So? Is MMA a style or not?

@asesalem9342

3 жыл бұрын

Didnt seen the video yet but i say nah 😅

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Haha let me know what you think after you’re done!!

@CatholicArmory

3 жыл бұрын

MMA is not a style. MMA fighters who have specific main arts get praised because of their specific main arts.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

How long until that’s not true, John?

@joenorway47

3 жыл бұрын

Its a sport not a style

What if MMA was the friends we found along the way? **Proceeds to get side-kicked in the balls**

This discussion is exactly why the Gracies only wanted fights with no judges, no time limits, and win by only KO, TKO, or submission.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Bam

@Histgyph

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds more like vale tudo

The answer is Ramsey Dewey is MMA. Probably

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Haha yes, that’s definitely the answer

@coolman54061

3 жыл бұрын

this is pretty😂😂

@paulpolito2001

3 жыл бұрын

This answer is 100% legit in 99.995% non-Street scenarios.

@GuitarsRockForever

3 жыл бұрын

Mexican martial art 😁😁😁

I'm so sick of people telling me "MMA is better" or "you should learn MMA instead." Just let me learn taekwondo in peace

@darrellwilliams1714

3 жыл бұрын

Your taekwondo could be part of your mma. If you learn other styles youre a mixed martial artist

@internetexplorer7143

3 жыл бұрын

@@darrellwilliams1714 I started learning Muay Thai and BJJ so I guess I can call myself a mixed martial artist.

@darrellwilliams1714

3 жыл бұрын

@@internetexplorer7143 you sure can

@ssjrose9641

3 жыл бұрын

Yes!!! Go enjoy tae kwon do...learn and if along the way you want go learn something else lol...its amazing how some idiots always say "MMA is better"...some people dont want to learn sport MMA...I guarantee you that if you spend enough time training TKD, that you will eventually adopt other styles to enhance your skills, ie muay thai, karate, some sort of graplling...and bam...guess what you know MMA...lol...enjoy the journey.

@internetexplorer7143

3 жыл бұрын

@@ssjrose9641 Ever since I posted that comment, I’ve gotten into BJJ, Muay Thai, and Kali

It was funny at around the 15 minute mark seeing the same thing happen to Dewey that happened to us when we started talking about it. We were like no... no... no... wait... what?

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Yea I think we brought it back though... sorta

@badgejohnson5596

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth Dewey made a good distinction. Styles = a set of techniques and practices - i.e. you can't do a double leg or G&P in TKD. MMA = rule based with evolution with a little bit of 'fighting styles make fights' . Here MMA styles means 'game plan' not limits due to tradition like styles and TMA is.

@edrichlouw1790

3 жыл бұрын

Badge Johnson but that’s still just because of the rule set.

@badgejohnson5596

3 жыл бұрын

@@edrichlouw1790 It's more than that. If I tried to do a takedown in a TKD dojo with mats, even though that might be in their one-step self-defense series, they'd not only stop me they'd also be angry. If I tried to grab and hit in a TKD dojo, they'd stop the fight despite that not being a violation of any specific rule (besides, arbitrarily 'don't grab'). Even faking a leg kick (roundhouse to the knee) without contact is heavily frowned upon. You must use the techniques within the style (in general) and not something from outside it. You would not use an Aikido throw in a Traditional Karate sparring session, even though they teach falling, and teach wrist locks. It's because the Instructors are guarding their 'rice bowl', as it were. They do not want people to think outside the box even if it's mostly benign. (in my experience)

@psykikninja

3 жыл бұрын

pretty sure ramsey dewey would kick your ass bud..... just saying but ur not allowed to bring ur metal whip and pepper spray but ahahaha. dont test him.

The civilized debate still exists. Professional fighters prove it all the time.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

What?

MORE RAMSEY :D It's the best when my fav youtubers collab!

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

This is the last one for a couple weeks, but we’ll totally do this again!!

Been bugging me who Ramsey sounds like but I just realised that it is Ron Swanson. Not an insult.

Wow, I love these talks. My favorite martial arts you tubers coming together! Since I’ve started instructing, you both have been so inspirational to me. This is a tricky subject. I would say that mma is not a style in itself, however I would say that when training for mma every person develops their own style. As far as I’ve known Bruce Lee would teach people to fight the best way that works for the individual he was training. I see mma forcing the person to do the same thing. You’ll no long be a traditional martial artist, but you will develop your own personal style that fits you personally. Any rules in a sport will change how someone fights, but that won’t change that you’ll have to know how to fight in each zone of distance as best as YOU can. If you train in a technique that you can’t use well then it’s useless and you need to throw it out of YOUR style. Thank you both for your time and knowledge🥋

Styles = every animal and their subspecies. MMA = The whole zoo.

