If the price is right sodium would be a great solution for home battery storage where weight is less of an issue.

@jeanpaulchristian3282

11 ай бұрын

Try the Aluminum Sulfur batteries being developed by Avanti- Then there is new Room Temperature Sodium Sulfur batteries

@nntflow7058

11 ай бұрын

Battery for family house or buildings would be amazing.

@ccibinel

11 ай бұрын

CATL already has 200 wh/kg. This is only already better than most LFP marginally worse than 230 wh/lg of bleeding edge LFP. Nickle based cells achieve 260 wh/kg. Factor in lower costs, less structural defense (due to safety) and this makes a ton of sense even for vehicles (as long as volume is available). Running the numbers of same space and 300lb less weight than the pack for a 1000 mile Aptera could support a 500 mile sodium based Aptera; still more all anyone realistically needs.

@teax25

11 ай бұрын

For home yes. But what about transportation many countries are looking to replace fossil fuels with EVs. That going to be where the big money going to be.

@munnumkhalid

8 ай бұрын

Sodium for home and othermore denser lighter batteries for movable and portables. In a decade or so we will have battery similar to power bank power e bikes.

It isn't a shortage of lithium itself that's an issue, but the refining of it. Sodium is definitely worth pursuing. Sodium ion will be better for some use cases. Lithium ion better for others. Using both, where appropriate, spreads out needs & resources. A win.

@manuelmacalinao500

11 ай бұрын

Homes should definitely have these sodium batteries then lithium for cars and gadgets

@JT_771

11 ай бұрын

@@manuelmacalinao500 Exactly. Taking up more room matters little for home or utility storage, while the lower cost of sodium is a clear win.

@MurseTech64

11 ай бұрын

Same can be said with any other generative energy source (solar, oil, nuclear, coal, wind, geothermal, hydro)

@jarednovel

11 ай бұрын

The US has massive quantities of Soda ash (sodium carbonate) that could be used to make Sodium batteries yet the Chinese are leading the Sodium batteries race....The Chinese have even figured out how to make synthetic sodium salts since they do no have deposits of natural Soda ash

@kongwee1978

11 ай бұрын

@@MurseTech64 storage and generator are different.

Excellent, by using sodium batteries in for example stationary application where you don't need low weight or small size but you do want high storage capacity sodium can be a great replacement for lithium which saves lithium and associated materials for the other cases where you do need low weight and/or small size

@BikeOnRoadLondon

11 ай бұрын

Storage solution should focus on reuse the existing battery stock from EVs. Otherwise those batteries will go straight to landfill and cause significant damages to the environment and waste limited resources. No new storage batteries these days should be produced from earthed materials but should all be based on recycled stuff.

@fdk7014

11 ай бұрын

@@BikeOnRoadLondon no it's not worth it. Old batteries does not take charge properly and have huge losses. They will be recycled instead

@JackPouchet

11 ай бұрын

@@fdk7014 Not to mention they are far more susceptible to dendrites, mechanical deformation/strain, and ensuing thermal runaway. Best to properly recycle

@MrBiiila

11 ай бұрын

​@@BikeOnRoadLondon Lithium batteries recicleble with about 90% efficiency.

Loving these videos. Keep them coming. I'm finding the information more important than everything else I've been watching on KZread.

A Sodium battery that doesn't combust or explode when exposed would be a MONUMENTAL advancement, even if they lost some range over Lithium. I'd fully support it.

@masonfreeparty

11 ай бұрын

yes the safety factor is a very important issue,i dont want my house burning down with a lithium one..thats why i'd never buy one

@Findyification

9 ай бұрын

dont worry afaik the "lost" range is very miniscule

@selianenergy

9 ай бұрын

We have sodium batteries, you want to see!

@brandonprice1301

9 ай бұрын

@@masonfreeparty LFP batteries (another version of Lithium ion) are quite safe. Tesla is using more of them now.

@KaizorianEmpire

9 ай бұрын

@@masonfreeparty not just safety the simple fact it's very ambundant compared to lithium is great news, it can be used for power storage for homes etc, especially places where size isn't an issue.

I think Sodium ion batteries could be huge for green energy sector since storing the energy when sun dosnt shine and wind doesnt blow has been a huge issue.

@brodriguez11000

11 ай бұрын

Flow cells are the other.

@KbB-kz9qp

11 ай бұрын

Size and weight for substation grade sodium is not a problem.

@slender5738

20 күн бұрын

​@@brodriguez11000fuel cells are good for long range travel

It’s so great to see this come to fruition! I was writing about it in college a decade ago and everyone called it impossible/impractical

@vitalm9525

11 ай бұрын

Interesting. What did you come up with?

@helios_ja

11 ай бұрын

Did you watch the Munro podcast with Jordan

@Nemura12

11 ай бұрын

Great. I have a question for you professor. Were is the Electricity coming from? So delusional....

@mannyechaluce3814

11 ай бұрын

impossible, no, impractical yes

@4nlimited3dition_4n3d

11 ай бұрын

@@helios_ja No, what was in there? Anything important?

Potential fo Na-Ion batteries is much greater than $33 billion. For fixed storage they will quickly replace all versions of Li-Ion.

Li+ and Na+ ran head to head some years ago. Li+ won because it has a core advantage, energy density. Now, as Li gets more and more expensive, they brought Na back into the game, to hopefully control the price of Li.

@InXLsisDeo

11 ай бұрын

Li+ indeed has energy density, but a much lower lifetime. It is also "scarce" (in the sense: dependent on China, now seen as a threat to their hegemony by the US) and much more polluting.

