All respect to club pros trying to make a living teaching the game they love!

You guys literally nailed this. Looking back to 9 years of working at clubs it is just crazy how relatable so much of this is.

@Kite_GU

3 жыл бұрын

That’s not how the word “literally” works

@nikkana7178

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kite_GU you are correct!

@nikkana7178

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kite_GU i should have said figuratively.

@Vipa567

Жыл бұрын

@@Kite_GU That is how it works.

My first job I ever had was working at a indoor club in NORTHERN NEW JERSEY! The THINGS THAT WENT ON THERE WERE ABSOLUTELY FRIGHTENING AND DISHONEST! The club opened in 1977 and shut down in 1982!! I have scary stories to share.

I’ve been at a private club for 18 years. I’d be happy to come on but you’d have to blur my face and change my voice like I was testifying against the mafia!

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

Shoot me an email of your story!

@rkane19

3 жыл бұрын

@@MarkSansait how many would you like?! Haha. Also, what are the names of the other guys on with you?

@BullyGarfield.

3 жыл бұрын

@@rkane19 the bearded guy is is matt and ian is the guy in the middle and the asian person is mark

@joshbernstein9913

3 жыл бұрын

@@MarkSansait I'm a tennis director in CA and would love to come on. Let me know if you are interested.

My takeaway, being a tennis pro is like being a hairdresser or any independent contractor job where you have to build your own client base. Whenever you're not using your hands you're not making money. And you only make a quarter of the paid fee?!

I worked at a tennis club as a coach for over 2 years and I 100% relate to everything in this video

A lot of what you guys said resonates with my experiences as an adjunct faculty member. No benefits, only paid while in the classroom, meeting students outside school. I was on welfare, teaching the maximum allowable number of classes (max because any more and they'd need to pay benefits), but couldn't take another job because holding office hours, grading, creating assignments, is all non-compensated time. I loved the job, but I had to leave. I speak out against pay in higher education because no one will understand the need for change without it.

Friday night before 8am Saturday lessons...let's start with you warming up your serve @__@

This is a brilliant show! Loving the inside scoop on the tennis underworld 😂

Love the honesty and stories guys. Thanks

I know coaches that teach on just public courts. My old coach use to teach at 3 different public places in town and basically was running a full junior tennis academy totally under the radar of the city

@bounce_hit3534

2 жыл бұрын

What a dickhead. Its impossible to play here because of leagues and people like him using all the courts.

Mark is definitely right with more pro's getting fired because of relations with clients. I worked at a club from 16-22, and we had 6 pros were fired. No reasons were given, but after every firing we had trainings on how to interact with members appropriately...We never had a pro get fired otherwise, and we were all teaching side lessons too.

Terrific. If I ever take a lesson at a club again, I'll tip. I took a lesson with a friend. I asked the pro to draw us up to the net, lob over us, repeat. I crawled off the court after an hour of that.

Love this podcast....been teaching 19 years...and working 45-50 hrs a week isbtaking a toll on my body. Knee is bad myt need an operation...like u talked about i really cant take off cause i wont get paid for 2-3 months! U guys are making think about working less and finding a different field...but i love teaching.

I was seriously and I mean 'seriously' considering setting up a Saturday morning lesson with a good pro. Nope, not gonna' happen now. And I mean that in a good sense. Mark, you tell it like it is. It's not just the tennis industry either...

This was such a revelatory show. I might add that tennis clubs operate on an antiquated business model that subjugates the pro more than any other profession where one has to be credentialed to perform their job. I am an actor, musician, former bar owner and former retail manager, for a National company. Pros and cons to all of those jobs. Being a teaching tennis professional is a joy (I am a head pro), but the club system is meant to break you in the hopes that you bow before the idea of full time employment and the ridiculous American crisis of gaining benefits.

Worked at a tennis club part-time for a decade, not teaching, mainly just to pay for court time. Went in envying anyone who taught tennis for a living, pretty quickly lost that illusion. Not easy. You nailed a lot of it. One thing I think you missed talking about is the incentive to cram as many people on court at one time as possible. Great short-term strategy (8 people paying 10 bucks for an hour can= 1 private lesson), but it never lasts, and turns a lot of people off the game (do I really want to pay to hit maybe 50 balls in an hour?).

