He probably means their anger makes them aggressive and easy to lure into trap and exhaustion.

The jedi were arguably not pre old republic. However l, when Luke formed the New Jedi Order, they certainly were. Luke embraced the jedi needing emotions and battle if necessary. Something the old republic jedi didn't abide. This was evident when the Vong war came into play. The jedi needed to be battle hardened then. And also in the Jedi/Sith Imperial War. The jedi, thanks to Luke, were not as weak as before. Luke Skywalker in the EU was the Luke I loved.

@jamiewatt8532

Ай бұрын

i do think jedi were just better in combat generally over the sith, because recklessness, arrogance and exhaustion are dangerous enemies that can undo the very best...assuming the jedi can withstand the onslaught till then. but i absolutely agree luke's jedi were head and shoulders better than both the old jedi and sith. reading the flow of the force and both their own and enemies emotions all at once while balancing calm defense and open aggression would have been a massive improvement over the single focus that came before. this all gets well shown in the vong war. luke's order of a few hundred does what several thousand jedi would struggle to do previously.

Obiwan is like a tank with his lightsaber form. Dude could block and parry like someone playing Dark Souls.

@TerminatorGundam300

Ай бұрын

I asked this of a number of other fans. Who is the better practitioner of Form III? O I-Wan or Darth Bane? Darth Bane blocked rain with his lightsaber

@andrewfornes5320

Ай бұрын

@@TerminatorGundam300 Honestly, probably Bane. He also had a hilt very similar to Count Dooku's which most likely made it quicker and easier to flip around than the normal hilts. On top of that, I believe at one point he also had an almost pseudo-armor from a type of bug-crab thing that latched onto his body. They were removed somehow but, I think they added a bit more defense if he needed it whilst having them.

@TerminatorGundam300

Ай бұрын

@@andrewfornes5320 from what I understand, Darth Bane got into Form III because he lost his Orbelisk Armor. The bugs were lightsaber proof, but were vulnerable to Force Lightning

@frasergibson5763

Ай бұрын

And yet, he loses just about every lightsaber duel he’s in? The exceptions being when he killed Grievous, defeated Anakin and defeated Maul as a Padawan before even using Soresu? All those were in the films. He loses pretty much all duels he has in TCW

@altairtheeagle

Ай бұрын

@@frasergibson5763 Obi-Wan was 2nd ONLY to Yoda, He "killed" Maul and Vader TWICE and smoked General Grievous

It is possible that emotions may overwhelm the fighter leading to laps in judgment however it is possible if they limit and sculpt said emotion, they can use said emotion to perhaps overwhelm a Jedi so I would say both points are valid. It depends on the fighters and the environment.

@mel-c

Ай бұрын

@rob Yep, that's what happened to Anakin

@nicholaswion846

Ай бұрын

I think Luke's point was that if the Sith in question has the power and skill necessary to overwhelm their Jedi opponent, then it will happen quickly right at the onset of battle, if not, then in a long and drawn out battle, it is the Jedi which has the advantage.

@rickpickledric7096

Ай бұрын

I feel if u where calm like obi won with his battle with anakin and focused u be able to win and not cloud ur mine

"The Sith outgrew the use of lightsabers but we continue to use them if only to humiliate the Jedi."

@BenAri18

Ай бұрын

That's the irony, the Sith started relying on the force more, which Luke was vastly superior at than any sith

@TheLuconic

Ай бұрын

As they say. Fearing the best Jedi duelists and have to use cheap means to best a Jedi.

I don't think it's a rule. I mean Luke in the Legacy era managed to impose himself even against entities like Abeloth, but from what I know about sith like Tulak Hord i think the ancient sith are in a entirely new level. They were warlike and very very powerful.

What he says should be true. Angry fighting is tense, slow, and draining. In the context of Star Wars, I don't think it's reflected well. Luke is talking sense in a nonsensical world.

If there was a Faction that could win against the Ancient Sith it would definitely be Legends Luke’s New Jedi Order

Hey a shoutout to Darth Marr here, nice.

@tadhggoreyoneill13666

Ай бұрын

Tulak Hord would disagree with Luke

@SkinnyEatWorld95

Ай бұрын

Darth Marr!

_Peace_ does not win a fight. _Emotion_ does not win a fight. *Power* wins a fight. It does not matter where you draw your power from. What does matter is whether your power here and now is superior to that of your opponents or not.