@egaskrad

11 ай бұрын

@@InXLsisDeo stop using China as an excuse. Chile has the number 1 known Li reserves and Australia comes second. Argentina comes third and China comes only fourth. USA comes fifth closely followed by Canada. As for Li mining, Australia is the leading country follow by Chile and China. Australia is producing more than Chile and China in combine and Chile is double what China is producing right now. So China is only producing roughly 1/6 of all the Li right now in 2023. CATL and BYD are the two manufacturers producing Na+ batteries and both of them are Chinese companies in Shanghai. If Li is a strong export of China, who on earth dare to announce their Na+ batteries?

@danielvilliers612

11 ай бұрын

The thing is energy density has gone higher and higher for both and now Na+ can be used in the lower end segment of automotive markets. Should be around today's LFP chem in 2-3 years. But even then, it is much better for most use like stationary battery than Li+. Les costly and much less complex as it is safer. This will also free lithium production mostly to non stationary use and put less pressure on Li prices.

@egaskrad

11 ай бұрын

@@danielvilliers612 Na+ batteries are good probably for my backdoor solar panels. Cars and mobiles... I don't know. It really depends on how cheap they will go.

@InXLsisDeo

11 ай бұрын

@@danielvilliers612 Na+ seems good for large energy storage, like the ones used for electric chargers for cars, industries, or individual homes. The fact that it can last many more cycles and is safer and cheaper largely outweigh the energy density argument in these applications.

Since you need to keep lithium battery charge level within a narrow range -- like above 40% and below 80% -- to keep the battery from wearing out prematurely, its *effective* energy density is much lower than its advertised energy density. This means sodium batteries are competitive even on the feature that has made lithium batteries so desirable.

@neeljavia2965

11 ай бұрын

Not true. You can use 100% of lithium ion batteries when required like on road trips or during emergencies.

@sunspot42

11 ай бұрын

@@neeljavia2965 Yes but it rapidly degrades the battery. With sodium ion batteries that’s not an issue.

@brothermine2292

11 ай бұрын

@@neeljavia2965 : Yes, you can choose to trade away some lifetime of the (expensive to replace) lithium battery in order to drive further. But that doesn't mean my comment is wrong, because I was writing about the "effective" energy density and what you describe isn't best practice. Perhaps I should have called it the "practical" energy density.

@xlargetophat

11 ай бұрын

It's overblown. Nickel is king.

@aligenc659

11 ай бұрын

sodium ion batteries are slightly lower than lithium ion batteries, furthermore there will be silicone anode based batteries and solid state batteries

Battery technology is still in a state of flux so battery chemistry is likely to change and hopefully it will be in the direction of less environmental damaging materials to produce and more abundant, less costly alternatives. Iron-air batteries may become the best least expensive chemistry for grid scale energy storage to supplement solar and wind green energy.

@ogjk

11 ай бұрын

No disrespect but Thanks for repackaging everything just said in the video. What are you personal thoughts or additional expertise on the matter?

@smoothbraindetainer

11 ай бұрын

Every week there's a new "battery breakthrough" but they all lead to the same conclusion of not being dense enough, being too heavy, and/or being unrealistic to produce at scale. Perhaps take what CNBC says about batteries with a grain of sodium.

@anxiousearth680

11 ай бұрын

@@smoothbraindetainer It takes a lot of time for technology to mature. Good ol lithium here wasn't born yesterday either.

@ok.ok.5735

11 ай бұрын

No such thing as green energy it’s literally an oxymoron. Batteries can’t compete with gas they expect lithium batteries will deplete the resources after 5% of the cars on the road are electric. Sodium is everywhere lithium ion will be a dead technology soon there’s not enough resources to support it plus it’s very polluting. Green energy is not using any energy.

@wadexyz

11 ай бұрын

People are acting like battery tech is new. They've been busting their tail on building a better battery for AWHILE now (hint: pre-cell phones). That's why gains are so incremental.

It seems to me that sodium-ion batteries would be excellent for energy grid storage because their weight and bulk are really not an issue like they are with EVs. Plus, the batteries have longer life than lithium-ion, so they would need to be replaced less frequently, which would further cut costs. Plus, they do not have near the problems in cold weather that lithium-ion batteries do. I think that ultimately, they will be good in EVs, too, but by that time, we may have found something even better.

@fakename8856

3 ай бұрын

Building batteries to attempt to store grid energy is a complete waste of energy. Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to mine minerals, refine minerals, and use that to make batteries? 😂😂😂😂 IMPOSSIBLE. There is a 1902 Ford at the Henry Ford Museum that has a salt based battery, its range is 4 miles.

@trwent

3 ай бұрын

@@fakename8856 Oh, well, then we had better give up on it then. If they could not make it work 120+ years ago, then there is just NO WAY it will ever work today.

@user-ex7um5dd8i

3 ай бұрын

Our 20um/50um nacl salt powder has been in used in sodium-ion battery

@ZoeyEldritch

Ай бұрын

@@fakename8856 Grid storage is a thing already and a growing industry that is currently worth over $200 USD Billion, especially since we live in an increasingly volatile world for weather and other conditions. So the "impossible" I mean you are just literally factually incorrect. Grid excess is already stored in many territories, battery banks is already a thing and it is a industry that would have high interest in NA-Ion tech as it is expected to balloon to an industry worth of $500 USD Billion over the next decade. The car example you give is honestly pathetic, anyone can grab an outdated baby step of a technology, that means literally nothing in grand scheme as it is completely disconnected from context innovation and modern needs. Maybe actually KNOW what you are talking about next time instead of spewing right wing pro Oil barf.

@slender5738

20 күн бұрын

​@@fakename8856grid storage is hella important for extreme weather condition

Definitely right now, sodium has a best use case in phevs and smaller short range city EVs. Use them for all those vehicles to free up resources of Lithium for the other EVs.