@hsy2448

3 жыл бұрын

8 people on a court sounds like a scam to me ngl I always thought 5 max per court and that’s generous.

@mjj3132

3 жыл бұрын

@@hsy2448 Mostly the case, but there were ways to get creative. Cardio tennis, for example, and certain privately organized junior stuff. One year there was a "pro" at the club who seemed to specialize in church groups. He'd get 6-10 beginner kids from these groups on one court. He left after one year with a large unpaid bill for his courts. Real class act.

@hsy2448

3 жыл бұрын

@@mjj3132 nice, but yeah cardio tennis sounds like busy work, and I think it would be a turnoff for beginners, I do recall a drill where a guy had like 6-8 advanced kids on a court and it was like cardio tennis but I think that was to improve tennis fitness.

even though the pay is poor, i wish i would have considered coaching tennis at a club while i was in college. it sounds like it would have been a lot of fun.

Great exposure. Forgot to talk about how some pros backstab other pros in private clubs.

I already greatly appreciate my tennis coach because he completely transformed my game ,and it costs me 120 bucks an hour including court cost. It just makes my respect level for all coaches go up tremendously.

@hsy2448

3 жыл бұрын

Man good thing your pro is good 120 is really high it’s like 80 an hour where I live.

@rishinatarajan2887

3 жыл бұрын

@@hsy2448 its expensive for us because he is a really good coach. He is the assistant coach for arguably one of the best coaches in my usta section.

@hsy2448

3 жыл бұрын

@@rishinatarajan2887 ah I see, so is he almost professional coach level?

@rishinatarajan2887

3 жыл бұрын

@@hsy2448 My private coach is not but the head coach/ main coach was an itf player. I'm definitely one of the worse students because my utr is only 5.8 but I can compete with my friend who is almost a 9 utr. His best students are 10 and 11 it's right now I think.

I'm a personal trainer, and working at a gym is exactly the same!

Oh wow! You guys are really human. And I appreciate the conversation.

I think the dirtiest secret here is Mark's company deploys to prod quarterly. Sounds like they have devops jobs available!

@MarkSansait

3 жыл бұрын

HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?!

great conversation here fellas. everything is spot on 🤣

One aspect that would be interesting to hear you guys discuss is the balance between making a living teaching and keeping the membership happy by having available courts for them to play on. I taught for a while and it was something that I never actually thought about at the time. Now that I'm a member somewhere, I find it incredibly irritating that it's very difficult to book a court because we have so many teaching pros taking up the court time. It's a conundrum, I think, for pros and clubs alike. The club/pros need to make money but the dues-paying members want court availability.

@danquestnorth768

3 жыл бұрын

Good point, at times a problem at our club.

My old club fired at least 10 managers to the point that THEY MADE OUR CLUB BABYSITTER THE MANAGER!!!

I've only played at one private club as a guest. On the second visit I rolled in with my new cordless Slinger ball machine to practice my groundies. I was politely told I was not permitted to use my own machine even though theirs didn't work well. So I swore off private clubs.

I was a full-time independent tennis coach for five years. In the beginning, I absolutely loved coaching because I felt like I was making a difference in the lives of my students. However, it became more and more of a grind. The pay was decent in the spring-fall but drops off substantially in the winter. For anyone that is looking to go this route, I would HIGHLY encourage you to make sure that you have more than one indoor facility that you can work out of. You will have to pay the rent for the facility. However, it's well worth it to be able to teach on the days when it's raining, snowing, or just too hot to be outside.

Great conversation chemistry

Love this...🐐

1:34 I’d say the same thing about most software used in just about every hospital that I’ve ever worked in!!

@ashleywalls4097

2 жыл бұрын

As a software developer, I think most people underestimate the cost of changing and training staff for a software switch. My GF is a travel nurse and some systems still use DOS. They don't even have a mouse =D

The pay was very low. But the club was in a beautiful setting with great coworkers. Only lasted a year, but it was nice.

Hahahaha! I had a 8am class on Saturdays 😅. Sorry coach but I was drink that Friday night myself. Hahaha.

I heard MEP is starting his own academy. 😆

@SpiritDonkey

3 жыл бұрын

Places They Don’t Want To Go Academy

Wow did not know this is the case, thanks for sharing info. If tennis is more open and available to the general public maybe US will produce more quality players and get the younger generation to take on tennis.

