Saw a coach feeding a girl balls and she had a horrible forehand that he never bothered to correct and kept saying: "good job". At that point, that's just babysitting

@Bensway7

2 жыл бұрын

mateee you just brain dead im sorry like nadal could come to millionair pros and tell same thing that they all terrible for one, also another attitute you dont know what forehand was before also positivity not only in tennis but in sports overall is half of the core, without positivity its like 0 chance to become pro you probably can lose 1 hand and become pro at most sports but without positivity i think impossible.

@ifeden

2 жыл бұрын

No doubt, as with any profession, many if not most, are involved for the money. That doesn’t mean that they’re not doing good work. No idea what you witnessed, but one thing to be aware of is that in any lesson, you can, at most, work on one or two things. That means, many obvious errors must be left for future correction. Unless you know what they were working on and where the kid began, it’s tough to criticize the feedback.

@stilllifeproductions5017

Жыл бұрын

I see it all the time and, quite frankly, it's the greatest disservice to the student. This girl will have this messed up stroke all her life! Oh...and if she one day, realizes how messed up it is, have fun trying to fix it!

@mattc3581

Жыл бұрын

@@stilllifeproductions5017 As the previous poster said, it kinda depends on what he is trying to fix. A young kid and perhaps a beginner you can't necessarily put a racket in their hand and immediately expect them to start hitting it like Federer. If he is starting trying to get the swing right then he might legitimately be completely ignoring other aspects of the shot. Work on the swing get that right and then worry about the timing and the racket angle and whatever else you want to focus on. I don't know what the current thoughts are on coaching at low level but I imagine introducing one change at a time is probably the way to go. In which case if she is doing the one bit he is focussing on right then saying good job is completely appropriate. I've watched a coach with a young girl and she was spraying balls all over the place, but the swing looked wonderful, the accuracy comes later, the consistency comes after that :)

Most parents sign up their kids for tennis lessons as a cheaper version of daycare. They drop off their kids so that they can run their errands efficiently. When they pick up their kids later, the kids are tired enough to have a nap when they get home after playing for a few hours.

@jesoby

Жыл бұрын

And those kids will likely never play outside of those ‘lessons’ unlike when I played for hours a week with my mates. The only younger kids I see progress are the ones that play with a keen parent.

The guy on the right is right ... if the teacher sees that the student is not applying themselves much, he is probably not going to put much more into it. At the same time, you don't want to lose that money stream.

@cks2020693

3 жыл бұрын

very true, I'm not a professional coach, but I do teach others from time to time, It's hard to put in effort to teach when the students aren't showing much desire to work hard for it. I myself went from not knowing anything about tennis to USTA 3.5 in 8 months by praciting at least 2 hours a day everyday, I have constant inflmmation and tendonitis in my wrist, elbow and deltoids, but none of it swayed me away from the desire to be better, and my coach is always excited to see me because he knows i put in 100% and always improving

I play at a David Lloyd club in the UK. All of the coaches there are good, but most people seem to let the coach come up with an hour lesson plan. It usually involves working on everything for 5 minutes until the hour is up. That's not enough to improve. I go into my lessons with my own plan, to work on specific things. A lot of coaches feel like they're just going through the motions but my coach enjoys our sessions because I'm taking responsibility for my lesson. You have to see the coach as the person working for you. You're the boss.

@aj4819

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely. I also play at David Lloyd in the UK (expensive right?!) and my coach does ask me what I want to work on and we would work on that for the majority of the lesson, which I'm happy with as I come out of it in a much improved state but I always ask a lot of technical questions throughout that I wouldn't really be able to ask anyone else and that's helpful too.

@BullyGarfield.

3 жыл бұрын

i love my coach!

@michaelobgy

3 жыл бұрын

You found a good coach in uk??? That s a good joke! Man tennis sucks in Uk 🇬🇧! No wonder there is no top pro uk player! David loyd is a bunch of thieves who try to rip u off!! Stay away!

@EmperorsNewWardrobe

Жыл бұрын

‘You’re the boss’ is a huge load of rubbish. Sometimes, yes, it’s best for the player to layout what they’d like to work on (to which the coach will consider it, rather than be bossed into it), and at other times it’s best for the coach to decide the priority, given their expert analysis. Your thinking in that phrase is black and white, and it doesn’t consider respect (firstly), negotiation, and expertise.

@mattc3581

Жыл бұрын

@@EmperorsNewWardrobe Feels like there should be some discussion. Ideally I would think a coach should be able to look at you play, assess your footwork, grip, different shots, everything, then point out where he/she thinks you are weakest and where you would get the most benefit from coaching. Now if you are adamant that you don't want to work on something in particular at that time for whatever reason then they should take that on board, but coming up with a plan between you on what you want to work on and what would help seems like a good idea. They are the pro, they should be able to advise you pretty well on what you need.

Great chat guys! There’s a saying : “ When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive” Having spent years taking lessons from various coaches, I now feel it’s my responsibility each lesson to make sure that my coach understands what I want to work on, based on how I’m doing playing the rest of the week, and then focus only on 1-2 things , and monitor progress each session.. The Art and Passion of learning is where it at!!

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Self accountability!!!

YES!!! I love this topic! Talk to these dudes. Tired of lessons being ripoffs and nobody talking about it!

@champyhalim8882

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, Pat. Can't stand those ripoff coaches!!

Disclosure: I teach full time. The best thing I heard you say in this video is that the coach needs to come up with over 50 ways to explain the same thing if the student is not correcting their behavior. I have been so frustrated at times with a student to the point of exasperation - it is a biproduct of coaching but ultimately, the coach needs to embrace the challenge or fire himself!

@tomtimor9789

Жыл бұрын

Not everyone is able to understand technicality of specific activity. Tennis, it is only a hobby activity. lets talk about driving ! This is important for functioning of our world. Way too many goofs on the road creating constantly dangerous situations. If you have someone with no talent for tennis, refuse to train him. But then... money talks, right ? So, frustration is your price for monies. Do not complain. 😄

When I started playing tennis in my 20s, a young club coach talked me into taking a series of 10 private lessons with him. I agreed but insisted on taking them at my pace. Those lessons were the best investment in my "tennis career". He showed me the beauty of the game and inspired me to eventually become a part-time coach myself.