@cggnow

11 ай бұрын

There seems to be enough room in the pool for both technologies, whether the Sodium batteries are used in EV's or not. They could certainly be used at the EV "pumps" as was described in the video. They could also be used in other areas where space and weight are not as much of a concern. For example, grid storage for renewable energy; or home chargers. It's also possible that the Sodium battery technology will improve to the point where it makes more sense for any EV. There are also several other battery technologies being researched that could become commercially viable soon. If I were an EV maker, I would treat batteries like gasoline...try your best to be compatible with whatever comes along.

@nomiguda

11 ай бұрын

I find the idea that we're using lithium batteries for products like the Tesla Powerwall just bizarre. The oft repeated dogma that energy is very difficult to store may be proven wrong yet with enough technological development. Interesting to watch the technology evolve.

@larryc1616

4 ай бұрын

And for energy storage

CATL is way ahead. Too bad you couldn’t have interviewed them!

@parkjoonkwang9259

11 ай бұрын

They can't accept the fact that China is ahead of the US in power cell technology.

We need all the different batteries to keep the price of minerals down. We can't have just one. I think we are going to see at least 3 new batteries per year for the next decade. Everyone working on battery technology is on notice, you don't have "years" to get into production anymore. By then there will be something better on the market.

@TK199999

11 ай бұрын

Yeah I expect Wall Street and the big hedge funds smelling profit in battery tech in general. So you are probably right and we will see major invest probably soon rather than later.

Everybody talks about batteries for electric cars. In the grand scheme of things, that's a pretty minor use case for batteries. Grid power storage is WAY bigger and more important. And in that case, the power to weight ratio is irrelevant because the batteries don't move.

@wadexyz

11 ай бұрын

In the US, 27% of greenhouse gas emissions come from vehicles. That's a minor use case?

@Mic_Glow

11 ай бұрын

Yes, also 150km range is enough for a lot of people, if you can charge overnight, everyday.

@devanarayans5131

11 ай бұрын

but there are better options for stationary storage

@marcobassini3576

Күн бұрын

​@@wadexyzThe EVs do not reduce CO2 emissions in any way. It is the renewable energy production that does. If tomorrow morning all the cars in the world are electric, the CO2 emissions will NOT change since the renewable energy production does not change and the additional load has to be produced from fossil fuels. If you can manage to increase the renewable energy production, then you can use that additional energy with ANY existing electrical devices, no need to create new ones (like EVs). Basically the electric cars are pointless.

Finally there's some actual focus on Sodium-ion batteries; took long enough!

Sodium ion battery commercialization is going to be moment of historical magnitude in the road to energy transition.

@jchristensen07

11 ай бұрын

Hard to get around the atomic weight difference for mobile applications. Great choice for stationary applications.

@user-tj4hu6en2w

3 ай бұрын

​@@jchristensen07The advantages of sodium ion electric batteries are many and I consider them the best Much cheaper Its price is approximately 10% of the lithium battery only Faster charging (almost two or three times faster than lithium) Withstands a variety of temperatures. Lithium batteries cannot withstand high heat or extreme cold! It includes the diversity of the presence of raw materials in different geographical ranges. It does not use cobalt, graphite, or lithium, and it is not flammable. As for cost, sodium batteries have the advantage of availability of materials and the possibility of improving their energy density, and their cost can be reduced Sodium batteries could take over a significant share of their lithium-ion counterparts, alleviating lithium supply issues and lowering overall prices for electric vehicle batteries.

Excellent documentary. Thank you. I've been using LiFePO4 batteries for several years. If Na batteries can be competitive, I'm very interested. But I was disappointed that you didn't touch on charging speed. One of the joys of LiFePO4 is that it can take about as much current as you can throw at it (for my marine interests). Li-Ion are a bit better, but also not as safe. But I don't know where Sodium fits into that.

@larryc1616

4 ай бұрын

And LFP last 4x more than lithium ion. I have LFP in my ecoflow solar generators

Something that isn't talked about it:- Sodium Ion can revolutionize EV market by the way of swappable batteries, and since it's cheap, stable and mass producable, it stands at an unparalleled advantage vis-a-vis Li-Ion batteries.

@freeculture

11 ай бұрын

I think the slightly reduced range but cheaper and safer is a good trade off for a daily commuter IMO. There is no need to swap at all especially since they appear to last longer

@minimumspec

11 ай бұрын

@@freeculture That's exactly what I'm saying. You don't need to have the highest capacity battery in your daily commuter. Whenever you run out of juice, and if you cant charge, just go to your nearest gas station and swap the battery. As simple as that.

@Sneakoz

6 ай бұрын

@@freeculture I think what he meant was a very impractical battery swap instead of recharging. Like cameras and drones have extra batteries if one runs out of charge. You take used one out and swap it and then recharge both at home. This is very impractical tho because even if you have a gas station providing battery swaps just charge instead🤦‍♀.

@VinodKulkarniOnPlus

4 ай бұрын

Eseentially we need battery bay design where multiple small size batteries can be inserted in car on demand at swapping center.

Li is only presently mined significantly in China, Australia, and Chili. There are major deposits in plenty of other areas. The Sultan Sea In California has enough to provide all the US’s demand.

Lithium ion batteries are still only just beginning to scale compared to what the world will be using. So if sodium batteries are now starting to scale, the competition will be wonderfully intense. I can't wait to see it.