@hotsaucemtkb575

3 жыл бұрын

I specialise in polar bear, wombat and warthog

@therealjesus1317

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@blackpowderkun

3 жыл бұрын

MMA doesn't have weapons, no group figthing, alternating terrain, clothing based techniques and dirty figthing. Guess zoos can't handle every animal.

@dacenmarus1618

3 жыл бұрын

@@blackpowderkun Touché

@hitman47784

3 жыл бұрын

Bra so smart well said

I think MMA is like Jeet Kune Do. Everybody have his own MMA. Like: „I show you my MMA“. 😂😂😂

@Celerystinks

3 жыл бұрын

Bruce was the grandfather of MMA. Its a principal so in theory its the same as Jeet Kun-Do. In short: in with the useful and out with the useless. Use what works for you and throw away the rest that doesnt apply.

@blackwingdragonmasta

3 жыл бұрын

That's very true. Every mma fighter is different because their style is based on not only what they have trained and learned but what they have excelled in. Take Nate Diaz for example, when boxing at range you can see he is good at works with his own style but he excels at the inside dirty boxing at a close distance

@josephperkins4080

2 жыл бұрын

@@Celerystinks 😆 Sorry it is not lee that is the grandfather of MMA.William Edward Barton-Wright is the Grandfather of MMA

@Celerystinks

2 жыл бұрын

@@josephperkins4080 he didnt popularize it and bring it into modern society like Lee did. He was the founder, the voice who brought the concept to life was Bruce. He made a huge influence on so many people and made the north american culture rise into martial arts and make it mainstream. Before Bruce, it was small groups of people who were influenced by EWBW. I mean, its also like someone asking “who was the grandfather of metal music” and if Black Sabbath wasn’t, it was some obscure band no one ever heard of, who actually created the sound

@humphrex

Жыл бұрын

@@Celerystinks Bruce Lee is a fucking caricature. He never even really fought. It doesnt matter that stupid americans fell for his crap. No one else cares about that baffoon

Excellent. Another collab to break the internet. Nice work.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Hope you enjoyed it 🙏

Referring to the brief chat about jiu-jitsu rules, I would argue that it is less important that we find some perfect ruleset than to have a multiplicity of rulesets (including competing in other sports) , so that people have a greater tendency to learn grappling in general and adapt to whatever they're doing at the time, rather than learning the most efficient things for one ruleset.

Great conversation. You two are some of the most respectful, chill vibe and obviously subject matter experts out of all my various interests! I love mindfulness and meditation so pretty impressive to be chiller than some of them ;) love the conversation

1:38 the reason sanda hasn’t been heard of a whole lot is because when people go to their tournaments they realize this style of fighting is very effective because sidekicks don’t work

You and Mike made me get into fighting and I love it now, thanks man, great video.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Ah dude that’s so cool to hear!!

Well, the ruleset results in everyone being an Jack of all trades. That being said it's not a style, in MMA you're free to have any style you want. This can be a more boxing heavy style, a karate style like Wonderboy, a more Muay Thai style, a jiu-jitsu style in which you take someone down and submit him, or a wrestling style with a lot of ground and pound.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

I think I would agree with you there! Do you think it may be a style some day?

@VincentMMALife

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth Well maybe, but I think people will always have a certain style, because if 2 people train exactly the same from the same age in MMA, they will always naturally lean towards techniques and a fighting style that fits their character and their body types. So even then they will always have different styles in my opinion.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Vincent MMA Life I think it’ll styles will become much more defined and MMA WILL become its own style... eventually lol

@VincentMMALife

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth For sure the styles will become closer and closer, but like I said people will always have certain characteristics and they will always favor certain techniques more than others. Some may naturally be better grapplers than strikers or the other way around.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Vincent MMA Life that’s a good point, but you’ll notice that all top MMA fighters are starting to look more and more alike, build wise.. the best characteristics will show and those will be the normal!

Through a combination of science fiction and martial arts, mma will turn into matrix like fights in 100 years

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Haha HOW SICK would that be??

@Zapinator321

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth all other martial arts would die out cause everyone wants to be a jedi or super hero

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

That’s what I would sign up for 10000%

I like the openness of the conversations you have. You're always will to take into consideration the other guys opinion and really think about what they say

The way ramsay defined style vs combat sport made lots of sense and made it easier to discern. Nicely done.

I would argue that style is seperated from sport/ruleset. So mma is a sport/ruleset in which you compete with the skills you have acquired through your training style(s). Like if you just had a sport called ball in goal - people from different ball styles (soccer, tennis, rugby, etc.) could compete to be the best to get ball in goal.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

But Muay Thai is a sport.. does that make it less of a style?