Luke is flat out wrong about jedi being better light saber duelists than the Sith. Light saber duelists should be taken on a case by case basis, unlike the generalization Luke made.

I would like to approach this dialogue from the perspective of a martial artist. I hold a black belt in a variation of Taekwando, and I am self-taught in Boxing. First, I would point out that you are "guilty" (and I do not use that word as insult) of the same bias you accuse of Luke, your examples are either A) Fallen Jedi with years or decades of Jedi training or B) extremely powerful sith lords in their prime who have all the wisdom and power to prevent themselves from geting swept up "in the storm" as you so well put it. I HAVE competed in Full-Contact fights in both arts I am trained in and I can say, maintaining a calm head is ESSENTIAL. Fighting off emotions is not only sloppy, but tiring. Technique suffers, and because of that your strikes require MORE energy to deliver the same impact. I ultimately WON a fight by doing this exact strategy. I withstood a bombardment of punches through evasive and defensive skills, he got angry that he wasn't doing the damage he THOUGHT he should be doing. He got Angry, and then sloppy. He started putting more effort into his strikes in an attempt to deliver more power, and telegraphed them as a result. Three rounds went on like this. On the scorecards, he was winning every round. The fourth round however, his anger failed him, by then he had burned out his energy and could barely keep his gloves up to defend himself let alone punch me. The referee stopped the fight 2 minutes and 37 seconds into the 4th round and I won by TKO So yes I believe Luke was correct. Jedi are superior dualists for this very purpose. Sure a Sith CAN win a fight by ending it quickly, and there will always be outliers that defy norms and as stated there is no best technique, or style. And this is NOT a disrespect to the Sith of this community, but a cautionary warning, discipline your rage, control it, do not let IT control you.

@Anotherhumanbean12345

Ай бұрын

Sith lords were masters of flow, jedi masters refused emotion, and were controlled by their desire to control their emotions. thats why so many jedi masters turned into sith but not vice versa. You won that fight because of strategy, not because the "dude got angy". your style is quite literally a counter style. had it been him that won, your story would have more weight. because all the odds are stacked on your side. its a sure bet. anybody who knows fighting can understand that.

@Cen2050

Ай бұрын

@@Anotherhumanbean12345 I respectfully, if only partially, disagree with both your points, partially due to my poor explanation. Regarding the Sith that were "masters of the flow" those that WERE able to use and control their emotions in equal measure were absolutely terrifying to be sure. But these are outliers OR a result of the Rule of Two era reaching it's proverbial zenith. Regarding my own boxing experience I appear to have mislead you unintentionally. I am very much a brawler, however thanks to my martial arts background I am a SMART brawler who was able to adjust my strategy on the fly because I was calm, and collected. I was able to maintain situational awareness and analytical skills in the midst of a high-intensity environment. And I do not profess to be GOOD at boxing or Martial Arts, I am average at best I propose we take a step back and look at the "average" Jedi and Sith, Those that are only fairly experienced and middling in power. Force Wielder the likes of Yoda, Vader, Kenobi or Dooku would literally WALK over. In an engagement like that I maintain the Jedi wins 8 our of 10 duals SPECIFICALLY because they are trained to remain collected and dispassionate. Where the Sith are taught to be the opposite. The fire that burns twice as hot burns half as long. Emotions are a GREAT source of motivation, and even strength, but they burn hot and fast. Either you run out of rage, your body can't maintain the exertion, or you get sloppy and make a mistake.

Fun fact, due to Sir Christopher Lee being a real fencer, Dooku's form II is the only lightsaber style that has a direct real life counterpart. Also the reason for Palpatine's crazy looking form was because the actor had little preparation and no training.

One thing pointed out between Superman and Ultraman (his evil Earth-3 counterpart) is that the former is a better fighter because he allows his enemies to live. This allows them to return stronger or better prepared, forcing Superman to become even better against them. Ultraman generally murders his enemies in the first fight, depriving himself an opportunity to later grow when confronted with them again. While The Jedi usually kill any Sith they come across, I could imagine them being more merciful to some other enemies, reaping a similar benefit later.

I’d say it’s because the Sith are too reliant on their Force abilities, that’s why. Many Sith love the destruction their Force abilities give.

