those woods, too. They aren't carrying a rifle in the first place, so obviously, that's not an option. A good handgun or bear spray are their only choice. You have to choose the one that you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately. If you can't hit your target, you may as well use the bear spray.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

As I mentioned in the video, the Grizzly charged through the Bear spray. Although, I guess in some hunting areas, if one is archery hunting, cannot have any firearms. Appreciate you watching.

Well finally someone with good sense, the stoutest handgun that I have is. 45 acp ,I’ve had for 35 years with over 10k rounds though it and the Winchester 230 FP rounds we’re my choice. I picked up 500 rounds alitte while ago and they seem to be full power rounds compared to some others that I have . Good to see they mimic the performance that Winchester has on the box . Hopefully in a pinch the bullet isn’t to soft if it comes to something hard to shoot at.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, those Win 230FMJFP are pretty good. I might do a penetration test later this Spring. Appreciate you watching.

@DieselRamcharger

Жыл бұрын

you shoot a bear with a 45 and your ass is dead.

@markalford5406

Жыл бұрын

@@DieselRamcharger I figure it’s a last resort anyway, I’ll give it as much room as possible. I just don’t want to be one of those people who watch the bear get closer and closer and the victim can even smell its breath and has nothing to defend them selfs with. The way I look at it I’ll fight with what I have and give it all I’ve got. Heck anyway the chance of a run in with a big bear is slim and the 45 will handle most others .

@JohnLee-jk5ew

Жыл бұрын

Have you ever checked out the underwood 255gr +p FN?

@DieselRamcharger

Жыл бұрын

@@JohnLee-jk5ew hope your life insurance is paid up.

Thanks for the video. I think your info is good. Hollow points are the last type of round to use on a grizzly bear. They have a lot of protection.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Need deep penetrating ammo!

I'm sticking with 45 long colts or 44Mag. Solid two-hand grip a calm sight alignment and don't stop till it's down. I'm an eye-target shooter when it comes to bear, black or brown. A grisly has a hard skull and its shape will deflect even a large caliber rifle so to me straight on the eye socket is my bullseye heart-lung might just piss it off. At any rate aim for high-value kill zones and don't stop till it stops and be ready to replace that mag.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, many people do use more powerful cartridges, but this video was focused on 45 Auto and +P. As I showed in the video, aim for the eyes/nose triangle on a charging Bear. Thanks for watching!

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

The part about the skull being so hard to penetrate is not true but last on u killed he had his mouth open fixing to bite me knee cap the shot shattered his skull and cervical vertebrae instant kills one thing to remember to kill instantly you have to hit a nerve center lung shots will work the just can now on you a little longer in my mind pistol rounds start at 44 cal and end at 45 hell African elephants have been nearly wiped out with a 45 caliber bullet

@vincentj3093

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, calm sight alignment no problem . Got it .

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

@@vincentj3093 Vincent when you want for the one and only shot you will be shooting down shoot for the center of the skull you will be shooting toward the back of the bear but this gives you two possible one shot kills shatter the atlas joint bears or destroy the brain I ve run bears with hounds I prefer the he linhbaugh 45 I shoot a lighter than most in the 45 I shoot a 280 grain wfn lbt bullet you have to be careful to bot shoot through a bear abd kill a dog it been said Ian the coolest headed guy the know in those messes but I trust my gun and shot placement is like 12 inches oh the grizzley fell to a 7 mm Mauser but was what I had to work with the lady took over 100 stitches had to go to court to see if it was a justifiable killing of a grizzle bear

@aidankirby8412

Жыл бұрын

BUffalo Bore makes ammo from 9mm that has successfully resulted in Large Charging Brown Bears being stopped. WHERE you hit em, is more impt than what you hit em with- Jack O Conner 10mm has more energy than a 45 at 100 yards, but either will do, in a Glock you have 14 reliable rounds. Ill take my chances with either and feel just fine

the fn fnx 45 tac and the springfield xdm .45 Elite have both 15+1 .45 acp and are very very popular guns with red dot options

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! The FN some one told me about that, but I can not find a 15 round .45 auto XDm. Appreciate you watching!

@rockie307

Жыл бұрын

Both will shoot 45 super reliably also.

@pughoneycutt1986

Жыл бұрын

The FNX is a joy to shoot, absolutely love it

@bobpalmer2815

Жыл бұрын

have one love it use civil defense bu liberty , 45 acp +p 78 gr 1900 fps , amazing gun and round

@stevenp8198

Жыл бұрын

@@bobpalmer2815 until you have to go up against a 600 or 700 lb pissed off grizz....he( or she most likely) will eat you smile on her face. I was raised in Alaska and live in the mt Rockies....I have killed half dozen grizz and that 45 auto(or super) is not going to get you out of a jam with a determined grizz....I've seen them soak up 44 mags, 10 and 12 ga slugs like nothing and still go for a few miles before expiring...don't even get me started on the 357 and bears. If you think you'll get off more than two or three rounds from an auto at a charging grizz, you better think again, a grizz will not even notice a 45 auto when pissed off, or protecting cubs!! I have a 10 as well but the 44 mag with 325 gr handloads is still present in the woods with me!

In the early 60's I read an account in Outdoor life, I think, about a fisherman in Alaska who was treed by a grizzly. The only gun on him was a Colt woodsman 22. He was stranded just out of the bears reach. The bear would not leave. After several hours, dark was coming on and man was getting exhausted and was afraid he was going pass out and fall out of the tree. As a last resort, he drew the Colt, and taking a very careful aim, shot the bear in the head, between the eyes., he estimated about 8 feet below him. The bear fell down at the base of the tree and did not move. After waiting for about 30 minutes, it was climb down or fall down, he descended. the bear was dead. Very lucky, but it can be done.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, he is fortunate he had that .22! Thanks for watching!

@gregmccarter2176

10 ай бұрын

Yes a 22 will indeed take out alot of animals..a good solid head shot is where I'd shoot, if I had time

Excellent review 👏 👌 you brought some good 👉 points, makes lot's of sense, thanks a lot.