Listened to this on Spotify yesterday, it was a fun episode! Surprised there was no mention of the one thing I remember from my time at a club - moving merchandise, especially racquets.

If I had KZread and the six tennis channels that I subscribed back in the 70's, I'd never have taken a lesson. Players who can learn from a KZread channel don't need one-on-one lessons and have made teaching coaches a rare breed.

@architennis

3 жыл бұрын

I started taking weekly lessons a couple months ago and, for me, the personal and iterative feedback from my coach is on a whole different level from all the KZread tips. Though I also gain a lot from the online tips too!

@patrickhamning1734

Жыл бұрын

Not the case. A private lesson can cut through a lot of problems you will run in to when learning from youtube videos I don't like it when students use youtube. Most of the time the student will work on something they aren't ready for, or it won't apply to them and their needs at that moment And another portion of the time, the advice in the youtube video is antiquated or out of date and out of touch. Coaches are still doing the damn "racquet behind your head" motion and it just complicates the serve unnecessarily nor does it promote a positive learning experience

@paddlepower888

Жыл бұрын

@@patrickhamning1734 You make valid observations. I didn't intend to demean effective in-person coaches. It was a compliment to people who have the ability to learn from effective KZread channels, like those that teach using progressions. With KZread we can find a coach who gives private zoom lessons, if the nearest teaching pro is 50 miles away. We'd take this step if we had the $ and just couldn't absorb the concept without a little more hand holding. You can't guarantee the nearest teaching pro doesn't teach the "racquet behind the head" motion either. With KZread I can "repeat" the lesson. I then go to the court, film myself and compare to what I see on the lesson. Without KZread, I wouldn't play much if at all, because I wouldn't have driven an hour for a lesson. Friends sometimes give advice, but often their information comes from KZread. FYI, some of us out here give $ when the channels make that avenue available--I do when I see a tip that I'll take to the court. For a Zoom lesson, we'd pay about what a private coach charges.

Is that a Joseph Zbukvic painting behind you. He's so good! Ok, sorry for the hijack. Back to dirty TT club secrets. Oops this is regular tennis. Thought it was table tennis

I'm a tennis director in CA. Would love to come on!

I went through the PTM program at Ferris State, I'm pretty sure I did a shot with Matt

@MarkSansait

2 жыл бұрын

Just one?!

Sadly, my tennis club seems to care about everything..... except tennis. Fitness, basketball, sewing (ok, exaggerating about that) anything but tennis is pushed. "What singles offering do you have for 4.0-4.5 level?". Answer is well, nothing really. They barely market options for my little kids. It breaks my heart, but I guess there isn't money in tennis??? I don't know what other explanation there is. We have permanent court time for 2 courts of doubles, but nothing else is offered. Sad.

@a2casius

3 жыл бұрын

Check who owns your club. I bet it's some entity which is just bleeding your club dry. Tennis takes too much space and doesn't bring enough subs. Imagine how many gym equipment you can fit on a Tennis court and how many more gym subs you can get out of it.

@patrickhamning1734

Жыл бұрын

Tennis clubs care about making money. That's it. They are not held accountable for their practices

My club gets my bill wrong every other month! It's totally the laughing stock of clubs in my area. But the price is right. I looked at other clubs and just could not afford to play there more than once a week.

as a former tennis assistant at a tennis club, I can confirm that many invoices got messed up and there were indeed drugs done on sight

@ashleywalls4097

2 жыл бұрын

We smoked lots of pot :)

@paulsteezo1772

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like my old tennis club. The laundry room was where EVERYBODY WENT TO GET HIGH! AND WE HAD A FULL BAR OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

@paulsteezo1772

Жыл бұрын

Tons of Cocaine and Purple Microdot...

You guys need to write a television script. The Tennis version of Letterkenny.

@Eliath1984

3 жыл бұрын

"I see your Tennis shoes came in today... Strokes comin next week orrrrrr?"

cool video

I got a bad UTI from the whirlpool at my club. Itched and burned like hell.

Is the misspelling in the thumbnail intentional? Also an interesting topic Mark - as a newbie to tennis scenes!