@jabrolsen

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSethperhaps mma is the umbrella for all Styles - but it's funny, just as I am typing this, and watching the video, I come to realise, that I am actually opposed the concept of Styles, as it can put limitations on you as a practicioner - it narrows the mind. So, I am full circle - everything and nothing is a style... Guess I should head to bed

@rishab475

3 жыл бұрын

@@jabrolsen we got Bruce Lee out here

@Ausea33

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth I don't think Muay Thai is a style at all because so long as you keep within the rules of Muay Thai, you can do whatever you want (which leads to different styles). I don't think someone who uses Muay Thai techniques within MMA is "doing" Muay Thai either, but rather using Muay Thai techniques and strategies. I could be wrong but that's what makes sense in my head.

@OkurkaBinLadin

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth Muay Thai is simply term for full contact kickboxing these days, Seth. How many practicioners know anything about That people or the meaning of the moves etc.? Id bet, 70% of practicioners never heard of about Muay Boran or that Thai didnt use boxing techniques until fairly recently. Old school style used only long guard etc. Rules of sport dictates its form.

Hey a collab didn't know I wanted until I saw it!

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

We’ve got two other videos I posted the other day too! Hope you like them 🙏🙏

When it comes to rule sets and its effects on how matches are played, I think WTF (Olympic Style) Taekwondo makes for a really good case study. If you watch taekwondo matches in the 2008, 2012 and 2016 Olympics you’ll see that even though the fundamentals of taekwondo and its competition ruleset, it’s still really obvious that the style of play has changed over time. This comes from how a new electronic scoring system affected the style, as well as awarding higher points for spinning kicks to the head, causing people to go for riskier moves. Also, it used to be a running gag in the community that every time the rest of the world would get good at a particular style of play, Korea would go ahead and amend the rules in their favour lol I swear most of our training was just adjusting ourselves to the confines of the new rules every few months haha

13:46 asking Ramsey Dewey to keep it simple!!!!!! When pigs fly mate

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

😂😂😂

Amazing collab

This is an interesting discussion! MMA by it's very name is a MIX of many martial arts styles! ...But mostly what people think of when they hear the name MMA is Kickboxing and wrestling! I am so glad that there are people that are helping others see past that!

A style (if defined as a specific, set framework of fighting methods) applies to karate, boxing, bjj, etc. through a points-system derived from the style's rules. Whereas style applies to mma through rules derived from the points-system. The fighting style is based on the point-system in mma. The point-system is based on the fighting styles of the more narrow & traditional fighting styles like wrestling.

This is for me the best collab I ever seen

Re- Tim Ferriss kickboxing it was actually only 3 times out of the ring! Pretty crazy. Makes sense how he could game it. Great video.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!!

Great, great breakdown

I think that MMA is a rule set, with types of it (depending of how is "played") and with fighters with their on style.

Hey Seth, loved the video , is there any chance you could make a video on the styles you’d recommend for starting MMA like the 3 or so essential styles you need to succee

MMA is definitely a “style”. There is 100% a difference between MMA Striking like Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai etc verses their original counter parts. Same with mma grappling due to being able to strike while grappling. Someone who’s really good at BJJ in MMA isn’t necessarily going to be good in actual BJJ, Gi or No Gi. MMA has its own striking techniques, footwork, it’s own grappling techniques.. everything any style does, MMA has. Because it’s the combination of all techniques that actually work.

@user_____M

3 жыл бұрын

They don't work, some MMA tighter couldn't do shit against a intruder in his house. MMA and BJ are semi-useless.

@rivermoore6179

3 жыл бұрын

@@user_____M the intruder was hopped up on some shit. It doesn’t mean MMA is not a style or it doesn’t work it would definitely work on your ass because you clearly don’t know anything.

@dreamreapersofficialyoutub6731

2 жыл бұрын

Techniques work because its mma. Wrong. Techniques work when people practice them enough. Mma Techniques are stolen from other styles so the idea that mma "Techniques" work is ludicrous

aaaay! Ramsey's shoutout to my style! Savate, feels good man.

I'd love you to do a poll on what martial arts your followers have done for at least a month. See who has been training what.

MMA is a combat sport using various martial arts. If the techniques are within the rules, any participant can use them. In theory, JKD is a mixed martial art, but rarely is in practice.

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

So does that make JKD not a style?

@Docinaplane

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth I think Bruce would have said it is like a fence-less gate. A style-less style :-)

@rishab475

3 жыл бұрын

@@SenseiSeth from what I understand that was his whole thing - jkd was never supposed to be a style - only changing like water. I think MMA is literally what Bruce Lee was going for with jkd

Collab with both icy mike and ramsey dewey would be amazing

The discussion on points really makes me think about Ganryujima - their ring out scoring is pretty interesting. I think you have to get rung out 3 times in one round to lose, but there are no submissions allowed and ground fighting is stood up after 10 or 15 seconds. It definitely favors striking but you do see sumo and other wrestling guys succeed within that ruleset by just ignoring the ground limitations and throw their opponents out.