@30-06john

4 ай бұрын

Glad you found it useful, and thanks for watching!

My Springfield .45ACP XDM is a full size pistol and it carries 13 rounds in the mag. Not too bad but but only as a backup.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

XDMs are nice pistols. Thanks for watching!

You better use full metal jacket or hard cast lead ammo. Hollow points don't penetrate enough. A bear has alot of body mass, try to aim for the brain. Here in Louisiana that's all you need. If I lived way up North I'd buy a 10mm pistol like the Springfield 1911 Ronin or XD-M.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the person in the story had JHP+P, wrong ammo. Also, they left their rifles behind. Appreciate you watching.

I don’t mean to question your knowledge, but I have been to numerous local gun shows where the magazine sellers offer a 15 round magazine that will fit a 1911 45acp. I’m not sure what pistols come with a 15 round magazine but one can purchase a 15 round magazine for a 1911. I’m sure it probably hangs out the bottom because they seem quite long. If one were out elk hunting I don’t think a magazine sticking out of the bottom of your pistol quite a ways would be problematic since you’re probably not trying too conceal it. If that is the pistol you choose to carry that’s your decision. I absolutely agree, they should never have left their rifles on the horses.

@30-06john

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, I would like to know what pistol he had. I sometimes use a 10 rd mag in my 1911, a 15 rd is long and a bit awkward. Yep, never should have left their rifles behind. Thanks for watching!

Thanks, John!

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

No problem Denny! We have Spring Breakup going on!

I live in the lower 48 so black bear is all I have to deal with and they are rare in what I've experienced. That said, I carry some Lee 255 cast bullets which drop at about 261 grns using wheel weight lead. Power Pistol is my powder of choice if I'm running super & above loads. But I have played with Blue Dot which also seem pretty good in heavy 45 acp+P loads. The load I worked up using BD is 9.2 grains and Quick Load estimates chamber pressure to be in the mid 23K range so this is a solid +P loading and should be worked up to using a lower starting charge weight to ensure safety. The numbers, mid 500 fpe, 986 fps 7 shot average, spread of 38 fps, low 964, high 1002, stdev 12.3 fps. Accuracy is 3" at 18 yards off hand. The pistol used is a modified 70 series Colt capable of Rowland level loads... This loading is a little heavy in a Kimber Ultra Carry 2. It shoots fine but the recoil spring is just a little light in the Kimber. Video of testing with numbers below... kzread.info/dash/bejne/k6Zk28qdgK-tcqw.html

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like you have your pistol and loads setup! I do have a few videos on loading 45 Super and heavy bullet 45 Auto +P. I wanted to keep this video on much more common loads. Thanks for watching!

@motorgearhead

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john - you are right about western powers older load data (edition 6.0). There is data for silhouette at 7.1 grns under a 250 berrys @ 900 fps - pressure is sub 23K. I have shot this load and it avg 900 on the nose. Low 880 & high 920 fps.

@motorgearhead

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john - since you like 45 cal, I have an air rifle you or some others may find interesting. It makes about 650 ft/lbs. 457 Texan CF - 640+ FPE Lee 405 Power & Accuracy Test - kzread.info/dash/bejne/qaqHuJOviNzbmto.html 45 Cal Air Gun VS 45 Cal Firearm - .457 Texan CF Vs 450 Bushmaster kzread.info/dash/bejne/eXdn25eDpNPgd7w.html

@kensalazar5066

Жыл бұрын

@motorgearhead: You are aware that there is a significant Grizzly bear population in the lower 48, the States of Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho...as well as a smaller population in Washington...it is

@motorgearhead

Жыл бұрын

@@kensalazar5066 - you are totally correct… I don’t know what I was thinking when I made that comment but being in North Carolina I think I’m gonna be limited with the black bear variety. I’ve been in Yellowstone so I do know there are grizzlies in the area. In fact park rangers had a road closed because of a sow & cub had been spotted

Not my first choice. Better than a fly rod or berry bucket. If it's all you've got, optimize it for .45 Super ammo from Buffalo Bore: 45 SUPER OUTDOORSMAN - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN 1,075fps/M.E. 654 ft.lbs. This can be used in any .45 by merely changing the spring.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking about adding the 45 Super to this video. I actually have a few videos on the 45 Super on my channel here. But I wanted to keep it to 45 Auto and +P since it is much more common. Thanks for watching.

Good video. Thank you.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, glad you found it useful!

FNX 45acp have 15 round mag. Good information, thanks

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a bunch of viewers let me know! Thanks for watching!

It has less to do with the caliber and more to do with the bullet. If you want to carry a .45 acp, carry 255 grain, hard cast, flat nose bullets. Underwood or Buffalo Boar make good ones!

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that is probably one of the best. Thanks for watching.

@JohnLee-jk5ew

Жыл бұрын

Underwood too

@GeorgiaBoy1961

Жыл бұрын

45 ACP in stock form is a low-pressure cartridge in comparison to modern handgun loads. That famous 230-grain "hardball" round was designed to be heavy, large in cross section (for a bigger wound channel) and slow, in order to deposit as much of its kinetic energy inside the target as possible. It did its job superbly for over a century, which is why the M1911 and its 45 ACP cartridge are still in use today. However, John Browning did not design it for use against big game, let alone dangerous game - but instead for anti-personnel use. Specifically, Moro tribesmen in the Philippine Insurrection then taking place. Hardcast bullets will make up some of the deficit of power, but you're better off loading 45 Super - which is of the same size as standard 45 ACP, but the case is thicker and more-robust so it can be loaded to substantially higher MV. Most handguns using it need a 20-30% stiffer recoil spring, too. Once you load 45 Super, it basically turns the 45 into something with 41 Magnum ballistics. Of course, you could also use a 10mm Auto and bypass the mods... or simply get a 44 Magnum and load that sucker with Buffalo Bore.

