"Why is the game dying" -Shows 90% STEVE clips

@CuteRedPanda64

5 ай бұрын

Why do I keep forgetting Steve is in the game?

@Yarharsuperpirate

5 ай бұрын

@@CuteRedPanda64 Because we all want to forget Steve is in the game. As said in the video, He's BORING to play against and nobody likes watching him in a match. So people tend to walk away

@henrysmithpham4587

5 ай бұрын

@@Yarharsuperpiratenot to mention he’s literally so overpowered it’s not even funny. So many things he can do that he was never supposed to be able to do

@varietychan

5 ай бұрын

​@@Yarharsuperpirateit's not boring to play against him, it's the fact that he has a major bug that ruins him

@N12015

5 ай бұрын

@@Yarharsuperpirate Almost as if he deserved to be banned for the health of the game...

I’m gonna say it. The death of the circuits was one of the biggest losses in the scene. Can’t believe we had two and both of them went down…

@Jinxypoo100

5 ай бұрын

What’s the circuits

@cyrrus_lite2796

5 ай бұрын

@@Jinxypoo100VG boot camp was a big one

@smashmonkey6304

5 ай бұрын

Community deserves all the blame for that. No reason Panda had to die. Community made their grave and they have to lie in it

@defscanvas7633

5 ай бұрын

@@smashmonkey6304not updated with the drama. What did the community do?

@jayandjlps8022

5 ай бұрын

Same can be said for the twin towers

For me personally, I lost interest because the game just never felt like it had an end goal to keep me playing, the community got annoying, the terrible online, and the game just felt very binary in solutions to problems without much room for creativity and expression compared to some previous games.

@LeZagna

5 ай бұрын

Didn't expect to see someone mention this. This is absolutely the reason Melee is still around, not just because it's fast and difficult. The parts that make it difficult are fun and create endless replayability. In Ultimate, the lack of aerial momentum conservation, SDI (compared to Melee), DI, hitstun, etc. All make every interaction feel "sanitized" and everything is intended rather than emergent. Casually, Ultimate is still a total blast though.

@UltimateTS64

5 ай бұрын

@LeZagna Yeah, I completely agree. I'm dogwater at Melee, but I understand those concepts and know how they affect the gameplay to create the gameplay that it does. I used to play Ultimate competitively and eventually I got to the point where I got frustrated with the very A and B nature of the game. Call it a skill issue, but I just stopped having fun and started getting frustrated when I would lose sets because I so much as tapped Game and Watch's shield or something dumb like that. My other issues were: 1. The buffer system still feels awkward and caused a lot of unnecessary misinputs. 2. No advanced movement options to allow player expression and increase advantage. 3. The sticky platforms feel more like a hindrance than an aid.

@megamillion5852

5 ай бұрын

@@UltimateTS64 It's good to know I'm not the only one who still finds the buffer system uncomfortable. While I've recently again found the fun in Ultimate, (and yes, this has been a repeated process) I still find it difficult to understand not only how the devs found it acceptable, but why no one seems to mention it enough. Though, maybe that second part is on me, as I don't participate in forums, nor really engage with the fandom. And I can agree with your other points as well. Despite going in with all the energy and hype one could imagine, the game mostly feels like a regret purchase for me, and that is something I never thought I'd feel about Smash. The series has simply been on a path of diminishing returns ever since it came back with Smash U/3DS.

@UltimateTS64

5 ай бұрын

@megamillion5852 There are times when I get really comfortable with it and don't notice it, but a lot of the time, when I hop back in after a long time, it feels so off. I don't regret buying the game and all the DLC. It's the one game I've ever spent that much time on. Just on my console alone, I spent just over 1,400 hours on it, but if I counted times playing with friends on their consoles and going to tournaments, I've probably put well over 2,000 hours into the game. The game brought me a LOT of good memories and even helped me to found the esports club of my high school back during my junior year. It's just now I'm in a new phase of life, and Smash just isn't as much a part of it. Still have a soft spot for it, but it's just not in my main rotation of games anymore.

@charc0al_tv

5 ай бұрын

Come over to melee :) the online is great

I think COVID, the scandals, and lack of support by Nintendo is what ultimately (no pun intended) caused the decline of Ultimate’s competitive scene.

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

They saw melee players dropping the game at 18 didn't like the optics, so they dropped it at 5 not realizing that's way worse.

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

​@@omegahaxors3306i don't get it

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

@@salvadorhenriquez4091 smash pros being outed as predators

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

@@omegahaxors3306 OHHH. ☠️☠️☠️

@OrangePandaBear1

4 ай бұрын

You intended that pun you liar

"Why is Smash dying ?" > Online doesn't work > Nintendo isn't friendly with competition > No Content, no patch, no new meta > Salty community > Steve

@sargentflippy9941

12 күн бұрын

Damn putting Steve right after salty community is…yikes lol

@HNblaz

12 күн бұрын

@@sargentflippy9941 Steve is objectively VERY good, technically there are impossible MUs against him. He's not banned in my region and I'm okay with that, we all joke together when the number one is ALWAYS the same Steve player lol, he jokes about it too ! Now the salty community part is the part where people blame the player, and not the character : Sonic, Yoshi, Min Min and other characters suffer from this as well... And that is a big part as why is the game dying

@sargentflippy9941

12 күн бұрын

@@HNblaz well yeah playing against sonic and min min is pretty awful sooooooo

I'd add that the netcode and online play experience is pretty bad. Usually less community actively playing means less viewers, interest and popularity

@TheyCallMeIce

5 ай бұрын

Afaik Smash Bros is the only fighting game with delay-based netcode, instead of rollback (I am an idiot, though, so don't quote me on that). Coupled with how GARBAGE Nintendo's implementation of it is*, how you have to PAY a monthly subscription (pure evil) to have the ""privilege"" of online play (something that is FREE in PC games) which gives those who don't earn money from the game a harder time justifying playing, and on top of everything, how you're not even guaranteed to finish a match because rage quitting gets you no more than a slap on the wrist, and it's a wonder how anyone endures the wonderful online experience. *For context, I've had a better experience fighting others on MINECRAFT servers to which I have a 500+ ms ping, than I did playing with my friend who lives like half an hour away.

@kevingriffith6011

5 ай бұрын

@@TheyCallMeIce Up until like... two months ago the only modern fighting game that had Delay-based netcode was Dragonball FigherZ, and they JUST got rollback netcode.

@theelectricant98

5 ай бұрын

💯

@----x-----

5 ай бұрын

for real every time I try to give smash another try I immediately realize why it sucks so much, the lag is unbearable

@emarythomp

5 ай бұрын

I almost feel like the delay got worse in the last few months like they’re throttling the speeds.

I think the reason why ultimate is dying is because of how the meta is right now where it’s camp or be camped. Either the most optimal way to play your character would be to camp (Steve, Sonic, Min Min) or to have to camp the opponent due to how volatile approaching them would be (Rob, Kazuya). So in recent smash ultimate game times are much MUCH longer simply because of how favorable camping is rn.

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

The fact that they saw touch of death characters like Luigi and said "we need more of that" is completely astonishing. ZtDs completely invalidate a majority of the core design of smash by allowing one character to turn 1 mistake into a cheap combo.

@RTU130

5 ай бұрын

Ye

@_user0_

5 ай бұрын

I didn’t know it was dead I was gonna buy it 😒

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

@@_user0_ Just the competitive scene. Casual is not affected by high level play.

@StealthFoxx_

5 ай бұрын

It's not even just camping, there are characters like GnW, Steve, Pythra, and ROB who can misplay in a multitude of ways and not be punished. You have to work your ass off to beat degenerate playstyles, and it's demotivating when trying to learn a hard/fun character you like that isn't really meta to think "wow, I could just play an easier and better character and not have to work this hard" (no offense to anyone who plays those characters, this is more so a shot at the balancing team not nerfing some of the stronger characters)

I saw Coney's recent video, where he talked about how the competitive ruleset affects viewership and gameplay. I will attempt to both summarise his points and expand on them in my own words here: - The stage list is too similar, most legal stages are the same stage with small practical changes between them. - Our stages help promote keep away playstyles by giving characters a lot of space, making it more difficult to close the gap - Best of five sets make games longer and as a result promote viewer exhaustion. Therefore, we change the cut-off point for best of 5. - Our Ruleset is outdated, most of ultimate rules were created in the first year of the game's lifecycle. We are now in year 5. I thought this was interesting video, mostly because of how it suggests that we might need to take more "radical" action to create renewed interest.

@rei3951

5 ай бұрын

The rule set of ultimate being outdated is way too true cause it’s basically taking cues from melee’s version that was standardised over a decade ago

@erickalvarez6486

5 ай бұрын

Coney does not compete, stages has nothing to do with viewership

@Rubyfire41

5 ай бұрын

​@@erickalvarez6486Yes it does. It's one of many factors that make watching/playing Ultimate interesting, and you don't need to compete to understand this.

@heartnet40

5 ай бұрын

​@@rei3951 What makes this more poigant is that Melee got it's stage list over like a decade after playtesting. Hell, some places are still debating on freezing PS2 or not. And just recently, off-circuit professional tournaments started adding more complicated stages onto the roster which means even now Melee is making adjustments to its ruleset. The only changes Ultimate has are ones that *take away* stages. That is just insane.

@Hypeman10

5 ай бұрын

MORE SQUAD STRIKE

Steve and Sonic, no wants to see a block man build a house and place down more blocks and a blue hedgehog spin dash canceling for 7 minutes every game...

@joel-o4020

5 ай бұрын

Peak fighting game right here :)

@alexfpower

4 ай бұрын

Lovee me some sonic.