@frankdees507

Ай бұрын

True. Sith don’t spent as much time practicing lightsaber technique as they do various force techniques. The sith usually have a goal of arriving at the point in their training where all they need is the darkside itself

@ketamineheadyoda2248

Ай бұрын

​@@frankdees507not only this. Fighting with anger results in sloppy technique.

@darth.dominus.the.savage

Ай бұрын

​@@ketamineheadyoda2248not necessarily true, would you sith like sidious, tulak hord, exar kun just to name a few were sloppy?

Legends Luke, and Luke prior to Rian’s abomination is so great.

@Tocaraca

Ай бұрын

Rian's Luke was great IMO. He came back and did what he needed to do in the end. They just killed him off too early.

@steveosborn7224

Ай бұрын

@@Tocaraca are you familiar with legends at all? He was great in legends and loved a much better life. He did so much more.

@Tocaraca

Ай бұрын

@@steveosborn7224 "Legends" was never official. It's fanfiction. I am familiar with some of it but not much.

@Loki.Lyesmyth

Ай бұрын

To true fans "legends" will always be canon and DSW is really bad fan fiction.

@Tocaraca

Ай бұрын

@@Loki.Lyesmyth "true fans" lmfao

I can just see Luke being transported to old republic times and then just getting bullied by Malgus

‘Don't use standardized attack, use the unorthodox’ Said Court Dooku to General Grivious.

It's hard to draw a conclusion, when most lightsaber duels don't have both combatants wanting to kill each other or die trying. Usually, at least one of them either wants to escape or turn the other to their side of the force.

I believe it's a matter of lenght/duration of combat. One who focus in agression and dominance spends more of their energy reserves. If two equally skilled warriors, a jedi and a sith, engaged in a long fight, they who conserved more of their energy would win in the long run, and we know that, most comonly, the sith are the ones focused in agression. It's, however, only my opinion, and I believe that someone with more experience in martial arts would many more arguments (and of more quality) to defend one side or the other. Sorry for my bad english, I'm in a hurry, but didn't want to pospone writing a comment, as I'm sure I would forget to do so

Tulak Hord: Am I a joke to you?

I would argue the jedi are better all around duelists because they're also fighting not to kill and have to be very careful specifically to disarm their opponent. That kind of handicap I think really emphasizes the overall skill the jedi would need in a duel, especially against someone who is just trying to kill you by any means necessary.

Love your videos man

I do find it ironic that Luke hated Darth Bane since they a both portrayed by the same person.

Fun bit of trivia: Mark Hamill voiced Bane’s spirit in The Clone Wars when Yoda encountered him.

Cold rage has its uses

If anger and hatred are the very emotions that grants you peace, then you can find tranquility or even harmony within the fury of combat and bloodshed. It is an irony of sort that strife itself is the epitome of reasonable peace.

Darth Sidious, Plagueis , revan, and Malgus would destroy most of the Jedi knights in the order.

Depends on the force user's skill and talents

I would love to see a video comparing Darth Revan to Mace Windu since they both have purple lightsabers

The factors I see playing in to determine a lightsaber duel are 1) attack power[AP] 2) defense power[DP] 3) speed/agility 4) stamina and 5) battle IQ. 1 & 3 can be hugely influenced by species and physical build and to some extent 5 as well for some of the more long lived species since battle iq is almost entirely dependent on experience. 1, 2 and 4 are all heavily determined by which form is used. 1, 2, 3 and 4 can also vary depending on the force abilities of the user as well. As far as alignment playing into to it I see it as more of the dark side gives a buff to physical abilities where as the light trends more towards mental and stamina buffs. But it's all just a big game of rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock where form 2 beats form 3 which beats form 5 which beats form 2, no one knows what the hell forms 4 or 7 are doing and form 1 is for noobs. And despite all that a master of form 1 can wipe the floor with someone who just kind of knows bits and pieces of all 7 forms but isn't really specialized in any of them. The overall point being plot determins the winner 10/10 times

Cool 😎 video bro

Peace of mind, technique and skill will always triumph over emotional anger and hate. The war of the mind is where you win or lose

Every time you do one of these, I wonder if the Sith are spinning in their graves at the thought of this Jedi scrawling notes all over their writings.

A very wise man once said that true focus lies somewhere between rage and serenity.

That's an interesting opinion for Luke to have, because in Dark Empire, he faces a young Palpatine who literally toyed with Luke, and to prove a point, he took Luke's hand again.