255gr 45colt hardcast from a revolver is historically known to kill brown bear. Drops them like a sack of potatoes and thats why 45colt was very popular. The 255gr hardcast offerings in 45auto and 45super from Underwood and Buffalo Bore replicate that load using the same .452 hardcast bullet from a 45colt. In +p doing 900fps it is effective, but 45super is available for guns that can handle them for at least 1050fps in short barrels. I use a Glock 30S with 45super 255gr hardcast with 10 round and 17 round magazines. 230 FMJ will not be an effective round against bear. They are too soft and are unlikely to penetrate bone.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I sort of collect Bear attack info, can you tell me where you got the 45 Colt and Brown Bear info from? Yeah, the 45 Super is pretty effective, I have one of my 1911s set up and have done a few videos on reloading for that. I have a few documented Brown/Grizzly incidents where the Bear was killed with 45 auto 230 FMJ. That bullet has a wide variety of hardness and jacket thickness. Plated bullets may look like FMJ but they are pretty soft. Traditional 230 FMJ are tougher. Some, like the Win Ready 230 FMJ flat point are very tough, from what I have been told. I might have to do some penetration tests once the snow melts. Thanks for your info and watching!

@dzoinc1555

Жыл бұрын

What do you mean by "historically"? I haven't seen any data to back up the widespread use of the 45 colt for bears. It certainly wasn't the primary caliber used in the old west.

@alexskillz45

Жыл бұрын

@@dzoinc1555 Believe what you want

@GeorgiaBoy1961

Жыл бұрын

@ Alex Skillz - Re: " I use a Glock 30S with 45super 255gr hardcast with 10 round and 17 round magazines." If you don't mind my asking, did that Glock come ready to use 45 Super right out of the box, or did you have to modify it with a stouter recoil spring, etc.? I'm looking for a trail handgun and 45 Super is one option, if I can find a model/brand which will accept the higher-pressure "super" round. Buffalo Bore or similar hardcast would be my chow of choice. Interesting info on the 45 Colt and its use against bruins... didn't know that! Thanks.

@alexskillz45

Жыл бұрын

@@GeorgiaBoy1961 I suggest that you use the same setup that I have. You can get a KKM suppressor thread barrel and a mini compensator 578 by 28 size threads from the H and K store. You can leave your recoil spring OEM, but I think it would be better if you replace it with a triple recoil spring from DPM. They are just way better than a regular stainless steel or tungsten double spring recoil spring.

Thanks for the intel. I own a couple of Glock 41s (.45 acp), but I wouldn't go into grizzly or brown bear country with anything smaller than .44mag for protection. Preferably .50 cal, or 12 gauge (slugs or steel shot).

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

As the story in the video shows, don't leave your long guns back with the horses! Thanks for watching!

Great video

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and thanks for watching!

Have you looked at the Buffalo boar, hard cast or the extreme penetrator? I believe there by Underwood. Both good penetrating rounds.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

From what I have read, those would be good choices. Thanks for watching!

John, really enjoyed your comments on this issue. Here’s what I’m wondering. What if I had my Rock Island Armory 22 TCM loaded with hardball. As you probably know those things leave the barrel of their 1911 going 1850-2000FPS. Even though it’s a small projectile, if it’s hard enough and it’s going that fast, shouldn’t it be able to break bones and get the job done?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, there have been Bears shot with various .22s, like the 22 Hornet. But these are almost always head shots. I would not rely on it to stop a Bear except for that shot. Probably OK Black bear defense. I hope that helps and thanks for watching!

@nsmcgirt

Жыл бұрын

You can’t find ball 22tcm !

Great job!

@30-06john

9 ай бұрын

Thanks, and thanks for watching!

Fnx45 has 15 round mags btw 😉

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, some one else told me that, optic ready too.

@mococaboy17

2 ай бұрын

so does hk mk 23

@mobilegamersunite

2 ай бұрын

@30-06john yeah, it's my favorite 460 platform. FN barrels can hold 100,000psi and the polymer is sponge 🧽 so it's very good for d3aling with vibration. Some polymers are so hard that they become fragile to vibration.

@mobilegamersunite

2 ай бұрын

@mococaboy17 yes, for a bit more price... 460rowland won't use mk23 as a base gun for the upgrade...I think it's because the barrel is not rated for the extra pressure 🤔

You could use a 22 for the same purpose. 22tcm. Nothing wrong with 45 auto, more the operator than the pistol. 7 or 8 dumped into target( preferably the head) will work. I have the upgraded 45 win mag automag that has more punch than 44 mag. It will stop them with 1 or 2 rounds. If your worried just get a 50ae. I have that too ...

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I just read a true story from the 60s where an Alaskan native killed a Grizzly with a 22 Hornet, took him 3 shots. I have never seen anyone carry an Automag in the Bush, ammo tough to get too. Seen a few Desert Eagles carried, sort of big and bulky, even compared to some big bore revolvers. Thanks for watching.

@louisbabycos106

Жыл бұрын

I like the 22TCM and the 22TCM9R but I would be hard pressed to believe it would a valid choice against a bear .

It certainly comes down to what you have with you. A well known and well documented Grizzly attack in BC, many years ago, near Ft St James, found a hunter badly mauled by a sow grizzly. She had knocked his rifle away in her initial very close range attack. He drew his belt knife and started to stab her in the head and neck area as she worked him over. She finally stopped her attack and left him. She was found dead, a short distance away, as he had very fortunately stabbed her in a carotid artery, and she bled out. Situational awareness, preparedness, and decisive action with the best option available, may carry the day. I’m. Sure that Mr Nichol, wished that he had known the bear was there, and had time to use his /06, rather than the knife, that day. In any case, it’s best to stay at a high alert level when in bear country, and pack the most appropriate weapon that you are comfortable and competent with.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, I agree. I talk about this in another video, 10mm vs 44 Mag for Bear defense, what really matters. Thanks for watching!

44 magnum is the king of handgun rounds. Perfect balance of power and recoil management. Ideal for both the woods AND the hoods.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I have a video, "44 mag for EDC"! Thanks for watching!

@blueduck9409

Жыл бұрын

If you fire a .44 mag into a crowd of people to stop a hood, youre likely to injure or kill people behind the bad guy.

