Energy density doesn't really matter for grid storage. The key is when the production line is actually producing instead of a "next year" talking point. How many cycles and the cost of production are what matter.

@fuzzywzhe

8 ай бұрын

I'm doubtful. First, it's in China, and China is well known for frauds. Second, sodium ion batteries are still an unproven technology.

For anyone wanting to understand this in greater detail, Great Power revealed a few weeks ago on its website that they've managed to breach 150Wh/kg for their cylindrical 26650 SIB cell product and 165-170Wh/kg for their large primastic cell format, both rated at 3000 cycles down to 80% capacity at 100% DOD. These cells have a cathode based on layered metal oxides, like NMC/NCA/LCO in lithium ion cells. Their other innovation has been increasing the cycle life of their polyanion (olivine cathode, like LFP) cathode based cells to 6000 cycles down to 80% capacity at 100% DOD. In essence: 150-170Wh/kg 3000 cycles for the sodium "'NMC" equivalent. ? Wh/kg (probably 120Wh/kg) for the sodium "LFP" equivalent.

@kirkellis4329

Жыл бұрын

Do you know what the volumetric energy density is ? Wh/L for the sodium cells ? What voltage and Ah for the 26650 cells ?

@neutronpcxt372

Жыл бұрын

@@kirkellis4329 No idea for the for the 26650 cells, but I do have 26700 3.5Ah SIB cells on the way that are 130Wh/kg and about 290Wh/L. If we were to scale this to the Great Power cells, an equivalent 26700 cell would be 4Ah and about 330Wh/L.

@yogamon

9 ай бұрын

Probably nmt and nvp sodium cathodes for nmc and lfp lithium cathode equivalents

Na Ion batteries could also be used in farm equipment and mining and industry in colder climates, where a recharge station was on hand.

Hey Viking, at 3:05 you say these batteries have 150 MW/kg. Now that really would be a game changer! We could replace Eraring Power Station with 15kg. Did you perhaps mean W/kg?

@reiniernn9071

Жыл бұрын

My information tells me : 1,5MJ/kg. or ca 0,5KWH/kg...(which is 1,8MJ/kg) Oh, we never have something as W/kg...only Wh/kg.

What excites me most about sodium is it eliminates the need for lithium in these large-scale stationary applications, freeing the lithium supply up for mobility.

Thank you Sam, really appreciate the work you do.

@electricviking

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate that!

I will take this story with lots of grains of salt.

@freetorobandloot

Жыл бұрын

See what you did there. Lol

@LunaTechLV

Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂

@Peye-pv4cb

Жыл бұрын

Is the sodium actually from salt mines they will use in the batteries

@arjunratnadev

11 ай бұрын

lots of salt bags

Iron Air batteries have very very low energy density, but it's spectacularly cheap. The batteries can be stacked on top of each other to reduce the overall battery's footprint.

Welcome to the Fantasy Battery Channel.

I work at an investor owned electric & gas utility in the USA. We have a whole division at a dedicated campus working grid storage - gonna be a lot of dough to the early successes that scale out 😎

Sodium Ion batteries are very interesting and I can not wait for the technology to mature. They seem ideal for stationary, or lower weight sensitive energy storage. I am pretty sure these batteries will be used in applications where -30 degree Celsius (-22 degree Fahrenheit) is expected.

Energy density does matter. It matters, because it costs to build a battery pack using rack, bms, cables, etc. For the same capacity you need to have 2-3 packs. I assume, the inverter and charger will also need to be dedicated for that kind of chemistry. I have not found any cells or packs for sale til now. For some huge energy storage it make sense now, bot for home home energy storage not yet.

Can you please mention kW and kWh correctly.

@iandavies4853

Жыл бұрын

Yes. Energy density cited as 150 Watt-hour per kg.

@jimparr01Utube

Жыл бұрын

Actually it's a tad worse than that as a blooper. @3:05, Sam said 160MW/kG.