That was pretty good. Does either of you guys have a podcast

I follow you both, I wonder why it took so long for me to see this

I always feel like I'm listening to a computer or robot when Ramsey talks. The voice, the cadence, the enunciation. Very pleasant sounding tho.

Thinking about it, I think the term style covers two different aspects in Martial Arts. A style is basically a certain way with distinctive parameters to achieve a goal. So if we look at different martial arts, they are different styles of obtaining the goal of fighting. Wrestling approaches fighting by grabbing someone and to throw them to the ground, boxing approaches fighting by exclusively using the hands to strike, etc. And in that regard I'd call MMA a style. It is a certain approach to fighting with parameters that make it unique compared to other approaches to fighting. But there are also styles within a martial art in which the martial art is part of the goal. Kyokushin for example is a style of Karate. Meaning it isn't just an approach to fighting, but also an approach to Karate. Same as Wing Tsun for example is a style of Kung Fu. And in that regard MMA isn't the style, but the goal that the style tries to obtain. It's a martial art that allows different styles to exist within it. So the answer depends on what the goal is: fighting itself or a way to emulate a style that approaches fighting in a specific way. So, MMA is a martial arts style, while for example the way Israel Adesanya and Khabib Nurmagomedov fight are different styles of MMA. Edit: You could make the argument that MMA actually is fighting and not just an approach to it, but I'd disagree, because fighting simply covers more aspects than MMA and there are approaches that aren't possible in MMA. I can't put on full body armor and bring a sword into the cage (bummer, I know), I can't invite my friends in to help me fight my opponent, I can't hide and attack from an unseen spot, etc. etc. No, I need to put on short pants, ditch my shirt, wear mouth guard, gloves and groin protection, fight for a certain amount of time with a certain amount of rules, etc. etc. So MMA has enough rules to distinct it from the term fighting itself imo.

The 4 hour work week story reminded me of a couple of things from high school greco roman wrestling. At the High School level they want you to continue to work for a pin and if you don't you get a staling penelty, they don't give you points for ride time, but in college they do. So what ends up happening is high schoolers try to get the pin off the first takedown which created this crazy statistic (I forget the exact number) but the majority of the time, the person who gets the first takedown wins. So often because of this teens don't get as much of a chance to explore techniques because they're trying to prefect what they learned at day one. And eventually because of this you realise that each school has it's own uniform style. For example your school might be known for it's double legs but the school a town over has some mean ankle picks apart of a single leg focused curiculem and you've never seen that move because it's your first year, even though it's a very basic low risk high reward takedown that many agree should be one of the first takedowns someone should learn for sport grappling.

The shido In judo is a great example of how rules effect a sport. When you change how it's applied by contrast to a penalty in BJJ it changes the sport with a very similar technique set / system.

Oss Sensei Seth. The more I think about it: y’all are right. It’s not a style. It’s a sport. Not every mma fighter has the same style. Some guys are straight up wrestlers. Can’t really call their style “MMA”. Same with pure strikers. The best fighters in the sport seem to adapt their style to be more effective against a variety of opponents. Excellent insight gentlemen. I’m a big fan of both you brahjs. Keep up the great work, Oss!!!!

2 yrs. ago, hope I'm not too late for the discussion! lol. This was a great convo. "STYLE is a codified series of movement" is about as cut-n-dry as it gets. Let me add, it's similar to the creative arts, in that elements frequently overlap one another within the many categories and sub-categories of martial arts (sports & styles). For example, kicks: Side, Round, Front/Push, Back, Hook... punches: Jab, Cross, Uppercut, Overhand, etc... you see these and other "stikes" in more than one martial art, but often with nuance differences in execution/technique... but that doesn't change the essence of the kick/punch, it's a "stylistic" variation, like a "genre" in the world of visual art or music. Being that "MMA" is in fact a sports moniker, when describing a "mix of martial arts" I prefer the term "Cross Martial Arts" to avoid confusion with the sport and it's rules/norms. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in OLD SCHOOL Taekwondo (since I was a teenager); I'm 45 now and for 30+ I've trained without "TKD" in mind... just effective (fast/powerful/accurate) practical striking, locomotion and guards... the things that matter most. Who cares what you call it, or how exactly you position your legs and feet at start/end... although obviously some technical aspects have significance; some more than others (like front/push/snap kicks with toes pointed forward = BAD). If you train "for" a sport or "as" a sport, those specifications & limitations might not be relevant in a real fighting situation, and might deprive you of a more well-rounded experience and a gaining a better skillset as a result. That's why the idea of MMA (cross martial arts) is liberating for people like myself; ones not interested in mastering a "Style" but instead mastering "Yourself" through martial arts & fitness in general. I'm starting a channel @MAF.global (Martial Arts Fitness Global) to promote exactly that.