@blueduck9409

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john i have seen and experimented with 44-40 loads for EDC. When hand loaded i think its a respectable cartridge. I would like to see a video on the old 44wcf.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

My EDC 44 mag load is mild. Also revolvers are usually shot less during self defense as opposed to a large capacity automatic, so less bullets flying around.

45 is a little bit light for grizzlies, but it's better than a shop stick problem with carrying a handgun or a rifle or a shotgun when you go. Camping or hiking is a lot of game ones and park rangers will stop you. They not. They not allow you to carry a handgun for instance and Yellowstone. They will actually compensate your gun and I'm sure that's five or six large parks and reserves and national Forest where they have game ones or park rangers and they were actually asked you if you have a handgun or not on you and sometimes they'll actually shut you a vehicle pardon my skills are texting. I'm an old Appalachian hillbilly. I ain't got used to texting yet

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, it is legal to carry concealed in National Parks, but not inside the buildings. A few years ago a backpacker had to shoot a Grizzly in Denali National Park (Mt. McKinely).But no open carry! Thanks for watching!

@saihemebillings2820

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john what firearm did you use?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I usually carry my 4" 44 Mag Redhawk. I was not the person that shot the Bear in Denali National Park, if that is what you are asking.

I wouldn't go into bear country with my .45 without either 200gr +P Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or Buffalo Bore 255gr +P hardcast bullets. Anything less and penetration seems less likely to me. Thanks for the vid!

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, need ammo that will penetrate and break bones! Thanks again for watching!

@jameshood9694

Жыл бұрын

Both Good bullets. I believe Double Tap makes a couple of good options too. Here in Mississippi we don't have large aggressive bears, but do have some sizeable feral hogs and many have been killed with a 45 acp using solids. I personally like speer Gold Dot make a 200 grain +P round that I like. I wouldn't use it on a bear, but for coyotes and even hogs it would suffice.

@karlheinzvonkroemann2217

Жыл бұрын

It all depends on the type of bear. Against Grizzly or Kodiak or Polar Bear don't count on any pistol stopping it. I cetrtainly wouldn't count on a pistol of any flavor. For a smallish bear like a Black bear, an AK 47 or a 30-30 Winchester will drop it without a problem. So will a .45, if you hit it right. It's only when encountering these other other monsters that you will need a heavier gun, very preferably a rifle. Rifles just hit with a whole lot more energy.

@factsnotfeelingssendit5961

Жыл бұрын

​@@karlheinzvonkroemann2217 A 30/30 or ak is on the low end of power for hunting. I've had plenty of hard blood trails thanks to those calibers. Especially with hogs. Usually don't get a pass through

Northwest Connecticut here, we only have black bears I carry.357 magnum with 180 grain and sometimes my Taurus judge in 000 buck .410

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, Black Bears can be very dangerous! Thanks for watching.

I have a Remington RP 45. 15round magazines excellent shooting.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I sort of forgot about the Para/Remington pistols. Thanks for watching!

Single action revolvers in 45 Colt can be loaded pretty hot. I think the factory cases can be loaded up to 1100FPS. But thicker cases are avialable. I have a Combat Commander, but if Ihad to carry a 45 for bear protection, it would be the old school Vaquero in 45LC. That said, it would be a cold day in hell before i'd leave my long gun on a horse. it would be right in my hand. My preferred bear proterction is a shortened 870 20G with slugs.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

A heavy loaded 45 Colt is a fine firearm. This video was more aimed at 45 auto users. But there are a few lesson, like not leaving ones rifle behind, also. If you are going to use a 20g for Bear protection, use Brenneke slugs, or maybe the steel slugs. Regular Foster slugs are too soft, might be OK for Black Bear. Thanks for watching.

@OutnBacker

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john Yes, I use the Brenneke slugs when camped solo. I don't know the limits of hot loads in the 1911, or how much pressure the factory cases can take. I know the Vaquero can easily take 1100-1200 FPS with 200grn bullets. I keep the Combat Commander at home because it's an early one and too valuable to risk losing it or having it confiscated. I used to take the big Vaquero, but I met a large bear that was not afraid, nor did he run. I felt pretty under-armed that night, at30 feet with a single action revolver loaded with cowboy loads. I figuired one shot and then he'd have his way with me. But he made the decision to stand down and walk away. No sleep that night. Now, it's the 870 for field trips. cheers.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I have a video I did last year on weapon lights for Bear defense, another on Bear defense techniques. Take care.

@nickdial8528

8 ай бұрын

For the average person the 45 auto is more powerful than the 45 Colt, you have to get into custom loads before you're going to get a modern 45 Colt with loads that run that hot.

Ive stopped a couple one with a 357 and 45 colt the shots made in inches you have to wait until you gave a certain shot to the brain both were instant kills don't waste your Ammo use hard cast bullets I use lbt wide flat nose

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, got to make sure of the shot! Thanks for watching.

@earlchesnut9017

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john yes you have to be cool enough to wait for the certain shot I call it a do or die but running bears with hounds you learn a thing or two about a thing or two the shots is easy if you can hold your cool

Thank You for this info 🐸✝️ God bless you and your family ✝️

@30-06john

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words and watching!

With ANY handgun, the best way to "optimize performance" is to listen to the mantra: "Rapid repeat hits are good things"

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Good hits are always required. As I said in the video, the first 2-3 hits are critical, make them good. Be ready for follow up shots, you will probably be shooting a lot. Thanks for watching.

If being charged straight on you need to drop to a knee or some position so you are shooting straight into the facial area rather than standing to prevent shooting over and behind.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I watched that video. I don't know any Bear safety instructors here that teach that. Thanks for watching.

It seems to me that you state that penetration is king in aggressive encounters of this type. I have had that opinion now for quite a while, and for that reason I am sold on the Buffalo Bore 147g, hard-cast penetration load, in a Beretta 92 INOX (5" barrel, advertised and tested at 1,100 fps). The difference in "hole size" between that and larger calibers, sans the "hydrostatic shock" as associated with handgun rounds, I believe is negligible. For a grizzly or even a black bear, my preference would be a 12ga with hard slugs, but I can't carry that on my belt. So the Beretta is the next best.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

That load is probably the best that one can get for 9mm. Thanks for watching!

