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Bryson hit a persimmon and got 182 ballspeed....with a modern ball. Sooooo I dont think Persimmon is that far behind modern drivers as Bryson gets 190 without a long drive club.
Shaft perpendicular to the spine is music to my ears. Went round and round with Martin Ayers on that subject (who is steep coming down and flattens late which raises the handle during impact via a force on the shaft based on where the club head is at the top, not laid off after transition).
Interesting your jazz influence (drums). I used to teach Harvey Mason while I was a lead instructor at CompuSport. but he was more than a student, but a friend. Saw some great Fourplay concerts back in the day.
start with a wedge.....then move on.....if you are new to the game.....
Also factor in the fairways. Today’s pga fairways are firm and fast with the short grass. Look at the difference in the videos. Personally, I’m more impressed with the quality of those long wood shots into the green. Anyone can hit a green with a wedge, but then they gotta make the putt.😂
Isn’t Firestone pretty tight?
Very long ... not super tight. Tiger would have had a good advantage there during that time when he was much longer than just about anyone else.
Louisville Golf made Tiger's persimmon driver. I saw them being made.
Wondering if the left wrist should be cupped at address and just keep it.
Simplifies things certainly...
Thanks. Do you do this?
@@user-lx5iv1sr6w yes, absolutely.. as did Hogan. Forward press puts the wrist in a flat position that would then have to move into cupped position. I prefer tapping the club to initiate... personal preference.
34:10 - "What happened there, bro?" LOL
Louisville Golf! Still making them today! I have been using their 3wood for 15 years
I recently picked up a set of persimmons D-3-5 with stiff shafts. As I am not competing but merely playing for my own pleasure, these suit me just fine…. and I’m getting my share of pars and birdies with them (along with Mizuno MP54 3-PW irons).
I have a set of Mcgregor Tourney M clubs from the early 50s. 1 through 4 woods and 2 through 11 blackface irons. I play with the woods from time to time and really don’t feel my modern clubs are much better. The irons on the other hand are hard for me mostly because the shafts are extra stiff.
The argument that the flatter you turn the further/faster from the ball your left shoulder moves is incorrect, geometrically speaking.
In stack and tilt the spine goes back into flexion in the downswing, so it doesn’t look as awkward as you made it.
Stack and tilt is nonsense. No great ball striker used this method for the long irons or drivers. It's an extremely flawed methodology for the longer clubs. Wedges and short irons, it can work to some degree. However, you simply cannot properly access the 4:30 line with S and T. Impossible.
Thank you very much for this one, John. I like my Hogan Speed Slots, but I love my George Izetts. And flat lie '73 Hogan Apexs !
.. very good, thanks very much
John fyi.. Golf Digest on Twitter today posted Rory's numbers. Persimmon 286yds, 4400rpm. Current driver 330yds, 2200rpm. Believe both done w modern ball. Also Tiger's 3 US Amateur titles came at TPC Sawgrass, Newport C.C, Pumpkin Ridge. Not sure if any of those require precision off the tee.. I'd say Sawgrass looks pretty tight. Anyways great video. 👍
Rory with a balata would probably be 270 at most.... but that being said, he probably wouldn't be hitting it that far as he would have to scale things back in his swing for accuracy... assuming he still wanted to win tournaments. Given the same gear... driver and ball.. I doubt he would be longer than Hogan and Snead... or Nicklaus for that matter.
Many do not consider Jack a premiere ball striker like Hogan and Sneed. However, IMO he is underrated because he was so good at course management and clutch putting. Lee Trevino said many times that Jack was one of greatest driver of the ball very straight and he had an extra gear if needed on long par 4's and Par 5's. He also could hit a 1 iron as high as most of the players of that generation hit their wedges and there has never been a club more difficult to hit flush than a 1 iron blade. Certainly he would excel in today's game and be equal or maybe a better driver than Rory.
@@7777mantle Rory hits way to many space ball drives to be in any kind of great driver conversation. Jack was a great driver of the ball... one of the best. If Jack had a weakness, it was his wedge game at times.
