Learn more about the priority 600x and order yours here: bit.ly/3obBJw1

You forgot the 3rd choice for people who hate derailleurs: Single Speed! 😂

@stephenking2869

Жыл бұрын

Preeeeeaaaaach!

@fiatfixie4344

Жыл бұрын

Or non-eagle drive trains that have an 11-42 cassette and a pulley cage that doesn't drag on the ground.

@notpablo8369

Жыл бұрын

You forgot the 4ty choice for people who hate chains: unicycle 🤪

@thomashelander6753

Жыл бұрын

Great explanation Steve. I think I like derailleur's too. But in the late 70's, I had aqua blue single speed mongoose, alloy rims and coaster brakes! That bike was great on or off the street. Single speed, 8 speed, 12 speed, or 24 speed, I'm happy. As long as it can move!

@shaunroach7829

Жыл бұрын

Steve what a excellent breakdown and explanation on the Pinion gearbox!!! Really enjoyed this, very informative!!! Always fun learning new things/ tech regarding bikes!!! Great job once again looking forward to that bike review!!! 👍👍

Hands down the most thoughtful and articulate review of the Pinion gear out there. Thank you.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for the kind words.

Great overview! Totally agree with your discussion of the pros and cons. I've had this bike for six months and use it for bikepacking/touring, gravel and trail riding, and commuting. Feels solid, predictable, and low maintenance. I kind of like the slight vibratory purr of certain gears and it's already smoothed out quite a bit over 1,000 miles. The gap between gears takes some getting used to; I still sometimes find myself spinning out right before a sudden climb because I've dumped one too many gears, but whatever, that's user error. I would not use a gearbox for racing and I don't do technical mountain biking. I love this bike so far I think I'll keep it forever (unless I trade up to a fancier version)...but I do find myself thinking I could _also_ use a lighter gravel bike with derailleur if I want to keep up with friends.

I have a Shimano SG-S7001-8 on my pub bike. I don't do a lot of hard single track with this bike, but I do put a lot of miles on this bike. Its the bike I take camping which means a wide variety of riding. Everything from single track to getting groceries. The lack of maintenance and reliability means a lot for this application.

I am a Pinion convert, I have a Viral Bike Derive by Steve Domahidy. It is a Pinion C12 belt drive. I have now ridden it from the bottom of Australia to the top plus a lot more. For bikepacking it is perfect. I get to camp after probably 8-10 hrs on the bike , I get my gear off the bike , put a plastic bag over my Brooks saddle(when its raining), that's all I do to my bike until next day when I get back on it. Repeat for 6 mths, with an occasional wash. I have dropped the oil once , that was very easy and no fuss. I have gone through a couple of sets of cables. But that was an issue with grip shift, make sure the spare cable clamp( it sits inside the grip shifter) screws are all the way down, the cable goes over the top of it, and it rubs. Took me 2 sets of cables to work that out. Also had to change my front and back sprocket after about 7000kms which also meant I changed the belt, I did have alloy and now have stainless steel so I should get a lot more km's out of them. Good review Roger

@scotthanback4530

8 күн бұрын

Keep enjoying life I'm starting to get on my bike more get in shape

Great review! One thing that kind of annoys me when it comes to the discussion about shifting under load. If you shift with a regular derailleur under load you risk snapping the chain and always get some really crunchy sounds.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Chains have gotten so good. I haven't broken a chain in over 5 years, even when shifting under load.

So much knowledge dropped! Gear boxes are definitely interesting and I might be willing to buy a bike with one but would need to test it first. That isn't easy, though, because I don't know of any lbs that stock then

Excellent discussion of the pros and cons. Very thorough and balanced. One item I did feel that was left out was how GB/Belts handle extreme conditions, mud etc. and that the subsequent maintenance is a simple hosing off the drive system. That, and preserving resources by not replacing components with any frequency. Working as a mechanic, I throw away dozens of cassettes and chains a week. Another disadvantage which you hit on is the inability to change anything but overall gearing. The Priority's 600X's mission is definitely not that of a performance MTB. But what it is built for, I imagine it does well. I purchased one, just arrived today and am looking forward to exploring it. My current experience is with a Trek District 4 (Shimano 8 spd Alfine/belt) and a Rodriguez tandem with a Rohloff/chain. I don't think I'd ever go back to a derailleur on the Tandem. I have a very nice 27.5 MTB with a 1X drive that is perfect for what it does best. I do wish the hanger wasn't so vulnerable, but that what alignment tools are for. Thanks for all you do!

E-gearbox. I think that's what I'm waiting for. The added weight and drag should be less noticeable.

Touring, trekking, commuting and bike packing-you're spot on here.

I have never ridden one, but I can see another plus for winter riding/commuting is no chain to rust if you have a belt drive, and no deraileur pivots to seize in cold weather.

Thanks again for another awesome video about this bike/drivetrain. I've noticed alot of these details your mentioning here. To me this bike shines the most when it's loaded down for a long haul.

Love this review, I’ve been curious for a long time about pinion. I don’t think I can get over the comments on sluggishness, this review has saved me a ton of research and obsession. Thanks!