@robertfonovic3551

Жыл бұрын

Viking doesn't do accuracy. Just waffles on 😂

@mb-3faze

Жыл бұрын

@@robertfonovic3551 I've learned to let these small verbal typos just slide by. He churns these 'news' clips out so fast, I don't think there's much editing done. :)

@aadvanherk1271

Жыл бұрын

​@@jimparr01UtubeMega, Milli or kW, kWh whats the difference ???

Pretty sure that's 150kwh not 150MW per kilo.

@kkarllwt

Жыл бұрын

What do you expect from a guy who makes 3 videos a day for 2 years ? You are being unreasonable.

@StevenSiew2

Жыл бұрын

Dont be so salty.

@Harrythehun

Жыл бұрын

Is even your statement about kW true? Isn’t it Wh/kg or litre.

@deaconblue949

Жыл бұрын

That's the game changing nuclear ion battery 😂

@croakingembryo

Жыл бұрын

Pretty sure that's 150Wh, not 150kWh per kilo.

3:09 150 MemgaWatts per kg :) 150 Wh should be

Vey interesting and well researched, Sam

If the salt is storing heat to make it work, a car can recapture heat many ways including condensed air released to make mechanical electrostatic energy and friction heat...but also bacteria with moisture should also help the charging if corrosion has been eliminated. In a house mechanical energy should be possible with hour glass/flywheel designs etcs....It seems less about storage capacity of battery vs ease of recharging and slowly discharging. Gravity,mechanical friction,wind,waste heat and magnetism should allow for easy charging of salt batteries.

What about safety aspect? I've heard that they don't explode don't burn. Is that correct? That would be a massive advantage.

@chillfluencer

Жыл бұрын

LiFePo⁴ and Sodium-Ion batteries neither burn nor explode. A small puff and a tiny little bit of smoke. There are countless videos that check that by doing damage to the batteries in whatever kind you think of. Burning and exploding was a problem of unprotected Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries...which you asa user can't even get any more today.

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

@@chillfluencer LiFePo⁴ will still burn, but it is much less likely and much slower, as NMC has a 20x faster thermal runaway. Sodium-Ion will be very difficult to set on fire, but charged it is not impossible. Just drive it into a volcano.

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

@@orionbetelgeuse1937According to the big battery manufacturers the latest sodium batteries should have no thermal runaway and can handle extremely high temperatures. LFP still has thermal runaway, be it at 275 degrees Celcius at a much slower rate than NMC. This means LFP will keep itself burning, whereas Sodium battery fires will need external heat to keep burning if you manage to set it on fire. To be fair, I still need proof of that. The LFP fire test is silly. I want to see how it survived a car crash and an external ignition source.

Sodium ion batteries will replace Lithium ion in EV batteries, once the the super fast charging network is mature and fully deployed across the nation in sufficient saturation. EV Range anxiety simply wont exist once the charging network is fully mature. Sodium is far more abundant than Lithium, cheaper, can charge faster and is safer and works better in winter. Most drivers don't even travel 230 km per day ( representing the lowest storage density of 160 Wh/kg ). For the rare times when people do need to go longer distances, they could hire a car. If they regularly travel longer distances, they could buy a hybrid EV. There's a solution for every use case. On that basis Sodium ion batteries could service a significant chunk of the EV market. Sodium ion batteries would also be great for grid backup storage.

Energy Density of150 MW/kg is double trouble. By two orders of magnitude and the perennial confusion between power and energy. He means 150 Wh/kg RMY

A fairly average fossil fuel generator produces 600 megawatts of electricity, 24/7. Renewables, wind and solar produce an average of less than 50% if their maximum output over a 24 hour period. So, to replace a fossil plant the renewable would have to have a peak production of 1.2 gigawatts. The battery would have to store 600*12/1000= 7.2 Gigawatt hours. And that is not allowing for winter sun or windless days. 5 megawatts is Not grid scale

@polarbear7255

11 ай бұрын

Absolutely spot on… at the scale we need for the grid batteries are a waste of time and resources. A nuclear reactor can generate far more energy from far less material for longer than any battery would ever achieve. Nuclear is also zero emissions and the waste volume is tiny and can be reprocessed. What happens to the square kms of these batteries in 30 years when they are used up? Recycled? The materials? Labour? Waste? Environmental impact? None of these things ever get discussed.

