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5:43 cold hard point 7:42 start of *the* most enlightening point
Godddddd, why are his grounded normals *SO slow* f7 is his fastest move (Mario’s is f3, DK’s is f5) His Ftilt is frame 15, his jab is frame 7 with a pitifully thin hitbox relative to the sword’s size, his uptilt doesn’t hit grounded opponents in front of him well, & he has the 3rd slowest dash attack in the game at frame 20 (hero’s is f21 & DDD’s is f26 💀)
It isn't a badly designed Smash list if you don't mention Ice Climbers. They have to be one of the hardest characters to balance in fighting game history.
I talk about this because to the frame data. And this is an exemple.
Smash need new patch to fix advenced character specific cheesy tech, like ice climbers Can skip neutral skip on fd.
Worst explain content ever on smash.
Icies will always be a problematic character, but they get props for being the only echo/clone fighter who actually works.
Kirby - Unsatisfied, angry Kirby main
Who’s nobody? 😂 I main him
Steve should be way lighter for example.
sheik is imo a terrible design, her fantasy of being the ultimate frame data combo super speed ninja or whatever is so heavily compensated with terrible damage and knockback on all but bouncing fish. this makes her end up feeling like your working 100 times harder for the same thing mario can do.
I never thought Min Min was broken... every time I played as her I felt like there was no way to capital on her range. That she wasn’t properly designed to achieve anything meaningful. Plus, I felt Sephiroth has good sword swings and thrusts. That pair with his magic made him feel power but still fair to play.
Probly because, with the exception of fighters that failed at conception but still got put in anyways, a lot of moves were likely put in for casuals over competitive, so the focus was on being fun over being fair. That's not to say they even got that 100% right, but at the very least I haven't seen anything that reasonably disproves the notion that their movesets are relatively fine for the super-casual to casual-but-not-quite-competitive but bad once put in a competitive environment. That could be just as much a lack of arguments as it is me not finding any, but still. I'd fully agree that they could've done some touch-ups or changes even after launch that could improve both sides of that spectrum.
i play lucario ASSHOLE
Saying that Icies have +3s, not just a single but multiple according to you, completely ruined any validity this video had.
One thing that you kind of allude to but I think warrants elaboration is that this video's definitions of "well-designed" and "badly designed" are focused on competitive play. An important difference between Smash Bros and something like League of Legends is that Smash Bros isn't exclusively - or even, I'd argue, primarily - designed as a competitive game. It has other goals and priorities that the designers have to take into account. Steve is, I think, a good case study. From a competitive perspective, he's a nightmare, an absolutely unfair character who breaks the rules of the game in ways that allow a skilled player to completely dominate the field. But for a casual player, Steve provides a completely unique moveset that allows and rewards creative play, while adding to a new element to the chaos that makes multi-player items-on games fun. I also think his moveset does a really good job of translating the spirit of his game of origin into Smash Bros (speaking, admittedly, as someone who hasn't played Minecraft in years), which is an important design goal for a series that is, first and foremost, a big crossover. Which isn't to say that Steve being broken in competitive isn't a failure of design - Smash Bros is still a competitive game, even while also being a wacky, chaotic party game and a dorky, indulgent crossover. It's just worth remembering that, even more-so than most games, this is really hard to get 100% right, and the fact that Ultimate hits more often than it misses, on all fronts, is a laudable achievement on the part of the devs.
Who?
I'm glad you weren't designing this game
Honestly, i feel like most players would do better ignoring tier lists (and videos like this) and just trying to be better. Really you can beat most people if you're just a good player regardless of character (untill you're at the top level)
In terms of badly designed characters, little mac is definitely up there. Probably the most lopsided character in the whole game in terms of ground vs air game. It was done intentionally, and it makes sense for his character and series, but it also means that he's eternally punished to bottom tier, and he's not even fun to play as or against, since it just leads to smart players trying to camp little mac out and get him off stage. It might be fun to watch him win but for most characters playing against him, you're choosing to lose.
i love playing as plant and i think they're on of the most fun characters in the game, but also, they feel like they were supposed to be a shieldbreak character, but all their moves shieldpoke. or maybe that classifies more under weird implementation.
