4 in a row would have been the ULTIMATE challenge for MJ, he would have shown up more determined than ever.

@slow69

3 жыл бұрын

You know if they decided to keep playing and phil coaching it would've been 4th. I mean if they could of got someone else to join the dynasty or trade for a draft pick it be well more rings. And if he didnt retire for baseball like they said in the last dance. His work ethic and hard work pays off... it would've been insane.

@ptmrwithzo

3 жыл бұрын

They would have won,people today can't imagine the level of determination & competivness MJ & the Bulls had back then.

@vulcanraven9701

3 жыл бұрын

Mike Hawk: Why not? The Jazz sweot the spurs the year before. The Bulls were more talented and experienced than the spurs.

@vulcanraven9701

3 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hawk I meant in the Jazz swept them in previous yr. While the spurs improved it would be hard to wager against a team who just won 3 straight titles without needing 7 gakes in all 3 of them. but thats just me

@ptmrwithzo

3 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hawk I can tell by that comment you made without context that either you was too young to actually watch the NBA back then or just didn't like the Bulls which is fine...MJ was the ultimate competitor & NO ONE was beating that Bulls team back then,you had to have seen it to fully grasp their dominance in the NBA back then. As far as Pippin that wouldn't have happened while playing with MJ because you'd have to go back & understand that he was fine with MJ shinning over him & being the #2 guy behind him but don't take his moment from him & give it to a European player because at that time European players wasn't respected & as silly as it sounds now back then that was a slap in the face.

Is this a trick question 😂 you asking if Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman would won another title under Phil Jackson on a short season of 50 games.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Lol! Yes

@torhowell5202

3 жыл бұрын

If Jordan was there a lockout wouldn't have happened.

@air2373

3 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hawk The Jazz in 1998 we’re a better team than the Spurs in ‘99. The series against the Pacers should have ended in 5 but Indiana somehow survived in game 4.

@wnnfrhrw4452

3 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hawk Or maybe they keep losing to The Bulls.

@raymonbristol9628

3 жыл бұрын

@Mike Hawk Knicks were a 8th seed team in 99 and made it all the way to the finals. I think the bulls would have had the better of them

I definitely think that the Bulls would win the championship in 1999. Wish it could have happened though.

@vernonleewarren280

3 жыл бұрын

I second that, but it would have been tough for them. Tim Duncan was that dude

@krismiller2412

3 жыл бұрын

Who won the 1999 season

@MakaveliDior

3 жыл бұрын

@@krismiller2412 Spurs

@MakaveliDior

3 жыл бұрын

@@muhammadrajput3502 no because when MJ was in the wizards he didn't play for 3 years

@MakaveliDior

3 жыл бұрын

@@muhammadrajput3502 Yeah but he still would have averaged 28-29 points before he broke his ribs on the wizards he was averaging 25 points and he was already 39. And he was not taking care of his body. So in my opinion MJ would of course be on a decline but still be the best player in the world Malone for example won MVP in 99 in those 50 regular season games. And if you think about it he could averaged even more points because of lesser games played

If the Bulls never disbanded...PLUS the shortened schedule? Bulls would win Title #7.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

💯

@501jaylee

3 жыл бұрын

Straight cap, ain’t beating a prime Shaq and Kobe

@501jaylee

3 жыл бұрын

@PP - 09RT 704228 Jean Augustine SS not even a casual, the video said they would lose that matchup so I thought he meant try a 2000 run against the Lakers, for a 7th ring. 🤦‍♂️

@rapidshareag3962

3 жыл бұрын

@@501jaylee Don't even worry about that thing thats a delusional jordan fan.... these days, the only casual fans are jordan fans- they have no valid opinions!

@501jaylee

3 жыл бұрын

@@rapidshareag3962 fair 😂

Definetly would win 4 Straight, alot of people don't know this but Jordan was injured in his Wizard days he tore his Meniscus and before that injury he averaged around 28 points.

@SmoothJK

3 жыл бұрын

If he were LeBron, he would have made sure everyone knew he was hurt

@wallacepemberton932

3 жыл бұрын

@@SmoothJK people knew, he couldn’t play, that’s why they didn’t make the playoffs.

@viniciussantos2857

3 жыл бұрын

@@SmoothJK whata nosense comment...

@shaunphillips3236

3 жыл бұрын

@@viniciussantos2857 that's actually true. He'd make sure to make it known so he'd have an excuse just in case he didn't make the playoffs

@shaunphillips3236

3 жыл бұрын

@@wallacepemberton932 ur ignorance is laughable #FACTS smfh. At 40 years old, MJ scored 20 PPG. There's 20 year olds that don't do that 🤔🤣😂🤣😂. The issue was there wasn't really any talent around him in WAS

I would have to agree and I say this with the Spurs being my second favorite franchise in the NBA. It would have been a knockdown, drag out battle. But a Bulls team that had so much experience and potentially fresh legs against a younger Spurs team with no finals experience would have had a certain mental edge. And again, Michael Jordan changes everything. He still would be the best player in the league at that point. Despite being so much bigger, I’m still not sure how a baby Tim Duncan would have dealt with a defender like Rodman, who was still the leading rebounder in 1998. Then, there’s Phil Jackson’s legendary coaching. Pops isn’t far behind, but Phil’s ability to make adjustments over the course of a series has always been elite. The Spurs would have needed one of the Bulls big four (including Kukoc here because he was a baller!) to fall off a cliff to win 7 games against them, something no team has ever done. I just can’t see that happening.

@kaelinspace283

3 жыл бұрын

there was a lockout season that year it would of been a good rest for mj and scottie

@michaelwade9170

3 жыл бұрын

I would say bulls take the spurs in 6

@johnmoreno5965

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaelwade9170 maybe but I'd say the spurs take the bulls in 7

@michaelwade9170

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnmoreno5965 yeah my brother said the spurs in 5 over the bulls but I'll say the bulls in 6 no matter who has home court the bulls still get out of the east in 99 with all of them coming back there get past ny atl ind or Mia but they beat the spurs in 6 my brother says spurs in 5 I disagree bulls take 99 I even beat NBA in the zone 99 made a super Jordan & I beat the spurs in the 99 finals lol

@gregoryziers5406

2 жыл бұрын

I would say the Bulls in 7 as well. It would have been a classic NBA finals matchup. Would have Jordan try for championship no. 8?? Who knows. I believe he could of won one in the early 2000s with the right Bulls team and head coach.