If sodium batteries can be done at scale and with less impact on the environment, then this is a welcome development. I am not holding my breathe through. What’s really ticking me off are the stats I read recently. In Oz we apparently dispose of some 3300 metric tons of Li Ion batteries, from all devises (including EVs) each year, but only 10% is recycled, and the disposal is growing at 20% per annum. That means 3000 tons goes to landfill. So much for recyclers that can’t get enough of the stuff, as its a valuable product. Whats the state of our stewardship rules and recycling regulations? If these stats are true then I would hate to see them repeated year on year even though 95% can be reused in the things. Tell me what these things are, as I would love too know.

This is great news.. This is the future..Na-Ion are totally safe no fire, no freezing, no issue energy cell. The customer once they know it will demand Na-Ion.

I would love for you to go into the safety of install and maintenance of large scale grids like this

The problem with the chip industry and the battery industry is that both have a cartel that monopolizes these technologies. Battery embargo is worse than oil embargo.

Puzzled to hear your thoughts about the price of Li (ie going up). I only see it coming down more and more over time as more and more lithium mines come on stream.

160 Watthours not MEGAWatthours per kilo, normal EVs have a battery pack of a couple hundred kilos and between 54 kW to 85 kW, otherwise, they would have several MWs installed.

Yep, that is what I heard

Does sodium ion have much of an advantage for grid storage over things like pumped water, heat storage, or vanadium redox (the last of which CATL is also making)?

@sebyst7907

Жыл бұрын

Frequency control, and like last year, if it's a dry summer, pumped storage and hydropower was very negatively impacted, can't really happen with sodium batteries

@fritzbloedow29

Жыл бұрын

No moving parts is a big advantage...

Lithium prices will stabilize and not really spike unless a conflict locks up a large reserve. more reserves have been identified and recycling is taking off to where it is cheaper than manufacturing lithium

I'd love to slap Na-ion batteries in my UPSes and hopefully have 15+ years of useful life instead of swapping out SLAs every ~6 years because those things go bad just sitting on shelves. Since Na-ion is supposedly a whole lot more stable than anything lithium-based, Na-ion will hopefully become readily available through official retail channels instead of forcing people to go through the Alibaba hit-or-miss lottery.

Sounds promising for the future. I would expect the "best" experimental battery tech to be on super car/hyper car EV's.

@northernseeker1822

11 ай бұрын

Sodium ion battery is heavier and bigger than lithium.

Sodium is much more reactive than lithium. Sodium’s mass (23) is higher than Lithium (7) but sodium is hugely abundant in sea water as part of the ionic molecule Sodium Chloride. So it is much cheaper.

I wonder what the discharge time will be? Most grid batteries work hourly with a storage period of four to eight hours, which is very convenient for instant fluctuations in demand. However, the Form Energy iron-air battery can store and discharge over a period of 100 hours, making it an ideal "long-term" storage battery. Perhaps sectioning off grid battery sites into short term and long term types of chemistries would help counter the oil industry paid fear mongering out there about intermittency. If anything, grid storage over a 4-100 hour range with millisecond response times would instil genuine fear in fossil fuel investors.

not heard much about silicon chemistry's in a while, its a shame they could never get it elastic enough to get the charge cycles

A possible savior for BEVs. If they can manage to get the energy density and longivity .. it should be scalable unlike Lithium which uses too much water. Lots of cheap sodium around. The entire question alike a lot of battery claims is .. will they produce something that is compeditive? so far.. we have no car with it in producation.

main problem is voltage , it's lower than lithium. so not a drop in replacement.

Can you do a story on the "Alpha Motors - Wolf EV Truck"?