I appreciate your insight on this, very informative review. I've been fascinated by the Pinion gearbox for a while now. One of the bikes I ride is a Larry Vs. Harry Bullitt cargo bike with a hub motor assist. Here in Seattle an enclosed gearbox like the Pinion would be a great addition to the Bullitt because our rainy weather is tough on traditional drivetrains. I think that the hub motor would easily overcome the extra drag from the gearbox and one of the bonuses of a hub motor is that it reduces load on the chain/belt when power is applied, as opposed to mid drive systems (like Bosch) that INCREASE drivetrain load when they apply power.

I really have been considering changing to a Pinion for a while as I have this awful habit of crashing on my right side. Having something hanging off the right side is getting a bit annoying. (I could just get good and stop falling over, but who'd do such a silly thing) So this video has been very informing about the cons of it (the pros are generally well known already)

Very good Steve. Thanks.

Great video thanks. I have a Sonder Signal Ti with a pinion and am loving it. There are drawbacks, there is a break in period but the range is amazing and gives you a really versatile (minus racing) bike that can climb up some really steep stuff and still have a useful high gear. Definitely still feeling some drag and noticed it on a multi day ride with friends. I’d love a belt drive but crucially this requires a frame splitter to be built in. I think the onyx vesper hub would mitigate a good deal of the engagement issue but yes the engagement in the pinion would still be poor … they did it for reliability, fixed gear hubs are not recommended for the same reasons. As for weight yes you are turning over all the gears when pedalling but you are not spinning a cassette when pedalling so not convinced there is much difference there Thanks again for the detailed review!

I think I am going to buy one of these bikes. I really want to start bike packing and it's all because of you and Ryan Van Duzer. Thanks for the great review.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear it. Bikepacking is so much fun. Review coming soon.

My gravel bike has an e*thirteen 9-46t, 11-speed cassette with a 511% range. All of the gaps are between 17% - 21% except for one. It's fine if you are willing to ride the speed the gear gives. It wouldn't be ideal in a road race unless you have really strong legs. But... A Shimano 10-51 12-speed cassette has 11 "steps" between gears. Six of those steps are more than 17% on a cassette that has a 511% of range. The Pinion has consistent steps across a 600% range. So you'll have to deal with some larger gaps with any wide-range 1x setups. I would prefer to see larger gaps at the lower end of the range and tighter gaps with the taller gears where you are pushing bigger gear inches (more resistance). My legs feel the 17% increase on 100 gear inches a lot more than 17% on 20 gear inches.

Love your pro and cons list, and totally agree. I brought myself a Nicolai Argon GAM with 12 Speed Pinion as a do-it-all bike. I'd love to ride tours, go bikepacking, do my groceries and after that bang a few laps at the Bikepark or go to a trail, in summer and winter. A reliable and maintenance free drivetrain is a game changer for me. I don't do races and just ride for my own pleasure. I tried the Pinion only a few months ago, and it was love at first try. Just a small detail is missing: the 18 speed Pinion has any 11% jumps between gears and has a 638% range.

So, as far as I know having a bike as a car substitute is often rare and unpractical in the US. However in Germany and many other European countries it is rather common, so one thing you might have missed is the utility factor of a gearbox bike. It would be perfect as a shopping bike for example where you just don't care about performance whatsoever but rather longevity and low maintenance. For me it would be a great +1 bike for shopping trips and maybe some more relaxed grouprides at low speeds. I don't mind putting in the work to get the most out of my Gravel or Mountain bike but when it comes to a shopping bike I just want it to work without any hassle cause I wouldn't get much return on my time and effort investment for maintenance anyway.

@cjohnson3836

Жыл бұрын

This isn't a channel about bike commuting

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I agree, that'd be a great choice for a gearbox. I'd argue that something like a nexxus hub would do what most commuters need at a much lower pricepoint.

@CaptainShiny5000

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty True, and that's likely what I'd get. I usually (probably wrongly) don't differentiate that much between the two options because for me the efficiency loss of the planetary gearing is my main complaint and both options have that in common, so that excludes these for mountain biking or even long range commuting for me. Btw, the Shimano Nexus does offer a trigger shifter which shifts quite nicely.

I wonder if Priority would substitute a Pinion P-18 for the C-12. The 18 speeds are spaced closer, which would assuage your need for closer gear ratios. the downside would be the increase in weight and price.

@256shadesofgrey

Жыл бұрын

Last I checked, P18 and C12 were about the same price. There is also a P12 that is cheaper, with the same gearing as the C12, but heavier. With the C series you're basically paying for reduced weight.

@azamwaugh

Жыл бұрын

@@256shadesofgreydo you have links for pricing of the C-line versus P-line? I’ve found that the C-line is considerably cheaper even than the P1.12

Thanks for the info on tech I didn’t know existed for mtb

I have tried hub gearbox, the Shimano Nexus and I really think I should get my next bike with it. Total silent is very attractive for me and the hub does all the gear changing inside. No messy oil or chain lube for me. I can wear trousers and have fun riding without worrying about getting oil on my trousers. Just a good every day bike in my opinion. Just not sure about the grease packing. It is something that only specialize mechanic can do. No more user maintenance for me. I totally agree that the gearbox will not win races now, still the ease of use is just so nice. Thank you for such a nice review.

