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@kenhiett5266

Ай бұрын

It's incredibly poor taste to invite William on your show for a long form conversation, and then attack him on a singular position in the title. I'm the opposite of a William Craig apologist, but the way you often hold over on people morally (passive aggressively) is gross. *edit - almost 20 minutes in before you announce the reason you invited William back on the show. The title admittedly reads very differently in that full context. My mistake.

@merbst

Ай бұрын

​@@kenhiett5266I agree with you, @CosmicSkeptic should change the title quickly.

@klaxoncow

Ай бұрын

Dawkins is right. This man is moral monster.

@merbst

Ай бұрын

​@@klaxoncowyes I agree with you too. WLC has no right to call himself a philosopher, because he definitely doesn't love knowledge or seek its acquisition.

@simon5007

Ай бұрын

@@kenhiett5266 Outside of a bit of introduction at the start, it was a singular topic video though. This is 1 hour of William Lane Craig defending the Canaanite Slaughter. Did you not watch the video?

I am from Afghanistan. I remember Taliban when beheading civilians say if they are guilty it is just to kill them, If they are innocent, they should not be worried as they will go to heaven. That is exactly religion can be evil.

@warptens5652

Ай бұрын

yeah but you understand it's different because craig has the real holy book from the real god

@andreasvox8068

Ай бұрын

@@warptens5652 Isn't it great we have differnet gods? My, we wouldn't get any killing done at all if it weren't so.

@Mr.Goodkat

Ай бұрын

@@andreasvox8068 We certainly would, people kill each other over land, money, power, mere disagreements which escalate, politics etc, more often than not God has nothing to do with it and the times when he does it's just them invoking him as justification, if they were atheist, they'd find something else to justify it.

@Stevewilldoit96

Ай бұрын

>this is why religion is evil Well, Islam is evil and was spread by Prophet Muhammad through brutal conquests, while Jesus’ message was spread through the Roman Empire without violence since his word spoke to the masses. If you compare the life of Muhammad to the life and teachings of Jesus this is clear to see. Through actual research and reading both holy texts you can see that Allah is like the strawman that Atheists make the Judeo-Christian God out to be. Also read about Stalin, Mao, the Mongols, current behaviour of the Chinese government, etc. There are endless examples of atheist regimes acting brutally. In a hypothetical universe where everyone followed the teachings of Jesus perfectly you would have absolute tranquility on earth. Read “the sermon on the mount” moral perfection 2000 years ago when it was normal in Roman Empire for people to have literal slaves and the state to enact genocides like at Carthage.

@daniellomeli

Ай бұрын

😂

When the ad break came in with “do you like reading?” At first I thought he was talking to William Lane Craig in a condescending way lol.

@mad-official

Ай бұрын

😂

@justinb9356

Ай бұрын

Same, lol

@SamoaVsEverybody814

Ай бұрын

Facts cus I was doing dishes n just listening not watching at that part 😂

@Lucas1Apple12

Ай бұрын

Same here hahaha, it was so abrupt I laughed out loud and had to stop doing dishes and look at the screen hahaha

@SamoaVsEverybody814

Ай бұрын

@@Lucas1Apple12 That's wild lmaoo

Really impressed with Alex for keeping a straight face when he hears the whole well kids go to heaven argument

@simonameier7779

15 күн бұрын

The pro life or pro abortion theories when you read between the lines. Take a pick...Bunch of hypocrites 😢

@simonameier7779

15 күн бұрын

This guy philosophy makes me 🤢 VOMIT 😢 !!! Now... my cat was there, and israelites killed it... my dog escaped, then came back to eat the dead babies. Hey ! Lot a burials hard work for them ... poor israelites... overall, the whole thing is a bunch of LIES, Historically speaking ... Well.. it's a horrible bedtime story.

Again thank you Alex for bringing Craig in your show.. really appreciate you and learn a lot from you as well... All love from India.😊

His argument seems to be the highly rationalized version of "God said so." Which will not help in convincing anyone who is not already a believer.

@kimehragovindasamy9897

Ай бұрын

I thought the same thing. It’s literally “because I said so”. I generally think it’s a bad thing to blindly follow the instructions of any figure of authority without exercising our own best judgment.

@onisimpetrescu4816

Ай бұрын

Yes. But that is not the point. The point is that because God is good the order he gave to israelites is moraly good , so there is not discrepancy between God being all loving and this comand of killing babies. That is his point

@someguy2249

Ай бұрын

​@@onisimpetrescu4816 how would you know if the entity who gave that command in the Bible is in fact God? Maybe God has morally sufficient reasons to allow the evil being in the old testament to convince you that he is God.

@someguy2249

Ай бұрын

​@@onisimpetrescu4816 how would you know if the entity who gave that command in the Bible is in fact God? Maybe God has morally sufficient reasons to allow the evil being in the old testament to convince you that he is God.

@mads2357

Ай бұрын

@@onisimpetrescu4816the only way for that to be the case that I can think of is to define good as what god wants. If you do that I reject your concept of it. Good could just as well be defined as anything satan wants but I doubt defining it that way would convince many christians that Satan is all good.

*"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"* ― Voltaire

@OhManTFE

Ай бұрын

What we just watched was the clearest example of Voltaire's quote in action. Anything - literally anything - can be justified with divine command theory. That fact alone should make you incredibly wary of adopting it as your moral foundation.

@user-hg2wn9dv6z

Ай бұрын

Good quote ,,but doesn't make your assumptions right.

@ckay_real2765

Ай бұрын

It’s not an absurdity it’s actually perfectly consistent

@OhManTFE

Ай бұрын

@@ckay_real2765 Can't spell immortal without immoral.

@eduarddasilva6027

Ай бұрын

Craig is a shame to mankind

Did he seriously said it was a blessing for the kids to be killed because they went immediately to heaven? Oh wow...

@ghanson1717

Ай бұрын

Wow. I don't know where WLC gets this stuff from. I may not be a bible scholar, but I thought there were prerequisites for getting into heaven. The Catholic church didn't think innocent babies went to heaven. That's why they invented Limbo.

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

He did specify "in my theology". In the scriptures themselves about the commanded genocide of the other canaanites, no where in that section does God say: "don't worry about the child murder, I'm taking those kids to my paradise." I not certain if at the time of the writing of these stories the theology of humans going to paradise with god was a part of Judaism.

@user-nz8uy1zm3z

Ай бұрын

@@ghanson1717 Well, the Catholic church is wrong. There are several passages from David and Moses that give support the idea that babies are gathered up by God when they die.

@user-nz8uy1zm3z

Ай бұрын

@@kyleepratt The is absolutely evidence from the Bible that children go to heaven. Go to "Got Questions" and start looking up some of them.

@filipeazevedo6165

Ай бұрын

@@ghanson1717 If you don´t believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of your sins, you do not believe in his resurrection you go to hell. Since infants can't make such a decision in Protestantism they go to hell. In the catholic church to Limbo. A strange sense of morality.

In my 29 years on this earth I've never about-faced so quickly as after hearing William Lane Craig defend child murder. This man has logically defended evil and uses his theology as defense. I have so many objections it's difficult to even start to respond. I can count 4 off the top of my head; practical, authoritarian, tautological, moral.. If I met such a person that believes what he does, I would be hard pressed to not be disgusted. (Edit: You actually got him to bite the bullet on psychosis induced school shooting, I don't know how this man sleeps at night)

@thepalegalilean

Ай бұрын

*In my 29 years on this earth I've never about-faced so quickly as after hearing William Lane Craig defend child murder.* So what? Child murder has been defended all the time in living memory and even today in Modernity. There are cRiMeS and then there are crimes. You most likely have no problem the former, despite that in both latter and former cases, child murder takes place. *This man has logically defended evil and uses his theology as defense.* There's a lot of things you would probably defend that would contain in them what you consider to be evil. Be consistent. *If I met such a person that believes what he does, I would be hard pressed to not be disgusted.* Likewise.

@xxdragnxx1

Ай бұрын

@@thepalegalilean you just made a bunch of assumptions about me and I have no idea what you're talking about. Go argue with someone else online

@thepalegalilean

Ай бұрын

@@xxdragnxx1 *you just made a bunch of assumptions about me and I have no idea what you're talking about. Go argue with someone else online* That is correct. Unfortunately, I am forced to make assumptions about you like you have to do the same with me. That's exactly why I use terms like 'most likely' and 'would probably'. I'm aware you may very well disagree with the propositions above. But I did so because I'm trying to present you on a general basis. It's up to you to make these generalizations more catered to your actual positions, should you care to do so.

@xxdragnxx1

Ай бұрын

@@thepalegalilean If you felt like my first comment on this video was a personal attack on you or made assumptions about you, please just move to Canada.

@thepalegalilean

Ай бұрын

@@xxdragnxx1 I didn't think that at all.

38:18 "It was actually a tremendous blessing to these children for them to be killed..." "Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself." (Napoleon)

@Shehatescash

Ай бұрын

I disagree with DCT but you are clearly not able to comprehend it. God would have gave the children an infinite good and saved them from falling. In what sense is that not a blessing? This does not say that people can kill children because they will go to heaven. A person killing a child does not confer good to the child. God is the one who confers the good, he gives you infinity in return for finite suffering. All the person does is confer bad, the person gives suffering and gives no good

@Soonzuh

Ай бұрын

@@Shehatescash Naturally I understand that what you write is the justification. If, however, the Abrahamic god is nothing but a fairy tale, and there is no justification to believe otherwise, then the act caused by such a belief is not a "blessing" for the killed children.

@vanbeet5105

Ай бұрын

What if a person attacks and murders innocents then claims that God told him to do it, does it become justified? Because that is exactly the case with the Caananites: the Israelites commited war crimes against innocents, then wrote in their books that God told them to do it. You cant prove that God didnt tell them to do it, just like you cant prove that he did​@Shehatescash

@Shehatescash

Ай бұрын

@@Soonzuh First I wanna say try not to lump “abrahamic gods” into 1. But it looks like we both agree that IF god does exist, then he’s justified in permitting the death of a child, and so this “biblical slaughter” does nothing to undermine the goodness of The Christian god if he exist. Now it looks like there’s just a question of whether or not he does exist, which isn’t the topic here. Alex and Craig have argued that before tho and I do believe there is reason to think he exist. I do want to point out that if god doesn’t exist, then that means god didn’t even command the Jews to slaughter cannan, and so the “biblical slaughter command” objection wouldn’t even work. That’s why when raising the slaughter objection you have to presuppose god exist and then argue that this part of the Bible contradicts what the rest Bible says about god. This slaughter objection is like an argument from within Christian belief

@eashanrijhwani3075

Ай бұрын

The level of delusion is just unbelievable

This is 100% what hitchens ment when he said that with god all things are permissible

@sparrow3026

Ай бұрын

Well hitchens is wrong, obviously, and he’s been destroyed in every debate against John Lennox about this.