@bolbiitp7850

7 ай бұрын

Any chance did we get this sodium idea from StrangerThings? Or was it a thing already before? It’s just so concerning why now all of a sudden

China: sees sodium ion batteries Tiamat/Faradion: I'm in danger

i suggest they look at sodium sulpher batteries that should triple the range. sulpher should connect with 2 sodium atoms for every sulpher atom

I like the idea of sodium batteries. And it's exactly as they say - in some applications volume and weight isn't an issue. Power back-up systems etc. I'm looking forward to have extremely cheap sodium-ion batteries. 🤩

12:50 - It might happen. You know, all the companies sell a cheaper but heavier lead-acid battery version of EV scooter for the students, teachers and elderly people priced considerably lower than the lithium-ion battery version. Perhaps Sodium-ion battery powered vehicles will take the same place soon...

One pundit suggests that the market for grid storage will soon be greater than the market for EV batteries. It is a no-brainer to use Na batteries or one of the other alternatives for static applications including the home battery market. Lit EVs have the Li.

While I may not see sodium ion batteries appearing in small consumer electronics anytime soon, I do see it appearing in larger applications, from scooters, electric cars, power plant battery arrays, to even ships and aircraft down the line. It's much less volatile, so it won't readily explode if damaged unlike Lion, sodium being much more commonly found around the world, and thus more readily available for large scale production with a lower environmental and health impact than mining lithium, and being of a much larger form factor anyway makes the lower energy density a non-issue.

man i would love to see a direct comparison between the 2 by size, weight, cost, and power

@sladeoriginal

11 ай бұрын

so its a worthless video

@Eduardo_Espinoza

11 ай бұрын

You can actually do it with math, but I'm too lazy 🦥

Very good work CNBC! That was well done and very informative!

Lower cost batteries for home use would be very nice. You could change the batteries during off-peak hours when the cost for electricity is less. Also, it might help even the load on the grid as EV charging stations proliferate.

Even IF sodium doesn't holds as much power, which for some people might be a downer, it being more stable and secure will be boon. I wouldn't mind some of the lithium batteries around me replaced with some stable sodium. Even if it means more regular recharging.

@caesarsalad1170

7 ай бұрын

It's also, 3x heavier lower energy efficiency, and has a lower lifespan.

@youseflatif796

6 ай бұрын

​@@caesarsalad1170Where's your source? I'm pretty sure sodium ion batteries have the same lifespan as lithium

i hope it can use desalinated water discharge for a sodium supply. i know the energy cost is high but the byproduct is already there, just ready to be recaptured.

@runeodin7237

11 ай бұрын

In a world rapidly running out of drinking water, this seems to be the obvious thing to do.

Siting one of these gigafactories in close proximity to a desalination plant would be a great boon. The Desal plant has a ready customer for its excess brine and the battery plant has a constant stream of salts. Who knows, they may be able to extract the lithium, manganese and cobalt ions from the waste brine, further decreasing the reliance on unethically sourced materials for standard lithium ion battery manufacturing.

Can the salt brine from sea water desalination plants be used as a source of sodium in batteries?

@youseflatif796

6 ай бұрын

I believe they can!

Lithium is almost as common as sodium. It is a metallic salt. The vast majority of which is found in underground brine deposits that can now be efficiently and cleanly accessed with DLE (direct lithium extraction) technologies today. Sodium is great for storage, and city runabouts that do not need long range.

@ipaporod

8 ай бұрын

But sodium is much more abundant, easier to extract/collect and cheaper to purify !

I'm waiting to see if the new CATL condensed battery.

I am wondering which sodium ion batteries you’ve been looking at for the claim that they have a higher cycle life then lithium ion batteries. As far as I know, at least for the batteries from CATL, they currently have a significantly lower cycle life than lithium ion batteries which is one of the main drawbacks.

@najibyarzerachic

11 ай бұрын

Link plz. The only commercially available Sodium ion batteries are from HiNa. They are saying their battery has charge cycle similar to LFP batteries. That means they have better charge cycle than traditional lithium ion (NCM, NCA, LCO and LMO).

@jchristensen07

11 ай бұрын

They also have ZERO tolerance for humidity as I understand it.

@kongwee1978

11 ай бұрын

@@najibyarzerachic If you are north atmosphere where you have winter session, your sodium may outperform lithium charging cycle. Sodium retain electricity better than LPF.

@dt8101

11 ай бұрын

CNBC got this one WRONG. Sodium battery has lower cycle of life.

@najibyarzerachic

10 ай бұрын

@@jchristensen07 no you understand it wongly. Stay up to date.

One of several challenges on sodium-ion batteries is the wide cell voltage range over state of charge. Over the discharge range, a sodium cell voltage starts at about 3.9v and at complete discharge is about 1.5v. This creates a challenge for producing efficient loading on battery. You can make a motor or an electronic power supply that will work over this wider voltage range but you cannot get away from the volt x amp = power relationship. This means the required current flow doubles in the lower half of sodium-ion battery discharge cycle. This in turn requires stronger load components, thicker wire and larger magnetic cores in motors and lower resistance switching devices and stronger power transformers in power supplies. This increases cost of the system over lithium-ion based systems. If you don't address the increased system peak load current and just replace the battery you take a big hit in overall system energy efficiency, or the equipment will only be usable over about 60-65% of the available total sodium-ion battery capacity. Just comparing cost of battery cells does not tell the whole story.

since most EV cars are moving to Lithium Phospate batteries today, sodium ion battery having comparable energy compacity and no material shortage/bottle necks seems to an excellent global alternative, and cheaper too.