They might not have faced a superstar center in the finals but they eliminated and swept a DOMINANT HOF center (Shaq) in the ECF. And that team was the best team in the east for 2 years until MJ came back.

@jp3813

3 жыл бұрын

Ewing

@StephonMaple

3 жыл бұрын

Wasn’t a prime Shaq but it was getting there

@rapidshareag3962

3 жыл бұрын

LA SHAQ totally diff monster kid!!!!

@logicaldude3611

3 жыл бұрын

@@StephonMaple Shaq in 1996 was still a HOF level player. He wasn't the absolute wrecking ball he would be in 2000, but the guy was still one of the best players in the NBA and a dominant force.

@kevinpayton2664

3 жыл бұрын

@No More Words Somehow people won't talk about 1995.

If the Bulls kept their team together, Steve Kerr wouldn't have gone to the Spurs. The Spurs and the Jazz were tied for the #1 seed in the West in '99, with the Spurs winning the tie breaker. If Kerr was worth even one victory to the Spurs, taking him away gives the Jazz the #1 seed, and the whole playoff scenario changes. We might be talking about a third straight Bulls-Jazz final.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

Blazers were a great team in 99. Besides game 1 they totally dominated Utah the rest of that series.

@big8dog887

3 жыл бұрын

@@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO. But after that series, the Blazers were swept by the Spurs. So in this scenario, the Blazers and Spurs meet one round earlier, while the Jazz play the Lakers. Presumably, this leads to a Spurs-Jazz conference final with the Jazz having home court. Maybe the Spurs win anyway, but a Jazz win isn't implausible.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

@@big8dog887 good point

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

@@big8dog887 i remember when Spurs started clicking that year they went to Utah and handled the Jazz. But Jazz also had Spurs number in the playoffs. In 94, 96, 98 playoffs they easily took care of Spurs.

OK, so watching this video made me watch Episode 10 of The Last Dance again, specifically the last 5 minutes, where Reinsdorf and MJ both make their arguments for trying to get #7 vs. rebuilding. Here are my thoughts (Sorry if this rant is a bit long): Reinsdorf said that it would be 'suicide' to re-sign everyone because of market value and he mentioned names like Ron Harper. Harper was, in fact, signed for one more year on his deal. He was on that 99 roster, along with 7 other returning players from 98 (as was Corey Benjamin, Randy Brown, Toni Kukoc, Rusty LaRue, Dickey Simpkins and Bill Wennington). Now, hypothetically speaking, if MJ is assured by Reinsdorf that they will give the one-year deals to him, Dennis, Steve Kerr, Jud Beuchler, Luc Longley and they keep the team together. Now, Phil seemed to really want out because of how toxic his relationship with Krause got. And Scottie wanted to get paid what he felt he was rightfully owed. So signing those two back may or may not have happened. Say Scottie absolutely refuses to sign back with us. Re-sign Scott Burrell, and he could have fit in that backup 3 spot and given you decent production at Small Forward (yes, I know he was a target of MJ's scorn). But at the end of the day, he could have filled in some of the void Scottie had left. He and Toni Kukoc starting at SF would have made up for the loss of Scottie's production. Now say Phil says no. But, looking back at it, Tim Floyd's coaching staff had three holdovers from Phil's staff in 98 (Bill Cartwright, Frank Hamblen and Tex Winter). MJ respected those assistant coaches and would have been able to work with Tim Floyd, I truly believe. They still implemented the triangle offense and the players all knew the system. So say that Reinsdorf goes above Jerry Krause and signs the above-mentioned to those 1-year deals. That means MJ probably doesn't go on vacation and cuts his index finger half off with a cigar-cutter. The lockout happened later in 1998 and lasted until the beginning of 99. So that means these older players get the rest they need to gear up for one more run. And a compressed season of 50 games in 1999 would have been perfect for the aging Bulls. For all intents and purposes, they had the tools and could have at least tried to make one more run and they would have been able to handle the Spurs in the Finals. Say the Bulls lost..at least they tried and it didn't happen, but they attempted to defend their championship and lost, everyone moves on...and besides honestly, the 1999 and 2000 NBA drafts were some of the worst draft classes ever, so tanking out the season as they did wouldn't have gotten you another franchise star any of those next couple of draft classes anyway. Now all of the above-mentioned is butterfly effect. Krause got his way and we all know how that panned out. But what could have been...and if they faltered and lost, at least they had the opportunity to try.

That Spurs team was really good. It might actually be the most dominant of the Spurs Championship teams because they swept the Lakers and the Blazers and those were the two best teams the following year. Bulls vs Spurs would have been a great match up.

The reason I think they win a 4th is, I agree with the 50 game season gives them extra rest, but as for the Spurs winning, it is VERY rare that a team wins the NBA title on their first try AGAINST AN EXPERIENCED CHAMPION from the year before. That year that the Spurs won, they were inexperienced, and so were the Knicks. So they were 2 "fresh teams" playing for the chip. Look at the Pistons when they won... their first trip to the finals, they lost against the experienced Lakers that had won the year before. Then the Pistons swept the Lakers their second year. When the Sixers won the Championship in 1983 against the Lakers, that was on their second straight trip to the finals after losing it the year before to the Lakers. When the Lakers were playing Boston in the finals, the Lakers beat the Celtics in 1985, after losing to the Celtics in 1984. And that is why I say the Utah Jazz's best chance to win a title was their second year reaching the finals against the Bulls, because they would not have been nervous being on the "Finals" stage. But we know how that all turned out. And to me that is one of the major reasons why MJ is the goat. Let's take Lebron and Miami against and the Spurs. So that is usually the narrative ... a team's first trip to the finals against an experienced champion (a champion that won the year before) would almost always lose, because the finals is the highest stage, and that team would make more mistakes coming down the stretch of a game than the reigning champion would. And for that reason, the Spurs would have lost to the Bulls, and the Bulls would have picked up their 4th straight. Remember, the Bulls never got rattled on the road, because they had been there so many times before, and the other team's home court advantage played no part in rattling the Bulls. They had already won against Phoenix when Phoenix had home court advantage 4-2, and they won against Utah when Utah had home court advantage 4-2.