@Sweet__Violet

4 ай бұрын

Let’s not forget about Hero and Sephiroth with the camping

@weaponx6345

3 ай бұрын

you're a child bro ofc you love sonic @@alexfpower

@rumblebird9888

3 ай бұрын

Steve vs Sonic is Jigglypuff Vs Ice climbers of the game

So in summary: ● the game is getting old ●there isn't much new casually ouside of fighting new people online ●The competitive meta is getting kinda boring ●balance patches are over ●only new content that is confirmed is patching in sora's amiibo data and more spirits (not alot of people care about spirits nor amiibos)

@bennel3588

3 ай бұрын

I remember I got a Kirby amiibo. I was hoping that I can play as it, but I cannot play the amiibo character. I was disappointed. I wonder if the same goes for Ultimate, because I never tested it out for Ultimate. I tested it out on For 3DS and Wii U.

I think one of the big reasons in my opinion is that some players get too infuriated by the online play to want to continue playing. They're sick of having to lose because what they cant control heavily outweighs what they can control.

@wifi961

4 ай бұрын

Oh, maybe they should get good then.

@dhans9662

4 ай бұрын

@@wifi961 you completely missed the point, unless that was a joke?

@glitchyone2531

4 ай бұрын

@@wifi961 typical anwser, gEt GuD

@Legogreens

3 ай бұрын

​@@wifi961No, they instead get gud ... At a different game that doesn't treat their time in a deplorable way

@wifi961

3 ай бұрын

@@Legogreens What like Jenshin Impact?

The Lack of Updates is the biggest reason. Even without the Smash World Tour, we would be stuck with this meta and with a game that lacks any good casual content and generally has a lot of issues (Terrible Online, Buffering System, Input Delay, Sticky Platforms, Everything being too safe and mashy, etc)

@mac_chappy

5 ай бұрын

Thank you! This is my biggest issue! Glad somebody mentioned this. If those things were fixed the game would be more enjoyable.

@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63

5 ай бұрын

Even as a competitive player I would kill for a subspace emissary type DLC.

@mac_chappy

5 ай бұрын

@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 sakurai already mentioned that will never happen again. Back when people posted it on KZread for Brawl he was not pleased.

@aprinnyonbreak1290

5 ай бұрын

Lack of casual content is what doomed the game imo. There's nothing like Smash Run to mix up what playing Smash is like, World of Light stops being fun partway through a first pass, let alone a second. You kill one bundle of effects you didn't read in 2 seconds, you have experienced what killing the next 200 will be like. Spirit Board is kinda lmao, and Classic mode is... fine, but limited. There's nothing to really "do", and importantly, there's nothing that is different enough to equalize player skill a bit. The problem with Smash Ultimate is that the only thing to really "do" unless you have friends on hand right now, is go grind multiplayer matchmaking, and the only thing to do with friends is more of that, with maybe squad strike, smashdown, or amibos to mix it up. This means, someone who just wants to play some Smash basically has no choice but to go grind competitive, raising their skill level out of range of their actual friends, meaning the game is now unplayable in that context. There's basically nothing to level out this skill gap, and no way to avoid stressing it if you want to play the game. Icing on the cake, while at high skill levels, many characters are perfectly fine, at intermediate ones, the DLC premium crust is almost unstomachable. This combination of factors basically kills any casual retention for the game, and competitive itself is still out of reach for most intermediate players... leading to the situation where the average person who likes smash can't play it. Too good to play with friends, not good or sweaty enough to play competitive, and nothing about the game facilitates this being rectified or finding a middle ground.

@VarsIII

5 ай бұрын

WAIT. IS THIS NEFBEAR?!

Doesn’t “Everyone has a chance of beating everyone” contradict “invalidating most of the roster from doing what they want to do”? I haven’t been keeping a close eye on the meta, but I got the impression that most characters can’t be solo mains anymore because they CAN’T beat everyone no matter how hard you try.

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

I think there's definitely some truth to that because While yes you can beat anyone with almost anyone, that's the bare minimum of balancing and that's only because the opponent your playing against is far worse. the reality is the only thing keeping many characters in the game viable is a player made ruleset and setting that specifically allows that

@Topunito

5 ай бұрын

I think he was referring to players there, not characters.

@jerm-gv9rv

4 ай бұрын

Yes while it’s always possible to beat someone if you play hard enough The actual effort required to counter that strategy is NOT equal or even close to the effort required to simply initiate it Like if you have to basically play near perfectly or always twice as good as your opponent to win then that’s usually a balancing issue

@weaponx6345

3 ай бұрын

yea try being pac man against a fucking high level cloud or any swordie for that matter. You can't solo main that yellow piece of shit because of how bad the mu are. No one wants to invest 1000 hours into playing pac man just to beat a fucking swordie.

1. The game is unfinished. Why do you think people say we need a new fighter pass, or a new update, or even a new game? It's because they know or they feel that the game just isn't complete. It isn't a complete experience, something needs to be remedied. You don't really see this with melee(I'm going to being drawing comparisons to melee since it's the other popular smash game). The melee community has seen a host of mods that do balance changes, or add characters and stages. All of these mods get some fanfare and then the community gets back to the base game. Melee players love their game, that's why they grind it out like psychos, how they keep discovering and perfecting new techniques 20 years after its release. 2. I think ultimate fundamentally was designed with an awareness of the competitive scene and a desire against allowing what melee evolved into. Melee was designed with competitive play as an afterthought, and somewhat by accident became an amazingly deep game. The devs were simply ignorant to what the future would be if they left in wavedashing, or shield dropping, or allowing jump out of shine, or jump canceling, etc. To them they were just little quirks that players might encounter from time to time. Ever since then Nintendo has been trying to constrain what you can do in smash. Ultimate saw some new tech added, but also some removed, and some long lost tech still left out. The bottom line is that this kind of game design limits player expression, it also limits the community's ability to self balance the game. The reason the tier list in melee keeps on changing is that as methods of player expression change, are refined, or new ones are discovered, new characters become viable. Melee saw young link go from a joke character to a serious secondary used to counter one of the best characters in the game(puff) to now being a joke characters again but with some fun stuff in his bag post optimization. All of that without any balance updates. And it's only possible because in melee there are way fewer guard rails on the way you can play the game. Idk why Nintendo is so scared of giving players the freedom to play how they want to play. I love ultimate in some many ways, but goddammit I wish there was just a bit more hit stun. Not even melee levels, but enough to allow more player expression through combos. I wish there was ledge hogging. I wish the game was a bit more weighty. Fuck, if Nintendo won't make the balance changes themselves then allow us to make custom modes where we can change all these parameters, gravity, character weight, knockback, hitstun, launch angle. But no, they're so arrogant, the game as they have made it is the way it has to be, even if it is in a state of wasted potential. I think that's the most frustrating thing. Everyone can see how much potential there is, how close we were to the universal smash. I mean when it first came out it really did unite the communities, we had top players from melee and smash 4 competing at majors and placing in the top 8. It was probably the best time for smash since it returned to Evo. But the games potential was never fully realized, the melee players returned home to their game that they love, and the former smash 4 players were stuck playing the latest entry as the quality and excitement of gameplay slowly deteriorated. I'm tired of melee yall, I mean I love it but its not a perfect game, I wish ultimate could have been the game that picked up where melee left off and really showed how good a smash game could be. But we'll probably never get that, at least not from nintendo.

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

The worst part was how they removed the ability to run past your opponent

Ive read quite a few comments but no one has talked bout this But i think the biggest reason for its fall is the garbage online, its soo bad that i just dont feel like playing...ever, sm4sh had better online, I feel people underestimate the impact of casual fans trying to improve and get into competitive, but due to lack of a local community they have use online and that just starts a cycle of hating the game into eventually quitting

@Matanumi

5 ай бұрын

Really its that the updates stopped

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

That's kinda true but if the updates never adress the core problem of smash, which it's objectively bad online then it was going end up dying fast

@sinchill5424

5 ай бұрын

Honestly, I don’t understand why people say the online is so bad. Sure there is some lag every now and then, but I routinely play online with zero issue. What do you find so bad about online?

@planti61

5 ай бұрын

@@sinchill5424horrible input lag is my main problem

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

@sinchill5424 Prefered rules Lack of a punishment system as well as terrible ranking system Means a lot of times you'll get a match with a shitty Ruleset u didn't want or a shitty match where the enemy player or players are toxic or ragequit and don't get punished and terrible ranking system means there's a good chance the match was decided from the start

Meta is absolutely cooked Sonic and Steve are overturned

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

There's fun unbalanced then there's nothing happening for half the round unbalanced.

@sephirotten2413

4 ай бұрын

I say we gotta think sonix for that

Crazy amount of characters sure, but I think there's a few engine/game level issues holding Ult back. Unacceptable input lag and online net code, no ranked competitive ruleset matchmaking, hold input buffer way too long, no ability to toggle short hop macro, wave dashing and other movement techniques purposefully taken out, and no balance patches anymore to fix broken stuff like Steve tech makes the game feel a bit too sterile and probably unfair/frustrating competitively. If those things were changed and Nintendo wasn't seemingly trying to kill competitive play it would probably last a very long time.

