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@trevorbailey4441

7 жыл бұрын

Brock Davidson we would love your input on our new Facebook page....... SUZUKI GSXR 1000 1000R L7

@jryer1

7 жыл бұрын

@Brock: Read your link to the octane article, excellent read. Question; If my one of my goals is to stay on pump gas, and the 2017 GSX-R1000 is only requiring 90 octane, is there room for a small compression bump on this bike and would there be a performance gain significant enough to warranty such a mod? The thought being 93 octane. I've gone the MR route before, and it's more mess than it's worth. A real nightmare if you just miss one drain and flush. Thanks!!

@SHONGERMAINE

7 жыл бұрын

Maybe they are using the exhaust valve to smooth out power delivery. I noticed that some motogp teams are using exhaust valves. Sound and emissions are not a big concern. The only thing I can imagine they are doing is controlling power delivery. Opinions?

The suspense is like a weekly TV series.. Can't wait for next episode 👍

this video should be called something like "everything you wanted to know about stock sportbike exhausts, but were afraid to ask". amazing video.

These videos are absolutely fascinating to watch! Thanks for taking the time to create and upload them.

You deserve a lot more subscribers. I like how your honest especially when you complimented your competitor

@Jmeez69

4 жыл бұрын

i know!! Brock is the freakin man!

Thanks for taking the time to do these excellent, technical videos on the new GSX-R 1000, Brock. Please keep them coming.

This is the stuff all sport bike riders wish to see and know more about. Thanks brother, keep em coming, riders everywhere appreciate it.

Only 50k views for this?? Proud to be a part of that!

Great work, can't wait for the next part, so many questions being answered!

Getting the in depth knowledge on the process is so satisfying plus all the numbers too lol definitely subscribing.

Congrats on the work you guys are doing. I am so hooked on these videos. Learning so much and understanding how it all comes together and working. It is brilliant. Well done

I love how Brock is just such a humble awesome guy that he has no problem showing some love to one of his competitors. I have a graves 3/4 system on my zx6r and i'm literally thinking of getting rid of it and putting a full Brocks system on because of the honesty and integrity that I've seen in these videos.... not to mention the wealth of information and scientific data!!

@BrockDavidson

4 жыл бұрын

Awe shucks 😊

Great video Brock and well detailed like always! Keep up the great work!

First of all i'm loving this series. The explaination you give is clear enough for a complete noob in the matter like me to anticipate some of your assumptions while listening and finding them correct afterward, that's just thanks to a great presentation. very good job! I just wanted to make a consideration about the exhaust valve test. In your test you were either having the valve 100% open or 100% closed. What the ECU does with it is carefully adjust it and not necessarily opening it up linearly, you can clearly see it some time do like "open - open - open - close a bit - open open" while the RPMs are increasing. It is fine tuning the exhaust pipe's diameter based on data from the various sensors it might be using. It's quite obvious that if you put a plug at the exhaust end it drops in power! Plus you missed the crossover pipes test. Should have done the same thing with that valve just for the sake of it.

Great videos Brock, super informative video series, can't wait for the next video!!

Man Brock I love your videos. Gonna finish this one after work

@BrockDavidson

5 жыл бұрын

Glad you like the vids, we work very hard on them.

Amazing job. Thanks for the lessons, Broc. Cheers.

how could 3 people dislike this video? must have hot the wrong button.... keep up the great work Brock. can't wait to see your exhaust and tune on this bike and what that power curve looks like and peak numbers!

Tons of experience Tons of information Master no doubt 👍

Awesome videos.. Cant wait to watch the end results.. big thumbs up...

Absolutely love your videos such knowledge and enthusiasm brought to life.

Great videos your making Brock thanks I'm really learning a lot ! Keep up the good work 👌🏾💪🏽

Man Brock - thanks for the experience, most interesting was how the exup did nothing at full throttle but changes everything at other throttle. But not in the way I would have thought... I was sold on exup helps lower rpm response

Brock you are awesome man!!!! Love these videos. I'm learning so much about this bike I'm about to buy. Thanks man.

Awesome stuff Brock. Keep it up.

Once again Brock...excellent work. Very clever

Thank you for another great video.