@DadamWrites

Ай бұрын

Fundie: What's your basis for *morality* filthy atheist! Atheist: Secular humanism - wellbeing - survive, thrive - etc. Fundie: That's subjective! Atheist: What's yours? Fundie: gawd said so! Atheist: *unimpressed*

@GrammeStudio

Ай бұрын

​@@sparrow3026 classic apologetics' logic. 😂😂"it's true because i said so". funny how you folks love claiming yourselves to be objective when your arguments really boil down to "because I (or god) says so". just a bunch of subjectivist pretending to be objectivist accusing others of subjectivity. hypocrites 🙄🙄

@danielflynn2572

Ай бұрын

"As it was written"

@mateozhou

Ай бұрын

@@GrammeStudio they are the epitome of hypocrisy

Craig says actions that would be considered immoral are moral because a moral authority's command makes it so. His Command Morality is relativism by another name. Hearing it I recalled learning that others making the same claim at Nuremburg. This is a recurring story through history from ISIS in our time, through the inquisition, to ancient human sacrifice.

@twitch.101

17 күн бұрын

Putting aside our personal beliefs for a moment to explore your point, you are comparing a theoretically perfect God, to wholly imperfect humans who cannot make moral laws. Because the laws of the perfect God are the moral standard in this argument, anything done outside of his moral standard is therefore below standard, and not justifiable. So this is a bit of a false analogy because Hitler and Al-Quarashi (yes I had to look up the leader of ISIS lol) are imperfect humans who, inside Christianity, cannot make their own moral laws, and therefore must follow God’s moral laws, or their works will be sin. Whether or not YOU believe God is perfect is a different part of the discussion.

@waynesulak1488

16 күн бұрын

@@twitch.101 I can understand the position that God is a special case, but my point is that if there is objective moral good and bad that would mean an all good God would conform and actually embody that standard. If there are exceptions then the standard is relative and not objective.

@AndyRhodes1

11 күн бұрын

@waynesulak1488 Great points!

@jploeg8862

10 күн бұрын

ISIS was a tool of CIA, Mossad and Saudi intelligence. Which is why they disappeared when Trump was president and reappeared under Biden...

@hrvad

Күн бұрын

How are you able to completely ignore the role of the child burning Caananites in this equation? It really is the elephant in the room, and you completely ignore it. Seems, I dunno, dishonest? And how would your moral "superiority" have worked back in the 1940s Germany? Would you have stayed your hand against the Nazis, because you put on the blinders and couldn't take your eyes off of the collateral damage that, unfortunate as it was, helped us defeat the Nazis?

38:17 is one of the most unhinged thing I've ever heard in my entire life

@kyleepratt

Ай бұрын

Unhinged is a great descriptor for this

@AmayzinOne

Ай бұрын

It always makes me chuckle hearing atheists or agnostics say something is unhinged or evil. So inconsistent and hypocritical.

@rondovk

Ай бұрын

@@AmayzinOne actually I'm a jihadist

@AmayzinOne

Ай бұрын

@@rondovk It wouldn’t be unhinged for you then.

@IndianArma

Ай бұрын

​@@AmayzinOneso, do tell me what sort of a person can qualify or consider this argument as unhinged ? A hindu? No, because they are idolaters, a christian? You'd say no because thats against their beliefs. A jew maybe? But then they wouldnt be jewish just like the christian, a buddhist perhaps? But they have their own false prophet so must be rejected. So conclusion: genocide is great.

“It wasn’t genocide. It was just that the land was to be cleansed.” 🙃

@dodumichalcevski

Ай бұрын

Perfect logic 😂

@petervancaeseele9832

Ай бұрын

WLC is the master of word games.

@JamieByrne1977

Ай бұрын

yes, ''ethnic cleansing'', as genocide has been called

@Jaymastia

Ай бұрын

You can't corner him. He dictates the flow .

@CoachAlexGentry

Ай бұрын

From the river to the sea

The “they were sacrificing their children, so their children needed to be slaughtered” argument.

@lechevalier-ns2pt

Ай бұрын

"We need to save those children from being potentially sacrificed by killing all of them!" I’m starting to believe their actual problem isn’t the "kids being killed" part but the "in the name of another god" part.

@durarara911

Ай бұрын

I literally laughed out loud when he used child sacrifice as evidence of immorality.

@durarara911

Ай бұрын

@@leslieviljoen whoops edited it

@Tom-iz5ps

Ай бұрын

Funny cuz doesn’t the Christian god sacrifice his son too 😂

@unduloid

Ай бұрын

@@Tom-iz5ps That son came back to life later, so not really...

Fantastic interview!

Fantastic job here Alex

This video is a great example of how theism can totally pervert one's morality. Leave it to the arbiters of morality - the moral monopoly - the ones who accuse nonbelievers of borrowing from their worldview, to claim that the real victims of a genocide are the ones who committed the genocide. Sometimes the monsters don't come yelling and snarling. Sometimes they shake your hand and give you a wide smile.

@stefanheinzmann7319

Ай бұрын

Absolutely! I am grateful for this demonstration of theist morality taken to its logical conclusion, by a renowned apologist, no less! This has excellent educational value! It ought to be discussed in classrooms. WLC did the world a favor by presenting himself as an excellent bad example for morality. Who can believe that religion is a positive force in the world after hearing this? Who can still defend "objective morality"?

@linusloth4145

Ай бұрын

Do you think the Allies were justified in killing hundreds of thousands of civilians by firebombing German and Japanese cities including women and children non-combatants in it?

@samazwe

Ай бұрын

He seriously needs to watch your video about the time travelling pastor

@110j

Ай бұрын

Feels like an atheist crossover seeing you here

@connorpeterman5024

Ай бұрын

Long time no see!

At first I thought that Dawkins was being a bit hyperbolic, but after listening to William Lane Craig express his view for an hour I have to admit that Dawkins is right. William Lane Craig is an extremely disturbing man.

@onedaya_martian1238

Ай бұрын

1000% agree. WLC is bereft of sanity.

@amyc.513

Ай бұрын

Yes

@cameronwilliams889

Ай бұрын

Psychotic.

@kenopsiamusic

Ай бұрын

the scariest part is his mode of thinking isnt fringe. its mainstream christianity.

@SamoaVsEverybody814

Ай бұрын

​@@kenopsiamusic And they're using the wholesale Slaughter of the Canaanites to justify Israeli violence against the Palestinians

I listened to this on the podcast channel. This is your best episode yet Alex. Well done.

Exceptional Moderating Alex! You extracted the details of the discussion and different perspectives efficiently and with grace and compassion to Craig and his views. It really allowed for the discussion and the depth of the logic behind all sides arguments to develop quickly and deeply. Extremely mature and professional of you.

The thumbnail with him smiling next to the word “slaughter” is killing me 😂

@ArekDod

Ай бұрын

Alex has so many humorous thoughts that he does 😂

@oldol12

Ай бұрын

Then why are you participating in modern day slavery, bying cheap clothings, laughing all day, while people somewhere else have to work for pennies to make your cheap stuff? Never thought about that? And yes, literally children die by producing make up.

@Illycrium

Ай бұрын

You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter".

@lucaslovesyouiii

Ай бұрын

Lovely touch wasn’t it

@Jollyswagman7

Ай бұрын

You are easily amused.

Good grief, Craig’s defense of divine genocide is as convoluted as it is grotesque.

@GameTimeWhy

Ай бұрын

But God is good so good is whatever God says. I hope the people defending wlc are bots or trolls but i doubt it. Just a bunch of monsters.

@Marqui91

Ай бұрын

@@GameTimeWhy I asked a close member of my family if they.would have done what Abraham nearly did. To his son and they could not give me an answer... So yeah, probably real people

@jacksonelmore6227

Ай бұрын

It’s convoluted and grotesque, because you demanded a logical explanation of something alogical by Nature, if you can’t transcend your egoistic urge to demand a logical explanation, you’ll criticize naive theists forever, accept that Unconditional Love, the stuff of Being, and WHO “God” IS, transcends petty “logic” I will turn my other cheek, and allow you to reincarnate as an atheist as many times as you want, because I love you, but if you get bored of that, I Am Who I Am

@LeoVital

Ай бұрын

@@jacksonelmore6227 Blah blah blah. Mystical word salad to relativize genocide. Won't deceive anyone with more than 2 neurons, mate.

@crabb9966

Ай бұрын

​@@GameTimeWhywhat is even a monster? God ends the lives of children every day. Ultimately it boils down to good and evil

I am familiar with both positions but listened to the discussion primarily because I find myself immensely interested in the psychology of belief and how that might play out in a person’s life. I am particularly interested in the field of self-deception due to how it frequently emerges at various levels of human interaction, both in regards to personal tendencies, relationships and exchanges that only, if at all, indirectly involve me. Self deception undoubtedly runs very deep, and it's usually if not always, in part at least an inside job, which none of us are truly immune to, whether Christian, Athiest, whomever.

@CosmicSkeptic this was a great interview, and I think your gentle approach made for a far more powerful critique as it allowed Dr Craig to feel free to unpack a full defence of his position. I'd like to use several comments from Dr Craig in this video in an upcoming video where I discuss the implications of a divine command theory (and whether or not it really helps his treatment of the conquest of Canaan). It would just be a few minutes of quotes in total. Is that alright with you?

I think the old man is not even listening to what he is saying, "they didn't have to die" they just had to leave all of their families and belongings and lands and flee because there are some murderers commanded by a fake "god" are coming to exterminate them. What the hell is this guy even thinking

@theinvestingpalace4710

Ай бұрын

lol, exactly

@jshud3

Ай бұрын

yeah, after 400 years of being there!? what the crap... whats the waiting about

@YoungJustice1997

Ай бұрын

atheist: "Why did God kill the raping, pedophilic, beastiality practicing, human torturing, human sacrificing, violent community after 400 years, they were good people God is such a meanie"...also atheist, "i believe in the death penalty, if kills someone"

@QuintarFarenor

Ай бұрын

plus, it's all good and moral because the (imaginary) arbiter of goodness and morality commands it. This is undefendable BS and grotesque as others have pointed out and it drives me mad that Alex isn't as obviously disgusted at this explanation as I am. Some seemingly just have clearer heads.