Jedi are not dedicated to their objective in the republic era, it's what made Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan stand out from the rest, and yet rage did befall Savage and Maul and others too - these were their challenges, but not their fates. It was Obi-Wans own anger and rage that led to his masters death after all.

I still think that it's case by case. I've come up against two Muay Thai artists, five American kickboxers, over thirty American Kempo artists, and more Isshin-ryu & Bushin-Kai Karate fighters, Taekwondo fighters, & boxers than I care to count. And every single one of them was different. Some were better in their fighting style and gave me a challenge while others were easy to beat. Keep in mind that these were traditional martial artists and not hybridized fighters.

I believe that a Jedi can feel Joy, pleasure!, and even confidence when engaging in battle. Likewise, I know that sith feel schadenfreude and epicuricacy along with passion. While I love the concept of meditating using Joy, Harmony, and secret passion. In a fight, especially against a weaker opponent, I could see how arrogance and pride could lead to channeling of the dark side. Especially when caught off guard by someone lesser, leading to anger. Like when Luke struck Vader on the shoulder and anger immediately fueled Vader. However, I believe that a Jedi with enough control over his/ her emotions can feel some sort of delight in sportsmanship when sparring. They can definitely calm themselves and bolster their courage using the light side of the force.

I believe in the case of the sith…that it depends upon the source of where they draw their rage. The stonger the scar the deeper the connection to the darkside. However, the deeper the connection, the harder it will be to keep it under control, and that is where the sith almost always loose.

It’s like all sports. Sure anger gets you power and adrenaline but balance equals technique and skill. You can’t be angry while cooking a five course meal. Or handling heavy machinary

Has nothing to do with the video but the link for the merch isn’t working

Dooku was such a lethal duelist because he largely retained his Jedi focus & balance.

Windu vs sidous the greatest Sith ever ,lost… Obi-one vs Anakin , Ben beat him twice Luke vs Vader Maul vs Ben Yoda vs duko I know my spelling is not good

@alfredoconsalsa

Ай бұрын

i thought the senate lost on purpose as a way to convert anakin to darkside by forcing him to choose to kill windu in order to save padme

I completely agree. It depends on the case. Some Sith are extraordinary powerful and skillful in lightsaber combat. All you mentioned! Sith deserve respect for this. I understand why Luke felt like this. He didn't have information. He had Obi-Wan's diary,his teachings,Yoda's teachings too. Some Jedi holocrons. Not enough. He was very innocently biased. May the Force be with you too😊Have a great day too😊

Probably because anger can trigger you fight or flight nature even more & of course the darkside would fight, probably with tunnel vision and blinded by fury... easily to lead into a counter attack when someone is just raging.

I think it ultimately boils down to the relationship between the weapon and the wielder. When the wielder is also the weapon, or when the weapon and wielder are one, Luke has the correct take. However, if the weapon and the wielder are not as one, then the debate can safely begin.

I agree with Luke here. Just like how in real life you must maintain the Peace even when fighting as when you lose it you lose the fight. This does not mean some can not use thier anger while at peace . It is doable but harder.

I believe it is case by case, as with anything else. Skill and talent know no allegiance to a side of the Force.

Haven't watched yet. If I had to guess, it would be because the Jedi do not believe in using the force as a weapon against the living. Even against droids they would question your heart consider it disturbing if you did something like a "force crush" and so they trained far more diligently with the blade and centering one's self into the force and the balancing therein. While the sith are almost totally the opposite and believe in using their gifts in the force to dominate everyone and everything around them, and so, used their saver prowess as a means to an end. Even after everything, Bane struggled against a few Jedi of his time, relying heavily on his bug armor (in no small part due to the style he chose to use while dawning it, more of a berserker) and he easily dispatched the best duelist the BoE had. Bane was a bit of a freak, very obsessive, focused and driven, more of an exception in a lot of ways, but I think that he kind of showed in that moment that even if the sith DO focus on lightsabers, something about trying to control the force instead of allowing it to guide your blade leaves you very much at the will of it in the end. Thank you for coming to my TEDtalk 😅 prove me wrong, I love discussing

Don't make that mistake with #DarthTonder👍🏼... He does not seek duel and he will not back off once cornered... He also came in possession of #TDBank💳 card in his quest as a #SithLord🤳🏼... 🌎💘💰

Malgus was definitely one of my favorite duelists, killed one grand master, Satele's master, and he had Satele herself dead to rights on at least two separate occasions and she only survived because someone else saved her.