@@lagpressure Scaling back? That is not at all a position I agree with. Palmer, Player, Chi Chi, Knudson, Trevion even Moe Norman and numerous more legendary players truly attacked the ball, particularly with their long clubs. Hogan performed similarly, but his footwork seemed a little more balanced or fluid compared to some of the other players I described. Theirs a highlights package of Johnny Miller in his round sixty-three. As he swings to his finish, at Oakmont Miller busts a driver and his feet are all over the place. Henry Picard believed that Hogan could really bend around, and that he had ‘great posture, footwork, everything’. It was Picard who, in the 30s, had told Hogan to weaken his left hand grip. This was necessary because of Hogan’s flexibility and the amount of counterclockwise motion with his left hand and arm in the downswing. It was Picard who told Hogan to ‘wheel it’ and to ‘turn it loose’, because he believed that if you have a true swing (as he believed Hogan possessed by then), ‘the harder you hit it, the better you hit it’. If you return the club at full capacity to the ball, the club head will true itself up at impact. Hogan mentions something similar PAGE 96 Five Lessons. This is great advice for beginners in that they should focus on learning to swing hard with the longer clubs
@@Paneofglass5 Well, thanks for the lengthy post about your opposition to scaling back. However, not once in my video did I mention scaling back. This video was about Tiger using a persimmon driver to practice with while he was in possession of all four major championships. If you can find were I said "scaling back" in this video, you are able to hear words that were never spoken. In the ABS school, we teach our students to hit hard and hold shaft flex from a hitter's protocol, not a swinger's. Maybe re watch the video?
How do I get into teaching? I’m good at golf no certifications or anything but would love to share my knowledge as a career. I’ve been in a dark spot recently trying to figure out what to do for work but golf is my love
He was 6'2" and 185lbs in the video. Someone convinced him to get big. Same with Hovland. The short-term gains are negated by long-term skeletal and soft tissue destruction.
It was his ego! He wanted to be considered an athlete. If he were humble enough to admit that a smaller frame that is flexible is what he needed, he would have Jack's major record by now. Now he is done!
Tiger ain't 6 2
At Torey, Tiger was so close to the ball with his driver (unlike in the Golden days); I watched it the other day, it looked so uncomfortable. He won because of his irons, escapes, shortgame and putter. In the 2006 Britsh Open I think he used 1 driver/round; the course was hard and running; he dominated by not getting into trouble, shortgame, putting and great irons.
There are no players at this point on the regular tour that grew up with persimmon and blades. In that sense, their swings are not going to develop properly if masterful ball control is the desired result. Tiger did grow up playing persimmon and blades and understood that feel and feedback were critical. Practicing with persimmon was extremely beneficial for him. I don't know if others around that era were doing that, I suspect very few if any. It gave him a significant advantage. That being said, he always appeared to struggle with the driver. His golf swing with his driver was very different than his iron swing. Too much right elbow throwing and the shaft was pretty steep coming down which would make for difficulty controlling a right to left or gentle draw shot off the driver. He mentioned this in the video.
Did he have it with the same shaft, length and SW ?
Not sure what you question is here...
@@lagpressure You must be very stupid.
@@bigpardner Lol go away child 🤡 🚮
I wish Pro's had to use these
Sure... just like baseball is still on wood bats.. no one is complaining. USGA really dropped the ball on this issue.
@@lagpressureThe size they’ve allowed the driver and woods to become (without even getting into other aspects) is insane.
@@coeenc123 It's fine for weekend golfers.. like corporate softball games etc... but never should of been allowed for high level competitions. The USGA has done a horrible job of preserving the integrity of the game....obviously. Rolling back the ball is just them admitting this...clearly.
I guess he could have been worse driving
Tiger was a very good driver of the ball relative to his contemporaries, but not one of the greats. He knew this, and practicing with persimmon was the best thing for him to keep improving his driving.
@@lagpressure Tennis moved into dangerous territory .. smaller racquets 🎾 would provide a more entertaining game no doubt.
John,,,,,,did you move?
Persimmons are amazingly underrated. They don't go as far, obviously, but are better in all other respects imo (feel, sound, look, shot shaping, etc...) Tiger was a phenomenal driver of the ball in the 99'-01' timeframe. Pretty accurate and crazy long. His accuracy really went downhill after about 2003 and he never got it back.
Of course he was a good driver of the ball, and very long... but he hit too many space balls to be considered one of the greatest drivers. Accuracy comes first with driving.. then distance... not the other way around. Watson was not a great driver of the ball... nor was Seve... but of course they made up for it in other areas big time.. as did Tiger.