Yes I rode a Rohloffe hub 40th kms on my surly Moonlander it blew up , screws came loose , leaked oil , worked great got a good deal on a replacement, I would try a pinion if I could get ride of all my other bikes , but Titanium only

A. I have the Priority 600 (non-X) since I'm a year round commuter. Great work horse in all Midwest weather conditions. B. You didn't miss anything in your review. And THANK YOU for not getting hung up on the weight like a lot of people do. The disadvantages you point out which are near deal breakers for you are very valid. Gear boxes are definitely not made for performance. But I hope that will eventually change, like you mention. C. My other bike is a Priority Apollo 11 which has an Alfine 11 IGH and belt drive as well. Great on the road and gravel. I would more likely get into bike packing rather than want a technical, snappy mtb for trails, so the Priority 600X would definitely fill out my quiver if I wanted to. I'm done with chains. I love a shiny clean well functioning chain, but that's the problem - it takes so much time to keep it clean and well functioning. I just want to ride my bike when I want to ride it and not have to tack on an extra hour in the week to get things cleaned up for the next week and then repeat the same thing over and over and over. Again, kudos on your optimism for internal gearing. I'm investing in it now in hopes that it will gain more traction and one day, be a viable alternative to all but the weight weeniest of race bikes.

As a machinist I love the idea. Its max geek. As a technical/trials rider the slop is absolutely a deal breaker. I think gearboxes would pair well with ebikes. Reliable and durable shifting under load with a motor would be amazing. Ebike motor could keep the slop out by keeping the drivetrain slightly loaded. A gearbox would allow a way stronger chain and heavy duty rigid single rear cog with less unsprung rear weight.

NICE coverage of the Pinion, giving accurate pros and cons...some of the things that you mentioned I have instinctively known as I have been riding a Pinion, but have never really given myself time to think through, let alone verbalize. SIDE NOTE: There are two companies who make after-market thumb trigger shifters for the Pinion; Cinq (who may or may not still be alive), and Instinctiv (out of Amsterdam who make full sus bikes with the Pinion-[similar to Zerode, but different]). I DON'T HATE derailleurs, I do ride two bikes with derailleurs, and I have had problems with both of them. One is my full suspension trail bike, that has had alignment problems with any contact, as well as just over time of riding. The other is on my fatbike, and dragging it through the snow and hitting unseen rocks and such has also caused derailleur issues on that bike. SOLACE I have been using a Pinion 12 speed for about 2 years on my Solace (Otis Mountain) hard tail. Jeff Allott, the engineer at Solace, worked to get the pinion on a dedicated MTB for me by tilting the angle- this cheated the numbers a bit and got me a chain-stay of about 431mm, and will fit a 27.5 X 2.8 Maxxis, which is a big tire for that size. (Solace has since developed a Pinion MTB with even better geometry than my custom prototype...I would love for you to review one). WHY PINION?: I decided to go with a Pinion bike for two reasons: 1) to get rid of a derailleur (keeping all of the gearing protected from the elements and dangers of trail riding), and 2) to manage the cleaning side of maintenance....particularly the cleaning of my bike after every ride. I'm not a slob, I do take care of my bikes, but trying to keep a cassette, chain and derailleur clean and lubed when riding 4-6 days per week becomes a pain in the butt. With the Pinion and Gates belt drive, I can simply hose it down, or even skip the cleaning for a few rides with no ill affects! I like to think of it as my SS with gears...at least for the ease of cleaning it.

After spending 20+ years on 3x systems the current 1x drivetrains are already so amazing that I don't have much desire to swap over to gearbox. Bikes are about as perfect as I need them to be. Id love to demo one though. Just for fun. Maybe if it somehow gets mainstream and affordable id change my mind. For now I'm 100% happy with GX. Also I'm not giving up high engagement. A lot of my riding is uphill tech, and I'm not looking to give up the engagement.

I'm fine with gear hubs like Rohloff, Kindernay and 3x3 nine for commuting and Pinion MGU E1.12 for ebikes and cargo bikes etc. The latter is 4.1kg total weight so not the lightest either, but with electronic shifting it's a solution to the maintenance problems we get with derailleur ebike.

I remember years ago, GT bikes had their I-drive system, they basically took a 8spd inter gear hub and modified it as a gear box on their DH bikes,

Wow great video one best ive seen like to get a gearbox there going to ha e to come down on price great video

I think this would be perfect for kids or people who are not that much into cycling so they can still change gears even when not pedaling and not ruin everything, especially for e bikes

I had a Priority Continuum Onyx commuter bike with Enviolo CVT for the last few years and loved it. No maintenance, very smooth and quiet, a perfect commuter! You really can't beat belt drive and sealed transmission. I just turned 65 and retired a few months ago. I figure I have a few more good years left before my body starts to give out. Priority just put the 600X on sale ($3500 -250, so $3250, and then offered a 25% off code when ordering- $2437.50 with 4 day delivery to me! I think they're losing money on it at that price. Maybe they're clearing stock and getting ready to put electronic shifting on newer models? I'm planning on doing some off road day rides and maybe some shorter bikepacking rides. I don't think I'm cut out for the weeks at a time type rides, but we'll see. I am one of those people who has been riding and maintaining my bikes for decades, but really prefer not to have to fix anything. Back when I did a lot of MTB riding I remember how awful chain maintenance was. I don't race and I don't mind exchanging a little performance for reduced maintenance, especially not having to deal with a chain! One unmentioned advantage related to bike design with the Pinion drive is that the rear wheel doesn't have to be dished (or dished as much?) which I believe results in a stronger wheel compared to a wheel with a cassette.