@Oldclimber1

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john You are welcome. Additionally, the "autopsy" of a charging grizzly bear, that was shot with these rounds, by an Alaskan guide, revealed several of his rounds had penetrated all the way, front to back, and were just under the skin of its ass end. That's pretty impressive, both for the "nads" of the guide and the rounds.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that is Phil Shoemaker that shot that Bear with a 9mm.

*15 ROUND DOUBLE STACK VERSIONS OF 1911 in 45 ACP...do exist, or have existed, under various names...Canadian Made PARA Ordinance P 14.45 , Later made by Pre-Bankruptcy Remington as an Enhanced something, and Texas made competition race guns were done by STI 2011 or Staccato 2011... ROCK ISLAND MIGHT HAVE MADE A FEW. METRO ARMS MIGHT HAVE MADE A FEW... ' MADE OR IMPORTED ? ' There are or were probably some others. Thank you for sharing the stories.*

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, I was trying to identify what 45 auto that shooter had. A 15 round magazine is rare. A bunch of viewers let me know of the FNX 45, that has a 15 round mag, and is optic ready. Thanks for watching!

FBI testing results for penetrating through windshields and keeping its true trajectory is the Underwood 45 acp +P 200 gr Xtreme Penetrator I have no experience or testing of how well it would work for bear but for me in the back country of Utah that is the ammo I carry for our Black Bear population. Hope it works if needed :) PS I always carry an extra mag to please those who are all about round count :) 17 rds

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, there are a few loads that meet the all of the FBI testing criteria. I have no experience, but it looks that the Underwood load should be one of the better loads. Thanks for watching!

Para ordnance also produced a 45 acp 15 rd 1911 and Star of Spain produced a 12+1 called the mega Star double action semi auto, I prefer a 44 mag double action revolver, I always wondered if a 45 acp would penetrate the skull of a grizzly

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

There are many high cap 45 autos, but very few that hold 15 rounds, and since this was on a hunting trip, no extended magazines so it would carry easier. Appreciate you watching!

@tjs323626

Жыл бұрын

Just a FYI, for many years the record grizzly was taken by a 9year old indian girl using a .22LR. She was hunting birds and noticed the bear stalking her. Hiding behind a log pile, she "brained" it with a head shot.

When I'm in bear country, I always have my 458 Winchester Magnum with me, I bear can't be too dead.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

As long as it is not left behind, like the hunters in the video! Appreciate you watching!

@kolsen6330

Жыл бұрын

For me its a IWI semi-compact 941 in .45 and the m-1.

That bear image with pointers for where to aim is very helpful. Thanks!

@30-06john

11 ай бұрын

Your welcome, and thanks for watching!

Good video! Would you carry a SA revolver?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I have in the past, and many big bore revolvers are single action. Thanks for watching!

That Winchester ammo you showed is the only ammo my 1911 doesn't like lol. I know it's because it's a wadcutter just pointing it out.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, it's a flat nose, not really a wadcutter. Works fine in my 1911s. Thanks for watching!

I worked on salmon studies for the US Fish and Wildlife in Alaska in 1969. We were constantly surrounded by brown bears, sometimes as many as 30 on any given day. We had many discussions as to which was the best gun for defense. Finally an old-timer that was in camp one day gave us the best advice. "Caliber is really irrelevant he stated." "The most important thing is the pistol has a short barrel so you can get it quickly and comfortably into your ear." "That way when the bear begins to feed on you you can blow your brains out." Fifty-plus years later I still think that was probably pretty good advice.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I am living in Alaska just about 40 years, have traveled and hunted all across the state, I know Bear guides, F&G, and F&W personnel, and a few people that used a handgun to stop Bear charges. No one thinks about blowing their brains out. Alaskans don't think that way. Have a nice day.

Is there a steel point/core .45 acp bullet? Where I'd want something that could split its skull, with other bullets following that can penetrate and transfer mass. Is a 10mm more powerful than a .45? Mass transfer, penetration?

@30-06john

9 ай бұрын

Well, there might have steel jacketed ammo in the past but I don't know of any made today. A 10mm is more powerful than a 45 auto, it is similar to a 357 magnum. But 45 auto +P, or 45 Super is comparable to 10mm. Thanks for watching!

255gr +P HC is made by BB and UW probably too it has fairly good penetration in tests as compared to some of the other more "appropriate" cartridges.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, heavy hard cast +P would be much better! thanks for watching.

In elementary school, we had a computer one time with a bear hunting game one it. You could pick a rifle, and you always had a 1911 when you ran out of rifle rounds. I was the guy who figured out that picking the handgun from the start was best, because of the speed of the followup shots. I killed so many bears that became the top strategy. This was when computers weren't too great, with the 5-1/4 discs

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but video games are not real life. Thanks for watching!

I'd definitely would rather have a big caliber rifle in my hands if attacked by a grizzly then a pistol, any day of the week!! 45-70 lever works. At least when the charge starts if you have the distance you can start the take down accurately. Reasons why I hunt with intense K9 Trained to target threat. Just my 2 cents. Either way to face a charging Grizz Would be hairball.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, as I showed in the video, many times long guns are just left behind. I don't think they will ever leave their rifles behind again! Appreciate you watching!

@haroldenglish943

Жыл бұрын

It's not about "Leaving" a rifle behind. They are not conducive to field dressing and quartering game. At best you'll lean or lay a rifle against a tree or log some distance away.

Hikers are told to always carry pepper spray and wear bells on their shoes in grizzly bear country. You can identify grizzly bear scat because it smells like pepper and jingles.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Bear spray works on mildly curious Bears. And bells are not a bad idea. Thanks for watching.

@1notgilty

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john That was a joke! :-)

FN makes a model that holds 15 rounds of .45 Auto, and it's called the FNX-45. There's a standard and tactical version with a threaded barrel, optic cut, and suppressor height sights.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a bunch of viewers let me know of that model. Thanks for watching!