Mr. Brock, thanks for doing these vids. Some of the stuff may seem pointless to some people but there's no such thing as pointless dyno testing when it comes to GETTING THE FACTS(#'s). DANG IT, CLIFFHANGERS ! Now i gotta wait . . .

Awesome series with the Gixxer. More episodes like this with other bikes

another great video Brock!!!!!

Brock thanks for the lesson.

Also keep in mind the 2017 GSX-R1000R is 438 lbs, while the 2017 GSX-R1000 is 431 lbs. Yes those add features do come at a small weight cost, however I guarantee for most people at track days or races, the RR model will lap faster on the average. The transition from throttle to full brake and down shifting in particular on the RR is miles ahead of the R. The RR will get the bike slowed for corner tip in at shorter distances than R because of blip shifting, and consequently earlier engine braking will occur. My testing has shown that the RR, even if the rider chooses to hold the clutch in (with the blip shifter activated) it will honor all downshifts very quickly. Which means the only thing left for you to do, is lots of braking and occasional clutch release to let engine braking help slow the bike. Now try that on a 2005 GSX-R1000, not going to happen. I don't even think the 2017 R model will honor all downshifts if the clutches is kept fully disengaged when attempting this. I believe the R will require the clutch to be released with each downshift? Brock can you verify this on the R? The time saved with the RR allows shorter braking distances, later closing distances on competitors. It's truly an awesome piece of machinery, we finally have a bike where both entry into and exit from the corners is nearly seamless. Today with traction control on 2, plenty of throttle, the rear snaked around a little and immediately smoothed right out while still pulling like a mule. From a dead stop I just release the clutch smoothly, add loads of throttle, and almost immediately I have to Q-Shift, while the front just hovers a little, all the while my lower body (legs, back, stomach) is working to stay clamped on the tank, and this beast just keeps on pulling. All that at 165 hp, just wait til Brock takes this thing, to I believe, 190+ hp on pump gas. I'm telling you all, this thing is a weapon. Several occasions, the RR downshifted so dang fast, I hadn't properly matched braking speed upon clutch release, but guess what, the slipper clutch did exactly what it's design to do, SLIP beautifully. One more thing, I'm not even finished with my 1000 mile break-in, so all this is happening under 10k rpm. Engine Mode, Traction Control (wheelie control integrated), Launch Control (which I'll test after breakin), Quick & Blip Shifter, Lap Timer, Performance shocks (springs may need changing for racing), and a bevy of changes allowed via the screen menu.

Think this shows that stock exhausts are pretty damn good nowadays at making power. Ugly, but effective. The slip on makes next to no extra power but looks better and is no doubt lighter. A full system is what we need to make extra power. Great vlog Brock. Very very interesting and no BS 👍

great job once again @brock! Great info and thanks for taking the time to do all of these tests. I hope your business grows from this! I have a question of course, is there any flash tune system that can import the power commander maps directly into the map tables of the ecu?

Well done!

Awesome clip, do me a fav and bust out part 3 asap. Thanks

Brock u need a Lab Coat!!! Hahaha... love this content! Wish u would make em more frequently!!!

Love what you're doing Brock! Seriously your page is under rated! I'd love to see a nitrous kit installed on the gixxer, a direct port vs fogger comparison would be even better! We know DP would win but hell you have a cool ass dyno room to do cool shit in! Also, How about You do some work on the new honda liter bike ? Everyones complaining about power, Im sure you could "WAKE IT TF UP".

GREAT JOB BUDDY 🤙🏼💯✅

great content brock.

love this stuff

Loved the information you're giving on the new bike.. wondering if you're going to do the same with the zx14 as well?

Yet again another video to prove the point and shut down the lies loving it anyone who doesn't want to make more power and shut down there buddy's other bikes should stop watching now Loving it Brock and brocks performance team keep it up please do the same videos for the new busa if they ever release it maybe not in as much depth on the points you have obviously killed at this point

Point being about the SET - just delete the function of the this valve to be always open. But keep the oem function of closing the front cylinder channels for high RPM. Then the power from low to high should be kept the best way. But - as from the early days already - the secondary butterflys and also SET valves are just there to make the bikes more quiet.