I struggle with whether my coach is effective or not. The repetitions we get each week are invaluable, but there is definitely a lot of cookie cutter stuff happening and I push back on the old school stuff at times (like the clear the table slice). I want him to incorporate some different drills, but then I realize I'm outpacing my own skill and he's trying to get me consistent before adding more. For the record, I'd love video analysis.

This podcast with all three of you is great! It is great to see and hear hard realities of tennis versus the general techniques, tactics, strategies, and tips when it comes to tennis. Being a tennis coach since 2003 at the high school and college level, plus working at clubs, gives me joy to hear this topics, especially this one. I agree that most people that take private lessons do not put in the time after the lesson. I have expressed this with my junior players when they have come see me for lessons and asked if they applied it in a group lesson or worked on it by themselves where majority of the time they said no. Putting the fault on the coach/instructor is just an easy thing to point to as we are the ones that have the most impact of their game. To that end, I also agree there has been a cookie-cutter approach to the the private lesson when you give them a dynamic warm-up, focus on the particular area of their game, and finish out with serves. Like tutoring, the private lesson is a time to focus all of our time as much as possible and offer creative ways for the player to understand the importance of the stroke or strategy for their game. I am looking forward to more content like this!

As a junior player I feel like lessons are absolutely necessary to reach a high level. The key is to find a good coach that believes in you, always listen to what he says but never be scared to ask “why”(if you don’t show interest the coach will do the same). But if you play tennis casually I honestly don’t see the reason for a coach, just go to a wall and hit or buy a ball machine and eventually you’ll develop some type of feel for the ball. Technique comes eventually and is always changing.

@joemarshall4226

3 жыл бұрын

If you are a hacker, it might not be bad to get a good coach to teach you a better serve , overhead, drop sot, whatever...in other words, whatever you want to improve.

I'm a 4.0 that just started teaching beginners, so I'm intrigued to watch this. I don't just feed balls, but actively watch and provide input & work on form. If I'm not there to help them improve then I don't feel right taking their money. It's a hobby job after-hours for some extra money on the side. I was doing just kids for a while & with them it's just a matter of keeping their interest. Recently started with a teen and a couple of adults and have enjoyed actually teaching some things. I don't follow a fixed format, but start with some feeds or rallies and go from there based on what I see. I ask them what they'd like to work on as well. I'm new to this so some of this is learning on the job for me as well, but it can take some effort to figure out the right language or trick to help them with their muscle memory. With the teen and adults it's usually focusing most of the hour on either forehand or backhand and then a little bit of time on something else.

Tennis pretty much saved me after a very difficult divorce that involved losing my home and children. I managed to find a club with group lessons. It reduced the cost and gave me time to meet new people. Was it the best technically speaking ? NO. I did learn a lot and this took me on to a new level. I started playing tennis again at 45 and here we are ten years later learning quite a lot on KZread. I would say that lessons are very important.

I probably had total of 4 hours of coaching in my life, I learn mostly from KZread contents, but not everyone is dedicated about tennis like us. I think coaches provide motivation, role model, you know, more than just techniques.

Thanks for the insight gentlemen. I think it’s extremely beneficial to hear your perspectives from both the client and coach’s lens. I appreciate the knowledge. I’m planning on doing individual lessons this summer and I believe it’s crucial to first ask clients questions such as “why do you want to improve your game” or “what is your overarching goal.” Their response not only tells you their level of passion for the game but can also direct your instruction, as well (as I’m sure you all already know). I would also probably have them write down their goals for accountability/motivational purposes. Btw, love the “weekly bowling” analogy… I’ll be stealing that one. Didn’t mean to make this a bible verse but I am super excited to start sharing my knowledge of the game with others - and at a significantly lower cost than pros would charge. Thanks again for the wisdom! Super cool you guys are only an hour away from my location, too! Best regards guys.

21:08 "the best private lesson type of coaches are actually people that are part-time" definitely agree with this 👌 these are the type of coaches who aren't afraid to lose clients so will be honest with them and what habits they have to change

@tonygareth221

3 жыл бұрын

That is me at this point

@BullyGarfield.

3 жыл бұрын

yeah this is perfect. my coach doesn’t need to coach. he is well off living in a million dollar home and in a rich area. but he still had passion and i can tell that

@andrewfreeman8221

3 жыл бұрын

So there aren’t any good full time tennis coaches?

@tae912

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewfreeman8221 i think the silence says it all

@gasperm3

2 жыл бұрын

I don't agree with this because I think the coaches who do this full time can really see things with a trained eye, than someone not accustomed to coaching all the time. There are probably some burned out coaches who this applies to but coaching full time has only made me a much better teacher.

I'm with Mark. I taught lessons while in college and his description of the standard tennis schedule of the drills, picking up balls, grabbing a sip of water, etc. is spot on. Candidly, I'm getting back into tennis after a huge break with travel/work, and I'm looking for something completely different to get back into form to compete. I am inclined to find a good fit for a coach (even if it's remote) and do some video analysis of games and form and work through them via zoom. I know what I want to do, and roughly what I'm capable of, so I just need an objective and constructive eye to see what I may not see and help me to correct things. If you're 5-10 years old and you want to get into tennis, then old-school lessons in a group format are great. But, there is a point for anyone who wants to improve their game where they need serious coaching which is not cheap if we're being realistic. Who wouldn't pay a few thousand dollars to consistently hit their desired serve at the right time in the right spot? If you play regularly and competitively, you'd absolutely pay thousands and do so gladly. If you're a weekend warrior that comes out 15-25 times a year to hit and re-strings your racquet as often as we have a national election cycle then, lessons may very be a complete waste of money for you.

I used to be a coach for a club, and the first thing my coach taught me was to figure out the people who cared about getting better and the people who were there to get attention and a sweat in. We both realized the second you try and change things up too much, for most of our players, they would hesitate about coming back.

@toddb1208

Жыл бұрын

Yep totally agree. Just taken over a new club and they've been used to the same coach and management for years it's like they can't handle change. Usually though when you lay it down hey do you want to be here or not? They buck up and if they don't they can go. As long as they've paid for the term no dramas

@dps0610

Жыл бұрын

@@toddb1208 for sure. It just sucked when that was probably 70% of our day. We had so few lessons that you actually got to be engaged in. It was soul sucking work.