I would have folks look at Ryan Van Duzer's Baja Divide bike packing video on a Priority 600X. That bike is perfect for those gnarly conditions...

I've been riding a Zerode Taniwha since 2017 and I mostly ride technical rocky trails. Some feedback. The issue of the backlash in the gearbox is a bit different to a rear hub. Since the back wheel is turning, with the rear hub freewheel it always has to catch up to the wheel when you start a pedal stroke so you feel the backlash. For the Pinion, if you don't turn the pedals backwards, the pawls in the gearbox stay engages since the rear wheel doesn't back drive the gearbox, so you don't feel it. If you do back pedal, the gap is massive. I figured it is something like 13 POE but I think this changes a bit depending on what gear you are in. From my experience you can adjust your riding in the majority of technical instances that you don't need to back pedal, so it is similar to getting use to how to shift the gearbox, you adjust your technique to suit. For shifting, until you are use to it you are likely to miss some down shifts on climbs, but with time, it is mostly a non-issue. The nice thing when you make a shift on a climb you can immediately go to 100% power after the half second pause to make the shift and you don't have to baby like you do with a derailleur. I don't think the weight is really that big of an issue for most riders. Pros and cons. A bit heavier, but also less unsprung weight and more centralized. Also, by having a fixed chainline and fixed gears, the rear suspension geometry can be designed with no compromise unlike a 1x12 or even worse a 2x drivetrain. This is rarely talked about but I think it is a big benefit if the frame designer takes advantage of it. A non-issue on a hardtail though. I think the biggest downside is the drag. There are a number of seals which all add drag, and also all the gears are always spinning. What makes this even worse is that when you are in the higher gears, the idling low speed gears are rotating faster than the gears being used and I think this compounds the fact that you have less mechanical advantage compared to when you are in a lower gear. So if you are riding slower techy trails it isn't too bad, but as you speed up, it becomes more noticeable, and as Steve said, you notice over a longer ride. In terms of reliability, sure it means you don't rip off derailleurs and it is easier on the chain and sprockets, but mine hasn't been bullet proof. I had to replace the front sprocket, not because of wear but because the sprocket was cracking and fatiguing. They have a newer sprocket design that is hopefully better. I had the shifter mechanism in the gearbox fail where the ability to shift became compromised. Pinion said they had a running change and mine was an earlier version so they updated it. I also had one of the seals start leaking oil. Pinion took care of that too. Not as bullet proof as I would have hoped. At least Pinion provides a loaner gearbox while yours is in for service since it has to back to Germany. As Steve said, it has it pros and cons, and it is not for everyone, but hopefully over time gearboxes will improve make the pros and cons balance suit more riders.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing your experience, especially with reliability. For the technical terrain I ride, I am often putting in half-ratchet pedal strokes to make it up ledges, where I would otherwise pedal strike. in those situations, I definitely notice the gear lash.

@jackpittens796

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty If the only way to make a feature is to ratchet, that definitely exposes a weakness of the Pinion. Where a ratchet is habit, but there are other ways, you can learn to work around the issue, but agreed this is not always possible. With how Pinion has designed the gear selection mechanism, basically a series of pawls for all the gears on the counter shaft with a means of deploying only the selected 2 gears, I don't think there is an easy fix for this issue without a complete rethink of how the gear selection is done.

I am hung up on the lack of trigger shift, but I like your possible description of a very small ring to grab instead of such a large portion of the grip. There was a DH bike shown in Pinkbike’s recent Tech Randoms with a small trigger to shift one direction on one side, the other direction trigger on the other side of the bar 🤙🏼

@BuckOllie

Жыл бұрын

Cinq made the shifters you are talking about but sadly no longer produce them anymore… I really would like a pair!

I just recently bought my second Pinion gearbox bike.

I had a Rohloff back in early 2000, made a adapter bracket for it to fit my Intense Tracer with disc brakes. It was sooo heavy and made the suspension suck. I think I was the second person in the USA to have one. Sloan of Sloan Bike Shop was the first. Didn't have it for too long before I sold it. It would be great for a touring bike but for a performance mtb, no.

Great video! I noticed that you are using the Wren Fork again. Did they fix the topout issue?

This is so informative and surprising since I had never ridden one. The engagement, weight and inefficiency all combine to be an absolute no for me.