@lesliewells-ig5dl

Ай бұрын

@@QuintarFarenor I'm sure Alex is disgusted. He has to remain professional.

“Driving a people out of their nation on pain of death isn’t genocide no one had to be killed” -low bar bill on why genocide isn’t actually genocide 😂

@RichardCThurston

Ай бұрын

The Gaza explanation.

@dizehjvegnomis

Ай бұрын

yeah: "it was only ethnic cleansing, let's not be rash"

@lampad4549

Ай бұрын

​@@RichardCThurstonwhats happening in gaza now isnt genocide it isnt to drive people out for pain of death

@lampad4549

Ай бұрын

​@@dizehjvegnomiswhat even is ethnic cleansing and what is difference between that and genocide?

@simon5007

Ай бұрын

@@lampad4549 Ethnic cleansing is the destruction of a people, using any means. This could be killing, displacement, interbreeding (the non-consensual form that KZread refused to let me post), sterilization etc. Genocide is a specific type of ethnic cleansing, that means that one of the predominant means of achieving it is through systematic killing of the unwanted ethnicity. What is described here is pretty much exact definition of genocide, although WLC argues that the Canaanites were also given the option of ethnic cleansing through displacement.

There is so much evil in the world caused by mindsets like this. It isn’t just religion, across time a lot of people do and have clearly justified their horrific actions by basing it on a god, a leader, a country. Removing their own responsibility and ability to decide what is moral by placing it on something they have made unquestionable. I want to believe humans are inherently good but it’s hard to believe that when watching this, when so little is what it takes to think child murder is acceptable.

@reijishian2593

Ай бұрын

If modern Christianity properly understood the context of the Israel-Canaanite conflict, no one would ever describe the motivating factors in this conflict as "so little."

@user-nz8uy1zm3z

Ай бұрын

Glad you're thinking about these things in a holistic way, and not just a "bash Christians" way. Honestly a rare trait amongst today's atheists. If a Christian is removing their own responsibility to decide what is moral, then they aren't following the Bible in the best way, because that isn't what our Lord asks of us. I hope that we can both observe this world and come to clear conclusion that human beings are not inherently good. War, death, and chaos are the baseline of human existence, the products of sin. Craig makes his claims a little more bombastically then they should be, but from I've listened to in this video, he is still correct from the biblical perspective.

@user-nz8uy1zm3z

26 күн бұрын

@@christopherpearson2116 I'm not sure what you mean. But I will try to explain what I think you're missing. Sin came into our reality through the manipulation of the devil and the sin of Eve and Adam. Sin originated because Adam and Eve gave into the temptation of satan to try and be like God, and so they disobeyed Him, bringing sin into God's new and perfect creation for the first time. That is how sin came into our world. Now, we know a little less about how satan and his demons became corrupted, but Ezekiel 28 sheds some light on the fall of lucifer. Lucifer, in his pride, wanted to be greater then God, this was a sin, and so he was cast out of the presence of God, since God cannot abide with sin (this is the same way as how God turned His face away from Christ when He took on the sins of the world on the cross). In this way, satan is a corrupted supernatural being residing in our natural world. Satan's sin originated from his pride. He was the greatest of God's angels, He had all that a created being could want, yet he used his free will to sin and thus could not continue to abide with the Lord. You're right, sin has no place in Heaven, which is why satan and his armies were cast out by the Father. End of. And yes, the free will of man is responsible for sin and death in our world.

@christopherpearson2116

26 күн бұрын

@@user-nz8uy1zm3z The free will of just... two 'men' yes. Who didn't know good from bad. That's not real, functional, modern free will. Theoretically circumscribed, by Romans 8:30, 9:21, 2 Timothy 1:9, and 2 Thessalonians 2. Or Revelations 13:8 - as it is said to be. Also - I see no good outcome in designing an angel with both pride... and no common sense. Or many other angels... gullible, to his arguments. It is the desire to sin - that really matters, here. And hasn't been enough explained. Adam and Eve got a fancy - that's all. They could barely judge it from one thing to another. What is 'bad' about death? Or disobedience? To one for who that, and Good, are abstractions alone? And how come this God could look on... slavery... bequeathable slavery... and infant-icide? Or the supposed 'testing' of Job by a being who would not care one way or the other what the test proved? And we do not truly know if all angels had 'all they wanted'. Nor what Eve dreamed of. We do know she did not die, however... not 'in the day'. And Adam saw she had lived. Plus - see Genesis 3:22. The snake did not tell the only lie... or half truth, say? That day. And no - not 'end of'. Not yet. 'Cast out' where to - and how far. And how safely.

@user-nz8uy1zm3z

26 күн бұрын

@@christopherpearson2116 That is free will. They chose to go against God when they had every reason not to. They are human beings too, they knew what they were doing. God didn't create lucifer with pride. Lucifer chose to be prideful through his free will. The angels lived a world of no evil or wrongness, serving God as they were created to. That is all that anyone wants, to be free from the evils of the world.

Great interview! If anything it would be great if there's a longer discussion on this and get WLC back :)

Just finished Craig's section ending at 32:00, and he sounds like an absolute psychopath to me. As long as "god" commands it, it's moral. Literally don't think for yourself, just accept it. Completely insane. Edit: Holy shit. Not even 10 minutes later, and it actually got so much worse. 😳 Edit 2: I do not recommend reading the replies to my comment. They are unnecessarily confusing thanks to one seeming defender of theistic morality.

@FinnA07

Ай бұрын

Replace God in any of these defences WLC gives with Hitler and it becomes obvious how dumb they are

@simon5007

Ай бұрын

I did the exact same thing. I felt the need to stop and comment right around mid way through the video, but then realized that I had made a mistake. It gets much worse.

@dinguskhan8883

Ай бұрын

Poor brave soldiers

@paulherring6426

Ай бұрын

Sam Harris called WLC out during their debate on the Divine Command theory. No matter what... If his god commands it, it's moral.

@toddramsey6893

Ай бұрын

Same!

If my family and I were being slaughtered by marauding zealots, the last thing on my mind would be whether or not their morality was internally consistent. Also, gotta hand it to Craig, he doesn't run away from the Euthyphro dillema. He grabs the bull by the horns and impales himself on the worse of the two options.

@Jockito

Ай бұрын

The last thing on my mind would also be whether or not they were divinely commanded to do so. I mean, who actually thinks they were ever going to think "this is probably divinely commanded, so we better flee in peace and give up our homes". Craig's retort that "no one had to die" is so blatantly ridiculous, it's disingenuous.

@uninspired3583

Ай бұрын

​@@Jockitoand yet we have fairly modern examples of this exact thinking playing out today. Canadian residential schools, 60s scoop...

@marukchozt6744

Ай бұрын

@@Jockito I mean, if you commit a crime that you think you didn't commit, when you are standing in court in defense of yourself, the last thing you are concerned about is to understand whether or not the court is just in condemning you. That's why you need a lawyer. We are not and aren't meant to be the final moral agent capable of discerning those things at all times.

@Jockito

Ай бұрын

@@marukchozt6744 I'm not saying the Canaanites should have been the final moral agents to discern what was just. Rather, the issue is that there was no epistemic way for them to verify that the Israelites were in fact commanded by God. Craig himself said that one would have to have an incredibly high level of justification for this. So the Canaanites were acting rationally to defend themselves. There was no other reasonable thing to assume, other than they were being attacked. Which again, is why the notion that the whole ordeal didn't have to be violent is just disingenuous.

@marukchozt6744

Ай бұрын

@@Jockito Heh? You said they shouldn't be the final moral agent to know those things and yet you proceed to say they need to be able to verify it? And yeah, their defense of themselves was rational

His argument remind me of one of those Crusader quotes "Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them. For the Lord knows who are His.). That is the origin of the modern phrase: "Kill them all and let God sort them out." Caesarius did not hear that statement firsthand but merely wrote that Arnaud was reported to have said it (dixisse fertur in the original text)."

"it's been ... ahh, let's just see what people think about this one" is just gold.

The insistence on divine command, when we have never ever observed one, is so astounding to me. William, there are NO DIVINE COMMANDS HAPPENING.

@waido_

Ай бұрын

How do you know? Do you know what a divine command looks or sounds like? If God is real, He is capable of speaking to His creations. What form would that appear in? Presumably you have some preconceived notion of how God would speak to us, how He should behave, and the kind of things He is “allowed” to command of us; why does it have to be that way? Why are you the arbiter of how a Supreme Being should be? God could be completely evil, it would not change the fact of His existence. The fact of the matter is, if God exists, and you don’t like God, YOU’RE the one in the wrong. What you’re doing is like a video game character getting mad at its developer; what right do you have to question _anything_ God does? You (and I, and everyone) are dust, using God’s very breath to blaspheme Him. Do you not see the problem with that?

@matthewbazeley2984

Ай бұрын

​@@waido_while reading your comment god spoke to me. He said I have to pass you a message. He said you must never comment on you tube ever again. Bless you 🙏🏽

@LeoVital

Ай бұрын

I just received a second revelation from God, praised be His name. He said that I should start a new covenant to improve the covenant started with the prophet​ @matthewbazeley2984 . The new covenant says that @waido_ should not use the internet as a whole and should just stay home playing LEGO. May His will be done!

@LeoVital

Ай бұрын

​@@matthewbazeley2984 I've also received a revelation from God, praised be His name. He said that I should start a new covenant to improve the covenant started with the prophet​ Matthew. The new covenant says that waido_ should not use the internet as a whole and should just stay home playing LEGO. May His will be done!

@thisnameisunique

Ай бұрын

@@waido_I see no problem with it. This “dust” is morally superior to this God.

Divine Command Theory, the loophole for Craig to avoid being called a Moral Relativist. So all evil is justified as long as the god of the Bible commanded it. Good job Craig, you’ve proven Dawkins point about you.

@YoungJustice1997

Ай бұрын

What standard of evil are you talking about, last I checked atheists don't believe in objective morality.

@johnjameson6751

Ай бұрын

Yes, and Alex has exposed WLC with polite questioning, just as WLC thought Alex did with Dawkins.

@alanpearly

Ай бұрын

Let me start by say I feel I agree more with Alex than Craig. Just admit you don’t know Craig. But should have pointed out that there is no rule that is unqualified. Alex is asking a very easy question, is it always wrong to kill a child? You can abstract this to “it is wrong to do X” I feel it is abhorrent. I cannot envisage any circumstance where this is moral therefore your doing X is immoral. Taking the example of the child, I can think of a circumstance. What if that child were to carry an infections disease like Ebola - a Typhoid Mary-like carrier - meaning the disease doesn’t kill the child. In that case you would kill the child to save thousands. Then admit that we BELIEVED there is a reason but we don’t know it.