Fantastic discussion. Honesty is appreciated. Keep it going.

Great topic, Mark. As a former tennis teaching pro (of six years) I have a little bit of a different take on why private lessons may not be the right fit for most students. When I was growing up back in the 00s, I took mostly group lessons from the coaches in my local area. My parents didn't have the resources at the time for private lessons, so I was only able to take them on rare occasions. The coaches that I worked with were not particularly interested in developing my game beyond a certain level and it took until the early 2010s for me to finally come across a coach that could deliver exactly what I was looking for (which turned out to be Jeff Salzenstein from Tennis Evolution). I started teaching tennis a few years later, as a way to make some side money, and I eventually went full-time with it for about three years. In my opinion, it's a very tough business model to make work. You can do well in the late spring through the fall but the cost involved for renting the courts during the winter makes it very hard on the coaches. I should also probably mention that I taught full-time as an independent coach. I have to agree with what Ian said in this video. Regardless of the level of passion that you have for your job, it is still a job at the end of the day. It has to make financial sense. And the best way for a coach to do well with coaching is to give group lessons or in some cases semi-private lessons. Private lessons are often much harder on the coaches, as most students are unlikely to stay with them for an extended period of time. You can charge $20 per hour and they would still drop-out after a certain period of time. Why not charge what you are worth? I think if the coach has the ability to help the player and can give them the tools that they need to achieve their goals then they have every right to charge what the market will bear. Just my two cents.

I hear Ian and Matt's point about the students needing to be proactively thinking through what he/she wants to work on, and accepting the most basic technique advice from the coach, including to be prepared to change their grips or other fundamental things. However, I can only agree to certain degree. As a student myself who is pretty serious about improving my technique, I find that boiler plate instruction isn't sufficient anymore from a private coach in this day and age, especially for serious creational level players. I think that a better-than-average coach for recreational player should start thinking how to improve players strokes based on the player's need and ability. Even if someone is unwilling or unable to change from continent grip to semi-western, doesn't mean a coach can't improve the person's forehand with the continent grip. The person probably isn't hitting continental grip as well as John McEnroe, right? So there is still room to improve on that continental grip forehand. The coach probably needs to do some research on how to hit great continental grip him/herself because s/he might not be familiar with this old school technique. Then the coach can teach the student how to make the most out of what s/he got. Another case in point, my young daughter was a young 7 years old when she first started tennis lesson. She'd had this mental blockage where she just couldn't close her racket face for a typical low-to-high topspin ball. Two years with a private and group lesson she was still struggling with this simple thing, every week was "close your racket face, close your racket face, low to high, low to high". We can all blame my daughter for not paying attention in the lesson or what not. Even I got very frustrated at her and her inability to do this simple motion. However, a light bulb went up for me and I asked the coach one day about six months ago, why don't we move on and start teaching her forehand slices instead of topspin? Slice is high to low and racket face can be slightly open at the end of the swing, which is basically how she pretty much swings the racket anyway? No joke, two weeks after my daughter started rallying with her forehand slices, and that built up so much confidence and enjoyment for my daughter. In this situation, I feel like the coach should have thought outside the box and worked with my daughter with what she can do physically and mentally. I shouldn't be the one who came up with that idea to start teaching her slices first. What if I wasn't a tennis guy myself and wasn't able to make such suggestion? in that scenario my daughter would forever be shut out from the game of tennis because she failed to start her tennis experience with a topspin forehand like every other kid. Sorry for the long post.

@johnrussell1171

Жыл бұрын

Nice post. You are right that topspin isn’t for everyone but someone can still be a very good tennis player and have loads of fun without it. And your daughter enjoys the game now that she can play. It’s possible she could develop topspin later.

@stilllifeproductions5017

Жыл бұрын

Your daughter's inability to produce TS on the FH wasn't necessarily a mental block. Did she hit a tennis ball prior to her first lesson? It may have simply been a case of ingrained (flawed) muscle memory. If not, the human body enters survival mode where the sympathetic nervous system comes into play in hitting the ball in any way shape or form to get that ball over the net - the open racket face being the survival option. Regardless, we can break down the stroke into segments (the problem "contact" phase here) and have the student perform forearm and wrist drills and use tools to help build new muscle memory (and in time, eventually exterminate) old or flawed muscle memory. The relatively new 'Topspin Trainer' is one such tool that's excellent for beginners to work with...

Great podcast! I subscribed because of this! I agree with everything presented. I think whats most important is really the client. Great point at 7:20 That being said, the client should have an idea on how the stroke is hit but should get a private lesson on where his/her shot goes wrong. I took a serving lesson for the first time 2 days ago. I have a decent topspin serve but inconsistent flat and slice serve. I know how to hit those serves but I dont know where I go wrong in my stroke. This is what you are paying a pro to tell you. I was very clear with what i wanted in the lesson. After a dozen serve, the pro pointed out a glitch. I acknowledged it and after about 20 serves i was hitting better serves because i took out that glitch. Im a very happy customer. So, to me it was money well spent. Some clients maybe different and I do see why most private lessons are a waste of money. Lastly, i think group lessons are the way to go for beginners to intermediate. Once you get to high intermediate and advanced private lessons working on specific technique and strategy maybe be worth it. Thanks for the video and thanks for reading.

Mark, Ian, and Gimli. Name me a more iconic trio.

@mattlemery2724

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha

Great topic - and appreciate the honesty. I think the industry lacks professionalism if I am honest. The number of times I will be having a lesson and the instructor will start talking to someone on the next court or allow 1-2 mins of my time to be used by another person coming in and asking questions. The focus should be 100% on the client for the entire hour - someone talks to you "sorry I am with another client right now". Starting 5 mins late, finishing 5 mins early, only wanting paying in cash, having absolute junk 3 month old balls. The industry has a very low bar in my opinion.

@OneAdam12Adam

3 жыл бұрын

I accept that you have a right to how you feel and your reality. You've had a bad experience. Anecdotal evidence is not factual evidence. Many clubs overwork their pro staff and clients are demanding. Especially as prices increase they have every right to be demanding. It's not so cut and dry.