@novembernicolas5230

3 жыл бұрын

Actually the knicks played in the 94 finals they lost to the rockets

@sheldonmckenzieel2552

3 жыл бұрын

@@novembernicolas5230 Yep and that was their (Ewing, Starks etc) first trip to the finals, and they lost to the Rockets (also their first trip to the finals). That one was wide open. The Knicks actually should have won that series. I watched it live (TV live). They blundered game 6.

@jakedooley5300

3 жыл бұрын

@@sheldonmckenzieel2552 you know alot about basketball bro, you're definitely not a casual fan, I could tell by your comments

@sheldonmckenzieel2552

3 жыл бұрын

@@jakedooley5300 Thank you bro, I have been following NBA Hoops since the 80's. Most of the games and highlights that people now watch on KZread, I watched live on TV (or live at the stadium). And for the Bulls, I have all televised games from 1989 - 1998 , including Playoffs, all on tape. So I watched MJ when he was losing to the Pistons in '89, and in '90, before breaking through in 91'. I saw the game against Cleveland live when he hit the shot on Elho on TV., etc.

11:16. Thank's For saying this, I'm a die hard spurs fan it's my birthplace. But i also loved the Bull's of the '90s and you're channel. This without a doubt would've been the Bull's hardest match up even more so than Houston. This Spurs team was on a misson that year. They swept the three time to be championship lakers this same year in '99. They we're absolutely unstoppable. Now, The '99 sesaon would've had the bull's a longer vacation but when the season began you also had several back to backs in all an incrediblely short amount of time for several months to make-up a 50 win shorten season. This schedule would've shredded the aging Bull's with jordon at age 36 plus even if they got past the east, i seriously doubt they would've had enough to put up against both prime David and Timmy. I understand you're a bull's channel you love jordon more than anyone else probably, but even you have to admit all this I'm sure. My Spurs we're going to win that year regardless, of who they we're facing, healthy of course. You can't say oh because they have Jordan's killer instinct and go back on what you just said. Explain, how they'd get past prime David Robinson and Tim Duncan with a loaded team? Using an aging injured riddled bull's team with title experience?. It's just not happening. And i do know jordon is the greatest player of my generation. But he isn't beating one the strongest version's of my Spurs championship team's. I mean seriously you have to find the line of separating myth from reality-based observations. This isn't happening for the bull's in 1999. And It's really a Damm Shame a little man in the bull's organization with a napoleon complex is to blame for all this!.

Nice content. I subscribed already and I'm a bulls fan as well. Thank you!

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Appreciate the sub!

The 99 Spurs vs 99 Bulls w 2nd 3peat roster would have been a very interesting NBA Finals.

@Outlaw8908

9 ай бұрын

Definitely would have been one I would have watched eagerly.

Hot take: If derrick rose never got injured and the bulls kept jimmy Butler would they have gotten at least one title.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting, seems like more of a question than a hot take, but I like it!

@MrDammit7

3 жыл бұрын

I doubt it

@kylemoses6914

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, we’re talking about a Derrick Rose without damaged legs and mental state. He would have been better than 2011 Rose. Pair that with Jimmy Butler and you have the most dominant backcourt in the league.

@benjaminan1183

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrDammit7 Why?

@dvvaughn564

3 жыл бұрын

nope

This would have been a 7 game series where the Bulls win on a jump shot by MJ to win it all.

@keithjoseph128

3 жыл бұрын

Six games was an underachievement for this team.

i agree, they would have beat the Spurs. probably win in 7 games, with Jordan having to score like 48 points, and maybe a game winner

@alexdelarge703

3 жыл бұрын

What a specific prediction

@rapidshareag3962

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry man, but being from Chicago, the local media had reported jordan having to be carried to the bus in Utah following Game 6.... he was tired in '93, and dead-tired in '98.... Jackson was gone, PERIOD, and IF Pippen had stayed, he needed more offseason surgery.... No way jordan could carry the team in a shortned season and then beat the Pacers without home-court advantage!!!!

@nervinokaras

3 жыл бұрын

The Spurs would have won in 5

@rapidshareag3962

3 жыл бұрын

@@nervinokaras I could see the Bulls pushing it to 6, but I really can't see the Bulls getting out the East.

@the-real-fucius

3 жыл бұрын

yup, word

You mentioned that the Knicks had Anthony Mason in 99. Anthony Mason wasnt on the Knicks in 1999. He left the Knicks in 96. The Knicks replaced him with Larry Johnson. Sad thing for the Knicks is Larry Johnson was injury prone and his productivity declined during his Knicks years. Anthony Mason was on the Hornets from 96-2000. I've always felt the Knicks would of been much better off had they kept Anthony Mason as there defensive anchor. Sorry if I'm knit picking. Just thought I'd mention this. P.s love your channel and I've enjoyed being subscribed Keep up the great content. PEACE. RIP Anthony Mason.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

No you're totally right and I meant Larry Johnson, not sure why I was thinking Anthony Mason, someone else called this out as well. Glad you're enjoying the channel and thanks for tuning in my man!

Great video! I'm glad I reminded you!

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it my man!

Great Coverage! 🤙🏿

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

I can see this being one of the greatest Finals of all time. Down 3-2 the Bulls win game 6 and then eke out a victory in a game 7 that goes to overtime. This is the end of the line though for the Bulls dynasty even if they played in the 99-00 season together, the Lakers next season are simply too good and I'm not even sure they could get past the Pacers.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

But maybe Phil Jackson isn't coaching the 2000 Lakers.

Nice content. In my opinion, they could win 7th that year, and even though they will face tough challenges come playoff time, 90s Bulls are still the 90s Bulls. Always dominant and will always find a reason to win at all cost.