This was a fascinating (and wondeful) conversation! I do have a counter argument though. A style seems more like something you can point to and say, they did x some y style. Insert whatever move and style you want. It seems like it can't be a codified set of moves, otherwise styles of martial arts could never evolve. Well, they do! There are sub styles of everything and the kind of major groupings get a "big" style grouping. I think that at this point you can look at people throwing lots of moves found in all sorts of martial arts in a recognizable MMA style. Thanks y'all!

What are your thoughts on karate combat? I feel like you would do good there if you would fight professionals😳 Also great video I never thought Ramsey Dewey and you would ever collaborate

Interesting conversation, thanks guys. I have a question for you: I used to practice a traditional kempo karate in my teenage years: it had katas, base etc, however sparring and competition was an integral part too: The competition called :chikara kurabe and consists of: 1.5 minutes sparring in boxing gloves (full contact), then 1.5 minute bare knuckle knock down with grappling, submissions allowed and finally 1.5 minutes ground fighting. With bare knuckles no hand contact was allowed to the head. Would you call it a "traditional mixed martial arts "? If yes, I would say MMA is an umbrella term to describe styles that embody all elements of fighting. Ta

@R._B._Victor_Hugo_Ashford

Жыл бұрын

MMA by it's nature doesn't embody all elements of fighting. There're quite a few restrictions: no weapons, prohibited attacks, time restrictions, judging.

I think Bruce Lee said it best, "unless you have more than 2 arms and 2 legs there is only one style of fighting...the human style". Hybrid styles like Pankration and Muay Boran have been around for centuries. Specific styles may highlight a distinct set of skills such as boxing, bjj, wrestling, etc, but those skill sets are derived from the human style of fighting (which we can refer to as MMA now). So MMA is a representation of the complete art of human fighting, while specialized styles highlight certain aspects of that complete art. If that makes any sense lol

I want to have a conversation with Ramsey Dewey just to watch him mentally wander. That is KZread gold!!

“Greatest of Olympic sports” Pankration: Ano Pankration was the stand up. Kato Pankration was the ground game. It’s a style that included striking, wrestling and submissions.

Isn't MMA just a combination of styles? It's a tough question, I don't think there is one correct answer. Seth, when were you planning to go to Thailand? I'm hoping to go again soon, it'd be great to do a video together if you were up for it.

@gregorylatta8159

10 ай бұрын

Bruce said it years ago. You need to be proficient in all ranges of combat.

I’ve seen mma gyms where they have a guy teaching mma to people in the same way people teach singular styles. It differs for fighters but none the less there are “mma” classes for the “casuals”. So in that sense mma is a style now.

AYOOOOOO PART TWO IN THIS BIIIIH!!! I feel some styles can be MMA. Styles that incorporate many methods of operation. (I want to put extra emphasis on the word Martial too) striking, weapons etc. One could argue that ninjutsu and HEMA fall under this classification (don’t some schools of Karate train in weapons as well?) I also feel its hard to define a style, in some respects other than the culture of the school itself, and the bond the students of the art have with the name. are movements really something that should define it? (As you said many schools of boxing teach differently) 52 Blocks (also known as Jailhouse Rock) is primarily a punching based art with regional styles across America, whats keeping that from being simply a subset of boxing. how can certain martial arts have ownership of punches or kicks because at a certain point there’s only X-amount of combative movements the the body makes. Like what If someone starts utilizing an untrained move that just happens to be an exact move out of another style? is it that other style? or is it still the style they practiced? For example I’ve never been trained in judo but through years of backyard wrestling I created my own throw that just happens to be near identical to Judo’s O-Gaeshi, Is that throw part of my own personal style or does it still belong to judo? And that wouldn’t be the only technique I “invented” either (I think I’m starting to do the Ramsey Ramble™️ here... hold im going somewhere with this...and its gone) Great vid by the way looking forward to more great content!! Now im gonna get out there train! 💪🏾

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

We’ll get a flipped version of the other “matching martial arts styles” video soon! This is actually part 3 of our talk!

The "real" MMA was the friends we made along the way.

I think an easy way to distinguish a 'style' from a combat sport is this: A style is a list of techniques, training methods, and culture, and potentially also a philosophy. A combat sport is a list of techniques, and training methods which are not allowed, and certain parameters around how the fight is staged. Or even more simply: Style = you do these specific things (footwork, head movement, clinching, and punching for boxing for example). Combat sport = you do whatever you want but these specific things (soccer kicks, eye attacks etc), and you do them in an octagon of a certain size, made of certain materials etc.

Ramsey is the 🐐 martial arts KZreadr.