@sak079

3 жыл бұрын

@@OneAdam12Adam all fair points. And by the way my experience is based on circa 12/13 coaches over the years. The majority lacked very basic professionalism - clients are demanding yes but charge the big bucks and you attract demanding clients and they expect professionalism. Personal trainers, golf pros etc all in a similar boat. Wanna charge the same as a lawyer - be as professional as lawyer.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

No passion, eh?

I would say with some coaches, it is a waste of time but once you find the right coach, it's completely worth it. My coach does not have that repeat blueprint constantly. My coach now does a lot of point play strategy and he changed my core and made it a lot better. I know how it feels to be in a transition period because I am currently in one, and it's even more tough mentally but the results will be worth it.

Hi guys as a former full time coach and hopefully once my kids have finished college a full time one again. I kinda agree with you, I watch club coaches and 5 out of 7 are pretty bad and just going through the motions. A good one makes a major difference. It's definitely more the coaches fault then the clients.

Something I've have never seen here in Brazil in the many places I had lessons, and maybe are also not implemented anywhere else is giving the student a written questionnaire, with basic theoretical questions about ground strokes, serves, volley, basis tactics.. just to access the student understanding/knowledge of the game. I for example know a lot about theoretical tennis but still struggle to implement what I know during matches. Others that I see at club level don't even understand what they are suppose to do and why, let alone how to hit.. Accessing where the student level is even before the lesson begins is key to develop a good teaching plan. When it comes to lessons, for me the real rip off is the group lessons. They sure are cheaper but they just bundle up 3-4 students that are supposedly at similar level and then warm up, drill, serve and play points for an hour.. That is just work out in a tennis court not tennis lessons. The only real long lasting improvement I had in my game were with individual lessons. My $0.2 pesos.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Oh a questionnaire, I never seen a written one in a tennis setting except for some high level camps. And yeah group lessons some students hit one ball every 3 minutes :(

The point about tennis players/clients knowing what they want from the session is important. I used to have 1/2 things that I would like to work on and then if I ended up doing something else particularly well that day, I would focus on that, sometimes swapping it in for what I wanted to work on. Strike the iron while it's hot. The serve at the end of a lesson has a purpose though. It takes a lot of effort to hit a serve and the end of a session makes it that much more challenging when you are tired. Also, it's a beautiful feeling when you hit the cone on one of your last few serves.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Ayyy that sound when the tennis ball hits the cone.

This is not an American Plague like Mark said..I m in Greece, same type of lesson here. But after changing 3 coaches in two years as a new player, I now make sure I direct the lesson where i want it. What I told this coach when i met him was:"I work out two times a week and play tennis against my friends another two. I dont need the workout or the sweat with you, I just want to get better." So I think all points are very valid in this podcast 1. Most ppl do tennis lessons for a workout or for socialization purposes 2. It is normal for a tennis coach to repeat the same lesson if it still brings him back the clients 3. If u re one of those ppl that actually want to take lessons in order to get better, tell your coach. Direct him. Since I have done it I am happier and I feel like my coach is actually enjoying giving this kind of lesson Cool podcast, keep it up, thanx

I was an “assistant pro” and then a “pro” at several clubs back in the 80s. It was never actually said, but I quickly learned that tennis instruction (at least in my case) is never just about teaching. To be “successful” you have to be able to first market yourself and the products in your pro shop. You have to understand the business side of things (like being a store owner), string rackets, keep up with the technology and who’s who in the ATP, be a good salesperson and schmoozer, event planner, run tournaments, keep up your skills and fitness while generating enthusiasm for tennis and doing everything you can to build the game. I could teach but the amount of sucking up and sales I needed to do did not fit my personality. I became a mental health worker, but I have to say…looking back, those days were the best days of my life.

Another big problem is, that a lot of students don‘t want to pay for one on one coaching. They want to play in groups of at least 4 players so that the lessons gets cheaper. And this makes effectiv coaching even harder.

I had a conversation about this with my coach a couple days ago and their point of view was that if you don't put in the effort during the lesson, he won't put in the effort for you because you are wasting his time. The club he teaches at is in the middle of monterey ca so he gets a lot of people who just want to do it for fun and they don't really care about getting better.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Nothing wrong with fun in all honesty, but I was going at this podcast with the aim of player development (both junior and adult).

Great discussion. As a full time coach, I’ve certainly become the tennis activity coach for most of my clients. I’ve discovered like you, most won’t/ cannot change. I focus mostly on body/mind/eyesight awareness and connection. And as you said; passion and finding 50 ways to transmit the information is the coaches responsibility. Again great discussion and great content on your channels. Best regards, Coach Montreal Marc!

@sadiemellow

6 ай бұрын

So true!

My 8 year old son has been working with a coach once per week for almost 5 months straight. Once per week with coach and another 4 days I’m practicing what he showed with him. My biggest issue so far is the coach doesn’t have a training plan specifically for his development at this point. I had to watch some videos to show my son how to hit open stance. Every lesson has been done being showed closed stance. Finding a reliable coach that can provide a solid plan shouldn’t be this hard

@ovorg05

6 ай бұрын

Your 8 year old son shouldn't be hitting open stance! Open stance is needed once a certain level is achieved but learned at a lower level it creates bad footwork.

@Philosophy85945

6 ай бұрын

@@ovorg05 hes 10 now and still playing. Its not a linear path to development 👍

Look, the reality is that most people suck at tennis and there’s a limit to what level they’ll ever be able to play at. Most people paying for lessons are old and rich and tennis lessons are just part of their social scene.

( information from 5 years ago when i did classes) here in Brazil there is a big disparity in the price of the group training and the price of court rental. to rent a court you need to pay R$50 for a court for one hour to get in a group training with 1 other player for 1 hour 3 times a week costs R$ 250 per month (12 hours per month) so i used to do the group class because its cheaper. the classes were pretty much just hit balls with each other

What a brilliant triage! Perfectly valid points across all angles and lenses... wow

What should be the optimal ratio of instruction vs. repetition time? E.g., For each hour of lesson, should someone be getting 4-5 hours of reps (Ball machine, hitting partner, wall?)