The ancient sith would disagree

@MichaelMcMoron

Ай бұрын

They became rage obsessed autists around the old republic era.

@marcusbrown8036

Ай бұрын

Especially Maul

@marcusbrown8036

Ай бұрын

I know he’s not an ancient Sith, but he’s one of the skilled lightsaber duelist, even for a Sith

@jacobheckman1444

Ай бұрын

They were at peace nevertheless in combat

@3claresa

Ай бұрын

The ancient sith are dead lmaoooooo

Didn't Kanobi as a padawan channel the darkside after witnessing the death of Qui-Gon? So even though he was still a Jedi, Kanobi would of "fought as a sith" for but a brief movement to strengthen his powers, such as speed and precision until he could jump out and cut Maul in half?

Tulok horde proves he's wrong😂😂I'd respectfully disagree.

I think Luke meant saying the dark side isn't as strong because with peace and light, you can get perfect defensive and wait for the angry pride of the dark side to slip up. Just like Kenobi waiting for Anakin to slip up with his dark side arrogance and then maiming him. And I say that as someone who loves the Sith.

@The Stupendous Wave Unless you think there are other sith that would outduel sidious mace or Yoda.

Idk🤔maybe on average grunt or low level sith,,,but Tulak hord is the greatest Duelist in the Entire mythos! 😵, Exar Kun,Malgus,ajunta,Ragnos,kkRevan,malek,maul,nadd, plagues,bane,zanna, all amazing duelists

I personally believe it all depended on who the dualist was and the circumstances and remember any given Sunday anything can happen.

I think there's an additional factor here. Luke's own duels against Vader gave him personal experience in the matter, in both cases he lost his cool towards the end of the duel and with it, much of his technique. Of course, that was the point at which landed his first hit on Vader on Bespin, and outright overpowered him on the Death Star II, but from Luke's perspective I could see his view being that he lost his cool, his technique slipped, and he didn't get the outcome he'd intended going into the fight. Or that he only won the second time because he'd become powerful enough to overpower Vader, and an equal would have been able to hold against his assault. In either case, if that were to be his belief then I think he wouldn't be giving himself enough credit, but it can't be denied that at least at the time of the trilogy, he simply doesn't have his father's battle focus. When Luke lost his cool he fought harder. When Anakin lost his cool, he fought better.

@Anotherhumanbean12345

Ай бұрын

vader didnt wanna kill is son. bias Luke didn't wanna kill his father. bias try again

@CyarSkirata

Ай бұрын

@@Anotherhumanbean12345 Vader didn't want to kill Luke. Fair point. Did I ever say he did? Regardless of Vader's objectives in either fight, he was still fighting to achieve those objectives. He still had defenses for Luke on the Death Star to overpower. Luke didn't want to kill Vader the second time. Correct. Hence: when he overpowered Vader and came pretty close to killing him, he was working against the objective he came into the fight with. As I said. If there's bias in that, I'd love to know where, but I'm not seeing it.

I think what Luke is saying that jedi should always triumph evantually against a enemy of comparable strentgh. We have plenty example of weaker jedi beating stronger sith. And all the kills from sith i can remember are against weaker enemies (correct me if i am wrong here). Its just that there are far more mediocre jedi with relevance in the story than mediocre darksiders. I also dont think its a rule but its fair as a tendency.

He's PERSONALLY felt the power of Sith Masters like Sideous. I wonder though IF his clearly biased opinion would be changed IF he'd had to fight Sideous an IF he was aware of just how lethal Sideous was with either 1 or 2 Sabers.. an he might not be so biased to the likes of Bane or say Darth Revan, etc IF he'd had to dual 1 of them.. fighting his father an some other Darksiders is 1 thing.. Fighting the likes of Bane or Sideous I'm pretty sure Luke would find is quite another

@jakealter5504

Ай бұрын

He has fought sidious in lightsaber combat, it happened in dark empire

@robertagu5533

Ай бұрын

@jakealter5504 heard that narrated too. Though Luke's STILL being VERY Biased. He's got only faintest idea of just how potentially lethal the Likes of the Ancients like Bane an Revan TRULY was. Luke thought he was gonna die in the OT just from Palpatines Lightning. He KNOWS Sideous ISNT the sorta Sith to EVER take lightly an assume ISNT the absolute BEST. It's a bit arrogant even dangerous to assume even a common criminal COULDN'T beat an take even Master Luke in his prime. An he of all should know better. Often even in real life THAT is when it happens to such Legends an just regular fighters even. The assumption that those considered way lesser CANT or WONT perform differently as expected. This Lore is full of examples Luke should known or found out about so his assumptions an opinions are also like narrated full of bias an assumption if not outright flawed. Even Obi an Yoda probably would warned of this danger knowing better then him