Im currently being taught one on one by my uncle which has owned a dojo before. Should i stick with him or train with an actual dojo (I love practicing karate with him i just want to be the best i can be

Hey sensei when are you gonna try to attempt the 540 hook kick again?

A good point to make too is the difference between combatives and martial arts. Martial arts generally meant for winning a game against an opponent within the rules of that game which creates a tendency to favor things in order to win and combatives are just about winning period no matter what it looks like and I feel like MMA originally favored the combatives side and is now working towards a martial art

A style is like the way a certain person fights in mma. Like the valentina style or the khabib style

I read in a book "The Fighter's Mind" (I think) that there is a phrase "Rules make styles but styles make fights." If that's the case, wouldn't the MMA ruleset of "UFC" make it a style unto itself? (As well as giving credence to the old misclamenture "You fight UFC bro?")?

Style is not a single movement, it is the choice of combinations of movement. I can identify karate from capoiera because from an identical original stance they typically choose a different pattern of movements. i.e. If Karate is the Lindy Hop, the Capo is a Swing dance. So, MMA is not a style because within the set of rules that limit the tools I can bring (no elbows to head etc), I can bring any style/dance I choose in order to achieve a "win" (knock out, points for tds or strikes, etc) according to the points rule set. Edited after reading the comments: I agree with ScottT.

My thinking is, for example in tennis there are certain techniques you get taught as correct or optimal but it has nothing to do with scoring. Maybe if someone uses an incorrect technique they will develop some issues with the joints eventually but if they win they win.

MMA is styles vs styles. Mixed bags of styles vs other mixed bags. That's what I love about it. U learn as many styles as u can to excel in MMA. It's the age old "My style's better than your style" only unltd styles r allowed & the technician using them also makes them different as in how he implements them & also what his strengths r. Cardio, chin, heart, creativity, athleticism etc. I suppose if u train at an MMA gym, it's simply a way to utilize different styles in real life or cage fight where u aren't being hindered by specific rule sets like say jiu jitsu where striking isn't allowed. Only an example, not shitting on jiu jitsu. It's very useful.

Did you not show Ramsey my video lol

So how is BJJ a discrete style from wrestling or Judo or Sambo? The only real difference between the four is what moves are legal, what uniforms you wear and what gets points. If you saw a match of any of those without uniforms or a rule framework, you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.

Ryan Hall is a perfect example for what Ramsey was talking about. Find me another Ryan Hall in MMA.

To clarify, throwing an opponent off of the Lei Tai awards points (3 I think), however, if you throw the opponent off of the Lei Tai 3 times in a single round, then you win. You can also win by decision, knockout, or TKO. I haven't ever heard of a ten time rule, even for Sanshou, let alone Lei Tai. Another thing to note is that the platform is very big, probably a little more than a boxing ring and a half in size. Teeping someone consecutively that many times and them not moving to the side or countering the kick, or taking you down a single time is very unlikely, especially since Lei Tai and Sanda people tend to be very good at catching kicks, and Lei Tai people in particular have pretty good ring awareness. In fact, if you watch the fights, you'll actually notice that it's pretty rare for someone to go off the platform even a single time, let alone three times in a single round. If you want to read about the rules for Lei Tai and Sanshou, the USKSF website gives a lot of information about that.

I think in One Muay Thai or kick boxing, they would fight with MMA gloves and in an MMA octagon. With the change in gloves alone, the fighters started to adapt their guard since MMA gloves are considerably smaller than boxing gloves. The fight looks almost similar to an MMA match with no ground grappling

What is with the moveset of cagework that is more or less unique to MMA?

It is a style but it’ll depend on the fighter. Say I had my son sign up to a MMA class at 6 years old, I let him learn everything until he’s 18 that’s allowed in the western cage rules. He is only allowed to go to “mma” gyms. Wouldn’t he be considered a mma style fighter? Or would we break down what we learn and instead say we trained him in Boxing, Jujitsu, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Kickboxing etc? Even amongst pros, They are usually categorized as - - - specialists. It’s already assumed people will mix things up. We also know that you will miss out on many “in style rules” and cultures that are distinct to their respective gyms. My hypothetical son can say he trained in boxing, Muay Thai etc, But he missed out on the big city urban boxing culture, the nak Muay culture, the wai kru, the belts in BJJ, etc.

I would say the limiting factor in MMA are what techniques have a high percentage of working, which in turn HAS created a style of MMA. Nobodies swinging tai Kwon do kicks when they're pressed against a cage. Cage fighting looks similar in most matches because it's now a style

MMA has kinda turned into it's own style. Most MMA gyms you go to teach the same thing. You'll probably learn a little bit of Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. It's basically it's own fighting style now.