@joel-o4020

5 ай бұрын

My thoughts exactly

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

Remember that Nintendo actually tried to build a healthy scene, but the community was always doing their own stuff and going the opposite way of what Nintendo wanted

@sephirotten2413

4 ай бұрын

@@salvadorhenriquez4091 nintendo never wanted smash to be competitive

@salvadorhenriquez4091

4 ай бұрын

@@sephirotten2413 maybe at some moment they thought otherwise

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

They also removed the ability to run through other characters

Between lack of updates, anti-support from Nintendo and frustrating gameplay patterns (Steve and Sonic come to mind), It's no wonder why it's losing popularity... Wait, did you talked about the same? I guess it's really a resounding feeling. Then again, the own community can easily shut down the scene due to being way too impulsive (Do you remember Panda?), so maybe it was doomed from the beginning. That's factor 4: *The community doesn't want to mature and grow.*

@nikkobird590

5 ай бұрын

Welp time for me to move to a new fighting game 🗿

@jacobstewart9139

5 ай бұрын

Most people who play it are video addicted man children, why do you think it lacks maturity?!? Most pro video gamers, or people who spend copious amounts of time on them, are immature because video games universally detract from real-life maturity. Very few pro gamers are legitimately mature adults.

@DrunkedOwly

5 ай бұрын

​@@jacobstewart9139 Lmao

@sakuraadachigaming

5 ай бұрын

@jacobstewart9139 lmao

@N12015

5 ай бұрын

@@jacobstewart9139 ... I'm sure that's very genre/game-reliant. Speedruns in general seem relatively healthy because the activity is taken as a sport, and I'll be honest, I rarely see issues related to less serious titles who know to mantain quality. Smash Bros., despite not having a game who is less than very good, can have very toxic community, and the main tributing factor is that is a competitive game without communication between players and developers, as well as a casual game with too much skill expression. Also, that immaturity kind of gives Nintendo a reason to proceed with their politics, in some sort of negative feedback loop. Honestly, the reason the community isn't worse is because we have lots of respect to Sakurai, so there's no pointless hatred towards developers who likely have nothing to do with the issues... And even that aspect of idolization backfires, like how Leffen is so toxic for a whole decade (Remember the crab) yet he's forgiven because he's amazing at Melee, or how our love for GiMR made us cancel Panda.

Two main reasons. Over 5 years old and lack of updates/supports. Many players have had their fill of ultimate and have moved on to different games, likely newer games with new content on the way, if not a new installment altogether. Yes, there are multiplayer games older than ultimate that are still played by some, but that isn't what is being asked. The question is why ultimate is less popular now than when it was newer getting patches and new characters and stages continally. Not why no one at all is playing it.

Getting rid of trophies was a blow to the franchise, it was a great goal for players after they unlocked all the characters. As you unlocked more trophies, the more you learned about Nintendo’s history.

@HypercatZ

3 ай бұрын

That and trying to fool us by calling stickers "spirits" and clone characters "echo characters".

@-rlmn

22 күн бұрын

​@@HypercatZa few echoes are different (iirc some were different but aren't anymore)

Ultimate's meta is pretty frustrating rn and people aren't having enough fun with it to endure nintendo blocking out tournaments. Like the best characters in the game are steve and sonic, players don't wanna see that for years to come rip

@bennel3588

3 ай бұрын

I think that's the user's opinion. I did read dislikes on Sonic, and I do not know why people do not like playing as Sonic. I played as Sonic, and found him to be a good character to use. I do not think I have played at a very high difficulty with him. I do not want to disappoint a third party character. Sonic was in, because of Mario and Sonic crossover.

@DarkSymphony777

6 күн бұрын

@@bennel3588 answer is people don't like the fact the best way to play sonic in tournaments is camp, camp and more camp

@bennel3588

6 күн бұрын

@@DarkSymphony777 Do you know what this "camp" means?

@DarkSymphony777

6 күн бұрын

@@bennel3588 yes, camping "A term used most frequently in first-person shooter video games, "camping" refers to the act of hiding or otherwise remaining in a hidden, obscured, or safe location in order to ambush an enemy or objective, or to avoid harm." in sonic and steve's case this is more the avoid harm side of things as sonic can out run everyone else and steve's entire kit revolves around mining and placing blocks, which encourages camping to make the enemy come to you and play your game

@bennel3588

6 күн бұрын

@@DarkSymphony777 When playing as Sonic, I just take on the opponent head-on. I do not try to stay hidden. I wonder if I have to master hiding from the opponent, and then know when to attack them if I played at a max difficulty. I remember one video mentioning that Sonic is a s**tty character that should not be in the game. This video was saying characters that will not be in Super Smash Bros. It said that Crash will not be in, because all he can do is run, jump, and spin, pretty much like Sonic which is another s**tty character that should not be in. Crash and Sonic can do more than those, but Sonic is rolling instead of spinning. I did think Crash would not be in Super Smash Bros. Since he was originally owned by Sony. Activision now owns Crash, but I wonder if Nintendo is aware of what company originally owned him. I do see arguments about whether or not Crash would join Super Smash Bros. And even gave reasons why and gave reasons why not.

Ultimate answers the question: "What happens when you balance a game by giving 90 characters a single ridiculous gimmick and have them mash it?"

@HeDronHeDronHedron

5 ай бұрын

They couldn’t think of character ideas so there’s a million “character becomes better if you’re losing” characters out there

@dagimmic774

5 ай бұрын

@@HeDronHeDronHedronand yet somehow the best character in the game doesn’t have a gimmick like that.

@HeDronHeDronHedron

5 ай бұрын

⁠he’s a lame stall character which is just as bad

@DannyMeasho999

5 ай бұрын

lucario, cloud, sephiroth? who else?@@HeDronHeDronHedron

@valemontgomery9401

5 ай бұрын

No, it’s what happens when you give your DLC characters annoying and broken gimmicks

its been dead to me since realizing the game isnt meant to be competitive. it has depth and is fairly balanced, but the game even without items doesnt feel like both players are actually having a test of skill. there are too many wrong actions that work, or ways to win by accident

Another point I wanna bring up is that many Smash players are also just playing other games nowadays. Mainstream games is one thing but I've been noticing a large trend of Smash players moving onto trying other fighting games like SF6, KOFXV, and Guilty Gear Strive. With all of these new fighting games coming out soon, fighting games are experiencing a new renaissance.

@ShadowDante7

5 ай бұрын

Can confirm. Smash Bros was a huge part of my childhood, but I’ve gotten more into Street Fighter and Tekken now.

@ShadeAnris

Ай бұрын

I completely moved on to Melee and Guilty Gear myself despite being a melee hater since smash 4 lol

One thing that made 2018-2020 special was that Nintendo actually made an effort to buff/nerf characters competitively. People complaining about pichu/Olimar? They got nerfed. Prepatch Corrin was terrible? Buffed in 8.0! However I think 2021 was an underrated year for the game. We formed some concrete opinions during the online era only for them to be shattered as random characters were exploding into the meta. The game needs some more patches yeah, but I honestly think we need to look into random mid tiers. Seeing sky jay’s rising success as been exciting and honestly the sets leading up to top 8 of majors….are amazing. We just need support.

@Ratty524

5 ай бұрын

Nintendo especially needs to fix the online connectivity because playing multiplayer online with this game always feels like garbage.

@StealthFoxx_

5 ай бұрын

@@Ratty524 Pretty sure Nintendo said they'd considered implementing rollback for Ultimate at one point but concluded that it would be too much work to do worldwide, which is really sad. Not only that, but Smash Ultimate's Online connectivity is notoriously pretty crummy to begin with

Melee: Small roster of deep characters. Ultimate: Large roster of shallow characters

Nobody is forcing the game’s competitive rules on us aside from ourselves… game is dying already so before it’s completely dead, change it up Try to stagelists, add the final smash meter on or something… but spice it up for players and viewers

@linkplayer20

5 ай бұрын

This is what I've been saying for a couple years now. I'm in a couple competitive smash groups on Facebook, and this opinion got me so much flak. The worst part is some of the justifications for maintaining the status quo. "Some moves are weird on hills" is my most hated of them. Learning and playing with/against these SHOULD be part of the meta. I've suggested 3v3 squad strike to replace the current rule set for a while now because I've watched ultimates viewer counts dropping for a bit. I justified it as more engaging for viewers who don't want to watch 8 minutes of the same strats repeated over and over, and how it would encourage players to be more familiar with multiple characters while also forcing them to develop hard counter strategies. But they dog piled on me because planning more than a 1v1 matchup is too exhausting. 😮‍💨

@BronzeAgePepper

4 ай бұрын

​@@linkplayer20Squad Strike would fix so much of what's wrong with the meta. Sure it's a "bandaid fix" and you can just pick 3 lame characters for your lineup, but the fact it's built in to the game as an alternate mode means it can easily co-exist alongside the staleness of regular tournament matches.

@HypercatZ

3 ай бұрын

"Nobody is forcing the game’s competitive rules on us aside from ourselves… " Really? Have you ever tried to play the game with people online outside quick matches?

If ultimate ever gets a switch 2 port with tweaks to performance, buffer, and maybe even balance i feel like that'd be huge for the game

Sakurai may have pulled many cool, lame and impossible characters out of his ass But he forgot he had a game that needed gameplay as its focal point instead of characters and stages Its insane that Ultimate both feels like it has a lot but its still incomplete. Story mode is still bad, no trophies that felt earned, online is garbage, stage creator being limited, no new or old minigames and finally, it really needed another fighter's pass.

@SamuelJohnsonYT

5 ай бұрын

Even if it did get another Fighter's Pass it will probably be more JRPG and Fighting game characters

@-rlmn

22 күн бұрын

​@@SamuelJohnsonYTone of the biggest game genres and something that shares a genre with smash and is represented by 4-5 characters (depending if you count little mac as one)?