I think they would have won as the bulls beat other super star bigs like Ewing and Shaq for the Magic

@vernonleewarren280

3 жыл бұрын

That's very true

@Gmacshow

3 жыл бұрын

Not to mention howard and cwebb as well in 97 and kemp and detlef in 96

@ryandevries3427

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with this comment, as well as the video. My thought is maybe it would have gone seven games for the first time for the Bulls in the finals. But I would like a seasoned coach in Phil Jackson over a young Gregg Poppovich in a game 7 situation, even though it could have been in San Antonio.

@davenue3428

3 жыл бұрын

By 1998, 1999, David Robinson became much less a factor. Not the same player in the early 90s. And if the Bulls stayed together, it means the Spurs would not have Steve Kurr who knocked down a few crucial 3 pointers so the Spurs won the final.

@rapidshareag3962

3 жыл бұрын

Knicks only had one star/hall of famer, and Ewing aint Olajuwon or Robinson or Duncan.... he was awful in their '96 matchup with those bad knees he developed by '95.... And Orlando Shaq and '99 Shaq are 2 totally diff animals!!!!

Great channel, DIEHARD 90’s Bulls fan here, just subscribed to you.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Hey thanks! Appreciate the sub! Go Bulls!

Bulls didn't face any great centers in Finals, but did eliminate centers like Mourning, Ewing, and Shaq in the East.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

Mutombo and Brad Daugherty also. Brad Daugherty was pretty good. Just got overshadowed by all the other big men playing at that time.

I wouldn't ever bet against MJ GOAT he would definetely win the chip in 1999

Thundering down the stretch, the Spurs made a dramatic late season charge! They began to steam roll their opponents! But the Spurs were just getting warmed up. Fun fact: that Spurs team has Bulls Steve Kerr, Will Perdue, and Houston Rockets two time champ Mario Ellie! Would be a VERY interesting series. That Spurs team was also one of the greatest team defensive units in history.Their top-ranked defense got even better in the playoffs as San Antonio allowed just over 81 points per game and had more games with opponents scoring in the 60s (2) than they had games with opponents scoring in the 100s (1). That's remarkable.

This video could have been one second long... "Yes"

Much respect to the Rockets and Spurs, my emotional choice would have been the Bulls still. They are the types who want to see how far they will go and know who is out to knock them out. I agree with the other comments that it would given MJ motivation.

Most likely yes

This was a great question

The Spurs had one big thing all Bulls Finals opponents lacked, elite centers. The only center they faced was Ewing with the Riley-led Knicks, the only team that gave them any competition. But put them against Duncan AND Robinson, the story is very different. Throw in a coach like Pop, the mountain gets higher. The Bulls could win, but it would be their hardest challenge yet, by a mile.

@holypoop88

3 жыл бұрын

They swept the Magic with Shaq in the playoffs.

@balmorehernandez2226

3 жыл бұрын

Bulls were the smarterst team at that moment and the spurts have no one to slow Jordan if they had put Elliot on Jordan who was gonna guard pippen. Rod could slow down Robinson n Phil would come out with plan for duncan...

@broadstreet21

3 жыл бұрын

@@balmorehernandez2226 Spurs were also quite smart, Pop is the only coach who could match Jackson for wits. He has too many options, he could break Phil's triangle. Who would guard Pippen if Elliot covers Jordan? Try Duncan. Rod could slow down Robinson, but not enough. Keep in mind, the Knicks pushed the Bullsvtonsevdn games. Spurs are deeper, smarter, better than those Knicks. They could beat the Bulls.

@balmorehernandez2226

3 жыл бұрын

@@broadstreet21 no the Knicks were very physical team not the spurt

@broadstreet21

3 жыл бұрын

@@balmorehernandez2226 Spurs don't need to be physical. They were smart, smart enough to give the Bulls a run for their money.

Yup thats 7 & 8 if they still have the core and coaching staff till 2000...MJ is obsess in winning..

@michaelwade9170

3 жыл бұрын

1999 yes 2000 no Lakers would still take 2000

@Airfox6309

3 жыл бұрын

@@michaelwade9170 Oh hell no...shaq will have loose his focus on rodman...and u think young kobe will score on MJ? C'mon...

@michaelwade9170

3 жыл бұрын

@@Airfox6309 I would of rooted for the bulls in 2000 but the reason is this Jordan would of been 37 in 2000 I think the bulls get out of the east in 2000 past ny Mia find mil but against the Lakers in 2000 shaq would of abused the bulls centers Jordan & Kobe back & 4th but Shaq makes the difference 99 the bulls defently take 99 if Krause didn't break them up but 2000 no

@FireAngelChris

3 жыл бұрын

Lol y’all crazy man 🤣🤣them boys was worn down by 98 and y’all talking about 5 straight titles

@michaelwade9170

3 жыл бұрын

@@FireAngelChris not 2000 but defently 1999 if Jerry Krause hadn't broken them up if they all came back in 99 I think 99 would of went down like this 1st round bulls 3 Knicks 1 round 2 bulls 4 hawks 0 conference finals bulls 4 pacers 3 99 finals bulls 4 spurs 2 but 2000 Lakers win no matter what

Here's some ultimate fan fiction: MJ wins one more title with the Bulls, then follows Phil to LA and wins another three with Shaq and Kobe.

@kspcostadeleste8905

Жыл бұрын

ultimate ultimate fan fiction

@nickslade3978

7 ай бұрын

Could the Lakers have afforded Jordan on top of everyone they had though?

The fist pump right into the Scottie hug.....too Fluent!

It would be tough. The Spurs v Bulls in the 1997/98 season were great matchups. And I think the Bulls won the 1st one in OT without Pippen and also won at the Alamodome as well

I don't think they would have their core: Jackson didn't want to coach, Pippen wanted more money which would give problems with the salary cap.

@DelightFools

3 жыл бұрын

Dang you slow, this is literally the “what if” scenario of the obvious you just mentioned

Michael Jordan made the important point the Bulls deserved their shot to defend the title that championship run will never happen again

Hot take: If we get a top 4 pick that's not the no.1 pick we should trade it along with lauri markannen for dejounte Murray since the spurs are already interested in markannen. Murray is a great young PG with a lot of potential plus he plays great defense (he even made an all-defensive team in his second season) which will really help us. Love your content man keep it up.

12:22....I was at that game.........great times!!!!!