Aren't there better options out there than just Sodium Ion? The only advantages, albeit big ones, it seems to have over Lithium is that it's cheaper (for manufacturers doesn't mean it will transfer to customers) and more environmentally friendly (which is a big win for everyone). So far Sodium Ion has less capacity, less powerful and slower to charge than Lithium Ion. Personally slower charge times don't bother me too much as device OEMs can balance that out with "quick charge" solutions, but if you want the equivalent capacity as your lithium Ion batteries you may need a larger and heavier Sodium Ion battery. Like the video says, Sodium Ion may not be the best for Electric vehicles because it is bigger and heavier and Sodium Ion may not work as well for mobile/portable electronic devices. It maybe more applicable to big stationary things like buildings and structures.

Love these docus, jeep em up! So nice to see deep dives on various technologies and industries:)

Should interview CATL as the market leader

@user-wf8oi5yp5j

Ай бұрын

So far there is only claim they had it, but no real productsseen

Sodium ion batteries would be perfect as house batteries Also good for laptops and phones

If it means less fires or lower fire risk I'm good. I say let's switch.

@bengsynthmusic

10 ай бұрын

Sodium simply loses shine when exposed to air so, less fire risk.

Since Na Ion battery has longer charging cycles than Li-Ion, the hybrid electric vehicle market could be one of the few segments where they could be a great fit because the range of PHEV doesn't solely rely on the batteries. Could potentially bring the cost of the PHEVs even further and much safer.

@PhoenixJusticeCom

10 ай бұрын

I too see this as a great battery for PHEVs as well.

@isaacamante4633

9 ай бұрын

Hybrids needs baterries that can charge and discharge faster than and pure eletric baterry car needs. Thats because the baterry is much smaller and needs to receive the same amount of energy during regen breaking than the eletric car. They also need to provide a lot of energy to acelerate despite the reduced size. And thas a good reason the baterries between this cars can't be easily adapted from another.

Where can I see a longer duration of there opening video of the packed highway at night?

When will sodium ion batteries be available for vehicles and other applications?

I would like to see a company that takes a technology like this, and focuses on making replacement EV and Hybrid batteries as opposed to trying to get new EV production contracts.

I think the future of EVs is likely solid state batteries. These seem extremely valuable pretty much everywhere else--especially with industrial/grid storage (maybe home batteries too) where batteries tend to not need a ton of energy density or can take up more room.

Airline, "Please, take out your batteries from your electrical devices" me, owning a T540: "Ok, hand me back my Ifixit kit, have to disassemble my laptop."

It's incredible. DW and CNBC content is rich and intelligent. I just like that sodium ion batteries are not dangerous and that it can run efficiently even at extreme temperature.

Per volume they aren't as energy dense as LFP. Cobalt and Nickel are still going to be needed for vehicles that need lots of range (and are very expensive). The benefits of sodium seem to be cold weather performance (good for where i live) and cost. Maybe we'll finally see cheaper/shorter range EVs. I could easily live with a car that has 100 miles of range--given there is a decent charging network. So you'll have cheap low range sodium ion/mid range-mid cost LFP/ and expensive high range NCM/NCA.

@johngalt97

11 ай бұрын

We are right around the corner on autonomous vehicles. An interim stage could be those vehicles delivering battery swaps to achieve any range needed.

@MrBiiila

11 ай бұрын

And it would be desirable swapping these type of batteries in the same car, so you can decide which one is the proper one for your actual needs.

@tooltalk

11 ай бұрын

>> Per volume they aren't as energy dense as LFP. Cobalt and Nickel are still going to be needed for vehicles that need lots of range (and are very expensive).

Wow. Haven't been more proud of Reliance an Indian. Good stuff.

@tilapiadave3234

11 ай бұрын

Proud of an IDIOT decision? The CATL sodium battery is VASTLY superior to what India WASTED money on

Could there possibly be more consideration given to how these compounds are mined and handled? It's kind of hard to believe that the battery is a more environmentally friendly option when gathering the materials to produce them are far worse for the environment than what we're currently doing. It would also be great if we could fix our grid and actually have a stable source of energy for recharging the newer tech. I love electrical vehicles and rechargeable storage from cleaner energy sources, but I don't want a repeat of the Recycling programs of the 70s and 80s where we were separating our "recyclables" only to learn there were no recycling plants to take them to, resulting in them all just being dumped exactly where they would have been in the first place. It doesn't matter how well made the roof is if there's no house to put it on.

It may be quite interesting for grid power storage

I think what may happen several years from now is a price war between LFP and Sodium Ion. LFP is capable to drop pricing. Due to little price difference, LFP will continue to be used mostly in EVs. Price difference then matters if used in larger scale or deployments, like batteries for the grid, industries or home where Sodium Ion will proliferate. Nickel cobalt based batteries for EVs will stagnate and reserved to high end vehicles and applications.

@bolbiitp7850

7 ай бұрын

Yeah but what about when LFP, sodium ion and lithium run out? From the looks of it, we’re gonna use so much of this that it’ll run out quickly due to dumb human demand for all electric everything. We cannot underestimate Mother Nature Oil is running out too, but as for LFP, Lithium and sodium ion, we have much less

@zodiacfml

7 ай бұрын

@@bolbiitp7850 sodium is salt, practically everywhere. lithium, which is considered a salt also dumb plenty. well if you say oil is running out, that is just one of the many reasons first world countries are going into electric.

Even though less expensive to make I bet they will still charge the customer the same or more for it because its "new"

I would go this way with with lift trucks, buses, trucks, and farming equipment as well as fixed power backups, recharge stations and off grid homes.

Seems like an ideal technology for plug in hybrids, which only require a relatively small capacity battery, especially as the price is substantially lower.

Thank China for developing LFP & Sodium Ion batteries and industrializing it.

As usual, Chinese companies have beat everyone else to the punch, CATL will begin production of sodium ion batteries in a production vehicle this year.