@SamuelJohnsonYT

22 күн бұрын

@@-rlmn yeah I guess so

One thing that doesnt get brough up much but definately killed it for me is the lack of singleplayer option variety. Ultimate went all-in on the fighting part of the platform fighter to the detriment of additional modes and incentives for solo play. In previous games you had stuff like Classic Mode, Multi-Man Smash, All-Star, Home Run Contest and Event Matches to test your combat abilities but then you also had stuff like Break The Targets, Adventure Mode and Smash Run that demanded more out of your mobility and environmental awareness. It made for a refreshing break from the non stop fighting and gave players more meat to chew on and an additional entry point into the fighting. In Ultimate the only things left are Classic, Multi-Man, All-Star(in a reduced Multi-Man Smash format) and Event Matches. All combat all the time, which would be fine in paper because there's World Of Light, a new Adventure mode but then in execution its just a bunch of pre-determined Event Matches on a map screen with no platforming to be had there either. And then the only extra mode to return ended up being Home Run Contest, another combat mode. And thats without the removal of trophies, which added an extra bit of consistent incentive and reward for playing. Its understandable why thet stopped doing it, but it leaves a gap thst Spirits just cant fill. All of these cuts and omissions result in a game that's almost entirely focused on the competitive and that needs an excessive amount of self-motivation and/or interest in purely the fighting to keep with it.

It lost the ONE thing that made it so special in my eyes and that is the roster. Yeah it is truly awesome that we have a roster bordering on MUGEN, but in truth I really don't see how that is good for any competitive game. It is awesome we got characters that were former never-evers like Ridley, extremely unexpected returns like with Pichu, but ultimately it is undermined by the fact that a lot of characters in the game are similar/outdone and thus never going to be picked, and despite being the 5th game, it still has a LOT of problems that were present in older games. -Projectiles and zoners feel too powerful or not well incorporated into the game -Balance patches were often not substantial or could've been a whole lot better -The Wifi is dreadful, with Ultimate having the absolute worst of the franchise. You at least you didn't have to pay for the Wii and Wii-U's -The input delay -Many characters feel poorly done, Daisy and Richter are just reskins, Ganondorf is still terrible for the 3rd time in a row, Sonic is still largely just reused moves from other characters, etc. And when you take away that special roster, you're left with a fairly standard smash game. Not terrible but certainly not if you think "The ULTIMATE Smash". I don't think Ultimate is a bad game, but I certainly think the community moving onto the next game will not be very difficult.

@soultheconfusing9563

4 ай бұрын

Dude it’s called smash “ultimate” because it’s the culmination of previous smashes in one it has every character from the old games plus the new ones they added freaking SORA in this lol I understand the game isn’t perfect and has its problems but the roster is definitely NOT one of them

@Krona-fb4dn

4 ай бұрын

@@soultheconfusing9563 You entirely missed the point. The roster IS the problem since its the only redeeming feature for the game and I don't even see it as a hugely redeeming one. So much of the development time for the game went to characters, Ultimate has by far the worst online experience and singleplayer content of any smash game. If the game cut say, 5-10 characters nd instead used that time to make a better singleplayer experience and/or a much better online model, things wouldn't be as bad since there's better reason to come back to the game.

@soultheconfusing9563

4 ай бұрын

@@Krona-fb4dn I feel like the smash franchise has always been about the characters the online has problems sure but it’s not like it’s a requirement to play. Also what’s wrong with the single player?

@mentlegen3887

4 ай бұрын

​@@soultheconfusing9563ngl, even the single player content is half baked, compared to previous games. No smash run or custom moves. No boss rush or boss fight gamemodes that introduce additional difficulty modifiers. Classic mode is charming I guess. No all star mode. No trophies to collect and no gallery with charming descriptions, history and 3d models to enjoy. The spirit adventure is great, but a lot of the spirit battles are very samey. New spirits released offer no new interesting abilities or interactions and theres no new spirit board content that's challenging enough to warrant me using any of my lvl99 spirits, as in it's not enjoyable because its WAY TOO EASY. Training mode is still way too limited. Considering this singleplayer content coexists with a poor multiplayer service and functionality, are you REALLY surprised that people do not think this game deserves its "ultimate" moniker.

@Krona-fb4dn

4 ай бұрын

@@soultheconfusing9563 Sure, online has only been on since Brawl and really wasn't a major feature until Smash 4. However I wouldn't expect it to become *worse* than the previous game. That's worse than stagnation since its a feature that a past product did better. ALSO its on the main menu as prominently as the other content. So it being subpar compared to them IS a problem and practically every fighting game is expected to have a serviceable online. Yet its worse than Smash 4's. -no taunts -no changing characters inbetween matches -no guarantee you'll get a match that you want, you may get matched into a time match when you want stock -people edit the rules to cheese wins instead of actually fighting you -netcode is just as bad -delay based netcode ONTOP of the natural delay the switch has offline -you have to pay fucking $20 to use it whereas the last one was free. Smash's singleplayer wasn't great and not the point, but it wasn't barren like in Ult. Spirits is a snooze. Melee had adventure mode and event matches that unlocked stuff in the game, Brawl made Subspace which was basically a huge version of adventure mode and its own event matches and unlocks and both had good classic modes. Smash 4 is where it tapered off but still had event matches, and the 3DS version had smash run, which was excellent. Ultimate's singleplayer content is very lackluster, classic mode isn't random anymore which kills replay value. Spirits is just a worse version of event mode and customs. That and the roster doesn't help much in this favor, I personally don't see people playing much outside 5-15 characters and the ubiquity of how people, not just competitive players, talk about "mains" is entirely paradoxical to a game with 80+ characters. Also unrelated from what I'm speaking, but Nintendo pulling the plug on support is also a HUGE reason I think people don't point out. Tekken 7 was a game that came out in 2015 and received support as far into 2021. More than half a decade.

The smash scene ruined itself and will never be a professional industry. The toxicity and childish bs alone is enough to scare away any sponsor

@nikkobird590

5 ай бұрын

Agreed

@lt2660

5 ай бұрын

A common but also obviously untrue talking point. Not only is this not unique to smash, but sponsors don't care either way. In fact, sponsors don't even know this is true. Sponsors are not reading the smash drama of the week, they only see the numbers and the people they directly speak to. This always reads like someone wishes this was true and has no experience in other fighting games/competitive games in general.

@zate5355

5 ай бұрын

​@@lt2660theyve been sponsored with papa johns and red bull like a year ago

@IK-yb5rn

5 ай бұрын

It’s not just the sponsors. The viewers are also tired of all the whiny community drama

@M64bros

5 ай бұрын

Exactly!

Shoutouts to Nintendo for making a Smash game that makes Smash players want to play other games Sakurai knew what was best for the fans

@calebrobinson6406

5 ай бұрын

Rivals 2?

@dwayne3191

5 ай бұрын

I’m not being dismissive of the problems Ultimate has, but relying solely on it can get repetitive after a while. At this point, I’m content with where the game is at and what it’s brought to the franchise.

@dazedd-fi4yx

5 ай бұрын

Smash Ult is so bad, it made me convert to street fighter, never going back

@omegahaxors3306

5 ай бұрын

@@dazedd-fi4yx Coming in from 4 I had such hopes for SmUsh but all of that was dashed when I learned they added in a 2 second input delay and an overzealous buffer that simultaneously made the game horrible to control while also allowing for borderline TAS exploit inputs to be cookie-cutter to execute if you had the right setup. Then they started adding in garbage unbalanced DLC characters like they did with Cloud/Bayo in 4 and at that point I was checked out of the series entirely.

@RTU130

5 ай бұрын

Yea

Old, No more updates, No new DLC, Broken Meta and characters.

@HypercatZ

3 ай бұрын

You forgot:"Lot of toxicity in the community" (Me included, I'm all but a saint). I lose:"Git gud sucker!" I win:"Your character is brocken!" I left half of the Smash Bros. Discord servers because of that. I was banned from the other half because at some point I exploded.

Being the most "successful" in sales has a lot more to do with console adoption than actual general gamer interest as indicated by the chart. The three highest selling games coincidentally are on Nintendo's most popular selling consoles, even though two of those three titles are now completely irrelevant.

This was never the pinnacle of smash. It was the best of a bad bunch of sequels to Melee. And as expected Melee will outlive it. The one true cockroach of FGC/e-sports.

Maybe because the community hates its own game and there is literally only negativity and doomer-ism left

@Bazzlieo

4 ай бұрын

That’s every pvp game though

@KLUNE

3 ай бұрын

The same happens with League of Legends and is the most successful esport on all time.

I think what Smash ultimate lacks more than anything is a star with amazing personality at the top level. If somebody like HungryBox was competing for the best player in the world title, it would make a difference. I like the top players, but none of them are that interesting. It would also help if Nintendo stopped trying hurt the game every chance it gets. The game should get quarterly or bi annually updates, that could shake up the meta often. With such a large roster, it would be exciting seeing new characters rise to the top and new players with new play styles rise to the top of tournaments. 2-3 new characters a year could also keep the game spicy. Nintendo might not put much effort into this game because they don’t make money off of players who currently own the game, but that is also their fault. They could easily add skins for each character and people would gobble that up. In addition if they hosted their own weekly tournament like coin box in the game, im sure some sponsors would easily make that beneficial for both Nintendo and the players.

@PeachTimeX

5 ай бұрын

I am so mad about Nintendo being lazy and not making skins. HUGE missed opportunity

@bemiatto67

3 ай бұрын

​@TrollMaster.0 but instead they put in the effort into making a million mii outfits nobody uses. Make it make sense

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

Smash 4 definitely had way more interesting personalities and rivalries even Ultimate is too soulless and PC to bring back that kind of energy

hot take but i think videos like these and tweets that constantly talk about the downfall of ult only rapidly makes it faster. i don’t think ult is dying atm. WTT had 73k viewers and it peaked whenever acola was playing.