3:48 Energydensity is not that high of a priority on a static storage solution. Mostly, there is space, weight don´t matter. Lifecycle and other stuff is way more important on that point. 160 Wh/kg is by far not much. But sufficent on that point.

When is someone going to take on Duracell or energizer? Seems absolutely ridiculous that nobody has uprooted that market......

Have you ever tested a battery? We can read marketing sheets too.

I believe Na-Ion batteries is key for the next energy revolution. Which listed companies can you invest in to make sure you get a piece of this economy?

So many changes happening very exciting

150 Megawatts per kilo?? Don't you mean 150 Watt-hours per kilo, or something close to that?

Hola, alguien a probado estas baterias que se venden por aliexpress o alibaba si realmente son de sodio y que concluciones pudo sacar ?

85% of UK drivers will not buy a dangerous battery banger.

@8spores

11 ай бұрын

UK is not relevant today

Sodium? I still prefer Vegemite.

Altec Batteries are doing this too

Is this todays new game changer, world first, breakthrough technology blah blah blah or just until the next one pops up in a couple of hours?

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

Developing this kind of stuff takes many years. A lot of the news is out there to satisfy shareholders and attract investors. It will come and it will change everything, just not today.

Morning mate

Great Power, is 100 times smaller than CATL. This could be some exaggeration by GP

As I mentioned 2 years ago

They need to get to market quick. Right now EVs are too expensive and not fit for purpose

You energy density numbers are off, can't be megawatt per kilogram. perhaps 150 watt hour per kilogram?

Polyanion is pronounced "poly-ann-eye-on".

In what? 30+ years?

$$$/kg?

I think each backseat should have a small set of paddles and children should be forced to pedal charge the car while it travels

I don’t know you, but I am so tired of “wills” and “mays” that I am in the process of having 0 expectations and the more the fanfare the less I have hopes. Not to speak that China is big in its mouth.

cheap batteries for everyone! What if we manage to make a silica anode sodium iron battery 😮 I can’t wait to see what 2040 looks like if earth doesn’t experience Armageddon

Is there a place for both..like diesel and gasoline?

@bearcubdaycare

Жыл бұрын

An article that I read mentioned them even being mixed in the same battery pack, to tailor the pack to the right balance of characteristics...energy density, cost, performance in the cold, etc.... depending on the application.

@malcolmrickarby2313

Жыл бұрын

There’s no longer any place for petrol and diesel.🔥🌏

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

Sodium Ion will decrease demand for Lithium Ion. That may keep the two in balance for now. But I am holding off on home batteries as I do not think Lithium is the right choice. As Sodium-Ion becomes better and cheaper, I think it will be the most logical choice for mass production. Sodium supply is practically limitless.

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

​@@malcolmrickarby2313 Of course there is. It will take decades to replace all of it. But it is inevitable, even if it takes 50 years.

@malcolmrickarby2313

Жыл бұрын

@@SolAce-nw2hf unfortunately we have run out of time. The last couple of months should have made that very clear. Fires all over the northern hemisphere. Record temperatures on land and in the oceans. Sea ice not forming at the poles. We have had thirty years to transition smoothly but we have blown it. 🏝🔥

Sam, please stop mixing Mega-Watts and Mega-Watt hours. To quote the storage capacity of a battery in Mega-Watts is meaningless. Mega-Watts measure power, not energy. I enjoy your show. Don't stop.

problem with sodium batteries is the charging cycle. only half of that of lithium battery

@jonathanfields4ever

Жыл бұрын

Is that true? I’ve always heard they have more

@kongwee1978

Жыл бұрын

Sodium does have more, but for China ones are less as usual. @@jonathanfields4ever

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

That was the problem. This needed to be solved, as grid storage discharges and charges much more frequently. It is like comparing todays Lithium batteries with lithium batteries from 20 years ago. Also, there are many different chemistries of Sodium-Ion being developed (about 15 competitors, last I checked). They know that Lithium mining will never be able to keep up with demand if people all switch to EV's This would make their batteries super expensive and it will just run out or at least become very expensive to mine in low concentration ore.