Thanks for the video ! Many of the drawbacks given here may be relevant for Pinion, but take a look at Effigear who took a different route : high engagement, upshifting under full load, progressive steps, trigger shifter. _Geometry - On my 29" hardtail with Effigear Mimic gearbox (same form factor as Pinion C-line), I get 435mm of chainstays and ability to run 2.4 tyre. _Engagement - gearboxes should be run with fixed hub not to sum hub lag to box lag. And lag/engagement should always be measured at crank for a given transmission ratio, because high engagement are mainly useful for trial moves that are run with low ratio, so when the high engagement of the hub is finally less high at crank level. _Shifting - For technical climbing I find my gearbox more convenient than a dérailleur because there is no room needed to shift, so no need to anticipate, no need to run high rpm "just in case of/in preparation for climb". With a dérailleur you need three quarters of a rear wheel turn (i.e. chain engagement on cassette) to complete shifting, for a 29" wheel that means ~2m of space before being able to put full power down the cranks. I suspect that a new rider, not accommodated to dérailleur, would be more objective about advantages of each system. :) _Drag - I cannot contradict, this is real. On mine this is less noticeable at low speed (climbing hard), much more when trying to keep speed on flatter terrain.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I'd love to put some time on an effigear. People seem to either love them or hate them.

Excellent video. I was very hyped and decided to buy pinion as quickly as possible. After watching this, I am not so sure anymore. By the time I am writing this, there already is trigger shifter which solved 2 issues - shifting under load and wrist shifter. But I still have worries about that engagement and I am also little concerned about efficiency. I knew its less efficient but you claim is significantly worse than old systems which doesnt sound very good. I hope they somehow manage to solve these issues.

@hardtailparty

2 ай бұрын

Ill have a video on the smart shift soon on my new channel, big brain party. You'll want to watch it.

@pedrosanciny6345

2 ай бұрын

@@hardtailparty Thank you for info, I am looking forward to watch your video.

debating one of these for a commuter bike

I'd like to try a gearbox simply for the experience of something new. Around town stuff seems like the perfect fit today. Think of all those red city rental bikes. Those. Are they even geared?

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

A lot of city rental bikes have internally geared hubs.

You said the only options for belt drive were Pinion and Rohloff. Don’t forget Alfine/Nexxus, which are a lot cheaper than either. (A downside is their narrower range, which might make them unsuitable for mountain bikes.)

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Great point. I was mainly talking for MTB use since that's our focus here, but I'd love to do some more experimenting with Alfine/Nexxus.

I’m all about paying more for something that is more reliable and has less maintenance. This with a belt drive on a titanium frame would be my dream bike. The slight efficiency loss just means a better workout.

I would be happy with one that concentrated on the lower gear range and had 10% jumps. I don’t have the lungs to push that extra weight at 100 gear inches, esp with a load and knobbies.

One of the engineers I work with is interested in gearboxes, but he isn't a fan of the slop in the engagement. He seems to be under the impression that the gears are durable, but they aren't finely machined, and that there are a lot of opportunities to improve there.

I think another area of appeal is for those who ride all year and live in wetter climates. I love riding in the winter wet but I do not enjoy having to come home to clean half the trail off my derailleur and cassette. Picking soggy pine needles out of the cage and jockey wheels. Drying and re-lubing, all while it's still pouring down. A gearbox with a belt looks like it would just be a quick hose down.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

great point!

@quesoner34

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm going with that one! Here in Germany, Winter is just disgustingly abrading on derailer gears. Hence, I put my bikes on single speed from October to March or thereabouts. (I am an all year- commuter and bikepacker.) In regards to retro-fittable options, I suppose the Kindernay hub with swappable flanges wins by far.

LOVE my Pinion C.12. Lifelong cyclist, and have ridden mountain bikes since the mid 80's. I've been a mechanic since the late 70's and build my own wheels, so am not mystified by derailleurs. That said, I generally dislike derailleurs for a number of reasons (exposure to damage, tendency to get dirty easily - even with a waxed chain -, degradation of shifting performance with trail dust or grime, etc) I ride fully rigid 29+ (2.8), and my most recent bike prior to my Pinion-equipped bike was a ti Vassago Mooseknuckle with XTR 1x12. As good as the XTR is, I found its performance to decline over the course of a 1-2+ hour ride, and I found myself getting frustrated with the noticeable impact of trail dust in the derailleur pulleys and pivots. I had used IGH's with my commuting bikes some years back, and fell in love with the simple, clean drivetrain (in any weather), and found it very easy to adjust my pedaling/shifting dynamic. I do not feel any difference in "performance" between the Pinion and derailleurs - bear in mind that 1x12 efficiency is not linear - it is only super efficient when the chain is running in the center of the cassette, decreasing as the chain angle increases (towards either end of the cassette). I also don't race, so I'm not after PR's and KOM's (even though I've broken many PR's with the Pinion-equipped bike). I don't feel much difference between gears when compared to the 1x12 setup - not enough to be bothered by it. I ride in Santa Fe, and absolutely love the Pinion. The only downside is that people assume I am on an e-bike My next step will be a custom ti frame designed around the Pinion, with a focus on fun Green/Blue/light black singletrack. Keep up the great work! I love your channel.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing your experience Canyoneagle, I appreciate it.

I would love to see you do a review of Sram transmission.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Me too. Hopefully one day. Sadly, I'd be lucky if that video generated $100. I need to find a bike that already has it on it and try that out.