@ayungclas

11 ай бұрын

The Chinese companies don’t have the oil conglomerate working against them so are able to innovate more freely.

Building sized batteries to store excess electricity during low loads. Great, maybe desalination plants can put those hypersaline discharge brine from their Reverse Osmosis process to use making salt for batteries.

I kept waiting for the video to compare actual numbers and percentages between lithium vs sodium, but all it said was better or worse, but not by how much!

Can't wait to see what's next.

It’s inevitable- this technology is the future 👍🏼

Frequency mixed with vibration and the cooling process when making glass salt, allows power transfer and stops batteries blowing up and dendrites.

According to Elon Musk there is no current or expected future shortage of lithium. There is a report that in California around the Salton Sea there is one of the biggest untapped lithium deposits in the world.

Commodities traders that secured the supply of Lithium have been pushing for the adoption of Lithium because they thought no one would figure out that Sodium can be used to replace Lithium ,,,,Investors in the Lithium sectors that secured mining rights for Lithium have already lost a huge part of their investment

@neeljavia2965

11 ай бұрын

Lol

@Poxenium

11 ай бұрын

that is short sighted. If you see the big picture, you see we need a sheettonne of batteries, it doesn't matter which type it is, we need about 50x more production than we have today. All battery makers will make lots of money for the next 10 years at least.

@najibyarzerachic

11 ай бұрын

No. Lithium still has big demand. The pie is big enough to accommodate 4 or 5 types of storage technologies.

@bugguy1967

11 ай бұрын

This is so false. Sodium has not even been through testing phases yet. Lithium is currently the best solution. At best, sodium will be 30% less energy dense than LFP. Sso while they have their place, they are not a replacement for longer range vehicles.

@najibyarzerachic

11 ай бұрын

@@bugguy1967 which sodium ion has 30% less energy density than LFP? Be specific. The only company that has Sodium ion battery in mass production (GWh scale) is HiNa . Its battery has gravimetric energy density of 141 wh/kg , similar that of the LFP cells CATL provided to Tesla to be used in model 3 in 2020. The other three major companies starting scale production of sodium are CATL, BYD , Farasis and Faradion all have energy density around 160 Wh/ kg with CATL targetting 200 Wh/kg.

How many times can these battery cells cycled; charged and discharged before they are deemed useless and can you charge them below freezing temperatures? Current lithium ion cells can't be charged below freezing temperatures unless they are warmed up. All these are critical in determining cost of ownership and market adoption like power wall energy storage from wind and solar panels during peak times.

@adr2t

11 ай бұрын

Thats the operating teamptures are far ... Li is something like -15c Sodium is said to be -30c anything colder and you will need some way to warm up the batteries of course.

@tech29X

11 ай бұрын

@@adr2t I asked about charging temperature for sodium-ion battery. You seem to be confusing operating temperature vs charging temperature. You can't charge lithium ion cells below freezing temperatures unless you warm them up first (wasting time/energy to warm up) Is sodium-ion limited to the same restrictions, or accepts charge below freezing similar to lead-acid battery.

@adr2t

11 ай бұрын

@@tech29X Short answer, yes it should allow for it. Yes I understand, but for Sodium its the same thing vs Li that had two different ones.

@JackPouchet

11 ай бұрын

@@adr2t PBA/PBC (Prussian Blue Anode / Cathode) versions can be discharged and charged from -50C to +50C. Power capacity decreases at lower temps but at least the battery works and won't leave you or your application stranded. As the battery and power electronics warm with use the battery capacity increases. Effectively speaking if you have a telecom tower / Edge Compute site sitting at -20C and start discharging the batteries through the inverter and the room begins to warm. The battery started at about 80% of capacity but as the room comes up to even a 0C state the battery begins to be able to access 100% of the remaining capacity. Sort of like driving an ICE downhill and watching the miles-to-empty move upwards.

If batteries for EV’s were standardized dimensions and connections like in your TV remote where it doesn’t matter which brand you buy they just get swapped or recharged then gas stations would become SWAP STATIONS and range would no longer be an issue but the EV manufacturers are gouging too much on the batteries to allow such a free enterprise that would be fantastic for the consumers. When your BBQ tank is empty you swap it, lots of forklifts in warehouses have battery swap stations where you just drive up, it removes the drained battery and slides in a charged battery and in 2 minutes you can now drive for hours again. Biggest benefit is these SWAP BATTERIES can now be charged slow which extends the life of the battery which lowers the lifetime cost of the battery and reduces demand for new batteries and processing to make more batteries and eliminates massive electrical demands of fast chargers also allowing charging to take place only during reduced electrical price hours in areas that have time of use pricing.

@Simon-dm8zv

11 ай бұрын

Range is not an issue, even without swap stations.

Once sodium ion is mass produced, you can say bye bye to greed, I mean grid.

At just 140 Wh/kg, it's basically like going backwards in battery technology in terms of energy density

@profdc9501

11 ай бұрын

For some applications, like grid storage, energy density is less important than cost per Wh and number of recharge cycles. Lithium-based batteries are still too expensive for this, and other solutions, like sodium-sulfur batteries, require elevated temperatures and have corrosive chemicals. Perhaps this battery chemistry, or a flow battery, might be economical enough for practical grid storage.

@yudogcome5901

11 ай бұрын

Because of the high safety, the protection and cooling requirements are relatively low. When used on EVs, more cells can be installed in a limited space, so the power of the whole vehicle does not decrease, but it is safer

@runeodin7237

11 ай бұрын

For many applications, the lowered price is a much more important parameter than the (relatively small) lesser energy density. So which way the evolution goes is very much up to what parameters you care about.