Whew don’t get me started on Lucas. You can compare him to Ness alone and see how underpowered he is to the rest of the cast. He’s not a zoner, pk fire isn’t the best for camping as opposed to others with it’s linearity, startup and landing lag. Zair is great for zoning but it can only get you so far in most MUs, and djc input is so tight. And there’s pk freeze…. yeah. Overall he’s not the best zoner. As a brawler, he’s got nice “combos” but his stubby limbs don’t get him far as far as oos options. Ftilt is awesome, but that’s about it. Nair doesn’t work, it’s inconsistent with positioning, it’s got mediocre startup, crazy landing lag (punishable but many smash attacks), it’s tiny not being disjointed until the very end, can be punished halfway through by a lot of characters if they dodge the first hit, and can’t even combo reliably due to sdi. Why? Ness can combo and kill easily with his, but Lucas suffers. He’s good off stage but who isn’t? Ness Thunder kills at like 30, Lucas’s goes a bit further for recovery, but kills around 160 and can be sdi’ed. Lucas Up air is minuscule, but combos into itself with a lot of effort in comparison to Ness combing you with up airs to 40 no problem, not to mention killing MUCH earlier. Down throw, completely useless. Up tilt, why is it so small and unrewarding. Magnetic has no utility anymore. The worst offender is upsmash. It used to reach the top platform in brawl, now it tickles someone if they’re slightly above you. There are a good handful of moves that kill too early with minimal risk, Luigi up b, power geyser, Kazuya electric upper or whatever it’s called for example, there is no reason I should manage to hit one of thee slowest moves in the game and they don’t die at 70. Should I miss they have the chance to hit me with nearly anything, idc about the i frames because they’re so situational. Most up good up smashs kill at 90, look at g&w and Bowser, and c Falcon. He’s been questionably nerfed many times though out his appearances but I genuinely have no clue why. He has no game plan now and was a semi grappler in smash 4. In ult, Lucas is a conglomeration on mediocre moves, I’m not sure what they had planned for him.
Are you implying you are better than Daddy Sakurai?
I feel like they over played the slowness of sephiroth as he is slow over all but the range allows him to start the moves before others are even in hitting distance as well totally disregarding his own critera as sephiroth has a good game plan and there is counter play he may not be totally busted but thats good balance
It’s really tough to concretely classify “bad design”. I feel there’s a lot of characters that have aspects that make them badly designed. I might reword it as bad design choices on each character. That being said, I think Little Max in general is terrible design (Sorry peanut lol). The very idea of a fighter being good on the ground and not in the air seems antithetical to a platform fighter.
Terry was my main on KOF games, is is awesome how they made him into smash. Most of his 1-2 combos works like on his original game
…Why does KZread know I’m a Lucario main-?
To be fair, it makes total sense that Palutena's kit is not too flashy, and entirely practical and yet powerful, considering that her classical mythology counterpart is the goddess of wisdom and warfare.
This game is way, WAY too fast-paced for me to plan and strategize Olimar's current, and up&coming pickmen. I straight up do not have the brain speed & reaction speed for it.
Min min is designed for ramen and being best girl
Imagine update fighters in features. It could be same.
"many pros consider him a top tier" meanwhile him at bottom 15.
(Very sorry for the whole essay I wrote I’m very passionate about this) Thank you so much for adding Sephiroth here and talking about his problems, he’s my favorite character in literally anything from one of my favorite games and I mained him for a while just for that reason, but dear god playing that man feels like a constant losing battle, and not in a fun way like Pichu or even like Hero (current main, idk I switch like every few months) where you have that explosiveness/solid game plan to know how you’re gonna approach a fight or what to expect. Playing Sephiroth legitimately feels like a CONSTANT struggle because his game plan is just inherently flawed, and not even with the whole “low weight so he can’t abuse wing” thing, though I’ll get to that. Like you mention, because of the lack of coverage of his moves, he just fails to effectively wall out space like a normal character, assuming the match is neutral and he has center he has to use his worst overall frame data in the game moves to commit to covering ONE spot, and sometimes you’ll guess right and the move still whiffs because it’s too damn thin. Range is good and all but again, the coverage is so low that you’re worse off than typical swordies, or even just normal characters because his moves are double digits unsafe mostly. Frame data matters, it matters a lot, and even characters also associated with bad frame data like Byleth or effectively wall out better than Sephiroth because their moves just end faster, they can have more hitboxes out in a given time, hitboxes that don’t need a phd to line up properly as well, and when done properly it works well as a game plan of using my your big aerials to cover space and then punish accordingly with dash backs, jumps, burst options, etc. Sephiroth in theory should be able to do this, but his frame data means the opponent just, has time to get through, sometimes very easily, and his moves are so precise that instead of throwing out a move, and punishing accordingly, you are throwing out a move as just a pure guess of if it hits, and if not he’s instantly in a rough spot because of his lack of oos options, so