@Nick867

5 ай бұрын

Best comment I've seen in this discourse. The doomposting is legitimately the real thing that's killing the game. No one wants to actively look at negativity all the time so when people are constantly complaining about the meta, characters they don't like, etc, the public opinion on the community and game at large will just deteriorate

@josem6412

5 ай бұрын

The scene could be alive tomorrow. Alot of figure heads and top players just want a shiny new game so they can have fresh content, new things to commentate and/or new subscribers. They don't care about the scene they just want new blood to fill the pots /give them new viewers.

I stopped caring about the game since 2022 so its weird to come back and see Sonic, Steve, and G&W be the top 3 characters Its pretty grim I pretty much only play smash with friends now which is more fun anyways

@TheDayd111returns

Ай бұрын

Honestly, Smash wasn't meant for actual FGC. It was meant to play with your friends and such. Just having a good time.

Not to be that person, but I genuinely feel like banning Steve would help with the competitive health of the game. Recently the most positive feedback I’ve seen from an event is LMMM, which had Steve banned. Conversely, while people enjoyed PP8, after the Peach and Fox dittos, all I really saw was negative attention for top 6. Similar story for WTT. And these events were supposed to be some of the best this year due to attendance. Also the Smash community needs to grow up, but what else is new.

I think smash losing popularity is mostly the fault of its community, the community is toxic immature can’t agree on anything and outright refuses to even attempt to fix any issues that plague both the competitive scene and the community as a whole. the game isn’t really as fun to watch anymore because the meta is shit. ironically the intention of ultimate was to have more interactive and aggressive matches than any other smash game (besides melee) but we ended up with a game that has so much passive play it’s only beat out by brawl. A lot of the meta characters play styles basically boil down to waiting until you opponent fucks up once so you can nuke them with a zero to death combo and especially for characters like kazuya and Steve your basically going to be seeing the same combos over and over again seeing a 0 to death once or twice might be cool but having to watch that shit multiple times gets old

@yourdagan

5 ай бұрын

Brawl being "passive" is a misconception borne from the years-long defamation campaign against it. I've gone back to high level gameplay footage from across the world several times this year and was amazed at how much more engaging and enjoyable Brawl is to watch than Ultimate, and than Smash 4 as well for that matter.

@Ser0z

5 ай бұрын

@@yourdagan I’m not saying brawl being passive is a bad thing it literally has mechanics so that the game is slower than other smash games however it works for brawl all the characters (even if they’re overshadowed by meta knight) have something unique fun to bring to the table competitively in brawl where as ultimate feels a bit more stale with a severe lack of play style variety compared previous smash games

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

They removed cross ups and added a 1 vs 1 multiplier to make it "fast"

My two cents in no particular order… - Game engine Let me preface this with I have not played melee competitively or much at all really. Ultimate just feels a bit funky to me, like it’s actively working against smoother or faster movement and large advantage states (This could partly play into camping being incentivized in ultimate’s meta). Platforms and the buffer system seem to cause awkward movements a lot too. It is accessible yes, but I think you can still have accessibility with lots of depth and skillful gameplay. Look at Rivals of Aether (1 or the upcoming sequel) with things like hitfalling and whifflag. It massively rewards getting into advantage, but at the same time punishes mashing or spamming moves, while also being natural enough that players often didn’t even realize they were executing the hitfalling tech in the first place - Online Of course even more problematic with the pandemic. It’s basically two different games online and offline. Slippi alone probably showed a lot of players the difference a functional online can make - Meta Big stages and campy play styles. Everyone else already touched on this, it’s not helping a game that already has Nintendo breathing down its neck

@randomnobody660

5 ай бұрын

The reasons you outlined arguably results in MORE depth and room for skill expression thou. There exist multiple techs just to work around the buffer system for example. On top of that there are genuinely a bunch of un-implemented techs. Also I don't think many would agree with you that what ultimate needs is "larger" advantage states.

@xguitarist_

5 ай бұрын

@@randomnobody660 maybe the engine working against larger advantage states isn’t the right way to describe it, especially since there’s a lot of discourse over polarizing advantage states like with steve. Maybe “free flowing” and “snappy” to bring the advantage states of characters more in line with each other would better describe it. I brought up rivals since I picked it up recently and it’s obvious it has much more aggressive advantage states than ultimate. At least in my time so far, it hasn’t left me feeling like some characters are unfair in advantage because the whole cast has access to a very strong advantage made possible through how the engine allows you to move around much faster. To be fair to smash though, there’s way more characters to worry about so balancing is a much harder task The buffer system does bring its own tech, I’m aware. I used them a lot and even had my whole control scheme set around buffered wave bouncing with the c stick so I could do it constantly, but the tech arising from the buffer system, at least right now, can’t match the movement options or depth anywhere close to melee. On one hand, not every game needs to be melee, however it’s hard to ignore melee when it’s still being played and is the game every other competitively geared platform fighter gets compared to 20+ years later

@randomnobody660

5 ай бұрын

@@xguitarist_ I dunno if I'm understanding you well. The suffocating advantage state of almost every top character has often been cited as the reason for the game slowing down/becoming campy. Back when advantage state wasn't so optimized and mistakes aren't punished by 60% - stock the game was arguably better since people played more aggressive when they could afford mistakes. As for number of options/depth, does it really matter how much there objectively is provided more than what anybody can realistically use exists? Like if you are only capable of diving 15m, does it really matter if you do it on top of the mariana trench or in a swimming pool 16m deep?

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

The worst part was the removal of cross ups which made the game so much more linear

bad netplay and low skill ceiling led people to other fighting games.

The idea that Smash Ultimate can't be topped because of it's numbers is absurd. I'm sorry, but gamers today seriously overvalue quantity. I will take Smash 64's roster if the game is better and does something that refreshes the series positively. Fuck a 9345 character roster.

I don't play smash, but I feel like this is just what's bound to happen when you try to play competitively something that wasn't intended by the devs to be played competitively. Current gen singles in Pokemon are having the same problem, the meta is completely wack with tons of mons that can run away with entire games if given one turn of setup and so much stuff is getting banned but it's not helping, it's the developers that need to fix this kind of thing but obviously they won't because singles is an unofficial metagame. Dragon ball fighterz was left in a pretty sorry state meta-wise after its content updates ended with the fusions pressing full screen buttons and doing 60% meterlessly and every team looking the same at the top level, so the devs have kept updating the game over the last year, having multiple "final" patches that didn't end up being final because there was more balancing to do, and the current meta is quite fun, basically everyone is viable at a high level and you can't just grab fusions and lc21 and call it a day because of the meter gain nerfs. I know there are cases of games not being intended to be played competitively ending up being great competitive games, like melee and mkwii, but those are outliers and not the norm, people shouldn't expect a fun and balanced metagame out of a game that didn't intend to give one just because it has happened a couple of times in the past

@Matanumi

5 ай бұрын

Melee

@wifi961

4 ай бұрын

​@@MatanumiThat game was not meant to be competitive either.

Steve and sonic are only strong because the game controls like dogwater. No amount of buffering is going to fix the heavy 7 frame gimp on top of the average human reaction time of 10-12 frames making whatever they do that's under 17-19 frames completely unreactable. Which is absolute sacrilege to anyone who plays games that rely on a half decent reaction time.

@user-dl8vp7qc2x

3 ай бұрын

i always thought it was just me who had issues with the controls, especially with accidentally rolling out of shield

@postboy2242

3 ай бұрын

​@@user-dl8vp7qc2xI get roll a lot when I try to fair or bair out of shield

It's a combination of everything you pointed out in the video, but the beginning of the downfall was undoubtedly the insane number of top players and commentators being revealed as pedos and sex offenders. That whole situation and the way nothing was really done by TOs to prevent it from happening in the future is likely what drove Nintendo to refuse to work with them. Even though it's been multiple years since then, I still haven't managed to enjoy playing the game like I used to, because that situation axed my enjoyment of trying to improve at the game or enter tournaments.

@RamikinHorde

5 ай бұрын

100% not, the average viewer does not care about any of that drama and is barely aware of it

@StealthFoxx_

5 ай бұрын

Man, it really felt like things were falling apart back in like 2020 when top players started getting exposed for that kind of thing

@snocgamer

4 ай бұрын

​@@RamikinHorde As a person who didn't even know SSBU pedo drama was even a thing untilyou mentioned it, I can confirm this

@richardray6258

4 ай бұрын

Exactly. That is not the problem. Idk what made you think this bruh 🤔

@Shinjiduo

4 ай бұрын

@@RamikinHorde Wouldn't that make it an even worst problem. If the knowledge of rampant misconduct is not widely known then it makes it easier to hide under the rug. It is almost like you don't care that the community was engaged in debauchery just that many people don't know about it. Sexual misconduct happened it is a problem period.

People should try playing rivals of aether, none of these issues exist in that game, the meta is ever evolving (and every character is viable), it’s old now but it gets constant updates and rivals 2 in on the way, and the developers actively engage positively with the competitive community

@user-dl8vp7qc2x

3 ай бұрын

theres no children to groom tho so smelly smash players will continue to dwell in the woodworks

From my personal experience, it's the community, the community is just so godawful and toxic, and it keeps getting worse with drama, like recently we had Wizzy and other players talking about hating Acola, a freaking kid dude, smash community is hopeless since Ultimate, and I didn't even bring up the allegations

@treasure9342

5 ай бұрын

Idk smash drama cause I don't interact with anything about the game, all ik are the memes that smash players are just so differnt from any other game

@STONKS_MemeMan

5 ай бұрын

Quite literally every game has a toxic community. Have you seen *Minecraft* it's still one of the most popular games on this planet.