The Russian tt-33 tokarev 7.62 x.25 is another excellent choice because it's extremely loud has a light bullet going very fast the penetration on it's totally awesome and holds about 9 or 10 rounds similar to the 45 ACP but quick second third and fourth shots

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Russian Tokarev is a hard pistol to make quick, accurate shots.

@MrKaido93

Жыл бұрын

@30-06JOHN, GUNS AND RELOADING : As a known specialty bullet series inventor meant for Hunting and Wilderness Defense purposes against apex predatorial animals like Bears, I respectfully disagree with your statement. For many years, I was both a US Army Military Police Officer carrying the 1911 45 ACP pistol. As well as a Military Police Officer in the Estonian Defense Forces Army Military Police. Where I carried in both my careers several pistols, including a Soviet Russian Tula Tokarev TT33 pistol. I found that the Tokarev TT 33 to actually be, in some aspects, is superior to that of the 1911 45 ACP pistol. With regards as the Tokarev TT33 pistol in 762x25 caliber has overall superior accuracy , especially in longer distance shooting accuracy, overall, the TT33 has better concealability in EDC. A superior design in the main operating mechanism; with the Hammer, Firing Pin unit, as one block unit that easily comes out as a single part unit. I also know of a situation that occurred in Florida where a person used a Tokarev TT33 Pistol in 762x25 caliber to stop an attacking Alligator, which aggressively attacked a person. All it took was one (1) shot, one round of surplus FMJ 762x25 ammunition from the Defender to stop and kill the dangerous attacking Allegator. I have read alleged accounts from Soviet Russian Red Army Military personnel, who used Handguns to kill Bears, I do recall that the Tokarev TT Pistol in the 762x25 caliber was effective to stop and kill the various aggressive, attacking Bears that Soviet Russian Red Army personnel encountered. Being that I am also a Flat Nose Bullet series inventor, I have thought about designing a Truncated Flat Nose Bullet in 762x25 caliber for the Tokarev TT33 pistol as well as the CZ52 762x25 caliber pistol for Wilderness Defense purposes against apex predatorial animal attacks. I have to truthfully say that my experiences and research results respectfully disagree with your statement. The Tokarev TT33 pistol, especially the Yugoslavian M57 in 762x25 caliber are excellent ,accurate and powerful well designed and made pistols, which can effectively be used as Personal Safety Defense devises against apex predatorial animal attacks from Bears to Wild Boars to Crocodilians etc.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, I said it was hard to make quick, accurate shots. I am talking about the typical, surplus type pistol found in America. If one wants to spend more then might as well get a newly manufactured pistol in 45 or 10mm. From what I have seen, trigger pull is pretty heavy. Let alone the question is the 7.62X25 enough, but is the handgun easy to shoot to make the shots in a Bear defensive encounter. A drill I use is set up a target at 5 yards and put a 6", 8" and 12" circles on it. Start at low ready, at the beep shot as fast as possible 1 shot each starting at the 6" circle, then 8", then 12". This sort of simulates a charging Bear, aiming for the head. Time should be less than 3 seconds, no misses. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for watching!

@mkshffr4936

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john I have no direct experience with it but given that the Tok is well known for defeating body armor I wouldn't be surprised if it did work reasonably well.

@chrisdaniel1339

Жыл бұрын

It is interesting you mention that about the Tokarev, the Military Arms Channel on YT tested a Tokarev with some Bulgarian Military surplus FMJ and it zipped right through level IIIa hard plate body armor. The video that has this clip of the Tokarev is in "Liberty Civil Defense 9mm and Body Armor" at 5:59 from 4 March 2015. It is a pretty interesting video. When you consider high velocity rounds put a immense amount of pressure on a very small area, when you increase the area of contact the pressure decreases so in theory a smaller faster round has a better chance of punching through the cranial vault into the brain stopping the attack instantly vs a larger slower moving projectile. Ron Spomer did a segment on the 220 Swift and he mentions Frank Glaser was a market hunter who used the Swift to harvest all types of meat in Alaska to feed the the Army and road building crews up there. The guys tested the penetration of the 220 Swift and it made a two clean hole through 1/2" armor plate from half track vehicle where as the armor piercing 30-06 rounds US government issue just dented the steel.

Most likely a Para Ordnance P14...in 45 ACP

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, must be something like that. Thanks for watching!

Thank you

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and thanks for watching!

For those who insist that 45ACP is good enough, I recommend going up to 45 Super. If the 45 has a supported chamber, a recoil spring swap should get it.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I wanted to keep this to 45 auto and +P since it is much more common. Thanks for watching!

many thanks.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Your welcome, and I appreciate you watching!

My FN 45 Tactical comes with 15 round magazines and is rated for 45 Super per the son of the man who invented the 45 Super. It is also a favorite of Rowland for the 460 Rowland round. I carry Underwood Extreme Penetrator or Hardcast. Cheers

@30-06john

3 ай бұрын

Sorry for the late reply, some how your comment did not show up initially. yeah, the FN 45 tactical is a great gun! I kept this video to 45 auto and +P, since that is much more common. Thanks for watching!

I used to buy the same Winchester USA 🇺🇸 READY ammo, great price and much better quality than the white box. 15$ down in Charlotte

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that is pretty good stuff! Thanks for watching!

The FNX .45 ACP Tactical comes with three 15 round magazines. I own one. I have a Trijicon Green Dot dual aperture optical sight, which never needs batteries. The pistol comes with a threaded barrel for a suppressor.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a bunch of viewers let me know of that model. Thanks for watching!

@nokoolaid

Жыл бұрын

Even the non-tactical comes with a 15 round.

What are your thoughts on Underwoods +P 200 gr. Xtreme Penetrator in 45 acp

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I have no experience with that type of ammo, but it sounds like it would be better than JHP, or most JSPs for penetration and use on Bears. Thanks for watching!