@hamish001

Ай бұрын

I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s definitely appealing to a highly speculative and convenient technicality to avoid not just being called but actually being a moral relativist.

@mishtrong

Ай бұрын

​@alanpearly What the f is wrong with you? Of course, you wouldn't kill the child! You could isolate it and try to cure the disease, but jumping straight to murder is frankly abhorrent. Killing children is wrong, plain and simple, and if your first thought is to somehow justify the murder or try to find an example that does it, something is not right with you.

I'm just glad that this dude became a "philosopher" and not a politician or general or anything else with power. Absolute psychopath.

@rocketsurgeon1746

26 күн бұрын

are you pro abortion?

@shrekiscool4743

22 күн бұрын

​@@rocketsurgeon1746 the fuck does that have to do with anything

@rocketsurgeon1746

21 күн бұрын

@@shrekiscool4743 basics: you can't be mad at God for killing babies if you support killing babies. Simple logic

@shrekiscool4743

21 күн бұрын

@@rocketsurgeon1746 foetuses you mean? Because I personally don't think it's particularly fair to force people to deal with and raise children that they aren't prepared to care for. "Then don't have sex" Ok sure but what about things like rape? In that case the person *literally* had no choice and now they have to deal with a child despite the fact that they didn't do anything to deserve it. Does that sound fair to you?

@rocketsurgeon1746

21 күн бұрын

@@shrekiscool4743 you bring up rape, so can we agree abortion should never be used to kill an unborn baby except for rape?

Concerning 59:33, If Dr. Craig was a Canaanite, in Joshua 2:8-11, Rahab, a Canaanite hides two Israelite spies and explains why "Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof and said to the men, “I know that Yahweh has given you the land and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you. For we have heard how Yahweh dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction. Indeed we heard it, and our hearts melted, and a courageous spirit no longer rose up in any man because of you; for Yahweh your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." The Canaanites knew of the miracles God performed for the Israelites, knew how God had given them victory over the Amorites, and knew that God had given the Israelites the land. When they resisted the Israelites, they were purposefully resisting God's proven will, so it was not justified "epistemically" for the Canaanites to fight back. Epistemic means relating to knowledge, the Canaanites had the knowledge to decide to flee, fight, or join the Israelites. Based on their knowledge it would have been more logical not to fight, so the fact that they did, shows their decision to fight back wasn't based on logic, but on their own pride and rejection of God. Rahab was spared because she knew the truth and chose to accept God's will instead of fight against it. I wish more Canaanites had been like her. Joshua 6:25 says "However, Rahab the harlot and her father’s household and all she had, Joshua preserved alive; and she has lived in the midst of Israel to this day, for she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho." The truth is, if you humbly admit that God is real and He is right, and admit you have broken His law, then trust that He died on the cross for your sins, and turn from your sins, you will be saved and you will be one of God's people. You will join Rahab in an everlasting, perfect life forever if you humble yourself before God.

@cosmicmuffin322

18 күн бұрын

I make it a point of not worshipping any god that requires me to justify genocide.

@thebigyeeter4282

17 күн бұрын

@@cosmicmuffin322 Humans have justified genocide for countless other reasons than God. You don't get to stand on the high horse of atheism and outright reject genocide when your entire ideas around good and evil revolve around whatever the modern sensibilities suggest. Nazism convinced an entire country of normal people that the genocide of a particular race was the right thing to do. Imagine if they were successful and this view became mainstream in the modern day, you wouldn't be able to say that genocide as bad is common sense because in this hypothetical example, genocide as good would be the common sense.

I don't know if Alex is aware, but what he has achieved here is masterclass.

There's some extreme meme value with the title of this video in conjunction with the large smile on this guy's face in the thumbnail. Alex really knows his audience lmfao

@toonyandfriends1915

Ай бұрын

exactly i don't even think half of the people in the comment even watched the video bruh like it has been only 1 hour

@danw5760

Ай бұрын

Yes, he has to be careful if he wants to maintain respect and continue to attract interesting thinkers. He doesn't want seem cynical and tabloidy

@Consciousness_of_Reality

Ай бұрын

Which is a disgusting practice. Instead of a nuanced title, it was basically fishing for controversy, hate and anti intellectualism on people.

@Consciousness_of_Reality

Ай бұрын

@@danw5760 Which is a disgusting practice. Instead of a nuanced title, it was basically fishing for controversy, hate and anti intellectualism on people.

@peterschmidts8245

Ай бұрын

@@Consciousness_of_RealityI think the title is quiet accurate.

Saying that god told the israelites to drive out the caananites means its not genocide goes against the UN definition of genocide, in fact it fits the definition perfectly

Best thumbnail ever

Alex: let me step aside for a second... Craig: excellent. now let me impale myself.

He seems to think that driving a people out of their homes is an non-violent thing. This is such naive thinking.

@Jockito

Ай бұрын

What makes it worse is that the Canaanites didn't receive the same revelation from God as the Israelites. All they knew is that they were being invaded - they couldn't have even thought "well, it's what God wants so we better flee in peace". It was therefore inevitable for them to try to defend themselves (like any normal society). The whole notion that God didn't want them to be slaughtered is just not born out by the circumstances. And if God wanted them to flee in peace, why all this talk about God judging them for being evil? If they actually did flee in peace, then God apparently didn't really care about their evil.

@wunnell

Ай бұрын

It's not naive at all because he doesn't really think that. He's only claiming it in this case to make his god seem less of a monster. He doesn't even need to do so though because, if something is good because god says so, violence in this case would be good. he can't even be that honest though. He has to pretend that obvious violence isn't actually violence. Talk about denying reality.

@TremendousSax

Ай бұрын

​@@Jockitoyou make such a good point. WLC looks awful throughout this conversation

@TheMilitantMazdakite

Ай бұрын

Yeah, it is just like what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people today.

@davidblack1353

Ай бұрын

This is not really a discussion about Israeli armies and dying children… it is a discussion about worldviews and the grounding of ethics and morality… most comments here are laden with emotion about the atrocity of the Israeli actions and how appalling Craig is for defending them - but that emotion comes from our moral intuitions (which I share) which under Alex/Dawkin’s worldview has no objective underpinning… to put it another way, under atheism is there any reason why the killing of innocent children is truly wrong - other than ‘it just feels wrong’? And so, we come back to a war of two world views… 1 - under atheism, we have a sense of appall at the biblical story (and at a God who would command such a thing) and at Craig for defending it… but, with no objective basis for that emotional reaction… (indeed, some terrible dictator might argue that the indiscriminate killing of innocent children is a good thing - and under atheism we’d have no objective way to prove him wrong) 2 - while under theism we have the very paradigm of goodness and justice (God) commanding an act which ultimately serves his own good purposes but which to our moral instincts seems reprehensible… what on earth might these good purposes be?.. well, according to the biblical narrative, God ordered the exile/destruction of the Canaanites to execute judgement on a wicked people group and to advance the cause of his chosen people through whom he will ultimately bring about redemption of the earth - in the death and resurrection of Jesus… does this seem unjust?.. Yes!!.. But remember - under Craig’s worldview this action is just as reprehensible and unjust, should it be mandated by any one of us… but this action against the Canaanites was not mandated by one of us… it was ordered by God - who in his unique role as creator and judge of all people is the only one who is perfectly justified in giving such an order, as long as it is consistent with his character. And it seems that it is: in his role as just judge, he brings judgment against the Canaanites for their wickedness… while, out of his love God ensures that the innocent who suffer and die in the process, go on to enjoy an eternity in perfect peace and fulfilment And so, as always, whichever worldview you come to this debate with, entirely determines on what side of the fence you will land

Craig's defense is almost verbatim Nixon's defense in the Frost interview. "If the president does it then it's not illegal."

To witness that a human being can be so morally corrupted by their own imagination is terrifying. We've all heard about it but now you're looking right at him. He would instantly kill someone if he heard a voice in his head telling him to do so.

You had me at "The real victims were the Israeli Soldiers carrying out the slaughter."

@squanch3526

Ай бұрын

3000 years later and this argument is still being used to justify genocide

@makinapacal

Ай бұрын

Reminds me of Himmler's Posen speech made in 1944.

@Jockito

Ай бұрын

And yet Craig concluded that even they weren't ultimately wronged either. So no one was wronged - just winners all round.

@fahimp3

Ай бұрын

😂😅

@S.D.323

Ай бұрын

seems defending israeli atrocities has a long long history

38:17 "So it was actually a tremendous blessing for these children to be killed" What did i just hear.

@DonkasaurusNZ

Ай бұрын

When you go so far down the religious rabbit hole that you believe the lunacy you're spewing without second thought.

@GrammeStudio

Ай бұрын

one would think it's "just a view" but there are mothers who literally did this. one took her son's life so he'd be sent to heaven before he could be corrupted by the world. one must wonder: why are folks who share Craig's belief so against abortion then? it's not for any OBJECTIVE reason. it's only wrong SUBJECTIVE to who's doing the kiIIing.

@ellyam991

Ай бұрын

If I heard that out of context I would've thought it was an interview of a cult member. I'm astonished as to why Alex continues to platform people with ideologies like these

@legogoku7425

Ай бұрын

I've been hearing a lot of people trying to justify the killing of children lately.

@SamoaVsEverybody814

Ай бұрын

The "AlL-PoWeRfUl" OT god couldn't find a less PAINFUL way to resolve the situation yknow

The way that he smiles and laughs about things like "extermination" is exactly why I understand Dawkins' decision not to platform Craig. He says he approaches these things "dispassionately," but the reality is he is fascinated by the idea that genocide is moral if god commands it.

@rik80280

2 күн бұрын

Exactly. It’s so creepy. He’s so totally disinterested in morality. It doesn’t bother him at all. The only thing that gives him pause is the thought of the poor soldiers doing the slaughter. They are the only people he can think of that might be wronged in this situation. He would have made an ideal Nazi. How can we do this killing without harming too many German psyches?

@andrews6282

2 күн бұрын

​@@rik80280 Craig is not disinterested in morality?? You haven't even watched the episode if that's your conclusion. Most people in the comments are like solely trying to find a reason to degrade Craig. They are not trying to come to a conclusion. And your equivalence with Nazi?? Are you equating God's commands with hitler's?? Most people like you will do anything to not believe in the truth of God and I can't help you with that. If someone doesn't want to believe in God then they can be separate from God and God's not gonna force you to be with him.

I think WLC also could have pointed out - just because we don’t know why God commanded something doesn’t mean there isn’t a good reason for it that we don’t know about, and could maybe never know about because that event never came to fruition.