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Oh nice!

They would have definitely won a 4th in a row and their 7th. Jordan would have then retired for good without thinking of coming out of retirement again the 2nd time ala Wizards. Thus Jermaine O Neal wouldn’t have clowned himself in the 03’ All Star game which was the biggest blunder in its history, as Jordan wouldn’t have been there.

The age thing in the nba is a myth, older teams are usually the title winners

Analysis aside, the highlight-cut is one of the best I've ever seen. I think they could definitely have won in '99.. I don't know if they would have in 94' - MJ was mentally exhausted, he needed the break.

This is a nice video. Just a slight point of criticism: Little too much exposition at the beginning. Took almost five minutes until we got into the nuts n' bolts of the actual subject matter.

They had to got through a superstar center multiple times in Patrick Ewing and they did it. So, i don't think its as big a deal as you're making out of it. And i don't recall the Spurs playing any where near that smash mouth New York defense. So, I feel like MJ and company would've done just fine.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

Swept Shaq in 96

Jordan would’ve been 36 in a 1999 Finals series.

@MakaveliDior

3 жыл бұрын

I think that's not a problem

Jason Caffey was traded mid-season in 1997-98. Because the GM wanted Kukoc to play more minutes come Playoff time. It baffled everyone. Because as you know, that man was a Beast.

I agree. It would be a tough match-up but Bulls find a way to win. One point you didn't touch on. Although older Rodman often kept Shaq in check throughout his career. So he'd do his job against their center!

The bulls could have won 2 more titles I believe , Anyway Spurs vs Bulls in '99 and Lakers vs Bulls in '00 would have been spectacular

@ckw9901

3 жыл бұрын

I personally believe they would have lost the 00 finals with a prime Shaq at the peak of his ability’s and a young Kobe who would have been way more energetic than an older Jordan also I feel like MJ would have still been one of the best in the game in this period but I think KB and Shaq would be to much for an older bulls team

@johnniepalacios9381

3 жыл бұрын

I disagree. Kobe had not grown into himself yet. He would've been in too much awe playing against mj in the finals. Shaq was Shaq, but Rodman would toy with his mind to remove his Superman cape. Phil Jackson would be on the Chicago sidelines and of course, how do you beat Michael when he has center stage. They would've beaten the Spurs in 5 and the Lakers in 6.

@craigjohnston5781

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnniepalacios9381 yeah keeping this team together is a fun thought experiment, who coaches the Lakers if Phil is still with the bulls, is Steve Kerr on that 99 Spurs team or did he stay with the bulls? Its interesting all around.

I think they would have made it to the finals, I mean the 8th seed Knicks did. I am not to sure if they would have beaten the Spurs

@ranholic5027

3 жыл бұрын

Spurs had young duncan i think its his sophomore year and older Robinson with role players on the roster.. and kerr will not be in the spurs jersey if that also happens... Also Coach pop had no experience in the finals with Mj and the bulls, they probably feel the pressure and it will be mental all series long.. remember the knicks got one win against the spurs with no Ewing(injured) in the lineup..

Perhaps the greatest dynasty in all of team sports, the 6 time NBA World Champions, the Chicago Bulls!!!!! Outstanding video!!!

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir! 🙏

@gordonmcgowan5622

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral You're welcome sir!👍

People always talk about how good players were when comparing them, and sure the spurs on paper seem like they would beat a old bulls team but people never take in the personality of the players. MJ would of been so determined to get that last championship that I actually don't think any team would of stopped them. As long as Scottie's back was okay and rodman didn't get any worse they would of won in a game 7

If The GOAT didnt retire it would have been 9 straight

@emack4371

3 жыл бұрын

@No More Words Get the hell on hater....Knicks aint win shit.....u must be a hater or on some shit....4 hall of famers.....name them....Bill Russell played will atleast 7.....shut up

@emack4371

3 жыл бұрын

@No More Words Kukoc aint no hall of famer u DICKHEAD

@jansmitowiczauthor78

3 жыл бұрын

@No More Words Your basketball card is revoked fir that blasphemous idiocy

As long as they kept Longley they had a chance.

Yes, with that core and no injuries. Absolutely

I'm sure that Anthony Mason wasn't with the Knicks in 1999, he was traded to the old Charlotte Hornets for Larry Johnson. But hey man, it's fine, glad I found you, Bulls fan since 91 and still am.

I think the Bulls might have one cause it was also a lock out season gives them time to take a break for them and don't count out Jordan he is still the best player in the league at that point the bulls would have won 9 straight if Jordan had not retired after the 93 season LOL

@torhowell5202

3 жыл бұрын

Lol rockets had their number. Hakeem easily avgs 35+pts 12rebs 5asts-blks-stls in 94-95. Bulls lucky if it goes 5

@TETRARCHFREAK666

3 жыл бұрын

@@torhowell5202 it's all just speculation I don't think the bulls really would have won more titles even Jordan didn't retire in 93 I mean the second three peat the bulls had was really tough they had just enough gas to make the last 2titles become a reality

@rossejera1661

3 жыл бұрын

@@torhowell5202 Jordanless bulls were 2-1 against the rockets in 94-95. They were 9-2 in 1995-1998 when MJ came back. Rockets "had their number" after the team disbanded. LOL casual

@torhowell5202

3 жыл бұрын

@@rossejera1661 damn thats all sorts of wrong but you felt like a winner I can tell.