@kelvintrollol

3 жыл бұрын

It will vary depending not just on the person, but on the technique. For example, the technique of getting into an open stance to hit a running forehand may be easy and take very little repetition to master once instruction is given. But tossing the ball to the right spot to hit a serve but take a much higher ratio of repetition to instruction for some.

I have been working with the coach this last year who has a real talent for not just improving shots but also how I conceptualize playing up points. A lot of club tennis players are caught up and winning and losing and being competitive but don’t really know what they’re doing. It’s been helpful to get a better sense as to how to construct points.

I HATE the "tennis club" model. Mark touched on this in the beginning. Where I have to pay you (the club) money, to then earn the right, to pay MORE MONEY to use your court, or get a lesson or play in a league, or get a racket strung. I hate that. Its almost a scam. The bathrooms are never that nice to justify the cost. But in the Midwest, there really is no other option.

My son had been taking tennis lessons from his coach for 2 years. He always told my son you have to be accountable for your skills. After months of expecting him to be accountable, one lesson he dismissed him from private lessons. The coach told him that he was “wasting your Mom’s money and I can’t do it anymore”. After that I canceled the other private lessons he was taking. Only group lessons. He laid out a plan for my son to be accountable and return. It took a bit. But my son did it and has returned and has a renewed respect for his talent and coach. At 15 it’s not about tennis it’s about being accountable. So glad his coach cared more about my son and his character than his bank account.

WOW--I am so glad that I have a coach who asks me what I want to work on for the hour and point out my technical or mental mistakes going on. (and I do know ahead of time what I am lacking and needs to work on)

@barryliu3473

3 жыл бұрын

oh yeah my coach also berated me for not knowing what I wanted to work on a particular day.. Thank you coach

In Trevor Noah's case I think there is a difference in how well certain coaches can teach certain things. Some coaches that I have known personally struggle to teach beginners basic technique, its not that they don't understand good technique but rather they struggle to communicate it in a way that beginners can understand it but are pretty good at teaching more intermediate and advanced students because they start to focus more on advanced techniques, tactics, and strategy and their ability to explain those things is better. The way you would coach a 1.0 rating tennis player vs coaching a 4.5 or 5.0 tennis player is much different. It sounds like they paired Trevor Noah up with some who coaches other pros and not necessarily some who has experience teaching and coaching absolute beginners.

There are 2 types of good coaches: 1. A coach that works FOR YOU, not the one you WORK FOR 2. A coach that can rally and give you different types of balls, mimicking what happens on the court

This applies to anything in life. If you want to improve you need to have the passion, work ethic, effort for it.

Great episode! It's the absolute same in badminton. Coaches need to have a feel for what the player actually wants. As a coach, I don't get satisfaction from people who don't really want to change to improve. So I don't take those people in. I started late myself at 16 and reached the top national level. The only way I got there was by changing for the better. Get out of that comfort zone. The player needs to be ready for that.

Mark love this and I need advice -How do I find a good private lesson? I really wanna improve and the coach I had would usually just say over and over "Hit the ball lower" or improve your footwork. I ask for things to focus on for next week "Improve your footwork" the advice is so general that I have no clue what to improve or do.. How do I actually find a good coach? What should I tell me ?

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

If that is what the coach is saying and you keep asking for specifics... DROP THAT TENNIS COACH IMMEDIATELY

@xawee7254

3 жыл бұрын

@@MarkSansait Im going to drop him this week last lesson - But I have no clue what to look for in the next trainer. How do i make sure the next person is good during the first lesson?

On spot highlights, love it. Thanks for sharing

This was interesting. Love to hear the perspective of knowledgable coaches!

I agree with the beard. I think you've got to inspire your coach to do his/her job and show that their going to get as much out of the lesson and teaching you as you are. I would add that if you find a coach who is ready to drop you because you're not putting in the work - that's the coach you need.

Really on point from you guys. Most people just want a good sweat, but they don't know it. A good coach will instantly know who has potential and that is when he or she has the responsability to be proactive and stop the copy/paste classes and focus on develop technique, gameplan, etc. But for sure is 99% of your students just want a good cardio session and they are paying your bills, by all means, go for it.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

✌👌

I agree that many tennis pros align with what you are saying. I have taken lessons that match what you are saying. That said, I have had some lessons where I have learned a lot and saw improvement. It is expensive, but you have to tell them what you want to work on. You have to be proactive in your development no matter what sport or activity you are involved in.

In Minneapolis, lifetime charges about $100/hr on top of membership fees. Membership fees can be $80-150/mo. You pay tax for that too. There are some good coaches. These guys have been there for a long time. There are some coaches who don't care at all. At the end of the day, if the customer service is not there, they can't get repeat customers. I have met some great coaches in MPLS area.

Agree on the template and coaches not caring bout anything but the 💰... part of why I got back into teaching to spare these kids and their parents from that pain.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Mark, What camera would you recommend for recording matches? (aside from a $300 GoPro) Thanks!

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately I think go pro is the best way to do it given how fragile DSLR cameras are :(

@nolanalexanderballew7438

3 жыл бұрын

@@MarkSansait Well...it's foolish to ask advice and not follow it...GoPro it is. Thanks!

Totally agree with everything you guys said. All my clients have come from referrals and I am a part time coach. All have come from previous coaches who did not provide quality coaching. One could easily fall into the trap of coaching because of the money being so good but on the other hand, coaches do charge quite a fair amount due to the court fees we have to pay for the session. I coach in Australia and the court fees here are ridiculously overpriced. Oh, and i find group lessons to be absolutely useless when teaching beginners. Not sure how you guys feel about this. Perhaps another topic to raise. Glad this topic was raised today. Well done guys!

As far as pricing goes I also wonder if its a state like California or Florida where the weather is much more conducive year round to teach outdoors, private lessons may be able to be done at clubs with exclusively outdoor tennis courts so the memberships may be cheaper, or even on public tennis courts where the membership fee is pretty much zero. Growing up when me and my brother took private lessons towards end of middle school and high school it was done on public tennis courts at the park by our house so there was no membership fee.