@justcastro

Жыл бұрын

@@jonathanfields4ever yep. they have fewer charge cycles and energy density is also lower. but way way cheaper than lithium batteries. I think they are better for home use than EV.

@jonathanfields4ever

Жыл бұрын

@@justcastro If for home use, they’d have to have a high capacity to overcome the low cycle life, but I guess if they’re cheap then making them big would be no problem. I thought they had longer cycle life, but at the cost of far lower gravimetric energy density.

Nothing mentioned about the voltage for sodium ion cells or the energy capacity or the charging time compared to the established lithium type......without a comparison the specs are meaningless..........I suppose it's more pie in the sky.

@malcolmrickarby2313

Жыл бұрын

Not really relevant for stationary storage. It’s more about cost and safety.😊

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

Generally Sodium batteries will be able to charge and discharge faster and higher/lower in a wider range of temperatures. So this makes them better for just about anything that needs to work fast and hard in harsh conditions. Not sure about this particular version, but in stationary use you just scale out when more peak power or storage capacity is needed.

Error Error...!!! You make an error of 1000 000x The energy density of these battery is 150Wh per kg NOT 150MWh per kg... Wake up Viking ...!!! You are giving electricity a bad name...

@KianFloppa

3 ай бұрын

what

Yeeah just think of the benefits of sodium ion chemistry grid scale battery systems.. IF YOU GET IN A CRASH with your GRID SCALE BATTERY SYSTEM... 🤪 or you park your GRID SCALE SODIUM ION BATTERY SYSTEM... in your garage... or on a car carrier... THINK OF THE BENEFITS. I'm sure that's why they came up with sodium ion batteries... FOR GRID SCALE BATTERY SYSTEMS. Duh

Seriously... This is laughable! Sodium batteries may potentially find some good use in ESS. That is, if China can deliver what they claim. But not for high-performance EVs. Atomic # of Sodium 11 Atomic # of Lithium 3 Sodium cathode materials will have to be about 4 times heavier to hold the same amount of charge as Lithium. This is a fundamental fact one can not change thru technological advances. And this is why you should not sleep in your Chenistry classes.

If you don’t think sodium has much energy, just search for sodium thrown in water!

@robertn2951

Жыл бұрын

Get a chemistry degree. It's my advice to you.

CATL is rather the opposite of Toyota - Toyota is just all talk and vaporware. CATL take a more Missourian approach.

fyi. -- poly ann i on

Lithium is a salt so you are replacing a salt battery with a salt battery. Wow that was a leap. There are plenty of types of salt. When will we move to Crystal fusion? OH Yea: Zero point is not allowed.

pronounced 'ching dao.' 'q' is 'ch' sound in mandarin. .

Sodium-Ion batteries, 6th generation...and LiFePo⁴ will be finally outdated.

@SolAce-nw2hf

Жыл бұрын

I hope so. Having a car that just works in cold weather is a lot better. Also, it will do a lot less damage to the environment. Mining Lithium by itself is not very eco friendly.

1:30 The city's name QingDao is NOT pronounced "queen dao", but "ching dao"!

@fredtan1506

Жыл бұрын

We should revert to Wade-Giles; forget Pinyin, it is very confusing, diffiicult to learn.

@I_fuck_moms_of_CIA_trolls.

Жыл бұрын

@@fredtan1506 No. Anything is difficult to those who don't want to learn.

@LJ-jq8og

Жыл бұрын

Who cares ❗ how it is pronounced ... Get a LIFE 🤣

@I_fucked_moms_of_CIA_trolls.

Жыл бұрын

​​@@LJ-jq8og You should and will care! Goh pfoch urcelph, emogurl!

@wylu9717

Жыл бұрын

Pinyin in this case corrected the one of the. inconsistency of English pronunciations. Q is always pronounced as “ch” as in children, not “ch” in character. Pinyin would be a K if it was the “ch” as in character.

It is probably the best , kill's the competition , better than everything else and blablabla 🥱