@gregoryziers5406

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Jeff, to comment on your post, I don’t think the bulls would of won 9 stright titles. Had Karuse not messed up the bulls after ‘98, yes I agree they probably would nine titles. But I don’t see them winning in ‘94 and ‘95, due to increased competition on the Eastern conference at that time. In ‘94-95’ Houston was in contention Haekeen- drexyler. Orlando was as well (Shaq and Penny) and Indiana. Yes I do see the bulls as a play off contender in 1994 1995. They would three peated in ‘96;’97, and ‘98. After 1998, I’m just speculating this point, they would of won in ‘99 against the Spurs in 7. As the other posters mentioned , ‘99 was a lockout year, so they would of rested. At that time ‘99-‘00, the lakers and spurs were coming into contention. For ‘00, I could see the bulls losing to the Lakers in 6. Because Jorden and Pippen, et.Al are aging. After the 2000 season, it’s possible that Jorden signs an extension trough 2004 season. This just speculation. I suspected that ‘01 and ‘02 season would been rebuilding time for the bulls, trying build around an aging MJ. Who knows they would of acquired. If they acquired the right playes, I could see them winning two more titles in ‘03 and ‘04. Then after 2004, I could see Jorden retiring at 40. I’ve seen nba players playing into their 40s. Had Karuse not messed the bulls up, I could see them winng nine titles. ‘90-‘93 titles 1-3 ‘96-98 titles 3-6 ‘99 (7), ‘03(8) , ‘04(9)

Hot Take: Bulls trade Coby Patrick Lauri Troy brown and picks for Lillard

Yes Shorter season due to the lockout allowing more rest for them going into the season. Likely MJ's last season with the Bulls which would have motivated him even more to go out with the biggest bang possible. The Spurs would have been a good opponent. It should have been the Lakers but they were not mature enough as a team until Phil arrived.

I'm a huge fan of the Jordan era Bulls and the Duncan era Spurs. A Spurs vs Bulls finals would have been an epic series. I could make a case for both teams winning it all that season. I'm willing to bet that series would have went the full 7 games. As much as I'd want Jordan to win #8 and Duncan/Robinson to win their first title, I honestly have no clue who would come out on top. Either way I'd be super happy for who ever won. :-)

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Epic series to say the least!

This is actually the first video that includes the “1999 NBA Lockout”, which actually happen people in their 20’s! With only 50 games of course the Bulls would of won a 7th NBA championship! The Pacers lost to the Knicks in the NBA playoffs since it was a the Spurs and the Knicks in the NBA finals, Jordan would of smashed the Spurs and Rodman would of played mind games with Duncan, plus Steve Kerr would of never joined the Spurs in 99, so of course the Bulls would of won a 7th championship based off of experience! Now in 2000, against Shaq and Kobe that’s when they would of lost in the finals and maybe that would of been the final chapter for Jordan and we never saw him in a Washington Wizards jersey?

@toosweet39lik

3 жыл бұрын

exactly!!!!!!!! Rodman would've been all in Duncan head, Bulls in 5

@jasonsal6742

3 жыл бұрын

U are a fool!! 😂😂😂 Rodman would have not been able to defend Tim Duncan.😂😂😂 U do know by the time Tim Duncan came into the NBA he was a established player. He had gained so much experience in college 👉 (the awards and accomplishments speak for themselves.) He was a established champion already in college. It is why he won rookie of the year his first season easily. And he was already putting up double doubles every game. There is not a player who could stop Tim Duncan from getting his points. He was gonna get that double double. Also ppl don't realize that Tim Duncan was scoring 50+/40+/30+ points a game in his early years.💯😂😂😂The fact Tim was a team player, not a stat player.. should scare anyone with a brain!💯 And Michael Jordan was asked at his basketball camp by the kids who is the greatest basketball player playing in the NBA at the moment. Michael Jordan responded with. "There are alot of great players in the NBA right now playing. But if yur asking me who I think is the greatest player playing in the NBA right now.. I would have to say Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA right now." Keep in mind Jordan said this with a Koby, Shaq, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, etc.. all playing at a elite lvl in the NBA and Jordan put Tim Duncan ahead of all of them. It's because I been saying it! Tim Duncan was the best player after Jordan with Koby not being far behind. Jordan knows his shit and speaks Facts! It's also on video footage so go seek out the truth!💯 Fans r toooooooo 😂😂😂✌️

@toosweet39lik

3 жыл бұрын

All Rodman had to do is get in his head , frustrating him to knock him off his game. END OF DISCUSSION’n BULLS WIN IN 5

@jasonsal6742

3 жыл бұрын

@@toosweet39lik also bro maybe u need to go watch Kevin Garnett's interview about Tim Duncan.. the mind games wouldn't have worked on a player like Timmy and Garnett will tell u why.💯👍

@toosweet39lik

3 жыл бұрын

When asked about Jordan, Duncan said he didn’t care for Jordan. Duncan continue saying that Jordan wasn’t a great player. That alone would’ve fueled the fire in Jordan to beat the Spurs

The Spurs started the season 6-8 and then went on a tear to finish first and then in the playoffs swept the blazers and lakers who were the favorites that year, with all that momentum I wouldn’t be surprised if they had swept the bulls too but having the experience edge they probably would have won one or two

@explosivehotdogs

3 жыл бұрын

I'm on the fence with this one... on the one hand Steve Kerr wouldn't have been with the Spurs, on the other he didn't have a huge impact numbers wise in the 99 finals. Rodman may have stepped it up as he is know to do, but by the end of the regular season the Spurs also had the Lakers' number where he was then located. Sure the Bulls came out on top of the Spurs in the previous season, but it was also Duncan's rookie year and the chemistry between himself and Robinson only got better. I've got much respect for the Bulls of that era and I keep my lifelong love for the Spurs in check when I say it would have been too close to call. All you Bulls fanatics should go back and watch some more Spurs basketball from that year and think about the outcome a bit more. Of course this is just all a mental exercise in the end - reality is reality !

@Emma-dh1lx

3 жыл бұрын

@@explosivehotdogs Agreed!

Yes!! No question!!

It's all hypothetical but with a shortened season, 50 games if Im not mistaken, they have a very good shot.

Wennington would have destroyed the twin towers with his footwork and paint moves

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

LOL!!

Bulls in 5, because Avery Johnson couldn't shoot, nor defend, and he certainly couldn't take on MJ.

@vernonleewarren280

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! I was shocked when he said that Avery Johnson was a great point guard. Really? No he was a above average point guard

@RaiderGannon12

3 жыл бұрын

Funny how people could think Jordan and Bulls could not lose in the NBA Finals, under the right circumstances they could have lost. 99 was the Spurs years, no team was going to beat them 4 times in a series in the playoffs. Bulls won there First Championship in part to Magic already having the early part of virus in him which was slowing him down in the series and James Worthy and Byron Scott were not healthy, Teams like the Blazers, Suns and Jazz didn't have that dog in them to compete when the Chips were on the line.