As someone who grew up within the Christian faith and was surrounded by people who both sounded like and espoused similar beliefs to William Lane Craig there is something unmistakable about his intonation and tone when he speaks. It's not so much the voice as it is the forced sincerity and kindness. It comes across as so incredibly smarmy and difficult to listen to. It makes my skin crawl, especially in the mismatch between the 'kindness' of the inflection and the 'brutality' of the acts he attempts to defend within the Old Testament. Anyways, thanks for the great interview Alex. I always appreciate your work.

@lfelssordnry

Ай бұрын

Absolutely unconvinced of his sincerity

@wataehebro1543

Ай бұрын

I feel the same, they all act similar and when yo have a lifetime of people like them telling you how sinful you are and how beatiful its gonna be when jesus come back to destroy the world and sent everyone to hell, yes, your skin tends to react.

@RationalistMH

Ай бұрын

'hate the sin love the sinner' kinda vibes

@timothy209

Ай бұрын

​@@wataehebro1543 Uhm.. I don't think you understand Christian theology? Maybe consult an AI to clear those misconceptions

@nagatom

Ай бұрын

That's interesting. As someone who grew up around atheists, and as one, I don't hear smarmy.

One of the very rare occasions when I can completely agree with Richard Dawkins. This man's views on the topic are absolutely egregious.

@LacayoDe

Ай бұрын

Where do you disagree with Richard I am curious I am yet to hear anything that I would genuinely disagree upon

@ShankarSivarajan

Ай бұрын

@@LacayoDe He advocates something not much better than this "divine command theory" thing when it comes to the "trusting the elites/experts," most recently with the "pandemic measures."

@GoldenMechaTiger

Ай бұрын

@@ShankarSivarajan wtf are you even talking about. Listening to experts on science is not at all comparable to command theory

@ShankarSivarajan

Ай бұрын

​@@GoldenMechaTiger Could you explain why committing atrocities because "science said so" and doing so because "God said so" are so different as to be incomparable? Is it merely that you believe one, and think the other is mostly nonsense meant to control stupid people?

@GoldenMechaTiger

Ай бұрын

@@ShankarSivarajan Nobody is committing atrocities because science said so. Science simply provides you with the current best understanding of the issue. Like washing your hands is good to prevent getting sick. That is not an atrocity.

I commend WLC for having the courage to reflect publicly on one of the most difficult topics in biblical theology. One important point here is that fear of harming ones own public image can negatively impact ones ability to speak freely, honestly, and openly. WLC does not let such fear limit his free speech, which is commendable. I also very much respect O'Connor for his intelligence, candour, and respectful manner of expressing disagreement.

@danieljohnstone6284

Ай бұрын

One thing which Craig intimated, but didn’t spend much time on was how he felt emotionally about the slaughter. He fully acknowledges Dawkins point from his (Dawkins) perspective and fully admits he had a struggle with this when he first learnedly it. As he said, he is arguing this point only in his capacity as a philosopher and does not input his own emotional ideas, which, to his credit, shouldn’t have a place in a philosophical discussion. I think it’s unfair to assume (which lots seem to do) that because he holds this view, that he doesn’t feel for the innocents.

@lars2323

Ай бұрын

@@danieljohnstone6284 great point!

@32shumble

29 күн бұрын

So do you agree with his free, honest and open justification of killing children?

@lars2323

28 күн бұрын

​@@32shumble not relevant for this thread. Read the original post.

@philpaine3068

28 күн бұрын

Stalin, Hitler and Mao also never feared the opinions of others, and also "bravely" expounded their belief that they could murder children or anyone else they chose to. If this is your measure of "courage," then please stay far away from me, and I pray that you never get anywhere within a city block of any child.

Alex: Genocide is wrong. WLC: No, [insert preposterous mystercism]. Dawkins: And that's why I stopped debating him...

Alex pointed out in the debate with Shapiro that believing that God grounds your morality could be bad if you believe evil things, as there would be no way for someone to change your mind. This is the great example of that.

@malirk

Ай бұрын

But it's ok to do the evil things because God commanded them and thus they are not evil.

@JATION

Ай бұрын

@@malirk Moral relativism with extra steps.

@OmniversalInsect

Ай бұрын

Exactly. Many theists speak like grounding morality is a good thing, when I think it's a terrible thing that prevents us from changing our attitude when we learn how an action may be harmful.

@loganmedia1142

Ай бұрын

@@OmniversalInsect It could be a good thing if we actually had a source of reliable moral authority. The problem in religion is that they have rules created by humans that they believe come from a god that is good and moral.

@EveryHappening

Ай бұрын

@@OmniversalInsect So morality is spontaneous and irreducibly fluid? Every moral standard is grounded. Where it is grounded is the essence of this debate. To say that grounding morals is a bad thing is to admit you don’t understand moral philosophy.

It sends shivers down my spine hearing this man talk about the killing of innocent children being morally justified if it has been commanded by god. This man is insane.

@davidblack1353

Ай бұрын

This is not really a discussion about Israeli armies and dying children… it is a discussion about worldviews and the grounding of ethics and morality… most comments here are laden with emotion about the atrocity of the Israeli actions and how appalling Craig is for defending them - but that emotion comes from our moral intuitions (which I share) which under Alex/Dawkin’s worldview has no objective underpinning… to put it another way, under atheism is there any reason why the killing of innocent children is truly wrong - other than ‘it just feels wrong’? And so, we come back to a war of two world views… 1 - under atheism, we have a sense of appall at the biblical story (and at a God who would command such a thing) and at Craig for defending it… but, with no objective basis for that emotional reaction… (indeed, some terrible dictator might argue that the indiscriminate killing of innocent children is a good thing - and under atheism we’d have no objective way to prove him wrong) 2 - while under theism we have the very paradigm of goodness and justice (God) commanding an act which ultimately serves his own good purposes but which to our moral instincts seems reprehensible… what on earth might these good purposes be?.. well, according to the biblical narrative, God ordered the exile/destruction of the Canaanites to execute judgement on a wicked people group and to advance the cause of his chosen people through whom he will ultimately bring about redemption of the earth - in the death and resurrection of Jesus… does this seem unjust?.. Yes!!.. But remember - under Craig’s worldview this action is just as reprehensible and unjust, should it be mandated by any one of us… but this action against the Canaanites was not mandated by one of us… it was ordered by God - who in his unique role as creator and judge of all people is the only one who is perfectly justified in giving such an order, as long as it is consistent with his character. And it seems that it is: in his role as just judge, he brings judgment against the Canaanites for their wickedness… while, out of his love God ensures that the innocent who suffer and die in the process, go on to enjoy an eternity in perfect peace and fulfilment And so, as always, whichever worldview you come to this debate with, entirely determines on what side of the fence you will land

@ellyam991

Ай бұрын

​@@davidblack1353no, not at all. There's more than a philosophical discussion of worldviews, which is why Alex says many times that even though he can't point to a contradiction there are many intuitions that are undermined by Craig's model. You don't need to be an atheist or a theist a priori, since there are many theists who wouldn't agree to divine command theory too

@mayank78207

Ай бұрын

​@@davidblack1353Very well put. It's ironic that the listeners of this channel might otherwise pretend to be rational but resort to emotion the moment their intuitions fail against a more consistent theory. That's what seperates Alex as despite that he tries to present reasonable arguments even if he based them on reliability of intuitions.

@whenimmanicimgodly4228

Ай бұрын

What bothers me so much is how he just goes back to these like nothing burger sentencences like "you see morality is imposed by a moral imperative to help be moral, so because od the moral imperative and the genocide of canannitez" like BRO WHAT

@dantedemello

Ай бұрын

the idea goes -> if there is an all just god, i wouldn’t mind being killed to be with him to be saved from the evil around me. however, the problem is that this turns the whole argument backwards where you are proving these morals with god’s existence instead of indirectly supporting god’s existence via his goodness through his own written morals

As a Christian that was a hard watch not going to lie. Thanks for having these conversations and both the grace that you show your guests as the rigorous way you hold them account for their words. I don't think I have found anyone that does this like you do Alex you are defiantly a blessing to the world.

@president234

Күн бұрын

As a Christian who disagrees with WLC, what do you think God's explanation was for killing the women and children?

@phamtom27070

Күн бұрын

​@@president234 I am currently working on an answer myself, but since you asked. I will give you a half-baked answer, as I still need to check all the information. God said go and kill all the sinners. - 1 Samuel 15:18 I consider this to include babies and children, but not animals since they aren't humans. But most people would say that children, babies and animals are innocent so let us go with that, even though I don't believe it. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and etc. Ephesians 6:12 The "we" is referring to us and not God from what I can tell, but God is also fighting a spiritual battle. Exodus 20:5 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

@phamtom27070

Күн бұрын

@@president234 This sounds harsh like it is saying God will kill the children and babies, because of their parents' sin. Possible, but let us use it to say that is possible to have an infected spiritual dna. Since you can pass down sickness and other problems to your children through dna, so too with sin. Whatever keeps you healthy in God is not there, because the parents are worshipping idols. So, they're actions aren't helping, and they aren't praying over the babies. Now here is the problem in Mark 5:12 They say send us into the swine. Which means it is Jesus power that move them out from the man into the pigs. I believe they said that because when Jesus cast out devils, they either are cast out to the deep or out of the country. Mark 5:10 & Luke 8:31 Instead of them being send into the pigs, Jesus allowed them to go into the pigs by their own power. We can see this at Mark 5:12 where they say "that we may enter them" which can be taken that it was by their own power they entered the pigs. (I could be wrong here) But in Matthew 8:31 and Luke 8:32 it says suffer them to, which means to allow them to. So, in other words they enter the pigs by their own power. God fights spiritual battle, and he wants to be 100% victorious. If your parents don't pray for you, you could get possessed. Since the devils can enter pigs by their own power, they can exit humans and animals by their own power too. I believe if you kill the sinners who are adults, the spirits will just move to the children, babies or even animals. Since they are not under any spiritual protection of the Lord like prayers, and God wants to be victorious in this spiritual battle. They must all be eradicated to ensure the devils do not escape.

@president234

Күн бұрын

​@phamtom27070 I agree with God's decision against the canaanites. What I was trying to ask was to that Christian who disagrees with God on why he thinks God is wrong

Thanks for this- I really respect WLC for his honesty and clear focus on following intellectual, logical and philosophical reasoning. If I may speak in general terms, so often in todays society it is the Christian who is branded as falling back on argument by intuition, where the Atheist is seen as the logician. Whatever your view on this topic- here, in the positions of Dawkins and WLC; it seems to be the other way round! Also really appreciate Alex how respectful you and WLC are to each other. So encouraging to see people of such different viewpoints still managing to be so congenial/respectful to each other.