I thought the 7th lightsaber forme was Vaapad? 1:15-1:20

No one tell him about Tulak Hord. There's also this one guy named "Darth Vader" or something but he might be too obscure for Luke to know about

The argument that losing control makes you lose combat is valid. But you can feel angry without losing control. If you manage that you get the amp without any drawbacks. Professional fighters often are wary of untrained fighters because they can lash out with such enormous aggression and strength. Their unconventional movement on top of that makes them very dangerous. The way to defeat such a fighter is by weathering the storm and stay composed until they tire out. Much like Obi-Wan did.

Interesting

Both jedi and sith were great a lightsaber duels. both manage to switch things up when needed to confuse their opponents.

The biggest argument that comes to mind for me is (and my knowledge is far from perfect), are there many times where Sith were the underdogs and won a fight? Any surprise Sith wins? I'd say Obi Wan defeating Maul was a huge surprise, Obi Wan defeating Vader both times, Mace Windu beating Palpatine, Luke beating Vader. You could have arguments on these cases, but I'd just say there are many times where the Jedi were elavated in fights while I don't know about the same for the Sith.

I think both of what you said

I feel like both Jedi and Sith emphasize skill a great deal but with Sith I would say they use much more of the force in a combative sense while a Jedi would use the force to only sharpen their senses Sith focus on power Jedi focus on awareness look no further than obi wan and anakins duel on mustafar or even the good count dooku and yoda on geonosis. The good count as you say added more aggression to his form but for yoda who uses the 4th form he was focused on his surroundings where to jump when to apply pressure and when to fall back. Both of these tactics will only get you so far in certain situations it’s simply another example of the yin Yang relationship between Jedi and Sith “A Jedi only uses the force for knowledge and defense never attack” ~Yoda lmk what y’all think

There is a saying in when it comes to close combat, "those who fight angry are slopy" jedi are better lightsabet duelist because they are taught to stay cool and collected as part of jedi teachings so it pans out when it comes to lightsaber combat

'Always?' - Some Sith somewhere that just devastated a squad of Jedi knights

Thankfully Luke was battling Old Man Papaltine on the The Death Star. Had Luke went up a younger version of Papaltine, Papaltine would have defeated with Luke with lightsaber and then Electrocute hin.

Just want to say, it's bullshit that there's not an 'objectively' better way to do things, even if the judgement of so is subjective Just because something else is viable or someone might be able to put in enough time to make it work does not even mean its innately good Could get to the same point much faster with a different method or have many less vulnerabilities or anything else

i would say that from what i've heard least the clone wars jedi had made many rules for lightsaber combat which they were expected to follow even when in a life or death battle vs darkside users or similar extremely dangerous enemies such not allow to cut of limbs or slice them in two despite their and potentially others lives being on the line which to me indicates further evidence that the jedi had abandoned or forgotten how to fight kinda like how throughout history sometimes army commanders would send waves of their troops into machine gun fire or similar instead of using tactics all for the sack of honor also another thing is when you actually look at him critically sidious was actually a full sorcerer and he was probably one of the worst ruler class sith when it came to dueling given even at his strongest he still lost to luke who had likely only reached about the half way point in his development so even the greatest sith of the era wasn't exactly that powerful even you actually consider things like that. while many of the ancient sith even those who were like sidious, sorcerers and similar still realized the importance of saber training in combat to be quite important skill by clone wars+ eras even if that was their main field of training and the jedi from those same eras also were much more martial focused so hadn't allowed themselves to become complacient cause they couldn't they always knew or suspected that another major conflict was around the corner so always encouraged keeping their skill sharp and usually the most danger was from the sith who while on average they were equals against the exceptions tended to be noticeably more powerful then even the grandmasters of their order of the same time period by a noticeable and similar high ranking sith. like after his fight with satele malgus had a realization of some of his flaws which was when he became one of the most reknown jedi killers of all time. also its quite rare if any exist of jedis being stated to take on large amounts of sith at once where their is a ok amount sith who have such reputations.