I believe it is really easy to creare a simple and reliable removable gearbox like bafang bbshd middrive e motor. And we will be able to swap it on each bike we want. But the bike industry is pushhing us to spend more and more money for nothing. I quit motorcycles because i was fed up with chain maintainance, oil changes and so on, but bike undustry is making things even harded. And i hate derailiours. I hate them so much that i have learnen to adjust and maintain then perfectly :)

Your assessment and in depth review of this is spot on. This type of "transmission" is perfect for touring or long range bikepacking. Ryan Van Duzer has proven this with his epic rides. If I were to get a bike with a gearbox, it would be for touring, but it would have the belt drive. The advantage of the belt, longevity and no need to lube or carry lube. If it starts squeaking, a rinse with water cures it.

Hope this is the future watch people ride with them I mean nigth and day maybe salsa trek canyon them bikes will invest in that hope it the new thing

I know this is HT only but what are your thoughts about the Instinctiv bike M model full suspension that’s coming with the gearbox?

I'm all for gearboxes after this.

This future you can see on Nicolai Bicycles since 20 years.

I discovered this gearbox system last year, and i want a Z... one , so i started to save money ... luckily it was soooo expensive that i had a lot of time to change my mind :D :D originally i wanted to get rid of the chain , i have no problem with the derailleur , the chain its a real nightmare , it require a lot of maintenance , and if not maintained wears of quickly .... now i waiting my Commencal Tempo witch i just ordered , and the funny (not funny) thing is that just the gearbox and the Z frame cost as much as a whole equipped Commencal ...

I know where you live there is no rain, and therefore no mud. I think a gearbox can be more efficient after a couple of miles in the mud compared with a derailleur setup.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I do currently live in the desert, but I've ridden in 26 different states. Are you getting your derailleur and chain packed with mud regularly when you ride? I've never had enough mud on my drivetrain to noticeably affect efficiency. I think it'd be interesting for someone to actually measure the efficiency. The feel of thick steel cogs rotating with every pedal is noticeably.

Given the gearbox's disadvantages when it comes to climbing but their advantages when it comes to rear suspension efficiency and robustness, I think Alee from Cyclingabout pointed out how they could work really well for downhill/gravity MTB riding. Even if that's not how you ride, after trying one do you see that potential, too?

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I don't completely agree on that front. The lower unsprung mass is wonderful (I talk about that here), but I think there's a reason why 99% of Enduro and DH racers aren't using gearboxes, and it's not because there's a conspiracy. :) It's because there isn't enough of a performance advantage for elite racers.

@friarsky

Жыл бұрын

What about folks riding park who aren't racing? Agreed that if gearboxes provided a major advantage we'd see them grabbing podiums. But for the regular MTBer who just likes to smash out laps at their local bike park, it seems like the robustness of the system/less maintenance could be an advantage.

So when I shift under load? I should ratch my pedal motion.

I ebike only and I prefer any mid-drive direct-drive than any alternatives I'm aware of to date. I also like electronic shifting. Both Pinion and Rohloff are very good options, but I truly wish most of the well-known European e-bikes gave you an option of either system, cough Riese & Müller!

@DJaquithFL

Ай бұрын

.. I should add that I'm 60 years old and I've had significant injuries to my right angle. However, I generally use either PAS 1 or 2, and I'm not looking for a motorcycle or moped substitute. It's either that or not get on a bike. Anyway I forgot to mention, excellent video and thank you!

@DJaquithFL

Ай бұрын

.. as I mentioned the electronic shifting, often people forget to downshift even on an e-bike at a stop and with electronic shifting you can set it to go down to example gear 3 or 5. Whereas with a derailleur it's going to be a problem putting a lot of power to get across a busy street if you forgot to downshift ahead of time.

I think a rear hub with internal gears, and a blue tooth wireless shifter will be the future of MTB drivetrains.

I'm waiting for the Shimano Alfine vs Roleohff price drop to come to the Gearboxs.

I would love to try a gear box but would not buy a bike with one because it’s so different than my derailleur setup. Question - how does it work in muddy conditions? Will it get jacked up similar to a derailleur? Thanks for your deep analysis

@pedrosanciny6345

2 ай бұрын

Thats actually one of the Pinion biggest advantages, it seems to work great in muddy conditions.

I would be interested in seeing a direct comparison between the pinion box vs an in hub system such as the Rohloff. I get the Rohloff is expensive but then I don't think it is that much different than getting a pinion setup when you boil it all down.

@tempest1080

Жыл бұрын

The Rohloff is a lot of weight on your rear wheel, so centering the weight with the Pinion is preferable for control and placing the bike on rough stuff.

@KillingTimewithStyle

Жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iZOc2paPadC_pdo.html

@azamwaugh

Жыл бұрын

The CyclingAbout KZread channel has a really thorough breakdown of Rohloff versus Pinion

I think backlash is a better term for the distance before a hub engages than slop. Sorry to be nit-picky, but the word slop just makes me picture something else

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Agreed, backlash is a better term. Slop is more what it feels like when riding it, but backlash is the proper technical term. I'll try to use that more.