Its like brock's college 🤓. Great vids makes for building hp on a bike easy.

I really wish I was the "Luke" with the GSXR 1000!!!

Jesus Christ this is too good

GREAT JOB BOSS🤙🏼💯✅

Very nice, not surprised both bikes make same torque & hp, the RR is more about increased ride-ability, and I'm not surprised by the exhaust test. Removing that FAT-CAT, a properly designed full performance exhaust, and exhaustive (pun intended) tuning should make this a serious mule, that pulls like a freight train and screams like a lunch time whistle

Great vid👍👍👍Brock.

Great Video Brock but just curious wouldn't the EXO valve be there to increase engine breaking whilst on track thats the only reason I can see to have it on there. Maybe I am wrong.

Ex-Up valve open mod, Slip on, Flash and Good Tune.......191hp!

love the video

BROCK'SUZUKI ----- TWO THUMBS UP FOR YOU THANK YOU

hi brocks, why didnt u compare connected/disconnected exo valve on flashed ecu as well?

love to hear the alien head exhaust on it!!!!!!!

Cool stuff. You just made my day brighter 😆 How does the exup affects AFR? Rumours has it that removing them would cause the AFR to go haywire...

@BlueHokage

7 жыл бұрын

r3dster - I was wondering this as well. I am also curious how the results would differ, were you to tune the bike in the scenario where the cables are disconnected, considering the bike comes delivered with a factory tune designed for them to be connected.

broc'k-suzuki you are amazing thank you so much thank you thank you

Hi Brock, i don't understand why in your dyno charts max power is placed at 10.000 rpm. Suzuki declare 202cv at 13.200 rpm. Could you explain why there is this rpm gap?

Hi brock, love your work, is there any chance you'll be working on a 2017 cbr1000rr? I would love to see the differences between the standard ECU and what you would be able to do

@martins7194

7 жыл бұрын

Yes!! would love this too.... Currently trying to make up my mind between the CBR1000 SP and the GSX-R

@AJTalks

7 жыл бұрын

Go GSXR for savagery, CBR for precision. I went GSXR, don't regret a thing

@effeottocentoerre

7 жыл бұрын

I myself, bought a CBR SP1, upgraded from a 2014 sp model. I'm in love with the bike, extremely fun and precise as you say

I have a 2017 GSXR1000R..just put a full system and power commander with no map yet,servo buddy and K&N air filter..bike hasn't been tuned yet.my check engine light came on n stayed on..how do I get the light to turn off? Any in put would be greatly appreciated..thank you.

ct series ftw!!!!

650ib truly hero

@DonPedro6901

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for him ;-)

Have you considered timing and fuel adjustment with your test for the exhaust valve ? such a big difference could be related to the ECU not adjusting for these parameters OR the ECU might just jump to a different timing/Fuel table once it recognizes the valve is open and that will definitely hurt the relative low rpm the bike was tested at. I would love to see the timing advancement and the A/F ratio to conclusively say the valve is hurting the performance of the bike. Because, for a N/A motor, what moves the exhaust gas from one end to another end is the pressure waves generated with each exhaust stroke along the pipes. That being said, at low rpms the valve can enhance the size of the pipes to the optimal point where the pressure wave can travel at their best UNLESS there is exogenous factors that could hold it off.

hey brock. im loving this video series, u really break things down and crash the myths along the way. i was wondering if u went to this extent with the 2016 zx10r, which is what i have now, and if so, whats the most hp n torque can get out of the 2016 zx10r ?

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

@D Man H Yes. We go into this type of detail on every bike we provide pipe/flash/map combinations for here at Brock's Performance. Here is a 2016 ZX-10R 'braggin' chart www.brocksperformance.com/images/2016_ZX-10R_Pred_MR12.jpg

Hey @ Brock, where's part 3 with the full system?

I'm really liking the detailed info you give in these videos. You really don't leave much out. Do you have any videos from older carb'd bikes? I've got an 05 Katana 750 that I'm planning to build a 90 GSXR 1127 motor for that I've already picked up. Just looking for info on the old school stuff if you have any available.