@manuelrodriguez9972

3 жыл бұрын

@@RaiderGannon12 You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The Bulls at their prime still, unbeatable. I’ve been watching the NBA since 1990, and I’ve never seen a team so dominant like the ‘90s Bulls.

Would have been an amazing finals, that’s for sure. Great video as always. Question, is there one Bulls game that stands out to you above all others for you? Maybe it was the most exciting, most significant, or just entertaining... Maybe you could choose one from the Jordan era, and one from the Rose era? Just a thought. I’d love to find out so I can look it up and watch. Im already missing bulls basketball!!

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! And great questions actually! I'll have to think about that one, but Game of the first round of the 2009 playoffs against the Celtics comes to mind.

@JoeTheBlacksmith13

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral which game if that series? Thanks for the suggestion!

@keith_Michael_121

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral Rose was youngest player to get 40 something points ever. Those Hinrich/Gordon/Rose/Deng/Nocioni/Duhon teams were so exciting tho Deng missed the series but John Salmons played great in his place at PF in that series, Kirk was the SF !!! Can't remember if Chandler was still there but Tyrus Thomas was, Noah & Brad Miller. Chandler was gone.

@keith_Michael_121

3 жыл бұрын

@@JoeTheBlacksmith13 it was game 1 of 2nd round or maybe 1st round

@JoeTheBlacksmith13

3 жыл бұрын

@@keith_Michael_121 thanks!!

That dunk at 8:58...WOW!

I made it about halfway through before I realized I'm just watching Jordan highlights and what he's saying is just white noise in the background.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

I made it about halfway through this comment, realized that it was gibberish and carried on with my day

@krump743

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral To be fair, you never carried on with your day though, cause you had to come back at some point in the future, after your rebutle was posted and edited the comment reply, back to the "gibberish" original comment.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

@@krump743 And you took the time out of your day to comment and help the KZread algorithm. Thanks! I'll carry on with my day now. You know you can edit it seconds after your reply because you realize there is a typo. Think buddy

@krump743

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral lmfao still had to edit it clown which meant u gave it a second thought after you posted it which meant you didn't carry on with ur day as you claimed. Also the algorithm ain't gonna help your channel grow mate. Here is a comment for ur algorithm

@krump743

3 жыл бұрын

@@BullsCentral and another one

lol, ... "MJ would have taken something personally to fuel his drive" if that ain't the truth...

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

🤣😂

As a knock on effect if Bulls had stayed together for 99, then Phil has his year off in 2000, so maybe Lakers don’t 3peat. Which would have made the Bulls’ 3 (&4) peats even more special.

Yes 💯

I almost said no because they were so clearly tired by the end of the second threepeat. But the shortened season...

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

That and.....it's MJ

Does anyone knows what song is playing through the video?

I don't know, man, at that point Rodman was seemingly completely unmotivated to play at a high level anymore. As incredible as he was in his prime, I don't think he would've been able to slow Robinson and / or Duncan down, hence the Spurs might've been able to win.

With it being a lockout year I think it’s totally possible, that extra rest would’ve been huge for them but I do agree Robinson and Duncan could’ve gave Rodman and Longley a very tough situation to overcome, but if MJ gets to the finals I just can’t see him losing it when he knows he can get 4 in a row, the spurs could’ve been shook seeing the 3 peat bulls in the finals mentally and if the bulls add their draft pick Corey Benjamin only even or draft Rafer Alston instead and let’s say they drop Randy brown for that slot I like their chances honestly

You forgot to mention Shawn Kemp who they faced in 96. In 1996 Shawn Kemp was unbelievably good and athletic and the Bulls handled him pretty good. I would rate a 96 Shawn Kemp higher than a 99 Tim Duncan.

@johnniepalacios9381

3 жыл бұрын

I agree.

Anthony Mason was out of the Knicks since 1996 who was traded for Larry Johnson

Don't forget about Shawn Kemp...who was an absolute beast at the time that they seen him at 6'10

@mikewazowski188

3 жыл бұрын

Kemp like 6’7 🤣

This assumes the Bulls would've remained completely unchanged in 1999, but in reality they likely would've brought in some young talent to offset their age, perhaps a big who could've helped in the frontcourt against the Spurs. The Bulls have never had a star Center but always took care of teams in the East with dominant Centers, like Shaq, Ewing, Mourning...

These Bulls at their prime are something out of the norm, they were so dominant, that Jordan was sometimes laying back and resting giving some hope to the other teams, and in the end crushing their dreams. They thought they could beat them, nah, don’t even think about it, they are unbeatable.

@b9479

3 жыл бұрын

DETROIT PISTONS!!!!!

I'd never underestimate Duncan and Robinhood. Them boys were a problem. Definitely a team stacked with chemistry. I think if those teams played in the finals it would be very close games, all competitive, all nail biters...Bulls in 5. Also don't forget if the Lakers could have beat the damn Jazz in 1998 it would have been a Kobe-Shaq vs Jordan-Pippen finals that year. Would have been dope.

@BullsCentral

3 жыл бұрын

I really wanted it to be Lakers and the Bulls 98. Seeing the same Jazz team again was so underwhelming

@gregoryziers5406

2 жыл бұрын

I agree, that would of been epic, in 1998. Kobe-Shaq vs. Jorden and Pippen. That could of happened in 2000. That’s what I have, in an alternate timeline. Yes I have the bulls winning in 1999 against San Antonio Spurs. I have the bulls in 7 for that. For 2000, I have bulls vs. Lakers. It’s hard to image an aging bulls team going against Kobe and Shaquille o Neal. Given Pippen and Jorden, et.Al are aging. I don’t see them winning in 2000 against the Lakers. So I’m going out on a limb, 2000 nba finals, bulls vs Lakers, Lakers in 6. It would of been classic. After 2000, I could see the bulls going through a rebuilding phase, to build a team around and aging MJ. Who knows what would gotten. Probably gotten Rasheed Wallace, Bonzi Wells, Gary Paton and Karl Malone. After 2000, I could see Jorden playing til 2004 (age 40). I’ve seen NBA players, playing into their 40s. Anyways, I could see Jorden winning a another title in 2003 and 2004. It could of happened if MJ. Had right team. That what I have in my alternate history time line 1999 Bulls beat Spurs in 7 2000- bulls lose to Lakers in 6. 2001-2002, rebuilding, motivated by 2000 finals lost, motiveD Jorden signs extension through 03-04 season (pure speculation) 2003- bulls beat Spurs in 7. 2004- bulls beat lakers in 6. lakers didn’t have Gery Payton and Malone. And kobe was dealing with his legal issues at that time(fatigue) Shaqs relationship with the Lakers was falling apart. Jorden retires at 40 that season. Unfortunately, in reality that didn’t happen.