@user-fk8tr5ev8q

2 ай бұрын

no it's not, it's a mix of styles you even implied it

@5koby4

2 ай бұрын

@@user-fk8tr5ev8q Nope

The definition of Style is a manner or way of doing something - MMA is a sport with a definite manner or way of doing things based on a few martial styles including grappling and submissions and striking - the rules push MMA into a style whether you like it or not - the majority of MMA gyms focus on grappling submission, boxing, Muay Thai or some variation of Kick Boxing - the sport has created this "style" for use in an MMA ring out of those other "styles". If the rules change the style of MMA fighting will also change to fit those rules. You could categorize MMA gyms as teaching different flavors of MMA akin to how Boxing gyms teach different flavors of boxing - Philadelphia and New York Boxing are examples of the variations of boxing styles but both are boxing - Im sure you will find variations in MMA depending on the gym or trainers you work with.

I totally get this! MMA is a framework of emerical testing and application.

You can say that mma is more like a concept. How you chose to integrate and execute techniques is your style. Style can either be a predetermined set of moves, a rule set within that "art" if you would, or the way it's predominantly or contemporarily executed within an organization or any group on an individual level.

I wouldn’t say it’s a style as there’s too much range in how an MMA can fight, if you see 10 karate fighters in something like wkf, their style will be the mostly the same. However, mma fighters can be strikers, grapplers, wrestlers etc. It’s like thinking of a species, if there is too much of a difference then the individuals (in this case the mma fighters) are not part is the species in question (mma).

Styles are made by their limitations. There is a real disadvantage in “training in mma” because the lack of limitations don’t allow you to increase a particular skill. A karate guy might never learn how to kick if he has to be constantly worried about being tackled. A boxer might never learn boxing distances if he’s constantly worried about being kicked while out of range of a taller mans jab. Having an excellent ability to box or kick would not be a disadvantage, but it is difficult to train in any direction if you have no starting points. Limitations really allow a style to develop and increase a certain skill elaborately. You could argue that elaborate and nuanced motions are ineffective in “real” combat but I think that the nuance of martial arts is the real tool that they offer.

Do you really need rules? People usually have the same idea of who won a fight without knowing about rules. Wouldnt a really simple rule system focused on damage dealt vs damage taken/neglected and then knockouts be what is most realistic and fun?

I like do think in MMA as a martial concept

So I watched it again (still a very good talk) almost a year later and I think MMA is a... Style! An inclusive one and hybrid, but defiantly a style with sub-styles. UFC, Bellator, One FC (which is the best in my opinion), etc, are all sub-styles of MMA with their own set of rules. All the fighters in these contests have a good understanding of striking (usually via Muay Thai) and grappling (usually via BJJ); If they know anything else that could add to their game like boxing, wrestling, water polo or yoga - amazing! If not, it does not matter. BJJ and Muay Thai are also the basic standards of any MMA gym, some add full-contact karate, boxing, samba, etc. but the Thai Brazilian duo are the most effective combat sports in their field since the sport of MMA has incepted almost 30 years ago. So, saying MMA is a style hurts your soul, I guess you could say MMA is a hybrid grappling-striking combat sport based mostly on BJJ and Muay Thai. Right? but style is shorter.

So basically in styles you trace a movements and technique. Then in mma you create your own custom style. So its still a style but a unique style.

can you post the whole conversationm

@SenseiSeth

3 жыл бұрын

It’s all been posted

I would like to address one of Ramsey deweys comments the ibjjf isn't really the most popular rule set unfortunately it has a lot of high-level competitors and I believe that's why a lot of people do it a lot of people do not really care for the ibjjf rule sets

From what it sounds like, you guy's agree that MMA is as much a style as your very specific signature on a drawn line on a chalkboard?

I feel a little silly trying to quibble w/ Ramsey Dewey, Icy Mike, and Sensi Seth (though the latter seems to be more agnostic on the point than the aforementioned)---but I'm a silly man! I wonder if that the debate actually concerns the differences between combat sports and traditional martial arts; and the ambivalence ppl feel regarding the 'other' side of the fence. It's difficult to suffer much confusion discerning between a mauy thai match, a wrestling match, or a mma fight. It's also equally as clear that ppl doing chi-sao, competing in karate point-fighting, or a forms competition are also equally distinct from each other--while each conforming to a particular rule set. Having said all this, i do acknowledge the general openness of MMA--particularly as contrasted with the 'rules' doing chi-sao---makes it seem counter-intuitive, even disrespectful, to declare it a style. Perhaps it's best thought as the style of no-style (bruce lee on JKD i think?). In any event, I feel a bit less certain about my position but can't get past the idea that we can easily discern between mma, judo, or tang so do karate.