Hi John, Just discovered your channel. I enjoy your straight forward style. I also watched your 45 super video, have you tried or investigated 450 SMC yet? Starline is currently backordered on 45 Super so I am pondering trying the 308 case. What do you think?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Well, the 45 SMC is very similar and actually an offshoot of the 45 Super, but it uses a small rifle primer. I have a few videos on 45 auto +P using 250gr and Enforcer powder, gives almost 45 Super velocities. Making hot 45 auto loads using .308 brass has been done for many years but has never been popular. I have never done it myself, doesn't look too hard, I think the inside of the brass has to be reamed since .308 brass is thick. Loading for that takes some experience, case capacity will be different from 45 auto and Super brass, and even between brands of .308 brass. I hope this helps, and thanks for watching.

@johnforrest8042

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john May try it after doing a little more looking around. I wonder where Double tap get their brass from or if they would sell brass? I have a couple 45 carbine uppers and it would really be nice to have hotter ammo for them. Thanks for the reply, I sure enjoy your channel. BTW where are you located, roughly?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, Double Tap or Underwood might sell brass. The 45 Super, and 460 Rowland sure want to become popular. That is one reason I did the videos on 45 auto +P, no one can find 45 Super brass. Be a bit careful on shooting hot loads through a carbine, I think most of them are blowback action and I am not sure if those are rated for Super ammo. I have lived in Alaska for just about 40 years, most of that time in Anchorage, but I have traveled across the state for many years. I hope this helps and thanks again!

@johnforrest8042

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john Double tap said no on the brass.

One more thing that I would like to add here is that you can get a conversion kit for the Glock 21 to turn it into a 460 Rowland which will put you into 44 magnum territory.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, already a lot of talk on the 460R. Appreciate you watching!

My wife and I hike in Arkansas and Missouri,for a carry I use 1911 loaded with Buffalo Bore 255 gr hard cast +p ,feel very comfortable.If I were to go to grizzly country I’d probably consider a larger caliber revolver.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

That will work! Yeah, a more powerful cartridge is preferable. Thanks for watching!

Any thought on lehigh penetrators in .45 for this purpose ?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I actually don't have any direct experience but from other videos I have seen, they should be OK, better than JHPs. Appreciate you watching!

I carry a Glock 30 with a fully supported threaded barrel with comp for quick follow up shots; I replace the stock 17 pound recoil spring to a 23 pound recoil spring and carry a 30 round aftermarket magazine loaded with 45 Super 230gr. hard cast lead bullets, when bow hunting.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Please be sure that magazine is reliable. I would be suspect of any extra long, after market magazine for my self defense handgun. Thanks for watching.

Very good. But no recommendations such as 454 mag, 480 mag or 460 mag. What do you think.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

You might want to look at some of my other vides, "10mm or 44 Mag for Bear defense, what really matters" has been popular. I hope this helps and thanks for watching.

As for the 15 rd 45 mags, he could have been carrying a Para P-14, or they do make a 15 rd mag for the 1911. I have a few of the 15's for my 1911's, but they extend way to far for practical carry for me. For decades for bears, I have carried a 1911 Kimber modified to shoot 45 "Super" with handloads loaded with the 250gr hard cast RFN at 1,150fps. If using only 45+p loads, either the 230 cast or jacketed FN or TC at 950fps. Either penetrates very deep, breaks bone and tracks much truer than a round nose bullet. Plain RN's have a tendency to skip off hard heavy bones and not track straight. But, I almost always use the 45 Super, as it rivals the 10mm, and in some loads, surpasses it and with a larger hole size.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I was trying to find a nonextended magazine 15 round 45 auto. Might have been Para or FN. I have a few videos on the 45 Super here on my channel. I kept this video to 45 auto and +P since that is much more common. Thanks for watching!

@LuvBorderCollies

7 ай бұрын

Those extended mags have a poor rep for reliability. Even the Para double stacks aren't the greatest and that's from someone who shot competition, burning up almost a case a week.

Any size ammo is good enough for bears just so long as it disables someone you're with.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

That person probably has the same idea. Thanks for watching!

Thompson 1921 Chicago typewriter with 80/100 round armor penetrator cartridges drum magazine is perfect for bear defense!😊

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Not if it is left behind with the horses like the hunters did. Thanks for watching.

@blueduck9409

Жыл бұрын

Smoke em if you got em!

I'm a 10mm (properly loaded) absolute fan for any bear protection. That being said, my family owns all sorts of magnums.. I have hunted for 30++ years with a Model 29 .44 Mag with a scope.. That being said, I would be absolutely comfortable having my father's Gold Cup .45 ACP in the same area, as long as it is loaded with Underwood or Buffalo Bore.. "Bear Spray" is worthless unless you want to season yourself or.a friend. The absolute most important thing is simple. You must put rounds on target, in stressful situations... BTW.. I think my father sourced an extended magazine for his .45, and while it is loaded and in his pistol bag, he's never tested it.. And, he isn't a fan of extended magazines... The big difference between the kid with the .45 and the guide with the 10mm = guide likely was a much better shot..

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

I really didn't mention it, but the story said that the first few shot from the 45 shooter seem to slow the Bear down. Also, don't leave the rifles behind with the horses! Thanks for watching.

I like Underwood Ammo's Xtreme Penetrator Hunting & Self Defense Ammo with the Lehigh Defense solid monolithic bullets I selected that to carry in my EDC .45 colt derringer. I need to get some 9mm Luger +P 115 Gr. Xtreme Penetrator My first choice for bear defense is a 12 gauge shotgun. It has been hard to find Brenneke slugs.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

The Brenneke slugs are pretty good and used on Bears by Alaska F&G. Thanks for watching.

I enjoyed the video comparing caliber of guns to stop a grizzly bear and had a question. How does 12 gauge '00' buckshot do in a bear conflict?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a 12g shotgun is one of the best firearms for Bear defense, what many departments use here in Alaska. Most use hardened slugs like Brennekes. I have heard of 00 buckshot stopping Bears, if possible use plated and full power. There is some reduced recoil that is made for use against people. I hope this helps and thanks for watching!

shot placement is everything no matter what cailbur.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yep, I agree. Thanks for watching.

I own a Metro Arms American Classic XB 1911 in .45ACP, 14rd double stack magazine +1 in chamber. It is a handful!