@treasure9342

5 ай бұрын

​@@STONKS_MemeManya I agree a community never is a driving factor in downfall of games cause communitys of people are in the small minority of people that just play the game for fun

@justamugofcoco

5 ай бұрын

​@@treasure9342the issue being a bunch of top players and the entire competitive scene being unorganized, and those who are on top aren't good people to keep on top, I'm not saying every other community is an angel, but it's very prominent in smash, whether crews, locals, or at the top of the top, smash community killed the game for me since I was around the toxic crew scene and since I exposed a lot within some crews I not only lost respect towards the community, but moved on to other games and gave up on the community ever making a good comeback, hell smash even got infested with toxic wokies who will try to ruin your rep because they can't beat you, and the way the community works is guilty till proven innocent Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, smash community is a dumpster fire tldr

@treasure9342

5 ай бұрын

@@justamugofcoco great Ted talk,👏👏👏👏👏

Smash ultimate got me into fighting games, I remember grinding the game day in and day out, I even attended tournaments and yet the hype locally died down as well, I even remember how many people moved to Street Fighter 6 at launch. I dedicate my time to Granblue and Guilty Gear now but I still play it once in a while, it's really fun but hearing the communities pessimistic views on the game can be disheartening at times.

@DrDeez-do9zo

5 ай бұрын

Ya, i played this game religiously for 3 years straight when i first got it (mained Kirby the whole time too) but later got a bit burnt out on it, leaving to play other games. I went back to playing the game again but definitely mellowed out lol

@Wario_B

5 ай бұрын

@@DrDeez-do9zoI mained K. Rool but that was literally me LOL

I agree that Nintendo's interference gave the scene a big hit, but I think one of the biggest reasons the game fell off was when a lot of top players were outed for nasty behavior. Nintendo can't afford the risk and it made the scene unsafe for underaged competitors.

@stripedrajang3571

4 ай бұрын

It's weird you say that. I remember them harshly judging pedophilia, but not homosexuality. To them, pedophilia was bad, but homosexuality was good. They both are just as bad. Heck, one would go further and say that homosexuality may be even far more worse than pedophilia. It baffled my mind when I seen homosexuals demeaning pedophilians. I still have the Pikachu face! 😂 😯 😲 Buy yeah, toxic community.

It’s probably because the community was so toxic Tbagging Taunting A bunch of Tryhards and Lots of people took this game seriously

I stopped playing smash seriously after life caught up with me, but I’ve always been a melee guy at heart. I still keep tabs on the scene and recently wanted to play some ultimate recently but then I look at the meta and it’s just insanely unappealing

"New content is vital for keeping a game alive" Consistent new content drops CAN keep a game alive, but it's not a feasible long term strategy for most games. What's actually vital for keeping a game live is making sure it's mechanically deep, well-balanced, and artistically consistent. See Melee, Third Strike, TF2, Starcraft, etc. Smash Ultimate had these at some point but lost "well-balanced" with the bunch final DLC characters, and "artistically consistent" when they added Steve.

There were two main factors that killed my excitement for competitive smash. On was the pandemic, which killed the local competitive scenes (especially near me). I couldn’t play in person any more, which was made the game fun to me, so I stopped playing during the pandemic. By the time it ended, I had moved on. I’m guessing other people had similar experiences. The other reason was the rampant abuse/drama surrounding high-profile personalities in the competitive Smash community. Huge competitors and creators like Zero and Nairo being accused of sexual misconduct not only nixed two of my most-watched Smash content creators but also left a horrible taste in my mouth. Do I want to be a part of a community that fosters this type of behavior-allows it to continue for years before shedding light on it? I felt uncomfortable associating with it, so I didn’t have a strong desire to keep up with any part of Smash Ultimate’s content/tournament scene after that. Again, I think some other people probably felt the same. These two might not be as big of reasons as the ones listed in the video (or maybe they are, I have no way to tell), but they at least contributed heavily to my disengagement. Note: I don’t mean to suggest that Zero and Nairo definitively did what they were accused of or that they haven’t changed as people or anything. I use them as an example because they were the two most notable cases in the string of accusations. Whether those two did those things or not, it doesn’t change the fact that the community by and large allows stuff like that to happen. I’m glad that people were talking about it and it became a more conscious issue, but I don’t think you can blame somebody for having reservations about a space that allows for things like that to happen. (I’m not even sure what tournaments/community spaces have done to combat this type of behavior.)

I keep falling more and more in love with it. After playing nick all star 2 and multiverses, I have come to realize how polished and balanced smash ultimate it is. No platform fighter is this amazing

@kiwifluorite

5 ай бұрын

Yooo based

@Sickmmaner

5 ай бұрын

That's why I have such high hopes for Rivals 2

@jayandjlps8022

5 ай бұрын

NASB 2 controls way better than Ultimate and overall has better mechanics.

@lordmew5

5 ай бұрын

Nasb 2 is better in all ways besides the fact that ultimate has pikmin representation in it.

@100organicfreshmemes5

5 ай бұрын

Rivals of Aether is better. The mechanics and characters are all designed to make lame playstyles unviable and the roster is immaculately balanced. Everyone is viable as opposed to Ultimate where taking Mac or Kirby into a major tournament is like trying to play basketball against a professional team with your legs tied together.

1. Nintendo being Nintendo 2. Input delay 3. *STEVE*

@nickel7o740

5 ай бұрын

Biggest thing for me is the Input Delay combined with the Buffer System.

@XxEnderxX-lh5hf

5 ай бұрын

I think a lot of characters are badly designed and put degenerate play to the forefront, and just shit movement and movesets is what killed the game

There's a lot of reasons I could highlight, though I doubt people will admit to some of them. - Bad Meta: The best characters invalidate a huge chunk of the cast despite being "balanced" for the top half. - Bad Balancing: Like it or not, people generally like to play characters they enjoy playing. Crazy concept, I know, but yeah. With so many characters to choose from, but half of them are (even if more balanced than previous games in reality) feel significantly worse than others. - Meta Mentality: Because of the latter, and also because of the "rise of esports", it's just genuinely unfun to play anyone now. Everybody is so ultra-sweaty and so many people play meta, people feel no joy and intrigue in playing. - Online sucks: Not only is the netcode bad, but for fun/for glory was objectively a better system, and I have no idea why they canned it. - Bad community: Let's be honest, from creeps committing sexual harassment, to weirdos, to toxic people, nobody wants to hang out with Smash players. They're incredibly toxic overall, and if you want to get halfway decent, you have to endure a lot of toxicity. - Time commitment: Since Ultimate in particular is so complex, it requires a LOT of time to get decent at, and that feels pretty bad. - Bad mechanics: I can say this for myself and several people -- Ultimate has some straight-up stupid choices and nuances in mechanics. Forced shorthopped aerials, weird buffer input shenanigans, inputs doing sometimes the exact opposite of how they worked in older games and the opposite of what's intuitive (retreating fair coming out as a bair for example). It just feels like it's trying to be smooth but failing.

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

I agree with most of, but i don't think the game it's that complex, for me hard thing is knowing the matchups

@EingefrorenesEisen

5 ай бұрын

@salvadorhenriquez4091 I've played other fighters, and honestly Smash is the most complex. Any drone can eventually learn combo strings and complex inputs, but in Smash you have to react a lot more even mid combo. The heavily physics-based engine, unique mechanics, strange interactions, unintuitive results, etc just make the game require a LOT more to account for that other fighting games just don't have. And honestly, it's for the better. Smash is overwhelming to play consistently and well in.

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

@@EingefrorenesEisen all right

@lukejones7164

4 ай бұрын

​@@EingefrorenesEisen Smash is universally considered the easiest fighting game to get into even for casual gamers. If you think it is too complex for that then something is clearly wrong with you. Smash Ultimate sold over 30 million copies and most children have no problems learning the game lol

@EingefrorenesEisen

4 ай бұрын

@lukejones7164 playing the game is a lot different than being good at it. A game being appealing to children does not determine how difficult it is. But you're probably like 12 if you can't grasp that. Remind me how many fgc players are good at smash, vs how many smash pros also play fgc games? Also no, it is not "universally" considered the easiest. It's easy to execute the attacks and some of the combos, but the game is so much more than that. Coming from somebody who doesn't even like smash mechanically. It's objectively more complex.

"We don't need a Smash 6, how can you top ultimate?" Well, an actual story mode would be nice for starters

From my ideas, there are two factors contributing to the decline of the game. One being the fact that Nintendo has not added any content for years now to the game, even balance changes which is obvious, but the second I feel is just the meta. People get bored after seeing the same characters pop up in top 8 all the time and it’s reasonable.

@freddiesimmons1394

5 ай бұрын

By "the same characters", you mean like... 30? Outside of the top top top majors, you see a wild variety in finals

@nap2149

5 ай бұрын

Would be valid points if melee didn’t exist

@dazedd-fi4yx

5 ай бұрын

Its not the variety of characters but which characters. Why are melee players not sick of watching Fox? Cuz he actually gives the players freedom of expression and is fun to play and fight. Smash ults meta characters are campy sleep shit that have 0 expression. Every sonic is the same, every steve is the same, every aegis is the same. Ult in general has 0 expression.

@deege376

5 ай бұрын

The most exciting match for my by far had to have been Skyjay’s run to the grand finals that one time.

@h0m3st4r

5 ай бұрын

@@dazedd-fi4yx No, it's because Fox is a rushdown character, and by your own logic, it's Melee that has no expression, not Ultimate.

I feel like it's a combination of the biggest upswing in tournament energy being shot in the head by Nintendo, and then the rise of what a lot of viewers and players consider cancer characters that are anti hype and kind of feel like they rob wins. I don't necessarily think that the game needs permanently ongoing updates like some have said. Melee has had no updates in ages and remains popular. But I think the top games being littered with Steve, and Sonic (and maybe G&W to a lesser extent) is not great because they really do kind of suck the energy out of the viewing experience. When Steve and Sonic are dominant, it feels less like an expression of outskilling the opponent and more an endless barrage of way overtuned options for steve or just being impossible to interact with for sonic. They really just needed maybe a little more time to identify and fix a few of the most egregious problem children and I think meta wize we'd be good. I don't even think some characters like Aegis are really panning out to be that big a problem, as you can see almost nobody maining them due to their volatility (Maybe slightly biased, but they really haven't show results that match people's whining about them).