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

no, sorry. But I used to make the old school stuff run pretty well: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gZuKqMuim9mqksY.html

@TEAMWRIGHTEOUS

7 жыл бұрын

Brock Davidson Awesome. I'm kind of lost as to which direction to start on it. With cars the info is plentiful and overwhelming. With bikes it's like a big secret that's hidden and no one is giving it up. LOL.

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

We don't have any secrets. Please contact our team for answers: sales@brocksperformance.com , 937-912-0054 or hit us up on our live chat www.brocksperformance.com

@TEAMWRIGHTEOUS

7 жыл бұрын

Will do.

Dear Brock. I know this is a very old video but i got a question and maybe you still read this. My english is not so good so i have trouble understanding everything in the video said but i try. As i understand the valve in the back on the gsxr 1000 exhaust does not make any power difference when you disable. Is this is same for the one in the front header or is that one important for horsepower? When you remove the cable i see the back stays open but the front will stay closed (i think?). Can i remove the cable and ride or is it not good? I wish you a nice day and thanks for you videos.

@BrockDavidson

2 жыл бұрын

@WheeliesForTheFeelies - your English is good! If you are speaking about this exact bike 2017+ GSX-R1000, removing the front cable results in high RPM power loss. The valve on the front of the header (SUZUKI Exhaust Tuning-Alpha valves (front EXCV)) is used unlike most other similar items seen on other machines in that Suzuki opens this valve at high RPM's ONLY to help vent exhaust gasses that otherwise might not escape due to the very small header tubes they use to help develop low end and partial throttle "grunt". Disabling this valve on the stock head pipes results in lost power in the high rev range -therefore, it is not recommended. I hope this helps. - BD

Yes sir

Does it affect engine braking

Brock question I see you run 89 octane on the gsxr is it ok to run that low of octane fuel on these sport bikes specially with such high compression.

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

The manual calls for 90. Our pumps here offer 87,89 and 93. The 93 hurts horsepower vs. the 89, so we are going with 1 point lower. Please follow the mfg. guidelines ESPECIALLY if you live in a hot climate or you subject your bike to extreme use. Here is more info on octane: www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/templates/bpp1.aspx?articleid=255&zoneid=8

@aarr2603

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks Brock love the videos very interesting info

So let me get this straight. If loosen up my servo cables from the servo near the muffler, pure for a better sound. The performance won't be affected?

@BrockDavidson

6 жыл бұрын

@Mitch RR - If you remove the cables completely AND make sure your EXUP valve does not choose afterward... if it does, you could LOSE a bunch of power. That said, any removal of the cables will also trip check engine lights, which can lead to additional confusion/problems in the ECU. The cure for this is a proper derestriction flash. Please e-mail dynoroom@brocksperformance.com to see if we offer a flash for your bike.

the one that you work on it...is it 650 ib's friend?

hello, Thanks for the great content you share with us, really helpful! I have a question: you showed the effect of keeping close the cross over tubes on post-peak power. However, that is a USA bike before the ECU flash. In the USA bike, because of the limitations, the peak takes place at much lower rpm if compared with the EU bike. So the statement that cross over tubes help the post- peak power might be not valid in the case of EU bike (or USA without limitations), do you agree? Maybe, without limitations, even the peak is lower not only post-peak?! thanks

@BrockDavidson

5 жыл бұрын

The crossovers (not adjustable) in aftermarket exhaust systems have hurt peak power on all bikes we have tested over the years.

@ubbaracingdepartment9892

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson thanks for the answer ... So if you imagine to modify the OEM exhaust, removing the catalizer and exup valve, would you leave the cross over open or closed? (In EU bike) thanks

@BrockDavidson

5 жыл бұрын

If you intend to retain the small diameter OEM primaries, the movable crossover will be needed to retain decent peak power.

@ubbaracingdepartment9892

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson ok perfect. Thanks

Hi Brock, so if i disconnect the rear pair valve do i just leave the front one in the headers alone? or disconnect it as well?

@BrockDavidson

8 ай бұрын

I think you are confusing PAIR and EXUP. Our Gixilla series explains both in full detail.

@kx501

8 ай бұрын

Yes i meant EXUP@@BrockDavidson

@BrockDavidson

8 ай бұрын

Explained and tested thoroughly here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/f3qGsMyOfdKqnpc.html

I know its an old video but love to hear what you thought about the slip on run being 14-15 afr on the low revs

@BrockDavidson

Жыл бұрын

That's typically where OEM set-ups run at lower revs.

