Schliemann's recklessness is one of the reasons so much is still up in the air, what a waste.

@takashitamagawa5881

27 күн бұрын

It's understood now that even moving something at an archaeological site is an act of destruction, as doing so takes it out of its historical context. That is not even close to the actual physical destruction that Schliemann committed with his crude methods. Artifacts discovered in modern digs may have to be moved, whether for preservation or further analysis, but meticulous record keeping is vital.

@Azaghal1988

27 күн бұрын

schliemann is definitely one of the archeologists of that ageI kinda hate for their actions because they destroyed so much by disregarding everything that didn't fit their pattern of a big find, while I at the same time admire him. For his passion for the subject.

@alecity4877

27 күн бұрын

If you are ever in Athens, his tomb is in the first cemetery, very visible as it was made to resemble a classical greek temple and has a bust statue of him on the front, make sure to drink a lot of water the morning before visiting him and avoid bathrooms before your visit.

@spaceghost4474

27 күн бұрын

​@@takashitamagawa5881Calvert warned him not to excavate the site like he did, but in typical Schliemann style, he couldn't be bothered to take the time to do it right. What a loss for all time.

@cmt6997

27 күн бұрын

Schliemann gets way too much hate. Hindsight is 20/20 and we can’t judge him for the century of formalized archaeological standards and practices that have developed since his time (which he surely would have embraced if he were around today). He was a product of his time and as a gentleman scholar he was way ahead of many of his peers.

No, it's actually at the site of Yetanother Tepe, just south of Tell Nowon.

@gomahklawm4446

27 күн бұрын

We don't know for certain.

@vapormissile

27 күн бұрын

​@@gomahklawm4446ThatsthejokeTepe

@kamilb1729

27 күн бұрын

Make the video.

@mookowg

27 күн бұрын

​​@@kamilb1729 Whooosh

@spemo1

27 күн бұрын

I totally agree with you. I think Wilusa isn't in Hisarlik, but it's an attraction for tourists and many people don't want to change their view about the whole thing.

It's always so sad that a man went looking for Troy and blew it up in the process.

@ronaldderooij1774

27 күн бұрын

Maybe he was looking for fame, by means of "finding" Troy.

My theory is that Schliemann actually just wanted to finish off what Agamemnon didnt.

I always wonder about Schliemann. I mean, yes, his methods were brutal, but it was the age where "archaeologists " blew holes into pyramids. He dug an exploratory trench, which was good, kind of as it's the reason we know about the almost unbroken chain of civilisation beginning with the neolithic. What I really wonder about, as at that time, archoelogy was about tangible treasure and less about knowledge. Did he have some Turkish goldsmith fake the gold treasures he found there and in Greece, just to have something tangible to show to polite society, for all his efforts?

@Ironclad17

28 күн бұрын

Like many paleontologists and archaeologists of the era, they had very personal agendas and were more interested in proving their own worldviews or attaining fame than being empirical or objective.

@marcusott2973

28 күн бұрын

@Ironclad17 in Schliemanns case that Homer was actually historically correct, this then led to nutcases taking Plato as historically factual too and so he's collateral responsible for 1000's of crappy books and TV documentaries about Atlantis.

@LarthV

24 күн бұрын

@@marcusott2973 To be fair to Schliemann in that very respect, I am not sure if the Atlantis cult could have been avoided even if he had found nothing....

If Hisarlik isn't Troy, then you'd have to explain why classical-age Greeks clearly thought that's where it was (as they built the city of Ilion on top of it) AND more importantly, you'd have to explain what this city was that was buried on Hisarlik, because a lot of what was found by subsequent archeologists sure as hell matches Homeric descriptions of Troy. Of course, it's true that all of this could have been solved if Schleimann hadn't been so reckless. He left us mostly just the walls of the Bronze Age Troy and a few foundations of houses. But it's highly likely that he destroyed the palace and any archives that were there... and all because he thought the Troy he was looking for had to be deep in the mound.

to be completely accurate, the Iliad doesn't deal with the sacking and destruction of Troy. It ends before the death of Achilles, which takes place before the Trojan horse. Fragments of other works do, and later authors like Virgil in his Aeneid

@thedripkingofangmar6778

27 күн бұрын

What's the point of writing such a comment? Everyone that follows this channel knows that

@iainmc9859

27 күн бұрын

@@thedripkingofangmar6778 Hey, most people who follow this channel will probably know that ... but people who have just watched movies may not, its worth point it out. Sounds like a case of Hubris on your part.