Greetings! Exalted ones!

🎉

This debate could lean both ways here. But I am inclined to agree with Luke on this matter from a certain point of view (pun fully intended). Lightsaber Form 7: Juyo / Vapaad is forbidden for this very reason, because it is the most difficult and dangerous form that utilizes this very aspect, but puts the user at great risk in the process, leaving them vulnerable in the long run. If the duel is short, there is lower chance of the combatant losing focus. Whereas a drawn out fight they would definitely leave themselves vulnerable in that regard, whereby potentially sabotaging themselves as the fight drags on. I guess it boils down to training and the individual themselves, considering everyone is different. This is a controversial topic, so my opinion will be much the same in that regard. But I feel Luke is half right here. This would only affect those select few regardless of whether they are well trained or not. Others would be able to manage it better in the lengthier duels. At least, that's my take on it.

Darth bane was a great duelist.as was Sodious,and Vader.

Ancient sith were very powerfull and could never dominate all simply beecause at some point theyr hate blinded then, against enemys or theyr own aprentices...

That depends It’s true Jedi would focus on the saber than using Force ppowers as they believe they shoujd use their powers for defense than attack That’s why powers like Force Choke are considered Dark Side abilities More ancient Jedi would be blade masters. In the modern age, Dooku embodies that as he focused on dueling while most Jedi favored training agsinst blaster wielding foes And those like Anakin and Obi-Wan became blade masters due to their experiences fighting Sith Lords and Dark Jedi Sith would usually prefer using force powers to crush their foes But some ancient Sith Lords like Naga Sadow, Ludo Kresh, Marka Ragnos, Lord Vitiate, Exar Kun, Freedon Nad, Ulec Qel Droma, Darth Malak, Darth Malgus, Darth Revan are examples of prominent blade masters of their age, complimenting with their own godlike Force Powers In modern age though the Sith were adaptive, combining mastering of both arts to be ready to crush Jedi Even though Palpatine hated sabers. He nevertheless was one of the best blade masters living, only lost to Mace Windu due to his Vaapad fighting style, and rivaling Yoda to an arguable standstill And lost to Luke in Legends in his Clone Body Vader and Tyranus were Jedi that Carried their skills as Sith Lords Maul was a beast who was a blade master in his own way Luke was right that Jedi at their best are superb blade masters, as they focus on their obligation to the Lightsaber, and Sith usually prefer Force Powers over the blade. But again it depends

A properly balanced force-sensitive, i.e. someone that doesn't need massive amounts of therapy like every Sith and Jedi do, could put the Jedi and Sith to shame; being able to use the strengths of both while suffering none of their weaknesses would put them on another level above and beyond what either Order could ever hope to achieve on their own. "For every ray of light, there is a shadow; embrace both to find Balance."

Lightsaber forms are a lot like Pokémon types imo. One is more effective than another, but the stronger the person the less it matters. Water may be strong against fire, but a level 5 squirtle won’t beat a level 100 charizard

Any being going into the fight with the intention to kill has the advantage of a person who’s initial instinct is not to kill. After that y’all can debate

I can see where Luke was coming from. In general, if we're looking at a Jedi or Sith of similar skill level and physical conditioning in a pure 1 vs 1 situation, the Jedi generally comes out on top. Where the Sith generally wins, it's a mismatch. The Jedi that Maul defeated are generally significantly less conditioned for battle than Maul was. Sidious doctrine when it came to his students engaging the Jedi in combat was spelled out by Dooku in the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon. The Sith must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on their side. They must break the Jedi before they engage them. Otherwise, it would be advisable to retreat first and choose another opportunity to engage the Jedi. The Jedi are better duelist. But the Sith are better warriors and assassins. Jedi wins duels, but Sith wins battles.

@The Stupendous Wave if we compare sith to normal Jedi then no sith absolutely murder them in terms of lightsaber skill but if you take the best of the best from each I think Jedi have the edge. Sidious was the greatest sith to ever live skill and power wise but Yoda disarmed him of his saber and mace a weaker force user as you know created a Lightsaber form that allowed him to match and outduel a monster like sidious I feel like that should be enough to back up lukes statement.