he ends up dashing back to the corner, where he will die early because of his weight, he has some whiff punishing tools in this scenario like dash back f tilt or retreating up air, but they overlap with his general spacing tools so much that it’s just repeating the same interaction where he is much more likely to lose (just wanna point out Byleth fair is MINUS 6, while Sephiroth is stuck with -10, huge difference). Speaking of his weight, wtf were they thinking? I think the frame data was overtuned and resulted in a game plan that barely feels like it barely functions, but I could maybe get past it if the punishment for losing these interactions wasn’t SO harsh, especially when his own kill power is wildly inconsistent, sometimes killing at 60% and other times not taking a stock until past 150%. Yes I know he has wing, but frankly, I would’ve much preferred a character who dies at normal percents with a less good comeback mechanic, than have the comeback mechanic be insane but sometimes never get it. Now, wing is very good for Sephiroth, his game plan actually starts getting much better with a bit better safety and more importantly, one of the fastest dash speeds in the game, letting him effectively use space better. But, is that really a good thing for a character, in terms of design? Wing is a mechanic designed not to be overused, you get one a stock, it goes away typically when taking one, and he gets it when he’s at late percents (assuming he hasn’t died already) and wing itself doesn’t offer new OPTIONS really, besides the extra jump, rather it just improves his current goals. So what you’ve got is a comeback mechanic that isn’t fun for the Sephiroth player to actually use, since you barely get to utilize it a lot of the time, and it just doesn’t have the same feel of impact as Arsene or Go! in my opinion, Arsene gives whole new properties, new sound effects, Go! changes how Terry punishes people, wing makes Sephiroth… function, finally, but just for a moment. And frankly, his frame data is still so bad that wing still doesn’t save him a lot of the time. So what are we left with, we are left with a character who, to me at least, doesn’t play how you would expect him to. Rather than walking opponents out with his sword and controlling space super well, Sephiroth most of the time is limited to guessing over and over with his spacing tools, and his neutral takes more advantage of nair. Nair is the one move where I like what they did personally, it’s the one thing saving this character, but now we have a character who is using snaps aggressively hoping to not get up smash oos’d at 70% and dying… while hold a sword taller than him in his other hand. It’s frankly just, not a satisfying why to play, we have enough characters spamming nair on shield and occasionally mixing in grabs. His grab sucks btw, good combo throws at least which feel nice, but I have a problem with grab ranges as a whole in ultimate so that’s more just a game thing. I could talk more about specific things that infuriate me, like how middle sweet spots suck, dash attack being so fake as a kill move, and shadow flare being such a miss on the devs part, but I’ve made my point. I would love a world where Sephiroth is how I, and I imagine many other people, pictured him to turn out. Let the giant sword character have giant sword moves, let him have not smash 4 frame data while ALSO being Kirby weight, I think one or the other honestly works fine because it’s fine for him to have a defiant weakness, but having both issues is just a death sentence for him as a fighter. Did I need to make this so long? Probably not, I just wish this character was fun but he’s just, not, and it makes me sad. I’m so tired oh god Edit: ALSO, YOU CAN NOT ADD SEPHIROTH THE WAY HE IS IN THE GAME WHEN MIN MIN WAS ADDED 9 MONTHS EARLIER, THAT IS NOT FAIR. I’d honestly go as far as to say, WITH WHAT THE DEVS WERE GIVEN, Min Min was done better than Sephiroth (hear me out) because she actually plays how you would expect, she actually walls you out and that’s the selling point of her, awesome. The issue with Min Min is that she should’ve just never been added in the first place because a character THAT extreme straight up isn’t fun or healthy for the game at all 👍
Damn bro that’s a lot of words, but yea you make some good points even though I didn’t read it all. Sephiroth was done dirty sadly and no logical reason or anything about why they made Sephiroth a lightweight I mean seriously
Surprised doctor mario didn't show up on this list, I cannot stand his design. I main Mario and I love how intuitive and smooth his kit feels and playing the pharmaceutical echo feels like rubbing your controller with vaseline and playing in 110 degree heat, I hate how slow he is and how pathetic his jumps are. His moves don't really combo well because despite sharing almost identical animations with Mario they send at super weird angles and even if he does hit like a brick it doesn't help that he also moves like a brick. Non gameplay-wise, why the HELL is this even a character?? Builder and wedding Mario are costumes but the lab coat warranted an entire character?? Just feels so wrong to play him.
not to be that guy but - why no one plays pichu?
here’s the short version idk if anyone agrees with me, but nerfs really is the reason and the character’s moves doing damage to Pichu itself is another thing if I were to guess though this is all I can think of. I’m fairly sure I’m right about these two things but there’s more obviously that I can’t think of
Still don’t know why cloud counters EVERY SINGLE ATTACK i try with my main 😭
Sora main vs Cloud Up B irks me because of the range and knockback. But I'm not scared to approach a Cloud with full Limit because if you just read the situation it can be an easy Counterattack.