Remember The Old Saying... Racquet Back Bend Your Knees THAT WILL BE $125.00 PLEASE

I know I’m late on this but which level makes the best player would you say a 5.0 or is a 4.5 sufficient enough. Also should an experienced player take lessons from someone at their own level or try to find a better player than he is. Personally as a 4.5 player I don’t think I would want an instructor lower than a 5.5 or 5.0

Matt is pretty much on point. The lesson, in and of itself, isn't going to do anything without the student/client, on their own volition, actively practicing what they have learned between lessons. And playing matches instead of focused practice between lessons isn't the same thing either. An hour session should really be broken into a 20-minute section to focus on a technicality and the remaining 40 minutes with a feed or ball machine to drill that change into muscle memory. Optimally, the student should rent a ball machine for at least two more times that week to keep drilling what was learned in the lesson. Sure it takes time away from match play but again, this ties into what seems like diametrically opposed goals, you have to choose between winning and improving.

Are there any good tennis strings for all-around playing that are durable and affordable? Also, should I use 2 different types of strings for my first and second racket? I'm gonna get natural gut on my first racket, but I'm skeptical about putting it on my 2nd racket because I heard natural gut gets ruined if you don't use it for a while, and I won't use my 2nd racket unless I break a string on my first. Thanks!

@Dubinski2382

3 жыл бұрын

Luxilon Savage white strung at 48-50 lbs. You'll love it.

@zenpanda100

3 жыл бұрын

Weiss Canon ultracable

It is crucial to acknowledge the difference between teaching and learning. Imo, a lot of teaching pros come from a successful junior career, where their learning process was often effortless and intuitive. Then they take that experience into their teaching. And some equate their teaching skills with the development of the talented kids they teach, not acknowledging that these kid's success is more a reflection of their own learning skills (rather than the teacher's teaching skills). The true measure of a coach' skills, comes when facing less talented kids or beginner and intermediate adults, where you need a lot of tools in your toolbox to be able to find the teaching approach that resonates with the player in front of you. The less skilled coaches can't acknowledge that identifying a flaw in a player's technique, i.e. not being able to close the stance or stepping in, does not mean the solution is to tell the player to step in, ref. Noah's story a bout brushing the ball. The solution might as well asking the player to be mindful of timing of the split step, or notice how much they rotate the upper body (asking the player to notice rather than telling, ref inner game of tennis), or feeding balls that accentuate a "sideways" feeling aso. I'm not saying these are great examples, just pointing out that even if the coach identifies the weak link in a chain, fixing it might entail starting somewhere else, because that makes (bodily) sense for the student. A great coach has this understanding - and the experience to chose the right tool.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Facts!

I completely agree with Marc. I saw some very good coaches, but a lot of them don’t care about the students. I don’t consider myself very smart or skilled as a coach (I work in a rehab clinic, where I also give 4 hours lessons weekly), but I am able to teach my students how to get independent from me. I teach them how to practice and I am not afraid of correcting them so often as needed to make them improve. There is a guy in my city who was once pro and had a huge reputation as a coach. I saw one of his lessons. I was impressed to see how bad he was working, with an astonishing ineffective system, with sporadic corrections (but given up when the student didn’t get the movement right immediately). I swore I would reach more working 4 lessons with these students than the coach in 40 lessons (I am not exaggerating). I even think that many coaches are even happy if the students develop very very slowly, so they will stay longer with them. Very sad. By the way, privately I don’t ask money if I help someone to improve the game. I do it because I like to see if my help with be effective, and I think better players should help other players in a tennis club, similarly to what chess players do. Nothing against coaches. It is just that players should learn how to practice together. Actually a coach should make this a priority in the lessons - students should learn how to work independently. Coaches will usually not do this because they are afraid of losing the students, but this is simply wrong. A coach who cares will always have students.

It is why I love the ball machine and an iPad. If you are honest about your game, you can fix a lot of ills. I take a lesson every couple of months with a pro I trust (and he is usually booked solid) to find out where my grip is wrong or I am missing a vital part of my mechanics.

Ok, I’m not quite as pessimistic about the state of tennis coaching at the club level as you all seem to be. I do agree with the idea of the “band aid” client. It’s up to the coach to inform/educate the player that repetition is the key. So, I do disagree to a point, that cliche coaching is wrong. Yes, change how you might say things, but don’t stop trying to help them understand. The pro at a resort is much more likely to do the cookie cutter thing, while the pro that stays at a club for more than a year, expands their teaching repertoire. That is worth the extra dollar. One more thing... Players come to a coach for many reasons. As much as I would like to teach a Pete Sampras, the fact is that I also work with 80 year old Sue, who wants to talk, and hear how great she is doing. Let’s remember,, not all players have the same needs or goals. Appreciate you guys. Keep it up.

Coaches are a huge advantage in seeing parts of ur swing that u dont realize need change. The issue is cost of coaching not whether coaching is a waste.

I was a high school coach. Many of my players went to the pros at the country club and I was glad at first until I saw them taking lessons. It was not so much about making them better as it was making them happy. I advised them to stop taking lessons there. There was a coach in a different division who had taught his son will enough to win State in Texas and get a full scholarship at a top rate tennis college. I advised my students to take lessons from him. He needed the money like all high school coaches, but making them as good as they could be was more important to him. We had conversations about what we needed to do to make my players play better. He was a great help at the Region and State tournaments. My grandchildren are to far away to coach, so I advised my children to find a good high school tennis coach to teach my grandchildren, It will be cheaper and they probably will care more.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

YES!

To what „skid“ are they referring to at around 10:58?

As a tennis coach and coach educator I agree with the video, the majority of Private lessons are a rip off. You don't need a private lesson every week, you don't need a private lesson at all. Group coaching is cheaper, you will hit with players who won't just feed you a ball (Tennis is open and not a closed sport) and you will make friends who you can play with outside of lessons for free. At some point over past twenty years people think you need more private lessons to make progress, what did players do before coaches? Oh they just played the game. Yeah I do private lessons myself but I always give the players two commitments, you must practice in-between lessons and you have to compete as some level otherwise you dont need me. Great topic!