Look at the battle with anakin and obi wan obi wad calm and focus clear mind and he was able to win so I think whoever was more focus on the battle and technique would win

I think he was correct on the theory and really identified the reason why many sith lost but he was very wrong on application. Sith, especially ancient sith were absolute beasts in combat and the power of the dark side allowed them to fight at a level inherently superior to the Jedi

There a saying that o heard from a pugilist online somewhere that goes " some people need to learn aggression and some people need to lern control." The best duelist are probably a balance of both. In general though who are they training to fight against? The Sith had always trained to fight Jedi, the Jedi usually believe the sith to be extinct and are probably train to deal with multiple scermishers and blaster wielding opponents. So on average I think sith are the better duelist because the have a reason to be.

@Eric6761

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That's one of the reasons Dooku and Assajj Ventress were great defeating Jedi, their makashi style were perfect for disrupting more common styles like forms 1 and 3 and even Yoda on books was said to question how necessary makashi was to even be taught

The thing is that in order to make the bad guys threatening they really have to disregard that rule. Having the bad guys lose in direct combat easily is a boring story. But it did work in rebels with Obi-Wan versus Maul.

Case by case basis, but defensive fighters tend to be the best fighters

@sleeper.simulant7327

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That’s because they outlast their opponents. Kenobi, Bane, and Malgus were all extremely proficient in defensive combat, although they varied it up a bit. Kenobi was obviously the least aggressive in terms of counter attacking in between defense. Bane and Malgus were not, they could hold up against a barrage of attacks then unleash extremely powerful counters in between. To generalize, Jedi are generally better all around duelists, and better at longer fights as they are, in general, less aggressive. There are outliers, such as Anakin and Aagen Kolar who were both very aggressive Djem So practitioners. Windu was a form 7 vapaad practitioner, a very aggressive form. Yoda and Qui Gonn both used offensive focused form 4, and Dooku uses offensive form 2. All mentioned were very offensive focused duelists who believed in ending fights as quickly as possible…

Wait until Exar kun pulls up

I think Luke was right, having peace would allow a jedi to fight with a clear mind, a sith could act irrationally when they fall victim to their emotions. Think about Anakin getting struck down on Mustafar

@user-wg9yh3jg4f

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Anakin didn't channel the darkness but was swept up and away by the darkness, thats y he lost

Luke v. Vader: Luke wins after using the Dark Side. Luke v. Sidious: Luke loses, doesn't stand a chance, Vader has to save him. Obi-Wan v. Maul round 1: Obi-Wan wins, but tapped into the Dark Side. Obi-Wan v. Maul round 2: Obi-Wan wins, opponent is already had lost half his body and Force potential. Anakin v. Dooku round 2: Anakin wins using the Dark Side. Obi Wan v. Anakin: Obi Wan wins by baiting his opponent and using a move that Jedi code forbids. Mace v. Sidious: Sidious throws fight. Sidious v. Yoda: Inconclusive. Revan v. Malak: Sith Lord defeated by former Sith Lord. Uliq Qel Droma v. Jedi: Sith Lord loses by getting mobbed. Exar Kun v. Jedi: Same. These are only some of the fights that come to mind. The Sith are on average far stronger 1v1 fighters and maby Jedi victories require numbers are breaking their own self-imposed rules.

Luke would have gotten bodied by Malgus. Malgus literally waltzed into the Jedi Temple and wrecked shop and walked out like it was cool. Then if he faced off with Revan he would have gotten beaten down rather quickly as well.

We have to judge Jedi and Sith on an individual basis. Some were crazy good.

Honestly, neither the Jedi nor the Sith were universally better than the other. Some eras, and in certain disciplines, one would do better, but the scales tipped frequently over time and space.

Considering how many Sith were Jedi and vice versa, I dont think it works like that. I think, just like martial arts, the ability lies in the individual and their discipline in training.

Toe to toe with Dooku is a bit of an overstatement. Doesn't really match up with Dooku at all

Sith Lords only used lightsabers to insult the jedi order. They were dedicated to the study of the force and the dark side rather than combat. They used their powers in the dark side to influence and corrupt living beings to follow their cause and that's how they were able to create their empires throughout galactic history. What many don't know about the dark side is that it empowered the basic force powers further, so after being trained in the dark side Sidious's force speed and force telekinesis were empowered further making him more powerful in the force. A jedi master can be better in combat than the Sith Lord but it won't help him if he cannot match the Sith Lord with the force. This is why I know Sidious would have been able to kill Mace in their duel if he wanted to as Yoda is the only one who can match Sidious with the force.