@scottbroady3159

3 жыл бұрын

Don’t give away any secerts

I'm sure it's different in different places, but I've been a full time coach for 8 years and when someone's been fired, 90% of the time it's for missing lessons or groups multiple times. That said, out of that 90% almost all of them were part time and seen as expendable. If a successful, established pro gets fired, it's usually something crazy.

Mark, I am not licensed in Wisconsin but if you ever need a lawyer in Colorado or Texas, PM me. hahahaha

I've learned that employers that get upset you're working for someone else are just abusive people that want you to be completely and utterly dependent on them. Don't worry about taking other jobs do it without fear you'll always have something to fall back on as a result.

How dare tennis coaches are pretending to be "humans"! Insightful podcast. Thanks.

Fun fact: I met my wife when we both worked at a club. If you didn’t know me (and these three clowns do), you could create a narrative that makes me look kinda bad, but you’d be mistaken.

@a2casius

3 жыл бұрын

Too late and too bad. You were already part of the narrative :)

@scottbroady3159

3 жыл бұрын

@@a2casius get off my lawn

@yougood809

3 жыл бұрын

@@scottbroady3159 Your profile pic could not match your personality more lol. I wish I could learn tennis from you

@scottbroady3159

3 жыл бұрын

@@yougood809 and I wish I could learn it from you! The beauty of this game is that none of us know everything or anything near it, and we are all students. I hope we can hit together someday.

Tennis pros who want to change clubs but think they can't because of non-competes should consult with an attorney. Many, many times, such non-competes are unenforceable. Many clubs know this but have their pros sign them because the pros don't know better.

Ian, don't talk with a mouthful, or maybe just eat before or after the video.

Guys. There isn't an easy way to make a living (and certainly not a good living). Sorry but you're just going to have to suck it up and get on with it like the rest of us.

What this episode is screaming is that we need to change the economic system where we don't tie "benefits" to jobs.

@FormulaMeme

3 жыл бұрын

Without getting too much into politics, I don't think that being healthy (through routine healthcare and emergency care) should be a benefit like it's something you don't need especially for a tennis pro.

@michaelboyko5024

2 жыл бұрын

Well, that has been tested, that's called the communism. It failed.

@leob4403

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelboyko5024 capitalism is about to fail too

You misspelled secrets in the video title...

I also now have mutitudes more empathy for the pros I have known for years that go through the 'reps' with the ladies, the teens, etc. I am seeing bad form, bad footwork, no trophy serving positions, etc, etc. I want to get really pissed and say stop them, correct their form please. You don't get paid unless you are doing the lesson or on the court----that's a game changer. I'm sure they are aware of the 5-10% that really are looking for real improvement and adjust accordingly.

For non-US people it might be good to explain what a typical “club” looks like. I was shocked though by the response to the hand-on-shoulder “incident”. I get the cultural differences, but it’s not like he whipped it out, right? 🤣🤣🤣

@geutz2000

3 жыл бұрын

Same for the shoulder “incident". Just crazy. 😳

@patrickhamning1734

Жыл бұрын

I know what you are saying, but US tennis instructors are horndogs. It's just sketchy to see a male touching someone at the job. Because most of the time, that pro is going to continue to pursue further physical contact that leads to homewrecking Lots of pros get their rocks off touching people

Courts could be coopted.

Worked front desk for a private club for years. I think I would rather use a pen and court sheets than have to deal with the app and website that the club was using. There is barely any information on the website and the app oh boy. How difficult is it to create an app that shows static black bars to check in with and a spread sheet to book courts. I guess most clubs are run by ignorant, money pinching, boomers. The lack of creativity, good business decisions, and care is baffling. Just trying to milk every penny from every member, employee, and teaching pro.

Honestly, I'm not very excited about the stories getting out. I like teaching tennis and I want to do it for years to come. However, if these stories getting out have the ability to encourage the indoor tennis business to get it's act together, I guess I shouldn't be too upset

👍

Who pays the light, the court, the net, the rollers in a Club

Thanks for sharing. Although, not all of these are considered dirty secrets as long as people understand that coaches are not employees at a tennis club. Many of you guys' points are just that tennis coaching is a hard career, which it is. But ultimately it is a service, so working off hours and holidays are standard understanding, most stores and restaurant related workers are like that too. Not having benefits, it is the same as all contractors in any industry. Now, when you talked about coaches being "too happy" on Saturday morning session and how much of a cut the club is sharing with the coaches for a $80 lesson, and the sleeping with club members, those are very interesting.