Jews didn't have to be deported to the camps, it was only those who chose to stay behind and not to flee. To be an apologist and be able to live with himself. He lost me several times but completely at divine command morality, an oxymoron. Dawkins should not debate this guy, he is deluded and IMO dangerous.

@Shehatescash

Ай бұрын

You’re retarded. The command from hitler was to take up Jews and throw them in camps and kill them. The Nazi’s didn’t say “only kill the Jews who stay” the Nazi’s said “kill all the Jews”. You’re trying too hard and failing

@michaelhenton159

Ай бұрын

🤦🏼‍♂️ I mean if you think child sacrifice is dope just say so. To me, the culture that would allow such horrific acts is far more dangerous than a person who thinks that an attempt to end said acts is justified. But hey, call me deluded too, I guess.

@Sebanovic5

Ай бұрын

@@michaelhenton159in your worldview, what happened to the children whose parents would’ve had them sacrificed but were interrupted by the Israelites invading?

@waido_

Ай бұрын

@@Sebanovic5 is there a discernible point to your question? I’m not seeing one.

@Shehatescash

Ай бұрын

@@Sebanovic5 God always granted the children heaven. Even when they were being sacrificed. The fact that the children are dying is not inherently the issue, the issue is that mere humans are killing the children. And when humans kill they do not confer good, they only confer suffering, it is god alone who confers good to the child. That is why humans cannot kill children but god is justified in permitting it. Because god confers an infinite good and saves then from future suffering, while the human simply confers suffering onto the child

And thus the root of all religious evil in the world - just convince yourself that God has commanded you to slaughter your perceived enemies and you’re good to go. Craig’s moral theory is truly monstrous.

@LeoVital

Ай бұрын

Oh, but objective morality!!! How can society function if we don't have the Christian God being the foundation of an objective morality!? The objectively moral God: "Murder the children of these folks, plz". The memes make themselves.

@colinsparman26

Ай бұрын

Just as Allah commanded the Hamas!

@daily-charge

Ай бұрын

That's if you don't believe God exist

@Sebanovic5

Ай бұрын

@@daily-chargebut even if you do, there’s no way to tell who’s acting on God’s command and who’s just pretending. In a world where divine command theory is universally accepted, there’s no way around this problem. Justice systems would completely fail.

@geebster.

Ай бұрын

There hasnt ever been a religious genocide that Craig didnt just fully justify.

I’m amazed by your ability to remain calm in this discussion.

Love your channel ... just for your info, the Theory of Gravity does describe all gravitational attractions ...

Is it me, or did WLC do exactly what Dawkins said he would?

@Vhlathanosh

Ай бұрын

He did everything Dawkins said he would. Wait a minute, is Dawkins a prophet? 😅

@preddysun_official6913

Ай бұрын

​@@Vhlathanoshat this point, I'm convinced

@Baran-lq7mc

Ай бұрын

Because that was always his opinion. This was not a secret.

@ellyam991

Ай бұрын

​@@Vhlathanosh all hail the selfish gene!

@markauckland666

Ай бұрын

For me, its merely reinforced that WCL is a dreadful man.. God Deluded

The funniest thing is that he keeps underlying the "just & loving nature" of Yahweh every time he talks about the divine ability to override our moral intuitions and slaughter innocent children. That's a pretty interesting way of interpreting love.

@kimehragovindasamy9897

Ай бұрын

I had this thought too. Does he not hear himself?

@davegold

Ай бұрын

It invites questions about how we can have a human perception of Heaven being pure good if the infallible divine dictator can freely perform acts we perceive as pure evil.

@matthewnitz8367

Ай бұрын

Yes, I think these types of arguments should really undermine Christian's unwavering belief that God has their best interests at heart. Let's just grant the Canaanites were utterly depraved and wicked. It is literally Christian doctrine, and I am relatively sure one that is accepted by Craig, that due to original sin we are ALL depraved and wicked, unworthy of any redemption or mercy from God. If this depravity does indeed justify God in taking any action against us due to our wickedness and failure to live up to his standards of perfection, God is perfectly justified in lying to all Christians that they will have an eternal life in joy if they trust in Jesus, and then torturing them forever for being so arrogant and prideful as to believe they would be treated better just for those beliefs. Lying and torturing people is only immoral if people are unjustly harmed, and is it justice for all humans to suffer eternally, so it does not go against God just and loving nature to do so. Terrifying stuff that Craig's brain just blocks out because obviously God wouldn't do anything bad to HIM, it is the other horrible wicked people that God will righteously burn for eternity.

@ShuggieEdvaldson

Ай бұрын

​@@davegold Maybe the problem doesn't lie with God per se, but with our own interpretation of reality? If God exists and God is omniscient, then who are we to question his judgement? Maybe we've become completely obssessed with power these days - the power to control our own destiny, the power to control each other in all sorts of tyrannical ways - the power to give life and to take it away? Science can make us feel like gods at times, but it's an illusion, if Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos & King Charles are gods, then we're obviously screwed for all eternity, aren't we? :) Why would anyone want to live in a world that devalues their worth to the level of a mere commodity/lab rat? Naw, it's us - not God, we're drunk on power, simple as that. "People are crazy, and times are strange, i'm locked-in tight, i'm outta range, i used to care but... things have changed!" - Bob Dylan

Really well done interview!

Yikes. This really brings to life the quote: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg

@Twittchyy

Ай бұрын

Hitchens said something similar unless he was quoting Weinberg

There are a couple of things I would have liked Craig to be pushed harder on: - He talks about the epistemic burden, and how one can know that God is in fact giving a divine command. I'm curious what it would take to get Craig to believe that God was giving him a command; would a vision be sufficient, or would he require a higher bar of evidence? What kind of evidence would be required to get him to kill innocent children? On a related note, could the Israelites have been mistaken about whether or not God really commanded them to drive out the Canaanites? Even if they were not mistaken and God truly did command the slaughter, were they justified in committing it on the basis of the evidence that they had? - Craig claims towards the end that God is restricted by his just and loving nature; he says there are commands that God could not make because they would be contrary to that nature. However, if God is the standard of love and justice, then anything he does is by definition loving and just. Additionally, if killing kids does not contradict God's 'loving and moral nature', then I struggle to thing of what action would.

@Dan16673

Ай бұрын

That's my point. How do we confirm a divine commandment? I mean he believes old book written by men is divine and based on that. One dude just needs to say God told him

@LacayoDe

Ай бұрын

Excellent comment

@flashbash2

Ай бұрын

To your first point: yes, many Christians take a reading of the Bible that sees the Isrealites as wrestling with their understanding of God. It seems clear to most Christians that God would not command such a thing today. It seems clear that this is in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus for example, to love your enemy. To the second point: that's the exact point it falls apart, right? Craig is holding on so tightly to the part of his brain that recognizes the extreme immorality of the version of God he believes in. By who's standard does he insist that certain things would never be commanded by God? He is putting limits on God that God seems to be okay with removing from time to time. The very God that doesn't want sacrifice demanded it. The very same God that demanded mercy and forgiveness demands violence and slaughter. And this view of God is consistent with human nature. There's an irony when you insist that God's nature is more loving and more forgiving and more reconcilitory than our own, people will tell you that is a God of our own making.

@onedaya_martian1238

Ай бұрын

Craig's sociopathic abstraction, er 'god' needed a child sacrifice, but not just any child, but "god's child" which is really an avatar of itself... hence this jeezuz idea...that loves billy !! And now Bill ritualistically, but symbolically !! eats this avatar's body and drinks his blood. Jeffrey Dahmer sounds almost sane compared to WLC's religion.

@cyrilc189

Ай бұрын

Regarding your second point, WLG is basically arguing that the end justifies the means. The killing of innocent children is justified because it's a blessing to them as they all go to heaven. In his mind, this nullifies the cruelty of the action, enabling him to say "see? They all go to a far better place, therefore God's command was consistent with his good and loving nature".

Absolute Madman. He should listen to himself once in a while. Sitting there and saying killing innocent children is ok if god demands it. Feels like listening to the logic of suicide bombers. Smh.

@ericbilderback7676

Ай бұрын

Is genocide wrong? Why? I thought Craig's explanation was unsatisfactory. There may not be an explanation that can be justified. But I keep coming back to if there is no God there is no right or wrong. And I want people that are atheists to think that through and then own the fact that none of this even matters.

@jursamaj

Ай бұрын

@@ericbilderback7676 Listen to yourself. If the only right/wrong is what a god says, then it's not morality at all. It's just kissing the ass of the biggest bully. And of course things matter. They matter to *US.*

@hanspeter6427

Ай бұрын

@@ericbilderback7676 That is ridiculously nonsensical to me. If there is no god, then good and bad is up for discussion. Funny enough, this is exactly what we have always done, even while having these religious "guidelines" (that everyone tends to interpret slightly different). Killing is not evil because the bible says so, but because it makes sense. In every culture, in every religion. Just because we are able to justify cruel deeds that do not align with our moral beliefs (a triple hooray for cognitive dissonance), does not mean that there was any divine command to do so. If the Canaanites really were slaughtered and forced out of their land, then that is literal genocide and the bible is just whitewashing their history.

@waido_

Ай бұрын

If you make a video game, you’re allowed to remove any character you want, at any time, for any reason-even and especially if those “characters” are using _your life force_ to exist in the first place.

@LeoVital

Ай бұрын

@@waido_ If humans are just pawns in God's game, why would we respect him? I'd fear a being that is willing to "remove me" just because it has the power to do so, of course, but I'd not respect him, much less adore him. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Go ahead and defend genocide and the mass murder of children because it's your God doing it, but you don't get to then turn around and say "Isn't he a perfectly good and lovely God?? We should adore him!". If that sort of God existed, I'd despise him.

What a fantastic conversation. Thank you, Alex, for being a wonderful interlocutor, and thank you to Dr. Craig for being willing to enter the lion's den. So to speak.

This is gold

It's shocking what religion does to people's minds. Thanks Alex for showing this to everyone.

@gerardgauthier4876

Ай бұрын

Just imagine if WLC was raised in the Manson family.

@TheRealShrike

Ай бұрын

Alex is smartly subtle. He invites Craig on and lets him hoist himself with his own petard.

@randyrobinson2609

Ай бұрын

We are all religous. That is, we all worship something. Even those who think they don't worship, they worship their own thinking. What Christianity brings is a foundation for proper object of worship. And, morality must be based on something other than our thinking. A fluid flexible morality brings on the worst of humanity. What is the basis of your moral judgments?