@hisaanhaq4116

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for reply, reason i ask is i have same bike with R11sq slip on (stock bike otherwise) and haven’t removed the db killer because because i was worried it would be lean. So you think its ok? Also curious in these runs has lukes bike had pair blocked? As watching your other video we know at low mid rpm even at full throttle the pair is pulling air in and that would make it look like its lean low down?

@BrockDavidson

Жыл бұрын

You will be fine removing db killer. We don't make runs without the pair blocked, unless we are doing a video on before/after etc. Stock bikes are VERY rich up top, at wide open throttle where the load is most severe. At lower opening, the load is not sever enough to cause damage.

Oh and for the record. That Gsx-R is running lean af... He really needs a tune. he's almost runing stoic. Need to be low 12's His cylinder temps are probably high af. Most 600's can get away with a mid 13 tune and still have good cylinder quench but not a 999.

How long do I have to wait for the new video you should put that in your videos,!!

Brock I have the same exact GSXR 1000 R with the Yoshimura slip-on. I know that you're obviously going to install your exhaust with a full ECU Flash. Based on everything you showed this seems like the way to go. Can you tell us how much life we might be taking out of the motor flashing the ECU or is this something that is a safe science at this point?

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

Check out 15:00 here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYiVlrNxdJq9dLw.html

@gamiddop

7 жыл бұрын

Brock Davidson I know the limitations of the slip on it was just a cosmetic choice for now. Im waiting the first season out for you guys to figure out what capabilities / parts are needed to make big power. Im just curious how tough is it on the motor running a flashed ecu. Also will it be possible to have a flash for people with a slip on that keeps the exup but gives us what our european counterparts have in terms of horsepower. Can the ecu open the exup earlier? Not all of us can afford all the tickets we would get putting a full on race exhaust when riding in the street.

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

Please see link below on no reduction in engine life. We are working on a good combination for a slip-on/flash max power etc.

Funny thing to add is that I road one of the new gsxr 1000 and found it had no power bellow 7k in 1st crack it open she is flat . I know own a k6 with no valve in the pipe and she pulls from 2k easy at low speeds I 3rd or even 4th at a push . I prefer the k6 has more grunt and ooomf . But the new bike has the edge at top end but that's it

EX-UP valve and Yosh Duplex was a marketing gimmick,back in the day.

is why you want a full exhaust!!!! screw that stock headers,cat 3 drive by wires. lol

17 Gixxer looking like a killer.

I know this is old, but since you have eddy current load holding, you need to set the load to hold RPM and THEN adjust it while the dyno maintains load to hold a certain RPM.

@BrockDavidson

3 жыл бұрын

Please watch the entire series.

@mattnsac

3 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson when you were turning the exup on and off it wasnt maintaining a constant speed so it wasnt possible to see exact changes at the same speed 14:20 (dropped a good 10mph from my seat from 40mph to 30mph). Maintaing constant load is fine for cell tuning (which you are well aware Ive seen you do it) , but for this test shouldve been targeting a constant MPH/RPM to give a full apples to apples comparison instead of a constant load with a varying MPH/RPM

@BrockDavidson

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattnsac The gauge on the upper left shows that we performed the test at 20% load. I'm sure you can find a better video explaining this if you don't like our testing procedure.

@mattnsac

3 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson holding the same load with differing power is going to make the difference appear larger. Take for instance dialing in timing curve, you need to hold it in a particular cell and add timing until you see a torque drop aka spark hooking, if you did that via constant load as you made more torque, youd move out of that particular cell into a higher rpm cell. By maintain constant speed and varying load, you can change the power all you want and still stay exactly at the same point of the map which thereby gives you an apples to apples comparison of what the variable did (be it open vs closed exup or advancing/retarding timing). Regarding the outcomes, I know getting rid of the exup helps, thats why none of my bikes have them and Im not calling into question the efficacy of getting rid of it, just that the way you showed that test isnt how Id do it for seeing power change. Take it as constructive critism and not berating cause thats what it is.