@MWbluestar

24 күн бұрын

​@@thedripkingofangmar6778 I appreciated the comment, dick.

I think there are more reasons to doubt Hisarlık, was Troy. For instance, while we have found walls at the citadel, we never found even a hint of a city wall. That only doesn't work with Homer's source material, it also makes a long siege of the city impossible. Even a long siege at the citadel is impossible since a harbor city can ship in food but you can easily surround a land based citadel. They could hold out for a few months but I doubt they would had more food stored then for 6 months and that is if they refused shelter for civilians. I did read Cline's book on the subject, he at least claims there are pretty good evidence for Troy 7A to have been ended by a massive earth quake and unless the reference of the Troyan horse is a strange kenning (Horses were associated with Poseidon, God of the sea and earthquakes), that doesn't really fit either. But I don't think Homer made the entire thing up either, because a lot of his descriptions do seem to be from the bronze age even if he adds in things from his time like how warriors used chariots for instance. So while I can't say for certain that we have the wrong place, that is a clear possibility. But there are also things that do fit, like the period it was around and that Greeks moved in after 7A was destroyed. I think someone really need to go through those piles of the 19th century excavation. We also do have the possibility that Homer mashed several stories together and did not use a single event at a single city as his inspiration. There are hints in his story to back that up, some of the Greeks use gear and fights in a way that are several hundred years older then the others. He might have made that by mistake or on purpose to tell a more interesting story. It do also seem unlikely that the siege actually lasted for 10 years, while there are a couple of historical examples of that, I don't think either side had the logistics to feed all their people during a 10 years siege. Someone would have to ship in food to Troy for 10 years without actually sending them military aid and the Greeks could not survive on forage for 10 years and their supply lines would had been terrible. 10 months sounds more likely, Anyways, I am unsure if it is the right place or not and unless either a huge archaeological survey finds new evidence at the place or someone finds another Troy I don't think we ever will be certain.

You’re one of my favorite KZread channels. You do a fantastic job at relaying good researched information, and telling us what we do and don’t know. I absolutely love your videos on antiquity, and I’m always interested in Troy. Keep up the good work!

Mike, you are really keyed in and busy lately. I think it’s easy to disparge Schliemann, but he was a pioneer and foundational to our understanding of the city. Whilst I wouldn’t advocate his methods today, we do owe much to his spirit and pioneering work. Thanks so much for all of the videos.

@TheFallofRome

28 күн бұрын

Thank you! Had a lot going on the past few months that kept me away but I’m happy to be back at it

My prediction is somebody will claim it’s in Hungary by this time tomorrow.

@HomeRudeGirlz

28 күн бұрын

Omfg FACTS

@cmt6997

27 күн бұрын

It’s definitely in Serbia and/or North Macedonia.

@valentinaaugustina

27 күн бұрын

i have screenshots of a guy swearing it’s in macedonia and it’s so funny

@Facetiously.Esoteric

27 күн бұрын

It's in Serbia under a giant 50K year old pyramid!

@elmanco6885

27 күн бұрын

​@@cmt6997Ah yes, Tròjiča

I'm newer to your channel, but so far, I've loved the content.

Thanks for this illuminating video👍🏻.

Schliemann used the Iliad’s geographic clues to locate Troy and excavate. We can judge his methods in hindsight, but using a book people thought was strictly myth to locate the city is remarkable.

The relatively new museum at the site does a decent job trying to sort this out, although they are still quite pissed off over all the stolen goods and devote much space to saying so.

@vorynrosethorn903

27 күн бұрын

Finders keepers - sincerely, The British Museum.

@mpetersen6

25 күн бұрын

​@@vorynrosethorn903 So the Turks aren't happy about it. Just what relationship do the modern Turks have to the Bronze Age population.