I think great coaching is based upon a philosophy of life, and the ability to communicate passionately those philosophies to their students/clients. A philosophy of technique, and structure is about life and living, and the mind body and soul should be satisfied after a lesson

Yes, you speak the absolute truth at 16:30 People don't want to experience the failures to get better.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Facts

I am 67...68 before the year is out! When I was at school, I was not taught tennis! I was taught cricket! Tennis was only taught to girls! Now this hurt me, as I was in love with tennis and I could not see enough of it! I managed to get a Slazenger Junior racquet for Xmas or Birthday (only a outlet of days between them, so it makes no odds). I then played all I could at the local tarmac courts in the town park inthe valleys of South Wales. I learned to play from watching Wimbledon on TV (not many other tournaments were televised then). I played my friends in back-to-back 5 set games....curtailed only by torrential rain (which was in abundance in Wales). Ever has a lesson.i eventually managed to save up for a Dunlop Maxply Fort...the same racquet that took John McEnroe to Wimbledon Championships. My heroes were John Newcombe and Illie Nastaze. Never had a lesson! Never learned anything other than watching on TVan playing. I got quite good! I used to beat people that eventually went on to teach tennis after they qualified as teachers. You don't need lessons! You have to have desire! Tuition can only build on that foundation....it cannot replace it! Sadly,I gave up after I went to further education! Who knows what would have happened had I had the right guidance! I will never know!

I'm a tennis player (obviously, being here) but I'm also a driving instructor. I hear what you're saying about coaches having to pay bills etc and just wanting a cookie cutter approach but I tell you what, I don't take this approach with any of my students. My job is to teach so students don't just pass their driving test but are safe and aware drivers. I get plenty of students who come from other teachers. Students are pretty smart; they know when their teacher is chasing $$$. I believe that if you give 100% for your students benefit then the business side will take care of itself - the reverse is not true and the harder you chase the $$$, the less (consistent) business you will have. I also look at each student as an individual so if I explain something to a student and they don't understand then I don't view the student as the problem, I try to come from another angle to see where I'm not making myself clear.

Great talk: the point is to have a feedback with the " student": whats your goal and what you have to do to reach it... Some people all they want is do a little exercise and that's it. The least they want to improve to play better.

When I play on public courts: there is a private coach that trains students on the courts. I noticed how some of his students were learning how to serve and they were using a forehand grip. That might not be on the coach; rather, the students just might have switched their grips before serving.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Mine sometimes switch grips during the motion.

I know you are in America where you can become a tennis coach in a weekend. In Europe it is a one year private coarse, we have up date our knowledge yearly, otherwise we lose our licence.. The skill level asked from the coach is higher. Near perfect technique is asked. Still some point are true also here. A coach without passion, a coach who doesn't listen. A coach who only sends but doesn't ask for feedback. Still can be a very good tennisplayer. Not a good coach. I taught at this one place where the director said to me as long as they hit as much balls as they can in an hour, all other things I don't care about. They don't have to learn, (you cant teach adults new stuff he said )as long as they had their workout. I lasted 6 months there. I could not do it that way.It became toxic fast. Not the place for me. 2 years it took to recover fysical & mentally.

20 years ago I took some private lessons that were super valuable. Maybe I was uniquely blessed, but back then, when you didn't have cameras to self evaluate yourself and limited access to video teaching, your only hope was a private lesson where you ask a Pro to look at your swing and identify the errors you can't self diagnose. With camera phones, KZread instruction, and affordable ball machines today, lessons are only a waste if they act like it's the year 2000. Otherwise any coach correcting errors for a serious student isn't a waste.

Concentrate on the greatest weakness, work on it, one step at a time, and give the student a chance to hit his/ her best shots too within that hour without any comment except requested. My last teacher interrupted me after literally EVERY shot, despite me being fairly good already. Thats frustrating, and no chance to find groove. I quit on him and now learn from you tube lessons. A lesson, whatever subject, should always involve some fun, let's say at least 30%.

I agree, customer has to take responsibility for the bad lesson as well. If your child don't see progressions, then you know you are stuck with a bad coach. I watch lessons and see who is standing up and who is moving. If you are with a good coach, you see fewer kids are standing up and watching.

Tennis guy here, teaching at a club... hit the click bait topic. Listened to the whole thing. Yup... pretty much agree, could have been a 2 hour talk about the differences in rec club player, babysitting juniors, high performance juniors, social aspects of tennis, and the different avenues of entertainment that people are looking for. Keep up the good work boys!

I cannot believe it took my this long to find your channel. I've been subbed to Ian for years.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Glad ur here!

I started playing at a lifetime and I found the difference between it and a normal club is that the professionals need to get customers hence really try to please you rather than be cookie cutter and inflexible. Also all the pros to my knowledge played college and give good technical tips even in group lessons.

i have a one handed backhand use to slice it all the could never drive or get top spin,just tried different things then one day i tried useing a different way holding with the non dominent the racket now i never slice & iv got so much power & control.

Incentive and Integrity to oneself the client and the game. "Know thyself" - you won't get burnt out as a coach, offer good personalized lessons, and you will be happy where you are at.

As a teaching pro, I've done a good job of reading my students within our first few lessons and figuring out what they want. I can easily tell if they want more instruction and technique, or less instruction (talking) and more hitting/exercise, or something in between. The biggest problem I see coaches make is they talk too much, and this is the easiest mistake to avoid.

@MarkSansait

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing!

@sashbar

Жыл бұрын

This is interesting. I never buy a second session with a coach who hardly talks. I't like hitting against a wall.

Most coaches don't bother with progressions. And that's what works. It's long, kind of boring, not particularly taxing but it works. Most of my lessons have been glorified workouts. I get more out of recording myself going through progressions than I have from any coach. I almost want to get into coaching just to show people what good, effective lessons look like. Funny thing is when I took a golf lesson, the first thing they did was record my swing. Tennis is way behind in using that technology. Ian's lesson are they way to go.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Keep on recording!

Is there a coaching qualification your club pros have in the US? All our club pros are LTA level 3 or 4 coaches

@Raven05R6

3 жыл бұрын

Yes there is a USTA certification for coaching

Just worked for the first time with a young guy who was having shoulder problems. He'd worked with a highly-respected coach during his youth. I offered to take a look at his swing when he got a chance, and tonight there he was. Took about five minutes of hitting to track down the problems, the worst of which was just the way he was holding the racket, which led to a number of other problems. He was amazed at how his forehand wasn't stressing his shoulder--and he was getting effortless spin and power. My charge for the help? Nothing. I'm not a professional. Never played college. Never played high school. Was a pretty good teacher, though, back in the day. I figure somebody overpaid for lessons if the guy taking the money never bothered to look at this young man's grip.