Please make that video!! I’ve always said the Bulls could’ve won 8 or 9 or even 10 straight titles had Jordan not retired!! Make that video!!

If The Bulls had 1 more season, I'm seeing Pippen stepping in as the main guy with Jordan coming in during the 4th quarter clutch when needed. Kukoc also becoming more of a Robin to Scottie's Batman on offensive usage. By this point, MJ just wanted another ring and would be willing to ride Scottie and Kukoc through the season and into the playoffs all the way to the Conference Finals where he would be set up with the opportunity to win.

From a Chicagoan who lived the last 3 titles, they were too banged up ( I don't think the lockout would've been enough even). I think they would've made it out the east without too much trouble, but would've lost to the Spurs in 6..Spurs had the perfect defensive lineup for a banged up worn out dynasty.. Still would've loved to see MJ try one more time though.

The Bulls had Luc who was a good system player and The Worm to whatever capacity one may want to adscribe for the matchup with Timmy or The Admiral. Now there is no taking anything away from the accomplishments of the Little General here from me, I think he had lots of grit, but in this scenario MJ would have a field day with the Spurs backcourt. Both Mario Elie 6'5" (no push-over) Jaren Jackson 6"4 (no scrub) would draw an impossible assignment. Antonio Daniels 6'4" was in his rookie season. Just for contrast, Ninja was a 6'8" SF in year 9 of his career and probably a bit heavier then, but he wasn't 220 Lbs like MJ. I'll say, I am thinking Jordan would have his most efficient finals ever had this series happened.

No doubt!!!

Would have been interesting to see 99' Spurs vs. 99' Bulls (if kept intact from 98). If the Spurs beat the Bulls that year, it would be a nice "transition" from one era to another.

Hard to say Bulls would still have won, Rodman was on his last legs, but i believe you could still go with Jordan pushing him but Pippen was still recovering from his back problems and that would be a huge hit to and Bulls were already showing signs of ageing the previous year. They would have to rely alot of Toni Kukoc to step up which he actually did as he led that team post breakup in alot of categories.

I think so, not because it's expected, but because it wouldn't have been and they would have gotten a much needed break.

I believe so if it would have been the same scenario with the lockout-shortened season and facing the Spurs in the finals even with Tim Duncan and David Robinson that wasn't really a good team

The problem is fatigue. The Spurs were knocked out in the second round in 98. The Bulls played 22 playoff games and that’s not counting the 2 previous titles.

Absolutely

Of course!

Of course they would, no question !!! Imagine MJ23 have played 94 & 95 seasons to !!! 2 or 3 rings more !!! for sure

@jaytee84

3 жыл бұрын

1999 yes.. 1994 and a full 1995 they would've been better but had no one to slow down Hakeem

@narod_naj_prvi

3 жыл бұрын

@@jaytee84 ok let's say Houston wins it in 94 no chance MJ would lose 95 from same team or guy it would be personal for him and we know how it always end when MJ takes it personal 😅

@gruberhans1062

3 жыл бұрын

I dont know if they would have beat the rockets both seasons, cartwright was starting to age and Hakeem was at the top of his game

I didnt even listen, i just enjoyed the video

I think the lockout season hurt every team but I believe it wouldn’t have hurt the bulls and maybe an easy title run in 99. Nobody was impressive that year but I loved how scrappy the knicks looked and they were an 8th seed. Worst case scenario they would of definitely took the East without a doubt.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

Probably Knicks don't make playoffs with Bulls team in playoffs since they were the 8th seed. Knicks just took a while to get chemistry with short season. They had it come playoff time.

@joejett5084

3 жыл бұрын

@@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO. I wanted Pat E to get a chip. Even before his injury the team was struggling. I thought they wouldn’t make but figured it out in time and made a great playoff run. It was an open title year and turned into the beginning of the spurs dynasty. They probably wouldn’t had made it. Would they have had the heart to go against a bulls team coming off of a 3 peat? That era was different tho, it could of put a bigger target on the bulls.

@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO.

3 жыл бұрын

@@joejett5084 i feel you. I couldn't cheer for Knicks in finals that year without Ewing playing. I wanted him to be part of the reason they won the chip.

@joejett5084

3 жыл бұрын

@@GABRIELA-ACEVEDO. I agree, he put in the work and carried them for so long. Couldn't get past Olujawon, Jordan, missed the layup against the Pacers and then gets injured in a toss up season.

Rodman was a shell of himself after the 98 season. He only played 35 games after leaving Chicago. The Bulls knew this too. His playing time was being reduced during the 98 season because he wasn’t as effective as he had been in the past. Jordan was exhausted after basically willing them to victory in 98. Pipen was on the decline. The 99 season was only 50 games but the schedule didn’t have as many off days. That could have really hurt the aging Bulls if they had nagging injuries and limited rest days. I think they would have needed a new power forward to replace Rodman or atlesst pick up significant minutes. All that said, the east was weak so the Bulls probably make the finals. Probably a 7 game battle with the Spurs and a coin flip ending. Jordan usually won those so it’s very likely the Bulls win in 99.

if 1996-1998 bulls never dismantle and all players renew their contracts their team remain top team it could be 4 or more additional championship rings.... for sure...

I say no - and I was such a huge Bulls fan due to Jordan, Pippen etc. I just think it would've fallen off the rails. Michael cut his finger badly in the offseason - and the Spurs were such a great team - I just think they would've overpowered the Bulls frontline assuming the Bulls wouldn't fortify it. It would've been ugly.