@patrickhamning1734

Жыл бұрын

The tennis industry needs regulation. It needs a higher authority to step in say "what the hell are you doing? Your standards of professionalism are awful"

Errors in private club billing are a $75-100 billion loss to the economy every year.

@MarkSansait

2 жыл бұрын

Literally a third of the US economy. SAD

Y'all missed the fact if a tennis coach has more talent then the director

I've got one for you. I've worked in tennis clubs for 15 years. Initially I thought a good coach makes a good player. WRONG! A good player makes a good coach. Let me explain. There are two kinds of coaches - 1) those who teach beginners/intermediates 2) those who teach advanced only. The first type puts in all the work and gets none of the credit. They teach the player 100% of all the fundamentals that set the stage for improvement later on, all the while inspiring the player to enjoy playing. They teach when it's HARD to teach. Once that player gets good, they (and their parents) think they're too good for their first coach, so they switch to a "better" coach. You know, that coach that all the parents walk into the club and they see teaching all the best players. They think "that coach MUST be a better coach, because all his players are better, and I want my kid to be better, so I'll go to the "better" coach, not the first coach who teaches 6-year-olds." All that "better" coach did was wait until a good player came along and began teaching him/her so he could be seen by all the parents teaching a good player, making the parents think he's actually a good coach. Parents have no flipping idea how it actually works. The first coach does all the work and gets none of the credit, and the second coach gets all the credit and does none of the work.

The standard of tennis teaching is poor really poor saw it in u.k and now in the usa. Many students don’t know what they are learning or improving. Burwash tennis resort is a place that may help

This is why tennis pros should unionize.

Lol, awesome video guys?

I am curious. What % of the fee does the pro usually get?

@hsy2448

3 жыл бұрын

I assume its price of lesson - court fee - (10-20$?) club fee = profit of pro,

@minisurfbanana

Жыл бұрын

Depends where u work. I teach outside of NYC area and young coaches like "helpers" or high schoolers or college make like $20/hr a Certified Pro anywhere from $25-$50/hr in clubs outside u can make $60-$70

This is more like "Dirty secrets of Tennis Coaches they don't want you to know". Very disappointing. As regards to Clubs, in short, they are being Killed-Off by Private Equity investors who have scant regard for the sport and purely run clubs as Cash Cows, Sell off all the assets they get their hands on and once they bleed it dry and all the members are complaining, they sell it off, but not until they have massively inflated their membership books to scam the next idiot. If you've watched "Goodfellas", you'll know what I mean. As for coaches, they're tainted by association, are accessories to the disgusting raid on our sport and play their full part in the demise of Tennis. My heart does not bleed for them. They're in it for the ride whist they keep a front that all's well and when it's all destroyed, they move to the next club to suck it dry.

Hey at least AI can't replace a tennis coach.

I was expecting this to be something interesting for tennis club members. Instead it’s for the teaching pros. Not members, and I didn’t hear any “secrets” Just a lot of common knowledge. I was wondering what you teaching pros think of this. I was a member at Los Gatos Swim and Club. This happened in the early 90s, and the member and the pro are not there anymore. This was not the head pro, this was one of the regular pros. This male teaching pro had a lady that was taking tons of lessons from him. At least twice a week. She was 3.5 or 4.0. She was a great customer. She had to be paying him (the club) hundreds and hundreds of dollars every month. The same pro was also the coach for one of the women’s USTA League 3.5 or 4.0 teams at the club. I think there were three different teams at that level. So one night, this student is playing a UTSA League singles match against his team. She overheard this teaching pro telling the singles player from his team how to beat her. She was crushed, brokenhearted. She was hurt so bad inside, that she couldn’t play well and she didn’t win a game. I think she would’ve won the match if that hadn’t happened. She pretty much quit tennis after that. She had really been into it. playing league matches and local tournaments. This might not have anything to do with it, but the lady from his team was much more attractive than the lady who is taking private lessons. What do you pros think of that? I think it’s an ultimate betrayal, sure he’s the coach of that team, but the student should be more important to him, he should’ve just been neutral that night.