That first comment on 50% win chance is really interesting. Considering that this is their prime metric for Ultimate as well, they are just counting all games this is including casual games. Look up Sakurai's video on it before being factual wrong. Edit Nice video thoo, please do more of the badly designed characters. To really milk the content you should do one of the big 5 you have left per video :)
I admittedly was part of the hurtbox fear club....but i love the character so much that I decided to play him in Ultimate when I got it and im having a blast. Him/Sora are so much fun to me cuz of the floatiness I always saw it as a huge benefit if you could play safe and DI well
Screw Diddy! He sux
Diddy Kong doesn’t suck what? Tweek is a prominent Diddy Kong player and displays insane advantage state / shows that the character definitely doesn’t suck if you put time into learning the character well
@@FateSSB Op is tripping
@@STONKS_MemeMan bro for real even I picked up Diddy Kong as a main cuz of Tweek and I’m also trying to learn Tweek gameplay and implement a bunch of his combos into my games cuz I find Tweek to be hype af like there’s so many possibilities for combos and potential for like ledgetrapping still trying to learn not saying I’m great yet or I’ll ever be that great cuz I don’t wanna have an ego but learning from him is so fun
disliked, there are at least 80% of the roster that should be in this video. Cant wait for the next smash
Steve: exists
Little Mac is badly designed. He has no air. And is one of the worst characters in the game. If he is knocked away from the stage even an inch he is doomed to waste his precious jumps. Oh and his aerials are awul.
Agreed they have to play way too well and the good advantage state of Little Mac doesn’t matter when a single neutral loss can result in getting edgeguarded as Little Mac and they suck versus top tiers obviously too like Steve or Sonic
Sonic & Kazuya needs a rework - Sonic just needs a completely new moveset & move on from constantly doing Spin Dashes, something like how PM/P+ Sonic had been redesigned to be a rushdown combo character - Because Tekken 8 introduced the new Heat system & Rage Drives are gone, they can replace Tekken Rage with the Heat system for Kazuya & basically works the same way: you can use Heat any time you want, but you can only activate it once & when you run out of Heat, you can't make use of Heat until you lose a stock. The Heat system will work like in Tekken 8 (that said they just need to tone down certain moves of Kazuya that deals big shield damage), maybe make Kazuya's frame data temporarily be on par with the Smash characters, basically quicker & certain moves are powered up, but using certain Heat moves will deplete the Heat meter (which is how it works in Tekken 8). Kazuya, being a fighting game character like Ryu, Ken, & Terry, can be balanced As for Min Min, Steve, & Sephiroth, they can't be a Smash fighter given their design philosophy Honestly, Bayonetta's another one in this list. She's still viable in Ultimate, but she's not fun to play as nor play against. She's like Min Min, Steve, & Kazuya where Bayonetta plays exactly like she does in her games, which is hack & slash, hence why she was broken in Smash 4. This kind of design direction have been polarizing & flawed lately. Fighters Pass 1 was alright & then Fighters Pass 2 tossed the balancing off the window).
Zelda is a badly-designed character in Smash. From my experience, she only has 2 reliable playstyles: camping and camping with style. Her toolkit relies too heavily on spawning a darknut (I think that's what they're called) and hoping her opponent is dumb enough to charge head-first without thinking. Basically, she's B-button the character. Ever since she and Sheik were separated, Zelda became one of the third wheels of the roster. I'm sure I might have pissed off all 5 Zelda mains in the world with this comment.
Not really badly designed, camping alone doesn’t really make a character badly designed and I’m not a Zelda main btw just pointing out that if camping alone is bad design then Mii Gunner is badly designed and not Zelda cuz they don’t only camp
@@FateSSB In my defense, maybe my region has braindead Zelda players.
@@princegoatcheese9379 Understandable if that’s how it is and I’m not exactly the best at fighting them either though I only play online so that could be a factor though I prefer not to make excuses cuz I know I can beat Zelda if they’re not a pro player or a lot better than me usually I can take a Zelda down who camps and honestly the biggest problem for me is fighting laggy Zelda on wifi or Mii Gunner would be even worse but thankfully I don’t run into laggy degenerate Mii Gunner’s ever maybe if I’m unlucky as hell cuz usually they’re not laggy too
12:46 that squirtle got DUNKED ON
Ngl, Sora should be here. I know the devs cooked with him, he's pretty solid, but you can't give a character with the best recovery and really good air game possibly one of the easiest TODs that works on the entire roster regardless of percent or stage
Noops are not easy. Actually play sora before saying this nonsense.
@dave9515 hey, I'm not saying it is easy, it's just the easiest one
I hate korrin idk why
love this video idea. If you do it again, Mac, Steve, Ganon defo need including
only saw the thumbnail and have the urge to say i love sephs design
Minmin’s arms should’ve had hurt boxes SMH. As far as other badly designed characters go, an argument can be made for any bottom tier character, with my bias leaning toward improving ganon and king dedede.