Great review! Although I think your style of riding isn’t advantageous enough to warrant a gearbox on your bike. Gearbox’s (aka Transmissions) have been around for the same amount of time as a derailleur. Although Gearbox technology is more widely used and tested. They were invented within a year of each other. I think gearbox’s are better suited for more “technical” riding, I’m not sure how many people realize how technical riding with 60lbs of gear makes the average trail or why when climbing 12k feet of varied terrain a 607% gear ratio is more suitable than smaller steps or a closer cadence. Although for the average fair weather rider going out in perfect conditions for a 10 mile ride a derailleur works amazing. Also Cinq makes both paddle and thumb shifters for pinion and Electronic shifting will be available by end of summer. Gearboxes also take about 10k miles to break in(in my opinion), which for some is only about a year of riding and others is a lot longer. It’s also important to note that Gearboxes are way more efficient when dirty than a derailleur and chain. If you ride in weather that isn’t always perfect than a gearbox with belt is going to be a better option, especially if your riding takes you far from home. I also like gearboxes for newer riders even if the upfront cost is alittle more the ease of maintenance and lack of new riders properly maintaining the bikes makes the combo suitable and long term cost significantly less.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Have they been able to quantify the efficiency between a gearbox and a dirty drivetrain?

@ian_pedalz

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty see this is where it gets interesting. It would all be subjective on a bench test because different environments change performance. So in dry desert environments the only con of the belt is it can squeak a bit so it requires periodic silicon lube but I don’t notice any resistance in comparison with a chain which only loses efficiency (IMO) after 50 or so miles. In mud I notice a huge lose with a chain and in really cold wet conditions a chain seems to require more up keep than a belt. This is really only in really wet conditions or conditions that or exacerbated by time in the field. So much depends on the type of “dirt” if that makes sense. Ahh snow also I find the belt works great but my derailleurs I’ve had freeze up on me or become clogged, especially if I’m on a flat section and keep a steady cadence. I think for the fair weather rider tho, a chain is proven and efficient (when maintained properly). A lot of human error occurs tho with chains, so many people don’t maintain their bikes well, or use lubes that are actually inefficient like a muc-off for example. I think if I was riding where you were, I would run a chain/derailleur unless it was an overnighter that took be over 50 miles from civilization. I love all things bikes so I can’t say one is better than the other but every tool has its purpose.

@BuckOllie

Жыл бұрын

Cinq have stopped selling the thumb shifters, it’s a real shame as they worked quite well.

@ian_pedalz

Жыл бұрын

@@BuckOllie I was told by a distributor they will be available soon but through a manufacturer in a group set with brakes similar to how cinq and TRP have just started stocking the paddle shifters again. Hopefully this is true, I know Instinctiv bike uses their own thumb shifters I wonder how much they would sell them for. It also appears the E shifting they will be offering soon, will only be available in thumb shifting. I’ll keep my fingers crossed, I’m a fan of the innovation with gearboxes!

@BuckOllie

Жыл бұрын

@@ian_pedalz Thanks for the update, sounds like you got a much more helpful response from Cinq. Hope they can bring it to market soon!

Does the gearbox hang lower than a traditional BB? Need caution for rock/root strikes?

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

That depends on the frame design. The "chainring" is smaller, so you're less likely to bash it on rocks.

My main concern with gearboxes is that the frame is built to fit a specific gearbox. If the gearbox is damaged and needs replacement you’re relying on the manufacturer still using the same gearbox case. If the manufacturer is no longer in business you’re probably up for a new frame and gearbox. I’ve seen gearboxes used in DH racing and think that plays to many of the gearbox strengths, removing the derailleur and shifting without pedaling.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

the good news is that effigear and pinion use the same mounting system, so they're interchangeable on frames.

I hope so. It's going to be pricey tho

17% steps too big? I remember the old Sturmey Archer 3 speed, you often ended up wanting to change up, but if you did you couldn't sustain the higher gear. In fairness it was very light and quite efficient, the most commonly used gear was a "lock through" that didn't involve a step up or step down, so there was no power loss.

Is the wren fork review coming soon?

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

yes

with all the gear-lash just feel like the best use for gearboxes is grinding coffee not trails.

My Rohloff has cost me about £1.00 per week over 15 years. It is more efficient than the Pinion and has been on at least four bikes.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Sad to see he recently died. I've never owned a rohloff, but I'm fascinated by them.

@johnlesoudeur3653

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty Yes I was saddened by his death but he left one heck of a legacy. Kindernay looked promising but it seems that they have stopped production of both the 7 and 14 speed gearbox rear hubs. Your video was the best that I have watched on the pros and cons of the Pinion in particular and gearboxes for bikes in general. The Rohloff does have quicker engagement than the Pinion but has a quirk in 7th gear that can put you in top gear if changed too quickly. It still catches me out occasionally. I use a Shimano 11 speed rear hub on my gravel bike.

@hardtailparty is that Ryan Van Duzer's bike?

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

It's not his personal bike, but it's the same model he rides.

They don't make internal hubs? 15 × 148 boost. 15 × 142. Or 15 ×148 by 9 mm quick release.