I think bad or apathetic instruction is part of it. As Ian alluded to during this discussion, lots of people don't like change because it's uncomfortable and takes effort, and people do like to make excuses if something doesn't go well. People are so enthralled with quick fixes to improve at sports, fitness, or to lose weight. In tennis, people seem to think that one tweak to a stroke technique or a change of racquets will solve all their problems. It really does take time and effort to make improvements. But, I agree with Mark in that there's a lot of bad instruction out there. Personally, I feel like I've made more strides hitting with other tennis playing friends and playing practice sets.

I've thought about and had to deal with this a lot so I've an opinion almost in line with the title of this Vid and I'm very glad you're saying it. Writing from Barcelona where the tennis culture is super high, yet the tennis coaches are great players but almost worthless as tennis educators. Trying to get decent instruction I've worked out with/at up to 9 different tennis clubs in the last 3 yrs. So far I've learned and progressed best alone iny garage, putting in the time and the study, made a slow motion library of up to 75 different vids of pros doing everything, plus my own trial and error method. Hugely time consuming because I'm not a tennis professional. Long story short the reason tennis pros suck (sorry) is that: 1) they don't have the background on the width of modern tennis strokes that are valid (because they're too lazy or don't see the need). So then they start blocking you from doing what you are seeing on the vids, frankly out of ignorance, 2) they haven't stopped to try and understand the real mechanical reason behind the components of the strokes, so again they bloke you or force you into doing things for the wrong reasons (again, ignorance of the sport), 3) my experience, is they don't understand didactic progressions and how humans learn anything, humans learn slowly, by parts, isolating ideas/movements and slowly adding layers and repeating. That works. 4) they're all different.....supposedly each one is an expert yet in fact many contradict each. So a student gets trapped into one pros manías about what you can't do, which are the opposite of what another pro is adamant about. Net net what's goimg is, each "pro" is too comfortable with his own strokes which represent a very small part of or even no part of where modern tennis is today. They don't put in the time to be experts in their field, and while they may be good at their particular version of tennis, they haven't bothered to understand the real reasons behind the mechanics of the strokes, and last they many times haven't tried to learn to teach.

Yep! That’s why I worked with my son for many years ( started about 4)until he stopped listening . I see this all the time! I would walk by the same kids with little to no improvement for years! I hv no professional license or certification l, but I played for years at a high level, and my kid went to high school full time. Yet we overcame the odds, and he signed a NLI with a D1 college.

These complaints are VERY similar to the golf industry. A lot of golfers showing up expecting the lesson to fix their bad habits, not putting in the work outside of lessons, and coaches using the same rinse and repeat antiquated methods because it pays the bills.

Full commitment to the sport with a experienced coach is the only point when you benefit from tennis lesson as well as consistent playing

When i was a tennis coach i had one student who didnt really listen and insisted on pushing. I was honest and told the mother he wasnt going to improve much. That was the last lesson. I had another student for years. He developed a very powerful serve and forehand but struggled with control. I enjoyed more working with him because his projected long term potential was much greater than the pusher. I appreciated Federers game and have lost interest in the current tour.

Mark, do you see the value in a "playing lesson." I plan to play a doubles match together with my coach against two tough opponents. The emphasis will be primarily on my movement during a point, as well as my service game strategy. I did this when learning golf and found it more instructive to actually be out on the course, as opposed to hitting hundreds of balls at the driving range.

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

I think so! To make it more valuable I would definitely record it.

@greenlampshade8909

3 жыл бұрын

The coach is going to be limited if participating. This isn't golf. Imagine if the golf pro was preparing to hit or hitting their shot while you were doing the same. The coach might occasionally observe problem areas that crop up in real play and be able to give sound doubles advice, but they're in the trenches with you, fending for their life, too, especially against high level competition. Best if there are five players, so coach can rotate in and out or just observe the entirety from different viewpoints on court. Mutliple cameras allow both immersion and observation by coach. If real-time analysis and feedback can occur...GREAT! Four will be fine. But if there aren't cameras with easy access to quickly review the previous problem point/game at changeover, 5 would be most productive to get observation and feedback immediately.

interesting topic. being a tennis pro to me is like being a doctor and trying to figure out what is going on with my student. I need to look at what level, what there physical tolorance is, what level they are, how cordinated they are, and how much I can push them. when I walk on a court with a client I ask them what do you want to do? or work on?. if they have no idea, i give them an over view. i throw them FH volleys BH volleys, right away theres something to be fixed. then to service line. FH ground stoke, and BH ground stroke, one again theres something that needs to be fixed. yah at the end a quick over view of there serve. I alway put the game it to my lesson at the end. like tie breakers. Most people watch tennis on tv. so thats what they want to do. they don't watch drilling. my philosophy. is I want them to get better at what there doing instead of making them something there not. just by adding this or that or doing less of that. people take lessons for variors reasons, they don't play tennis match's, they want to get better, they just want to working out, and other reasons. but in reality everyone drops back to there default game in matches and never get better unless they stop worrying about making mistakes and just work on the stroke they just learned.

This is a very important topic. Private lessons are a waste of time if the coach do not have the goal of moulding the student to become a professional player! Coaches with any other goal is just a rip off! e.g Seen young coaches who have only taken tennis coaching courses and teaching bad habits or coaches not correcting bad technigue from a very young age. They just go through the motion. Coaches must understand that parents are investing time and energy getting their sons and daughters to be coached and so coaching must be on par with training a professional player.

Good coaches don't have to hit with the student. I met one coach, he is a 3.5 player. His feeding skills aren't that great. However he produced at least half a dozen great juniors in the area.

The way to find good coaches to see who are the top players in the higher level tournaments and who are coaching them. Often good coaches take good players and they train them well. I can name at least dozen great coaches in Minneapolis area.

I agree that a some coaches probably use the same drills for a lot of clients and fall into that role of glorified ball machine ; but imho I think the role of a coach is a bit "overvalued". I really think its up to the player what he feels is necessary to get to that next level. Too many players just show up to a lesson and say " I want to get better " ; OK what do you want to work on? " You're the expert you tell me "