I used a Powerbilt 5wd for a long time. I couldn't take it out of the bag it was a guaranteed fairway finder.
Another enjoyable video and a perspective I agree with in regard to the game of golf. Anytime I see an old school Persimmon Driver in good condition restore-able condition - at a reasonable price I buy it. I have several old beauties in my collection. I only have 2 that routinely practice with in effort to save the others for the collection and long term hold. When you make contact with a persimmon out of the sweet spot......what a feeling. You can literally feel the ball compressing on the face and rebounding outward off the face toward your target line with some serious heat on it. Such a wonderful feeling --- every serious golfer should it give it a try. It's almost addictive. Striking an old heavy bladed iron is the same way. I am always on the lookout for old blades. Some of the modern "game improvement" irons as they are called just look wrong. They seem like they don't even promote or require golfers to hit down on the irons. So much bounce even in the long irons. How can you truly ever get better at golf if you don't learn to strike downward on an iron taking a divot at -- and in front of the ball. Another fun to watch video. Thanks John. jdp
Accuracy, trajectory control and shot shaping are by far the most important elements of great ball striking. This is why I play forged blades and persimmon. If they made great clubs now, I might play them... but they don't. Cheap metals, too much offset, too light, shafts have bad feel and are not based upon deflection rates as they should be. Very inferior to the stuff I play.
Yes Sir. Agree. Too light. Can't feel the clubhead. For me I have a hard time triggering something I can't really feel. Oversize grips don't help either. Like my grips in my longer clubs to feel thin. Especially in the right-hand trigger. As much as I enjoy watching and admire what DeChambeau is doing with a golf club. I don't understand wanting to entirely take my hands out of the golf shot. I want to have my brain and my hands and my kind of intuitive feel of the clubhead all working together and thinking about triggering and delivering the clubhead at impact in the manner that will produce the result/shot I want.......for lack of a shorter and better way of saying all of the above. Enjoy all your content Sir. Be well. @@lagpressure
Is it possible that his demonstration during that clinic was just a gimmick to put on a show ? I don’t understand why a professional player would honestly spend a great amount of time using a tool that he wasn’t going to use for his job. Do you think Bobby Jones continued to use hickory shafts in an attempt to improve after metal shafts were introduced? There is no doubt a persimmon has less margin for error, but that wasn’t what he was using for competition. An 8802 putter is harder to use too. But I don’t see him practicing with one over his anser -type Scotty cameron
I do not have the answer for what this clinic was about but Bobby Jones retired at age twenty eight at the end of the same calendar grand slam with his hickory, steel shafts were out before then many did not like them. Bobby designed the first number matched set with Spalding, when he made the eighteen short films on golf instruction he used his hickory and did with normal matches with friends until he couldn't in 1948 because of an operation for the spinal disease. He did hit steel and hit them well but he just liked the feel of hickory.
You will get more feedback from hitting 50 balls with a persimmon than 100 balls with a frying pan.
Funny i heard recently Tiger uses an 8802 to practice aometimes
Yeah, if only Tiger would have skipped the older club he might have become something. He really should have had you there to tell him what he should do so he would have had some kind of success.
@@britishrocklovingyank3491 Tiger trained with persimmon to improve his golf swing. This is nothing new, he's spoken about this many times over the years. His words not mine.
My shots totally improved when I switched to heavy persimmon and heavy muscle backs.
Of course. Being able to feel the clubhead is critical. More mass requires less speed to move the ball the same distance.
Damn, if he was able to swing that swing his whole career and not destroy his body, he'd have 25+ majors.
I really love Tiger's iron swing in that era... the driver was a bit disconnected and a lot of right arm throw through the strike... same with Phil. Tiger avoided the super tight courses for this reason. A truly great driver of the ball would embrace the tight layouts... especially those layouts.
@@lagpressure Exactly what "super tight" courses did he avoid in that era? LMAO This I've got to hear. Dude won 9 times in 2000 and 4 majors in a row. He wasn't avoiding anything.
@@joeldriver-sp2rg You're not correct, but I'm sure you think you are. Tiger avoided Harbor Town and Colonial for starters. Do your research..
@@lagpressureHe also hated Westchester, and his dislike if it got the tour to drop it from the rotation.