@N12015

5 ай бұрын

I WISH it would have been Nintendo, but all the scenario seems like they made reckless promises of offering too big of a price and too low regulations to be acceptable (And remember, a lot of the 2020 drama happened due to lack of said regulations)... then *the community themselves* dismantled all the Panda tournament. I'm so sorry for even believing the complot, and wish most of the community was like Dabuz, but we aren't.

@TheEmperorGulcasa

5 ай бұрын

While I do agree that the community wasn’t conducting itself ideally, Nintendo was the one in the position to try and setup a way to regulate tournaments and keep them inline to foster a healthy scene. Instead they were a silent brick wall most of the time, then went nuclear.

@N12015

2 ай бұрын

@@TheEmperorGulcasa ... Did we gave them reasons to trust us? I don't think so. If anything we just keep giving Nintendo reasons to shut us down.

@TheEmperorGulcasa

2 ай бұрын

@@N12015 They don't need to be trusting anything. They have the obligation to provide structure to a competitive scene if they have a problem with it. It is both to their benefit and unpreventable for people to like the game and want to play it at a competitive level. They can just constantly shut everything down if they want to stifle energy and just have bad PR egg on their face constantly. But even Nintendo is not so immune to basic audience retention that they actively don't want an enthusiastic fanbase. They clearly do want it, so they should be the ones taking charge and laying out what rules they want for the scene to comply with. Being complacent and letting things do as they please, then lashing out randomly is the absolute worst way to run things.

At this point Alpharad's Casual Tournaments/Events might be the way to go in terms of the viewership experience. I have always been interested in seeing top players adapt to a more silly meta besides the standard competitive.

1:15 I feel so bad for Tweek. I couldnt imagine having to play against that and maintaining composure

@dazedd-fi4yx

5 ай бұрын

this game is so ass cheeks

@dr.rockzo7193

5 ай бұрын

For real, not that far off of brawl meta knights infinite dimensional cape

@dazedd-fi4yx

5 ай бұрын

@@dr.rockzo7193 tbf that was a bug that woudlve been patched if the game was released when patches were a thinf

@dr.rockzo7193

5 ай бұрын

@@dazedd-fi4yx yeah, I mean it’s so hard to get in when Steve walls himself a little fortress that it’s almost pointless that far in the game to even try.

Smash ultimate managed to stay alive (despite its decline) through the pandemic despite its age. I’d say that’s impressive. Had the pandemic never happened, Ultimate likely would be far more robust

The Smash World Tour and Panda Cup drama destroyed the scene. 2 of the biggest Smash Bros tournament scenes were financially destroyed and there was immediately much less high tier content around the game. The drama also highlighted how untrustworthy the top figure-heads in the Smash community still were, even after the Me Too allegations of 2020. Which, btw, it's no wonder Nintendo doesn't support the Competitive Smash scene when its reputation is still poison after 2020.

@N12015

5 ай бұрын

And for the ones who say Melee is better, LEFFEN, enough said.

@captainfalconmain6576

5 ай бұрын

Wrong genesis is the biggest still it has more history

If we get a new Smash game, it will probably cut characters to the ones that make sense (of course), not be directed by Sakurai, and over all be vastly different to previous games. Ultimate was Sakurai’s big last hurrah where he tried to make the best version of his game, and it’s unfortunate that it’s held back by a couple of flaws.

@WizardOfWor

4 ай бұрын

Especially with most 3rd party characters like Sora.

The lack of updates, boring meta, mashy feel, and rise in pessimism definitely is killing the game. But I still have hope in this game, even on days where I start going on a losing streak or I'm watching a tournament with lame characters, as long as I see improvement or have that 1 character I like in the top 8, I'll always think for the better. The community might not be the best, but I'll keep my faith in them since we've been through worse and still keep going. Wheter the spirit/Sora amiibo update brings new characters or solo content next year, I think Ultimate and the Smash community will survive.

@Matanumi

5 ай бұрын

Don't expect much in sora amiibo update

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

Ngl i feel this is coping a bit The reason why Smash is falling off because it's flaw are starting to become more and more apparent and people are getting tired of the current gameplay

@wifi961

4 ай бұрын

​@@grimsdol4665Or maybe it's because it's not a liveservice game and people are playing other things.

@grimsdol4665

4 ай бұрын

@wifi961 Wouldn't be a problem that it wasn't live service if it wasn't so flawed to continuously need them

@wifi961

4 ай бұрын

@@grimsdol4665 What flaws online lag?

It is an old game and unlike other old fighting games it has no official circuit

@Matanumi

5 ай бұрын

Melee?

The reasons that you listed are sadly true. There is one more reason and it's pretty obvious: The community. They just don't feel welcoming towards players who main top tier characters (Steve, Sonic, Aegis, etc.) And they would just harass them and point out that maining a obnoxious character is a justifiable reason to do so. So like what character can the player even play? And yet they still find a reason to hate you because why tf not? I'm not really a big fan of how they antagonize players just because the player plays a character that most of them dislike because that's just gonna give them a bad image.

@nikkobird590

5 ай бұрын

People harass people who play top tier characters but praise low tiers as if they are good characters lol.😂

@capitanpastabase6342

5 ай бұрын

harassment is unacceptable but the public can openly dislike players for playing lame or for whatever reason. This happens in every sport.

@kitsune6363

3 ай бұрын

It's a cesspool of man children, wokies, and zoomers and they recently just destroyed their own circuits and their only chance at having Nintendo sponsor them

Second thought: I love that you brought up tournament volatility. I think that is one thing that is driving the interest in melee so high. Like obviously Zain and current number one in the world IBDW are pretty definitively the best 2, the top 10-50 are all arguably in closer striking distance than at any other time in melee's history as a global competitive game. aMSa leveling up like crazy after a break, jmook breaking out and taking full tourneys from 1-2 seed players, the scores of amazing players like plup, moky, kodorin, even aklo, or soonsay also on a rapid incline, and obviously mang0 and hbox still be dangerous threats make the current player meta so cool. So many players have brought up that normal bracket has become much more terrifying because some unknown, cracked player can disrupt brackets so easily. It has been awesome to watch

If it only had melee adventure mode…

Break the targets was missing and board the platforms.

If Ultimate doesn't last like Melee has, that would be a shame. It is a really, really well made platform fighter. Still the best on the market imo. With that said, it isn't for Nintendo to "save" it. It is up to the community to come up with sensible rule changes which prioritises viewership.

@thetruekingofwaffles

5 ай бұрын

Nah Nintendo needs to patch certain characters and stuff, I don't know why they stopped updating the game after fighters pass 2 they could've added DLC at an unconsistent rate and made small updates to keep it relevant until the next

@mentlegen3887

4 ай бұрын

It's a responsibility for Nintendo as well! They played a HUGE part in ensuring smash is inconvenient for players at every skill level, even for newbies!

Improvement doesn't matter if it didn't improve enough. The meta being stale isn't a deal breaker, being boring and non impressive due to cheap mechanics IS. If it was a dealbreaker and improved to less of one but still one... It doesn't matter.

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

That really is a big thing, it's not that the meta is stale, it's that it's bad, it's not exciting or fun watching or playing the same cheesy strats over and over again, and it's not fun watching players abuse the same move over and over again. Just look at the diddy vs Steve footage in this video. What did steve do, build walls and camp and what did Diddy, Keep on using banana, if it didn't work use more bananas

If we do ever get a new Smash game. Let us hope that that we don't repeat the same mistakes that currently plague the current state of Ultimate.

@wifi961

4 ай бұрын

It will and you're still going buy it anyway.

@darrielvasquez9014

4 ай бұрын

I hope Ganondorf gets his own moveset in the next game went from Captain Falcon clone to a Cloud and Ike

@MJJ_2009

4 ай бұрын

I hope in the new smash game kirby gets buffed

These are reasons why competitive viewership has declined. But when it comes to competitive playership, BY FAR the biggest factor is the dogwater online. Meanwhile melee’s playerbase keeps on growing thanks to slippi

@salvadorhenriquez4091

5 ай бұрын

The weird thing that i've seen with melee is that it has been dying outside the US, but there, it has maintained the numbers with online

The year is 20xx. Everyone is playing Steve and sonic. Interactions are so limited that TOs have had to institute new rules that limit camping. Crowds are so small that tournaments are held in houses or hotel rooms.

Steve killed it

I'll tell ya why, because the meta has devolved into running away, and i dont just mean sonic. a bunch of swordies running away spamming their huge hitboxes, rob and diddy looking for their one item combo starter, nobody approaches anymore. Its to the point where I'm cheering for characters like wario, puff and luigi, and i hate those guys.

I my opinion is that the older viewers / players just lost interest in Nintendo / smash as a whole and focus more on life instead.

I truly think it’s Nintendo’s view on every game they make. It’s almost like every game they create has a timer for how long they are considered a game acceptable by them before they decide they want it to not be relevant. Like, instead of trying to cultivate more life into a game, they want you to completely forget about it as soon as they’re done working on it, so you play the next game or something. Ya know, for a company that doesn’t do live service very often, it’s extremely weird how disposable they see their games at the end of the day.