@Carlton-B

25 күн бұрын

@@mpetersen6 They exterminated the descendants. That has to count for something.

@nickreid5297

24 күн бұрын

@@mpetersen6 Recent genetic studies suggest that modern citizens of Turkey owe most of their genes to the peoples who had inhabited Anatolia for thousands of years. Estimates of the specifically 'Turkic' contribution to their genes vary, but 9% is one figure which may be about right. This means that the Greek speaking Christians who inhabited Anatolia mostly converted to the Muslim faith and the Turkish culture in the centuries after the Turkish invasion. Wikipedia has a page on this at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Turkish_people#:~:text=Multiple%20studies%20have%20found%20similarities,also%20found%20Central%20Asian%20contributions.

@vorynrosethorn903

20 күн бұрын

@@nickreid5297 Yeah, but have you ever looked at one. I'm pretty sure that the Byzantine emperors did not bear any family resemblance to genghis khan, nor could the Hittites be confused with the arabs. I'm sure that like with statistics the raw numbers alone are very misleading before they get crunched.

I do not think that Iliad says anything about destruction of Troy. Iliad stops sooner.

@ecurewitz

26 күн бұрын

But the Odyssey and Aeneid both do

The fall of Troy and the fall of Jericho at the same time seems like a strange coincidence.

I had this question in my mind for a while now of how do we know the city they found was really Troy. Great video!

It is Troy, watch Michael Wood's "In search of the Trojan War".

@LyleFrancisDelp

2 күн бұрын

I was just about to make the same suggestion.

it went missing when Schliemann blew it sky high lol

@BeyondEcstasy

2 күн бұрын

"I'll make sure Homers Troy will really be lost to history!"

Speculation is so much fun, but it is critical to respect the limits the evidence permit. Thank you.

Anyone try wet-sifting the spoil heaps to see what can be found?

A tragic tale, worthy of a Greek epic!

The Schliemanns Troy does not corespondent with geographical description from poem. At poem you can find that Troy was surrounded with mountains, lake, rivers. Also tribes who were coming to help in a battle were coming on foot not by boats, not crossing Bosfor or Dardanele.

Oh boy! Here I go dynamiting again!

All I can think about when I hear "Troy" is dynamite.

I like to fantasize that there was one warrior from Troy called Des, marching out to face Achilles and declared. "I'm Des of Troy!" Then get a spear in the face. The name stuck. Now when whatever is...to be ridden off violently, it's Destroyed.

Always Excellent and elucidating to the point that despite being the curmudgeon I am, I am nonetheless left without any criticism. That’s why I am subscribed.

I don’t think Troy was attacked by Greeks at the end of the Bronze Age, it was attacked later by the Greeks, but I think the story is just a half remembered story of the Bronze Age collapse. Like they know all the kings and warriors left on ships and came back 10-20 years later. Everything else is just made up.

Those early archeologists sure loved their dynamite 🧨

You can't lose it if you never found it.

could the destruction of 7b layer be site of Trojan war?

Shout out to all my fellow Scythians!

I always wonder about the feces and sewage, where is the piles?

@chucknorris277

10 күн бұрын

Decal feliac

Everybody wants to take credit for finding the end of the rainbow.

TO STOP PEOPLE FROM SAYING FIRST

@Intelligenthumour

28 күн бұрын

First to reply to you.

@sagitarriulus9773

28 күн бұрын

Second

I think at least parts of Homer were written under the pretense of Pergamon being Troy.

Okay, so he blew stuff up - but shit, cities were sacked and people have reconstructed shattered tablets. What did Heinrich do - take the dirt he blew up and then scatter it over 20 sq km or something? Wouldn’t the busted archive be in a pile of dirt from his first bonkers excavation?

Schliemann may seem reckless to us but in 150 years will we not seem reckless as well?

@ecurewitz

26 күн бұрын

Maybe sloppy as our techniques aren’t as refined as future techniques might be

@maou8253

26 күн бұрын

Schliemann was reckless (to put it very mildly) even to his contemporaries, so no.

🗿👍

It's in Finland.