@ivanberggreen9787

11 ай бұрын

@Jørgen You said it. As a an owner of an electric bicycle I would say that it all depends on what you use the the battery for. An electric bicycle or its faster cousin the pedelec (the one with the speed of a moped) can be very heavy as it is. - I read an interesting article years and years ago about how Israel and China were both trying to make batteries with a higher energy density, and back then still using lithium as a main component; I have heard nothing about it since those days.

This report makes it seems like its a close contest with a focus on two western companies. In reality, these two are less than a 1% of projected growth. In reality, China is pinoneering and dominanting this space.

As someone who suffers from coarse tremors as a result of a leaky lithium cellphone battery, I would love to see a sodium based battery come out long before I even consider buying an EV. Anyone brave enough to own an EV, knowing the fire hazards alone, let alone knowing about the health hazards, is a far braver person than I. lol

So the Chinese company CATL has already made it to market when everyone else are still on theoretical studies? Kudos

Lithium extraction is notorius for its effect on the environment that includes permanent poisoning of underground water

@kngharv

11 ай бұрын

I guess you didn't get the memo. We have long decided that poisoning of groundwater a small price we are willing to pay for the greater causes(e.g. hog farming / hydraulic fracking).

@jarednovel

11 ай бұрын

@@kngharv Its not a small price for people that depend on this water to stay alive. Trust me the best solutions that can be implemented to tackle the much hyped climate crisis are nearly free or quite cheap. The problem of humans especially the white and Western capitalists is using all crisis as an opportunity for profits and gaining power. For instance, in a poor country called Tanzania, there is a man that was able to power an entire neighbourhood using electricity generated using permanent magnets. Yet because the globalist oligarchy does not approve free stuff, people with these kind of ideas are often quickly silenced and no one ever gets to hear from them again....That is because they are seen as a threat to both profits and power...

@jarednovel

11 ай бұрын

@@ivar-the-terrible Oil is carbon....You are made up of carbon...Crude oil can be eaten by bacteria...Oil spills are not comparable to carcinogens and neurotoxins that can be found in chemicals that used in the extraction of Lithium. Oil spills cannot cause permanent water pollution because bacteria can eat the oil.....Why are you commenting on something you do not understand...Also any pollution is bad...There is no point cleaning the air then poisoning sources of drinking water...

I suspect given a few more years, Sodium-Ion will become comparable to all types lithium-Ion in most applications. Because right now battery tech. is still under developed and has a long way to go before reaching its potential with current technology. With US Universities leading the way with major research grants.

@wadexyz

11 ай бұрын

I disagree with this statement. There has been a ton of research put into battery tech for the past 40 years. They make gains, but they're incremental at this point. People/media want to see the big breakthrough.....it's unlikely to happen like that.

@deragoth4250

11 ай бұрын

Universities with research grants versus R&D of Chinese battery makers that have more practical experience and resources.... I am not too optimistic about the USA chances. Particularly since part of political landscape is anti EV and anti battery and may take actions to punish companies and institutions example Desantis with Disney and colleges he deemed politically inappropiate

@parkjoonkwang9259

11 ай бұрын

China at least 5 years ahead of U.S. in power battery technology. The U.S. has not even been able to mass produce 4680 batteries to date.

@InXLsisDeo

11 ай бұрын

@@deragoth4250 Indeed, the USA are losing pace with corrupt right wing politicians that are bribed by carbon energy industries and billionnaires that prefer to waste their money in vanity space projects rather than focusing on solving real problems. China is far more pragmatic at the moment and is trying to solve their own problems with technology that actually matters.

@Isawwhatyoudid

11 ай бұрын

@@deragoth4250 you hit the nail on the head.

This report on Sodium ion battery is a great opportunity for me to learn about them! Lithium-ion batteries are ubiquitous in all modern portable electronic devices such as mobile phones and laptops as well as for powering hybrid electric vehicles and other large-scale devices. Sodium-ion batteries (NIBs), which possess a similar cell configuration and working mechanism, have already been proven as ideal alternatives for large-scale energy storage systems. The advantage of sodium ion batteries are: First, sodium resources are abundantly distributed in the earth’s crust. Second, high-performance Sodium Ion Battery cathode materials can be fabricated by using solely inexpensive and noncritical transition metals such as manganese and iron, which further reduces the cost of the required raw materials. Recently, the unprecedented demand for lithium and other critical minerals has driven the cost of these primary raw materials to a historic high and thus triggered the commercialization of Sodium Batteries.

Sounds like it would work for little city cars, micro cars & even K-cars - basically any small city car (~2 seater) with a maximum range of ~120km It would certainly help bring down the price of entry level small EV's

China is so far ahead in EV, and batteries are not a joke anymore. GO CHINA 🇨🇳.

Sodium ion batteries are already being used in Chinese vehicles (cars) as standard… the future is now.

@weiliao7642

11 ай бұрын

No it’s not, they are now a popular option for grid energy storage facilities in China due to its low cost, and energy storage don’t care about its weight. For cars, even BYD hesitates to use them as the lithium battery price decreasing quickly recently and that makes sodium batteries less competitive. I don’t think sodium batteries have much potential in EV, it’s heavy and not that cheap as you would hope for.

Dunno why would you list no cobalt as a plus when LFP exist.

Wow..that will be so great.. thanks for sharing such great information

sodium is not PART of salt - sodium IS salt.

@kineticstar

11 ай бұрын

No, salt is a compound. One part sodium, one part chloride. (NaCl) Basic chemistry really.

@Pernection

11 ай бұрын

Wrong

@WG55

11 ай бұрын

It is annoying when I see food advertised as "sodium free" when they mean salt free. People get confused about what exactly sodium is.