@BrockDavidson

3 жыл бұрын

You do realize that the bike tried to stall when we manually closed the valve? What you are asking is better suited for an engine dyno... the purpose of this video is not to determin BMEP... it's to attempt to show marketing vs. real world results. I belive it accomplishes this.

So cross over tubes or no crossover tubes?

@BrockDavidson

2 жыл бұрын

Depends on application... what's yours?

@brendanflegle3326

2 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson all stock 2011 gsxr 750. Just bought it. 7k miles. Practically new. Looking for the right exhaust.

@BrockDavidson

2 жыл бұрын

@brendan flegle we don't use them on ours and get very strong results: brocksperformance.com/alien-head-full-system-black-14-muffler-gsx-r600-750-11-20/

how can I come to work for You?

Expected as much... if those valves did anything but regulate sounds and emissions I would have been very surprised. Love this series. Very educational. :D Can't wait for the next part. On a different note, what air/fuel ratio would you normally aim for? On a dyno run, from 2008 on my 2001 CBR600F4i (~30000km, ~20k miles), with stock exhaust, aftermarket slip on and K&N air filter I saw an AFR as high as 17:1 and as low as 12:1 (blue line in image, Euro 95 petrol). I often see you going for 13.4 ish. imgur.com/a/Cx6z0 This run was made before I replaced the exhaust system with a full titanium Akra system and a Dynojet. (got a completely different bike back after they were done tuning it). Apparently they had some problem with the whole system having too much flow and the bike almost not being able to inject enough fuel. lol. I just went with that and never really asked about it. Still sounds like a bit of a weird thing to me, but I guess it could be possible. :)

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

It depends on the bike. Not all bikes run the best with XX.XX AFR. Generally, modern sportbikes run well in the 13.0 to 13.6 range, but it really depends on the bike. Your chart shows a typical chart with a map that was 'tweaked' - it's not good, it's not terrible...but it could certainly be better. We will have info. on this in an upcoming episode.

2:45 What a squid.

EXUP is a Yamaha acronym.

I bet most of the engineers if not all of them are waiting for people like Brock to really unlock this bike like they wanted it to be before big government stops them

Exhaust myth busted! :D

Why moto companies set speed limit in ecu

@BrockDavidson

7 жыл бұрын

2017 GSX-R1000 Stock to Brock - SPECIAL EDITION (Q&A) from Episode 3 : kzread.info/dash/bejne/eYiVlrNxdJq9dLw.html

If you need an h2 to try any new stuff let me know lol

Actually if you load the bike more at lower speeds and more throttle you will see an increase in power. They don't put those valves on for no reason and it's not noise reduction which could be accomplished easier and cheaper

@BrockDavidson

5 жыл бұрын

Not on any instrument we have to measure power, dyno / drag strip etc...

@Bass.Player

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson So why is it there? They have been used long before any of the current stringent emission and noise laws were in effect...

@BrockDavidson

5 жыл бұрын

@@Bass.Player only telling you what we have discovered. Not saying it's marketing bs on all bikes... But it is on this one and every other we have tested. Ever.

@Bass.Player

5 жыл бұрын

@@BrockDavidson I realize that this is what you find in your testing (I saw it), but I know that reducing the back pressure removes power/torque in times of high cylinder pressures where velocity is greatest compared to piston speed (both intake and exhaust). I think we all have observed a loss of acceleration while doing a 5/6th gear roll-on from say 40/50 mph when going to a free flowing exhaust. This was one of the reasons engines went to four valves per cylinder to increase flow at low piston speeds and some engines only use two of those valves until higher RPM. This volumetric efficiency technology has been around and in practice since at least the early 90's. Peace!

and when are we going to TV cheap bikes on the drag strip

We want videos like this with 2017 or 2016 kawasaki z1000 sogomi edition sir

Woo hoo sheetz you guys must be north east ish

@BrockDavidson

6 жыл бұрын

Southwest Ohio

If u want more power and better handling go to European bikes!!

good point my zx14 is way faster with a 180 instead of recomended 190 i let a friend of mine borrow bike for a couple weeks he put a 200 on it omg it felt like i was plowing fields on a john dere dog city usa the 180 will take off and leave you seting in the street

In