The Pinion gearbox is great... for now. What's going to happen in 5 years when the technology advances? The gearbox and bike frame are shaped to fit each other. In the future, when Pinion makes a new gearbox, you'd have to retrofit it to your frame. The Pinion gearbox isn't future proofed like the proven chain, chainring, cogs, and derailleurs.

needs a chaincase. or a beltcase

Gearboxes need to follow the mounting form factor of ebike motors Shimano,Bosch,Yamaha etc. It would open up some possibilities for bike mfrs

Great review Steve! I see this kind of gearboxes stuck in a very niche market, very difficult to get this technology going with it's current userbase. A lot of the advantages are geared for new riders but they are not going to spend that kind of money on a bike. I see the attractive for bike packers but it still is a niche market because you want bike packers who would spend this kind of money on a bike like this, most of them would invest on a more rugged bike with easy to service derailleurs instead of using a gearbox. Then you have the high end bikers who will never buy something like this due to the weight, efficiency and engagement. I would like to see this technology improve, but the cons are so big that it will be really difficult to get companies investing on this, specially with how good derailleurs are becoming. The new eagle transmission has almost no cons besides price, amazingly durable, shifts better under load and gets you all the benefits from modern frames. Hard competition and this technology gets cheaper by the day.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I haven't ridden transmission yet, but I'd love to try it out someday.

@Calfa2x

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty I think Sram did a great job on it, it's ebike ready so the design is expected to handle the higher torque on ebikes plus a lot of abuse. MTBs get the benefits of that ruggedness for ebikes, no more b tension or high and low screws, ultra easy set up and electronic shifting is a dream. AXS was good but transmission is another level, taking out that pesky hanger while having very affordable replacement parts for the break outs on the transmission at a about 20 bucks in case something goes wrong.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

Have you had a chance to ride one yet? I love the concept on paper, I just wonder what it feels like. I've heard good things.

@Calfa2x

Жыл бұрын

@@hardtailparty I'm still building the new DV9 that will go with it but I have used AXS since it came out, I really like electronic shifting and from what I've heard, eagle transmission is better than AXS in several different ways.

@Calfa2x

11 ай бұрын

@@hardtailparty I just completed the build Steve, the shifting under load is amazing and really changes how you ride. I heard the comparison on how you drive a manual car vs an automatic with paddle shifters and is pretty accurate. You no longer have to give any buffer while changing gears and you can shift cleanly even at max power without problems. I'm still getting used to remove that buffer before shifting, say goodbye to getting stuck on a hard gear while climbing. Maybe you can try it out now that the cheaper GX version was announced.

Gearboxes are the future for electric bikes, currently eMTB smash through derailleurs and chains like crazy, the new valeo+effigear and pinion electric motor + gearbox will win on high end, and it will be democratized when bosh/yamaha/brose follow them. It will bring tons of engineering time to gearbox, because the money is in ebikes, and gearbox will improve a lot. Also people will expect gearbox on non electric bikes too.

Hey Fellow Bike Nerd, I’d ride it

Run it fixie in the back... :) Anyone make a fixie hub with a disc brake? :)

I'm considering a gearbox because I hate 12 speed. It is a step backwards from 11 speed that shifted perfectly. I have several bikes. One is a 3x9, one is a 1x11 and the other is a 1x12. Out of all of them the worst shifting bike is the 12 speed. The 3x9 is running old XTR from 14 years ago, shifts beautifully but it's noisy going down hill. The 11 speed is Sram XO and shifts the best out of the three bikes, never hear any crunching or clicking, it's the best I have ever had. The third is 12 speed XT and that is a dog for jumping, skipping, crunching, delayed shifting and over all poor performance. I can set a derailleur up no problem, been working on my own bikes and gears for 35 years. 12 speed is just a poor system. 11 speed all day!

@hardtailparty

Ай бұрын

The good news is that 11 speed is cheap and still very available

Gearbox’s will only become a thing if we have the courage to believe in them. Which translates to if we see the pros ride em we will follow.

Not only are all gears spinning...it is spinning in oil, the friction is what you are feeling...

@hardtailparty

2 ай бұрын

Great point!

This is not the application for the pinion system, an e-bike is because people are will to spend the money. Also, they’re already electrics on board so the shifting gap is irrelevant with an e-bike.

I'm with you, I love the idea, but the execution needs work for the every-day mountain-biker

Meh, the durability had me curious but the added complexity incase of failure puts me off Wouldn't mind to see a review for Priority's The Sauce, that bike looks like a hella fun! 🤞

Add an e-motor with this gearbox bike is a motorcycle

Weight and cost then a go

Anybody old enough to remember Truvativ Hammerschmidt?

@scottyh72

9 ай бұрын

Especially how bad it was? Gears will never reach the efficiency of a chain system.

Gearboxes and hub gears need to be way more mainstream than they are right now. Everything from cars to watches keep their complex finnicky mechanical stuff in a sealed protected shell filled with lubricant, why shouldn't bicycles?

That was an excellent review. Inefficient, heavy, and expensive. In my opinion, extolling the virtues of a Pinion gearbox is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Planetary gears are the future! Engineer a compact transmission and you will be the next innovator in bicycles.

I think all downhill bikes should use gearboxes or be singlespeed.

@hardtailparty

Жыл бұрын

I think if there were enough performance advantages, we'd definitely see DH bikes running that setup. Their cassettes and derailleurs are tiny, so they're unsprung weight is relatively low compared to the rest of us with 52t pie plates on the back.

Unsprung weight is a huge deal... ask any motorcycle road racer