@TheRealShrike

Ай бұрын

​​@@randyrobinson2609all morality is subjective. Everyone makes a subjective decision about what to put at the top of the decision-making pyramid. Merely saying you put God at the top of the pyramid doesn't buy you anything. It doesn't solve the problem! It just kicks the can further down the road. You can call it biblical morality or you can think that you're basing your morality on the ten commandments or some such, but you're not really doing that. You're taking the Bible as a starting point and then (hopefully) using reason and logic to assess whether or not these biblical rules make sense, and then making your moral decisions based on your own interpretations of the biblical rules. PS of course morality should be flexible! That's the entire point of famous books like the Scarlet Letter, the Crucible, and Les Mis.

@ballisticfish1212

Ай бұрын

@@randyrobinson2609I am not religious in any widely agreed sense of the word

“Canaanites were so wretched that they sacrificed children to their Gods” and “Israelite soldiers were the victims because their God told them to exterminate thousands of children”

@onedaya_martian1238

Ай бұрын

Note that Craig's god demanded a child sacrifice, but in this case is was god, or an avatar of god, but actually the son of god, who is the same as god who is a father. Hmmm, no wonder Craig can spew his evil psycho-bible stuff believing such a twisted idea.

@tomasrocha6139

Ай бұрын

What's ironic is that Yahweh orders the Israelites to "turn the Canaanites over to him" so herem warfare is a form of human sacrifice to Yahweh

@durrangodsgrief6503

Ай бұрын

@@onedaya_martian1238 do you not comprehend trinitarian belief the son is of the same substance as the father a singular divine essence and how is the self sacrifice of god equal child sacrifice

@onedaya_martian1238

Ай бұрын

​@@durrangodsgrief6503 What is to comprehend, when a contradiction is presented ? Saying things like "a father and son are the same but different" makes anything possible. That babble-ing story has the son/god plead to not have to die, but dad/god made the rules...the stupidity in all this goes on and on. For example, how does a god die, especially for three days ??? And "To get to the father, one has to go through the son" makes no sense irr f they are the same but different. This is completely incoherent...and thinking a rational person is inferior because they actually comprehend this is obvious nonsense, is why religion should be classed as a mental disorder. It leads to thinking the world is flat or 6000 years old or genocide is moral !!(see William Lane Craig explain this to Alex O'Conner on KZread) That's just dangerous and leads to planes flying into buildings.

@S.D.323

Ай бұрын

"The keyword here is BLACKWHITE. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to BELIEVE that black is white, and more, to KNOW that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary." - 1984

Vile. That a modern day philosopher would stand and defend the deeds of blood-lusting barbarians attacking their fellow Canaanites and then smile when stating, without any evidence whatsoever (other than the books of the blood-lusting barbarians which of course agrees with their reasoning behind genocide) that they were "depraved" is just vile. Any tyrannical regime that succeeds in winning "lebensraum" over its neighbours would of course say the exact same thing. "We are not invading, we are liberating." "We are not murdering, we are cleansing the wicked." "We are not committing genocide, we are leading them away from the lands our god promised us." As someone living in Germany, who has visited concentration and extermination camps here, I will just point out that I have encountered the same kind of rhetoric in the propaganda of the first half of the 20th century. Even though the events mentioned in the Hebrew Bible probably never happened, shame on WLC for being a spokesperson and advocate of genocide!

@slalissg3813

Ай бұрын

What about philosophers defending abortion? And Peter Singer defending Infanticide?

@nilssturman5258

Ай бұрын

@@slalissg3813 Whataboutism isn't a particularly convincing or cogent comeback. I was referring to WLC, a man who claims to be a "good Christian". The rhetoric and arguments that he uses make me doubt that he is either of those two things.

25:00 The ol' "They didn't have to die, they could have just left their homes and belongings to the marauders, and march thousands of miles to the next country".... as if that isn't a death sentence, especially thousands of years ago.... This moral argument is really something else

@CB66941

Ай бұрын

Isn't that an Israeli talking point for what is happening in Gaza?

@fredfinger7092

Ай бұрын

So... by this "logic"... no one in Ukraine has to be killed or injured, "if they would simply retreat" and give Ukraine to Putin... what kind of an argument is that? Is the speaker serious? Does he even understand what he's saying?

@avan432

Ай бұрын

Also, Craig contradicts the Bible here. It is described that Canaanites must be completely destroyed, including womans, children and old men. Cities must be burned, altars destroyed, and Jews are meant to dominate promised land in such a brutal way. Actually, Craig could have been perfectly slapped by Alex by bringing those citations from the Bible, although I'm 💯 sure Craig would still find some way to twist that around too.

@theinvestingpalace4710

Ай бұрын

@@avan432did you watch the video? He does bring up those points

@avan432

Ай бұрын

@@theinvestingpalace4710 I watched the video, but I suppose you misread or misunderstood me. Alex didn't bring exact citations from Bible that would contradicts Craig's softening on Godly command about Canaanites. It would be so fun to watch Craig trying to massage Bible words to get what he wants them to mean. And also would be way more apparent from that what a lying fraud Craig is.

Masterfully done, Alex. He said everything we needed to hear. I'm horrified.

@rizdekd3912

Ай бұрын

What is interesting is how WLCraig simultaneously defends the notion of a holocaust directed at the Canaanites while saying he is certain that the holocaust Hitler did was wrong.

@ballisticfish1212

Ай бұрын

@@rizdekd3912exactly. What if god told hitler and the Nazis it was right but told them not to tell anyone. Craig’s logic demands that possibility be considered

@rizdekd3912

Ай бұрын

@@ballisticfish1212 It is interesting how often the holocaust is thrown out as a 'well if there is no objective morality then who's to say the holocaust is wrong?' But...as we see they can't answer who IS to say it was wrong...certainly not someone referring to the Bible for their basis of morality. They call it mass murder...but in another context (a context BTW that I don't agree with) it was mass execution of enemies of the state...that is how Hitler saw them. And there seems to be no moral repugnance for executions...at least from the Abrahamic religions/God. So it's down to subjective basis for saying the executions Hitler oversaw were wrong while other mass executions are right.

William Lane Craig's defense of the Canaanite conquest, though deeply unsettling to many, highlights the intricate dilemmas faced when reconciling faith with actions that defy modern sensibilities. His unwavering adherence to Divine Command Theory leads him down a logically sound yet profoundly troubling path. Craig's intellectual integrity shines through his unflinching examination of such complex issues, even as his conclusions leave us grappling with difficult questions. The fundamental tension lies in the very concept of Divine Command Theory - if morality flows solely from God's decrees, then acts that seem unjustifiable to us may hold a different logic within that framework. While Craig's intellectual honesty is commendable, the ultimate challenge lies in wrestling with the nature of morality itself when guided by the dictates of an all-powerful deity.

@danieltoth9742

Ай бұрын

Indeed. The main problem with Craig's defense is not the logic, but the implication that divine authority overrides common sense morality. That by itself may be fine, but when there is a precedent that divine authority can command... _that..._ then literally anything can be interpreted as a divine command. In places like the Middle East, that very scenario is _happening right now._

@stefanheinzmann7319

Ай бұрын

​@@danieltoth9742Divine command morality is an oxymoron. You don't need any morality when all you have to do is to obey commands. When WLC calls this moral, he misunderstands the very point of morality, which is that moral people can decide by themselves between good and bad. They are able to judge by themselves. And that means they can judge God's actions described in the bible. The consequences, sadly, aren't just being enacted in the middle east, they have been enacted over and over again throughout history. WLC's arguments are as old as religion, and have been used to justify countless atrocities.

@Racingbro1986

Ай бұрын

Craig is showing surprisingly a bit of Calvinism in his Divine command theory. The reason it is unsettling is it places God as the one who defines right and wrong. Wrong is what does not bring God glory, right is what brings God glory. If God is the definition of “Goodness” then he is the maximum embodiment of that which brings himself Glory. The destruction of the Canaanite’s was justified by destroying that which did not bring himself glory. In destroying the people he destroyed the worshiping of False Gods. But since the the Israelites failed to complete this they later fell into worshiping these false Gods. So therefor their act of not completing this decree (Slaughter of the cannanites) was actually a sin because it caused them to in the future return to false Gods. Which did not bring God glory.

@AbdiHassan-jq2ln

Ай бұрын

Justifying the brutal slaughter of innocent children in order to justify a belief system doesn’t reflect “intellectual integrity” Being unwaveringly adherent to anything when it leads you to such a vile and stupid conclusion is ridiculous

@Racingbro1986

Ай бұрын

@@AbdiHassan-jq2ln your very perception of this as being wrong and not normative is as a result of the cultural influence of ancients before you and one of those being the early Christians who nearly single-handedly eradicated things such as child/human sacrifice.

thanks William. great interview

“Yeah, if you just ethically cleanse yourself, no need to genocide you.” Bill Craig 2024

@stueyapstuey4235

Ай бұрын

I guess it's not just the epistemic bar that's being lowered, huh?

Craigs argument about the Israelite soldiers suffering the most reminded me of how the Einsatzgruppen suffered mental trauma from killing so many Jews. Totally sick to make the claim that these kinds of people were the real victims

@danielfincher8439

Ай бұрын

I don't know what that group was, but that would give me PTSD.

@Whoknowsuknow

Ай бұрын

@danielfincher8439 nazis who were originally tasked with elimination of all the Jews

@srrlIdl

Ай бұрын

@@danielfincher8439 They were Nazi death squads

@stefans.466

Ай бұрын

Didnt you listen? The Caanites were abhorent people, victims of something they brought onto themselves.

@lesliewells-ig5dl

Ай бұрын

very apt analogy

I am a Christian and love William Lane Craig. But my comment is for you Alex. I truly enjoy your debates and interviews. You are so gracious and mature in your debating style. You are so fun to listen to even if I disagree with you sometimes you are so respectful and not hateful in your interactions and that is extremely refreshing! Thank you for teaching me more about how debates should work! Truly a fan!!

@danieltoth9742

Ай бұрын

Always glad to see people who disagree leave kind comments. The world could use more of that behaviour.

@tim1903

Ай бұрын

he was not debating as much as he was interviewing yes he did a great job interviewing. this is how we should talk about things.

@ChristinaBiasca

Ай бұрын

@@tim1903 yeah this was for sure an interview. I was simply talking about his debating style in other debates I’ve watched him in. I enjoy the way he debates and interviews.