Here are the factors why this game is dying for me: 1- Blocking online player system is horrible; people block way too often for the stupidest reasons, it usually leaves players with no little to no arenas to play with. 2- The devs stopped updating the game way too early. Broken characters need to be nerfed so the game is more bearable. Steve is broken, Sonic is broken, Kazuya is unfair, Min Min is toxic. Basically most DLC needs some nerfs. 3- This game encourages camping and it’s basically camp or be camped. It’s ridiculous.

Whaaaaat a 5 year old game is slowly dropping off? Damm what a shock

@shaghilathar3588

3 ай бұрын

TBF Tekken 7 had been out for 9 years and was still going strong up until last year in terms of players

@ABC-ik9vj

3 ай бұрын

​@@shaghilathar3588not really, most fighting games are abandoned by the community after a couple of years

@shaghilathar3588

3 ай бұрын

@@ABC-ik9vj You can check the player counts. It stayed somewhat consistent from launch for the better part of 7 years

@ABC-ik9vj

3 ай бұрын

@@shaghilathar3588 people doesn't talk about it so no

@shaghilathar3588

3 ай бұрын

@@ABC-ik9vj It had the highest number of Evo entries in the 2020s

Ultimate was already the "Mk8 Deluxe" version of Smash 4, it's complete copium to think it's going to get it's own ultimate version. we're cooked until the switch 2 is out bare minimum, not that big majors/circuits will come back even then

@HypercatZ

3 ай бұрын

Yeah! Ultimate was basically Super Smash Bros. 4 DX with extra steps. And some people think the next game will be Ultimate DX. No, really, we need Super Smash Bros. Zero.

that Fire Emblem Awakening music gives me the biggest nostalgia every time

It’s a combination of the character balancing, it being out for like five years now, lack of support, and the absolutely horrendous net code. When you think of most of the popular games out right now, they’re constantly being given new content, balancing updates, and the developer typically cares a lot about the competitive scene. Smash ultimate has none of that and a lot of the mechanics of the game are aimed more towards casuals who at this point are no longer playing the game. However, it still has a pretty thriving community when you compare it to the other smash games. The only one that’s even remotely comparable is melee which for the first time in a long time, no longer has a declining audience. But the vast majority of smash fans are still playing ultimate.

I think it can be chalked up to Nintendo. Having an end-life to your game is fair enough, Smash was never going to be a perpetually updated live service game and I'm glad for that. However, the game ended on such a bad note. I think it should've been in the plans to take a 6~ month break after the "final patch" to observe community sentiment to make sure the game isn't left in a dire state and adjust it as necessary and that frankly, Smash 4 should've taught them this. That when you leave the game, if there's an unfun but super strong character, it harms the game. Sonic, Steve and Kazuya alone are the three horseman of super polarising matchups. You can't contest sonic's horizontal and vertical mobility; he is the fastest on the ground and can get huge bursts of momentum up and down. Steve can wall you out and for every second you're not fighting him he's only getting stronger. Kazuya needs ONE good hit to take a stock, a competent Kazuya can take a game in under a minute.

I quit playing a few months ago due to being frustrated at playing online, and recently quite SF6 due to frustration, and I've realized one thing: playing defensive/passively always wins. And I guess that's part of the problem, defensive/passive is always boring, but that's my view.

I'll save you it's steve

I like to think of it this way. In Smash 4, we had Bayo. In Ultimate, we have the power of Bayo split into like 6-8 characters that all stand far above the rest. It's not fun, and it's really discouraging as a competitor knowing your character just can't keep up. So the game being unbalanced, while heavily favoring lame characters and play syles, combined with the atrocious online is why I pretty much don't mess with Smash anymore. I only play friendlies with my roomates, that's it.

This game is so awesome at locals where people play mid tiers. It is great.

Ironically was more into Sm4sh than Ultimate myself.

I would just love some new stage variety, ether with adding new stages or experimenting with toggle on.

Nintendo recently celebrated Smash Ultimate’s 5th anniversary and announced that new spirits will be coming to the game in 2024, meaning that it’s getting an update for the first time since 2021. I doubt that any new content other than spirits will be added, but I think balance changes are within the realm of possibility.

@Wario_B

4 ай бұрын

I think they’re done with changing actual characters but I’d be more then happy to be wrong and eat my words

Alriiiiight been real guys, see you in 5 years for Smash 6 to have this conversation again

The #1 factor is the awful netcode, you just can't survive without good netcode after Covid. Another factor I feel is that Smash is far more difficult to get into than other fighting games such as Guilty Gear Strive. From an execution perspective, Smash is far more difficult to play at a high level due to it's monstrously high input delay even offline and the analog inputs leading to extremely small changes in inputs leading to completely different situations. With the terrible reputation of top tiers like Steve, Sonic, Mr. G&W, Min Min and Kazuya, and the complete lack of hope for either more patches or another smash game, people don't want to learn a game with this difficult and frustrating of execution with top tiers this annoying and no supposed future. Another issue is the lack of variety for spectators. From a spectator's perspective, every match looks the same, Steve vs. Sonic on PS2 or an Animal Crossing stage, yet again. We need more stage variety to keep the viewing experience interesting. I think a potential solution to the stage issue is using the Battlefield and Omega forms of stages, at the very least using random battlefield form / omega forms as a complete replacement for Battlefield or Final Destination (with 2D stages and Windy Hill Zone banned using the in-game rules of course), we could also use exclusively either BF or FD forms and eliminate the stage picking game entirely, making every competitive match play on the same stage layout. While this would be a massive change, I think it has potential, we should try experimenting with a tournament using that and see what people think.

@dj_koen1265

5 ай бұрын

Its ironic how you say smash is too hard When the narrative was always fighting games are too hard except smash which is easy and intuitive

I think a big reason was a lot of the drama in 2020. Personal feelings aside, that left a lot of big whole in the community, and everything afterwards (online tournament frustration, Panda Global, Steve/Kazuya) was just icing on the cake. The only way we'll see a resurgence is with a new game.

I remember back when Steve and Kazuya came out people were defending them, saying people just need to adapt and learn the matchup. The same arguments we heard for Cloud and Bayonetta in Smash 4. Now the competitive scene is dying due in part to how bullshit they are. How many times are we gonna have to do this before people are ready to admit some characters are straight up broken and will kill the game?

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

Well it's not just steve and Kazuya's B.S. It's most smash characters having B.S in the 1st place, If Ice Climbers were top tier the meta would stick suck because Ice Climbers Desync is also b.s and is just another 0-death. If incinaroar was top tier then it'd be dying in one hit or getting hit with a command at 20% and dying. Of it was Link it'd be camping and spamming Nair All. That's the issue is that so many of the smash characters that have B.S

@100organicfreshmemes5

5 ай бұрын

@@grimsdol4665 Steve and Kazuya are not comparable to those characters. 0-deaths in Smash aren't inherently a problem because the character might make trade-offs elsewhere or they might be really difficult to pull off. Steven and Kazuya basically break the rules of the game. Kazuya has way too much super armor and intangibility on his moves for no good reason, making going on the offensive a bad move since he has an option to counter basically whatever you do. He also has a reflect, just in case you thought you could try zoning/camping him. And when he goes on the offense Electric Wind God Fist having a tricky input is literally the only thing it's balanced around, and pro players can consistently pull it off multiple times in a row. It's invincible, fast as hell, starts and extends combos almost endlessly and even if you block it it has a unique mechanic to push you back while you're trapped in blockstun so you can't punish him for spamming it. And Steve is a fucking nightmare. He has extemely long combos or 0-deaths that are easy as fuck to pull off, has an outlandish damage output once he gets Diamond weapons that no other character comes close to, has multiple extremely strong edgeguarding tools and Block breaks the game letting him place terrain on command to camp you, give himself something to tech off so you can't kill him, kill confirm off a grab near the ledge or block your recovery which many characters can do literally nothing about. Not even mentioning the bugs/exploits he has that Nintendo left in the game because now that they got their money from people buying the DLCs they don't give a shit.

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

@100organicfreshmemes5 well yes steve and kazuya are the biggest aggressors by far im not denying that, but the point is that if that if you were to just numerically buff characters to be as good as the top tiers, as good as say Aegis or Joker. The problem would still persists because the reality is there's only a few characters who don't have somekind of Cheese or B.S in the game. And if those characters were top tier Those problems would be far more apparent

@100organicfreshmemes5

5 ай бұрын

@@grimsdol4665 That's true, but it'd still be better than the current situation where 75% of the roster can't even compete.

@grimsdol4665

5 ай бұрын

@100organicfreshmemes5 it would be but my point is it's not by much, a good way of looking at it is compare the craziest things even a mid tier in smash can do compared to a top tier in say Street Fighter 6 or MK1. Craziest thing you can do in MK1 is like 55% combo ir making creating a 2 prong attack that's almost impossibleto block if you timeit well. Now compare to chrom who can pull off the edge of the stage and kill u 0% while he gets to live or someone like Luigi who can get a 0-death on. and yeah these characters have trade offs, but B.S is still B.S and smash has a loooooot more than almost any other pvp game

Imo, Ultimate has the overall lamest meta in smash history. Even outside of the top tiers, yes theres a LOT of characters being played, but why does quantity matter when that quantity consists of Olimar, Samus, Sora, Steve, GnW, Rob, Snake, Bowser, Sonic, the list goes on. Even characters that are comparatively hype like Mario are just bland and frustrating to play against. Up air to up air to up air to fair, or to super jump punch. Theres so few characters that feel like they deserve to beat you, rather they just have better individual tools.

@tymunster

5 ай бұрын

Compared to Rivals, a game I've been playing a LOT lately, it's night and day. Everyone can beat projectiles with a parry, everyone has complex combo trees that require DI reading, and the hitstun is long enough to allow creative, free flowing combos for competitive players, and funny cheese for casual players. It's fun because it knows what is.