@@johncassani6780 Another good point...
The solid core Nike ball was his big advantage around this time.
Was the Nike ball not available to other players? Were they making a custom ball just for Tiger? I don't know... I wasn't following golf at all at this time.
@@lagpressure Most of his rivals were contracted to other brands, mostly titleist. Davis Love 3 commented at the time how the tigers ball was miles ahead of the old wound balls everyone else had. A big reasons behing tigers great run around 2000. Titleist brought out the pro v later and set the new standard.
Solid core golf balls were played on tour successfully long before the Nike version with the Tour Edition played by Greg Norman and The Strata played most notably by Mark O’Meara and Jim Furyk among many others. The Strata was nearly as dominant as the Titleist in the 1990’s. It wasn’t his golf ball. Go look at his putting stats from that period.
@@ryanu3708 Tiger's weakness was clearly driving accuracy. Point being that he knew practicing with persimmon was most beneficial for him, and also scheduling events avoiding the tour's tighter courses. The tour used to play mostly tight courses prior to the distance boom in the 90's. The game on tour changed and Tiger had the right recipe for the modern game that is still going on today.
@@ryanu3708 Norman played 2 piece because he spun it so much. Strata was the first solid core with decent spin but they didn't have the marketing to get the big names. Great ball it was. It a while ago, but I think someone bought topflight/ben hogan for the ball technology, possibly TM
Since I’ve been practicing with older clubs my game has become so much better. Not only is control better in older clubs but so is the feedback and feel. For me the club is always the best teacher.
Absolutely 100% correct.
My first set of clubs were Tommy Bolt bladed irons with real leather grips. I played to a 10 handicap. To this day, I will only play bladed irons.
@@josiahthornton9125 Blades are better irons for ball control.
I still remember good old days reading your thoughts in the forum back then. It’s been a while. But I’m glad to stumble back on you in YT. Your explanation here is much easier to understand. Take care John.
Always trying to be a better teacher and communicator. Glad you are finding that to be true!
Hi John, I love your videos/ instruction. I noticed that at impact your lead leg doesn’t get to a straight position before impact or actually after impact so I’m curious about this as so much modern instruction is focused on clearing the hips early and posting on the forward leg , look forward to your thoughts / response Jim 👍🏻🙏🏻
Best if torso pulls on the left hip first.... then hip pulls against knee. This is what all the great strikers did. Straightening the left knee independently is fools gold. Knudson and Moe are texbook examples. You'll see this with Hogan also.... he's never locked up at impact.
.. at last someone who is articulate and can express what they want to say clearly and concisely, it’s actually a rare occurrence in golf coaches
.. trim that hedge, subscribed 👍
I’m making a film about Moe Norman and would love to chat with you about him.
Sure...
Great video. Very interesting.
Pure gold. You have just help explain the feeling of when I produce a good swing. Now I can focus on producing that feeling more consistently..Thanks again John, the word genius best describes your understanding of the mechanics of the swing and your ability to teach it. Your tips have been helping me figure out how best to reproduce good technique as well as countless others I’d presume.
Thanks for the kind words. It's always a good feeling to know we are helping people from around the globe improve their golf swing technique.
Very insightful advice, practicing technique. I watched a Henry Cotton video about hitting a tire to improve your hands and he said in the video “you’re only as good as your hands”.
My belief, is to take it back, with the upper body rotation and to take it through the ball, with hip rotation. You need to have the clubhead low, with an upper body rotation at p2, in order to have a level shoulder rotation, through the downswing and impact. Upper body at takeaway and hip rotation, on the downswing, is the only protocol which will achieve this 😊
Ps, it saves the upper body rotation , through impact !!!!
Or you could do what Hogan did...
Great advice. I often practice by just hitting putts with my right hand only.
USGA is 30 years too late. I'll still never understand how they came up with arbitrary rules like a 460cc clubhead size and .83 COR which were miles different than what existed for decades. Oh well... 200-250 cc size limit and no trampoline effect allowed would have made a lot more sense. The saddest part is the new stuff doesn't make it more fun either.
Common sense would be that the driver face (hitting area) can be no wider than 3 inches and no taller than 2 inches. Cap shaft length at 44 inches. Material doesn't matter.... but no significant trampoline faces. Simple enough. You are right... it's not more fun. It's actually less fun. Certainly less interesting and articulate.