@AntiCitizenX

Ай бұрын

"I am a Christian and love William Lane Craig." If you can honestly say this after watching this video, then you're literally a dangerous psychopath. The man just spent an hour defending the horrible murder of children, and your moral compass sees nothing wrong it. I truly hope I never encounter you in the street, because I would be violently terrified just to be near you.

@Espenvitus

Ай бұрын

@@ChristinaBiasca Imagine watching a guy spend an hour defending genocide, and then having the compulsion to leave a comment, pointing out you dont always agree with the other guy...

Unfortunately for WLC it presupposes god’s existence, which he knowingly accepts as a presuppositionalist While it’s internally consistent, it bears no correspondence to reality

@dawidvanstraaten

8 күн бұрын

WLC strikes me as the type of person who would follow the authority of an evil dictator calling it an "authoritive command"

@chemquests

8 күн бұрын

@@dawidvanstraaten yes, he explicitly states as much with Divine Command Theory. Hitchens called WOC’s heaven a “celestial North Korea”.

"I think you eviscerated his position in that interview. But you did it so sweetly and so gently that I don't think he had any idea of what actually went on" an ominous premonition

@Lambkin-_-

Ай бұрын

Spoiler alert

@krzesio11

Ай бұрын

One could say, "holy irony"

@transcendentphilosophy

Ай бұрын

Jesus Christ this is accurate

@byron2127

Ай бұрын

Oh the irony 😄

@ArekDod

Ай бұрын

Fr I was screaming at the top of my lungs. This was the toughest one to watch of this man's Psychotic rent.

Alex is playing chess with these interviews. I look forward to more!

@bryanburbank7855

Ай бұрын

I love how he "steel mans" his opponents so he can fully understand their position before deconstructing it.

@OhManTFE

Ай бұрын

@@bryanburbank7855 did... did you just invent a new term??

@FinnA07

Ай бұрын

@@OhManTFE What term?

@Steven_DunbarSL

Ай бұрын

​​@@OhManTFEIf you're talking about their use of steelman, that is not new. It's the opposite of strawman. Steelmanning, I'll call it, is presenting your opponents argument in its strongest form.

@Tommygun1998

Ай бұрын

@@OhManTFE Steel man is a pretty common debate term now. It's the opposite of straw-manning.

"Formerly there were those who said: You believe things that are incomprehensible, inconsistent, impossible because we have commanded you to believe them; go then and do what is injust because we command it. Such people show admirable reasoning. Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. If the God‐given understanding of your mind does not resist a demand to believe what is impossible, then you will not resist a demand to do wrong to that God‐given sense of justice in your heart. As soon as one faculty of your soul has been dominated, other faculties will follow as well. And from this derives all those crimes of religion which have overrun the world." -Voltaire

To WLC's credit he remained internally consistent with his position. But at what cost?

Alex, you eviscerated Craig so sweetly that he didin't even know what happened.

@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271

Ай бұрын

Just like he did Richard Dawkins

@unduloid

Ай бұрын

@@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271 At least Dawkins isn't in favor of genocide.

@manny4012

Ай бұрын

@@unduloidyou actually believe in objective morality?

@unduloid

Ай бұрын

@@manny4012 Nope. Objective morality is an oxymoron.

@manny4012

Ай бұрын

@@unduloid so genocide isn’t immoral or moral?

I'm imagining Alex calling Dawkings and saying: "And that's how you expose a lunatic. Did the job for you. You're welcomed".

@ArcherMVMaster

Ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@simonpajger1331

Ай бұрын

At the beginning WLC said "You destroyed Dawkins, without him noticing", Alex grinned quite visibly... now I ask, whether the case was, that he knew, he was going to do the very same thing again... right in this interview :D

@DejiAdegbite

Ай бұрын

Lol. 🤣🤣🤣

@kb7890

Ай бұрын

Alex didn’t have to do anything other than give Lane permission to score repeated own goals. Ouch!

As we all know, faith is very powerful and I wish I had more of it. I could walk to the post office and even cross the road to the library. With practice I might be able to run, swim and play the piano !

WLC makes some genuinely terrifying excuses in this interview

Best evidence I've ever seen for the quote "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." The standard this sets is that anyone with conviction of their God should feel entitled to do whatever they want. The implication of this is far worse than any atheistic moral framework ever could be.

@johnjameson6751

Ай бұрын

I had the exact same thought. Even more chilling for me is that the only requirement WLC placed on Divine Command is that it be "consistent".

@allanhernandez6692

Ай бұрын

Interesting that he wouldn't get into the epistemological argument. Because saying "how can one tell?" Seems to be yet another fundamental issue. After admitting that it's kosher for God to order the killing of children, he has to hide behind the "but you can't ever be justified in knowing you've been ordered!" so that he can avoid any responsibility for someone repeating that genocide today.

Craig’s view on Divine command is the reversal of Dostoyevsky’s “Without God, then everything is permitted” - which was already pointed by Žižek.

@AaronHarvey86

Ай бұрын

Kinda, Craig’s argument is “For God, everything is permitted”. So Craig can reason, therefore there is no inconsistency. There is so much wrong with this.

@casaroli

Ай бұрын

@@AaronHarvey86 I don't think it's inconsistent, I just pointed out that it's the opposite: by God's command, everything is permitted.

@AaronHarvey86

Ай бұрын

@@casaroli But ONLY if WE do it. Craig's logic is that morality comes from God and therefore God doesn't need to obey the same code. It's not consistent from our point of view, and it's irrelevant from God's point of view, therefor remains consistent. To me, I believe humans naturalistic/secular morality is superior to God’s due to the fact that it has to remain consistent. God on the other hand can change from black to white whenever he wants because God gets to decide what is good or bad, right or wrong at his own discretion with no justification, other than, I’m God, I can do what I want. (Oh and trust me, it's for the greater good, but you just can't see it because you're a silly little human.- God"

Somebody should timestamp all the rebuttals Alex is offering up regularly like 34:20. (A logical conclusion of "Inherent morality") Very soft and perspicacious but regular push back. I like it! In so doing Alex gets William to "affirm that moral intuition...it would be objectively wrong (the killing of the Canaanites)" 36:35 (while still trying to defend "divine command"). I see where this is leading. Shouldn't we judge these "commands" as 'immoral'? 45:40 nuff said, "moral repugnacy"

Good lord, what did I just watch? William Lane Craig basically just confessed to being a violent sociopath.

@harveywabbit9541

Ай бұрын

The Canaanites/Philistines are the five constellations found in Revelation 9.5. These five months/signs/constellations represent the winter season of hardship where people often went hungry as the saved crops were consumed. The scorpion constellation is cursed throughout the bible as it was thought to bring on the winter season of non crop growth. See Rev 9.5., where the scorpion is the "leader" of Sagittarius thru Pisces. The fourth son of Ham (Heat - the summer season) is Canaan aka the constellation of the scorpion. The terrible five months/signs of winter is also the five mice and five emerods.

@AntiCitizenX

Ай бұрын

@@harveywabbit9541 you’re a lunatic. Get a therapist.

I just realized that William's argument is similar to an Islamic Jihadist. Anyone kind of see the similarities?

@Gurkenklemme

Ай бұрын

Jup. It's not only similar but it's the same rhetoric that religious fanatics are always utilising. It's dangerous and it's irrelevant which religion it exactly is based on.

@geebster.

Ай бұрын

Yeah I commented the same thing. If you watch old Bin Laden tapes he makes the exact same argument. All religious genocide or violence is justified by Craigs argument, unless you can prove that they really didnt speak to God...which you cant...

@Brc-kg1mg

Ай бұрын

Its the exact same rhetoric. Disgusting.

@jacksonelmore6227

Ай бұрын

I like what atheists unconsciously think they’re trying to do, but you’re comment just comes off as so surface level, you’re petty and in your ego

@ericgraham8150

Ай бұрын

I immediately picked up on that vibe as well. Like a shiver down the ol’ spine.

With a smile on his face, he effectively says "who is wronged by this genocide?" Holy shit.

@DanSoloha

Ай бұрын

Those who _were_ wronged by the genocide are in his outgroup rather than his ingroup, so of course he doesn’t think of the victims as people

@emmanuelmannymojo2591

Ай бұрын

Did he actually say that, verbatim? I don't remember that but you have put speech marks over it, implying that you have quoted him directly.

@truthbetold8233

Ай бұрын

@@emmanuelmannymojo2591 I think I quoted him accurately but I'd have to go back to make sure.

@truthbetold8233

Ай бұрын

​@@emmanuelmannymojo2591 the exact wording is "who has been wronged by this action". So I guess I'm paraphrasing a bit.

@warptens5652

Ай бұрын

@@emmanuelmannymojo2591 you can open the transcript and do ctrl f and type: wronged 46:29

Alex's true power is in his ability to listen to such a high degree of non-sense without interrupting, laughing, eye rolling etc...

William isn't actually taking this seriously. If William were to be among a whole tribe and take hand in this type of violence it would destroy him. This is mass murder with hand tools within arms reach. This is killing children by hand. I have a hard time believing he would take part in this if actually put to it but maybe I'm being too generous and assuming he's unserious rather than malicious.

I started the video against Dawkins thinking he was copping out. At about 37:54, I now see his point.

I wonder what Craig would do if he is suddenly teleported into a Canaanite home just as an Israelite soldier, sword in hand, bursts into a room where three Canaanite children are sleeping peacefully. Would he really stand aside and tell the soldier, "Son, your doing God's work. Carry on."

@linusloth4145

Ай бұрын

Do you think the Allies were justified in killing hundreds of thousands of civilians by firebombing German and Japanese cities including women and children non-combatants in it?

@allanhernandez6692

Ай бұрын

"What a blessing you're bringing to this child!"

@rizdekd3912

Ай бұрын

Saved him from being sacrificed to the gods.

@antenehbewnet973

Ай бұрын

he said they didn't have to die

@jeffwoodcock6702

Ай бұрын

The psycholigical toll exacted on the Israeli soliders is something to be concerned about... in a similar manner that H. Himmler & Co. were troubled by the negative effects upon the Einsatzgruppen in the course of their repeated murders of thousands of men, women & children in cold blood during WWII. Poor guys. Some became drunks over this.

36:37 - So Craig is affirming that we intuitively understand that killing children is wrong, because it is a reflection of God's nature, but God can issue commands to the contrary, which is to say, he can command things that go against his nature. Got it.

What verse is Craig using to derive his statement. "That God gave the enemies of Israel a choice, that is; Either stay and be slaughtered. Or that they can leave the land and be saved." Because I am not seeing it as I read the Scriptures. Can anyone please help me with this question?