Sounds like pretty typical stuff to me ... no "tennis club secrets" .. certainly nothing dirty ... ask a personal trainer .. or a spin instructor

clubs don’t care about the standard of coaching I was on my own. Every man for himself I work for. myself

Hey tennis community I recently got “tennis elbow” any people here know how to cure that

@shameelsolanki9226

3 жыл бұрын

Stretching with bands before and after hitting helps! Search essential tennis for tennis elbow, there’s decent advice

@nicholastanzola488

3 жыл бұрын

I started doing dumbbell wrist curls to strengthen my forearms and that helped

@DavidPeacockArt

3 жыл бұрын

Play Virtua Tennis at home until your body stops being nasty to you

@pencilcheck

3 жыл бұрын

Bend your elbow when you hit, bend your knees, low to high swing path, catch your racquet, pat the dog, weight transfer. Make sure you do jump rope for 30 mins every day and do ladder then your elbow will be cured. (jk, actually don't follow any of the advice here, it will make your elbow worse)

@stevlehr

3 жыл бұрын

It's usually a technique problem. In my case, I wildly overhit my one handed backhand shot. I fixed that. Switching to a two handed backhand might be enough.

Poor Ian was constantly interrupted on many of the stories he began. I was left wondering what else he might have said...

I like the clubs that choose a contractor that has never built a tennis club let alone a tennis court. 8 months over budget and behind schedule. And, now the courts after 8 months are cracking.

I would change the title... the laments of the coaches....and you will not lose your job.

Spelling

thumbnail text got wrong spelling. epic fails 😂

Wow $80 dollar lessons at a club😂😂😂😂 suburb of NYC my clubs charge $145 and $120 both i make $40/45/hr

Tennis coaches don't get fired

Who is the most famous “Yopper”? Asking from Europe.

3:15 what do you mean Johnson with a t or Johnson without a t? What world are you living in where there is a Johnson with a t?

@Naomi-gr7fm

3 жыл бұрын

Johnston maybe? 😵

Are coaches sleeping with minors? If not they're both adults, idk if you should get fired for that. Just thought I'd add, I do think it would be a problem if these coaches are hitting on members while they are coaching/working.

@willnill7946

2 жыл бұрын

It will obviously become a problem

@paulsteezo1772

Жыл бұрын

I remember one tennis pro at my club who was in his 40's taking a 15 year old into the head pros office and doing GOD KNOWS WHAT TO HER! WE often wondered how she got TONS OF FREE GEAR!!

OK, I'm sure this is a stupid question but...what's wrong with sleeping with a member of the club? Assuming both people are single and adults.

@willnill7946

2 жыл бұрын

Because they are never single and their member spouse will have you fired and you will need to move to work again with your bad reputation

Literally could have this same complaint session about basically any other individual 1099 based profession in the World. Everyone hooks up with everyone around them regardless of profession. The drinking and partying thing is prevalent among any profession where the majority of people are under 30. The drugs thing is in every side of the business world to some degree. Nothing you are saying here is about actual tennis secrets but rather it sounds like 3 disgruntled former coaches who carried themselves and spent time around the wrong crowd. Tennis pros are no different than most highly skilled individuals in that you make your own future. If it’s too much pressure to build your business then don’t be a tennis pro! Simple!! Bottom line, they can do exceptionally well or they can fail. Much like realtors (what I do, where we also do not get paid until/unless we produce our own business), lawyers, accountants, doctors opening their own practice, and basically every other entrepreneur out there. If it want to have lifestyle freedom then it comes at the cost of having to put in extra effort to build your backend. It’s not the clubs fault, the owners fault, or the players fault of a tennis pro can’t make enough money.

it’s good not to have a wife or children as it can destroy your life A high maintenance wife Similar to any other job Avoid the maintenance girl

I would listen to this podcast if the dude wouldn’t chewing…damn

The secret is 50% of all tennis clubs will be converted to pickle ball clubs within 2 years.

@MarkSansait

2 жыл бұрын

Probably true

@minisurfbanana

Жыл бұрын

This video is 2yrs old...i work at two clubs...one has 2 hrs a week of pickle ball the other zero 🤷‍♂️

WOW poor coaches.. especially those charging more than a brain surgeon...so poor. Just do something else instead of whining?