Would it be more accurate to say it’s not a style YET? MMA is basically cross training between different styles, usually grappling and striking, but with gyms teaching this cross training routine, you can tell by the movement that someone is cross trained in striking and grappling most times because the hybrid stance they tend to take. Hands up like stringing but slightly bent for grappling also. At least that’s what I see.

MMA is like a grocery store with all different foods but instead it is with a lot of different types of martial arts

Meanwhile, in the background, the mob is like: FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

A style implies that there is a shared methodology of training or technique and tradition. MMA isn’t a style YET, but one day it may develop into one. That’s just my view on it but I think that after a few more decades there will be a base MMA style that just covers the generalizations of the basics of every aspect of MMA.

I think a lot of sport related daytrippers in the general public tend to get confused by the distinction between MMA (the overarching term for the sport), and BJJ (a specific style currently enjoying the most dominance in said sport). It's similar to the sort of confusion some people have distinguishing between say, Bandages (a general term for a topical wound dressing) and Bandaids (a specific brand name of household bandages) in casual speech. It's not just semantics, but people blur the distinction anyway, because we humans have an innate general tendency towards laziness and imprecision when we communicate - especially online. I'll stop there, because anytime I start blathering about philology or epistemology, I can FEEL the dislike heating up from all sides ... and I forgot my sunscreen today. 🤪

We should get master wong in on every video with ramsay

In the early 70's, Bruce Lee closed down a bulk of his Jeet Kune Do schools in America. Why? Because he saw what was happening to his own training methodology, it was becoming stiff, rigid, and static, just like most styles of his day. Bruce Lee had a vision that JKD is where you go to develop your own personalized fighting style in a way that suits your strengths and needs, some people are well-rounded strikers, some grapplers, some do sweeps, some takedowns, some guys are more punch heavy, some more kick heavy, some are more suited for long distance, some short distance, JKD was there to help develop fighters in that sense. What ended up happening was it all became glorified celebrity impersonations, except they only did one celeb: Bruce Lee. Every move had to be exactly like Bruce Lee in order to be effective. Bruce Lee saw this, and realize that he had to save Jeet Kune Do from becoming a style, something he didn't want. JKD was intended to be a training methodology. I fear the same thing is gonna happen to MMA, and why I want to stop it from happening. The debate shouldn't be if MMA is a style or not, the debate is why it SHOULDN'T be a style. I can think of three main reasons: * Stagnation - Since almost every "MMA gym" is just BJJ + MT essentially, I worry it's gonna be awfully limited to just that. They'll teach you to ground fight effectively, but give you some sub-par striking or vice-versa. Even worse, it could just be Wrestle-boxing with the occasional kick. Then once someone does a Karate or Sanda Lead Side kick, a Taekwondo Tornado Kick, or a Sambo-style leg submission, then that's "no longer MMA." Instead it's the next MMA-like thing that's got all the Muay-Jitsu moves and more. * The way of teaching - There's a reason why MMA gyms are in a certain structure. You have multiple instructors, some teach wrestling, some teach BJJ, some teach Kickboxing. If you did all that at once, what's the first day of class? Is it gonna be "Okay, today we're gonna be doing one-two, then shoot." You have to teach all aspects of fighting in one class, too heavy on the information for beginners. That's why some MMA fighters specialize in one thing first, then round out their skills later on. * Competition with other Hybrid Martial Arts - If MMA becomes a style, it's got competition with other styles where there is striking and grappling. Beofre UFC 1, there was Jeet Kune Do, Sanda, Kudo, Shootboxing, Yoseikan Budo, Wado Ryu Karate, Pankration, Sambo, ARB, Yongmudo, Kajukenbo, Vale Tudo, Yaw Yan, the point goes on. Good luck with all that, they all prove themselves and probably do a hell of a lot better in teaching how to fight in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts way better too. I want MMA to survive, and be around for the next century, maybe even millennia. That's why if we stop it from becoming so rigid and stylized, and instead becoming a sport of martial arts, it'll be around.

MMA is a frame for people who are already versed in multiple styles. Learning directly "MMA" is also arguably worse than learning some specific styles of striking/grappling (possibly from different specialized teachers) and only then harmonizing them together into your MMA repertoir. That's why it's annoying to hear "MMA is better than this, MMA is better than that", it's apples to oranges.

MMA IS ABSOLUTELY A STYLE. Modern mma must be trained specifically. The stance, takedowns, strikes are all slightly different from the origin sports. They must be learned that way for success in the sport.

@rivermoore6179

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly the techniques they use are only specifically tailored for MMA .

It’s like calling electric guitar a genre of music, it’s just a tool to create the music. MMA isn’t a style, it’s just a set of rules or tool to create the fight. You can do whatever you want within the MMA ‘laws’ per se. At least that is my logic on it

First I hear Ramsey talking about the subject, then Seth, and then both debating about it? what kind of luxury service is this?