There are plenty of forged clubs today. 'forged' on a modern club does not refer to carbon content, at all. However, you are generally right that forging processes today are often very different than decades ago. Often, a 'forged' label on a club now means some component(s) we're forged and/or the club had at least one forging process.
The bottom line is.. the older forged clubs had softer metal and hence much more pliable for bending and customizing lofts and lie angles in a vice. Any modern so called "forged" blade I have worked on are very brittle and hard, and often crack in the vice. I won't work on them anymore.
@@lagpressure sure, I'm just correcting an inaccuracy in the video. The forgings are very different, no argument there.
@@PlayVintageGolf It's been ten years or so.. but it's my recollection from a conversation with a clubmaker that many of the modern clubmakers are claiming their irons are "forged" when they are in fact not .... not by the proper traditional forging process.... heated to pliable temp.. then pressed into form. Some companies were melting the metal into liquid.. but deducting in a way that had lower carbon content.. as a forged club.. and then using that as their rational for calling it "forged". I can't confirm this or not with direct knowledge, but I do know that working on these clubs (newer) that they are very brittle and breaking often in the vice.. just like a cast club would do. So my experience "direct" is that something is in fact different...and would seem to be in line with what I had been told.
@@lagpressure Manufacturers still make dies for forgings and press the metal into shape. Some do what you might call a 'true forging.' though they often use steel with lower carbon content than they used to. As I mentioned, some multi-component clubs only have certain components forged. While it's legal for a company to advertise them as forged, the whole head was not forged in one piece as was traditionally done long ago. Some companies do a watered down forging where they cast it and then do one or two presses in a forge. So again, not at all what you would find in a traditional forging. The list goes on, but the idea someone can advertise it as forged solely based on carbon content is false. Forging by definition is a manufacturing process and not a material property. It would be illegal advertising to claim it's forged without a forging process. Lastly, whether it breaks in a bending machine has less to do with forged vs not forged than people think. You can cast clubs that bend very easily, they just don't because it's not a key design requirement. Arias, for example, bent one of their cast clubs 10*either way - they have a video on KZread demonstrating that. Most modern clubs don't comfortably bend more than a few degrees as you already noted.
Thanks for sharing your content. I found this video on transition and the video on release (Swinger vs Hitter) to be very helpful when trying to duplicate Hogan's, Trevino, & Snead's swing. I played yesterday and to get into the slot I just kept telling myself to throw the medicine ball and release the forearm.
This is relatable to skiing which Knudson also loved ⛷️ When one learns how to edge the ski properly, it changes everything.
Allegedly Moe's clubs were heavily back weighted. This would add to the total weight of the club being heavier. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on back weighting.
I held Moe's clubs and they had many layers of lead tape on them... behind the sweetspot. He wasn't hitting cavity backs. His driver was 16 ounces. A different universe than what people are doing now. Hogan, Moe, Knudson, Snead.. all played very heavy gear. More mass requires less swing speed to propel the golf ball the same distance. Just basic physics stuff really.
@@lagpressure Understood, but It has been said Moe's clubs were heavily back weighted. So were Nicklaus's. Is this a positive or negative?
Daly, Nicklaus, Furyk, Duval, Finau etc. have funky swings but they would never change them. Many golfers now who chase new swings and techniques and coaches are able to win a few tournaments and reach the top but they come back to earth soon enough.
It only matters what is happening through the strike... just as the examples you have given. That being said, it DOES matter what is going on through the strike. You can't just do anything in that arena.
Ben Hogan had a flat swing. He kept his trail elbow close to his body during the swing up until the release. His swing looks very awkward and unpowerful to me. Looks are so deceiving. Great video :)
Hi John , Harrington here , enjoyed the chat on the phone last year , I miss your Dad , we had a lot of fun playing @ PVGC on Saturdays back in the day , discussing Technique , that’s really what I enjoyed the most , the guys we played with just played the game and routinely beat Ken and I , who teamed together in 4 Ball . I guess that’s why I ended up leaving my RE Business and hung up my shingle , teaching Technique became my passion ! I also enjoyed watching you play the few times we got a chance to play there at PVGC ! Thanks , John
@lagpressure Can you make this work with standard lie angles? Or would shots be more likely to go left?