@brothermine2292

11 ай бұрын

​@@WG55 : Foods containing potassium chloride are NOT salt-free, because it too is a salt. There are many kinds of salts. Foods can be sodium-free without being salt-free.

And China has long head start in Sodium batteries. Sodium is abundant. Requires much less processing that impacts the environment. And although it does not contain as much juice as Lithium batteries, it has a faster charge time. And because it has less juice, it is less likely to explode. All in all, the EV battery industry is aggressively moving towards Sodium batteries. And China will dominate that market. Well actually it dominates every type of battery market anyway. But China has a lot of research and patents in Sodium batteries, so it is much more prominent in this segment.

@JigilJigil

11 ай бұрын

China is going to be the biggest loser here, sodium ion batteries has no future, their life span and cycle time is their main issue, I assure you it's not going to be solved for a foreseeable future, lithium batteries will dominate the global battery market for a long time, sodium ion batteries will just have a small share in the global battery market, that's the reason they are not that many startups and R&D spending on sodium ion battery outside of China.

@JigilJigil

11 ай бұрын

"All in all, the EV battery industry is aggressively moving towards Sodium batteries." LOL Actually EV battery industry is doing the exact opposite, not investing and not moving towards sodium batteries, they are heavilly investing on lithium batteries, in the realm of 100s of billions of dollars.

Rather than only asking how can we electrify a gas station in order to charge an ev, I think you may want to look at how people are charging their ev now. (Look at the customer demand side not only the service supply side). As opposed to a driver having to make an extra stop at a station, it seems preferable to plug in to the grid at the driver’s intended destination and convenient parking place. That way the time spent parked is not seen as a burdensome “wait-time”. This way there’s no need for costly, inefficient multiple batteries per vehicle. And the customer can get a better price for using off-peak electricity.

Finally. Can’t stop progress.

Yes the fires are claiming to many lives with lithium battery fires

@najibyarzerachic

11 ай бұрын

In New york city alone there have been over 400 fires caused by lithium ion batteries after the pandemic. There have been over a dozen people killed this year alone. Lithium ion battery fires (NCM, LCO & NCMA chemisteries to be specofic) are a reality . We cany deny it. I recentky changed my e bike battery from NCM to LFP for this very reason even though the battery was still working fine after a use of three years.

This is why NIO is an amazing EV maker, you can easily swap out a more dense, safe & efficient battery as the tech gets better. Can TESLA do this?... The answer is NO.

@laimejannister5627

11 ай бұрын

just mentioning it'd be easier to recycle old batteries as well

combining sodium-ion with battery-swapping technology. we can alleviate the energy density problems up to an extent. As the risk would be minimal compared to the existing li-ion, we can build mobile battery packs. with the addition of sensors, the battery pack should show the remaining battery leftover, so that, when swapping batteries, the consumer should pay accordingly to the charge left on the old battery.

Very nice, hope this takes off!

Not a chance... Sodium ion batteries do not have as much energy density as lithium... Their only advantage though is that they charge faster.

@kineticstar

11 ай бұрын

Seeing as more experimentation and investment has poured in. It will be a matter of time before some discoveries are made. It was the same for lithium in its' initial use.

@theguy8412

11 ай бұрын

BYD is already mass producing it and has cars using it

@hmbro3236

11 ай бұрын

Seeing as though they have at least as much energy density as Lithium iron phosphate, which are being used in several models of Tesla's cars, and most Chinese cars, I would say you are flat out wrong in this statement

@laimejannister5627

11 ай бұрын

you assume batteries are only used for mobile devices or vehicles where weight matters. and this assumption is wrong.

@adr2t

11 ай бұрын

And cheaper, can be made anywhere, safer, and offer more methods to scale production ... yea totally lol. You are dead wrong my dude.

Question: Is Sodium the used name in the USA or also elsewhere. In the Netherlands, the name Natrium is used. While soda (cleaning product) is Sodium carbonate.

With inductive charging built into highways we wouldn't actually need very big batteries in our cars. A 50 mile battery is plenty if you only make trips around town and if you go longer distances you charge while driving along the highway.

You don't need to beat L Ion. You only need to beat Lead Acid. That's 65% of the market. You also have to be near the price of Lead Acid.

Design cars with an option of having more batteries if needed. Lots of people have a range anxiety and find out later thay don't need all this extra weight in most of their daily rides. But for the biger trip it would be handy having some extra batteries to take with you. It could bring the cost of an verhicle down.

ALTHOUGH RECENT BREAKTHROUGHS HAVE MAINTAINED THAT ENERGY DENSITY OF SODIUM ION BATTERIES CAN BE IMPROVED SIGNIFICANTLY, EVEN IF WE DO NOT MANAGE TO INCREASE ENERGY DENSITY OF SODIUM ION BATTERIES LETS NOT FORGET THE BATTERY STORAGE INDUSTRY IS NOT RESTRICTED TO ELECTRONICS AND CONSUMER DURABLES. THERE ARE NUMEROUS USE CASES WHERE COST OUTWEIGHS ENERGY DENSITY & NOT TO FORGET THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT.

How about the cost? What cost advantage does it have over other battery technologies considering that it lags the competition in terms of density.

Sodium Ion batteries still have lots of room for refinement, and CATL is already reporting energy density on parity with Lithium @ ~220kw/kg. Lithium may only hold an advantage for a short while, and that advantage is mostly its existing scale.

@tooltalk

11 ай бұрын

>> ... CATL is already reporting energy density on parity with Lithium @ ~220kw/kg

@chow-chihuang4903

2 ай бұрын

Wh/kg, though kWh/kg would be amazing!