@Liliphant_

20 күн бұрын

😂

One small issue: the events of the "Trojan war" are from a Greek/Mycenaean perspective. In reality it looks like it was just a revolt of the locals because Troy was a local powerhouse and the Mycenaeans might have sent a few "volunteers" with supplies (weapons, shields, arrows, helmets and other stuff). After that the Mycenaeans could have claimed that they conquered it.

Alexander the Great discovering Achilles one of the Greek legends Sounds more like fiction than reality.. And discovering his armor would just be impossible because Because it wouldn't have existed by the time of Alexander the Great because it probably had degraded over a million..

@alexdunphy3716

27 күн бұрын

Bronze lasts basically forever since only a tiny layer of oxide forms on the surface and everything underneath is protected.

@Diogolindir

27 күн бұрын

Came to say the same thing. Bronze preserves veeery well​@@alexdunphy3716

@vorynrosethorn903

27 күн бұрын

We have the helmet of the Athenian general at marathon, a lot of this stuff lasted, the surprising thing is that someone didn't nick it before Alexander got to it.

@LarthV

24 күн бұрын

All you need to find the armour of Achilles is a medium gifted craftsman that you take care keeps his mouth shut. Oh, and the armour will miraculously even be still shiny...

@vorynrosethorn903

20 күн бұрын

@@LarthV They have found bronze swords in rivers that are still sharp.

Nah it's in NY FIIIIIRRRRRSSSSTTTTT

@VineFynn

28 күн бұрын

Nope, another got there before you

@sopwithsnoopy8779

27 күн бұрын

Just south of Palmyra, NY? 😂

I cannot understand why the put the stratigraphic archaeological levels in reverse order, ridiculous and illogical.

@Asa-bh7zi

27 күн бұрын

Because they're numbered in forward chronological order of when they were created, not the order that we see them as we dig down.

@HighWealder

27 күн бұрын

@Asa-bh7zi completely opposite to geologists and the actual order.

@WorldWokeApeCult

27 күн бұрын

@@HighWealderYeah well, you see, we don’t care what geologists think.

@Asa-bh7zi

26 күн бұрын

@@HighWealder What do you mean "the actual order?" Troy I is the first settlement at the site. Troy IV is the fourth.

Interesting. Thanks bro.

'Wilkens argues that Troy was located in England on the Gog Magog Hills in Cambridgeshire, and that the city of Ely refers to Ilium, another name for Troy. He believes that Celts living there were attacked around 1200 BC by fellow Celts from the European continent to battle over access to the tin mines in Cornwall as tin was a very important component for the production of bronze. In fact, Homer names the attackers of Troy as Achaeans, Argives and Danaans, not Greeks. ' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood Maybe that's why the location of Troy is so elusive?

@vorynrosethorn903

27 күн бұрын

Lol, we all know the true troy was in China, the survivors then founded Scotland.

@lempereurcremeux3493

26 күн бұрын

He also writes that "It also appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from western European languages, more often from Dutch rather than English, French or German." Yeah, I'm not inclined to take this Economics major's opinions too seriously.

Another good theory is that it was in Britain which makes more sense considering the tin mines there, the flat plains for the battles that occured, the fair haired people. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood

@lempereurcremeux3493

28 күн бұрын

"educated in Economics at the University of Amsterdam" "He also writes that "It also appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from western European languages, more often from Dutch rather than English, French or German." "Wilkens believes that Havana's topography greatly resembles the description of Telepylos" 10/10, good theory, would shag again after 5 pints.

@ochre379

28 күн бұрын

I would say this idea belongs up there with Graham Handcock and his asteroid, but tbh I think even he would be uncomfortable being associated with such rarified heights of stupidity.

@Ironclad17

28 күн бұрын

I think "good" is an exaggeration. His only evidence is claiming that random mountains and cliff faces are places mentioned in the Iliad. The idea that Bronze Age Greece did have contact with the British Isles and that was forgotten isn't implausible, but there is no physical evidence to back the theory let alone to claim it's the historical site of Troy.

@cliffordnelson8454

28 күн бұрын

@@lempereurcremeux3493 Much better than Turkey. That is the stupidisty theory

@cliffordnelson8454

28 күн бұрын

@@ochre379 Much better than Turkey. That is the stupidisty theory