@30-06john

10 ай бұрын

Seems like a great gun! Thanks for watching!

It’s like an elk guide once said, “they’ll have to wade through the brass to get to me”. That feller carried a Glock 23. Many moose and even bears are killed in defense by handguns every year. 15+ rounds of xtp .45’s is gonna make that critter think twice. You don’t necessarily want to kill or wound the animal, you just want it to stop the attack, hopefully…..

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, the hunters in the video, and the guide, first mistake was to leave their rifles behind at the horses. Thanks for watching..

@nickdial8528

8 ай бұрын

Well that's an arrogant mistake on their part, most encounters the person only gets 1-2 shots, 3 if their lucky. Most people do not get to empty a magazine in a bear attack.

Hello, I have a SW 9MM and a SM 686 357 Revolver. Will any of these take down a Bear if needed?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

A heavy loaded 357 Magnum is a good choice for Bear defense. Just to clarify, it is fine for Black Bear. For Brown/Grizzly Bear, ammo selection is more important. Use a hard cast lead "Bear load", train to get 2-3 good hits on about 8" circle at 7 yards, in as many seconds. I hope this helps and thanks for watching.

Rock Island Armoury 14-round 1911 model "TAC Ultra FS HC" is only $899 a GREAT insurance to save your life, this is my personal backup while hunting... it has never happened to me BUT I have heard stories throughout the years of Cougars/Mountain Lions and Bears attacking in the Pacific Northwest!!

@30-06john

11 ай бұрын

A large capacity 45 auto is a capable handgun! Thanks for watching!

@TheSpritz0

11 ай бұрын

@@30-06john YES double-stack mag and aim as hard as you can between the eyes (if possible). I am also a Vet of 2 wars.

Para-Ordnance P-14 has a 14 round magazine plus one in the chamber. I've owned one for quite some time\

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I sort of forgot about them since they, and Remington, went under. RemArms does not catalog them. Appreciate you watching!

@walterdanielswalter.r.dani7628

Жыл бұрын

@30-06john Mine must be 30yrs old. Alloy frame. Very accurate. A cousin put 7000 rounds through his. He was a bulls eye competitor.

I have a Glock 21 and I always wondered if it would stop a bear . I’ll make sure that I have full metal jacket when I go hiking in the mountains from now on or get me a larger caliber pistol. Can an AR15 556 stop a grizzly?

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, Alaskan natives use the .223 for a lot of hunting. But can it stop a Grizzly charge? I don't know and I would really try and have a more powerful rifle. I hope that helps.

Pro Mag makes some of the best extended mags for 1911A1s. You can get them almost anywhere or mail order. So that solves the 15 rounds issue. But, it does add a lot of weight to the weapon. But they do exist.

@30-06john

Жыл бұрын

Well, I am assuming that it is not an extended magazine since those are awkward when hunting and riding a horse. Thanks for watching!

@robertcole9391

Жыл бұрын

@@30-06john That's the problem with assuming. I've used them while horseback and heavier system in reenactments.

@alexskillz45

Жыл бұрын

45auto bullets are too heavy to function with extended mags. Light for caliber bullets help with reliability but are not good for bear. I have 25 and 30 round mags that are reliable with 118gr ARX 45acp rounds, but I will not rely on them over 10rds of 255gr hardcast +P. I have ETS 18rd mags for my 45auto Glock, they will not run even 185gr reliably. I 3D printed a coupler to use 2 springs out of the 9rd ETS mags. Dropped my capacity to 17rds, but run 255gr reliably. Even the Glock factory 13rd mag doesn't run the 255gr hardcast reliably. Did the same with 26rd fun sticks using 2 Glock springs, it works but the mag can be so heavy that I worry about my mag release wear and tear so I only load those with 135gr or lighter. Same with the Kriss MagEx2 30rd extension. Another thing that helps with extended mag reliability is a compensator that slows the slide down so much that it lets the extended mag keep up. Combination of all 3 methods, that's how I have myself a 30round Glock 460Rowland.

@robertcole9391

Жыл бұрын

@@alexskillz45 They can yes. Which is why you don't leave your mags loaded. Periodic maintenance of the spring in the mag, take it out and stretch it a little, and no problem. Pro Mag has never failed me. The 5 I have, I've had for 10 years and never a problem.

@alexskillz45

Жыл бұрын

@@robertcole9391 After I fixed mine I can leave them loaded for months on end. I shoot them off eventually and no problems. I bought a Promag 22rd for the Glock .45 and it was no good at all. The mag catch notches are too high and doesnt insert all the way. I bought it from their website and they wanted me to pay shipping to replace them, wasn't worth it. The material they are made with is a joke, a complete toy, horrible spring. I kept it instead to have an example of the horrible quality. I also own 3 other brands of 26 round fun sticks. They vary in build materials, but the springs are all decent, except I swap the springs the Glock ones anyways. The body materials vary. SGM Tactical are the cheapest made, very much like the ProMag, aluminum liner and flimsy plastic exterior. The KCI (Korean) feel like OEM, steel liner and similar polymer but they don't drop free. Scherer are the best, smooth steel liner and the zytel polymer body seems improved except the witness hole count is off by 1. I have 7 ETS mags. The polymer see thru bodies are definitely durable but need a good smack to lock in the magwell which is annoying. Still, the extended mags need mods to feed reliably. The springs are excellent quality and stronger than OEM, but .45 is too heavy for any one spring to run high capacity. They drop free when empty, but not when loaded, which is fine, seems desirable. Friction is an issue with extended mags and the ETS are the smoothest inside not needing a liner. The springs come extra long to accommodate floor extensions but I think the original floor plate should be kept on. Still, I don't recommend any of the extended mags. I have modified them with a 3D printed well design part to place multiple springs in a series for reliable feeding. A part like that does not exist on the market and ppl putting 2 springs in one mag side by side as others have done not only reduces capacity by 1 third, also makes loading extremely difficult, causes double feeds, and puts pressure on the slide rails and mag catch. I have done professional modifications, I actually have a video on my channel about that. I don't sell this part because I don't want the wrong people having working extended mags in 45 calibre.